The Copywriter Club Podcast

The publishing platform Medium’s been around for years. But the company has made a few changes recently that might make you reconsider whether or not you should be writing on Medium. Our guest for the 419th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Thomas Smith. I asked Thomas to share some of the reasons Medium has become a place for readers to find great content as well as a place for writers to not just share their thoughts, but also to potentially earn a respectable income stream by posting thoughts there instead of social media or your own blog. Why Thomas? Well, he’s earned more than $19,000 for a single post on the platform, and well over six figures over the past couple of years. So he knows a thing of two. And he shared it all on this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Thomas’s Thrive on Medium Course How to Find Clients 36-page Mini-book The FREE Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It’s been said so often that it’s almost become a meme… there’s this idea that successful millionaires… or maybe its billionaires, I can’t quite remember, but successful millionaires have on average seven different streams of income. They may have a salary or income from a business they own, they earn dividends on their investments, maybe they have income from property they own, and so on. And people share this idea with the intention that those of us who hear it will also think about ways to add different potential income streams to our businesses. But as a content writer or a copywriter, you may not have access to investment that pay dividends yet. Or property you can rent out. Or many of the other more traditional ways these very wealthy people earn money. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t options for us. In fact, some of these options may be easier for you and me, than for the Jeff Bezos and Elon Musks of the world to capitalize on. Hi I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with successful Medium writer, Thomas Smith. Thomas has been writing on and making good money with Medium. He recently released a course that shows how he does it. And I wanted to chat with him about the possibilities for content writers and copywriters to use Medium as a potential revenue source—especially for the kinds of writing we might want to do for ourselves instead of our clients. If you write for you… you may want to listen to this episode twice so you pick up on all the ideas Thomas shares about growing an audience and income stream using Medium. Before we get to that though… you hear me tell you about several resources that we’ve put together to help you build and grow a writing business. I’m going to quickly list a few of them here so you can get the help you need… we have a free facebook group called The Copywriter Club. You can find us on Facebook and request that we add you to the group where you’ll find seven years of threads about all kinds of copywriting and business questions. Obviously you know about this podcast. You’re listening to it right now and there are more than 400 interviews with successful copywriters and other experts in our backlist. Once you’ve listened to this episode, scroll through to find interviews with people like Seth Godin, Jay Abraham, Jereshia Hawk, Joanna Wiebe, Todd Brown, Kennedy and so many others. Honestly, it’s the best free library of copy, content and business ideas that you’ll find anywhere. And it’s at your fingertips. And right now you can get our free, 36 page mini-book called How to Find Clients when you go to thecopwriterclub.com/findaclient . I guarantee you’ll find at least one and probably 5-10 ideas you can use to find a client for your business. We’re here to help you build a business, so be sure to take advantage of all the free resources we’ve provided for you. And now, let’s go to our interview with Thomas Smith. Thomas, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I’d love to start with your story. How did you become a content consultant, a writer, creator, I mean, of your course, Thrive on Medium, which I should just mention right up front, it’s a course not just about writing for Medium, but actually making a living from it. So how did you get there? Thomas Smith: Yeah, so my background is actually in AI, going way back to before it was a thing. I have a degree in cognitive science with a focus on AI from Johns Hopkins University. I was studying that kind of technology when it was literally on a whiteboard. You were drawing neural networks with a dry erase marker. So it’s come a long way in the time since then, but that was my original background. And I’m also a professional photographer. So I combined those two interests. I launched a company that uses AI to help archives, understand what’s in their archives, find photos in their big collections, get those out there fo

Want to write a book? There are plenty of experts who will tell you how. But Allison Fallon has an approach that’s different from all the others—at least, that’s how it felt to be. Allison is the guest for the 418th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and when you hear what she shares about the process of writing, I think you’ll agree, she does this a little differently—and it might just be the approach that works for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Power of Writing it Down by Allison Fallon Write Your Story by Allison Fallon Indestructible by Allison Fallon Packing Light by Allison Fallon Allison’s Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: As a copywriter or a content writer or someone who is thinking about exploring these career paths, you’ve probably toyed with the idea of writing a book. Maybe you’ve got a great story that absolutely has to be told. Or perhaps you’ve heard that a book is the best business card and can open doors with clients who then hire you to write for them. Or maybe you’ve got a screenplay you work on for a few minutes after your client work is done. More likely… you’ve thought about one or more of those things, but haven’t yet put pen to paper, or fingers to keyboard. I’m always thinking of ideas for books, some of which I have started, others I’ve put away for later. And to help me as I process these ideas, I’ve read several books about writing books… how to do it, what to include, all that stuff. Recently I came across another book about writing books that was very different in its approach. It changed the way I think about writing… books and other things too. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and my guest for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is author and book writing coach Allison Fallon. You’ll hear me say it in the interview, but Allison’s book, The Power of Writing It Down, felt more like therapy than another book about putting together your book chapters in a particluar order or writing scenes or character development. After reading it, I wanted to talk with Allison about her approach and what it means, particularly for writers who might be writing to a non-fiction audience. I think you’re going to like this interview. Before we jump in with Allion… Last week I mentioned our special free report called How to Find Clients. And I want to share that again because it features more than 20 different things you can do, starting right now, to find your ideal clients. It also shares the 4 mistakes you absolutely can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you do, you are dead in the water… and it also shows you five things you need to do before you reach out to the people you want to work with IF you want them to say yes. This isn’t some dainty one page PDF you’ll forget about in a day or two… it’s 36 pages jam packed with ideas that either we’ve used in our own businesses or we’ve seen other successful copywriters use to grow theirs. You can get your free report by going to thecopywiterclub.com/findaclient that’s all one word. Thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient. Get your free report now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Allison… Allie, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I would love just to start with your story, and I know you’ve got a really great story, but how did you become an author, speaker, founder of Find Your Voice? Allison Fallon: Yeah, I have always wanted to be an author for as long as I can remember. I often tell a story about being in fourth grade, and that was the first time that I really realized that I had a teacher who pointed out a skill I had for storytelling. And I just remember feeling like, oh, I can like something and be good at something and be acknowledged for it. And so that kind of started the spark for wanting to tell stories and in a longer format, like writing a book. I just can, through my high school and college career was always very focused on that I would be a published author someday. And then, you know, when I was in high school and college, I also had a lot of really well-meaning adults in my life who would say, that’s a great thing that you want to be an author, but you also need a backup plan because writers don’t make any money. And so I, at their advice, got a master’s degree in teaching and started teaching in the public school system in Portland, Oregon, where I’m from, and taught for about three years. My plan was to teach and kind of do the writing thing on the side. I thought like, well, I have summers off, right? Like two months off every summer, which is a misnomer. I mean, for any teachers out there, like you’re saints and you really don’t get – you don’t get that much time off in the summer. You’re curriculum planning. You’re, you know, especially as a new teacher, you’re like setting u

In the 417th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with case study copywriter Dana Owens… and of course we talked in depth about writing case studies. But as we talked, Dana shared her connection secret for getting plenty of leads for the work she wants to do. It’s a great idea that any copywriter can borrow and use to grow their own business. But to get it, you’re going to have to listen. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Dana’s Tools for Case Study Writers The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: One of the client finding ideas I like to talk about is making connections with other service providers. Instead of thinking of other copywriters as the competition, think of them as business associates who can support you in all kinds of ways including by sharing leads. I’ve mentioned more than once that copywriters have shared leads with me that have resulted in more than six figures worth of business over the years. With results like that, of course you should connect with other copywriters and content writers. But there may be an even better group to connect with when it comes to getting clients. It’s just one of the things we cover on this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and my guest for this episode is case study copywriter Dana Owens. We covered a lot of ground in this interview including how Dana kind of stumbled on this perfect partner for leads in her busines. If you write case studies it’s a connection idea you can steal and use today. But if you write any other kind of copy, you can use this idea as well, you’ll just have to figure out who your perfect connection partner is. So stick around to hear more about it. Before we jump in with Dana… It’s been a little while since I’ve mentioned our special report called How to Find Clients that features more than 20 different things you can do, starting right now, to find your ideal clients. It also shares the 4 mistakes you absolutely can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you do, you are dead in the water… and it also shows you five things you need to do before you reach out to the people you want to work with IF you want them to say yes. This isn’t some dainty one page PDF you’ll forget about in a day or two… it’s 36 pages jam packed with ideas that either we’ve used in our own businesses or we’ve seen other successful copywriters use to grow theirs. You can get your free report by going to thecopywiterclub.com/findaclient that’s all one word. Get your free report now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Dana… Hey Dana, it is so great to see you. Welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. You know how this goes because you’ve been part of The Copywriter Club world for a long time, but let’s start with your story. How did you become a copywriter? Dana Owens: Well, first of all, I’m so excited to be here. I actually learned that copywriting was a real thing from the Copywriter Club podcast. Seven years ago, I remember taking a road trip with my husband. And that was like back in the day where I had to connect his iPad to the car through a USB cord. And I had like 10 episodes of The Copywriter Club Podcast downloaded. And throughout the road trip, we listened to the episodes. And that’s when I realized copywriting could be like a real career and a real business. And that’s when he also learned it. So the fact that I’m talking to you today is just like, I don’t know, a funny, funny, full circle moment. Rob Marsh: So that’s amazing. Dana Owens: Yeah. But I started, um, I got involved in copywriting. Like I wish I would have started so much earlier than I did, but I graduated with a journalism degree and became a journalist for one year. Um, I went to work for a local, I’m from Michigan. So it was like a local small town paper and was the police reporter into the police beat. I was so naive. I mean, I had my trusty journalism degree, but had no idea what I was doing. And it was kind of a bust that first year there. I have a lot of funny stories, but I realized I did not like journalism because basically, especially as a police reporter, all I was doing was reporting on bad news. And so I’m an optimist. I wanted to report on only good news. And I was like, Dana, you are so naive. Like, how are you ever going to get a job just reporting on good news? But what I learned through that job is that I loved interviewing people. So I took that. And then I actually went, I moved to Chicago and I started to work as a creative writer for an advertising company, just a little teeny advertising company. And, um, that’s where I kind of started to figure out that copywriting was actually a thing. Although it took me another, I mean, so several years to actually start to, um, start doing copywriting formally. and star

Starting a business is hard. And having enough runway to get off the ground is a big part of whether you succeed or fail. Content creator and author of the Hey, Freelancer newsletter, Blair Sharp, is our guest for the 416th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Blair shares how she made sure she had enough runway to figure things out when she launched her business. There’s a lot in this episode, including Blair’s story of giving up alcohol. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Blair’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: This podcast episode is all about what I like call runway. And maybe the best way to explain what I mean by that is a comparrison of your business and an airplane. It takes energy to get an airplane of the ground. The pilot needs to spin up the engines, the aircraft has to accelerate, the wing flaps need to be adjusted to get “lift” so the aircraft rises. And because all of this takes a bit of time… you need a runway to move down while it all comes together. Your business is a lot like that. Most businesses don’t take off like rocketships. They need runway while you figure a few things out and get the momentum to take off. It takes time… so having a long runway can really benefit your business. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with content creator, part-time psychometrist and author of the Hey Freelancer newsletter, Blair Sharp. The way Blair has built her business is the perfect example of using a runway and time to figure things out, instead of just leaping into the unknown and hoping for the best. It’s a model that a lot of freelancers could benefit from. So stick around as she lays out how she’s made it work for her. Before we jump in with Blair… Tomorrow, October 9 is the day of our next members-only training on how to create a lead magnet that not only helps you grow your list, but attracts your ideal clients and buyers, not just people looking for a free download. Our guest Kennedy from Email Marketing Heroes will be sharing a totally new way to create lead magnets that create buyers. That’s how he describes it. If you want to build your own list or you want to be hired by clients who need help with emails and lead magnets for their own lists, you need to see this masterclass. And the best way to do that is to join The Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. As a member you’ll have access to dozens of expert trainings all focused on helping you attract more clients and get stuff done. I promise, you can use these trainings to build your skills and expertise so you can raise your rates and earn the living you deserve from your copywriting or content writing business. So jump in at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu today. And now, let’s go to our interview with Blair… Hey Blair, welcome to the podcast. We want to start out by asking how you became a content writer, actually also a psychometrist, I think is… Yes, you said it correctly. Blair Sharp: Most people don’t know what that is or know how to pronounce it. Rob Marsh: Okay, so psychometrist and you’re the author of the Hey Freelancer newsletter. Yes. And so yeah, let’s dig into that. How did you become all of these things? Blair Sharp: Yeah, right. Well, it’s kind of a long story. And whenever I tell it, I don’t really know, like, where should I start? We’ve got 60 minutes here. So I’ve been a psychometrist, which means I test people’s thinking. So I work at the Mayo Clinic. I’ve been there. I’m in Rochester, Minnesota. I’ve been at that job for just over 10 years. So I just hit my 10-year mark. And I started writing for a local parenting blog, just on a volunteer basis, in 2019. And really enjoyed it, just as a little hobby. I was doing a lot of essays, some things in the community. And it was kind of like a nice other mom. It was like a mom blog, basically. And so I started there. And then I slowly started like, dipping my toe into other kinds of writing and writing for other other places, just kind of one off things. In 2020. Then I decided to also go into Instagram a little bit more outside of my personal Instagram. And I created an alcohol free Instagram account, which is there’s a whole space for every kind of Yeah, content, right? Like online, there’s there’s a space for everybody. So there’s a whole like sober Instagram, a sober section of Instagram, I guess you could say. And so I quit drinking in 2018. That’s kind of like the background of that. But I started wanting to tell my story about that and just have it resonate with other people, because that’s kind of a hard thing to do. So I started doing that. And then that’s what led me into more mental health writing. And I connected with different brands and companies and did some essay

Most writers focus on the writing part of copywriting, which only makes sense as we’re writers. But maybe we should be doing more copythinking before we start to write. Our guest for the 415th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is A-List Copywriter David Deutsch. And when it comes to thinking about copy, David has few peers. He talked about strategy, writing emotional copy, coming up with big ideas, and much more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: David’s website The How to Write Emotional Copy Workshop The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When we started The Copywriter Club Podcast, one of the things we were adamant about was that we would interview copywriters at all levels of experience and at all the various stages of their business journey. So we’ve spoken with copywriters who are just getting started along with those with years of experience. We’ve interviewed copywriters who call themselves content writers, strategists, consultants and various other titles. We’ve heard from marketers and authors and experts in all kinds of fields. In fact we used to start the podcast with the promise that you would listen and walk away with plenty of ideas you could “steal” for your own business. With that background, it’s always a thrill to get the opportunity to interview an expert copywriter who has earned his place on the A-List. One of the go-to copywriters when it comes to being coached by one of the very best in the direct response world. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with A-list copywriter David Deutsch. David has generated more than a billion dollars in sales over the course of his career. Not bad. And probably someone we can learn from. You’ll hear this in the interview, but one of the things David likes to talk about is the difference between writing and persuasion and copywriting. The two ought to be the same, but often they’re not. I know I say this every episode, but I think you’re going to like this interview. So stick around. Before we jump in with David… It’s October. Which means the year is 3/4 done… we’ve all got one more quarter to reach the goals we set for our businesses at the beginning of the year. So let me ask you, how is it going? Are you ahead or behind your goals? What can you accomplish in the next 12 weeks that will move your business forward and set you up for a successful 2025… hard to believe the decade is half over… any way in my opinion the best place for copywriters to stretch and reach their goals is The Copywriter Underground, the paid membership with more than 100 hours of training, including an entire course on selling, a mini-course on proposals, more than 27 different templates, including a legal agreement, and so many other resources designed to help you grow. And each month, we invite a different guest expert to teach a new skill… this month’s members-only persentation is by Email Marketing Hero Kennedy on creating lead magnets that attract buyers, not freebie seekers to your list. It’s the kind of skill that will help you build your own list and make you so much more valuable to your clients. It’s happening next week in The Copywriter Underground which you can join at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, let’s go to our interview with David… David, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. I would love to start with your story. How did you become a direct response copywriter, a copy coach, and I think what some people would even say, you know, original member of the A-list of copywriters that are out there? Tell us how you got there. David Deutsch: Oh, well, thanks. It’s great to be here, first of all. And, you know, I started on I don’t know how far back to go, but I started my advertising career at Ogilvy and Mather in New York, which was David Ogilvy’s agency back when he still occasionally roamed the halls. And I you know, worked in the ad world for a while after that. Um, and it was, it really taught me, first of all, of all the advertising people, David Ogilvie was the most accountable, the most direct response, enthusiastic. So I always had that training in, it’s not just creativity, but it’s selling right. And it’s not creative unless it sells. And, um, When I first encountered Jay Abraham, I was like, wow, there’s this whole world out there of direct response. There’s this whole world out there of more accountable advertising. I want to be a part of that. So I kind of left the ad world and started working for the boardrooms, the Agoras, Healthy Direction, some of the big publishers, as well as all sorts of entrepreneurs and startups and fun stuff like that. But it was always more or less direct response oriented. It was always about getting a response, getting an order, getting a name. And after doing that for a few decades

Standing out as a content writer when you offer the same services as every other content writer is hard. We’re talking blog posts, case studies, white papers… But if you’re willing to go beyond the expected and find deeper problems your clients have, you can carve out a very different kind of business. For the 414th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with content strategist Sarah Hopkinson about how she found a problem that she can solve and be the only content mixologist doing what she does. If you’re a content writer who wants to solve bigger problems than writing blog posts for SEO, you’re going to like this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Pocket Guide Sarah Created for us Ry Schwartz Podcast Episode Everybody Writes by Anne Handley Sarah’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: A lot of content writers focus on serving clients who have obvious content needs. They know they need blog posts for SEO or case studies for a sales funnel. They’re solving problems that their clients know they have. And while there are plenty of opportunituies for copywriters in this space, there is a ton of competition too. Because a lot of writers, especially writers who are just starting out, will gravitate to these obvious problems and the clients who know they need these assets. But there are deeper content needs that are a bit less obvious. And they can be a rich opportunity for the smart copywriters who can unlock them. Let me give you an example… there are hundreds of podcaster and video channel owners with months or even years of episodes full of great ideas and insights. But most podcast listeners don’t have the time to listen to every episode in order to get those insights. Take this podcast for example, if you were to listen to every episode, it would take you twelve weeks if you listened 8 hours a day to hear everything we’ve shared. But what if an enterprising content writer could unlock those insights so listeners didn’t have to put in the time, but could get the ideas in a lead magnet or PDF resource for a client. Now that’s a non-obvious content opportunity that a lot of clients have but almost no copywriters offer. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with content strategist and podcast content mixologist Sarah Hopkinson. Sarah has created a business that does exactly that—uncovers the best lost and hidden content that podcasters have in their archives, then helps her clients find new uses for those assets. Sarah has staked out a unique position in a niche with a ton of potential clients that almost no one else is serving. And I asked her how and why she did it. Stay tuned to here what she had to say… Before we jump in with Sarah… On this episode we’ll talk about the kind of lead magnets and other content that Sarah creates for her clients. We actually asked Sarah to go through some of our older episodes to find the very best ideas that our guests shared about finding clients. If you’d like to see what she discovered, simply visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket. If you go to that url, you’ll be able to download a report that shares the ideas that Sarah uncovered on those older podcasts—ideas that still work today. Any way, check it out at thecopywriterclub.com/pocket And now, let’s go to our interview with Sarah… Sarah, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. Tell us, how did you become a copywriter and a podcast content strategist? Sarah Hopkinson: Hey Rob, it is great to be here and I’m so excited to talk to you. I got into copywriting through like many copywriters, a slightly long journey. I did a degree in French and linguistics, which really set me up for life in France, and I decided that that was my goal to move from Britain to France, so I did that. When I arrived in Nice in the south of France, I bounced around a little bit, did a few small jobs before I landed a job with a big travel company producing content for them. in English and French. So that was kind of content writing and also research, content curation. But then in 2020, the world changed quite substantially with COVID and I was made redundant. And as part of my redundancy process, it took quite a long time. So I had time to think about I wonder what I want to do next after this job. And I’d heard of copywriting before, and I started telling people that I wanted to be a copywriter until somebody said to me, Oh, great. So what is that? And I thought, what an unfair question to ask. Um, so I had to start doing research on copywriting, uh, and I found out that it still interested me. It was what I wanted to do. So that led to me creating my own business in 2021, Copyhop. Uh, and I was recommended the Copywriter Club podcast by a friend and I did the accelerator, found my niche and here we are toda

Standing out and getting noticed is hard in a world with more than a million people calling themselves copywriters and content writers. Posting on social media, writing for LinkedIn, or even creating content for Google or Pinterest—all of those things work. But who wouldn’t love to be featured in the Wall Street Journal or Business Insider? You get positive press and a high-value link to your site for SEO. Sign us up. But hold on… it’s not as easy as you might think. My guest for the 413th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Gloria Chou, a self-made PR specialist. And in this interview she spells out how you can attract those high value press placements to help grow your business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Gloria’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: As you think about your copywriting or content writing business and all the things you need to do to get yourself out there and in front of your ideal clients… there are a lot of options. There’s social media with its various options from TikTok and Instagram to LinkedIn and Twitter and more. You can create a YouTube channel or a podcast. You can show up at events or in groups in places like Facebook. You can start your own groups using tools like Telegram, Skool, Circle, and of course Facebook. You can ask your existing clients to introduce you to their network and build a business on referrals. I even know one writer who had his car wrapped with a vinyl cover that advertised his work and contact information. And honestly, those are just the most popular options—except maybe that car wrap. That might be a little more rare. One of the most effective ways to get yourself out there is to be featured in a major publication or possibly on TV using PR. That kind of exposure comes with instant credibility and potentially, a massive audience of potential clients. What would an article in The Wall Street Journal or Business Insider do for your clients attraction efforts? I’m guessing it wouldn’t hurt. And if you’re like a couple of copywriters I know, it could instantly double or triple your business almost overnight. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed former television producer and diplomat and current PR guru expert and unofficial hype woman for dozens of small businesses, Gloria Chou. Gloria’s approach to getting PR is a bit different from other experts who talk about it and definitely worth learning about. What she shares in this interview could be just the thing you need to land the publicity you need to take the next step in your business. So stay tuned to hear what she had to share. Before we jump in with Gloria… You only have a couple of days until the next guest expert workshop happening in The Copywriter Underground. I’ve shared a lot of details about what The Underground includes on past episodes, so let me just say this. Unlike a lot of other memberships and groups, the underground is designed to make things easy. There aren’t dozens of modules to watch or complicated hoops to jump through. Just the focused insights and ideas you need to grow your business from wherever you are today to that goal you want to reach. We make building a copywriting business do-able. So I mentioned the training coming this week. It’s with Pinterest Marketing expert Heather Farris. She’s going to show you how to use Pinterest to drive leads to your business. And how just one or two posts, can send new clients your way for years after you post on that platform. It’s a workshop that could add a bunch of new clients and thousands of dollars in new revenue to your existing business. And you can do it in about 30 minutes a week. To get access to Heather’s Pinterest secrets, you’ve got to be a member of The Copywriter Underground, which you can do at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, let’s go to our interview with Gloria… Gloria, welcome to the Copyrighted Club podcast. Tell us, please, how did you become a PR guru and I guess the unofficial hype woman for dozens of small businesses? Gloria Chou: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. Yeah, so I always say like my alter ego, if I wasn’t doing this, I’m like that person like at a concert, let’s say a hip hop concert, that’s like hyping the crowd up before the main guy comes on. I just love to see people win. And, you know, I was always a person that was like connecting my friends to different opportunities. But funny thing is, is that I’ve actually never worked a day in my life in PR, never worked in an agency, whether it’s marketing or PR, I actually used to be a US diplomat. So I had a very non-traditional path to becoming what I am today. And I just started picking up the phone and cold calling after I got my first PR gig. Because again, I never worked in PR, so I didn&#8217

How you present your products and services to your customers matters. And while most copywriters don’t overtly say they do positioning work, the reality is, any messaging project pretty much requires it. The question is, how do you do it right? For the 412th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we talked with copywriter and product positioning expert, Kate Guerrero about the formula for positioning the products you write about in a way that makes it easy for customers to understand not only what it is, but why they need it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Positioning by Ries and Trout Fletch’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Positioning is a marketing term coined by Al Ries and Jack Trout way back in 1969. It refers to the practice of connecting your product or service (or your client’s products or services) to a single idea in your customer’s mind. And when it’s done well, your prospects and customers associate your brand with that idea. Some examples include Volvo and safety, Apple and creativity, and Disney and magic. Although few clients ask for copywriters to position their products, this is actually a big part of what we do, whether we do it consciously or not. So I thought it might be worthwhile to talk in depth about how copywriters can do it and the impact it has for their clients. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed copywriter and brand positioning expert Kate Guerrero. Kate is the in-house writer for Fletch, an agency that focuses almost entirely on helping their clients position themselves on their home pages. As promised, she laid out the process that she and Fletch use to help their clients identify the ideas they can stand for in the marketplace. We also talked about the differences between copywriting and messaging—what she shared pairs nicely with our interview with Justin Blackman on last week’s episode. And finally we also talked a bit about fiction writing since Kate has a manuscript she’s been shopping to major publishers. That’s a lot to cover, but we did it, and I think you’ll like the result, so stay tuned. Before we jump in with Kate… The next expert training happening in The Copywriter Underground is coming up soon. You probably know The Underground is our community for copywriters who are actively investing in building their business and writing skills. It includes personalized coaching for you where I give you feedback and ideas to help solve the stickiest challenges you face in your business today. There’s a massive library of business-focused training to help you grow a resilient, profitable copywriting businesss. And each month we bring you a new guest expert training that will help you make even more progress in your business. This month our guest expert is Heather Farris who will be showing you how to use Pinterest to drive leads to your business for years after you post on that platform. Unlike Twitter where tweets disappear after a few minutes, or LinkedIn and Instagram where posts are lucky to last a day, the content you post on Pinterest is close to permanent. That’s because Pinterest is more like a search engine than social media. Any way, Heather will be sharing how to use Pinterest to drive copywriting leads to your business… it’s the kind of idea that could add new clients and thousands of dollars in new revenue for you. But to get access to these closely held strategies, you’ve got to be a member of The Copywriter Underground, which you can learn more about at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Jump in now so you don’t miss this or any of the other upcoming expert skill trainings. And now, let’s go to our interview with Kate… Kate, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. You’ve heard a few episodes of the podcast, and as we like to start, I’m really curious how you became a copywriter and now specializing in product marketing. Kate Guerrero: Yeah, absolutely. I’m so excited to be here. Love all of your guests. And this is a great opportunity for me. So my journey to copywriting was very long and winding, I think, as it is for a lot of people. I, as a kid, always wanted to be a writer. And then as I got older, was really only sort of presented with journalism, which was, I didn’t want to do that. I taught English at the high school level for a few years. I did a number of different things like educational related sales. I worked for a tutoring company… lots of different things. And then ended up being home with my kids for a time and looking for things, you know, as often we do in that stage where I could have something flexible, something just, you know, income on the side. And I started getting introduced to the world of online services. So I dabbled in social media content, in virtual assisting and all the

Brand voice is one of the “popular” ways to niche or differentiate yourself in the crowded world of copywriting. But what is it really? And how do you do it? We wanted to go deeper than the typical discussion on brand voice, so we asked the expert on the topic, Justin Blackman to join us for the 411th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And we think you’re going to like what he shared about it as well as writing brand manifestos and achieving mastery. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Join the Manifesto Maker program here Brand Voice Academy The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: One of the niches that I commonly hear a lot of copywriters talk about focusing on is brand voice. Often they don’t use those words. Sometimes they say things like they help clients tell their story or that they help you sound like you. Or maybe it’s something like they help bring out your personality or capture the words that resonate with your best customers. All of those are ways of saying pretty much the same thing, brand voice. But while many writers talk about doing this brand voice thing, not many talk about how you do it. In talking about brand voice, I wanted to go a little bit deeper than the typical things that you might read in a blog post about brand voice or things that you might’ve even heard on podcasts like this one before. So that’s what this episode is all about. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club, and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed copywriter and brand voice expert, Justin Blackman. We’ve actually had Justin on the podcast before, several times in fact, and we’ve even talked about brand voice with him before, but I wanted to go a little bit deeper this time to go beyond the typical frameworks and see what it really takes to identify your own brand voice or the brand voice of your clients. And I think you’re gonna like our discussion, so stay tuned. But before we jump in with Justin, you’ve heard me talk about The Copywriter Underground over and over and over. And I’m just going to remind you that the Underground is our community for copywriters who are actively investing in their businesses and in their writing skills. It includes monthly group coaching where we talk about the sticky challenges and problems that copywriters face in their business. It includes this massive library of training. There’s more than 30 different templates. It’s all focused on helping you grow your skills and get better at things like finding clients, conducting prospecting calls, writing hooks and leads, creating frameworks and processes for getting things done, and so much more. And each month we bring you a different business-focused training to help you grow your skills and grow your business. The next scheduled training is in a couple of weeks. If you’re listening to this, when the podcast releases, it’s all about marketing on social media in a way that doesn’t disappear in just a few seconds, a few minutes, or even a day or two. Like what happens to your posts on Twitter. Instagram, even LinkedIn. That’s going to be with Heather Farris, who was a guest on our podcast a couple of weeks ago. We’ve asked Heather to customize what she’s going to share so that it’s really applicable to copywriters and content writers. And I think you’re going to like what she will be teaching us this, uh, this in a couple of weeks in September. And then in October, we’re going to have last week’s guest, Kennedy, come back and talk about creating the perfect lead magnet. If you listened to his episode last week, you’re definitely going to want to join us for this training. So you’re not just adding people to your list, but you’re actually attracting people who buy and need the solutions that you have for the challenges that they face. That’s just the next two guest trainings. We’ll keep adding more and more to The Copywriter Underground, but the thing is they’re for members only. So to get these behind the scenes secrets, you’ve got to join. And you know, you can do that at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Do it today. So you can be there for these upcoming business changing trainings. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Justin. Justin Blackman, welcome back to the podcast. Before we hit record, I think I mentioned this is like your fifth or sixth appearance. You have been on the podcast more than anyone besides Kira and myself. Justin Blackman: That’s pretty cool, man. It’s always fun being here. It’s one of my favorite podcasts to listen to. And I can’t say I’ve listened to every episode, but it’s close. Rob Marsh: Yeah, well, I apprecia

If you’re struggling to get the people on your email list to buy your products and services (or you want to help clients sell more to their lists), this episode is for you. We asked Kennedy from Email Marketing Heroes to be our guest for the 410th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kennedy shared his SCORE method that helped him increase his own sales by 1700%. Want to know how he did it? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript and get the secrets.   Stuff to check out: Email Marketing Heroes The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: After recording more than 400 episodes where we’ve told the stories of hundreds of copywriters and shared many of their processes and secrets for finding clients and getting things done, I think my favorite episodes are those that lay out a playbook for doing something specific. Those episodes are like audio masterclasses where you get almost step by step instructions on how to do something differet. We’ve had a couple of episodes like this lately… and today’s episode is another one like that. We’re getting very specific with email strategy and a formula that could increase your sales—or the sales of your clients—by close to 20x. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed mind reader, mentalist and founder of email heros Kennedy. Kennedy’s been a friend for a few years now. He spoke at our Copywriter Club event in London last year and shared a bit of what we talked about on this interview, so I was thrilled when he agreed to join me here to talk about how to string together email sequences in a way that massively increases revenue. If you apply what Kennedy shares in this episode, you could double or triple what you charge clients for emails and strategy simply because you’ll know how to drastically increase the results you get from your work. Before we jump in with Kennedy… I want to tell you about the next couple of guest expert trainings happening in The Copywriter Underground. In case you don’t know, The Underground is our community for copywriters who are actively investing in building their business and writing skills. It includes monthly group coaching where we help solve the stickiest challenges and problems copywriters are facing in their busienesses today. It includes a massive library of training all focused on helping you grow your skills and get better at things like finding clients, conducting prospecting calls, writing hooks and leads, creating frameworks and processes for getting things done and so much more. And each month we bring you a new business focused training to help you add to your skills and grow your business. The nexd training scheduled for September is all about Pinterest Marketing. And our guest expert for that is last week’s podcast guest, Heather Farris. I asked Heather to customize what she shares so it’s directly applicable to copywriters and content writers. And she agreed. She’s going to show you how to use Pinterest to create long-lasting funnels for your services. And in October, today’s guest, Kennedy is going to return to share something we touched on in today’s interview: creating the perfect lead magnet… so you’re not just adding people to your list, but you’re attracting buyers who want the solutions you have to their challenges. But here’s the thing with these unique guest trainings… they’re for members only. The only way you get these behind the scenes secrets is to join, which you can do at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Do it today, so you can join us for these upcoming, business changing trainings. And now, let’s go to our interview with Kennedy. I want to start the way we usually do. And that’s just with your story. And you’ve got a little bit of a different story. You are not a typical copywriter. In fact, I don’t even think you call yourself a copywriter. Kennedy: I don’t even think of myself as a copywriter at all. I feel like I haven’t really earned that prestigious title. Rob Marsh: You do a ton of copywriting. So, you know, it’s, it’s obviously it’s in your wheelhouse, but how did you, how did you become, you know, the head of, well, I guess the head hero at email marketing heroes. The superhero. Kennedy: Yeah. I mean, so basically my, as you said, my background is kind of a bit unusual. I started off never wanting to get a job. And basically all I’ve done is I’ve spent, I’m, I’m 40 years old now. I know I don’t do it. Right. But you look so young. Rob Marsh: Yes. You don’t look a day over 37, 38. Yeah. Kennedy: Yeah. Um, but I always, all I’ve done up to this point is avoided getting a job at all costs. And so that began with I got interested in unexplained stuff when I was a kid. I subscribed to a print magazine called, it was called The X Factor.

  Looking for a place to market your writing business where you may be able to be the only copywriter talking to your prospects? Pinterest may be the answer. Heather Farris, the go-to Pinterest Marketing Expert for a lot of service providers, course creators and others is our guest for the 409th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. She shared how to get started, how to find the right key words, and how to get clients off Pinterest and onto your mailing list (or buying your products). This is a good one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Heather’s Website Heather’s Pinterest Board The Copywriter Club Pinterest Board The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It doesn’t matter how good you are as a copywriter, if your ideal clients can’t find you, you won’t have a lot of work that you really enjoy. In fact, if clients can’t find you, you may not have any work at all. Copywriters have been solving this get-found-by-clients problem in a lot of ways. They’re on Instagram posting photos and reels. They’re on Linkedin sharing client success stories and thought leadership. They guest on podcasts like this one, sharing their frameworks and processes to attract the clients they want to work with. But the problem with all of those platforms is that there are literally thousands of other copywriters doing the same thing—trying to get attention and connect with the clients they want to work with. What if you could attract clients from a search engine that’s been around for years, but it ignored by almost everyone? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m chatting with Pinterest Marketing Consultant Heather Farris. Her title gives away the answer to the intro, but Heather has been helping service providers connect with their ideal clients on Pinterest for years. As you almost certainly know, Pinterest is an image based search engine with almost 500 million active monthly users. And some pretty easy-to-use tools for finding keywords so you can connect with your ideal clients. Now I’ve always thought of Pinterest as a place to find cool images, but clients? Heather set me straight and not only will you like this interview, but I’m guessing more than a few listeners will use what Heather shares to find their own clients on Pinterest. Before we jump in with Heather… If you’re listening to this episode when it goes live, The Copywriter Accelerator is open now for the only time this year. The Accelerator is our 8-part, 16 week program that helps you build a successful freelance business whether you’re a copywriter, a content writer, or you use your writing as a strategist, a social media specialist or something else. You’ll learn how to position your business so clients want to work with you. You’ll learn what it takes to create successful products and services that solve real client problems that client’s can’t wait to buy. You’ll learn the various ways to price what you do so you get paid for the value you create, not the time that you work. You’ll set up the right processes and learn how to manage clients. You’ll get more than 29 different ideas for ways to get yourself in front of the clients you want to work with, and you’ll take the first steps toward creating a brand that resonates with you and the people you want to work with. Many of the copywriters who have gone through The Accelerator have gone on to build six figure businesses—many have even been on this podcast… like Justin Blackman, Chanti Zak, Zafira Rajan, Kirsty Fanton… the list goes on. If you want to use the strategies and ideas that helped them in your own business, go to TheCopywriterAccelerator.com now. It’s open for three more days, then closed until next year. And who knows… maybe forever. And now, let’s go to our interview with Heather Farris. Heather, welcome. I’m excited to be chatting with you today. And as we usually do, let’s start off with how you got to where you are. How did you become a Pinterest ad strategist, consultant, and I guess Pinterest marketing expert? Heather Farris: I just happened to fall into it, to be honest. I have a history and a college degree that I’m still paying for, painfully so. in accounting and management and finance. So I was living in a very, very small town of 13,000 people. When I graduated college, my husband was in the air force and I didn’t want to have to drive an hour one way—I had a family. So that was like commute time. I didn’t want to have to spend time away from them to go into Kansas city to work in an accounting firm. I found a tiny little bookkeeping firm that was paying $12 an hour and I was making No money. And I was just looking for any way to make more money than what I was making, or at least make what I was making and have more time with my fam

9 out of 10 copywriters never hit the six figure mark. That is, they are stuck earning less than $100,000 a year. Why? Because, while they’re good writers, they don’t have the business skills to run and grow a successful business. For the 408th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we wanted to share some of the amazing things copywriters are doing in their businesses with the help of The Copywriter Accelerator. This proven, 8-part program has helped hundreds of copywriters learn the business skills they need to build the business they want. We’ve chosen three copywriters to share their biggest takeaways. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Accelerator   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: We’ve been teasing it on the podcast and in our emails for the last month or so—so it’s probably time to make it official, The Copywriter Accelerator is open for new members right now. If you are new here or you don’t know what The Accelerator is, stick around for a minute so you at least have the information you need to decide if this is the right program for you. If you already know about the program and want to jump in this year, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com now to get all the details. For those who don’t know, The Copywriter Accelerator is not a course or a membership. It’s our proven, 8 part, cohort based program that ensures you have all the business skills you need to succeed as the owner of a copywriting business. You’re almost certainly already a good writer… but that’s not enough to succeed. If clients can’t find you, if you don’t know how to talk about what you do so you attract them to you, if you don’t have the systems in place to make sure you get the work done for them, it’s pretty easy to fail. And that might be the reason that 9 out of 10 copywriters and content writers never grow their business to the six-figure mark. Let me repeat that, 90% of copywriters never earn $100,000 from their business because they don’t have the business know-how it requires. They’re great writers, but not yet great business owners and that’s why we created the Accelerator program. It’s designed to help you build the skills to ensure your success. More than 350 copywriters have gone through the program and used the modules to update and improve their businesses. And if you’re struggling to grow your business, it might be time to visit thecopywriteraccelerator.com to learn more about this program. Earlier today I was scanning through a few of the past episodes with copywriters like Justin Blackman, Chanti Zak, Zafira Rajan, Kirsty Fanton and a bunch of others looking for some of the things they said about the accelerator program. I wanted to share their successes… I was going to clip a bunch of these interviews together so you could get a sense of what is included in The Accelerator, but then I remembered an interview we did a while ago with several former members of The Accelerator sharing what they got from the program. So without further ado… let’s roll the tape… Kira Hug: We’ll let these copywriters introduce themselves in a moment, but first, let me just say, if you’re tempted to skip this episode, because you’re not interested in this program, it could be worth giving it a quick listen because many of the takeaways they share about the changes they’ve made to their businesses apply to copywriting businesses at every single stage. And these writers are doing some pretty cool things in their businesses. You might be inspired by what they’ve done, and maybe even borrow an idea or two for your own business. Rob Marsh: At this point in the program, we would usually say something like this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator. And then we would tell you all of the reasons why you should consider joining. We’re not going to do that today. Other than to say that after listening to this episode, take a moment to visit thecopywriteraccelerator.com and see what this program is all about. And see for yourself whether or not it’s something that you should consider for your business this year. Kira Hug: So, let’s jump in with our guests. We are so excited today to be here with some of our Accelerator members, members who are currently in the program, which we’re about to wrap up this month. And so before we dive into this conversation and ask you all a bunch of questions, can you take a minute to introduce yourself, all three of you? Just share name, where you’re located, your copywriting specialty, and then bonus points if you want to share a favorite movie or book, optional. Tori, why don’t you kick this off? Tori Autumn: Hi, my name is Tori Autumn. I live in Washington DC and I focus on launch copy and website copy for course creators and coaches. My favorite book, I’m actually getting into that book the Four Thousand Weeks right now. It’s scary to think of life like that, but it’s also great to think of my

Story telling is a super power. However, even writers often struggle to find and tell stories in a way that makes them compelling and persuasive. On the 407th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob spoke with author and story teller Matthew Dicks. Matthew has a new book called Stories Sell that walks through how to find and tell stories. In this interview, we talked in depth about this critical copywriting skill and how you can develop it for your own business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Moth Story Worthy by Matthew Dicks Stories Sell by Matthew Dicks Matthew’s Novel that is a bunch of lists Live Life Like You’re 100 Matthew’s Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Whether you write copy or content, chances are you’ve heard the advice that you need to be telling stories. Stories are powerful… they help us bond to one another, they help communicate ideas and information far more effectively than if we just share the idea or information alone. They trigger the release of a variety of good hormones and they’re just plain entertaining. But often the advice to tell stories is hard to follow because it’s not always clear what counts as a story or how exactly you should go about telling one. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, teacher, novelist, non-fiction author and famed story teller Matthew Dicks. Matthew is the author of Story Worthy, a book that is often recommended and shared in the copywriting community as a how-to manual on the art of story telling. And he has a new book out called Stories Sell that takes much of what he shares in Story Worthy and puts it in a business context. I read it a few weeks ago, and honestly believe that every copywriter should have this book on their shelf. And just in case you want a quick link, we’ll have one in the show notes for this episode. This is a great conversation that I think you’ll want to listen to at least twice. Before we jump in with Matthew… If you’re listening to this episode when it goes live, we are about a week away from opening up The Copywriter Accelerator for the only time this year. The Accelerator is our 8-part, 16 week program that helps you build a successful freelance business whether you’re a copywriter, a content writer or you use your writing as a strategist, a social media specialist or something else. You’ll learn how to position your business so clients want to work with you. You’ll learn what it taks to create successful products and services that solve real client problems that clients can’t wait to buy. You’ll learn the various ways to price what you do so you get paid for the value you create, not the time that you work. You’ll set up the right processes and learn how to manage clients. You’ll get more than 29 different ideas for ways to get yourself in front of the clients you want to work with and you’ll take the first steps toward creating a brand that resonates with you and the people you want to work with. Many of the copywriters who have gone through The Accelerator have gone on to build six figure businesses. And if that’s something you want, it might be worth checking out. To find out more, go to TheCopywriterAccelerator.com. And now, let’s go to our interview with Matthew Dicks… Matthew Dix, welcome to The Copywriter Club Podcast. As I was saying just before we started to record, I’m excited to have you here. I’m guessing that there are a lot of our listeners who know who you are and may be aware of your work. But for those who aren’t, will you just give us the story on how you became writer, novelist, storyteller? Matthew Dicks: Yeah, that’s a tricky story. But Well, I mean, I became a writer. I like to say on November 30th, 1988, when a teacher in my high school recognized that I had something to say. And at that point in my life, I was sort of a little lost. I was a senior in high school. My parents had indicated to me that when I graduated, I was. out on my own, like college was a word that was never spoken to me as a child by a teacher, guidance counsel, or parents. So, you know, I spent my senior year of high school worried about where I was going to live and what I would eat. And so, you know, I had a moment in a classroom where a teacher gave me a chance to share my voice with the class and it worked out really well. And I discovered that maybe this would be something that could save me someday. And so I started writing on November 30th, 1988. And I have not missed a day since that day for my entire life. I’ve written every single day of my life through COVID and pneumonia and the birth of children and my wedding day and my honeymoon and everything in between. I have yet to miss a day. Actually, the next day after that sort of momentous moment

We’ve talked a lot about emails on the podcast lately. And for the 406th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed ConvertKit’s Creator Growth Manager, Morgan Kitzmiller about newsletters, referral tools, and how to use email service providers like ConvertKit in ways you might not have thought of before. There’s a lot of good stuff in this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: ConvertKit The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: We’ve talked a lot about email on the podcast over the last ten or fifteen episodes. How to write them. How to make sure the emails you write end up in your reader’s inbox. How to add personality and sell with emails. In today’s episode, we’re going deeper into how to work with an email service provider to do more with your emails. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with Morgan Kitzmiller. Morgan is the Creator Growth Manager at ConvertKit. And she’s the owner of her own business, Root and Rise. Morgan works with creators to help them grow their audiences and their businesses. We talked about how to use automations and other tools to make email a bigger part of what copywriters do. And we talked in depth about what’s going on with newsletters… which tools like substack, beehiiv and convertkit are making so easy to start and run as a business. We covered a lot of ground in this interview, so make sure you stick around for all of it. Before we hear what Morgan had to share… You’ve heard me talk about The Copywriter Underground often on the podcast. Along with the monthly coaching, weekly copy critiques, the community and courses you get as a member, each month we bring in a special guest to go in-depth on a business or copywriting topic. This August 14, copywriter Francis Nayan who was a recent guest on the podcast will join us in The Underground to share the ins and outs of what we’re calling the one-email-a-day business. He’s going to break down his business model and show you how to sell digital products with a daily email. It can be a great way to diversify your income and if you want to work with fewer clients, what Francis will be sharing could be pivital to creating a business that supports you and your lifestyle. To join us for this workshop. Go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and sign up. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Morgan Kitzmiller. Okay, Morgan, welcome to The Copywriter Club. We like to start with your story. So tell us, how did you become the creator growth manager at ConvertKit? And I suppose it’s probably connected to this business that you built for yourself, Root & Rise, as well. Morgan Kitzmiller: So actually, kind of the other way around, I built Root & Rise as a result of being involved and working with ConvertKit for a long time. Starting off at the beginning, this takes us back eight years ago. I had graduated college and was looking for new opportunities. I was an art major. I did not want to go into the art world and was just learning about different jobs or things that were out there. And I stumbled upon ConvertKit. Learn that they were hiring and really growing up the team in many ways at that point in time that was like 2016 was when Nathan our CEO hired a ton of new people like I believe the team went from. maybe four people, four or five people at the beginning of that year to closer to 20-ish by the end of that year. So there was a ton of growth in the company that year. And when I learned about ConvertKit at the time, the tagline was email marketing for bloggers. And that was a world that I had definitely consumed a lot of content in, not a world that I was directly a part of myself. I did not consider myself a blogger, did consider myself a creative being an art major. And just got really intrigued with the mission of serving bloggers, serving creators, and went through the interview process to join the team as a on the customer success team. So I was doing support at the beginning. Then after not even a year of doing support, I transitioned into migrations, where I helped our new large customers migrate over and get started using ConvertKit. And then a couple years into that transitioned over into account management. And then I want to say, A year and a half ago, we rebranded Account Manager to Creator Growth Manager because we felt that fit more of what we do at ConvertKit. Really, our mission is to help creators grow, help them build an engaged audience, help them monetize, help them really find success doing what they love every day in whatever facet that looks like for each different creator. And the story with the root and rise there is that like when I first joined even back eight years ago, the team was built of creators. So regardless of where people were in the company, if the

A lot of copywriters don’t exactly love working with clients. But what’s the alternative? In the 405th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob talked with copywriter Francis Mayan who has build a product business where he sells digital products with an email a day (and grows his list by posting on social media). We talk about what that kind of business requires and how Francis made the switch from client work to selling with email. This is a good one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks Stories Sell by Matthew Dicks Francis’s Email List The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Today’s guest has been on the show before… but since his first appearance, he’s created a completely different business that supports him as he travels the world. His old business was writing copy—mostly emails—for clients. The new business sells digital products with a daily email and regular posts on LinkedIn. He still talks about emails, but the shift in focus is significant and has helped free up his time for other activities. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with copywriter and digital product business owner, Francis Nayan. As I mentioned, Francis has been on the show before, but his business has changed so dramatically in the past few years that I thought it would be nice to talk about that change… and knowing that many of you want to sell digital products of your own, this episode will give you a taste of what that requires. Be sure to stick around for this one. Before we jump in with Francis… You’ve heard me talk about The Copywriter Underground often on the podcast. Along with the monthly coaching, weekly copy critiques, the community and courses you get as a member, each month we bring in a special guest to go in-depth on a business or copywriting topic. In August, Francis Nayan who is the guest for this episode will be jumping into the Underground to share the ins and outs of his business. He’s going to break down his business model and show you how to sell digital products with a daily email. If after you listen to this episode, you think, I’d like a business like Francis has, you need to join us for this workshop. Go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu for more details. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Francis Nayan. The rest of the transcript is coming…

To get better at copywriting, you need to practice. But how do you get the right kind of practice (and perhaps a few portfolio samples in the process)? Copywriter Wendy Ann Jones joins us for the 404th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to share a new resource that helps you get the practice you need. We covered a lot more than that… you’re going to want to stick around for this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson The Copywriter’s Workout by Wendy Jones The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: There’s one thing that all writers have in common… that is we write. We write for ourselves and our clients. It’s writing every day that helps us get better at the craft. But if you’re not working with a client, you might be wondering what do I write? How can you use your writing time to create writing samples that read as if they are real and help you get good writing practice? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I talked with copywriter Wendy Ann Jones. Wendy quit a corporate job in order to start her own business, but when it came time to practice, she realized there weren’t a lot of resources out there to help. So she created that resource—a book of practice clients and projects you can use to get better at the craft of writing and perhaps even create a few portfolio samples worth sharing with potential clients. If you’re looking for ways to build your portfolio, you’ll want to listen to what Wendy has to share… Before we jump in with Wendy… We have a new gift for you as a listener to The Copywriter Club Podcast. We went through the past 400 episodes of this podcast looking for the ideas that our guests have shared over the past couple of years related to finding clients. We pulled out a bunch of our favorites and compiled them into a new pocket sized guide that will inspire you as you look for ways to attract the right clients to your business. It’s a bit like having a couple dozen of the best copywriters in your pocket advising you on how to find your next client. To get your copy, visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket and download this new guide. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Wendy Ann Jones. Kira Hug: Hi, Wendy. Let’s just start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? OK. Wendy Ann Jones: So about February 2021 I was really super disillusioned with my job. I was working in corporate and I loved it. I did love it and it was very fast moving, very motivating and then the company took a turn and it was a bit boring. It was a bit boring, a bit dull, and there wasn’t anything to learn. And I’m quite a lifelong learner. I’m always obsessed with learning things and like to be occupied and busy. And I was also going through the start of the perimenopause, which, you know, I’m sure a lot of women, women similar age to me will be like, yeah, nodding their heads. And I kind of thought, oh, I need to change, to do something different. I found a copywriting ad. It popped up on my Facebook, and it was like, oh, would you like to work the hours you want to work? And would you like to live wherever you want? And would you like to, you know, all these things? And I was like, yes, yes, that’s exactly what I want. Yes, please. Yes, yes. And I’ve said this a few times before, but it was just that hook was my introduction to copywriting, right? Because it was like they were talking. exactly to me at the time that I needed them and I went on to like a free webinar it’s like a five-day little mini training course and I loved it and then I signed on straight away obviously for a full-on copywriting course there and then and yeah just took part in that and obviously the key to that was find yourself a client and And you kind of do a big gulp at that point when they say, oh, you need to find a client pretty much straight away. And you’re like, oh, can I do that? But I was lucky. I had a couple of people I knew that were business owners who agreed to let me write some website copy for them. And that’s how I got started, really. And that was, yeah, that was back in 2021. Early 22, I went into my business full time, quit my corporate job, took a big deep breath. and jumped in and I’ve been doing that ever since. Rob Marsh: So as you started to build your business, you know, those first clients that are people that you know, sometimes those are the easy ones. And in what I’ve seen with the copywriters that we’ve coached, even in my own experience, that first initial transfer of clients dries up pretty quickly. So how did you take the next step from the business owners that you know, and move into other clients that maybe wer

What’s possible as a content creator? If you don’t want to be a CMO or VP of marketing, how high can you rise? Amanda Natividad joined us for the 403rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and shared her thoughts about how writers can carve out a role as an individual contributor and what that looks like. She also talked about research, growing an online audience and how not to add to the social media noise. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: SparkToro Amanda’s Website The Brian Kurtz episode Rob mentioned The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Building an online platform on social media where you can share your thoughts has become an important part of a lot of copywriter’s businesses. A platform like this can be a source of leads as well as a place to grow your influence and share your thoughts. Whether you do it on Twitter, Linkedin, Instagram or somewhere else, it’s more important than ever. And when you do it right, your platform can be a launch pad for all kinds of things—including a writing position where you get to not only do the work you love, but define the way you do it. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I talked with content creator and VP of Marketing at SparkToro, Amanda Natividad. Amanda landed her position by posting great content online and interacting with others on her chosen platform—Twitter. We talked about that as well as how content creators might create individual contributor roles for themselves, how to research using a tool like SparkToro, the platform Amanda would probably choose today if she were starting over and a lot more. This is a great interview with lots of insights. So stick around… Before we jump in with Amanda… We have a new gift for you as a listener to The Copywriter Club Podcast. We went through the past 400 episodes of this podcast looking for the ideas that our guests have shared over the past couple of years related to finding clients. We pulled out a bunch of our favorites and compiled them into a new pocket sized guide that will inspire you as you look for ways to attract the right clients to your business. It’s a bit like having a couple dozen of the best copywriters in your pocket advising you on how to find your next client. To get your copy, visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket and download this new guide. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Amanda Natividad.   Kira Hug: Well, let’s start with your story. I’d love to hear how you ended up as the VP of Marketing at SparkToro and how you got there. Amanda Natividad: Yeah. This could be too long of a story. Let’s see. Go for the whole hour. Rob Marsh: Let’s make sure we talk about the test kitchen, all of it. Amanda Natividad: It all started when I was born. No, I’m kidding. No, let’s see. Here, I’ll try to do my best here. You would think at this point I would be good at this, but I’m not. So here we go. I’ll say I was a marketer like in the trenches for what, at least eight years or so before I ever started publishing online, like under my own name, here are my marketing thoughts. Here are my thoughts and work. And once I decided to do that, I was basically all in. Like I kind of just tend to be the kind of person where I’m either in or out. There’s no in between. Right. So when I decided to do it, I really went all in. I went all in on writing Twitter threads. Eventually started a personal site and a personal newsletter and then grew that and then slowly expanded onto LinkedIn and stuff. Along this journey, one of my marketing heroes, Rand Fishkin, followed me back, which of course meant that I was mortified instantly and was like, well, now I can’t tweet anymore. I think I closed the app for the day and was like, I think I’m done, guys. I got to be quiet now. No. What actually happened there was I obviously did become more self-conscious but in the best way possible because I really then was like, why would Rand Fishkin follow me back? He doesn’t need my marketing advice. He already knows how to do this. It really made me double down on conveying my perspective, my experiences because then I thought, well, he doesn’t. Rand Fishkin isn’t following me because he doesn’t know how to do marketing and thus wants to learn how to do it, right? He followed me because he wants to hear my perspective on marketing, my perspective on the world of work, my perspective on food, right? So in a weird way, it kind of allowed me to be more myself online. And then we ended up becoming friends, met up for lunch with his wife, Geraldine Deruiter, and we were all just fast friends. For me, it felt like meeting old friends for the first time in real life, right? Even though, I mean, I h

What is good content? How is A.I. impacting the creation of content? And what are the opportunities for content writers in the near future? All good questions that we didn’t have answers to. Until we invited Ross Simmons to join us for the 402nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This is a good one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Create Once, Distribute Forever by Ross Simmonds The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Before we jump into this episode, I just want to give you a quick heads up that The Copywriter Accelerator will be opening up for the one and only time this year… at the end of August. I won’t share any details at the moment, you can find out more when you visit thecopywriterclub.com/waitlist. Over the past decade, written content has become a critical marketing component for tens of thousands of organizations looking to get attention online. That content takes a lot of different forms from articles and blog posts to case studies, lead magnets, white papers and other written assets used to attract and keep the attention of readers. But what makes good content? How is AI impacting content writers today? And how do you ensure that you clients see content as an investment that pays off, rather than a cost that they need to cut? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I talked with content writer and founder of the content agency Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds. Ross got his start writing about fantasy football in high school and has been recognized as a top marketer by publications like BuzzSumo and SEMrush. His work has been featured in dozens of publications including Forbes, HuffingtonPost and CBC. Ross answered those questions I just posed and a lot more. This interview opened my eyes to several new opportunities and I think you’re going to like it. But before we jump in with Ross… We have a new gift for you as a listener to The Copywriter Club Podcast. We went through the past 400 episodes of this podcast looking for the ideas that our guests have shared over the past couple of years related to finding clients. We pulled out a bunch of our favorites and compiled them into a new pocket sized guide that will inspire you as you look for ways to attract the right clients to your business. It’s a bit like having a couple dozen of the best copywriters in your pocket advising you on how to find your next client. To get your copy, visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket and download this new guide. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Ross Simmonds. Rob Marsh: Ross, welcome to the podcast. You are one of the people that I have had on my list for a long time, and have been wanting to talk to you. We’ve had a little trouble connecting the last couple of months. You’ve had some travel and lots of stuff going on. But let’s start out the way that we like to here on the podcast. And that is, tell us about your story. How did you become a content marketer and now ultimately founder of Foundation Content Marketing Agency? Ross Simmonds: Yeah, Rob, thanks for having me on. I’m excited for this conversation. I’ll take people back into time a little bit. So I’ve always had a passion for writing and for creating things from the time I was a young kid. When I was a young kid, I fell into that whole meme and being obsessed with the Roman Empire. And I was writing books about what the Roman Empire must have been like. And I was doing that probably when I was like 10 years old. So early on, I was creating and writing chapter books and stuff like that. As time went on, I continued to be passionate about writing and creating. And in university, I ran a fantasy football blog. And I was writing every single day about fantasy sports and how I thought people should adjust their strategies in the wonderful world of fantasy football. In parallel to that, me and my sister, we created a community dedicated to a video game called The Sims. Some of your listeners might be familiar with it. We played back in the The early days of The Sims when things were very pixelated and all of that stuff, graphics weren’t close to where they are today, but we ran a community on that and I was writing constantly. So at this moment, when I was writing about fantasy football in The Sims, the light bulbs went off that I could live in, arguably, the middle of nowhere. I live in a place called Nova Scotia, Canada, up on the East Coast, above Maine, small population, and I was reaching people all over the globe. And at that moment, I knew that this internet thing was going to be special. So I started to continue to work on my writing and my skills. But as the fantasy football blog took off, as the Sims community took off, my traffic went up, but my marks went down. And my mom was like, Ross, l

Finding clients is hard. And it might even be getting harder. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. In fact, there are lots of copywriters who don’t struggle to book clients for weeks or months into the future. So how do you do it? On the 401st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with client acquisition specialist, Ryan Guthrie, about the three ways to get clients. We go into depth on this. You’re going to like it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It doesn’t matter how good you are as a writer, if you don’t have good, high-paying clients, you will never have a successful copywriting business. It all comes down to your ability to attract, connect with, and get hired by business owners who will pay you to help them tell their story. And even though we’ve talked about this topic a lot on this podcast, it seems as if there’s always more to learn. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I talked with copywriter and client acquisition specilist Ryan Guthrie. Like many of us, Ryan started out as a copywriter. But he cracked the code on finding clients early on, so other copywriters began asking him for help with their own pipelines. And he shared a lot of how he does it in today’s interview. But before we jump in with Ryan… We have a new gift for you as a listener to the copywriter club podcast. We went through the past 400 episodes of this podcast looking for the ideas that our guests have shared over the past couple of years related to finding clients. We pulled out a bunch of our favorites and compiled them into a new pocket sixed guide that will inspire you as you look for ways to attract the right clients to your business. Ryan shares how he does it on this episode. But once you’re done listening, or now if you are near your phone or computer, visit thecopywriterclub.com/pocket to download your own copy of this new guide. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Ryan Guthrie… Kira Hug: All right, Ryan, let’s start with your story. How did you end up as a client acquisition consultant? Ryan Guthrie: By doing a lot of other things first. I started copywriting in February of 2020, which is an awesome time to start something new. But I was going to be a nurse, right? And I just kind of fell out of love with it. I didn’t want to go to work every day and see people having the worst day of their lives. And so I kind of dropped out of college a little bit. And my girlfriend at the time, who’s now my fiance, said, Hey, you’re a pretty good writer. Here’s this course that showed up on my Instagram feed. It’s an ad, take a look at it. So I took a look at it. And I was like, I can do this. Sure. It was a copywriting course. I can, I can do this. And so I like, fully dropped out of college and bought this course with all my savings to the horror of my mother. She was like, you know what, you go do this for a year and we’ll see what it looks like after a year and then we’ll talk about this again, right? So I did that, and so I worked at my regular job from like six to three, six in the morning, three in the afternoon, and then I would get home and I would just do copywriting stuff, right, from like four to like 10, doing hand copy and just trying to learn as much as I could going through this course. After about three months, I got my first client, and it’s a funny story, people always think they need to be super polished for that first client. I did my first sales call in the parking lot of a Trader Joe’s, And I took notes on the back of an organic cookie box. So just throwing that out there. That was my first ever sales call. I got that client. He paid me $400 for some emails. And then I was like, this is it. I’m a paid copywriter. I’m a professional. And I ditched my job. And then the next client did not come as quickly as I thought it was going to come, but the bills still kept coming. And so I was like, okay, we need to make this work now. So it’s kind of like an out of necessity thing. I just, um, did the client outreach stuff that I was taught in that course. And it, and it kind of worked. Um, it was much more of a, just, I can outwork my lack of talent kind of situation. And so after about six months, um, a little over six months, I hit my first 10 K month. And then a little over a year being in this career, I was starting to have those consistent 10K months. And funnily enough, I actually hired my mom for a little while to do some content writing for one of my clients that I didn’t want to do anymore. So it’s funny to see that come full circle. She was like, no, you have to go to college. And I’m like,

*Boom* This is the 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And our guest for this episode is the CEO of The Nonfiction Authors Association, Stephanie Chandler. She recently published the Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan and we thought it would be great to find out more about how to write, publish and launch a book into the world. Stephanie did not disappoint. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan by Stephanie Chandler The Nonfiction Author Association The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Before I introduce today’s guest and episode, this is the official 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. I’m not sure Kira and I ever envisioned this podcast going this long. In fact, other than wanting to have deep discussions that asked hard questions of expert copywriters, I’m not sure what we expected. So many people have told us they are copywriters today because they were inspired by this podcast. Or by the stories our guests have shared. Or because they jumped into one of our programs designed to help them grow. So I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for making this podcast the world’s most popular copywriting podcast. And now on to today’s show… We’ve talked about writing a book on this podcast several times. But it’s one thing to want to write a book, and another thing to have the tools and plan to make it happen. So when I got a copy of The Non-fiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan, I thought we should probably interview the author on the podcast and dive into what it takes to write and launch a book. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I talked with former copywriter and current CEO of the non-profit author’s association, Stephanie Chandler. Stephanie founded the Non-fiction author’s association, so she was the perfect person to talk to about this subject as well as when you should take a leap of faith you might not be ready for and what gets taken when thieves rob a bookstore. But before we jump in with Stephanie… There’s a question that clients ask before they decide whether something you write is worth paying a lot or a little for. That question is “Can I do this?” Most clients can write a blog post. Or an email. It might not be as good as the one you would write, but they could do a passable job. Those projects don’t feel all that valuable because clients can visualize themselves creating them. They’re not hard. Fewer clients think they can strategize and build an acquisition funnel. Or a sales page. Or a book. So these projects are more valuable to clients (which means you can charge more to do them). And almost no clients have the skills to manage sophisticated email marketing tools like Klavio, ActiveCampaign, or even ConvertKit. And if they do, they’re often too busy to do this work themselves. These skills are among the most valuable of all. So how do you add a skill like managing email marketing tools to your copywriting services? This week in The Copywriter Underground, we’ll show you. We’ve invited guest expert and email strategist Matt Brown to share exactly how to make sure your client’s emails get into their customer’s inboxes. And how to use this skill to set yourself apart from all the other “I-just-write-copy” copywriters out there. It’s a master class for all members of The Copywriter Underground and you can join us if you visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu today. But do it today, because if you’re listening to this a few days after the podcast comes out, it will be too late. Having these skills, makes getting hired by high-paying clients easier. But you have to opt in to get the training. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Stephanie. Kira Hug: Let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a writer, CEO, and all the things that you’re doing today? Stephanie Chandler: Yeah. I left the Silicon Valley back in 2003 and I opened a 2,800 square foot brick and mortar bookstore. in Sacramento, California, thinking I was going to write novels in the back office. Sounds like a really brilliant plan, right? But turns out I was a terrible fiction writer and I hated running retail store. And all I really wanted to do was be a writer. I just had known that my whole life and I didn’t know how to make a living as a writer. So I actually started doing some copywriting and writing articles for local magazines and Long story short, I ended up selling that store and then I wrote my first book. I had an agent tell me, nobody knows who you are. You need to go build an audience. So I self-published the first book and then the next year I had an audience. I built a high traffic website and I got a book deal with Wiley and then I signed with an agent and sold a couple more books. Mean

When you start writing copy at age 16, you’ve got to connect with prospects and stand out or you won’t be able to compete with more experienced copywriters. And that’s exactly what Emilia Tanase, our guest for the 399th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast did. Rob and Kira asked Emilia about how she launched her business, how she connected with two high-level mentors, and her approach to writing emails. There’s a lot of good stuff in this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Get Rich Lucky Bitch by Denise Duffield-Thomas The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Emilia’s website   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Over the past 7 years of this podcast, we’ve interviewed a really wide variety of people who have made a living out of writing copy and content. They come from all over the world and from all kinds of different backgrounds. But I think today’s guest is different from all of them in at least one way—she started working as a copywriter when she was still in high school. She’s taken a pretty interesting path to copywriting success and her early start is just a small part of her story. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter Emilia Tanase. Emilia has discovered the formula for getting noticed by mentors and figuring out ways to get found by clients without pitching. As you might imagine, starting out in high school meant she’s had to hustle to figure out how to make business work. And there’s a lot to learn from Emilia’s story. Before we jump into the interview, I want to let you know about an upcoming training happening in The Copywriter Underground that’s absolutely critical for anyone who writes emails—either for their own business or for their clients. Copywriter and email deliverability expert Matt Brown will be sharing his hard won secrets for getting emails into the inbox—rather than the promotions or spam tabs in gmail, yahoo and other bigger email programs. This takes much more than avoiding a few smammy words or reworking your subject lines. And when you know how to do this, clients will hire you to not just write emails, but to manage their web marketing strategy. It could be a game changer for your busienss. But as are most of the masterclasses we curate, this training is exclusively for members of The Copywriter Underground. You can learn more about this upcoming masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Emilia… Kira Hug: All right, Emilia, let’s start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Emilia Tanase: It actually it goes back in time to when I was 16. I started when I was in high school because my mom got really sick and so she was really struggling with keeping up with our bills and holding the household together Unfortunately, at the same time, my dad also lost his job. So she was the sole provider and money was really scarce. And when you’re in a small Romanian town, it’s pretty hard to find a job right away. So me, a teenager at the time, I was like, hey, how can I make some pocket money, help my parents out, make this a bit easier for all of us, if I can. I went online and of course I typed in, how to make money in high school. And, you know, there were the typical answers, like, wash cars or walk dogs and whatnot, but these are not really jobs that we do here in Romania. In America, sure, but here not so much. And then I found, be a copywriter or do copywriting work. I was like, what is copywriting? It sounded like, you know, patenting some intellectual property. But I Googled it and I found out it was like this whole thing that people were doing for other businesses. And when you’re that young, you don’t think that much about things. So I was like, oh, I can do this for sure. So of course, the next step was like, okay, how do I find a copywriting job fast? I landed on Craigslist and people are always very surprised when I say this. And I was shocked too, because I didn’t know what Craigslist was at the time. So I was seeing these ads for opportunities like, I’m selling a washing machine. I need a chainsaw or something like that. And then someone was like, Hey, I need an about page for, they had this local arts magazine. So I was like, cool, I can do that. I can write. So I sent them a cover letter. It was very cringy… dear sir or madam, I can do this job for you. And I think it was like $40. And I got it a couple of days later. They emailed me. And I’m pretty sure it’s because no one else had applied to that job. And that’s how I got it. But I got it. And then I went online because I was like, God, I don’t know how to write an about page, let’s figure this out. So of course, you know, the internet i

The number of people who have listened to all 400+ episodes of The Copywriter Club is likely small. Probably fewer than 100. But today’s guest on The Copywriter Club Podcast is trying to add to that number. Copywriter Lauren Esmay has been listening to every episode and posting about them on LinkedIn. We talked about that as well as how she’s built her business over the past few years and what’s coming next. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The P7 Client Attraction System The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: In the next couple of weeks we’ll post the official 400th episode of this podcast. Unofficially we’re already past that number as we’ve had a handful of un-numbered episodes posted between the official one. If you were going to listen to every episode, I estimate it would take you about 14 days or so without stopping to eat, sleep or do anything else. I’m not suggesting you do that… but I’m not NOT suggesting that you do it either. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter Lauren Esmay. Lauren recently took it upon herself to listen to every episode of this podcast and she’s been posting her take aways from each episode on LinkedIn. Looking back on what she shares has reminded me of a lot of great, forgotten advice and ideas and insights shared by so many smart copywriters over the years. And as you’ll see as you listen to today’s episode, Lauren has used this content tactic to connect with a who’s who of experts in the copy and marketing world. That’s not all we talked about, so stick around to here more about Lauren’s story. Before we jump into the interview, you know I’m going to talk a bit about the best copywriter community The Copywriter Underground. We are working hard to make it the most valuable copywriting community and training vault available anywhere. So we’re constantly adding the latest information and help for our members. One thing that has changed recently is the standard Google, Yahoo and other big emailers are using to determine where the email you send ends up. Sometimes that’s the inbox. Sometimes it’s the spam or promotions folders. And sometimes they decide not to send your email at all. It’s true. You hit send, your email service provider sends your message out into the ether… and Google can simply decide that’s as far as it goes. So we’ve invited email deliverability specialist Matt Brown to share with the members of The Copywriter Underground exactly what you need to do to make sure that doesn’t happen to you… or your clients. It’s happening this month… June 2024. And if you want the latest insights on how to make sure your work hits the inbox, you need to be in this masterclass. We’ve shared some information about it along with all of the other benefits you get as a Copywriter Underground member at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Let me just add that if you know this stuff that Matt will be sharing, you’ll be a much more valuable resource for your clients than a copywriter who just writes up some emails and hands over a google doc full of copy. In fact, if you add the skills Matt will be teaching to your services, you’ll be more likely to land good, high-paying email clients on long retainers than if you just write emails. Join us at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Lauren. Kira Hug: Lauren, how did you get started as a copywriter? Lauren Esmay: So first, thanks for having me. My way into copywriting is much like many other people I’ve talked to. There was no linear path. I have several degrees in psychology and I went to med school for a bit. I did a lot of different things that I’m just like, I know I want to help people and this is how I’m going to show up. I tried to find places that I thought could make me financially successful and I just kept realizing that I was not happy in these places. And at the beginning of the pandemic in 2020, the place that I was working for—we took several different crisis lines including high risk suicide crisis lines and veterans crisis lines. It just became very overwhelming for me. And I also had just started my PhD. I’m like, well, what am I going to do? Like I need money. I can’t afford to quit. And one of the projects that I had started for the place I was working, the nonprofit, was putting together a resource list when a lot of the inpatient treatment programs began to get capped for their wait list. So we had to find plan Bs for these people that needed immediate treatment. And that’s when I started looking at these websites and I was like, these people have credibility with their degrees and 20 plus years of experience, but it’s 2020 and so much lives online. I don’t trust this enough to put this into

Over the past few years the ways we work have changed. And the work we do has changed too. In the 397th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and regenerative business designer Helen Tremethick about navigating the changes and creating a business that works for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman Helen’s website Helen’s Cuppa Link (talked about on the show) The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: For a lot of freelancers who write content and copy, work has changed pretty dramatically over the past year. Some of us, especially those who are just starting out have been impacted by tools like Claude and ChatGPT. While others may be struggling a bit thanks to layoffs in niches like tech and SaaS. As opportunities change, smart business owners change along with them. And relationships become even more important than ever. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter and regenerative business designer Helen Tremethick. Helen has worked with several business owners as they’ve transformed the work they do. Sometime changing up their deliverables. Other times switching niches or the focus of their work entirely. As we spoke, we kept coming back to one idea… relationships. They’re more important than ever, and that’s one thing that probably won’t change in the near future. Before we jump into the interview, I want to let you know about an upcoming training happening in June in The Copywriter Underground. If you listened to last week’s episode, you learned a bit about the technical things you need to do to ensure the emails you write get to the inbox and not the spam folder and then get opened. But it can be hard to see exactly what to do as you listen to a podcast… it’s audio only, so seeing where to find the tools and settings to adjust, well, you just can’t. So we asked email deliverability specialist Matt Brown to demonstrate exactly how to set up your ESP and google postmaster tools so your emails have a better chance of getting where you want them to go. This is a skill set that clients need desperately. And when you can bring them along with your writing skills, you have what it takes to land high paying email retainers that can last for months or even years. But to get this training, you must be a member of The Copywriter Underground. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Helen. Kira Hug: All right, Helen, we are not going to start with your story, because that’s where we started last time, which we figured out was episode 176. And you figured out it was mid-March 2020, so right before the world changed dramatically. So it’s good to be with you again. And I think a good place to start could just be around a line of copy on your website, on your home page, there’s a line of copy that says, burn it down isn’t good business strategy, but when something’s got to give dot, dot, dot, and then you go into your brilliant copy. But that grabbed my attention because I feel like I’ve heard a lot of people around me recently talking about burning it all down and a conversation with neighbors, business owners. And so from your perspective, Where do you feel like people in the online business space, copywriters, where are they at right now with what they’re feeling, what they’re doing in their businesses? From your experience coaching them, what are you seeing and feeling right now? Helen Tremethick: Oh my goodness. You know, I actually just had a call this morning where I was talking to somebody about exactly this, where it feels like there’s a little bit of a different flavor in the air right now that’s different from what we knew before. And maybe this is before the last time we spoke, which was before the world shut down, or maybe it’s been gradually moving toward that. I’m not exactly sure, but there is a little bit of a different flavor. The way that people want to work with each other is different, the amount of connection that we want is different, and that I think is more and more connection, more community, more togetherness. And opposing that is that the conversation I’m having a lot lately is that people are having a hard time stretching that dollar the way they used to. Grocery bills have gone up. Everything has gone up except for wages. And so as a small business owner, often we are the canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. So we see this ripple effect before a lot of the rest of the world does. And there’s an opportunity there as well, not to silver lining being the canary in the coal mining, but there is an opportunity there for us to start changing and start navigating n

We’ve been talking a lot about email on the podcast lately (see the last four or five episodes). But getting your emails opened takes more than good copy. So for the 396th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob spoke with copywriter and email deliverability specialist, Matt Brown about all the non-copy things you need to know about getting your emails opened. And…how to add deliverability and ESP management to your services so you can attract long-term email clients. This is a good one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: deliverabilitynow.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Looking back at the last four or five episodes of this podcast, you might notice a theme. It wasn’t intentional, but somehow the last several guests have all focused on email, email strategy, and creating or running a business focused on a regular or daily email. For some reason, email seems to be having a moment. Maybe it’s the rise of new email platforms like Substack and Beehiv that make writing emails and growing an audience easier than before. Or it might be the fact that it is getting harder to connect with a regular audience on social media… posts, tweets, reels just don’t reach as many people as they used to. And paid ads on those platforms are getting more expensive and less effective. So attracting an audience that you can connect with regularly with email is as important—maybe more important—than ever before. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed copywriter and email deliverability expert Matt Brown. I wanted to talk with Matt because it’s one thing to write and send emails and quite another to do what it takes to make sure those emails actually arrive in your reader’s inboxes and get opened. It happens less than you think. And Matt knows how to fix that. He shared a lot of technical stuff that you have to get right. If you know this stuff, you can be far more valuable to your clients that if you just hand over a google doc with the text of your emails. This is a skill set that can result in long term relationships with great clients. So stick around. Before we jump into the interview, I want to let you know about an upcoming training happening in The Copywriter Underground on this very topic. After recording today’s interview, Matt mentioned that it can be tough to wrap your head around some of the ideas he shared without a demonstration where he opens up an email account and shows you how to make adjustments. So he offered to show us exactly how to make sure your emails land in the inbox in a training for members of The Copywriter Underground. If you’re listening to this episode and think, I need to know how to do this, or I want to be able to offer this skill to my clients (and earn thousands of dollars from them in the process), then this training is for you. Go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join the Underground today. And we’ll send you details on how to access this incredibly valuable training. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Matt. Matt, welcome to the podcast. I reached out to you because we’ve been talking to so many people about email. I feel like there’s kind of been a change around the way people are thinking about email with all of these new tools that have come online in the last couple of years as far as managing email newsletters and that kind of thing. So I thought it’d be really helpful to have you on, but before we get into all of the things we want to talk about email, tell us how you became not just a copywriter, but an email deliverability expert and copywriter. Matt Brown: Yeah. So I’ll give you the long story since we’re on a podcast together and it has the inciting incident from a story and then the point of no return. I think this was back in like 2019, I kind of got my start in marketing and SEO and content writing, and then I wanted to learn more about copywriting. And I kept learning about that. And then I started working with people who were doing course launches and sort of Jeff Walker style product launch formula emails and for a few years, I was working with people where I’d write my 12 emails, 15 emails in a Google doc, and then just send it over to the client and say, Hey, here you go. Let me know what you think. Let me know if you want any edits. And then we’d work on the copy from there. And then either they or their team would load the emails into whatever email platform they were using. And I was like, great. And after the launch, we’d check in like emails did great. We loved it. Yada, yada, yada, that sort of thing. But I was working on a launch—’ll have to go back and figure out exactly when this was, but it was 2019, 2020—and my client was like, Hey, Matt, our ActiveCampaign person just bailed on us. Is th

The demand for emails is enormous. And there are probably more copywriters writing emails than any other product. But that doesn’t mean those emails are great. Some are barely readable. Others go straight to the junk folder—where they belong. There’s never been more need for better emails than today. So for the 395th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we asked email strategist and copywriter Donnie Bryant to share what he knows about email. Donnie is the author of Subject Line Science, a short book that will help you get more emails opened. If you write emails for clients or your own business, you’ll want to lick the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript now.   Stuff to check out: Subject Line Science by Donnie Bryant Tricks of the Mind by Derren Brown SubjectLineScience.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about email. When copywriters reach out to us, they often ask what’s the best way to learn how to write emails and probably more importantly, land clients who need help with regular emails. And it kind of feels like there’s been a sea change around email over the past couple of years. Maybe it’s because email is a great way to connect one on one… or at least in a way that feels one to one. OR maybe it’s the shift in buying behavior that’s happened over the past decade. I’m not sure… but what I am sure about is that email isn’t going anywhere. It’s getting more important, not less. And it’s a great service to offer for clients who need ongoing help… that is the kind of clients you can work with long term. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed copywriter Donnie Bryant. Donnie recently wrote a book about subject lines and what it takes to write them, so he was the perfect guest to invite on the show to talk about email, strategizing a campaign—which I asked him to walk through step by step, as well as what it takes to break into the financial copy niche. If you want to write emails as part of your business, you’ll want to listen to this episode until the end. Now before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May. Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now. NOTE: Sorry, this bonus is gone. We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to subscribers who paid to recieve his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. Even new subscribers to his newsletter don’t have access. But he offered to give this strategy—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May—and only for members of The Underground. If you were to purchase these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. Plus you get all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with your membership in The Underground. There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Donnie. Donnie, let’s kick this off with your story. How did you get to be a copywriter? I think you’ve been described as one of the best email copywriters, sales copywriters out there. So tell us your story. Donnie Bryant: Yeah, well, it didn’t really start out that way. Right. I think I feel like a lot of us copywriters kind of stumbled into it. When I was a very young boy, I always wanted to write. But I really thought I would write science books or some kind of nonfiction books. I often tell the story. My grandmother had, in her house, 25,000 books—kind of like your wall there. That’s nuts. Rob Marsh: People won’t be able to see it because we don’t have the video here, but yeah, there’s a lot of books behind me. Donnie Bryant: Okay. So I grew up loving books. I thought I would write them, but it’s kind of a childhood dream. I also wanted to be an astronaut, but that didn’t happen. Getting into regular life, I went to college, got married, and then got in

Someone’s got to be the best. And at least a few people believe that Daniel Throssell is Australia’s best copywriter—even if only because Daniel told them he was : ). In the 394th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob brought Daniel into the studio to talk about his email strategy, world building, and how he turned a children’s book into Australia’s best selling book. And Daniel got real when it comes to what a day in his life really looks like. This is the second time, Daniel has been on the podcast (the first episode is here). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript of today’s appearance on the show. Stuff to check out: Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks Tough Titties by Laura Belgray A great book (Dark Matter) by Blake Crouch Master and Commander by Aubrey Maturin Stop Reading the News by Rolf Dobelli The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Daniel’s Website Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’re going to say you’re the best at something, eventually you’re going to have to back it up. The late Gary Halbert once sent out a newsletter titled “why I am the best copywriter alive”. Of course, any one can make a claim like that. But eventually you have to back it up… and at least when it comes to Gary, he had the clients, the sales, and the results to make a pretty strong claim on the title. Which brings me to the guy that many people call Australia’s best copywriter. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter Daniel Throssell, who has been called Australia’s best copywriter by many in the marketing world. But does he have the chops to back it up? Indeed he does. We covered a lot of ground in this interview—we went really deep on his approach to email, which in many ways he treats as if he’s writing a novel. He also shared a few of the details about his strategy for pushing several books to #1 on the best seller list, a strategy by the way that works for all kinds of products, not just books. And Daniel got real when he talked about what a typical day looks like for him. We think you’re going to like this one. But before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May. Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now. We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that today’s guest Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. You’re going to hear a little bit about it in this episode, but Daniel only scratches the surface here. Because the only other time he’s shared his strategy was with his paying subscribers and he wants to make sure to honor them by not sharing it elsewhere. However, he has made one exception. He’s sharing it for a limited time with the paying subscribers of The Copywriter Underground for just a few days in the month of May. If you want to learn more about the strategy he teases on this episode, jump into the underground today so we can share the details of how to get your hands on the whole thing with you. There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Daniel. Kira Hug: All right. Welcome, Daniel. I want to kick off with a question about the last year in business. So we can zero in on the last six months, last year, but I’m curious, what has surprised you the most about your business in particular over the last year or so? Daniel Throssell: Wow, that question kind of hit me. That’s the most surprising. I was not ready to answer that. The last six months. Kira Hug: I don’t think I’ve ever asked that. Daniel Throssell: So yeah, I wasn’t even expecting that as the first question. I thought it was gonna be like, Daniel, nice to nice to finally get on the podcast with you. So okay, last six months, what’s happened? Honestly, what has surprised me? I don’t know how relevant this is going to be to people. But I’ll just be honest—how well my monthly subscription has gone. I don’t follow a lot of news, but I’ve heard people saying, you know, bad economy, whatever. People are not spending as much. I literally have a zero news policy. I don’t watch anything. There was an ec

What is the difference between showing up as a copywriter and showing up as a strategist? In the 393rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Eman Ismail about how she changed her title and the work she does to reflect a new and more satisfying role of “email strategist”. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When we coach the copywriters inside the copywriter think tank or in our group coaching groups—which by the way are open now and if you’re interested you can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/coach—sorry didn’t really mean to take that tangent… but when we coach copywriters one idea that comes up a lot is the need to not just show up as a writer… an order taker… or as a vendor, but rather you need to be a problem solver. And often that means taking on the role of a strategist in addition to the work you do as a writer. But how do you do that? It’s one thing to say, I’m a strategist and quite another to actually do the work that strategy requires. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed email strategist—not copywriter—Eman Ismail. Eman share why she rejects the title of copywriter today and what it really means to show up as a strategist. This might not be the kind of thing a beginner can do, but if you’ve got some experience creating copy and serving your clients, you may be picking up the expertise you need to show up as a strategist for your clients. Be sure to stick around to hear how Eman does it. Now before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about The Copywriter Underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, I want to give you two reasons to jump in now. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with copywriter Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank. What she’s built is amazing. We asked Michal if she would share her masterclass with The Underground. But because Michal actually sells this to her own email list, she asked us to limit access to just a couple of day in May. Which means if you want to get the Client Emails Masterclass for free, you’ve got to jump into The Underground now. We also have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to subscribers who paid to recieve his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. Even new subscribers to his newsletter don’t have access. But he offered to give this strategy—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May—and only for members of The Underground. If you were to purchase these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. Plus you get all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with your membership in The Underground. There’s never been a better time to visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eman. Kira Hug: Let’s start with recent moves you’ve made to level up in your business. Because when you were here last, we talked about your origin story in your business and how you were leveling up at the time. And what I love about you and just watching you and, and, um, hearing from you is you’re like constantly leveling up in big ways. And so why don’t you just describe maybe the most recent changes that have helped you get to that next level? Eman Ismail: You know, I’m going to say really thinking of myself as a strategist and positioning myself as a strategist. So I have always loved the copywriting aspect. Obviously, I am an email strategist and copywriter, so I do a lot of emails. But, you know, it took me a while to get out of the idea of, only I can do this. You know, this is why I can’t hire anyone else, because only I can do it, how my clients want me to do it. It took me a while to realize this, but finally realized that’s not true. There are plenty of amazing email copywriters in the world who can do what I do and who can support me and help me help my clients. So I’ve I’ve actually leaned into the strategy role even more and got help and hired writers to help me with the execution so um that means I get to do more of what I enjoy which is the like the putting the pieces of the puzzle together and figuring out what the sequence needs um and then I get to hand over my email strategy to someone I work with or someone that I hire and let them know o

When it comes down to it, the thing most copywriters want to build is a business that is high-margin (it makes money) and fun to run (it’s enjoyable). But achieving that goal is harder it appears. So we invited Ian Stanley to join us for the 392nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked Ian about how he did it—created a business that is profitable and fun. We also asked him about sales coaching, breaking up his partnership, his approach to email and his new comedy special. To hear what Ian had to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: How do you create a high-margin company that is fun to run? That’s pretty much the goal we all share… earn enough money for the lifestyle we want—however you define that—that’s the high margin part. And enjoy life doing whatever it is you do, from work to whatever you do in your personal time—that’s the fun to run part. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter, entrepreneur and comedian Ian Stanley. This is actually Ian’s second appearance on the podcast, so we caught up on how his business has changed in the past couple of years. And as we talked about that, we asked Ian about sales training, breaking up a partnership, commedy and buidling a company that makes money and is fun to run. One caution about this episode, Ian likes to swear. We’ve cut most of that out of the interview in order not to offend the censors at Apple who like to put an explicit label on anything rated higher than PG. But if we missed any, we apologize. That’s just who Ian is and how he shows up. One other thing before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, let me give you two reasons to jump in now. During the month of May we have two incredible bonuses for members. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank, and will be sharing this usually-paid masterclass with members of the underground… but only for one week in May. And we have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. It works for non-book products too. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to paid subscribers to his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. But he offered to give it—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May in The Underground. If you’ve been thinking of joining, these are two very good reasons to jump in now—if you were to purchase either one of these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. And I haven’t even mentioned all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with these two bonuses. Visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Ian. Kira Hug: All right, Ian, let’s jump in, not with your story, because we know part of your story from our last interview, but let’s just start with changes, at least one change you’ve made over the last four years. Maybe we talked to you four years ago, Rob, do you know? We’ll say four years ago. Ian Stanley: Something like that. Kira Hug: Over four years ago. Rob Marsh: I mean, it was definitely, it was what? Episode 208. So it’s closing in on four years anyways. Kira Hug: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what is one big change you’ve made to your business since we last chatted? Ian Stanley: To my business? I feel like little businesses like this change constantly. So honestly, the biggest change that’s happened is my business partner and I, so basically I was living in LA. I’d gone there to pursue standup. And then this COVID thing happened and stand up itself was, you know, in question. Cancel culture was at its absolute peak. I had a guy tell me that I was, I said in an ad, I said, I’m a white man. Not exactly. And he said, you can’t say that. And I went, I, what do you mean? That’s a fact. What am I supposed to say? Um, and that’s when I was like, Jesus, this is getting bad. While I was in LA watching nonviolent protests, violently, uh, protest from my actual window. Um, and so I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I left LA and I mean, it sounds weird to say now, cause I feel like standup is almost bigger than ever in certain ways. Um, But it died off for a while there. And I think that the worse the world is, the more

We’ve talked a lot about building your authority and finding clients on LinkedIn on this podcast. But I don’t think we’ve ever spoken with anyone who built a six-figure copywriting business entirely on that platform—without a website or any other social media presence. On the 391st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we spoke with Alefiya Khoraki who did exactly that. And if you’re looking for clients on LinkedIn, you’re definitely going to want to listen to this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Sell Like Crazy by Sabri Suby The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: After recording almost 400 episodes of this podcast—the official number 400 will be released in about 9 weeks and that doesn’t include several unnumbered bonus episodes we’ve recorded—but with that many interviews under out belts, it gets pretty easy to identify trends and shifts in the copywriting world based on what copywriters tell us about how they find clients, the services they offer and the struggles they go through. And one of the trends we’ve heard about over and overa again in the past year or more is how effective LinkedIn is for finding clients. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Alefiya Khoraki. She’s built a six figure business in less than a year, primarily by posting content on Linkedin and commenting on other content there. That’s pretty good for someone who got her start trying to raise $800 for a project while she was in school. But before we get to that, if you’ve been wondering how to use AI in your copywriting or content writing business, I’ve got something for you. A couple months ago i shared the way I use AI tools like Claude and ChatGPT to write bullets, headlines and subheads with the participants of a copywriting summit. It’s a simple google document with the exact prompt I use to write hundreds of great headlines and bullets in seconds. Plus instructions on how to go back and forth with the AI model you’re using to get even better results. You can even add a short ten-ish minute video training where I show you how i use it. If you’re new to writing with A.I., this is a great way to get started. And if you’ve been using A.I. for awhile, this training may open your eyes to what’s possible with a megaprompt. The document is free. And you can get it at thecopywriterclub.com/aiwriter. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Alefiya. Kira Hug: Let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Alefiya Khoraki: So it started in a very weird way. You probably hear this a lot from copywriters. Back in COVID, I started my bakery business because I was still in university and for the final year, we had a very special ceremony for which I needed to raise 800 USD. And I was like, OK, let’s try something. So every day I was trying new things. Let’s try selling cottage cheese one day. Let’s try selling this. Let’s try selling that. And then I ended up starting my own bakery because I was working. I was studying in the morning, so I had time for myself in the evenings. And then I started running Facebook ads for that. And I was like, oh wow, I really enjoy this part. I didn’t even know what copywriting is. I didn’t even know what A-B testing is. Because for my bakery business, that was the first time I downloaded the Instagram app. So I was very far off from the whole online marketing world. And then a lady was introduced to our community and she hosted a workshop. And there, she introduced me to Boss Babe. Boss Babe is Natalie Ellis and Danielle Canty. And they were doing a summit with Tony Robbins, Young Guys EOC, and all that. And then at that time, to learn all these marketing skills for my bakery business. And I was studying Sabri Suby’s book, Sell Like Crazy, and I was like, I really enjoy this. But I didn’t have the courage to quit my bakery business because people started calling me the brownie queen of Kampala. This was back in Africa. So I was doing all that, and I was really enjoying it. And then I had to travel to Pakistan for six months to my grandparents’ place. And I was like, oh, shucks. OK, now my pocket money’s stopped, and I need to do something. So what I did is I pitched, like, 50 bakery owners that, hey, let me be your bakery consultant, and let me help you grow your business. Nobody replied. And then I was like, OK, I’ve got to do something in this marketing thing. And somehow I came across Alex Cattoni’s YouTube channel. And I was like, OK, this is something called copywriting. And if I want to pursue marketing and I have to write for that, OK, maybe I was writing my Facebook ads. So how hard can this be? And that’s how I started wri

Want clients to find you instead of always having to pitch and find them? Then you need to be where they are. And in most cases, that means somewhere online—Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, LinkedIn or in your own newsletter. In the 390th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with former dentist turned copywriter Kieran Drew about how he took two years to grow an online presence that earns him six figures a year today. This one is worth listening to twice. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Blockbuster Principle by Michael Simmons (article) The Almanack of Naval Ravakan Poor Charlie’s Almanack by Charlie Munger The Status Game by Will Storr Mastery by Robert Greene Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground HypeFury (posting tool) Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Last week I started off the podcast by talking about the idea of slow and steady growth. This week is a little different. It’s about overnight success. Or rather, what might look like overnight success, but really is a two year effort to build and iterate something that works. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and social media expert and not-so-funny stand up comic Kieran Drew. Kieran is one of those over night success stories. When I first came across him online, he was in the middle of a six-figure launch that surprised even him. And in the year since then, he’s done it twice more. But the back story is less instant recognition and more grind and fail, then grind and fail again until something works. But before we get to what Kieran shared about launches, growing a newsletter and social media presence and why he gave up a promising career and guaranteed income for something a lot riskier like copywriting, I want to mention again our free report called how to find clients. I recently took a week to rework and revise one of our most popular client finding resources… this report. it’s completely updated for 2024 and now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… many of them could help you attract a client in the next 24 hours. Wither we’ve used these ourselves, or we know other successful copywriters who have landed good, high-paying clienets with them. I’ve said it before…This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. In fact, if you’re just going to download it to get to it later, don’t bother. It’s too valuable to not get used. But if you’re ready to take action and go after a new client, this report includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. Get your copy now at thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kieran. Kira Hug: All right, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Yeah, sure. Kieran Drew: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on because I have devoured your podcast. When I first heard of writing and copywriting, I must have listened to like 80 of your episodes because it was a very exciting and scary world, copywriting. Rob Marsh: So you only have 320 to go, it sounds like. Kieran Drew: I know.I had to start doing the work at one point. It’s been a massive help. I got into copywriting while I was a dentist, up until a couple of years ago and when COVID hit. I never really enjoyed my job as a dentist. The pay was pretty good, but unfortunately, I was working six days a week and I sort of lacked that creative fulfillment. And when COVID hit, obviously we couldn’t see patients from home. So I had a couple of months and I thought, you know what, let’s have a little look at what we could do here. And I actually decided to be a standup comedian and I started writing jokes in the morning and thankfully no one actually heard my jokes, but what I noticed was those few hours in the morning when I was writing flew by. And that was my first taste of flow. So I started to ask myself, how can we build a writing career from this? And I found blogging. I sucked at all that. I failed for like a year. I built a website that all went terribly. I tried writing on Instagram, Reddit, and it all just failed one bit after another. And then I met a friend on Twitter and he said, have you ever heard of this thing called copywriting? And until that time I thought copywriting was for lawyers, right? Like the circle with the R. Iit was really cool to realize that you can combine writing with persuasion and psychology. I fell in love. I mean, I sucked at it. I’m still not that great, but I fell in love with it from th

You’ve heard the saying: slow and steady wins the race. Well, that’s exactly the approach our guest for the 389th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast built her business. Today we’re talking with copywriter Kim Kiel about getting better month and month, and year after year—and not getting caught up in the hustle. And we covered a lot more. You’ll want to tune in for this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: I love stories about copywriters and other freelancers who find amazing success right out of the gate. They’re working with great, high-paying clients on big assignments almost from day one. Those stories illustrate what’s possible to those of us who are just beginning the journey. But, those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Very few copywriters hit a home run on their first at bat, or even their second or third. For them, slow and steady wins the race. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and brand voice expert Kim Kiel. Kim’s business growth is the perfect example of the slow and steady copywriter business—getting a bit better every year by charging a bit more, upleveling clients as she gained experience and not getting caught up in the rush to hustle. We talked to Kim about that as well as her unicorn client, her take on the nine word email and why she always follows up every pitch. But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kim. Kira Hug: All right, Kim, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Kim Kiel: Well, uh, I got us to tell you, I’m having kind of like a full circle moment because it was about five or six years ago that I was in my kitchen, you know, but bubbling around doing whatever I had to do and listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast and hearing Joel Kletcke, Tarzan Kay, early Justin Blackman talking about this field of copywriting and how they had some really good successes. And it was right around that time that I was needing to find another way to work because I had a day job. In the nonprofit sector, I worked in charity for a couple of decades as a fundraiser, fundraising copywriter, front line communications. And that sort of daily commute and the schedule with the kids, school schedules wasn’t working anymore. And so I needed to make a shift. And so I discovered the Copywriter Club at the same time as I kind of discovered this whole online world of business. The people I heard speaking on your podcast gave me a lot of hope and possibility. And for me to be sitting here now recording on this podcast, like I feel like I’ve made it, like I’m having my little Sally Field moment. So that’s sort of a very… Rob Marsh: It’s really nice of you to say, and it’s just really gratifying to hear that. Like, you’re not the first person to say it. It makes us feel good. So thank you for saying that, even though you didn’t have to. Kim Kiel: Well, it’s 100% true. Rob Marsh: Okay, well, yeah, let’s talk about how you took that early desire and turned it into a functioning business. Kim Kiel: Sure. So after I discovered this whole online world of business and I discovered the field of copywriting, which I had already been doing, but I didn’t know that’s what you called it. Then I decided to go all in on it and I quit my day job and my first client was actually that employer. So that was sort of how I made

What does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to “get in the game’ so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Eddie’s website Full Transcript: Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned. But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie. Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that’s what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that’s It’s really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn’t really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn’t know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn’t know they were called copywriters. So this goes to show how little I knew about this discipline in this profession before getting into it. But I looked it up and I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll try that. And I went in and I think I got the job just on the back of my English degree, because It was a brand new department. They were writing job ads. It was a contract role. I wasn’t getting any health insurance. I was making $15 an hour. So it was one of those. And I took the job just because I was like, hey, I can make a living writing. And quickly learned that my worth in that role was based on how many times I can get people to click and how many times I can get people to take an action. And so independently, just kind of doing my research, realized that I was doing something called direct response copywriting. And then I kind of went down the rabbit hole. I got really interested in that profession and that discipline and started consuming as much as I could about it. I started just reading books and watching seminars, listening to podca

Most copywriters and content writers don’t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that’s a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Jason’s Offer for Copywriters The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again. But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason. Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let’s kick off with your story. Let’s start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let’s start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry. Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don’t even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box. And so there was a company name there. I was like, I’m going to work for that company and I’m going to go on tour with Rush and I’m going to do this. And over the years, I’ve just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn’t all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work. But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesom

Some people just get stuff done while others get to the end of the day, look back, and wonder what they did all day. On the 386th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob’s talk with brand builder, prolific content creator, and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda revealed her secrets for getting stuff done, creating fly wheels (instead of funnels) to keep moving readers to other parts of her business, and adding a thousand subscribers to her newsletter every month. She calls it realistic productivity—the kind you can do when you’re running your own business and have three kids—and you’ll want to hear how she does it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Life’s a Game (Amanda’s course) Hypefury Taplio The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Some people seem to have an other worldly ability to get stuff done. While the rest of us struggle through our daily to-do lists and often fail to check off more than one or two items, they post great, well-thought out content several times a day to social media, they create new products, regular emails, launch and promote courses, and maybe even crank out a few pages for the book they’re working on. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I sat down with brand builder, creator and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda is one of those people who just gets stuff done. She’s running three different content businesses, writing a book, taking on work as a part-time CMO and is launching a course in a couple of days. So how does she get it all done? We talked about the systems she uses to produce her weekly newsletters and daily social media content so that it all gets written in one day a month, plus an hour or two a week to schedule posts. And her system has helped her grow her newsletter by about 1000 new subscribers every month. If you produce content to support or grow your own business, you’re definitely going to want to hear what she has to say. But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few days. Now, let’s jump to my discussion with Amanda. Amanda, let’s get started with your story. You’ve done so many things, vice president marketing, CMO, you’re building three businesses. How did you get here? Amanda Goetz: Oh, gosh. So where do I start? I grew up on a farm in Central Illinois. I’m a first generation college grad. And for me, my start was I graduated early from college because my accounting T.A. offered me a job at Ernst and Young. And I was still first semester of my senior year. And I was like, OK, I think I can graduate early if I take 18 hours. So I added a course. I graduated early. But my senior year of college, I took 18 hours of classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I got on a bus every Wednesday night. I went from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, up to Chicago. I worked at Ernst & Young in the Sears Tower in Chicago, Thursdays and Fridays. I studied all day Saturday, went back to my roommates on Sunday and did it all again. Rob Marsh: Wow, that’s nuts. Amanda Goetz: I definitely have found that just the way that I’m wired and I am open to pushing myself and seeing what I’m capable of. But through those years I also learned what burnout looks like and where my limits are. I worked at Ernst & Young for a few years. That took me from Chicago to New York, where I finally realized I needed to be more consumer-facing. I didn’t like the financial services. I went to go work for a celebrity wedding planner, which is kind of a whole funny chapter, but I learned so much about what it meant to have a personal brand. He had a reality TV show that we worked on. He had books, he had licensing deals. So that was kind of my first real mini CMO role. But also seeing the value of a personal brand up close and personal. So I did that for a few years. That also allowed me to travel the world, which was really cool because my parents have never been on an airplane. So It’s a hilarious upbringing. So I was like, I’m headed to Australia to go plan a Major League Baseball

Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about. But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few days. Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say… Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let’s kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you? Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we’re seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we’re like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here. Rob Marsh: So for anybody who’s not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let’s just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it? Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there’s two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we’re never all going to agree. It’s just not going to happen. Or we can educate consumers so that they’re making purchasing decisions that are going to align with their values, their ethics, what they’re actually looking for, and really do the job of vetting the things. Because we’ve all had experiences of things not being quite what we expected, but because these people are really great marketers, a lot of times really are using really amazing copywriters, we’re easily persuaded. And persuasion is a double-edged sword. Michelle Mazur: And I think Maggie and I bring a unique set of skills to this conversation because. It is easy for her and I to clock what is happening, like what persuasion strategy is being triggered and being like, oh, they’re using scarcity or they’re using a combination of these to ratchet up the buying tension and pressure and then putting their solution as the only way to buy. And so we’re skilled at seeing that. I really wanted to relay to people that, hey, if yo

At some point in your business journey, you will hit a snag. An obstacle. A bump in the road. These bottlenecks hold you back from the kind of growth or results you want. In the 384th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with business consultant Josh Long about the various bottlenecks that hold us back and what to do to breakthrough and achieve more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Bottleneck Breakthrough by Josh Long (book) The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes Blue Ocean Strategy by Chan Kim. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Every business—large and small, successful or struggling, profitable or barely scraping by hits it’s share of bottlenecks. If you’re struggling or barely scraping by, those bottlenecks are usually obvious. Not enough leads. Not closing enough projects. Or not enough profit. Identifying bottlenecks in a successful business can be a little more difficult… it takes a deeper look at what’s holding you back or slowing you down. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I had a chance to talk with business consultant, coach and author Josh Long. Josh is the author of a fantastic book, Bottleneck Breakthroughs, that is written to help business owners of all sizes figure out what’s holding them back. And during our conversation we stepped through what it takes to grow and build a business at all stages, and how our businesses are slowed down when we don’t pay attention to the six levers Josh wrote about in his book. We stepped through all six and if you’re a copywriter or content writer with your own business, you’ll definitely want to hear what Josh had to share. But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few weeks. Now to our interview with Josh… Rob Marsh: All right, Josh, I’m familiar with you and your book and some of the stuff that you do, but just to get started here and let our audience know, tell me a little bit about how you became a management consultant, business coach, author and all of the things that you’re doing today. Josh Long: Yeah, Rob, thanks. Well, when I was in kindergarten and they said, what do you want to be when you grow up? I just thought, you know, that’s what I want to be—a consultant. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Josh Long: Not quite, not quite on the radar. Back then I was trying to get into med school and I had a professor who suggested I get my MBA while I was waiting to get into med school. I didn’t even know what MBA stood for. I got in and went to Fresno State. They had an entrepreneurship program. And you could major in your MBA in entrepreneurship. And I was like, that’s crazy. And I loved it. I had met my wife while I was in grad school, and every doctor that I knew that was married before med school wasn’t married after med school. I knew that I valued her more than my career, so I decided to go the entrepreneurial route. I got out, tried a software venture in grad school that failed, but it was a really cool opportunity. Then my roommate was in the mortgage business, so I got into the mortgage world. I quickly learned how little I knew how to run a company. So a friend of a friend introduced me to a guy named Dan Kennedy and I latched onto his stuff and just gobbled it up. And it really helped me understand what it takes to get clients, and to sell to clients, and to understand that dynamic of just building demand and then go from there. And then I filed bankruptcy. I had a mortgage brokerage for four years, and went down in a ball of flames. And while I was licking my wounds, figuring out what I wanted to do, I had read a guy’s book called The Ultimate Sales Machine by a guy named Chet Holmes. And I really liked it so I reached out to him and went to work for him and grew to be his right-hand man in that company for a couple of years. I ended up becoming marketing director and realized I could go out and do consulting on my own. I have done that since about 2010. And so that’s how I ended up getting into management consulting through the door of Dan Kennedy and marketing

Success in business isn’t easy. But finding success requires you to do things you may not love—like creating relationships with potential customers daily, working on your business (not your client’s) every day, or even going all in on a daily writing habit. In the 383rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob spoke with copyhackers Joanna Wiebe who says these (and several other daily activities) are her non-negotiables. They happen every day—no matter what. If creating your own daily non-negotiable is all you get out of this episode, it will be well worth your time, but there is so much more. So check it out… Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff you should check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It’s been more than seven years since we last chatted with today’s guest on the podcast. In the meantime, she just keeps growing her business. This time around we asked her about the ins and outs of working with family members, building authority, and doing what she calls the daily non-negotiables. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of CopyHackers Joanna Wiebe. Many of you know that Kira and I met in one of Jo’s programs. So we owe a lot to her. But just as importantly, Joanna is one of those online personalities who is just plain generous with her help and advice. And that’s likely a big part of why she’s been so successful. As usual, we think you’re going to want to stick around for this one. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve told you about the benefits you get as a member. We’ve been working hard on how to make The Underground even more useful and helpful to the copywriters and content writers who are members… if you listened to last week’s episode with Csaba Borzasi, you heard him mention the scorecard he uses to close 100% of his prospects on sales calls. We didn’t have a lot of time to discuss what the scorecard includes or how he uses it, but Csaba agreed to share all of that with the members of The Copywriter Underground. That presentation happens later this week and will be available in the Underground for a limited time. If you’d like to learn how to close 100% of your prospects on sales calls—by the way, that’s not a guarantee, but you will see how Csaba does it—you need to be IN the copywriter underground, which you can do by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And Csaba’s presentation isn’t the only upcoming exclusive we’ll be adding in the underground. We’ll have more to tell you about in the coming weeks. thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Now to our interview with Jo… Kira Hug: All right, I’m gonna kick this off. You know, we’re kicking off 2024, feeling mostly good so far, right? But when we look back at 2023, it’s hard to not avoid the mammoth changes that took place in the writing space and the impact on the writers that we all know, and how difficult it was for many writers. Not all writers, some writers had great years, but for many, they struggled. And so, I would love to hear from you and your perspective on just like what are these shifts that you saw and what is working today that we should pay attention to in the writers that are more successful? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. Rob Marsh: That’ll only take an hour to answer. Kira Hug: I can’t ask that in the last 10 minutes. Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll just let you go for an hour. We’ll end the episode and we’ll just have you come back another time for everybody else’s questions. Kira Hug: We have you for the next four hours, right? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to hear what y’all have to say about this too. I can say my take. I know 2023 started off super scary for everybody, right? I mean, 2022, November, December was when people started flipping because of chat GPT. What was so funny, wasn’t it funny? I was watching, I think it was John Oliver, his HBO show he does once a Sunday, whatever it’s called. And they were talking about AI. And they were cutting to clips of this expert on AI who was saying what was going to change. And he’s like, so this will impact copywriters and lawyers. And the second he said it, I was like, OK, wait. Suddenly, people know what copywriting is? For all of these years, no one’s had a clue what we do. And suddenly, it’s all like, everybody knows what we do. And this is going to be replaced. So I was annoyed by that. But I think that kind of set the tone, like hearing those sorts of things set the tone for a lot of people. And I get it. It was like, It was a get on board, you know, befriend the bear before it eats you and then be a slave to the bear, which is scary and no one wants to do that. Writers

A lot of copywriters talk about building a “real” business, that is a business that isn’t solely built on writing copy for clients. In the 382nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Joel Klettke who used his writing and sales expertise, developed as a copywriter, to build a team and service business bigger than what he might have built on his own. And he shared what he’s learned from the experience. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Over the past 7 years of publishing this podcast, it’s pretty rare that we bring guests back for a second visit. And the guests that have been back three times? I could be wrong but by my count, that’s only happened twice. Today’s episode makes it three. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of Case Study Buddy, Joel Klettke to catch up on what he’s been doing for the past couple of years. Joel has gone from being a top performing, in-demand copywriter to the founder of a million dollar business. And in our discussion, he shared some of the lessons he learned along the way. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the membership for copywriters and content writers… where you can find the training, coaching, copy reviews, and community you need to build a successful copywriting business. To learn more visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now let’s jump into our interview with Joel… Kira Hug: All right, so Joel, I’m not going to ask you how you ended up as a copywriter because we already covered that in episode, Rob, which episode? I know you know. Rob Marsh: Episode 21 is the first time and maybe like 107, I think, is the second time. It’s been a while though. It’s been a while since we chatted on the podcast. Joel Klettke: Yeah. I like these, it’s almost like a snapshot in time, like journal entry to go back and listen to myself on somebody’s life. Rob Marsh: How much better life was back in episode 107? Kira Hug: Well, going back to 21, I think that was the one I was listening to and reading the transcript from. That’s when you were, correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s when you were just starting case study, buddy, right? That was the origin of it when you were getting into case studies. Or was that 107? Rob Marsh: I think it was even before that. Kira Hug: Yeah, it was before that. We were introducing it. You had that business running at that time. Joel Klettke: Yeah, like technically Case Study Buddy is almost eight years old. It was off the side of our desks initially. And then right before the pandemic, we kind of pivoted to focus full-time on that. So that became kind of a big transition point. And then it’s continued to be the full-time focus since then. So we’ve only really been two years, maybe three now, full-time pushing this thing. Kira Hug: Okay, well, let’s go back then to before pandemic when you went all in and just curious, like what, what triggered that decision for you and your business partner to go all in on this business? Joel Klettke: I think there are a whole bunch of different factors. I think, you know, at the time, the grass is always greener in life in general, you know, like you always want to be doing that new thing. The headspace I was in at that moment was I had done the freelance thing and I’d done it well, graduated to basically being in a position of consulting for some pretty great brands, some really great projects. You get to the point that you are now making what your heroes made. I remember listening to Joanna Wiebe talk about charging $10,000 for a landing page and thinking, that’s so outlandish. And then I got there. And at that point, I was kind of hitting the ceiling. I felt like I was hitting the ceiling of my potential. I just wanted to keep growing. I wanted to change. I was finding when I was working on projects, I was going through this weird anxiety almost of like, now that I’m on this level, I have to keep delivering at this level. I have to keep being this person in this way. I still had a lot of work. It wasn’t like I was forced into a pivot, but it was kind of like, in the meantime, we have this other thing going on off the side of our desks that is growing under its own steam. It’s kind of gone from you know, $17,000 in its first year, very, very part time to, you know, then maybe like 38. And then you had this big jump up to 80. And then all of a sudden, you’re 200. And then you’re 800. And now you’re approaching a million. And meanwhile, you haven’t really

Want to make your copy better? More persuasive? More conversion-oriented? The way to do it may be understanding the psychology of your reader. In the 381st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Csaba Borzasi who explained how he uses psychology to make his copy better. And maybe more importantly, Csaba also explained how he uses a scorecard during his prospecting calls that helps him close almost 100% of his prospects. This is definitely one you’ll want to stick around for. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When many of us start out as copywriters, we’re interested in the words. How do we organize them so that they sound right or so that they sound better? Which words should we use to communicate this benefit or this feature? Or which phrase will make the best call to action? But after a while, we tend to become less interested in the exact words, although they are still important, and we still do get a lot of joy out of writing them. And we become more interested in the psychology behind the words. We start asking questions like, which emotions should my reader be feeling as they read this? What beliefs do I need to shift? What do they need to know or think or feel in order to take the next step? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club, and on Today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed Csaba Borzasi, a copywriter with extensive training in applied psychology and plenty of experience helping shift beliefs and with writing emotional copy. Csaba shared how psychology applies to what we write every day. He also shared his process for diagnosing his client’s business problems that virtually guarantees that they’re going to ask for his help on a project. And by the way, this single bit of advice that he gives, this insight could be worth thousands of dollars in new work for you in the coming year. So you’re definitely going to want to make a note of it. Finally, we talked about why his welcome sequence is nine months long. There’s some good stuff in this episode, so get out your notepad and your pen because you are going to want to take some notes. Now, this is when I normally jump in to tell you all about The Copywriter Underground, all the copywriting business trainings that are in there, the monthly coaching calls, the weekly copy critiques, the community. If you’ve been listening to the podcast for very long, you’ve heard me mention all of those things over and over, and yet you still haven’t jumped in. Don’t wait any longer. If you’ve got plans to grow your business in 2024, visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and find out more about this vibrant community of copywriters who are working hard to do the same thing that you want to do. And now let’s go to our interview with Csaba. Kira Hug: All right. So Csaba, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, so great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I was basically born and raised in in the Transylvania region of Romania. So but I’m not a vampire, I promise. But as an ethnic Hungarian, actually. So it was a totally different culture compared to what you might consider conducive to becoming a copywriter, especially in English, especially on the U.S. market. Right. So basically, I like I always liked to read. I was always a little kind of like a black sheep in my family because they don’t even speak English, unfortunately. And they were always telling me, like, why are you learning English? Like, where are you going to use English? And I was like, no, no, no. But I can get better information this way. So I always loved getting information. And then during my studies, I studied psychology, first business, then psychology. And then I landed a job at IBM, which was like the typical corporate job that everybody complains about. So I kind of, I think I’ve been there for more than a year, one and a half years or something. And then I felt like this isn’t for me. Then I became a direct salesperson for a wealth management company, a supposedly prestigious wealth management company, but turned out it was kind of a scam. Well, not necessarily a scam, but they were still ripping people off with stuff and there was lots of dodgy things going on. So then I had a friend who was already doing copywriting, on Upwork and he said like, Csaba, you like psychology and I know that you like to read a lot, you like communication and persuasion and just studying it, so I think this could be a natural fit for you because you could combine marketing and business and psychology and I was like, but aren’t copywriters supposed to like do legal stuff, you k

Is writing for non-profit organizations any different from writing for other businesses or clients? It turns out, the answer is “yes”. Because most of the time your “customer” won’t receive a product or service when they “buy”. And that means you need to be very good at providing the experiences and stories they want in the copy you write. Our guest for the 380th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Shterna Lazaroff and she’s got a lot to say on the topic, so stay tune Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’re looking for a niche with lots of clients and plenty of money to spend, you could do a lot worse than writing for the nonprofit sector. As of a couple of years ago, there were more than 1.49 million charitable organizations in the United States alone and hundreds of thousands more in other countries. And spending at nonprofits accounts for more than $2.46 trillion. And that, again, is just in the United States. If you add in all of the other countries in the world, it’s double or triple that. And some portion of that is paid to copywriters. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kara Hug, and I interviewed Shterna Lazaroff, who has spent a good part of her career focused on fundraising and helping nonprofits succeed. While many of the principles of good copywriting apply to writing for charity, Shterna tells us that there are a few differences, so you may want to stick around to hear what they are and perhaps use that knowledge to land a client in the nonprofit world for yourself. Now, this is where I usually break in and talk a bit about the Copywriter Underground. I could do that again. I could tell you about the training. I could tell you about the community. I could tell you about the copy critiques, the copy coaching that happens there every month. You’ve heard me talk about all of that stuff before. So my real question for you is what are you waiting for? What is keeping you from going to thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and at least checking out all the resources that are listed there? There’s a ton of information there about what it includes and what being a member will get you. And just, you know, as a selfish point, being a member is a great way to support this podcast and all the other resources that we provide for copywriters and content writers. So that URL again to visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU, check it out. And if it’s a fit for you, join, join the more than 200 other copywriters in there who are working hard to build a successful business. Now let’s jump into our interview with Sterna Lazaroff. Kira Hug: All right, let’s kick off as we do with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Shterna Lazaroff: So every job I’ve ever had has always had what to do with writing. I was always like the family writer, the one doing every time someone in the family needed something. So when I first was looking for my first job, just ended up was actually the editor of my high school magazine was working at like a small local kids magazine and I had worked with her in high school. She reached out, she’s like, Hey, do you want a job editing for me? So that was my first, first job ever. And I had always wanted to be a writer. It was always like when I was younger and you asked me what I wanted to do, I always said I wanted to be a writer. But there was this conception that like everyone used to tell me like writers don’t make money and it’s not really sustainable income and all that. And then When I left this magazine after two years, I had this period of like, I don’t know what to do next. And I was still very young. And I remember having this realization. I was like, wait, I just spent two years hiring writers. Why can’t I be one of the writers that people are hiring? I had until then thought that the pretty much the only way to use like my writing skills was on the editorial side because writers don’t make money and I was like I’m paying them money so I’ll be the one who’s getting paid and so I started writing um I started writing actually the first few things I started with were articles for two of the biggest Jewish magazines that are distributed globally like hundreds of thousands of families read them every week. And I basically started writing for those and eventually discovered copywriting. I had started working part-time in a nonprofit. And as I was researching all the writing work I was doing for them, they were just like, we need an in-house writer. And I was like, sure, I could write. And I like nonprofits. I actually discovered that what I was doing was this thi

Brainstorming and creativity are often forgotten in the world of online marketing. We often jump straight into what will convert at the expense of the creative tools used by copywriters working in Ad Agencies around the world. In the 379th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with freelance advertising copywriter Shlomo Genchin about his processes for coming up with creative concepts that attract attention and engage readers and passers-by. Shlomo shared some great tips for finding better, bigger ideas for the work we do. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Have you noticed that the work most copywriters do doesn’t exactly fall under the description of creative? Yeah, we write about ideas, hopefully big ideas, but the work of most copywriters is pretty common. It’s like all of the other copy in their industry. So here’s a test, choose a niche, doesn’t matter which one, go to Google, find 10 companies in that niche and open up their websites. Then read the headlines. You can actually do this for the niche that you work in. Every time I do this, I’m amazed that about eight out of the 10 make pretty much the same promise in their headlines. Now, usually it’s something like save time, save money. They word it a little bit differently, but it’s basically the same. And then the other two headlines are usually so bland that they’re not really making any promise at all. They might be trying to describe what they do, but usually that even falls flat. And it’s not just websites. With a few exceptions, ads look and feel the same. Even most content blurs into a vast mass of content schlock. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed creative copywriter Shlomo Genshin. Shlomo writes a lot about his creative process, how he comes up with ideas, and how to think more expansively when developing things like headlines, hooks, and more. It’s really the answer to this everybody looks the same problem. It’s something that copywriters and content writers around the world definitely need to be doing more of. So we think you’re going to like this episode. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That’s the membership for copywriters and content writers that includes not just training, literally more than a hundred hours of training on different topics, but actual feedback on your copy, as well as monthly coaching calls from mentors you can trust, where you can get the help that you need to grow your business. I’m not going to share all of the details here. You can find out more at thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu. That’s TCU for The Copywriter Underground, where you can join and immediately expand your network of amazing copywriters who are all working to grow and build something bigger together this year. Okay, let’s go to our interview with Shlomo. Shlomo Genchin: So I started just like a lot of people, I just started looking for ways to maybe to get rich online. You know, how to start a business, how to make money online. And I came across all those regular scammers that you would see. They would tell you, get rich in 10 days. And I bought one of those courses. And nothing came out of it, of course, because it was kind of scammy and not really possible to apply… to kind of implement all of that. But one thing I learned there was copywriting. Like the magic of copywriting, you can basically persuade any person to buy anything. And it’s so easy. You just need some words. And it’s so simple. And I was like, that sounds interesting. I could sell anything in the world, do affiliate marketing, and whatnot. And then I just went to Google and looked up the best copywriting school in the world. And what came up was Miami Ad School in Berlin. So that’s it. And fast forward, I created a little portfolio, started working for some clients just to get some experience. And I got in. I flew to Berlin and I moved there and started studying copywriting. And then I saw that it was so different from what I’ve learned before, because it wasn’t just about writing hooks, or catchy headlines, or anything like that. It was really about creating concepts, and ideas, and doing PR, and all the things that ad agencies today do. First of all, more interesting and second they’re kind of different because they’re not just about like persuading people making them buy things because you trick them into this or you were like so clever and all that. But because the work is actually interesting and entertaining and like that’s kind of my approach to conte

How do you get stuff done? What can you do to make sure your goals for the new year don’t fall by the wayside. In the 378th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about their strategies for accomplishing goals and resolutions and what they plan on getting done in the coming year. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. We mentioned a lot of books on this show: The Opposable Mind by Roger Martin The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham A Million Miles in a Thousand Years by Donald Miller Who Do We Choose to Be by Meg Wheatley Breaking Together by Gem Bendell This One Wild and Precious Life by Sarah Wilson Quiet by Susan Cain Bittersweet by Susan Cain 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: We’re a couple of weeks into the new year, and if you’re like the average resolution setter, tomorrow is the day you quit. 17 days is the average length of time that goal setters, resolution setters, whoever, stick to their goals. And maybe you’ve already quit, given up on what you expected to get done this month or this year, or maybe you’re still going strong. Either way, on today’s episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, Kira and I are talking about what we do to make sure we get stuff done. and some of the goal setting fallacies that might keep you from accomplishing everything that you set out to do. Stick around to hear what we shared. But before we get into all of that, this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters, content writers, and other marketers out there. given the value that you get for the very low price that you pay. There’s a monthly group coaching call where Kira and I help you get answers to your business questions, your copywriting questions, whatever. We do a weekly copy critique where we take a look at what you’ve written and give you advice and insights and things that you might want to do a little bit differently. There are regular training sessions on copy techniques, business practices, everything designed to help you get better. And we even talk about AI and tools and things that you can do in order to stay on top of everything you’re doing with AI. And that’s on top of the massive library of training and templates that are there. The community is amazing. Lots of copywriters ready to help you with answers to any questions you have, even sometimes sharing leads. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/TCU. All right, Kira, we’re here just you and me again. and just chatting. It’s the new year. I think I’ve got some goals of things I want to do. You’ve got some goals of things that you want to do in the coming year. You must have some. I know you’re very goal oriented, but before we do all, before we talk about the new year, before we talk about, you know, what things we’re thinking and maybe share some ideas that might help people get more done. If they’re thinking about their goals, if they actually made resolutions, if they have a word of the year, any of that stuff. Let’s just do a couple of warm-up questions. I want to find out a couple more things about you. Even though we’ve been working together for six or seven years, it’s hard to believe there are still things I don’t know. Kira Hug: Yeah, I know. I know. I guess we can always dive deeper in our relationship. Rob Marsh: Here we go. So first question, when’s the last time you were really, really scared? Kira Hug: I mean, how scared are we talking? Rob Marsh: That’s a good question because as I was thinking about this, the only time I am really terrified is in my dreams. I’m not sure that there’s anything that terrifies me. that much in real life. But from my answer, I was thinking, okay, if I take away dreams, where the bad guys are always trying to kill me or chasing me or do whatever. But when we were in New Orleans last year for our retreat with the think tank, there was a tornado warning and the tornado sirens went off at the hotel I was at, or it wasn’t even a hotel. That was before I arrived. Yeah, I think it was before you got there. And I’ve been in one tornado before. I live in Salt Lake, so there’s not a lot of tornadoes that come through here. The last tornado in Salt Lake City, I think, was in 1998, so literally 25 years ago. So hearing the sirens, the trees like banging against the windows and the place that I was staying, you know, looking around, it was a wooden structure, it wasn’t like, you know, there was a brick wall or anything. And the tornado actually did touch down about a mile away from where I was staying. So I’m not sure that I was terrified. But it’s one of

How do you stand out in a world where more than a million people are calling themselves copywriters or content writers? You’ve heard all the “expected” ways to do it: find a niche, develop a personal brand, create a unique framework or unique mechanism. Those are all great ideas, but in this the 377th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and membership strategist Robert Skrob who suggests a very different—and quite possibly better—approach to solving this problem. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy Retention Point by Robert Skrob The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Last time I checked there were nearly a million people on LinkedIn calling themselves copywriters. And almost another million with the title content writer. So how do you complete with two million copywriters? Many of whom are better than you? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter and membership strategist Robert Skrob. Robert says that instead of figuring out how to outcompete everyone else, suggests carving out your own niche so you DON’T compete with anyone else. Creating a space where you’re the only on doing what you do. He also shared how he created a stead flow of clients to his business using a strategy we’ve never seen used by anyone else. It has nothing to do with LinkedIn or pitching or social media or just about anything else you’ve heard the so called experts say you have to do. Robert only works with high-end clients paying him at least $20,000 a month. He told us his “fishing for sailfish” secret for finding them. You’re going to want to hear what he has to say. Before we get to the interview, I need to take a minute to tell you about the Copywriter Accelerator. But before you tune me out and think, I’ve heard about this before, we’re trying something a little different. It’s called The Copywriter Accelerator Fast Track… rather than taking 5 months to go through the program, you’ll go through the business-changing or business-creating program (depending on where you are in your business)you’ll go through the program in 30 days or less. And because this is the fast track version, it’s the lowest price we’ve ever offered for The Copywriter Accelerator before. You owe it to yourself to find out more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Robert Skrob. Robert Skrob: It’s my honor to be here. It took, I guess I’m 148 on the list of the most interesting copywriters to talk to. Rob Marsh: You’re way above that. But, we just haven’t been able to get with you. You’re so busy. Kira Hug: That’s true. Rob Marsh: With a such a great business. It’s amazing to have you here though. Thank you so much for being here. Robert Skrob: I’m honored. I don’t hang out at copywriting events or speak at those things, but I certainly see copywriters struggle and become very frustrated. So hopefully, we can share some ideas that can help simplify this whole business for everybody. Kira Hug: Sounds great. Well, let’s start with your story first. How did you end up as a copywriter? Robert Skrob: Actually, back in 1993, I was an accountant at a public accounting firm and hated it. I was there three months and left, took a job as a bookkeeper for a company that did consulting with non-profit associations, and I ended up buying that company about five years later. So, I had 20 associations that I was responsible for doing membership marketing, event marketing, sponsorship sales, and I needed to know how to get this stuff sold. I ran across Dan Kennedy about ’96 and found his how to write a sales letter book. I can remember sitting at my living room coffee table going through that book chapter by chapter writing my first sales letter ever and editing it and getting it out. So, for a number of a years, for the clients that we were working with, I was writing offers for membership sales, selling sponsorships, selling exhibits, and even in some political campaigns. So, it gave me a very quick practice in how to write because I was writing to movers to get them to join. I was writing to motorcycle dealers, to different types of doctors, dermatologists, OB-GYNs, pain medicine doctors, anesthesiologists, and then occupational therapists and geologists, all different types of people. So, it helped me really understand. They’d say you’ve got to learn what the insider language is of the niche and learn what they’re thinking. That experience really helped me learn that. I started doing some freelance copywriting. The date may be wrong, but I think ’03, ’04. Then, I also started sharing what I was doing with Dan back then, and I joined his coaching group and started participating. He said, ‘You know what, Robert? You ought to start sharing wh

Too many of us get caught up in the doing of our business instead of thinking about our business. So for this 376th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we are flashing back to another one of our best interviews… this one from business strategist Jereshia Hawk who went deep on selling to high ticket clients as well as what it takes to truly grow your business. She calls it super thinking. We call it CEO time. Whatever you call it, you definitely want to hear what Jereshia has to say about it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Things we mentioned to check out: The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Transcript: Rob Marsh: Welcome to the New Year. Whether you’re back at your desk today or still taking a few days to ramp back up for 2024, this interview is just what you need… or at least, it is just what I needed to hear to kick off the new year. It is the perfect compliment to last week’s throwback episode with Seth Godin. Because Jereshia is another expert that I love to learn from. When we interviewed her a little over three years ago, she shared a ton of great information about selling to clients with money… what is often referred to as high-ticket sales. And that’s what we focused the title and promotion of that interview on. But we also covered the idea of super-thinking. That is the idea that we need to be creating space for coming up with new ideas and insights and not just reacting to what’s going on. And quite honestly, a lot of us spent the past year reacting to economic issues, artificial intelligence and a lot of other stuff that impacted the way we work. So I think you’re going to like the throwback interview with business coach Jereshia Hawk. Before we get to that, if you want this year to be better than last year, better clients, better projects, and better opportunities, you absolutely need to visit thecopywriterunderground.com and check out the resources waiting for you there. That’s thecopywriterunderground.com. Now let’s get to our interview with Jereshia… Kira Hug: All right, Jereshia, welcome. We want to kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a high ticket sales coach? Jereshia Hawk: Well, I kind of stumbled my way here. I was an engineer by trade before even knowing this whole online world existed. And I started doing some of my videos, started getting into coaching, just people asking me to give advice or insight on how I was able to navigate my corporate career and how I was able to position myself for upward mobility opportunities in a nontraditional way or in a way that just wasn’t the same beat and path of how you’re supposed to excel in corporate. And one thing I started recognizing during my coaching calls at the very, very beginning, when I was charging $60 for a month of coaching, less than what you would pay for a fitness class, and the biggest thing that I noticed was the transferrable skills that I had acquired in corporate America. I was a lead engineer of a $400 million pipeline project, I was responsible for managing our money on a day-to-day basis, making decisions based off of input and output, and so I understood how money moved from a corporates perspective, but then I also understood kind of a gap that I noticed in the industry, or that I noticed just from people that I was discussing on, how do you effectively articulate your value in a way that whoever is in the other position, the buying decision or the position of authority to make a decision, how do you articulate your value in a way where they get it and that it also correlates to how it impacts the bottom line or impacts the thing that’s most important to them, and how do you position yourself to be able to do that repeatedly. And once I started to recognize that those three things were really my sweet spot and as I started growing in the coaching business, that’s where high ticket sales was my natural zone of genius. Because I think when you are selling offers that are $2,000 to $20,000, it’s usually the range most of my clients are in, there’s just a different way that you have to articulate your value than if you’re selling something for $500. There’s a different way that you have to position yourself in order to attract people to know just know, like and trust you, but to believe you, respect you and align with you from a value base perspective, to want to be able to invest with you at a higher level. So it was definitely a work in progress. It took about two years to feel confident in myself to be able to kind of own that as an identity in this online world before I really dove head in. It’s really recognizing these transferrable skills and also identifying where is the gap that I see in the industry that we’re in and where can I really be adding value from a unique perspective. Rob Marsh: So before we jump in to all of the aspects of high ticket sales, I want to ask about your engineering

For the 375th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we brought back Seth Godin. But maybe not quite the way you think. We talked to Seth more than five years ago about creating art, freelancing, and the story you create for yourself. It’s such a great discussion, but because it happened so long ago, not very many listeners find it. So for our very first throwback episode, we’ve pulled this great interview out of the vault and are sharing it again… with a few new thoughts at the end. Even if you heard this interview the first time we ran it, it’s worth another listen. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: This is Marketing by Seth Godin The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Accelerator Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: A little over 5 years ago, as we were approaching our 100th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and I were trying to think of who would be an amazing guest for the 100th episode of the show. There are some amazing—even famous—copywriters who came to mind. It’s too bad David Ogilvy wasn’t alive. He definitely would have made the cut. But this show is about more than copywriting. It’s about marketing and showing up and making a difference in the world. And when we added those considerations to the list, one obvious choice stood out. Seth Godin. You know Seth. He’s been a vocal advocate for making art or as Steve Jobs once said, making a dent in the universe. Much of Seth’s career, certainly for the last decade, has been about encouraging people to make their art. So I reached out to Seth and asked him if he would be our 100th guest. And I think it was about 20 minutes later, I got a reply back. I still have it, in fact, let me just read what he said… he wrote… I can happily do this, but my publisher asked me to not have any new podcast interviews until November. Can we record it soon, but have it come out then? That timing meant that Seth wouldn’t be our 100th guest, but we weren’t about to say no. And in fact, I think the timing actually worked in our favor. As you can imagine, Seth appeared on many podcasts around the same time ours went live—all to promote his new book. But because we recorded 5 months earlier, we didn’t have the book, so our interview was very different from all the others that went live at the same time. It’s been 5 years since we recorded this interview with Seth, but I have to tell you I go back and listen to it more than any other episode. Seth’s advice on making art, owning the work we do, doing the difficult emotional work, building spec projects, and what happens when we don’t do those things is even more important today than if was when we recorded this interview more than 5 years ago. Now… this is where I would usually mention the copywriter underground. I’m not going to do that today because we wanted to give you something as a thank you for being a regular listener to the show. Just after the new year, we launch the copywriter accelerator. It’s not a course. It’s an 8 part business building program designed to help you build a six-figure business that works for you. I’m not going to tell you all the things it includes here. You can find that out at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. But I will share an exclusive code only available to you as a podcast listener. This is the only place we’re sharing it. If you go to the copywriter accelerator.com and enter the code: POD200, you’ll save $200 off the price of the program. That’s POD200 at the copywriter accelerator .com. And you can find far more details about what the program includes there. Check it out. And if it’s a fit, join with the code: POD200. Okay, now we hope you enjoy this incredible interview with Seth Godin. Kira Hug: Seth, welcome. Rob Marsh: Hey, Seth. Seth Godin: Thanks. Great to talk to you guys. Kira Hug: We’re very excited and honored that you’re a part of our show. Before we start recording, we just shared with you that you’ve been such a big influence in our careers and also in creating The Copywriter Club. So my palms are sweaty and I am thrilled that you’re here. Seth Godin: All right. Well, I’ll do my best. That’s a pretty high expectation, but we’ll see what happens. Rob Marsh: You’re going to deliver. We feel good about this, so. Kira Hug: So, to kick this off, you talk about becoming a category of one on your own podcast, and you mentioned doing quirky work. That really stood out to me. What does that mean and how can freelancers do that? Seth Godin: Well, there’s two kinds of freelancers. There are freelancers who seek to have a job without a boss, that’s most freelancers. And then there’s freelancers who actually make a living, make an impact, bend the curve. It’s fun to talk about being the second kind, but there’s a cost to it. I think distinguishing between the two is really important. More than ever because there are laptops, because there’s an internet. More than ever people feel like they can make a

Copywriter and Publisher of Freelancer magazine, Sophie Cross, is the guest for the 374th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob asked Sophie why she decided to publish a print magazine in a time when many printed magazines seem to be struggling to find readers and advertisers. She shared what it takes to accomplish such a Herculean task each quarter. One of our big take aways from this discussion is that you may need to do something BIG to stand out in today’s competitive world. Publishing a magazine is that kind of big idea that stands out. And this episode may give you a few ideas that you can use to stand out in your own niche or industry. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Important links to check out: Freelancer Magazine The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Want to build your authority? Then you need to be sharing your ideas, insights and content in places where your audience will find you. Linkedin. Instagram. Medium. Twitter. That’s good advice and it has helped hundreds of copywriters rise above the crowd and get noticed by the clients they serve. But if you really want to stand out… the way to do it is by showing up in ways that no one else has thought of before. Instead of posting on someone else’s platform, why not create your own? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and magazine publisher Sophie Cross. Sophie is the publisher of Freelancer magazine, a printed quarterly magazine about the ins and outs of working on your own. As you’ll hear her explain, Sophie wanted to create a platform to help her get noticed. So she started her magazine and we wanted to understand what it takes to publish and mail a 100-page magazine 4 times a year. Turns out it’s a lot of work. We also talked about freelancing in the hospitality industry, creating courses and other assets, and Sophie’s advice for anyone working as a freelancer today. Stick around because this one is pretty good. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Sophie. Kira Hug: All right, Sophie, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as the editor of Freelancer magazine? Sophie Cross: I ended up with the editor because I made the magazine and made myself the editor. Rob Marsh: That is a very good way to start. Yeah. Sophie Cross: I I was already making a magazine, had a little bit of experience in my backgrounds in hospitality marketing before. Yeah. Well, when I went freelance and went freelance, I had the experience making hotel brochures and collateral and things like that. You can only look back at the stepping stones, can’t you can’t sort of see where they’re taking you. I sort of didn’t think much of it at the time, but actually now realizing that I had this real passion for printed collateral and things like that, I then started making a magazine for quite a big hotel group in London. And that got pulled at the beginning of the pandemic. So I had a little bit of experience, but not from anything to do with journalism or anything like that. And yeah, I started making courses for freelancers, marketing courses when the pandemic started. And I was thinking about how to create content for freelancers that would put me at the forefront and would show me as an expert in freelancing and marketing. And I was thinking about doing a podcast or a blog. And yeah, I’m definitely more writing than speaking. I already had a newsletter blog that felt a bit past it. But then I went even more past it and went back to I thought, I know how I’ll get people’s attention. I’ll post it through the boxes. And yeah, I just suddenly had the thought that there wasn’t already a magazine like it for the community. I was part of quite a lot of freelance communities online. So I knew I woul

We’re talking all about online business myths and what to do when you’re struggling in your business on the 373rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This episode is a Kira and Rob only show—no guest. And they delve into the realities of running a business today. The path is seldom up and to the right (always growing) and often so challenging, you’re tempted to get a “real” job or at least something part-time until client work gets steadier. We cover a lot of ground in this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Almost no one expects to launch a business and have everything go easily from the beginning, but after a few years, well by then, things should be getting easier, right? Well, not always, and not exactly. I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of the Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I talk about a couple of business myths. Like the idea that your progress should always be up and to the right. That is that things always get easier and more profitable year after year. Or the idea that replacing clients with products and passive income is easy. or the all-too-common belief that taking a job in-house is a failure. I also talked a little bit about how to prepare for a business downturn. If you struggle to find clients or your business hasn’t been growing as quickly as you hoped, you may want to stay around and listen to the end of this episode. But first, this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard me talk about this for the past few weeks. It truly is the best membership for copywriters, content writers, marketers of all kinds. And let me just give you an idea of what you get for what you pay every single month. First, there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice about overcoming any business or client or writing challenge that you have. When we do one-on-one coaching, we charge several hundred dollars an hour for that. it’s included in your membership. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques. Sometimes that’s from Kira and myself. Sometimes that’s an expert that we bring in to talk about something they’re doing interesting in their business. All of those are designed to help you get better at this thing that we do. We’ve been talking about new AI tools and ways to use AI in the underground. even new tools, techniques, prompts that you can use to have AI help you get more done quicker. And on top of that, there’s this massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters who are ready to help you with almost anything, including sharing leads from time to time. What an amazing value that is. To find out more of what it includes, go to thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu. And with that, let’s get to our discussion for a few suggestions about how to prepare for the inevitable downturns and hard times in your business. All right, Kira, just you and me again today. And we’re going to talk about a couple of things. But before we jump into talking about recessions and making our businesses stronger and all of that stuff, I put together a couple of getting to know you questions that are maybe a little bit different. Let’s start easy. Mountain or beach vacation? Kira Hug: I feel like we’ve covered that one on the pod already. And I feel like last time you asked me, I was like, I don’t, I don’t know. I can’t choose between mountain or beach. Because the question stresses me out. So I remember it, but I mean, I would probably lean towards beach if I had to choose. I just, I like both. It’s hard for me to choose. Rob Marsh: Why does it stress you out? Kira Hug: Because I don’t like choosing. This is like anytime anyone asks me like, Oh, what’s your favorite song? What’s your favorite movie? What’s your favorite memory? How are we supposed to choose when we want to experience everything in life? So anyway, this is why I like to interview people and not be interviewed. That’s why. But what are you like? Mountain or beach? Which one would you prefer? Rob Marsh: I live so close to the mountains and so far away from the beach that I feel like vacation is getting away from what I have or what I know and getting to the thing that I don’t have. So, you know, I only see the ocean a couple times a year if I’m lucky. And so I’ll take a beach vacation any day. Even a mountain lake beach is a good vacation. I’m like you, I love mountains and you know, somebody said, Hey, yeah, we’ve got a couple of weeks for you in a cabin in Mon

Financial Copywriter Sean MacIntyre is our guest for the 372nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We had the opportunity to hang out with Sean at the Copy Legends Lockdown Event and were intrigued by what he had to say about A.I., positioning yourself as an expert authority, and how to get better at copywriting. There’s some great advice here that Sean shares from his mentors as well as direction on how to read a sales page so you learn from it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Small Group Coaching The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: You’ve heard the good and bad about the future of copywriting and content writing. AI is going to take all of our jobs. Or conversely, it’s the greatest opportunity ever to come along… at least for the copywriters ready to take advantage of the new technology. And then there’s the economy, which for many has felt like a recession—in spite of some positive broader economic markers… regardless the ups and downs of the business cycle means there’s a recession coming sometime in the future… whether that’s next year or five years from now. So how are you planning for this stuff? What are you doing to add new skills? And should you get a part time job to hold you over while you figure this all out? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed financial copywriter Sean MacIntyre. We covered a lot of ground in this episode… we talked about AI and why it may not be the risk some people say it is AND what’s really happening as these technologies develop. We talked about how to protect yourself from a recession and the themes your copy should address to connect with readers in stressful economic times. We also talked about having ideas, how to read a promotion so you learn from it and become a better copywriter, and a lot more. You’ll definitely want to stick around for this episode. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Sean. Kira Hug: All right, Sean, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Sean MacIntyre: Oh, well, I’ve been writing for money since about 2001. Thanks, mom. And so yeah, I did that to sort of fund my lifestyle at the time. Spent a few years homeless. And so I was actually going to school and writing and working a few jobs on the side there. Did that got one master’s degree, then got another master’s degree, ended up teaching for about seven years in there somewhere. Then around 2015 while I was actually, helping ghost writing books for business professors, I got a job at a little place called Palm Beach Research Group, which is now called Legacy Research Group in the Agora and MarketWise family of companies. And I got hired as a proofreader. And within three months, I was promoted to an assistant managing editor. Three months after that, I was promoted to a managing editor and actually bylining reports. And then a few months after that, Mark Ford asked me to be the head of the division, like his division of the company. And that’s how I met Mark Ford (who is) Michael Masterson. We broke off that company and hooked it up in 2017 with Agora Financial. I went up to Baltimore, met Joe Schrieffer, met everybody in that space. We hit it off extraordinarily well. We launched a business there. And so I studied under David Deutsch. I studied under Addison Wiggin. I studied under Joe Schrieffer. And so I was getting feedback and mentorship from all of them, including Mark Ford on my first long form direct response package. And then we launched November. And two weeks after we launched, Mark Ford, who we built the business around, said, I’m going to retire again for like his seventh time. And I was like, oh, well, that was a lot of work and a lot of moving around. Because at the tim

Femtech Copywriter Lanae Carmichael is our guest for the 371st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, and Kira and Rob asked her about finding her niche and framework (which Kira got a little too much pleasure from making Rob name), user testing copy before you present it to the client, and how she landed 50% of the work she did this year from other copywriters. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. A few links related to this show that you should definitely click: Lanae’s Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: What’s your best source of leads? Where do the majority of your clients come from? As you look back on the past year, it’s a question worth thinking about. Do clients easily find you based on your social media presence or your LinkedIn profile? Do you seek out the people and brands you want to work with and pitch them on a project? Or maybe you benefit from referrals from past clients and other people who know you. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Lanae Carmichael. Near the end of our interview Lanae said something that surprised us. She said that more than half of her clients this year came from other copywriters. This isn’t a new idea. We’ve talked about it before on the podcast. But 50% is a big number. Lanae shared what she did to put herself in position to get those referrals and it’s something any copywriter can do. And we talked about a lot more than that. You’ll want to keep listening to this episode. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Lanae. Kira Hug: Let’s kick off, Lanae, with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Lanae Carmichael: All right, so I started out as a marketing consultant at a small TV tech firm, or a marketing specialist. I don’t remember what my title was there. But I was very junior on the team, and I was primarily doing their internal communications. But slowly over time, I started working with the COO, and we were doing executive video scripts, and I was doing some change management communications as the small TV tech firm got bought out by a new company. After three or four years of working with that marketing team, I got pivoted into the product marketing side, and that’s where I discovered branding and positioning and messaging, and I loved it. Shortly after that, I had my first baby, and I knew I didn’t really want the corporate lifestyle. I had friends that were in the copywriting industry. I didn’t really know what the word meant, but I was already doing it. as is the story that so many copywriters have. But I was living in the Bay Area at the time, and there were startups abundant all around. And so I was on Angel’s list, and I just started pitching. And pretty quickly, within two weeks, I had landed a year-long contract doing email marketing. And I didn’t realize at the time how lucky it was that I kind of just fell into that great client, really good pay, year-long contract. But it worked out really well, and I had a knack for it. I took a bunch of copywriting courses to build up my knowledge while I approached the projects. And within four months, they had tripled their email open rates. And there was a new revenue stream coming in through that email marketing. So I worked myself out of a job. They hired someone else full time. And I moved on and started taking on other clients. And yeah, that’s kind of where it took off. Rob Marsh: It’s interesting, you got a great client right off the bat. So many people struggle with $25 blog posts and really have to figure out pricing. How did that affect you as then you went to find other clients? Did you go through that low price, terrible project struggle or was it smooth sailing? Lanae Carmichael: Yes, I think I lucked out finding that client bec

Copywriter Justin Goff is the guest for the 370th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. He typically works 3-4 hours a day on his business, so Kira and Rob asked about that and what he does to ensure work doesn’t creep into the rest of his day. Actually we talked about a lot more than that. To hear what Justin shared, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Most of us have a dream of reaching that level in our business where we call all the shots. We’ve got a little bit of money saved, so we’re not dependent on the feast and famine cycle. And we’ve created a business where we only work 3-4 hours a day… when we want. As I said, for most copywriters and content creators, this is still a dream. But there are more than a handful of copywriters who have achieved this. It is do-able. And given the rewards, it’s a goal worth pursuing. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and entrepreneur Justin Goff. Justin is one of those copywriters who has reached that place in his business where he calls the shots. So we brought him on the show to talk about that… what he does while he’s working, what he does while he’s not working, and how he keeps it all going. If you share the dream of working a few hours a day and really taking control of your time, you’ll want to stick around for this interview. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Justin. Kira Hug: Justin, in one of your emails, I think it was from June, maybe it was from June, you kicked off the email and you said that recently there was a thread in a certain Facebook group with people saying that you had quit copywriting or retired or that you had sold all your possessions and moved to Peru. And in this particular email, you wanted to clear the air. And so it was a really fun email where you talked a little bit about what you’re doing today in business and life. So maybe that’s a good place to start. Did you move to Peru or what are you doing now? Rob Marsh: Retirement looks good on you, Justin. Justin Goff: Yeah, that was funny. So I actually sent a Peru email on April Fool’s Day that I was going to move to Peru and be a shaman. So apparently some people did not catch the April Fool’s joke on that. Kira Hug: They didn’t know what day it was. Justin Goff: Yeah, even though it was very clearly April Fool’s. But yeah, so for the people listening that don’t know me, I used to run a copy coaching program called Copy Accelerator with Stefan Georgi. Uh, I ran that from 2019 to 2022. And then last summer, uh, Stefan and I parted ways. I sold my share of the company to him. Um, and I was kinda just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Um, luckily I I’ve, I’ve been through this before where I’d sold a company. Cause I previously sold a company in 2017, which was my supplement company. Um, and after that one, I actually took an entire year off, which was great. Um, also, surprisingly a lot harder than you would think. You would think not having to work would be really easy, but it took me probably a good two months to actually be okay with not working. I just felt like I just kept waking up every day at seven o’clock and get on the computer and I’m like, I know I’m supposed to be here. Rob Marsh: Sitting at your desk from eight to five, yeah, nothing to do. The culture is strong. Justin Goff: Yeah, it was, it was actually really eyeopening. Um, so this time around I had a better idea of kind of what to expect and I took kind of, I didn’t know what, what I was actually going to do, but I was like, I’m gonna take a couple months off. Uh, I may fully retire. I may set my retire, um, after about three or four months, I kind of got bored and realized more like a, just a scaled back version of what I was doing