2Bobs—with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

Blair thinks too many design firms and other service providers are trying too hard to raise prices by presenting themselves as more "strategic." Both he and David see these agencies losing more and more work to competitors moving to off-shore teams and AI centered services. Links Blair's "What Is Strategy?" episode of the Ditching Hourly podcast with Jonathan Stark

David definitely doesn't want anyone to be like tech bros, but he has recognized a few things creative agencies might be able to learn from them.

Blair has five steps creative agency leaders can take to turn their account managers, project managers, developers, engineers, and advisors into a source of instant scale to their sales efforts. LINKS "Turning Your Delivery Team Into a Sales Team" article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com

Whether you call yourself an advisor or consultant (or not), David has seven core ethical principles that should govern advisory work. LINKS "Advising Clients Ethically" article on Punctuation.com

The fact that sales people tend to talk too much is nothing new, but Blair has observed in recent client work just how profound of an effect this pervasive problem has on sales outcomes. Links "How and When to Talk About Your Firm" "Replacing Presentations With Conversations"

When it comes to qualifications for ideal clients, David doesn't hear anyone talking about how agencies can benefit when the person across the table is someone who presses boundaries and ethically skirts the rules within their own organization.

As Blair is finishing his new book that drops later this year, he comes to the realization that pretty much everything he does comes down to the fundamental issue that experts think they need to show up as a different person during the sale: pitching, persuading, and convincing instead of as the leader their prospective clients need them to be. LINKS "The Dichotomy of the Expert Salesperson" article by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com "Ditch the (Sales) Script"

While discussing eight ways creative firms can do pro bono work better based on an article David wrote recently, both he and Blair discover a couple new profound insights together. LINKS "Maximizing Your Pro-Bono Contributions" by David C. Baker at Punctuation.com Left-handed Mango Chutney

Blair recognizes how a Confucius quote is really bad business advice, but is still moved by how a highly principled creative firm in New Zealand continues to thrive by prioritizing their creative practices and client fit over new business strategy. LINKS "Attending the Way" article by Blair on WinWithoutPitching.com AltGroup.net

David frequently gets hired to help resolve issues at firms between multiple principles when it comes to who does what and how much each should get paid, so he's come up with a 7-point framework he can use in each unique scenario.

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he takes a lesson from investing with compound interest to understand the increasing returns we can receive from our relentless pursuit of knowledge over time. Links "The Time Value of Knowledge" article on WinWithoutPitching.com

David looks at the current data and weighs all the pros and cons of continuing to have staff who work from home in our post-pandemic economy, which makes Blair wonder if he would even survive if he was starting out in his profession today. Links "The Pros/Cons of Remote Work"

Blair sees too many creative firms talking at prospective clients using sales scripts instead of having a series of wide ranging conversations on their unique issues and objectives that set the tone for the potential long-term engagement. Links "Ten Set Pieces" "Mastering the Value Conversation"

Blair's latest obsession is bounded rationality, in which he sees too many creative firms failing to make "rational" decisions because they choose to bind their businesses with outdated and overly-constraining ideals like the 80/20 principle. Links "The Great Convergence is Upon Us" by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching Award-winning "Unapologetically Human" ad campaign by Kruger and BHLA Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services to Scalable Products by Eisha Tierney Armstrong

David shares his thoughts on some bad advice he hears involving the focus on pursuing personal passions in business.

Blair weighs in on this year's Forrester report, which shows the ridiculous amount of money agencies have been wasting on pitches. LINKS "Are These the Last Days of the Pitch?" by Blair Enns for Win Without Pitching "A New Forrester Report Urges Brands and Agencies to 'Ditch the Pitch'" by Olivia Morley for AdWeek published on 4 A's

David addresses another frequently asked question, looking at what creative firms should budget in terms of both money and time for their website, SaaS/automation, PR, content creation, and social media.

Blair identifies the differences between the ethics of selling expertise and the three schools of bargaining ethics, and what happens when we don't adapt our bargaining approach to match our opponents in the game of negotiation. Links "The Conflicting Ethics of Selling & Negotiating" article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

In an era of rapid turnover and remote working arrangements, developing a structured onboarding process for new staff is more important than ever. David has a checklist to help agencies get their new employees up to speed as quickly as possible.

Blair sees non-standard payment terms as a two-sided issue, where agencies should be creatively leveraging terms more to their own benefit as opposed to just defending themselves against procurement departments who impose onerous terms. LINKS "Payment Terms, On Your Terms"

While analyzing data from his Total Business Reset surveys, David has noticed five significant trends which principals should be aware of to run their firms more effectively, as well as one thing your team wishes you'd stop doing.

As a follow-up to the discussion in the previous episode, Blair has some criteria for firms that would beneift from prioritizing and codifying an effective referral strategy as a way to gain new business. LINKS "The Best Referral Machine I Have Ever Seen"

In part one of a two-part discussion about developing a business referral strategy, Blair is surprised to hear that David wants to cover how and why we can get better at giving away business, before talking about how to get more referrals.

Blair runs through one of his constraint driven exercises with David by having us imagine running our business with nobody dedicated to the various functions under the banner of new business.

David has observed six common characteristics of agency principals that can affect whether or not their business succeeds.

Even after understanding and trying to adopt the philosophies from Win Without Pitching, Blair sees many creative firms struggling to increase profit because of these six obstacles involving their people and processes. Links Mastering the Value Conversation The Complexities of Commission Culture Innoficiency in Your Agency The Enemy Within The Complex Battle for Margin Debriefing After a New Business Call Is Your Firm Addicted to New Business? Who's Going to Own This?

This is your intervention and David has some tough questions about the important decisions you should be making to manage and grow your creative firm. LINKS "The Four Types of Employees at Your Firm"

David feels like project managers get a bad rap and has tried to raise their profile within creative firms. So he's gathered a list of traits from the best project managers he's met in the hundreds of agencies he's worked with over the years. Links "Understanding Account People"

A lot has changed since Blair wrote his article about seven mistakes he sees creative firms make with CRM years ago, and David wants to know why Excel isn't a good tool for managing sales leads.

Blair has six challenges creative agencies face when it comes to being compensated for the actual value they generate for their clients.

David addresses how vertically positioned agencies can manage a client roster containing multiple companies who are competitors with each other.

Blair has been getting too much spam lately and sees an opportunity with warm leads that lies between inbound and outbound marketing which is not being mined well among the creative firms. Links "Inbound, Outbound & In Between" article on WinWithoutPitching.com

Blair wants sales people to stop ranking proposal options in a way that assigns judgement for prospective clients without considering the many tradeoffs that need to be considered. Read the episode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/the-perils-of-good-better-best-pricing

Blair is confused by David's mixed metaphors about creative agencies being able to sell strategy services up front, instead of entering through the implementation door with new clients and then trying to demonstrate how much more your firm can provide.

Blair sees some creative firms as "black holes" where accounts go in and seemingly never come out, and others as "new business development machines," consistently generating half of their revenue from new clients every year. Links "Is Your Firm Addicted to New Business?" "Churn, Baby, Churn"

David has a brand new book, Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors: Covert Techniques for a Remarkable Practice. In it he reveals exactly how he manages engagements with his clients, and he's nervous about how it will be received. Links Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors: Covert Techniques for a Remarkable Practice The Business of Expertise: How Entrepreneurial Experts Convert Insight to Impact + Wealth Read the transcrtipt and episode notes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/secret-tradecraft-of-elite-advisors

Blair has talked many times on the podcast about how innovation and efficiency are mutually opposable goals, and after presenting his first keynote on the "Innoficiency Principle" goes deeper into this idea with David. Links "The Innoficiency Problem" "The Marketing Procurement Problem" The Google Cemetery "The Enemy Within" "The Complex Battle for Margin" "Five Levels of Pricing Success"

David gets flack for his contrary perspective on how agencies shouldn't necessarily aim for long-term client relationships. So he clarifies how he's seen the the fear of both client and employee churn hold firms back. LINKS "Reboot Your Culture Through New Business" "Your Firm Should Be A Team—Not A Family" "The Problem of Standards" by David Maister Read the transcript and episode notes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/churn-baby-churn

Blair frequently tells his clients, "You reinvent the firm one new client at a time." So looking ahead to the new year, he has five areas where principals can be looking to upgrade their agency's culture through the next new client. Links Tim Williams, The Unscalable Business Model Jim de Zoete, Don't Pitch Your Mental Health Maintaining the Expert Position...After the Sale The Agency Gatekeeper Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee Everything Can Change in One Conversation The Enemy Within Mastering the Value Conversation Selling in One Lesson The Power of Options

Have your firm's managers been promoted based on technical proficiency and status, or was it because of their self-awareness and critical thinking? David shares why he sees so many poor managers in the creative firms he's worked with, and then lists what he looks for in great team leaders. Read the episode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/who-should-be-promoted

Without turning everything into a power play, David provides seven sources of leverage that can help agencies maintain the leadership role in client engagements long term. Read the epiosde notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/maintaining-the-expert-position-after-the-sale

David has 16 things for principals to try when they feel the need to do something different from running their firm. Links Play the Game of Constraints Read the epsisode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/when-your-engagement-level-drops

Blair talks about his new podcast with Leah Power, 20% - The Marketing Procurement Podcast, in which they are speaking with marketing, procurement, and agency professionals about how to "procure" creativity without killing it. Read the episode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/the-marketing-procurement-problem

Blair recommends five things firms need to be effective at qualifying new business opportunities in order to prevent the over-allocation of resources against early-stage buyers. Links Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee Mastering the Value Conversation Models Everywhere Critical Questions Your New Business Person Should Be Able to Answer How and When to Talk About Your Firm Read the episode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/the-agency-gatekeeper

David thinks creative firms can learn something from sex workers about how to run their business. Read the transcript and episode notes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/prostitutes-and-scope-creep

David is not an economist so he doesn't have any idea if an economic downturn is imminent, but the signs aren't great. If you decide that a downturn is around the corner, what would you do right now? Read the transcript and episode notes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/how-would-you-prepare-for-a-downturn

Blair had fun on a week of sales calls and came up with four reasons why he thinks most people can learn to have fun selling like he did. Read the episode notes and transcript at http://2bobs.com/podcast/selling-should-be-fun-or-you-arent-doing-it-right Links "Are We Having Fun Yet?" "This Should Be Fun" "Coaches Corner: Now This Is Fun"

Blair and David go into detail about what a model is for a creative firm and how they can be useful in closing new business and improving profitability. Read the transcript and episode notes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/models-everywhere

David and Blair follow up their previous discussion about how marketing firms have evolved, going deeper into how different service categories and positioning might look in the near future. Read this episode's transcript and get links to what was discussed at http://2bobs.com/podcast/how-categories-andpositioning-options-might-change

Creative or marketing firms look a lot different today than they did 20 years ago. What happened to the ad agencies and design firms? And what trends are Blair and David seeing as businesses and technology continue to evolve? Read the transcript and listen to more episodes at http://2bobs.com/podcast/the-evolution-of-a-marketing-firm