2Bobs—with David C. Baker and Blair Enns

David sees a lot of creative agencies making bad assumptions about their client relationships by not making the distinction between the reasons why clients come to them in the first place, why they choose to continue working with them as time passes, and then why they ultimately move on. LINKS "Distinguishing Between Why Clients Come, Stay, and Leave" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "The Waterfall of Differentiation" 2Bobs episode

Blair is stunned that he still encounters so many advisory businesses like ad agencies, consulting firms, legal and accounting practices — large and small — that are still selling time. So he and David discuss what new revenue models should look like as we all adapt to how AI is changing our businesses. Links "Time's Up, Babycakes" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Time's Up!: The Subscription Business Model for Professional Firms by Paul Dunn and Ronald J. Baker The Automatic Customer: Creating a Subscription Business in Any Industry by John Warrillow The Forever Transaction by Robbie Kellman Baxter Subscribed: Why the Subscription Model Will Be Your Company's Future – and What to Do About It by Tien Tzuo and Gabe Weisert

Blair interviews David about a recent article he's been receiving a lot of feedback on, in which he lists all of the things he would try to incorporate into a brand new creative agency, based on what he's seen and learned from working with thousands of firms over the years. Links "If I Started A New Firm, Now" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair differentiates between decoy pricing and price anchoring, which are two different techniques that are often confused for each other, and can increase your average proposal value in multi-option pricing when used appropriately. Links "Decoy or Anchor?" article by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Perils of 'Good/Better/Best' Pricing" 2Bobs episode

Despite the fact that many entrepreneurs hate people telling them what to do, they end up running their own agencies using a "central planning" model. Instead, David encourages entrepreneurial leaders to set clear standards, give staff more freedom, and institute kind accountability, for them and ourselves. Links "Countering Your 'Central Planning' Tendencies" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he gives us methods to cope with our own natural emotional and physiological responses that can be triggered when unforeseen events unfold within sales conversations. LINKS "Can Improv and Cold Plunges Improve Your Sales?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Blair's interview on the Undisputed Authority podcast with Liam Curley What Doesn't Kill Us by Scott Carney

Blair interviews David about a recent article in which he argues that the very traits that make entrepreneurs successful also make it hard for them to give up being their own boss and join someone else's company. LINKS "What Makes Entrepreneurs Unemployable" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

David interviews Blair about his recent article in which he explores how our businesses are not simple machines that can be tuned (or killed) with specific wrenches, but they are complex adaptive organisms that we need to understand differently. LINKS "Your Business Is Not a Machine" by Blair Enns for winwitoutpitching.com "Innofficiency in Your Agency" 2Bobs episode "Grow or Die?" 2Bobs episode

David sees too many marketing agencies trying to attract new business by staking claims of specialness on things for which nobody is claiming the opposite, instead of building their positioning on uniquely defined expertise.

Are prospects not responding to your follow-up after you submit a proposal? Blair goes through what might be causing their lack of response and then provides three tools to address the ghosting problem. Links "Ghosted. Now What?" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com "The Power of a Metaphor" 2Bobs episode Blair's annual 100 Day Sprint post on LinkedIn

One characteristic of our industry is disappearing moats. After a brief overview of the fourteen moats we've lost from 1965 to today, we'll look at what turf we really have left to defend and what the future will look like if we get this right. It'll be very different, and you'd better get ahead of it.

What do we do in those situations where we have to pitch? Blair simplifies some important principles from his books into a sequence of four precepts we can follow when the sales process doesn't progress like we'd hoped. Links "The Only New Business Indicator That Matters" 2Bobs episode "Assume an Advantaged Player" 2Bobs episode "Slapping Down Your Childlike Glee" 2Bobs episode

If/when you sell your firm, it'll likely be the largest transaction of your life, and so it makes sense to understand it! In this episode David gives a crash course in everything earnouts. LINKS "Understanding Earnouts" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Blair recognizes growth opportunities in every area of life and business, yet sees many people chasing metrics while unknowingly resisting genuine progress for various reasons. LINKS "Chief Growth Officer" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

David recognizes that the fear of repeating ourselves in our client work is motivated by the right things: "am I delivering value?" LINKS "Repeating Yourself as an Expert" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "Questions, Not Answers" 2Bobs episode

Blair tells the story of recreation.gov and how its performance pay deal has been nothing but wins for every party involved, with plenty of lessons for buyers and sellers of all kinds of services. LINKS "Performance Pay Leads to a $500M Website" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com Recreation.gov

David provides a framework for one of the most important conversations in a creative agency principal's life. LINKS "When A Key Employee Wants Equity" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "Pros + Cons of Having a Partner" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Instead of railing against AI-generated spam, Blair decides to "get in on the action" with his brand new SpamHack AI Growth System™️ in this spoof episode.

David recognizes more than a few parallels between his passion for motorcycle racing and the work being done in creative and marketing agencies. LINKS "What I Learned from the Race Track" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Instead of just relying on the talent of individual sales people, Blair recommends creative agencies identify and invest in six elements as a part of their organization's long-term sales system. LINKS "Critical Questions Your New Business Person Should Be Able to Answer" 2Bobs episode "How to Ask for Referrals" 2Bobs episode "CRM and the Mistakes to Avoid" 2Bobs episode "Who Should Set Prices?" 2Bobs episode "Mastering the Value Conversation" 2Bobs episode

David finds the courage to address a topic he's been putting off for awhile, as he is seeing more agency principals struggling to maintain both healthy and productive work environments by leading the ongoing process of resolving tensions within their teams. LINKS "Adapting to a Modern Workforce" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Instead of beginning the relationship with a prospective client by presenting a deck on why your agency is so amazing and why you should be invited to pitch, Blair encourages us to have the "Probative Conversation" from his Four Conversations sales model. LINKS "There Is No Credentials Meeting" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise" 2Bobs episode The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise book by Blair Enns

When it comes to positioning, David is still seeing creative firms failing to answer three essential questions in the proper sequence: category, specialization, and then secondary differentiators (or qualifying characteristics).

Blair sees high price anchors everywhere—from buying a suit to ordering a burger. So what factors should creative firms keep in mind as they use anchoring in selling their service options? And when is the best time to present the anchor option within the sales conversation? Links "Anchor High" by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Following up on the recent episode on whether you should be considering that offer to sell your firm, David provides four questions to get answered, two documents to sign, and a short list of materials that can help you take the lead in early conversations with a buyer. LINKS "Should You Entertain That Acquisition Offer?"

The more unexpected the metaphor, the more information it carries. Blair has four less-obvious metaphors to give you access to entire playbooks in just four words when selling your expertise. LINKS "The Power of a Metaphor" written by Blair Enns for winwithoutpitching.com

Ignoring any unexpected offers to buy your business that might come your way is not in your best interest. But neither is dating all opportunities in desperation. David has four things principals should consider, whether or not you are actively looking to sell your firm. Links "Should You Entertain That Offer?" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com 2Bobs London Meet-up on Thursday 8 May, 2025 at 2pm

Your clients are far more likely to talk to each other when you have vertical positioning. Blair has observed both good and bad things arising from this. Links "How to Ask for Referrals" 2Bobs episode

As we are hearing about more firms that are closing during these challenging times, David offers some guidance to help cut through the confusion when our worst fears in our business become reality. Links "Facing an Existential Crisis" article by David for punctuation.com Rory Sutherland's LinkedIn post David's LinkedIn post

As Blair continues to encourage expert practice owners to price the client and not the service, he and David discuss the pros and cons of four levels of pricing authority they should be thinking about within their firm, instead of just assuming pricing responsibility automatically defaults to a specific role or job title. Links "Who Should Set Prices In Your Firm?" written by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com

David thinks principals should build their firms as if they were going to sell it while Blair's advice is to run it as if you'll never sell it. Being aware of options as your firm matures can give you the leverage you might need in negotiations. Links "Ten Reasons Firms Are Bought" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com

Through the process of writing his latest book, Blair's thinking has evolved on whether or not firms should resist the urge to productize their services as they work to creatively meet the unique needs of each client.

In Blair's experience, the most common reason a lead generation plan doesn't get executed is it doesn't recognize and leverage the strengths or motivations of the individuals executing. LINKS "The Best Lead Generation Plan" article by Blair Enns for WinWithoutPitching.com "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" 2Bobs episode

David describes the differences in what kind of people principals should hire during the early stage of their creative firm's development when it's all about "what we can afford," the middle stage when it's about "what we need," and then the later days of an agency when it's about "what we can learn." LINKS "How Your Hiring Strategies Change" by David C. Baker for punctuation.com "The Problem of Standards" by David Maister

Blair borrows a concept from finance and fitness to help creative agencies find the balance between low risk and high risk pricing strategies.

Blair interviews David about his new book, Selling Your Professional Services Firm: A Primer. LINKS Buy a copy of David's new book from him directly. Buy David's new book and audiobook on Amazon.

Blair interviews David on his recent article about the idea that expertise does involve supplying answers, eventually, but mainly expertise is about asking the right questions, first, and then offering a few answers after the truth surfaces. Links "Expertise Is Mainly About Asking Great Questions" by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

Blair shares how to determine whether or not we are the advantaged player the "polite battle for control" within the game of sales, and how we can get the odds of winning the sale to be more in our favor. Links "Assume an Advantaged Player" article by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com

David interviews Blair about his new book, which lays out his proven framework B2B service providers can use to increase closing ratios and average proposal values. Links Order The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise by Blair Enns

Blair and David reminisce about their podcasting journey since Blair first pitched the 2Bobs idea to David back in 2016, sharing what they've learned along the way, and what they might like to try with the podcast in the future.

David unpacks six principles that can help creative firms benefit from delivering strategic guidance through their account managers. LINKS "Account Managers and Strategy" by David C. Baker at punctuation.com

Blair sees four common behaviors when business owners are looking to get deals moving in times of economic decline, stagnation, or uncertainty that end up doing long term harm to their positioning and pricing. LINKS "Four Ways to Commodify Your Offering" by Blair Enns on WinWithoutPitching.com "Phase Your Client Engagements" 2Bobs episode

Every few years we're told that we need to move on from using email newsletters as a part of our marketing platform. And David says that advice has always been wrong. Links David's article on Punctuation.com (subscribe to his newsletter at the bottom of the page) "Email is the Most Consistent, Reliable Marketing Channel on the Web and I Can Prove It" by Rand Fishkin

David provides some clear examples of what is required for a firm to be successful at offering one service for many different verticals. Links "Strengthening a Weak Horizontal Positioning" by David C. Baker on punctuation.com

Given these uncertain economic times we are in right now, Blair is asking if some creative firms might need to rethink the market they serve, looking at whether their positioning might be too broad, too narrow, or just wrong. LINKS "The Target Is Not the Market" by Blair Enns on winwithoutpitching.com

David shares his decision-making framework that will help agency principals make better decisions during chaotic times like these. LINKS "Leading in a Chaotic World" article by David C. Baker on Punctuation.com

Pricing is a prison cell of our own making. And it's cultural. Blair has come up with a series of prompts as a creative exercise to help us all move into a realm of higher pricing. Links "Creating a Culture of Premium Pricing" by Blair Enns at WinWithoutPitching.com "Have we Hit Peak Strategy?" "Be the Client You Want to See in the World"

David wants agency principals to develop new business plans which delivers more new leads with less labor so their organizations can have more controllable growth, as well as increasing their likelihood for a successful exit when that time comes. Links 2Bobs episode: "The Rungs You Can Reach on the Ladder of Lead Generation" NY Times article: "How a Self-Published Book Broke 'All the Rules' and Became a Best Seller"