The Glenn Show

0:00 Has Norman been shut out of mainstream political debates?7:54 Norman’s conflict with Alan Dershowitz16:50 Is Israel an apartheid state?19:25 Identifying with Paul Robeson33:08 Norman’s new book, I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It!44:42 Norman: Wokeness is a “triple scam”53:28 What’s become of Angela Davis?1:00:05 Cornel West's chosen path1:09:01 Obama’s self-proclaimed “neat trick”1:24:38 The political intelligence of Carter, Clinton, and Obama1:38:10 South Carolina 2020: a case study in identity politics1:47:24 Would Bernie have won in 2016?Recorded April 19, 2023Links and ReadingsNorman’s new book, I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get to It!: Heretical Thoughts on Identity Politics, Cancel Culture, and Academic FreedomNorman’s book, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish SufferingNorman’s book, Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of HistoryNorman’s book, Gaza: An Inquest into Its MartyrdomNorman’s book, A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical TruthNorman’s book, What Ghandi Says: On Nonviolence, Resistance, and CourageNorman’s book, “This Time We Went Too Far”: Truth and Consequences on the Gaza InvasionNorman’s book, Knowing Too Much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel is Coming to an EndNorman’s book, The Rise and Fall of Palestine: A Personal Account of the Intifada YearsJoan Peters’s book, From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over PalestineAlan Dershowitz’s book, The Case for IsraelAlan Dershowitz and Norman’s debate on Democracy NowMichael Barnett, Nathan Brown, Marc Lynch, and Shibley Telhami’s Foreign Affairs piece, “Israel’s One-State Reality”Paul Robeson singing “The Four Insurgent Generals”The Letters of Rosa LuxembourgMark Doss performing “Ol’ Man River”Paul Robeson’s autobiography, Here I StandW.E.B. Du Bois’s book, The Philadelphia NegroW.E.B. DuBois’s book, Black Reconstruction in America, 1860-1880Tom Wolfe’s New York Magazine essay, “Radical Chic: That Party at Lenny’s”Angela Davis’s 2022 appearance at the University of South CarolinaBarack Obama’s memoir, A Promised LandBill Clinton’s memoir, My LifeJimmy Carter’s memoir, Keeping FaithDavid Axelrod’s memoir, Believer: My Forty Years in PoliticsFrederick Douglass’s third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

In this week’s episode, John and I return to a familiar character: Omar. For those of you unfamiliar with “Omar,” he’s our invented surrogate for the kind of young black man whose behavior is wreaking havoc on Chicago and St. Louis. Omar is economically disadvantaged. He was more than likely raised by a single mother. He underperforms academically, and he may have dropped out of high school. He’s involved in illegal activity of one sort or another. If there is some kind of large-scale disorderly event, you’ll likely find Omar there. After a discussion of Tucker Carlson’s departure from Fox News, John and I spend most of the episode talking about Omar: what made him who he is, why he acts the way he does, and what, if anything, can make him change. John has little sympathy for structural explanations for Omar’s behavior. According to John, culture makes Omar who he is, not the history of American racism, not implicit bias, and not even a supposed lack of legitimate jobs. I play devil’s advocate, raising some objections you might hear from sociologists or historians, but in truth, I find John’s reasoning pretty persuasive. To couch it in my own framework, the bias narrative just doesn’t cut it. And to those of you wondering if I have anything more to say about YouTube’s removal of my conversation with John and Mark Goldblatt: I sure do. I’ve recorded an episode with my creative director Nikita Petrov in which we discuss censorship, YouTube, and why we’re sticking with Substack. Stay tuned. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalHad he been in treatment, Jordan Neely’s death in a subway car may have been prevented, writes Stephen Eide.0:00 Glenn mounts a defense of Tucker Carlson13:44 Glenn: “Race relations will not get better through denial”24:37 What historical conditions created Omar?36:24 John: Omar is not the result of white neglect45:16 John’s critique of structural explanations of Omar54:14 What will happen to Tucker? 55:40 Why you should become a paying subscriber Links and Readings The NYT’s story on Tucker Carlson’s “it’s not how white men fight” textJohn’s book, Winning the Race: Beyond the Crisis in Black AmericaWilliam Julius Wilson’s book, The Truly Disadvantaged: The Inner City, the Underclass, and Public PolicyWilliam Julius Wilson’s book, When Work Disappears: The World of the New Urban PoorWilliam Julius Wilson’s book, The Declining Significance of Race: Blacks and Changing American InstitutionsThomas Sugrue’s book, The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar DetroitJason DeParle’s book, American Dream: Three Women, Ten Kids, and a Nation’s Drive to End WelfareFrantz Fanon’s book, The Wretched of the EarthFrantz Fanon’s book, Black Skin, White MasksPhilip Roth’s novel, American Pastoral This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Heather’s new book, When Race Trumps Merit: How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys Beauty, and Threatens Lives8:20 Are racial disparities in medical school the result of racism or skills gaps?20:03 Do we really know what causes racial disparities?32:23 Closing racial achievement gaps begins at home40:39 Will black doctors necessarily provide better care to black patients?50:26 Canceling Western art1:00:37 Heather: Colonialism cannot explain the development of art1:05:21 The stupidity of arguments against “cultural appropriation”1:18:24 Heather: Lack of policing is a civil rights problem1:29:43 Is it possible for a cop to get a fair trial?1:34:40 Race and the future of progressive DAsRecorded April 16, 2023Links and ReadingsHeather’s new book, When Race Trumps Merit: How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys Beauty, and Threatens LivesStephen Carter’s book, Reflections of an Affirmative Action BabyGlenn’s conversation with Charles MurrayCharles Murray’s book, Facing Reality: Two Truths about Race in AmericaJennifer Lee and Min Zhou’s book, The Asian American Achievement ParadoxRonald Ferguson’s learning network, The BasicsPierre Bourdieu’s book, DistinctionHeather’s City Journal essay, “Stirring Sounds”Michelle Alexander’s book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of ColorblindnessMichael Fortner’s book, Black Silent Majority: The Rockefeller Drug Laws and the Politics of PunishmentGlenn’s conversation with Michael FortnerJames Forman Jr.’s book, Locking Up Our Own: Crime and Punishment in Black AmericaFred Siegal’s City Journal essay, “The Riot Ideology, Reborn” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit glennloury.substack.comGlenn and John answer questions from the Substack community.

0:00 Mark Goldblatt’s recent book, I Feel, Therefore I Am: The Triumph of Woke Subjectivism10:55 Wokeism’s roots in postmodern thought15:05 The “mysticism” of woke thinking17:44 Learning from Christine Blasey Ford’s accusations26:29 John breaks his silence on transgender issues35:13 The political consequences of subjectivism41:46 Why Mark thinks transgender people are mentally disordered50:07 What does the T have to do with the LGB?58:09 Mark: Transgender people deserve respect1:02:39 Distinguishing between strategy and realityLinks and ReadingsMark’s book, I Feel Therefore I Am: The Triumph of Woke SubjectivismMatt Yglesias’s Vox essay, “The Great Awokening”A clip from Glenn’s recent appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 The gigification of academia8:26 Is education just another commodity?18:14 What do historians do?26:22 Daniel: The university system is an unregulated cartel35:08 The liberalism (not the leftism) of the university38:22 Using (and getting used by) new technology43:19 An alternate history of global economic development47:29 The end of the American century54:27 Daniel’s critique of US support for UkraineRecorded February 7, 2023Links and ReadingsDaniel’s NYT op-ed, “The Dangerous Decline of the Historical Profession”Daniel’s TGS mini-series, “Glenn Loury’s Intellectual Origins”Francis Fukuyama’s book, The End of History and the Last ManDaniel’s essay on Fukuyama for the Nation, “A Bad Breakup”Adrianna Kezar, Tom DePaola, and Daniel T. Scott’s book, The Gig Academy: Mapping Labor in the Neoliberal UniversitySamuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis’s book, Schooling in Capitalist America: Educational Reform and the Contradictions of Economic LifeJames Sweet’s column, “Is History History?”Daniel’s Chronicle of Higher Education piece, “The AHA’s Mission Needs to Change”Eugen Weber’s book, Peasants into Frenchmen: The Modernization of Rural France, 1870-1914Daniel’s podcast, American PrestigeDaniel’s Harper’s Harper’s piece, “Empire Burlesque”Daniel’s New Republic piece, “Does American Fascism Exist? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Al Sharpton’s National Action Network still exists, apparently5:00 MLK’s understanding of America’s contributions to democracy12:58 Are the “people with three names” grifters or merely limited in their racial vision?21:07 How do you change the minds of black voters?30:13 The national black leadership vacuum36:30 The under-recognized success of the black middle class41:30 Ian’s got a four-point plan …47:38 … but what’s the best way to disseminate it? (It’s podcasts.)51:37 The paradox of Obama and Thomas1:01:01 How does Glenn know “nobody is coming to save us”?Recorded April 9, 2023Links and ReadingsIan’s book, Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to PowerIan’s charter school network, Vertex Partnership AcademiesAl Sharpton’s National Action NetworkPew poll on black political strategy and leadershipAEI’s study, “Black Men: Making It in America” Richard Reeves’s book, Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about ItThomas Sowell speaking at the 1980 Fairmont ConferenceClarence Thomas’s memoir, My Grandfather’s Son This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 What’s wrong with cancelation?13:28 A defense of Charles Murray21:24 Cancelation and the closet28:08 Jonathan’s book, The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth39:35 Jonathan: “The marketplace of ideas” is a necessary but insufficient metaphor42:51 Is Trump an agent of disinformation?54:22 What the woke and MAGA crowds have in common59:41 Why Jonathan is hopeful about the constitution of knowledgeRecorded February 6, 2022Links and ReadingsJonathan’s latest book, The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of TruthJonathan’s book, Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free ThoughtCharles Murray and Richard Herrnstein’s book, The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American LifeJeff Gerth’s Four-Party Columbia Journalism Review series on Trump and the pressStanford’s Internet Observatory This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 The disruption of Judge Kyle Duncan’s speech at Stanford Law School9:33 Why did people have a problem with Duncan?13:51 Will the current Supreme Court overturn Obergefell v. Hodges16:37 The necessity of free inquiry and reasoned discourse26:44 What it’s like being a FedSoc conservative at Stanford Law34:30 The fallout from the Duncan protests41:30 The vulgarity of the insults hurled at Duncan50:00 The role of conservatives at StanfordRecorded March 26, 2022Links and ReadingsVideo of Stanford Law School Associate Dean Tirien Steinbach responding to Judge DuncanStanford Law School Dean Jenny Martinez’s letter about the Duncan eventJohn Stuart Mill’s book, On Liberty This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit glennloury.substack.comGlenn and John respond to questions from Substack subscribers.

0:00 John’s recent appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher7:23 The rigors of the lecture circuit10:29 The difference between equity and equality22:10 How do we know that African Americans are just as smart as everyone else?30:59 The new black bourgeoisie38:33 Standards in the arts are relative. But how relative?51:15 John sets the record straight on his dancing skillsRecorded March 19, 2022Links and ReadingsJohn’s most recent appearance on Real Time with Bill MaherGlenn and John April 14 UATX event in New YorkE. Franklin Frazier’s book, Black Bourgeoisie Glenn and John’s conversation with pseudonymous orchestra conductor Don BatonDon Baton’s Substack, The PodiumGlenn and John’s conversation with actor James BeamanJames Beaman’s Substack, The CornfieldGlenn and John’s conversation with Vincent LloydJohn’s NYT piece, “The High Art of Musical Theater”Walter Murphy’s song, “A Fifth of Beethoven” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

My guest this week is the distinguished physicist Sylvester “Jim” Gates. Jim was my colleague at Brown for years (he’s now at the University of Maryland), and we’re both alumni of MIT. Jim has made pathbreaking contributions to areas of physics that laymen like me can barely understand—he’s a deep, deep guy. He’s also got some thoughts on race and diversity in the sciences that give us an opportunity for some friendly debate. Jim begins by introducing supersymmetry, a subfield in physics he helped to define back in the ‘70s. It’s extremely complex stuff, but he breaks it down. We spend the bulk of our time, though, talking about race in the sciences. Jim stresses the value that diversity plays in an under-recognized aspect of scientific innovation: imagination. In Jim’s view, while tests are important, there are limits to what they can tell us about who is most likely to produce the next big advance in any scientific field, just as there are limits to what tests can tell us about the competency of any given student. He uses himself as an example of a student who was average when he started grad school but managed to transform himself into a cutting-edge researcher. He sees value in giving weight to diversity, and even to continuing affirmative action, but there are limits. He worries, for example, that DEI initiatives classifying basic practices like homework and demanding excellence as “white” are going too far, just as he thinks speakers with unpopular views should be met with debate rather than cancelation. It’s a pleasure to sit down with a scientist as distinguished as Jim Gates. I think you’ll be seeing more of him on The Glenn Show in the future. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from the Manhattan InstituteImproving our criminal-justice system means spending the requisite money to address America’s horrific and long-standing problem with criminal violence, argue Reihan Salam and Charles Fain Lehman.0:00 What led Jim to the forefront of physics 7:53 Jim explains supersymmetry 11:50 Is there racism in the sciences? 18:12 The role of culture and imagination in the sciences 28:47 The scientific “big bang” in Europe 33:03 How Jim accounts for racial disparities in test scores 49:35 Jim: “Genius” is a verb 54:18 Why Jim worries about DEI and cancelationRecorded February 6, 2023Links and ReadingsClarence Williams’s book, Technology and the Dream: Reflections on the Black Experience at MIT, 1941-1999Jim’s essay, “Equity vs. Excellence: A False Dichotomy in Science and Society”Thomas Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific RevolutionsKarl Popper, The Logic of Scientific DiscoveryPhysicist Stephon Alexander’s TGS appearanceStephon Alexander’s book, The Jazz of Physics: The Secret Link between Music and the Structure of the UniverseStephon Alexander’s book, Fear of a Black Universe: An Outsider’s Guide to the Future of Physics This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 John’s awkward run-in at the farmer’s market 5:40 Will people be reading Ibram X. Kendi in 2043? 17:03 Regret, doubt, and going against the tide 28:12 How Glenn and John negotiate their public profiles 40:50 Did Scott Adams deserve to get canceled? 52:47 What’s going on beneath the Scott Adams controversy?Recorded March 5, 2023Links and ReadingsIbram X. Kendi’s Zora Neale Hurston adaptation, Magnolia FlowerMelissa Harris Perry’s radio show, The TakeawayIshmael Reed’s novel, Reckless EyeballingIshmael Reed’s essay collection, Another Day at the Front This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Oded's new book, The Journey of Humanity: The Origins of Wealth and Inequality7:58 How inequality and growth emerged over the course of human history18:52 Breaking free of a 300,000-year-old stagnation cycle27:24 Humanity's phase shift into modernity33:39 Inequality and the formation of institutions44:18 The deep links between geography and institutions50:38 Africa, Asia, and the trials of diversityRecorded January 21, 2023Links and ReadingsOded’s new book, The Journey of Humanity: The Origins of Wealth and Inequality This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Woke religion or woke cult? 8:59 Does suffering confer authority on the sufferer? 12:47 A world without “anti-black domination” 21:27 Is there an alternative to the criminal justice system? 34:42 Domination and the purpose of the university 42:47 How Vincent’s Telluride Association seminar blew up 50:45 The narrowness of the social justice framework 54:14 Glenn and John’s encounters with fans 59:49 Should Black Studies exist?Recorded February 19, 2023Links and ReadingsVincent’s latest book, Black Dignity: The Struggle against DominationVincent’s Compact essay, “A Black Professor Trapped in Anti-Racist Hell”John’s NYT piece, “DeSantis May Have Been Right” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

Glenn Loury & Delano Squires (Blaze Media)0:00 Why Delano is a conservative7:06 Delano’s critique of Raphael Warnock and the “Afristocracy” 19:26 Delano: “The designer is the definer” 27:43 Abortion and black lives41:44 Are abortion rights necessary to protect women’s rights? 47:53 Delano: Government is no substitute for fatherhood53:48 Can we reweave the social fabric?Links and ReadingsDelano’s writing at Blaze MediaThe Woodson Center’s 1776 Unites Black and Married with KidsIan Rowe’s book, Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to Power This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 The “utter horror show” and incompetent policing of the Tyre Nichols killing7:52 The relatively peaceful reaction to the killing15:25 What set off the cops?21:53 Why Peter thinks police units like SCORPION should not be disbanded27:25 Should we get rid of qualified immunity?30:21 Policing and white supremacy40:45 Peter: We on the left have ceded law and order to the Trumpian right46:00 Tyre Nichols’s funeral53:59 John: I disagree with Sharpton, Crump, and Dyson, but they’re sincereLinks and ReadingsVideo of Memphis police officers beating Tyre NicholsAl Sharpton’s eulogy for NicholsBenjamin Crump speaks at Nichols’s funeralOfficial trailer for Spike Lee’s film, Bamboozled This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Ernie’s work as an organizer5:45 Tension, polarization, and reconciliation12:49 The drama of organizing18:21 The definition of power27:52 Ernesto’s work getting running water and sewers to border communities31:26 Market activity vs. market ideology41:31 What’s wrong with meritocracy?56:12 Does identitarianism stand in the way of reconciliation?Recorded January 19, 2023Links and ReadingsIndustrial Areas FoundationMy recent debate with Richard WolffArthur Okun’s book, Equality and Efficiency: A Big TradeoffDaniel Bell’s book, The Cultural Contradictions of CapitalismJohn Kenneth Galbraith’s book, American Capitalism: The Concept of Countervailing PowerMichael Sandel’s book, The Tyranny of Merit: What’s Become of the Common Good?Michael Sandel’s book, What Money Can’t Buy: The Moral Limits of MarketsMichael Sandel’s TGS appearanceFranz Fanon’s book, Black Skin, White Masks This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Glenn and John go to Cambridge9:25 The Hamline University Prophet Muhammad controversy 14:38 John: “Physics is physics”18:45 The Harlem Renaissance and Black Studies26:35 Is “getting past race” more trouble than it’s worth?36:51 Is Joe Biden patronizing black people?42:59 How a black musical changed the sound of Broadway Recorded January 20, 2023Links and ReadingsThe Equiano ProjectArnold Rampersand’s biography of Langston HughesJohn’s 2002 City Journal piece, “The Mau-Mauing at Harvard”Glenn and John’s recent conversation with Greg ThomasCaseen Gaines’s book, When Broadway Was Black This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Steven’s best-selling book, Unsettled: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn’t, and Why It Matters2:38 Steven: Concerns about catastrophic climate change “beggar belief”9:43 The complexities of climate change models15:07 Should we worry about rising sea levels?24:54 Hurricanes, tornados, and other extreme weather events29:59 Is a zero-emissions goal worth the cost?38:05 How to fix climate science45:02 Are the Paris Accords viable?48:13 The coming climate backlashRecorded January 3, 2023Links and ReadingsSteven’s book, Unsettled: What Climate Science Tells Us, What It Doesn’t, and Why It MattersSteven’s recent Wall Street Journal op-ed, “Will Climate Change Really Put New York Underwater?”Steven’s 2022 Wall Street Journal op-ed, “Greenland’s Melting Ice Is No Cause for Climate-Change Panic” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 A brief intro from Glenn1:03 The lionization of the lightweights5:45 The unified field theory of non-whiteness19:16 An honest conversation about crime27:51 Glenn’s birthday menu30:46 It’s time to choose a side41:46 Clarence Thomas, black icon44:54 Policing Joe Rogan51:56 By any means necessary? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week I’m very pleased to have with me the political philosopher Michael Sandel. I’ve been an avid reader of Michael’s work for decades, ever since coming across his first book, Liberalism and the Limits of Justice in the 1980s. Michael’s latest book, 2020’s The Tyranny of Merit, couldn’t be more timely. In it, Michael elaborates a critique of the meritocratic ideology that divides society into winners and losers, each of which has earned the fate that has befallen them. In our conversation, Michael lays out his argument in the book, which takes issue with the notion that an individual’s economic success or failure is an index of their character. The idea that the wealthy deserve their wealth and the poor deserve their poverty ignores the powerful economic forces that shape the outcomes of people’s lives, forces that operate well outside the control of the people affected by them. We discuss the distinction between profit and value, and the ways that the cultural and economic rise of tech, finance, and knowledge work has stripped the dignity and honor from formerly dignified and honorable professions. The rise of populism since Trump’s election serves as compelling evidence that society’s “losers” recognize the bad hand they’ve been dealt, but Michael’s critique of meritocracy has made him an influential figure in China as well, where meritocracy is arguably an even more powerful cultural force. It’s an honor to have such a distinguished figure on the show. I have the feeling that what Michael says here will ring true for many of my listeners, so I’m looking forward to your comments. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalSteven Malanga discusses why the middle class flees states that tax the rich. 0:00 Some of Michael’s key works 4:01 Meritocratic ideals and meritocratic fantasies 10:07 The animus against elites 16:26 Shouldn’t innovators reap their rewards? 23:09 Does more profit create more value? 28:42 Renewing the dignity of work 37:43 The uses of punishment 43:57 Our responsibility to national and global communities 46:17 Michael: Diversity has “monopolized” discussion of affirmative action 52:52 China’s reception of Michael’s critique of meritocracyRecorded November 18, 2022Links and Readings Michael’s book, Liberalism and the Limits of JusticeMichael’s book, What Money Can’t Buy: The Moral Limits of Markets Michael’s book, The Tyranny of Merit: Can We Find the Common Good?Michael Young’s book, The Rise of the MeritocracyIndustrial Areas Foundation This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week, John McWhorter and I are joined by Greg Thomas, senior fellow at the Institute for Cultural Evolution and CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project, to discuss one of our perennial Big Questions: Are we ready to deracialize? As you may have gathered from his previous TGS appearance, that’s the kind of issue Greg loves to sink his teeth into. But I do have some questions of my own for Greg. Let’s get into it.We begin with a little jazz talk. I ask Greg how he goes about incorporating the principles of the music into the workshops he leads with the Jazz Leadership Project. He goes on to explain how the history of jazz provides a way of understanding how we can begin to envision a society that moves past race. Greg uses the work of Albert Murray and Ralph Ellison as examples, but I want to know why I and other black people should have to abandon our racial self-identification? Surely this task can’t fall to black people alone. I suggest to Greg that he’s unjustifiably conflating black identity and the victim mentality—you can have the former without the latter. After a brief discussion about whiteness and deracialization, Greg departs, leaving John and me to do a quick review of 2022 and to look ahead to 2023. This is a fiery one! It’s our final episode of the year. Thank you all for watching, listening, and reading. John and I will be back in 2023. See you there!Featured Content from the Manhattan InstituteDaniel Di Martino released a report with reforms to America’s immigration system, which is turning off high-skilled immigrants due to slow processing and unneeded bureaucracy. 0:00 The principles of jazz 7:14 “Deracialization Now” 13:00 Becoming Omni-American 20:46 What’s wrong with racial identification? 25:36 Black victimization and cultural memory 35:15 The transformations of James Baldwin 42:10 Convincing white people to deracialize 48:40 Takeaways from 2022 55:33 2023’s big Supreme Court decisionsLinks and ReadingsJazz Leadership ProjectInstitute for Cultural Evolution BME CommunityGreg’s essay, “Deracialization Now” Albert Murray’s book, The Omni-Americans: Some Alternatives to the Folklore of White Supremacy John’s book, Talking Back, Talking Black: Truths about America’s Lingua FrancaKwame Anthony Appiah’s book, Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers Reconstruction.us Abigail Thernstrom’s book, Whose Votes Count?: Affirmative Action and Minority Voting Rights This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Why Glenn does The Glenn Show13:02 Glenn: “If I was going to vote for Trump, I wouldn’t tell you”19:21 “The cat is out of the bag” on election denial25:45 Modeling epistemic modesty31:12 Why is race such an important issue for Glenn?39:13 The Old Glenn and the New Glenn45:46 Confronting the past50:44 Putting “the funk” on the story of your lifeRecorded October 27, 2022Links and ReadingsHamish’s podcast, The Active VoiceEmily Oster’s SubstackRobert Wright’s Nonzero NewsletterNonzero’s YouTube channelMatt Taibbi’s SubstackMatt Taibbi’s book, Hate, Inc.: Why Today’s Media Makes Us Despise One AnotherBraver AngelsJohn McWhorter’s book, Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black AmericaBenjamin Crump’s book, Open Season: Legalized Genocide of Colored PeopleGlenn’s Quillette piece, “Unspeakable Truths about Racial Inequality in America”Glenn’s first Bloggingheads appearance, with Joshua Cohen in August 2007James Q. Wilson’s book, Thinking about CrimeRafael Mangual’s recent TGS appearanceAndrew Sullivan’s SubstackAlex Berenson’s Substack This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Why are we paying so much attention to Kanye West’s antisemitism?14:02 The two words you never say together23:28 Could widespread antisemitism take hold in the US?36:53 The mythological black past and the realities of the present48:12 How necessary is rootedness to the modern human experience?56:54 How we make race, how race makes usRecorded on December 10, 2022Links and ReadingsDave Chappelle’s SNL monologue on Kanye West and Kyrie IrvingJohn’s NYT piece, “It’s Too Darn Loud” Wilson Jeremiah Moses’s book, Afrotopia: The Roots of African American Popular HistoryOrlando Patterson’s essay, “Toward a Future That Has No Past – Reflections on the Fate of Blacks in America”Rogers Brubaker’s book, Ethnicity without GroupsGlenn and John’s May 2020 conversation about George Floyd This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week we’ve got something special for you here at The Glenn Show. In late October, I convened in person in New York City with the economist Richard Wolff for an extended debate on the comparative merits of capitalism and socialism. Some of you may have seen Rick’s previous appearance on TGS, where he joined John McWhorter and me for a similar debate. Rick and I both felt that we had more to say than that format allowed, so we agreed to meet face to face. Both of us are passionate defenders of our positions—capitalism for me and socialism for Rick—so we knew we needed a moderator to keep things on track. Luckily, I knew just the person: my lovely wife, LaJuan Loury. If you’re a regular viewer, you’ll know that LaJuan and I have some stark political differences; her views have more in common with Rick’s than with mine. (And if you’re a regular podcast listener, you’ll recognize her voice from the introduction to every episode.) Rick and I agreed that LaJuan would set the agenda, formulate the questions that we would debate, and moderate the conversation. I think you’ll agree that she more than rose to the challenge. As you might expect, this is a lively exchange. Rick and I have real differences in the ways we think about economics and politics. One thing on which we do agree is the necessity of having serious debates like this one in a civil and open manner. As TGS continues to grow, you can look forward to more content like this. You can also look forward, if all goes according to plan, to more LaJuan. And if you find yourself wishing for even more pushback on Rick’s positions than I offered, stay tuned. This Sunday’s edition of the newsletter will feature a bonus episode with the economist Gene Epstein, who offers a forceful rebuttal to Rick’s previous appearance on the show. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from the Manhattan Institute“Prejudice must be measured rigorously. Statistically. Disparity doesn’t necessarily imply racism. It may feel omnipresent, but it isn’t all-powerful. Skills matter most,” writes Roland Fryer. 0:00 Is capitalism a “winner take all” system? 12:54 Why does the word “socialism” make so many Americans afraid? 24:55 Has neoliberalism been beneficial for the US? 33:25 Capitalism’s role in rising living standards around the world 40:59 Are higher interest rates the only solution to inflation? 52:36 Can the market eradicate employment discrimination? 1:02:12 Why is the rent too damn high? 1:13;20 Can there be a kinder, gentler form of capitalism? 1:18:58 Closing statementsRecorded October 26, 2022Links and Readings Rick’s previous appearance on The Glenn ShowGary Becker’s book, The Economics of Discrimination Matthew Desmond’s book, Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 How the pandemic affected diversity in the theater10:24 James gets drawn into an “antiracist” meltdown during rehearsal21:08 James’s story of ostracism and Loving v. Virginia26:58 Juilliard students revolt39:19 A plea for mutual understanding in the theater47:57 A preview of things to come on The Glenn Show50:32 Glenn’s problem with “racial inequity”59:18 Getting through to “Donna”1:03:58 To speak your mind or to speak strategically?Recorded November 27, 2022Links and ReadingsJames’s homepageGlenn and John’s conversation with Don BatonJohn’s NYT piece, “‘Racism’ Without Racists”Ronald Ferguson’s speech from Glenn’s festschrift This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 What does “black identity” mean?4:53 Why Bob left the Civil Rights Movement8:04 Shelby: Our problem today is freedom, not racism15:36 Glenn: We can’t afford to give up on black collective goals21:30 Why Shelby wouldn’t sign a letter of support for Clarence Thomas30:13 Would freeing ourselves from race mean sacrificing collective action?39:10 The tactical efficacy of racial identification44:32 The struggle for human freedom50:46 Can we take pride in group achievements past?1:02:22 Kmele: We have a too-narrow sense of diversity1:07:20 Glenn: “The future is assimilation”1:13:03 Concluding statementsLinks and ReadingsKmele’s podcast, The Fifth ColumnThe Woodson CenterGlenn and Bob’s letter of support for Clarence ThomasThomas Chatterton Williams’s book, Self-Portrait in Black and White: Family, Fatherhood, and Rethinking Race This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Glenn’s culinary dilemma3:31 Why the Republican Party depresses John8:14 What’s the difference between Herschel Walker and John Fetterman?13:12 Glenn’s argument for voting Republican30:01 Woke theater’s “melodramatic agitprop”43:10 Kanye, Kyrie, and the Jews54:00 What’s “systemic,” “structural,” or “institutional” about racism?Recorded on November 13, 2022Links and ReadingsJohn’s NYT column, “Racism and Theater, Then and Now”Glenn and John’s conversation with orchestra conductor Don BatonWilson Jeremiah Moses’s book, Afrotopia: The Roots of African American Popular History This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

My guest this week, filmmaker Rob Montz, is an unlikely figure: a libertarian-leaning Brown University graduate who loves ‘90s rap and produces politically inflected documentaries that push back against the orthodoxies of the mainstream media. Rob has featured me in several of his works, and so I thought it was time to return the favor and have him on TGS.I begin by asking Rob how someone with a Brown pedigree ends up interested in such un-Brown-like figures as Charles Murray, Roy Beck, and Scott Atlas. Rob traces out his path from Brown to the Cato Institute to starting his own company, Good Kid Productions. He talks about some of his work, including a forthcoming doc about James Blake and Kyle Rittenhouse and one defending Roland Fryer from Harvard’s spurious sexual harassment charges. We then discuss the niches we’ve created for ourselves outside of the mainstream. Rob asks whether there’s a place for younger figures who can follow in my footsteps by achieving legitimacy both within academia and as a critic of the pieties that govern academic and political life in the US. We then move on to what’s shaping up to be one of the most crucial questions of the next two years: Trump or DeSantis? And finally, I ask Rob about his abiding affection for rap.Rob is doing important work as a filmmaker, and I recommend that everyone check out his YouTube channel. I’ll certainly be keeping an eye on it to see what comes next. (Note: This conversation took place on September 20, 2022, before the latest set of controversies around Kanye West emerged.)This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalRoland G. Fryer discusses affirmative action, why the current system doesn’t work, and suggests alternatives to the status quo.0:00 The appeals of immigration restrictionism 16:52 The 2013 Ray Kelly incident at Brown University 24:39 Rob’s forthcoming documentary about Jacob Blake and Kyle Rittenhouse 36:29 The response to Rob’s Roland Fryer doc 41:41 Why Rob and Glenn aren’t seeking the mainstream spotlight 47:20 Is there a “next Glenn Loury”? 55:10 Glenn’s course on race and policing be required? 1:02:19 Rob’s position on Trump 1:09:11 DeSantis vs. Trump 1:15:22 Rob’s love of ‘90s rapLinks and ReadingsGood Kid Productions on YouTubeRob’s interview with Roy BeckRay Kelly getting heckled at Brown in 2013Rob’s interview with Jay BhattacharyaRob’s mini-doc about Roland FryerRoland Fryer’s education company, ReconstructionRoland Fryer’s other company, Equal Opportunity Ventures Dexter Filkins’s New Yorker piece on Ron DeSantis This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

I’m back with John McWhorter for the latest installment of our ongoing conversation. John hit some technical snags in the first ten minutes of the recording, so apologies if the beginning sounds a little jumpy. After that, things smooth out. On to the conversation.We begin by talking about my memoir, which is now, after years of false starts, humming along nicely. But the process has forced me to confront some very dark episodes from my past, and they don’t always cast me in the most flattering light. As I explain, I think that presenting this unvarnished account of my own actions is necessary, both in the service of truth and in building credibility. John says he’ll probably never write a memoir, but I believe that if he sat down to do it, people would be more receptive than he thinks they would. After a rant about the “lightweights” against whom John and I often find ourselves pitted in the public square, we consider that we and people like us are finally making some headway in the conversation about race. Our views are no longer so marginal, and we may even be in, as John says, a “golden age of black heterodoxy.” And speaking of heterodoxy, I recount my recent debate with Shelby Steele, Robert Woodson, and Kmele Foster on “the ethics of racial identity” (watch this space for more soon). We finish the episode with accounts of the strange case of Jessica Krug’s racial masquerade and Darrell Brooks’s pathetic defense in his murder trial. We get deep in this one. As always, I’m looking forward to your comments. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from the Manhattan InstituteReihan Salam argues Congress should fund innovative public–private partnerships now to prepare for a future pandemic. 0:00 Walking through the valley of the shadow of death 5:20 Earning credibility through self-discrediting disclosure 16:29 The lionization of the lightweights 21:09 The golden age of black heterodoxy 26:01 The mainstreaming of Glenn and John 37:36 Glenn’s debate with Shelby Steele, Robert Woodson, and Kmele Foster 45:45 Are we ready to “get past race”? 56:03 The strange case of Jessica Krug 1:03:46 Darrell Brooks’s courtroom performanceLinks and ReadingsThe announcement for 2022 Philip Merrill Award for Outstanding Contributions to Liberal Arts EducationKmele Foster’s podcast, The Fifth Column Darrell Brooks’ closing statement at his trial This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

As I mentioned at the start of our latest subscriber-only Q&A episode, John McWhorter recently received the 2022 Philip Merrill Award for Outstanding Contributions to Liberal Arts Education, bestowed by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni. According to the ACTA, the award honors “individuals who have made an extraordinary contribution to liberal arts education, core curricula, and the teaching of Western Civilization and American history.” Perhaps I’m biased, but I can think of no one who more richly deserves such recognition, and so I was proud to be asked to deliver some remarks in tribute to John at a ceremony, which I offer below. (I’ve also recorded an audio and video version for those who prefer to listen and watch. The audio is available now, video will uploaded tomorrow.)Next month will mark the fifteenth anniversary of my first recorded dialogue with John. Since that first episode, the two of us have experienced much. The beginnings and ends of marriages, the loss of loved ones, the birth of children and grandchildren, not to mention changes in political orientation and new career paths. Through all of that, John and I have kept talking to each other. I think those conversations are important for the reasons I state below. But equally important to me is the friendship that has allowed us, despite our differences, to keep the dialogue going. Without that bond, we may have been able to continue the conversation, but it would not have meant nearly as much to me as it does. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.There are things that don’t—or can’t—get said when we talk about race in most venues in America. Those who have followed the 15-year-long conversation on this topic that I have been undertaking with John at The Glenn Show know what I’m talking about, whether it’s crime in black communities or out-of-wedlock birthrates, academic underperformance or the unbearable intellectual lightness of anti-racism agitation. In academia, in mainstream publications and media outlets, and increasingly in K-12 classrooms, what I’ve called “the bias narrative” holds sway. Negative aspects of black life are attributed almost entirely to the nation’s history of racial oppression, which is said to begin in the early seventeenth century and to continue unabated to this day. We are said to be a bandit society built on genocidal plundering undertaken by unrepentant racists.That’s one story you could tell. And if that story were just one of many circulating through our national discourse, it wouldn’t be the worst thing. But this “bias narrative” has become not just one of many stories. It’s now the only story on newspaper opinion pages, in scholarly journals, and in educational materials disseminated throughout our schools. It’s the story told by the White House. It’s the story that ramifies out from the most elite precincts of our country and shapes ordinary conversations and relations between individuals. Its grip on so many areas of the public imagination has become so tight that anyone challenging it is viewed with suspicion and, often enough, outright contempt. If an alternate explanation for black underperformance is proffered, it’s not the explanation that gets challenged but the individual making it. For to challenge this narrative, ipso facto, proves that one is a racist, or a deplorable or, if the challenger is a black man, an Uncle Tom.This situation is intellectually infantile and morally bankrupt. How we talk and think about race has consequences that can be measured not just in dollars and cents but in stagnant lives and dead bodies. So, responding with ad hominem attacks to any account of our current predicament that is not rooted in bias isn’t merely unfortunate, it is actively damaging. The stakes are enormously high here and the hour is late. Candor, integrity and courage are in short supply. Name-calling and character assassination have largely replaced open debate, while naked emperors, pseudo-academics, and bombastic demagogues command the public square.Enter John and Glenn. Or as I sometimes like to refer to our duo, enter the WokeBusters!!In Hans Christian Anderson’s story “The Emperor's New Clothes,” two swindlers promise to provide an emperor with magnificent new clothes that will be invisible to those who are too stupid or incompetent to see them. Officials see plainly see that no clothes are being produced on the swindler’s looms, but none of them will say anything to avoid being thought of as a fool. So when the emperor walks through the city in his new “clothes,” everyone can see that he is naked, but no one will be the first to say it. But then comes along an innocent child who, in his naïveté, is willing to defy this false consensus and speak out.The thing about the child in that story is not that he’s saying it. It’s not even that other people hear

0:00 How Rafael came to the Manhattan Institute7:33 Rafael’s new book, Criminal (In)Justice: What the Push for Decarceration and Depolicing Gets Wrong and Who It Hurts Most15:35 Is prison the right response to violent crime?26:20 Why Rafael believes in three-strikes-type sentencing guidelines31:42 Incarceration may lower crime, but is it just? 41:54 Rafael: Defunding the police is an indefensible idea49:34 Should we worry about racial disparities in the non-deadly use of force by police?1:00:08 Why Rafael’s father didn’t want him to become a copLinks and ReadingsRafael’s new book, Criminal (In)Justice: What the Push for Decarceration and Depolicing Gets Wrong and Who It Hurts MostRafael’s conversation with former NYPD and LAPD police commissioner William BrattonRoland Fryer and Rafael’s appearance on Peter Robinson’s Uncommon Knowledge podcast This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Is racist heckling at sporting events a real problem?15:13 John: “If you can’t be made fun of, you’re not part of the group”26:42 The LA County Federation of Labor racism scandal34:10 Why is there no Latino Michael Brown?41:22 Exalting (and exaggerating) the victim role47:47 Glenn’s daughter’s upcoming appearance on The Glenn Show49:48 Elite discrimination against AsiansLinks and ReadingsJohn’s NYT piece, “What a Report of Extreme Racism Teaches Us”Wilfred Reilly’s book, Hate Crime Hoax: How the Left Is Selling a Fake Race WarJohn’s NYT piece, “Stop Making Asian Americans Pay the Price for Campus Diversity” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Matt’s profile of the artist Rahmaan Statik11:26 Chicago’s “Great Unraveling” 20:41 Is Chicago slouching toward dystopia? 29:50 How will the near-end of cash bail affect crime in Chicago?33:24 The responsibilities of teachers, parents, and the police46:59 A snapshot of crime in Chicago52:26 Matt runs the numbers on Illinois’s out-of-wedlock births1:02:44 Lori Lightfoot’s prospects for reelectionLinks and ReadingsMatt’s book, What Next, Chicago?: Notes of a Pissed-Off Native SonWirepointsMatt’s profile with artist Rahmaan BarnesRahmaan Barnes’s artUniversity of Chicago Crime Lab’s Becoming a Man program This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 Is Florence Price’s music worthy of its current popularity?12:20 The decline of blind auditions18:27 Do diverse orchestras attract diverse audiences and musicians?23:26 Why Don is protecting his real identity27:00 Glenn delivers a soliloquy on humanity32:06 John: Eliminating blind auditions is “bat s**t crazy”38:22 Should John’s daughters benefit from affirmative action?Links and ReadingsDon’s Substack, The PodiumDon’s series on Florence Price: Part One, Part Two, Part ThreeFlorence Price’s Symphony No. 3Van Cliburn’s performance of Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto No. 2Anthony Tommasini’s NYT piece, “To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions”George Walker on YouTubeWilliam Dawson’s Negro Folk SymphonyWilliam Grant Still’s Symphony No. 1Claudia Goldin and Cecilia Rouse’s article “Orchestrating Impartiality: The Impact of ‘Blind’ Auditions on Female Musicians”John’s NYT piece, “Stop Making Asian Americans Pay the Price for Campus Diversity” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week I welcome Lara Bazelon back to the show. Lara is a lawyer, a professor of law, and the author of several books, including the excellent novel A Good Mother. Lara is also an energetic free speech advocate who has taken some principled stands that have, at times, put her at odds with other progressives.We begin by discussing Lara’s decision to represent a college student, “John,” who had been found culpable for the alleged rape of a fellow student. Lara explains how the Title IX regulations under which John was investigated unfairly stacked the deck against him. These regulations, while providing needed protections for women, can also allow for unfair results that can potentially destroy the lives of the accused without giving them a chance to defend themselves. As a feminist, Lara is committed to defending women’s equality, but she is also uncomfortable with the ways that some progressives seem willing to sacrifice free speech in the name of equity. This has led her to work with pro-free speech organizations that have, among other things, defended Amy Wax against Penn Law’s attempt to fire her. Lara finds many of Amy’s statements odious, but she does not believe Amy should be silenced. She’s even found common cause with conservatives with whom she has worked to overturn wrongful convictions.Lara is proof that, even in our current political environment, principled conservatives and progressives can act together in good faith to achieve some common goals. I admire her courage and conviction, and I’m very curious to know what all of you think.This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalJoanna Williams discusses how the concept of a motherhood pay “penalty” indicates a society with misplaced priorities. 0:00 Lara’s critique of Title IX adjudications 9:29 Why Lara defended a college student accused of rape 19:17 Lara’s cross-examination of the accuser 26:45 The trouble with “Believe Women” 36:11 What the Trump Administration got right about Title IX 39:26 Why Lara supports Amy Wax’s freedom of speech 50:25 Does Glenn still feel marginalized? 56:58 Finding common ground amidst political tribalism 1:01:12 Lara’s work on racial disparities in sexual assault casesLinks and ReadingsLara’s new book, Ambitious Like a Mother: Why Prioritizing Your Career Is Good for Your KidsLara’s book, Rectify: The Power of Restorative Justice After Wrongful ConvictionLara’s novel, A Good MotherLara’s keynote address at FIRE’s 2022 Student Network ConferenceUniversity of San Francisco’s Juvenile & Criminal Justice Law ClinicPenn Law Dean Theodore Ruger’s letter to the Faculty Senate regarding Amy WaxThe Academic Freedom Alliance’s letter in support of Amy Wax This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week, John McWhorter and I welcome special guest Ian Rowe to TGS. Ian is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, the founder and CEO of Vertex Enterprise Academies, and author of the new book Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to Power. Ian is doing outstanding work establishing charter schools throughout New York City, so John and I invited him on to discuss his efforts, among other topics. We begin by discussing how the Rodney King beating and the LA riots that followed the acquittal of the officers involved led Ian and Nique Fajors to make a documentary, which, decades later, developed into their podcast Invisible Men. Ian thinks that two related and competing narratives—“blame the system” and “blame the victim”—place pressure on black teens and young men, and his work at the Vertex Enterprise Academies’ charter schools tries to help them grow in another direction. Ian stresses marriage as a central component in long-term success, but I push him to explain how marriage can correct for dysfunctional patterns present in husband and wife that have been present since childhood. John introduces the issue of academic success and “acting white”—can Ian’s schools overcome cultural barriers to black academic excellence? Ian then talks more generally about the ins and outs of running a group of charter schools in New York and their recent legal victory over a teacher’s union that tried to block their funding. And finally, we talk about the recent Old Parkland Conference, which Ian and I had a hand in organizing. He’s got some exciting things planned for the next phase in that project.Ian is out there on the front lines of education reform. It’s heartening to see someone with his intelligence and drive fighting the good fight. I’m very much looking forward to your comments on this one. Featured Content from City JournalJason Riley discusses the upcoming midterm elections, analyzing the impact of this summer’s SCOTUS decision on Roe and the prospects for the GOP to retake power in DC. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 How Rodney King led to Ian’s podcast, Invisible Men 7:31 Blaming the system and blaming the victim 13:20 Ian: I run schools to show my students they can do hard things 17:16 What’s so special about marriage? 29:24 Glenn: Right living is its own reward 41:34 The problem of success and “blackness” 40:26 Ian’s experience running Vertex 45:41 How Ian funds his schools 55:46 The bureaucratic opposition to charter schools 58:47 What comes after the Old Parkland Conference?Links and ReadingsIan’s book, Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to PowerIan’s charter school group, Vertex Partnership AcademiesIan and Nique Fajors’s podcast, The Invisible MenIan and Naomi Schaefer Riley’s podcast, Are You Kidding Me?Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell speak at the 1980 Fairmont Conference Video from the Old Parkland Conference Glenn, Ian, and Robert Woodson’s appearance on Peter Robinson’s Uncommon Knowledge This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

Source post0:00 Introducing Glenn Loury8:50 What is “social capital”?19:24 Racial inequality and self-segregation 30:01 Glenn: “The jig is up” on affirmative action39:45 Balancing preferences and colorblindness 45:35 Rethinking the welfare state55:41 Why Glenn’s forthcoming memoir is titled The Enemy Within This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

0:00 What’s on the menu for Glenn’s birthday party 4:49 John’s Twitter spat with Ibram X. Kendi 14:05 What do we lose by changing testing standards? 20:39 Glenn: If groups matter, then culture matters 32:04 How to prove a racist wrong 39:19 The ballad of Glenn and Woody 51:50 Mitchell S. Jackson’s Esquire essay about Clarence ThomasLinks and Readings John and Ibram X. Kendi on Twitter, part oneJohn and Ibram X. Kendi on Twitter, part two John’s NYT piece, “Lower Black and Latino Pass Rates Don’t Make a Test Racist” John’s NYT piece, “Proving Racists Wrong Is Not a Trivial Pursuit”Glenn’s 1992 Commentary essay, “Free at Last?”This American Life segment on Glenn and WoodyMitchell S. Jackson’s Esquire essay, “Looking for Clarence Thomas”Barry Bearak’s 1997 NYT profile of Ward Connerly This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

Normally this week I would post a conversation with John McWhorter. However, due to unforeseen circumstances, we were unable to record. He’ll be back next week. This week, I’m presenting my conversation with Steve McIntosh, President, Co-Founder, and Director of the Institute for Cultural Evolution. I’ve already spoken with two ICE fellows this year—Stephanie Lepp and Greg Thomas—so this TGS episode constitutes a continuation of the series. I ask Steve about his latest book, Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself, which he delivers as a primer on “cultural evolution.” He traces out a historical narrative that takes us from traditionalism to modernity to our present moment of “progressive postmodernity,” and I ask him whether the more excessive elements of our era should be fought or viewed as a stepping stone to the next phase of cultural development. Steve’s answer: “both.” He discusses his account of the last 300 years mostly in terms of Europe and North America, so I ask him how the rise of East Asia fits into the evolutionary processes he discusses. The recent attack on Salman Rushdie leads me to wonder how a cultural evolutionist framework can help us deal with radically anti-modern movements like violent Islamic fundamentalism, and Steve advocates for the promotion of moderate forms of Islam that are in-step with the rest of the world. Steve includes worrying identitarian movements like Black Lives Matter and Kendiesque anti-racism within the progressive postmodern paradigm, but he also thinks that many good things—like gay rights—have come out of it. We close our conversation by considering what a cultural evolutionist has to say about the increasingly dire political polarization we’re experiencing in the US and development within African American communities. I don’t know that I’m wholly convinced by the grand historical narrative Steve offers, but we need as many new ideas as we can get in the discourse, and cultural evolution does have many virtues (like its praise of economic liberty). I look forward to reading your comments. Featured Content from City JournalStephen Eide discusses homelessness in New York City, the immigration related surge in shelters, and Mayor Adams sparring with Texas Governor Abbot. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 A scheduling announcement from Glenn 1:28 Steve's latest book, Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself 7:54 From modernity to progressive postmodernism 15:18 Are we in the midst of cultural evolution or culture war? 19:02 The work of the Institute for Cultural Evolution 30:52 “Modernist consciousness” in East Asia 37:07 Steve: “Force is necessary but not sufficient” to combat violent Islamic fundamentalism 44:01 The positive side of progressive postmodernism 49:15 Can cultural evolution overcome political polarization in the US? 55:38 A cultural evolutionary perspective on the African American development narrative Links and ReadingsInstitute for Cultural EvolutionSteve's latest book, Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself Steve’s book with John Mackey and Carter Phipps, Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity Through BusinessBari Weiss’s recent speech to University of Austin studentsGlenn and John McWhorter’s conversation with Richard WolffSteve’s white paper on political polarization in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo massacre This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week, one of the most controversial TGS guests of all time returns: Penn Law professor Amy Wax. She’s currently in a dire predicament. Her job is on the line. Whatever you think of Amy’s positions, there are issues at play in her case that have implications for people of all political persuasions, and she deserves to be heard out. Amy begins by recounting the events that have led up to her conflict with the administration at Penn Law and taking issue with the charges leveled at her by the school’s dean, Theodore Ruger. Some of those charges are quite serious: racism, sexism, and xenophobia. But Amy contends that they are overblown and implausible. Amy thinks this conflict began when she questioned the efficacy and ethics of affirmative action in public. If the LSATs and other standardized tests predict classroom performance, we shouldn’t be surprised when students admitted with low test scores don’t perform well. That’s a perfectly logical position, yet Amy has been pilloried for taking it. And I agree with her! But I tell her I do feel a little uncomfortable when I’m confronted by students who take my analysis of affirmative action personally. It’s clear that, even though Amy has tenure, her job is at risk Despite the very strong free speech protections guaranteed by tenure, she may be fired for speaking her mind in public. While I don’t agree with her on many issues, I think that would be a disaster. It could open the door to the evisceration of free inquiry within the American university. Amy has said and done many controversial things, including inviting the white nationalist Jared Taylor to speak with to her students. But Amy teaches a course on conservative political and legal thought, and Taylor is an influential figure in some far-right circles. I do press Amy on this, because she has espoused interest in the kind race realism associated with Taylor, and she argues that his ideas at least merit serious consideration.Amy and I are friends, but it wasn’t always so. I recall our first encounter, when she challenged some of my claims about race and mass incarceration. I wasn’t pleased at the time, but I’m now glad she had the freedom to make the comments she made (even though I still think I’m right). As she says, reality is often upsetting and uncomfortable, and if we choose to hide our heads in the sand rather than confronting reality, we can’t say we’re interested in the truth. That I do agree with. And I stand with her in fight to pursue the truth, even if we differ on where it may be found. If you want to support her, she provides some ways you can do that.The comments section is always explosive after Amy appears on TGS, so I’m looking forward to seeing what debates emerge. Let me know what you think!This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalCharles Fain Lehman & Renu Mukherjee on why support for the Democratic Party among high-skilled Asian-Americans is not immutable, which opens opportunities for Republican lawmakers to grow their voter base.0:00 Amy’s recent conflict with the Penn Law School administration 7:38 Amy responds to her dean’s charges of racism, sexism, and xenophobia 16:38 Should we take students’ feelings into account when discussing race and admissions? 27:34 Glenn: If Amy is fired, it will be an outrage beyond belief 34:53 Why Amy invited Jared Taylor to speak with her students 44:28 Amy’s defense of race realism’s legitimacy 50:25 Glenn and Amy’s first encounter 53:36 Amy: Sometimes reality is upsetting and offensive 58:58 How to help AmyLinks and ReadingsDean Theodor Ruger’s letter to the Penn Faculty Senate asking for a review of Amy’s conductAmy’s past conversations with Glenn Donate to Amy’s legal defense fund This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

John McWhorter is back, reporting from his Catskills bungalow for the latest installment in our ongoing conversation. Let’s get into it. While I’m at home rather than a bungalow, I’m fresh off a wonderful vacation in North Carolina, which I spent surrounded by my wife, children, and grandchildren. Two of my granddaughters are now young women in college and law school, and they had some questions for me about some of the public positions I’ve taken. I recount the discussions I had with them about the Harvard-UNC affirmative action case and the Supreme Court’s abortion ruling. John recounts how calls for proportionate racial representation in the performing arts are leading not only to backstage disruptions but to the elevation of theatrical works that, in John’s view, lack quality but have the “right” political message.John thinks that intellectual insecurity sometimes plays a part in calls for “racial reckoning,” especially on campus. He notes that he never sees his most high-achieving and intellectually confident black students at Columbia involving themselves in campus activism of that kind, and I’ve had the same experience at Brown. All John’s stories about attempts to accommodate racial uprisings within the performing arts makes me wonder when someone is going to say “enough is enough.” Democratic politicians don’t seem willing to do it, but what about CEOs, heads of foundations, and other leaders in the private sector? It’s time for them to opt out of the DEI game.We end by returning again to the arts. John has written an excellent column arguing that, in most cases, we shouldn’t let the flawed personal views of artists stop us from enjoying their art. And we close with the disturbing case of Salman Rushdie, who is still in the hospital following last week’s attempt on his life.As always, I look forward to reading your comments.This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from Manhattan Institute ScholarsOn this episode of the Hoover Institution’s Uncommon Knowledge, Peter Robinson talks with Manhattan Institute fellows Roland Fryer and Rafael Mangual about what is and is not working in policing and law enforcement in the U.S. 0:00 A report on the Loury family reunion 9:22 Identity politics onstage and backstage 19:22 Insecurity-driven campus grievance 27:01 Glenn: When will non-right-wing leaders say “Enough!” to racial grievance? 36:16 John: People with ugly opinions can also produce great art … 52:35 … but are there significant figures whose views disqualify them from public honor? 56:38 Considering fundamentalist Islam and human nature after the Salman Rushdie assaultLinks and Readings We See You, White American Theater’s “Principles for Building Anti-Racist Theatre Systems”New York City Center Encore!’s page for The LifeJames Baldwin’s 1949 essay, “Everybody’s Protest Novel”John’s NYT column, “Let’s Have Fewer Cancellations. Let People Take Their Lumps, Then Move On.”James Baldwin and William F. Buckley’s 1965 debate at Cambridge UniversityJames Baldwin’s 1962 essay, “Letter from a Region in My Mind” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

As I announced last week, we here at the newsletter and The Glenn Show have a new partner: the Manhattan Institute. I realize some of you may not be familiar with the Institute’s work and point of view, so today I’ve got Manhattan Institute President Reihan Salam on the show to talk about what the Institute does and how some of its scholars and fellows are thinking about the problems facing New York and other American cities today. The Manhattan Institute is often regarded as a conservative place, but as you’ll hear, there’s nothing predictable or partisan about how Reihan understands those problems and their potential solutions. Reihan begins by talking a bit about how he first became aware of me and my work. He’s a formidable thinker himself, so I have to say I’m pretty flattered! After discussing how he came to take on his current role at the Manhattan Institute, Reihan talks about some of the changes in crime rates in US cities necessitate a renewed focus on public safety. New York City Mayor Eric Adams, a Democrat, has shifted more resources to public safety-oriented initiatives. Reihan talks about what that shift might mean for the city. In many ways, Adams’s approach to governing doesn’t line up with Democratic national policy positions, and Reihan talks about how dissenters within political parties and movements (both left and right) can create needed change. Some of that change, Reihan argues, needs to come from more investment in certain government-run agencies, including those that comprise the criminal justice system. For example, he wants to see safer streets for ordinary citizens but also safer prisons for the incarcerated. The conversation moves on to education, and Reihan describes what he sees as the positive developments in New York schools under Michael Bloomberg, which languished under Bill de Blasio’s mayorship. And finally, we turn to race matters. Reihan is deeply skeptical that flattening out racial and ethnic identity under the banner of “BIPOC” actually helps ethnic minority communities, and he’s equally skeptical of the ways that racial identity has become central to how so many people think of themselves today. I agree, but I also wouldn’t want to discard the valuable histories and traditions that go along with our conception of race and identity. Maybe I want it both ways, but shouldn’t I be able to have that? If this conversation is any indication, TGS and MI have got a long, fruitful collaboration ahead of us. I’m looking forward to all the good work to come. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.Featured Content from City JournalRenu Mukherjee on San Franscisco's misguided effort to do away with standardized testing for its most selective public high school—how it undermined merit and hurt many of the kids it intended to help. 0:00 Glenn’s impact on Reihan 5:38 How Reihan became president of the Manhattan Institute 11:15 What is the Manhattan Institute’s relationship to Eric Adams’s administration? 18:40 The value of dissenters 22:07 Reihan: We’ve underinvested in our criminal justice system 29:31 What constitutes a quality high school education? 36:38 Michael Bloomberg’s education initiatives 41:58 Reihan’s concerns about racial reification 50:08 The uses and abuses of racial identityLinks and ReadingsTariq Modood, Steven Teles, and Glenn’s book, Ethnicity, Social Mobility, and Public Policy: Comparing the US and UKRafael Mangual’s book, Criminal (In)Justice: What the Push for Decarceration and Depolicing Gets Wrong and Who It Hurts MostIsmail K. White and Chryl N. Laird’s book, Steadfast Democrats: How Social Forces Shape Black Political BehaviorMatt Feeney’s book, Little Platoons: A Defense of Family in a Competitive Age This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week on The Glenn Show, John McWhorter and I are joined by Richard Wolff, Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst and Visiting Professor of International Affairs at the the New School. Richard is Marxian in his orientation and I am not, so we do some debating here. And while we may not agree on much as far as economics goes, we do share some concerns about the direction of the left in this country. Before the conversation, I make an important announcement: Beginning today, I’m partnering with the Manhattan Institute to bring you The Glenn Show and this newsletter. I lay out what this means in my introduction and in conversation with John at the end of the show, but here are two important takeaways. First, I will maintain full editorial independence over all the content on the podcast and at the newsletter. And second, we’re lowering the cost of the newsletter. For monthly subscribers, fees will drop from $7/month to $6/month. The price of an annual subscription will drop even more substantially, from $70/year to $50/year. For those of you who already have an annual subscription, we’ll extend it by three months to make up the difference. I’m having success here at TGS, and I want to share it with you.And with that, let’s get into it. Richard begins by describing his student days and early career, when he was relatively quiet about his Marxism, the post-Occupy Wall Street environment that made him into a public intellectual, and his origins in Youngstown, Ohio, where the flight of capital devastated the formerly thriving industrial city. He argues that capitalism is not only bad for democracy but inherently anti-democratic, since it allows unelected CEOs and boards of directors to determine the economic fate of huge swathes of the populace. I take some issue with this. First, I ask Richard to respond to Friedrich von Hayek’s claim that markets will always allocate information and resources more efficiently than centrally planned economies. Second, I raise the point that business owners are entering into a contract with employees. It’s a standard exchange of goods and services. Why should employees have any right to the business owner’s property beyond an agreed-upon wage or salary? There is also the matter of socialism’s historical track record, which Richard defends. Richard and I do find some common ground in our skepticism toward the contemporary left, which sometimes seems to have abandoned the working class in favor of identity politics. Once Richard departs, John and I discuss my new partnership with the Manhattan Institute. He and I both want to make clear that John himself is not employed by the Manhattan Institute, though he used to be, and he still respects what they do. There’s a lot happening in this episode and in TGS World. As always, I look forward to reading your comments.This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 A special announcement from Glenn 3:47 Richard’s journey from quiet Marxist to public intellectual 9:08 Why Youngstown, Ohio was left behind 12:04 Richard: Capitalist ownership is inherently anti-democratic 15:41 Richard’s critique of Hayekian libertarianism 21:44 Pecuniary externalities vs. objective externalities 23:49 Socialism’s historical track record 31:07 Employees as stakeholders 34:36 The rise of the right in the wake of the New Deal and WWII 42:00 The Glenn Show’s new partnership with the Manhattan InstituteLinks and ReadingsThe Manhattan InstituteRichard’s book (with Stephen Resnick), Class Theory and History: Capitalism and Communism in the USSR Glenn and John on Herschel WalkerClifton Roscoe’s critique of Glenn and John on Herschel WalkerJohn’s NYT column about Walker This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

This week, we’re getting into cosmic terrain here on The Glenn Show with my guest and Brown University colleague, theoretical physicist Stephon Alexander.Steph takes his inspiration not just from other physicists but from artists and musicians as well. And I can report from personal experience that he is a tremendous jazz saxophonist. For him, there’s nothing superficial about the relationship between science and art. His first book, The Jazz of Physics, explores the connection between music and the elemental forces that hold our universe together. Steph’s project reminds me of one of my favorite books, Douglas Hofstadter’s Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, which explores the role of self-reference in science, art, and music. Apparently I’m on the money, and Steph explains the central role of self-reference in his books. Steph and I both work in quantitative fields that demand measurable excellence of their participants, so I ask Steph what he thinks of racial and ethnic disparities in math-heavy areas of study. He describes his own experience as a teacher and as an undergrad, and how he learned that he would not only have to master the material but overcome lowered expectations that would only have held him back. Steph takes us through his latest book, Fear of a Black Universe: An Outsider’s Guide to the Future of Physics, which looks at the role of innovative “outsiders” (among whom Steph counts himself). Blacks may be “outsiders” in physics now, but the same was once true of Jews, and Steph talks about the inspiration he takes from the great Jewish physicists. This leads us to discuss some of my own ideas about stigma, and we have a good laugh about the times when stigma has led people to underestimate us. And finally, the question you’ve all been waiting for: What exactly is the Higgs boson, and why is its discovery such a big deal? I’ve learned a ton from talking to Steph, and I hope you will, too. I’m sure this isn’t the last time you’ll see him on TGS. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 Glenn and Steph’s jam session 2:29 Steph’s adventures in the multiverse 6:40 The parallels between black art and physics 12:34 The centrality of self-reference in Steph’s work 18:26 Is there a racial dimension to how excellence reveals itself in students? 32:34 How Steph learned to level up 41:04 Steph’s new book, Fear of a Black Universe: An Outsider’s Guide to the Future of Physics 48:50 Steph’s admiration for prior generations of Jewish physicists 56:48 How Glenn and Steph navigate stigma 1:10:43 What is the Higgs boson?Links and ReadingsSteph’s first book, The Jazz of Physics: The Secret Link between Music and the Structure of the UniverseSteph’s latest book, Fear of a Black Universe: An Outsider’s Guide to the Future of PhysicsUltramagnetic MCs’ “Watch Me Now”Douglas Hofstadter’s book, Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden BraidGlenn’s book, The Anatomy of Racial Inequality This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

John McWhorter is back again for one of our twice-monthly conversations. This is a hot one, so let’s get into it. In this week’s episode, we discuss three controversial figures: Herschel Walker, Clarence Thomas, and Amy Wax. We begin with John’s outstanding column about Walker, the Republican candidate for Senate in Georgia. John pulls no punches. He sees Walker as an insultingly underqualified contender meant solely to attract Georgia’s sizable black vote. John argues that Walker seems to have no meaningful knowledge of any relevant policy issue, and he’s apparently uninterested in trying to make it seem like he does. I do my best to present the case for Walker, but John does have a point. Robert Woodson and I wrote an open letter decrying recent ugly, racist (let me say again, racist) attacks on Justice Clarence Thomas, and John has signed on. I argue that, no matter what you think of Thomas’s conservatism, he is undeniably a towering figure in American jurisprudence. His influence and ideas will be felt for generations, and his life story as an African American born under Jim Crow who has risen to the pinnacle of the legal system is iconic. The attempt to write him out of black history just because he’s a conservative is disgraceful. It’s hard to find someone who has been the subject of more controversy than Thomas, but my friend Amy Wax has got to be in the running for second place. John is disturbed by reports that Amy allegedly brings some of her edgier ideas about race into the classroom when she teaches. I certainly don’t endorse all of Amy’s positions, and I think that one must be especially thoughtful when speaking in front of a classroom. But I can’t abide the idea that Amy would be punished simply for holding views that some people don’t like. That’s why I’m inviting her back to The Glenn Show.I’m sure everyone’s going to have a lot to say about this one. I can’t wait to read your comments, so fire away!This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 John: Republicans’ elevation of Herschel Walker is an insult 9:43 If Walker is so inept, why does he have so much support? 15:16 Where’s the outrage over racist attacks on Clarence Thomas? 24:55 Thomas’s historical significance 36:03 The Clarence Thomas (and Al Sharpton) we don’t see 41:31 Are Amy Wax’s views beyond the pale? 53:59 John: “Amy should know better” 1:09:13 Amy Wax’s return to The Glenn Show Links and ReadingsJohn’s NYT column, “When Republicans Backed Herschel Walker, They Embraced a Double Standard”Glenn and Robert Woodson’s open letter on Clarence ThomasThurgood Marshall’s Bicentennial Speech Gerald Early’s Common Reader essay, “Black Conservatives Explain It All! or Princes and Powers 2.0”Glenn’s most recent conversation with Amy WaxAmy Wax’s book, Race, Wrongs, and Remedies: Group Justice in the 21st CenturyGlenn’s Daily Pennsylvanian column in support of Amy Wax This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

My guest this week is my friend Rajiv Sethi. Rajiv is Professor of Economics at Barnard College, Columbia University and External Professor at the Santa Fe Institute, and he writes an occasional newsletter at Imperfect Information. He’s published widely on problems of crime and segregation, among many other topics, and as you’ll hear in this conversation, he’s done some deep thinking about an area that is sadly pertinent to our society today: gun violence. I first ask Rajiv to catch me up on how economists are thinking about the state of financial markets today, and in short, things aren’t looking good. You don’t need a PhD in economics to know that. Just look at your stock portfolio. But Rajiv makes an interesting connection between the economist John Kenneth Galbraith’s analysis of the stock market crash of 1929 and the ongoing, much-publicized cryptocurrency crash. Rajiv talks about his blogging and his Substack, including his critique of Sundhil Mullainathan’s analysis of bias and police violence. We move on to the recent Supreme Court gun ruling and attempts by gun control advocates to float policies intended to reduce gun violence. Rajiv is critical of many of these policies, not because he doesn’t want to reduce gun violence but because he thinks the policies won’t be consequential enough. Much gun violence takes place amongst African Americans, but Rajiv wants to separate, to de-essentialize, race and violence. He draws on some of my own work on these issues to ask how we can look at the conditions that render acts of violence in high-crime areas, in some sense, rational. Certain conditions must make violence seem like the right solution to a given problem. Rajiv argues that we’re all—all Americans—involved in creating those conditions, and so we cannot simply say that the problems of high-crime black communities are their problems and not ours. I’m very much against racial essentialism, but we see it everywhere, including in our school with CRT-influenced policies and practices. While Rajiv acknowledges the excesses, he sees an equal threat coming from the anti-CRT backlash, and points to the case of Cecilia Lewis as an example. Along the same lines, he thinks that many critiques of the 1619 Project miss something important about the true depth and length of American history. And finally, we return to the problem of gun violence and bias in policing. Rajiv’s got an interesting idea to disincentivize illegal gun sales and some theories about why we see such stark racial disparities in the commission of gun crimes. Yesterday, I posted a conversation with John McWhorter that addressed civil and constructive disagreement. Rajiv and I certainly disagree about some things, but his arguments can’t simply be brushed aside. I’m quite interested to know what you all think of this one. Let me know!This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 The cryptocurrency bezzle 6:52 Rajiv’s critique of the contact hypothesis 12:53 Will popular proposed gun control measures meaningfully reduce homicides? 19:08 Can we talk about culture without becoming essentialists? 30:19 Rajiv: I find self-censorship and anti-CRT mobs equally disturbing 43:28 Debating the 1619 Project 51:00 Rajiv’s idea to reduce illegal firearm sales: gun insurance 1:02:35 Why do we see such racial disparities in gun violence? Rajiv has some theories 1:11:02 What did we learn from the second Justice Department investigation in Ferguson? Links and ReadingsJohn Kenneth Galbraith’s book, The Great Crash 1929Rajiv’s Substack, Imperfect InformationRajiv’s post about The Anatomy of Racial InequalitySendhil Mullainathan’s NYT piece, “Police Killings of Blacks: Here Is What the Data Say” Rajiv’s post about Mullainathan’s claims Rajiv and Brendan O’Flaherty’s book, Shadows of Doubt: Stereotypes, Crime, and the Pursuit of JusticeRajiv’s conversation about guns with Bari Weiss and David French Glenn and Hanming Fang’s paper, “‘Dysfunctional Identities’ Can Be Rational” Glenn’s Cato Unbound essay, “A Nation of Jailers” and responses Nicole Carr’s ProPublica piece, “White Parents Rallied to Chase a Black Educator Out of Town. Then, They Followed Her to the Next One.” Ralph Ellison’s essay, “What America Would Be Like Without Blacks” Albert Murray, The Omni-Americans: Some Alternatives to the Folklore of White SupremacyJill Leovy’s book, Ghettoside: A True Story of Murder in AmericaGlenn’s conversation with Robert Woodson and Sylvia Bennett-Stone Voices of Black Mothers United This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe

Last month, John McWhorter and I participated in Heterodox Academy’s 2022 conference in Denver, Colorado. We spoke in front of an audience and discussed how to model constructive disagreement. But before that, we had a bit of a warm-up session with Zach Rausch, host of the Heterodox Out Loud podcast. Zach had us in to talk about our long relationship as conversation partners, civil discourse, and the purpose of the university. Newer listeners may be interested to hear about my “origin story” with John. While we’re good friends now, that wasn’t always the case. We’ve had our ups and downs, and we’ve switched sides on some issues. (Here’s our first recorded conversation, from November 2007.) But we keep coming back because we enjoy talking to each other too much to quit, and because we believe if we don’t have the kind of conversations we have, they might not happen at all. This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.JOHN MCWHORTER: There's another thing actually, which is, you should distrust if you can look into yourself, a feeling that you're arguing for a point because doing so is what makes you a good person. You should strive to get away from the belly and stick with the head.GLENN LOURY: We come to the university as black or white or Latino or gay or trans. That's not who we are. Our essence is much broader and finer and deeper and richer and human than that. ZACH RAUSCH: Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on Heterodox Out Loud. I'm Zach Rausch. Today, a special conversation with both of them. This was recorded at Heterodox Academy's 2022 Conference in Denver. For those who could not be at the conference, we got your back. We recorded a few exclusive conversations with our featured speakers to give you a taste of the extraordinary conversations that were had. Our guests today are Glenn Loury, professor of the Social Sciences and Economics at Brown University, and John McWhorter, professor of Linguistics at Columbia University. John has authored over 20 books on issues of race and language and writes a widely read biweekly newsletter for the New York Times. Glenn has published numerous influential books on race, inequality, and economics. He's also the well-known host of the podcast The Glenn Show on BloggingheadsTV, where John is a regular guest. In our interview, we discuss the future of higher education and how we can improve our collective discourse. It was recorded on the morning of their talk at the conference. I asked Glenn what they'd be discussing. GLENN LOURY: I haven't got any idea. All I know is that the subject matter is how do you have productive conversations? I take it that John and I, in our podcast practice, model productive conversation. And so we're going to be reviewing the nuts and bolts and the foundation of how it is that we're able to discuss contentious matters with one another productively. In 2007, a guy called Josh Cohen, a philosopher at Stanford, invited me onto Robert Wright's platform Bloggingheads to discuss some lectures that I had given on mass incarceration at Stanford that year. That was my first exposure to any kind of podcasting. I came on. I had a couple of conversations with Josh. They were well received. Bob Wright invited me to be a regular contributor to his platform, hosting a variety of people of my choosing, and John was one of those people. This is 2007, at the height of the Democratic Party primary contest, which Barack Obama ultimately won. So John and I started having conversations prompted by the events of the day around questions of race. And my association with Bloggingheads developed such that I was doing a post once a week or so at Bloggingheads, and John would be a guest once a month or so on the platform that I was developing with Robert Wright at Bloggingheads. And that went on from 2007 continuously until the present day. We've expanded our reach, moved from the Bloggingheads platform to Patreon to Substack, and talk now every other week on a regularly scheduled basis, John and I, the black guys. JOHN MCWHORTER: Glenn and I were not exactly chummy for a lot of the aughts, and, not enemies, but we were not warm and fuzzy. And when we had our first conversation, it was amidst that context, and I think both of us knew it. And in terms of the fact that apparently Glenn and I have conversations that somebody might want to model their own after, which is something that I don't think either one of us ever thought about consciously, but that's what people seem to see, I think part of the way that probably we may have something to offer in that is that for our first session, it's not like it was two friends talking. We were coming from different places, and yet neither one of us were angry. It didn't get ugly. And so, for example, to take an instructive contrast—and this has nothing to do with settling scores—during that same era

A couple weeks ago, The Glenn Show returned to New York’s Comedy Cellar. This time I was joined by John McWhorter and a trio of fantastic comics: Sherrod Small, Jon Laster, and Nimesh Patel. There were a lot of laughs and a lot big questions addressed, so let’s get into it.John and I begin with a comment left on one of our previous conversations from an economically disadvantaged white man who recounted his frustrated attempts to get into law school. Affirmative action helps elevate women and racial minorities, but shouldn’t it focus more on socioeconomic factors than “diversity”? John and I are always trying to move the needle on issues like this, and it’s sometimes hard to tell whether our conversations are having an effect. The crowd seems to think they are! John brings up charter schools, and I advance an argument in favor of more school choice. We then move onto racial disparities. I think that most people know on some level that “systemic racism” is not really the cause of racial disparities in the commission of violent crimes, and yet it’s so hard to have an honest conversation about it in casual circumstances. John argues that the real core of the race debate in America has to do with the relationship between black people and the police, at which point Sherrod, Nimesh, and Jon come out to join us. Laster tells us about the Jon Laster Challenge, in which he asked black men he knew to recount bad run-ins with the police and his app, which promotes black-owned businesses. Next, Sherrod shows off his crowd work chops and riffs with the audience. One audience member asks what draws the people who become police to the job, and I ask Jon what he really thinks we should do about violent crime in black communities. Finally, we end the event with some questions from the audience. I had a a lot of fun up there onstage, and I was so happy to meet the subscribers who came up to say hello afterward. If you missed us this time around, don’t worry. You’ll have another chance. Watch this space for more.Note: There were some slight technical difficulties with the recording. As a consequence, the first minute or so of the conversation is missing. Many apologies.This post is free and available to the public. To receive early access to TGS episodes, an ad-free podcast feed, Q&As, and other exclusive content and benefits, click below.0:00 Why do race and gender trump socioeconomics in affirmative action considerations? 9:03 Are Glenn and John making a difference in the race debate? 11:30 The argument for charter schools 19:54 Glenn: Nobody really believes that racism is the cause of racial disparities in crime 23:05 The difficulty of having an honest conversation about race and crime 28:15 Seizing the possibilities of our freedom 38:22 John: The race debate is about the cops 40:02 The Jon Laster Challenge 45:00 Sherrod talks to the crowd 47:27 Why do cops become cops? 54:41 Jon: Money is the biggest problem in black communities 1:03:16 Can poverty account for violence in black communities? 1:08:49 Q&A: Do we need more black police? 1:10:45 Q&A: Have Glenn and John gotten credit for highlighting The Trayvon Hoax? 1:16:59 Q&A: John clarifies his position on the Georgia voting law Links and Readings Ian Rowe’s book, Agency: The Four Point Plan (F.R.E.E.) for ALL Children to Overcome the Victimhood Narrative and Discover Their Pathway to PowerJon’s app, BlappSherrod’s podcast, Race Wars This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit glennloury.substack.com/subscribe