unbillable hours - a podcast about better professional services marketing

It's 2026... and we're still wondering: How are consulting firms using AI? How should they use it? So, we decided to ask someone who should know: QVALNT's Michael Boham is building solutions for this very space and has a few opinions about how firms should leverage AI, how they shouldn't do it, and where value can genuinely be found (spoiler: it's about so much more than just the tooling!). Episode guest Michael Boham, founder, QVALNT Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Sure, consulting services are great. But you know what's even better? Consulting programs! As in: Outcome-focused, time-boxed, and IP-supported bundles of services and capabilities. They're just so much clearer and therefore more helpful for everyone... plus they can really improve your delivery! And in this episode, Ash and Flo will give you the full rundown of why they're great and how you might start to design some. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes No notes for this one!

Alright... you've stuck with us long enough - which is why, yes, finally: you'll get to talk about your services (yay!). In all seriousness, though: There IS a time and a place to introduce prospects to your services, of course... It's just not at the start. And in this episode, we'll explain where they belong, and how you should introduce them. Listen to it here! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes No notes for this one!

So how, exactly, did things go in 2025? And what, exactly, did we learn? We brought on advisor to the consulting industry, founder of Prudent Pedal and all-around sector strategist, Jeff McKay, to discuss his insights into where we've been, we're we're headed, and, sure: what to make of "AI" and other new pressures resetting consulting. Listen to it here! Episode guest Jeff McKay, founder, Prudent Pedal Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes: Check out Jeff's blog about designing the AI era professional services org here

Nah ... AI isn't going to kill consulting. But it'll certainly change the sector ... especially by influencing perceptions and expectations. So, how can firms prepare? Ash and Flo's workshop answers the question of how consultancies can counter clients 'dwindling "willingness to pay" while positioning to capture whatever value can be found in the new, much-heralded AI solutions for themselves. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

THE PODCAST IS BACK! (Sorry for yelling...) And this time, we’re looking at the other side of the trust equation: not just whether clients trust you, but whether they trust themselves—to make the right decision, rally internal support, and deliver results. Listen in how a well-crafted consulting proposition can help them build this self-confidence... and, therefore, hire you ;) Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes No notes for this one!

Some frameworks just sit in decks. Others do real work. They spark interest, guide delivery, and help consulting firms stand out with confidence... and in this episode, we dive into the kind that do exactly that—signature frameworks—with designer and methodology expert Charlotte Crowther. We unpack how to craft one that’s not just smart… but strategic. So, iIf you’ve ever wondered what separates a slide from a system—this one’s for you! Episode guest Charlotte Crowther, founder, SignatureFramework.com Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Ever heard of "Rainmakers" - the bizdev champions of the services world? HBR published a piece saying their game is changing. Ash and Flo dove in to figure out how, exactly (spoiler: it's related to marketing!) Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes to this episode at unbillable-hrs.com.

We're back - and start our post-summer show with a deep dive into answers to the dreaded question "What should our consultancy post about?" (or some such): Tune in to hear Flo discuss the best philosophy for thought leadership planning and how to derive content from your value proposition. Enjoy! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes Check out the upcoming Deltek Webinar feat. Flo here

You’ve nailed your value proposition—now what? In this episode, we show how consultancies can embed business development capabilities across the whole firm, turning scattered effort into a coordinated go-to-market machine. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes No notes for this one!

There, we'll say it: "Cold outreach selling" - whether by email, phone, or LinkedIn - doesn't really work in consulting (with a few exceptions perhaps confirming this rule). So... what can you do instead? Ash and Flo share some insights and tips you might want to listen to before sinking another 20k into an outreach effort with no ROI... Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Shownotes No notes for this one!

We pause our strategy guide curriculum for a bit of news-related coverage - and have Ash and Flo review the new "Trends - Artificial Intelligence" report by Mary Meeker and her Co-authors at VC firm, Bond. The two use it to share some views re. how consultancies should position in this so-called "age of AI"... enjoy! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Matt Hodkinson and the "Consultancy Edge" team Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to the Trends - AI report on bondcap.com

Ah, yes: Case studies - the workhorses of consultancy business development! So important to prove you can deliver your proposition! And yet, often in such sorry, sorry states... (Like, really: Many of them are not exactly great). The team invited Lead Comet's James De Roche to discuss why so many case studies don't work, how to fix them, and much more - listen to their conversation here! Episode guest James De Roche, founder, Lead Comet Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Find Lead Comet's website over at: https://leadcometdigital.com/ Follow James on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesleadcomet/

Yes, we've explained how to design a value proposition. But what if a single proposition won't cut it - because your firm is large enough to house several practices, multiple service lines, and an even greater number of services? Ash and Flo explain, but want to remind you again here: Multi-propoisition stacking is a tool to facilitate effective strategy in larger firms - it's not your excuse to stay as broad and messy as possible 😉. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Matt Hodkinson and the "Consultancy Edge" team Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Find all "Consultancy Edge" episodes over at: https://www.thevisibleauthority.com/blog/how-to-structure-multiple-value-propositions-without-losing-your-firms-identity

Oh, hey - a "prequel!" Well, of sorts, at least: In this episode, Ash and Flo explore how small and mid-sized consultancies can compete—and win—against the big guys. They share four moves to help you out-position, out-deliver, and outsmart the giants, including how to de-risk the buying journey, pick smarter battles, and show up differently. It's great input to have before refining your firm's value proposition (hence the "prequel" comment here). Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to the The Visible Authority case study Flo refers to

Surprise episode! For this one, we'll break from our pre-planned curriculum of "how-to" episodes to syndicate a conversation between Total Growth Ownership's Matt Hodkinson and Flo for Matt's "Consultancy Edge" podcast. Listen to the two of them discuss positioning, productisation and pushing boundaries in consulting! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Matt Hodkinson and the "Consultancy Edge" team Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover for the unbillable hours podcast by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Find all "Consultancy Edge" episodes over at: https://podcast.totalgrowthownership.com/ Find Matt's LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthodkinson/ And do check out Matt's full YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNyv2M0jJ-zAtGzxOgW7cpw

And, here we are: This is the sixth and final episode of our "value proposition design" mini-series introducing the "Value Proposition Canvas" by TheVisibleAuthority! In this one, we'll cover why your firm needs both a point-of-view and a method of delivery, how the two are connected - and how you can go about designing yours. Enjoy! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes No notes for this one!

In this episode, we tackle the next big question in value proposition design: “What can clients expect from us?” Flo breaks down how to nail your expertise, immediate impact, and business outcomes—from defining your consulting type to describing clear before-and-after states. Quick, punchy, and BD-ready. Tune in! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes No notes for this one!

On to the next part of our strategy/value proposition design series: Describing your ideal clients' needs and struggles - or, more specifically, jobs-to-do, hurdles to success, and options for overcoming said hurdles. Sounds complicated? Don't worry, it isn't - Ash and Flo will explain! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes No notes for this one!

In this episode, we'll dive even deeper into value proposition design ... and discuss the next critical issue: Defining your consulting firm's ideal client profile or "ICP." Flo will guide you through all key steps, from defining "ideal" to reviewing your best recent engagements, to deriving a crisp description of your ICP. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to our handy "Best Engagement Review Guide" (a Google Doc)

You've heard how important it is to refine your firm's value proposition - so let's get to it! In this episode, Flo will walk you through the process of filling in box nr. #1 in TheVisibleAuthority's "Value Proposition Canvas," and find a comprehensive (and compelling) answer to the question: Why do clients come to you? Credits Voices, production, etc. by Flo Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes No notes for this one!

We've already told you how important it is to refine your firm's value proposition before you refine its bizdev strategy. So, let's explore a framework for doing just that, shall we? Listen to Ash and Flo explaining the "five questions" you can answer to create a compelling proposition, and hear their tips for differentiating your promise to the market. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to Luk Smeyer's and Flo's piece on TheVisibleAuthority.com (it's titled "Building a Winning Consulting Value Proposition")

Ever heard the idiom "sh#t in, sh#t out?" Well, it's very much true for business development, too. Which is why, for this first episode in our mini-series about "strategy," Ash and Flo explain which inputs need to go into your bizdev strategy if you're to be successful with it. Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes No notes for this one!

Since we seem to have screwed up last week's upload ... here's the very same episode, yet again, in full length and quality. Apologies, everyone! Ready to systematize your consulting firm's business development inititiatives? Well, let's start you off the right way then ... and discuss objectives, metrics and targets (yay!). Listen in to this "monologue" episode to hear Flo explain which benchmarks to pursue with your efforts... he'll keep it light on the math, we promise! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Show notes Link to the SPI research report Flo mentions A news release by SPI featuring some of the market stats

Ready to systematize your consulting firm's business development inititiatives? Well, let's start you off the right way then ... and discuss objectives, metrics and targets (yay!). Listen in to this "monologue" episode to hear Flo explain which benchmarks to pursue with your efforts... he'll keep it light on the math, we promise! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to the SPI research report Flo mentions A news release by SPI featuring some of the market stats

Ready to change how your consultancy "does bizdev?" Great! But chances are, you'll have to convince a few other people in your firm... which is why, in this episode, Ash and Flo sketch out the case for shifting to a more strategic, more systematic way of business development. Enjoy! Credits Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Show notes Link to Simon Nathan's LinkedIn-post with the Kennedy Insight data Link to AI solution vendor "fifthrow.com" (an example for AI solutions "eating into" consulting)

A new year, a new chapter for the podcast! Listen to how Ash and Flo will focus the show on "systematizing" business development from now on, and hear them explain the concept and underpinning structure so you can understand what's coming (well' be exploring systematic strategy, client journey, firm story and bizdev systems from here on in... we hope you enjoy it!). Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

In a year where many consultancies struggled, US martech boutique "Stitch" crushed it. Their secret? Intentionally designing a strategy around a single tech vendor, and then building from there. Stitch CEO Michael Burton is back to share why doubling down on a partnership like this worked, how the tech consulting landscape is shifting, and why 2025 looks even better. Listen in to learn why sometimes "putting all your eggs in one basket" might be smarter than you think. Episode guest: Michael Burton, Founder and CEO, Stitch. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com

Most consultancies "do marketing" like they think it should be done, which is: as mere promotion. The most successful firms, however, do it differently - and follow a process which, Ash and Flo argue, is much more similar to scientific publishing... Listen in to learn how, why - and why you should consider 'copying science' in this way, too. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Did "Gen AI" just create a "leopards-eat-my-face" moment in consulting? Ash and Flo aren't entirely sure yet... but they're certain the technology - with all its current issues - has started to impact the industry. Listen in on their discussion how firms and their marketers should respond: Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

It’s that time of year when consulting firms pull out their crystal balls to forecast the future. But we’re turning the spotlight back on them. Austin McNair from Hinge gives us a sneak peek into their upcoming research on high-growth consulting firms. Curious about what makes firms thrive or want our wild predictions? Tune in and get ahead of Hinge’s newest insights. P.S.: Please participate in their survey to indirectly tell us where we have it all wrong ;) - https://hingemarketing.com/unbillable Episode guest: Austin McNair, marketing lead, Hinge Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com.

Ever wonder why consultancy marketing is such an uphill struggle? Well, we've identified the root causes—and in this episode, Ash and Flo will both present them to you and share tips for resolving them. Enjoy! Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Ever wondered whether setting up one of those LinkedIn-Newsletters we're all constantly invited to subscribe to would be ... worth it? We always had our doubts... until we came across Westofcenter's Andy West, who, clearly, aced the LI-NL with his helpful, concise, and, above all, highly social "Agency Advisory." So... we invited him to the show, and asked him to explain ... Episode guest: Andy West, founder, Westofcenter Consulting Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com.

Stressed out by "new biz," RFPs, pitches and proposals? Might be your firm's vague value proposition is at fault... Listen to Ash and Flo discussing the "downstream" issues caused by too broad, too generic propositions, and how these lead to much-too-high pre-sales and bid management efforts and business development cost. Oh, and, stay tuned for their tips re. how to do better! Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

We constantly tell consultancy marketers to speak less about what their firms do, and more about which outcomes they can deliver. But hey, easy for us to say, right? What are you supposed to do if your firm doesn't seem to have any hard outcome data points to share? Ash and Flo explain: Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Can you position - and then successfully grow - a firm by positioning it around a extreme, if not "radical" candor? Nikhil Suresh and his colleagues over at Hermit Tech (a "radically ethical" data consultancy) sure think so - and continue to make waves by calling out the bullshit in all things digital, data, and AI. Listen in to hear Nik speak to how it's working for them! Episode guest: Nikhil Suresh, co-founder, Hermit Tech Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Do your firm's service websites convert... or stink? Chances are, they're at least a bit smelly - simply because that's the expected state of things in this industry of ours. But don't fret... you can make them much, much more effective quickly by using the principle and structure Flo discusses in this episode. Oh, you might want to reference this Bain website as you listen to this (it's our case example for this episode). Voices, production, etc., by Flo only (just this time). Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

It's a summer break replay y'all ... focused on a key, key topic: Strategic account management - if well executed - is one of the best ways to win new work for a firm. Which is why we invited friend of the show and account strategy expert Ute Wellenberg to explain how she drives effective account planning. And, well ... Let's just say: If your job is to market a consultancy - you can't miss this episode! Episode guest: Ute Wellenberg, friend of the show and account strategy GOAT (so to say). Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the shownotes to this episode at unbillable-hrs.com!

In our experience, many consulting workshops are far less effective than they should be – and it really has to change. Which is why we invited Mesozoic’s João Landeiro, an expert in workshop design and facilitation, to hear from him how experts can turn unfocused examples of do-not-much ‘executive education’ into laser-focused productivity sessions driving real results. Episode guest: João Landeiro, founder, Mesozoic. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com

Keen for some practical tips for improving your firm's business development AND delivery success? Then listen to this replay of a recent Deltek webinar, which has Flo summarize a few key pointers around value proposition refinement and "signature method" design! Episode host: Deltek, through their "Powering consulting efficiencies" series. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the webinary-accompanying blogpost here.

Yes, we've discussed productizing before on this podcast... but we hadn't done so with Eisha Tierney Armstrong yet, who literally wrote the book about it. So, Ash and Flo invited her on - and she kindly hopped on to share what she knows about structuring, templatizing, and tech-enabling services before building entire "products." A Highly recommended listen! Episode guest: Eisha Tierney Armstrong, co-founder, Vecteris, and author, "Productize" (among other things) Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com

Q: "Hey Ash, Flo - would love to implement some of the value proposition stuff you keep talking about. But we're a 15-practice firm! Where should I even start?" A: "You start by creating multiple propositions. Here, let me show you..." *proceeds to pull out pins, red string, and a Matryoshka doll* Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes to this episode on unbillable-hrs.com. Oh, and: Register for the Deltek webinar with Flo (July 18th, 8pm CET) using this link right here. Thanks!

All consultancies have know-how... but not all of them have it formalized (let alone refined to a point where it might become some form or IP). If your firm is in the latter group - which steps could you take towards a more refined, compelling form of "know-how-packaging"? We asked Curley Thirty Three's Liam Curley for tips: Episode guest: Liam Curley, Founder, Curley Thirty Three. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes to this episode on unbillable-hrs.com.

Ash and Flo discuss a recent think piece from Source Global Research, pointing to interesting changes in professional services buyers' spending patterns and service buying preferences. Is it time to tweak your firm's messaging? Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes to this eposide at unbillable-hrs.com.

Sure, your firm has frameworks - but does it have a "signature methodology," i.e., a proprietary process designed to help educate prospects and structure engagements? If not, you should design one ASAP - and listen to this to learn how you might do it: Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Have your value prop, signature method, and offerings defined (as per our earlier episodes)? Great, congrats! Then you're ready to keep improving everything by using client feedback in some of the ways Ash and Flo describe here. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Does your consultancy have a point of view on its clients' industry, business, and challenges yet? No? Well, then, this is the episode for you because in it, Ash and Flo share their framework for distilling one (or several, should you need them). Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Please find the shownotes to this episode on unbillable-hrs.com.

Ever wonder how we're producing this humble podcast? Well, Flo spilled the beans when speaking to John Tyreman over at "Podcasting in Professional Services," and John was kind enough to permit us to re-release the episode here, in this feed, so here you go! Episode guest: Flo Heinrichs, founder, client friendly. Voices, production, etc. by John Tyreman and crew at Red Cedar Marketing. Check out John's podcast over at https://www.redcedarmarketing.com/podcasting-in-professional-services (or wherever you get your podcasts)

"Market segmentation" remains the most under-utilized source of differentiation in all of consulting... So how can you segment properly, and create an edge for your firm? Ash and Flo discuss: Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota

Is digital marketing really the end-all, be-all of consultancy business development? Our guest for this episode, Interview Valet's Tom Schwab, disagrees (and so do Ash and Flo) - and explains why, right now, the greater opportunity might be exploring everything besides digital ads, SEO, and social selling: Episode guest: Tom Schwab, Chief Evangelist Officer & Founder, Interview Valet. Voices, production, etc. by Ash and Flo. Creative and design advice by @calmar.creativ Into, outro voiceover by @iamthedakota Music also by @iamthedakota Pls. find the shownotes for this episode at unbillable-hrs.com.