Relentless Health Value

Stacey Richter interviews neurosurgeon Dr. Ahilan Sivaganesan (Dr. Siva) about replacing vague healthcare "value" claims with quantified outcomes and unit-level costs, introducing his Operative Value Index (OVI). They discuss how hospitals often lack true internal episode costs and how common quality metrics miss patient-reported outcomes and appropriateness across the full care journey. Using time-driven activity-based costing (TDABC) and condition- or procedure-specific patient-reported outcomes, OVI creates a common mathematical language to compare surgeons, practices, or health systems, risk-adjust for confounders, and support steering/tiering and direct contracting for self-funded employers. Siva describes transparency via bubble charts that spur clinician behavior change without new incentives and argues this infrastructure is essential as bundled payments and risk-based arrangements expand, framing a "Yahoo vs Google" shift from fee-for-service volume to measurable value. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP505 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls= 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction to this episode. 00:38 The goal of this episode. 01:28 What the Operative Value Index (OVI) is. 02:04 A quick episode overview. 04:23 EP434 with Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA. 04:44 How this episode came about. 09:24 How Dr. Siva got involved in the research around outcomes and costs. 11:51 How the value equation doesn't add up to true quality. 14:12 What measuring quality across the entire care journey means. 15:00 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 15:08 EP295 with Rebecca Etz, PhD. 16:07 Why appropriateness is the foundation of quality. 19:08 Why practicing clinicians need to be thinking about the true costs of delivering care. 21:20 Time-driven activity-based costing (TDABC). 23:44 The two things that must be known for value-based care to succeed. 24:06 Article by Dana Prommel Strauss. 27:09 A quick summary of the conversation thus far. 30:42 The power of transparency in Dr. Siva's bubble plots. 32:39 EP449 with Marty Makary, MD, MPH. 34:05 Why these bubble plots work not just at the procedural level but at the diagnosis level, too. 36:13 EP503 with Ryan Wells; Leo Spector, MD, MBA; and Adam Stavisky. 36:21 EP501 with Ivana Krajcinovic, PhD. 36:30 EP398 with Jacob Asher, MD. 37:28 The "big blue ocean" opportunity for forward-looking providers. 38:52 Substack post by John Lee, MD. 40:37 The incredible opportunity for entities and groups that can help provide the infrastructure needed for this value index. 41:42 Essay written by Dr. Siva. 43:19 Last thoughts by Dr. Siva on TDABC and competition on value.

Why Advanced Primary Care Doesn't Scale: Conflicting Incentives, Complacency, and a 3-Step Roadmap Stacey Richter interviews Ryan Jacobs (SVP Strategy and Partnerships, Marathon Health) on why evidence-backed advanced primary care (APC)—focused on managing risk, improving outcomes, and lowering costs—still isn't widespread. They argue APC struggles to scale due to two root barriers: conflicting fiduciary duties (health systems and payers driven by volume, "heads in beds," and market-power growth, while APC keeps patients out of hospitals) and a "black box of complacency," where innovators often lose to the status quo because dominant organizations can rationally avoid investing without gaining share. Jacobs offers a three-step roadmap: perform a reality-based assessment by following the money and identifying who is financially harmed by prevention; anticipate stakeholders' math by framing value as CFOs, benefits leaders, and plan sponsors do; and proceed from strategic conclusions such as direct contracting to bypass misaligned intermediaries. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP504 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 A refresher on advanced primary care (APC). 02:36 Why APC isn't everywhere. 04:39 The problem of complacency in the healthcare system. 05:27 Ryan Jacobs' roadmap. 08:59 The pitfalls of advanced primary care. 09:58 What primary fiduciary responsibility means. 10:51 Growth on the payer side. 11:51 SUMS5 with Jacob Asher, MD. 12:36 EP483 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Jonathan Baran. 12:48 EP465 with Chris Crawford. 13:27 The reality of the healthcare system in the United States. 14:11 The flywheel created by the tension within the healthcare system. 15:25 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 15:51 The tension between APC's goals and fiduciary responsibility. 17:52 The black box of complacency. 19:25 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 20:05 What's driven most of the change in the advanced primary care space. 20:54 EP398 with Jacob Asher, MD. 21:01 What would happen if there was a functioning market in healthcare. 21:41 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 21:52 Why complacency may be a rational move in healthcare. 22:41 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 23:22 A roadmap to success in advanced primary care. 23:55 Step 1: Follow the money. 24:50 Step 2: Someone's gonna do math. 25:17 What strategic thinking looks like as an employer. 28:34 Step 3: Proceed based on strategic conclusions. 30:20 How self-insured employers have created their own market. 31:07 The strategic decision for physicians wanting to create change. 32:25 A reiteration of the episode's discussion. 33:49 Better payment structures.

In this Inbetweenisode, Stacey shares listener feedback and reflects on making better decisions in employer-sponsored healthcare, spotlighting LinkedIn posts by Ken Wosczyna and Michelle Bernabe. Ken argues Relentless Health Value moves from theory to practical transformation by sharpening judgment, which Stacey ties to how millions of workplace decisions shape the healthcare system and how actuaries and executives can align choices with values. Stacey emphasizes that good decisions require both transparency and understanding, previewing an upcoming episode with Jerry DiMaso about using transparency files to compare what peer companies pay, and citing examples of misleading "transparency" through complex contracting and financialization (e.g., CABG pricing and PBM tactics). She also questions what "disruption" means when the status quo already harms access. Stacey highlights direct contracting, Centers of Excellence, and upcoming advanced primary care episodes. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/INBW46 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction: trying something new with this inbetweenisode. 01:29 "Insight is common. Execution is rare.": a LinkedIn post from Ken Wosczyna. 03:02 SUMS8 with Larry Bauer, MSW, MEd. 03:08 The power of the C-suite versus the decision power of workers. 03:45 SUMS7 with Keith Passwater and JR Clark. 04:00 The power of actuaries to align with values. 04:50 Rate criticals for fixing the nonexistent healthcare market. 05:50 EP501 with Ivana Krajcinovic, PhD. 06:56 Why you can't fix what you don't understand. 07:46 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 09:27 A comment from Craig Herndon. 10:44 Why avoiding disruption and problems with access can create disruption and problems with access. 12:22 A LinkedIn post from Michelle Bernabe. 12:26 EP500 with Stacey. 15:56 Looking ahead: topics future episodes will be covering. 16:07 EP503 with Ryan Wells; Leo Spector, MD, MBA; and Adam Stavisky. 17:08 A Web site/app for Relentless Health Value episodes. 18:24 EP480 with Kimberly Carleson. 19:22 Check out this episode's sponsor.

Episode 503 of Relentless Health Value features Stacey Richter with Adam Stavisky, Dr. Leo Spector (OrthoCarolina), and Ryan Wells (Health Here) discussing how self-insured employers and specialists rarely connect directly due to intermediaries and fee-for-service "rails." They outline three common pitfalls when bridging this gap: defining and measuring quality and appropriateness (limits of claims data and missing patient-reported outcomes), achieving scale across geographies and specialties, and ensuring benefit design and incentives so members actually use direct-contracting programs. The conversation frames the evolution of Centers of Excellence from 1.0 (travel to brand-name hospitals) to 2.0 (more local but administratively manual) to 3.0 (new infrastructure enabling direct, efficient contracting). Health Here is described as a digital bridge to support payment and communication pathways and reduce administrative waste. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP503 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction. 00:32 Collaboration as the next breakthrough innovation. 02:24 A summary of the upcoming conversation. 05:45 A summary of where we are and what the future looks like. 06:24 A relevant post from Jonathan Baran. 08:12 The conversation with Ryan Wells, Dr. Leo Spector, and Adam Stavisky: collaboration from the standpoint of a specialist. 12:22 The pitfalls of data accuracy and defining what quality means from the POV of a self-insured employer. 15:36 Defining quality and data accuracy from the POV of a physician. 15:57 How do you measure outcomes when assessing quality and looking at the available data? 21:45 EP294 with Steve Schutzer, MD. 22:06 Scale and operationalization: How do we do it? 27:00 Shout-out to OrthoForum. 29:58 Take Two: EP398 with Jacob Asher, MD. 30:13 EP501 with Ivana Krajcinovic, PhD. 30:30 How things could be better. 33:29 One last complication and how to structure benefit design to align incentives. 35:33 What an "anti-cricket" program looks like. 37:24 EP308 with Mark Fendrick, MD. 37:34 How do we operationalize benefit design and aligned incentives? 39:39 What we're seeing today in Centers of Excellence 2.0. 41:47 What Adam wants to make clear in all of this.

Episode 502 features Stacey's conversation with Brian Machut (Alliant Health) on how widespread Medicare fee-for-service fraud is inflating costs and undermining ACO shared savings in MSSP and ACO REACH. ACOs uncovered major urinary catheter fraud in 2023 tied to codes A4352/A4353, totaling about $3.5B, with some beneficiaries billed for items never received (including a case shared by Dr. Tara Lagu). CMS created a "SAHS" (significant, anomalous, highly suspect) process to remove certain suspect costs, but benchmark effects can unevenly impact ACOs; catheter fraud is still projected at $3–$3.5B in 2025. The episode also highlights rapidly growing "skin substitute" spending projected at $13–$15B in 2025; CMS did not classify 2024 skin substitute costs as SAHS, leaving them in ACO performance calculations. Machut explains this fraud and missed CMS trend projections can reduce provider earnings, discourage participation in value-based care, and potentially drive cost shifting into higher commercial rates—affecting plan sponsors such as self-insured employers. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP502 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 One way hackers are using medical data to commit Medicare fraud. 01:49 What today's conversation with Brian Machut entails. 02:16 The downstream impact that this Medicare fraud can have. 03:30 A brief outline of how plan sponsors can be affected by this Medicare fraud. 06:38 What does a value-based actuary do? 08:04 The conversation with Brian Machut: What caused his team to look into DME costs and uncover Medicare fraud? 08:46 How much did this fraud scheme cost organizations in 2023? 09:57 How this data was tracked down and uncovered. 11:13 How fee-for-service ACOs work, and why this Medicare fraud affected the ACOs' shared savings. 12:46 The two codes that were the target of this fraud. 15:13 Across the U.S., how much money in 2023 did this fraud, waste, and abuse cost, and what was done about it? 16:14 The framework that was created to combat this fraud spend. 17:49 Why the CMS decision to pull those expenditures negatively affected some ACOs. 20:17 Where things stand now with this catheter fraud. 21:33 Why this fraud is still able to happen. 22:19 Is this a use case for prior authorizations? 23:49 How this Medicare fraud affects self-insured employers and what they should keep in mind. 25:12 What is the correlation to employee affordability? 27:08 A cost that dwarfs the catheter Medicare fraud. 28:21 A brief summary of skin substitutes. 29:32 What SAHS means, and how CMS uses it to calculate an ACO's shared savings. 31:21 Why CMS chose not to classify skin substitutes as SAHS. 33:26 Why this fraud affects ACOs' prospective trend pricing risk. 36:40 Why these fraud cases make participating in ACO programs less appealing to provider organizations. 38:28 Medicare Advantage Advance Notice for 2027.

Episode 501 of Relentless Health Value features Stacey Richter interviewing Ivana Krajcinovic, outgoing Vice President of Healthcare Delivery at Unite Here Health, about extreme and persistent price variation for medical infusions as evidence of a "no market" in healthcare. They cite examples where the same chemotherapy drug (Oxaliplatin), long off patent, cost Medicare about $35 (or $185 for a series), an independent practice about $135, but a hospital in Chicago charged $13,560 and a hospital in Monterey billed $90,000 for a series—markups described as up to nearly 500x and far beyond Medicare. The discussion highlights how these prices create major member affordability problems through co-insurance and reduce funds available for wages, with one Monterey analysis showing nearly $1 million in annual savings by moving just two patients to an independent oncology practice. They argue that functioning markets would rationalize prices and that carrier networks often fail as a demand curve, showing apathy and relying on broad "discount" negotiations even when prices differ by hundreds of times, including cases within the same health system. Krajcinovic describes a roadmap to fight back: drill into claims data, push back on providers and networks, use benefit design to steer site of care, carve out utilization management and case management to support member navigation, and pursue direct contracts with independent practices. They also discuss the "whack-a-mole" dynamic of hospital pricing and the value of collective action, media attention and regulatory forums such as California's Office of Health Care Affordability. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://bit.ly/Episode501 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 $135 vs $13,560: How infusion drug prices play into the "Inches All Around Us" series. 02:02 How infusion drug pricing fits into the "No Market" series. 03:19 A roadmap and more episodes on this topic. 04:36 Introducing this week's expert, Ivana Krajcinovic, PhD. 05:10 A must-read Bloomberg News article on infusion pricing. 05:33 An overview of what to expect from this episode. 06:54 The first tell of the infusion nonmarket. 07:41 The price variations that Ivana has seen in the infusion nonmarket. 11:39 How hospital spend affects wage increases affects patients and employees twice over. 12:04 EP373 with Cora Opsahl. 13:43 The second tell of the infusion nonmarket. 14:33 Take Two: EP398 with Jacob Asher, MD. 14:55 EP483 with Jonathan Baran. 16:15 Why networks are apathetic to this pricing discrepancy. 17:55 The factors that play into the nonmarket issue of infusion drug pricing variations. 18:26 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 19:18 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 19:45 Are pricing discrepancies easy to spot? 22:38 Where we have power in a nonmarket situation. 23:22 A recap of the advice in the show so far. 23:39 EP493 with John Quinn. 23:41 EP496 with Mark Newman. 25:51 How you place pricing pressure on an entity. 28:47 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 29:34 How an improved market creates time for better care coordination. 30:52 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 33:23 The fourth part of the roadmap. 36:41 EP492 and EP490 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone. 36:49 Why serving the community and being fiscally responsible should go hand in hand. 38:05 EP500 with Stacey.

The Non-Market Reality of Healthcare Carrier Marketplaces with Dr. Jacob Asher. In this episode of Relentlessly Seeking Value, host Stacey Richter introduces the 'No Market' series focused on the healthcare sector's lack of competitive market dynamics, which affects cost and quality. The episode features a conversation with Dr. Jacob Asher, who has extensive experience as a Chief Medical Officer at major healthcare plans. They discuss the stagnant nature of commercial carrier marketplaces, particularly in California, and the various factors contributing to this stasis, including employer inertia, the influence of employee benefit consultants, and the strategic focus of carriers on Medicare Advantage over commercial business. They also explore how carriers' dependence on existing provider networks and contractual negotiations based on member volumes contribute to a lack of meaningful competition. The episode highlights the challenges faced by plans attempting to innovate or differentiate on quality and the systemic issues that perpetuate the current equilibrium. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/Take2-EP398 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction to the episode. 00:42 The "No Market" series. 01:51 Why is the carrier market boring? 04:26 A breakdown of what follows. 05:48 Six reasons why a marketplace doesn't actually exist. 10:04 Upcoming episodes in the "No Market" series. 10:41 The conversation with Dr. Jacob Asher. 11:01 What is the competitive picture of California's health plans? 11:03 Understanding the California health plan market. 12:28 What the competitive landscape looks like to get market share in California. 12:55 Challenges in market competition. 13:14 What are micro markets and market drivers? 15:14 How brokers and consultants shape the marketplace. 15:49 Why is it difficult to take market share? 16:56 Who was Dr. Asher pitching to and why? 18:56 How is Kaiser's position in the marketplace unique? 19:29 Did employers ever buy plans for quality? 23:23 What does this look like from the payer perspective? 27:42 What improvements have there been to engagement in health plans? 29:47 Have plans gotten better at communicating with employers? 31:19 Why is it hard to compare the Kaiser world to the non-Kaiser world? 31:19 Dr. Asher's final thoughts and reflections. 33:40 EP390 with Gloria Sachdev, PharmD, and Chris Skisak, PhD.

In the milestone Episode 500 of the 'Relentless Health Value' podcast, Stacey Richter reflects on the significant influence and community formed around the platform. Initiated by a conversation with Cora Opsahl, the episode transforms into a heartfelt ode to the listeners — healthcare entrepreneurs, executives, and change-makers, whom Stacey refers to as 'the tribe.' Featured contributions from several listeners highlight themes such as moving from theory to practical transformation, the power of collective momentum, and 'unplugging from the Matrix' of opaque healthcare practices. Notable testimonials underline how the podcast has guided real-world decisions, fostered community connections, and provided actionable insights that have tangibly influenced the healthcare sector. The episode concludes with gratitude for the tribe's effort toward transforming the healthcare system and a forward-looking encouragement to remain relentless in their mission. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP500 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction and episode 500 announcement. 00:22 The origin of episode 500. 01:49 The LinkedIn post and its impact. 02:43 Celebrating the Relentless Health Tribe. 07:55 Clip from Michelle Bernabe and how EP373 gave her a framework to model off of and understand that the failures in healthcare weren't personal failures. 10:08 Theme 1: Moving From Theory to Practical Transformation. 10:38 Clip from Ken Wosczyna and the episodes that have led to consistently good decisions in his work. 11:27 The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. 12:55 Examples of tribe members changing and improving their corner of healthcare after being inspired by RHV episodes. 13:54 Clip from Mark Weber. 14:54 Clip from Alex Sommers, MD, and how EP391 and EP462 changed his work 16:13 Clip from John Lee, MD, and how RHV helped him realize that "gaming the system" can also be used for good. 18:42 Theme 2: The Power of the Tribe and Collective Momentum. 19:28 Clip from Justin Leader. 21:45 Why being a "good villager" is so important to the overall outcome of healthcare. 23:22 Clip from Cristin Dickerson, MD, and how she draws inspiration from various RHV episodes. 25:21 Clip from Andrew Gordon. 27:39 Theme 3: Unplugging From the Matrix of Healthcare Opacity. 28:32 Clip from Andrew Tsang. 29:29 RHV episodes that cover better value out of health benefits. 32:15 Clip from Sergei Polevikov. 34:11 What tech needs to do in order for healthcare to succeed and improve. 35:06 Clip from Bryce Platt, PharmD. 36:01 More RHV episodes on unplugging from pricing opacity.

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter talks with Dr. Jay Kimmel, an orthopedic surgeon and co-founder of Upswing Health, about the significant costs associated with musculoskeletal (MSK) injuries and conditions for self-insured employers and other plan sponsors. They explore how a large portion of MSK-related expenses are for low-acuity injuries that often heal on their own without the need for emergency room visits or unnecessary treatments. Dr. Kimmel discusses the importance of addressing the 'white space'—the critical initial moments when a patient decides whether or not to seek emergency care. He emphasizes the value of immediate access to knowledgeable professionals to help guide these decisions and prevent avoidable high-cost care. They also touch on historical practices where physicians would consult each other informally, suggesting that modern solutions like Upswing Health can replicate those beneficial spontaneous interactions to improve patient care and reduce costs. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP499 🔗 Visit Upswing Health: https://upswinghealth.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:49 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD, on high-cost claimants. 08:01 What is the "white space" in MSK spend? 10:43 Statistics on Connecticut's spending on plan members with low-acuity MSK injuries. 13:30 How back pain also easily transitions from a low-acuity issue to a high-acuity problem. 15:11 How plan sponsors can detect their white space downstream spend. 16:58 EP464 with Al Lewis. 17:02 EP470 with Nikki King, DHA. 18:15 Why where patients start their journey often dictates where they wind up and how costly that medical pathway is. 20:48 Where PCPs fit into this MSK spend issue. 25:26 EP468 with Matt McQuide. 25:34 EP471 with Christine Hale, MD, MBA. 25:39 Why access is key.

In Episode 498, host Stacey Richter converses with Mark Noel of ClaimInsight about the critical aspects of payment integrity within self-insured employers and plan sponsors, focusing on the arms race with revenue cycle management (RCM). The discussion reveals three main insights: the substantial impact of small claim errors, the inherent flaws and conflicts within prepayment analysis by TPAs, and the problematic financial incentives influencing claim processing. Noel emphasizes the importance of prepayment integrity for both plan savings and protecting members, underscoring the need for meticulous oversight and proactive management in payment processes. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP498 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe ✉️ Visit ClaimInsight https://www.claiminsight.com/ 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:03 How millions of dollars can be recovered per year from smaller claims under $500. 07:46 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 09:10 How to get to payment integrity prepayment. 11:20 How payment processing efficiency is necessary to payment integrity. 13:59 How TPAs fit into the claims payment process and how they can add to payment integrity. 15:59 LinkedIn post from Chris Deacon. 16:50 EP433 with Justin Leader. 17:04 LinkedIn post from Justin Leader. 17:10 How shared savings incentives can be perverse incentives. 23:05 How employers are doing retrospective reviews. 24:29 How employers should be negotiating their TPA contracts. 25:41 EP285 with Dawn Cornelis. 25:43 EP480 with Kimberly Carleson. 27:40 Why it's imperative that payment integrity vendors are up-to-date on all policies. 30:00 EP497 with Zack Kanter. 31:13 What should self-insured employers do to assess their payment integrity?

In this Take Two episode of Relentlessly Seeking Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Gary Campbell, CEO of Johnson Health Center, an FQHC in Virginia. The discussion centers around the importance of fiscal discipline in healthcare, especially in federally qualified health centers where there's no opportunity to cost-shift inefficiencies. This episode also revisits the notable experience and practices of Nikki King, CEO of Alliance Health Centers, focusing on her innovative methods to overcome operational challenges without additional funding. The conversation highlights the importance of visionary leadership, cultural alignment, and operational efficiency to deliver high-quality patient care and maintain financial health. Gary Campbell emphasizes the necessity of strategic planning, involving clinicians in decision-making, and standardizing processes to create a better work environment and optimize patient care. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/TakeTwo-EP341 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 09:03 Why is there no opportunity to cost shift in an FQHC? 09:34 What happens when an FQHC is operating inefficiently? 10:00 "Have you workflowed it out? … You can overstaff yourself in a way that your cost per patient goes way up." 10:23 Why is taking a lean approach not an excuse to cut staff? 11:27 EP490 and EP492 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 11:35 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 11:38 EP455 with Beau Raymond, MD. 11:40 EP402 with Amy Scanlan, MD. 11:42 EP405 with Eric Gallagher. 12:48 "The nurses are linchpins to everything." 13:44 LinkedIn post from Eve Cunningham, MD, MBA. 15:10 How does standardizing care lead to personalization of care? 16:34 "Our clinical teams see that we care." 16:53 "If you don't have a vision for where you want to be two and three years down the road, you're struggling." 17:09 "I want everybody to understand, What is their why?" 19:45 Lean & Meaningful by Roger E. Herman and Joyce L. Gioia. 24:44 "You have to project plan things out that you want." 25:51 "They don't teach leadership in most medical schools."—Dr. Robert Pearl 26:46 Outlive by Peter Attia, MD. 27:55 "Get to know these clinicians." 29:39 "From a core values perspective, you can make every single decision … on core values." 30:03 "We always start with those values. … They're embedded in everything we do." 30:20 How does an FQHC or private practices that are patient-oriented attract talent? 35:24 EP297 with Jerry Durham. 35:54 "First and foremost, be visible."

In Episode 497 of Relentless Health Value, Stacey Richter engages in a detailed conversation with Zack Kanter, CEO of Stedi about the complexities and inefficiencies inherent in healthcare transactions and clearinghouses. They discuss how non-standardized processes and legacy systems result in exorbitant costs and delays in claims processing and eligibility checks, which are significantly higher compared to other industries. Despite HIPAA's standardized rules, the lack of competitive pressure and outdated technology contribute to these issues, ultimately impacting patient care and administrative costs. Zack offers insights on how modernizing the clearinghouse infrastructure can lead to substantial cost savings and better patient outcomes. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP497 🔗 Visit Stedi: https://www.stedi.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 09:47 What things are being paid for that we might not be aware we're paying for in healthcare? 12:09 Why HIPAA actually makes healthcare more standardized than other industries. 15:35 How healthcare is ahead in some ways and behind in others. 18:03 Where do the 4 to 5 days come from in healthcare transaction processing? 20:39 Why these transaction delays affect care delay. 23:14 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 23:18 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 27:10 How should the process work from the time a provider clicks "validate"? 30:19 Why is the clearinghouse the right place to solve all these issues? 31:41 Why are we where we are in terms of these issues? 35:28 Why people should be looking at their clearinghouse costs. 36:59 What to know about Stedi.

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, Stacey Richter engages with Mark Newman, CEO and founder of Nomi Health, in a deep dive into the administrative and transactional inefficiencies plaguing the American healthcare system. The conversation highlights how plan sponsors often spend more than a dollar to purchase healthcare, yet healthcare providers receive only a fraction of that amount due to data fragmentation and varied accounting practices. Mark Newman reveals two main issues: 'data isn't data' and 'a dollar isn't a dollar,' explaining how inconsistencies and misalignments in data and accounting methods lead to significant waste. The discussion also explores innovative solutions Nomi Health is piloting to streamline payments, reduce friction, and ultimately lower healthcare costs while improving care. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP496 🔗 Visit our sponsor Nomi Health: https://www.nomihealth.com/ ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:48 What is actionable to know about the life of a claim? 08:14 How data can change as it moves through the claims process. 11:45 Why a dollar isn't a dollar in healthcare. 18:50 Why employers are actually paying more than a dollar to access a dollar of healthcare (the medical loss ratio). 21:54 Why cutting out the "friction" is actually better for employees and members. 22:48 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 22:50 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 23:36 EP490 and EP492 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone. 23:53 Infographic by Andrew Tsang showing 27 streams of income. 26:53 How do we fix these issues? 28:05 LinkedIn comment from Sandra Raup. 28:59 How Nomi Health is experimenting with a no co-payment, no deductible model. 31:29 INBW42 with Stacey on moral hazard. 32:26 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 32:31 EP485 with Cristin Dickerson, MD. 32:56 The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen. 34:55 How does Nomi Health work with and help employers?

In this Part 2 episode of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' host Stacey Richter recaps the prominent themes 4 and 5 from 2025. The focus is on two major themes: the lack of transparency in data access leading to overspending and the necessity of shifting from volume-based to value-based purchasing in healthcare. The discussion includes insights from numerous healthcare professionals and case examples to underscore these vital themes affecting both patients and providers. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/INBW45 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction 03:30 Theme 4: lack of transparency and data access. 04:46 Clip of Elizabeth Mitchell from EP436. 07:07 Is there a tipping point finally coming regarding transparency? 08:58 Why and how siloed data is also part of this transparency issue. 11:37 How opaque pricing leads to more opaque pricing. 13:21 The need for transparency around ownership and what that looks like in healthcare. 14:06 Theme 5: the need to shift purchasing from discounts/volume to value. 14:52 Clip of Mark Cuban from EP488. 16:35 Clip of Sarah Emond from EP494. 17:02 How pricing transparency can eliminate the need for rebates and prior authorizations. 18:30 Why healthcare needs a demand curve. 22:09 Shows covered in 2025 that touched on other timely ideas.

In this 'Inbetweenisode' of the Relentless Health Value podcast, Stacey Richter recaps the major themes covered throughout 2025 in healthcare. In this Part 1, Stacey dives into three critical themes: the necessity of trusted relationships and simplicity, treating primary care as an investment rather than a cost, and the impact of perverse financial incentives and profiteering. Various experts, including Dr. Kenny Cole, Ann Lewandowski, Jonathan Baran, and Yashaswini Singh, share insights on these subjects. The discussion highlights the pervasive lack of trust in the healthcare system, the financial implications of underfunded primary care, and the negative effects of misaligned financial incentives and profiteering within the industry. Check out the show notes using the link below for all of the mentioned links and episodes. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/INBW44 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 02:06 Theme 1: the critical need for trusted relationships and simplicity. 02:28 The two categories of trust that are needed. 02:43 Clip of Kenny Cole, MD, from EP473. 03:43 Clip of Ann Lewandowski from EP476. 06:07 Why simplicity and trust have to go together. 08:30 Theme 2: primary care as an investment, not a cost. 08:41 Clip of Jonathan Baran from EP483 (Part 1). 09:01 Clip of Nikki King, DHA, from EP470. 09:34 How broken primary care affects self-insured employers. 10:12 Why there are perverse financial incentives to gut primary care. 15:19 Theme 3: the dominance of perverse financial incentives and profiteering. 15:46 Clip of Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA, from EP481. 16:18 The actual definition of margin. 16:55 Clip of Mick Connors, MD, from EP495. 18:25 Clip of Yashaswini Singh, PhD, from EP474.

In this encore episode of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' host Stacey Richter revisits an inspiring conversation with Marilyn Bartlett, a CPA who transformed the State of Montana's employee health plan from a $9 million deficit to a $112 million surplus within three years. Known for her fiscal discipline and patient-first approach, Marilyn shares her strategic steps, from identifying waste in the system and securing quick wins to negotiating better deals with hospitals and ensuring long-term success. She emphasizes the importance of assembling a strong team, maintaining transparency, and staying focused on the ultimate goal of creating real health value. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to drive meaningful change in the healthcare industry. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EncoreEP450 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:09 What gave Marilyn the confidence to fix Montana's state health plan? 08:35 Why Marilyn knew she would have enough power to make the changes needed in Montana's state health plan. 09:35 What Marilyn achieved in her time as the administrator of the Montana State Employee Health Plan. 11:03 What were the "quick wins" Marilyn was able to achieve when she first took over as administrator? 17:55 EP453 with Claire Brockbank, which covers RFP in detail. 18:12 How Marilyn structured her plan for the Montana State Employee Health Plan. 21:42 What's the key to setting yourself up for success when doing what Marilyn was able to achieve? 25:23 Why putting together your own team is so important. 28:20 EP397 with Paul Homes. 28:24 EP418 with Mark Cuban and Ferrin Williams, PharmD, MBA. 29:28 What happened when Marilyn left the Montana State Employee Health Plan? 31:28 Have the costs of the plan gone up since Marilyn's time working on it?

In episode 495 titled 'Wait. Flip that. A Crazy Revelation I Had About Trying to Fix US Healthcare,' host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Mick Connors, an emergency room pediatrician and healthcare entrepreneur, about a groundbreaking insight into the US healthcare system. They discuss the paramount need to flip the way healthcare costs and outcomes are measured: moving towards unit-level cost accounting and whole-patient or whole-community outcomes assessment. The episode delves into the fundamental pitfalls of the current healthcare structure, emphasizing the misalignment between cost aggregation and patient-level outcome measurements. They explore the challenges faced by physicians in the current system, the role of investor mindsets, and the importance of dyad leadership and mission-driven practices to improve overall healthcare value. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP495 🔗 Visit this week's sponsor Payerset: https://payerset.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls= 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth 06:32 How Dr. Mick Connors defines margin. 08:18 EP294 with Steve Schutzer, MD. 08:54 Why nobody wants to do cost accounting in healthcare. 09:20 EP490 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 11:05 Infographic by Andrew Tsang showing streams of income. 12:27 What is the value equation? 15:55 EP404 with Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA. 15:59 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 16:01 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 16:25 EP474 with Yashaswini Singh, PhD. 17:44 How business decisions can really undermine the value proposition. 18:58 Classic article on incentivizing. 23:07 EP295 with Rebecca Etz, PhD. 24:21 Why it comes down to the 80/20 rule. 26:31 EP445 with Tom X. Lee, MD. 26:35 EP460 with Rushika Fernandopulle, MD. 26:40 Why mission return requires dyad leadership. 27:13 What does dyad leadership mean? 27:33 EP492 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone.

In Episode 494 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter engages in a detailed discussion with Sarah Emond, CEO of ICER, about the intricate dynamics of pharmaceutical drug pricing. They explore six primary tensions within the current system, including the fair valuation of drugs, the misalignment between drug prices and patient affordability, the disconnect between lifetime drug value and short-term insurance assessments, and the challenge of integrating societal and individual perceptions of value. Emond and Richter also discuss potential solutions, emphasizing the need for value-based pricing models free from financial conflicts of interest. They highlight the critical role of payers, PBMs, and drug manufacturers in aligning pricing with value to improve patient access and reduce overall healthcare costs. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP494 🔗 Visit our sponsor Payerset https://payerset.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:18 Why list prices are a lie. 10:59 How does the rebate model sometimes get in the way of paying for value? 12:50 Bonus clip with Sarah Emond. 13:14 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 13:20 EP490 and EP492 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 14:37 The tension that is created between affordability and adherence. 15:03 When cost sharing makes sense in pharmaceutical drug pricing. 17:26 INBW42 with Stacey on moral hazard. 18:53 How GLP-1s are "wildly cost effective." 21:32 Why the sticker shock on cost-effective drugs is a failure in the system for paying for value. 22:38 ICER's report on GLP-1s. 26:59 EP385 with Dan Mendelson. 28:57 How employers and payers can have a value assessment approach and a health insurance system that allows access to cost-effective drugs. 29:48 How cost-effective prices are calculated. 31:55 One of the core value underpinnings for value assessment of drugs. 34:54 Why manufacturers and pharmacy benefit managers should work together more by referencing something like an ICER report. 36:55 EP426 with Nina Lathia, RPh, MSc, PhD. 38:21 "We can make different choices."

In this bonus episode of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' host Stacey Richter engages in a conversation with Sarah Emond, CEO of the Institute for Clinical and Economic Review (ICER). They discuss the complex 'arms race' of pharmaceutical pricing in the current healthcare system, emphasizing issues like inflated drug list prices, patient affordability, and cost-effectiveness. They highlight ICER's role in conducting value assessments of prescription drugs to ensure fair pricing and improve affordability and access. The episode underscores the need for multi-stakeholder dialogues to deescalate financial tensions and promote value-based healthcare choices. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP494-BonusClip 🔗 Visit our sponsor Payerset: https://payerset.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:51 EP293 ("Game Theory Gone Wild") with Dea Belazi, PharmD, MPH. 02:38 What is ICER? 02:54 What does the Institute for Clinical and Economic Review do? 05:14 The importance of still showing up, even when others don't understand or disagree. 09:12 Why it's important to think about population health and how our choices impact affordability for everyone.

In this special Thanksgiving episode of Relentless Healthcare Value, the focus is on gratitude and giving thanks to various contributors within the healthcare community. Host Stacey Richter extends her 'baskets of thank yous' to colleagues, mentors, and partners committed to transforming healthcare. These baskets recognize those who maintain respectful dialogues despite small disagreements, those who collaborate and pay it forward within the community, and those who support the concept of a 'demand curve' in healthcare markets. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/INBW43 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 01:25 First thank you: to those who do not succumb to healthcare narcissism. 01:36 INBW39 with Stacey. 02:51 INBW37 with Stacey. 03:00 EP399 and EP400 with Stacey. 05:40 Second thank you: to those willing to pay it forward. 05:53 EP489 with Dan Greenleaf. 08:12 EP452 with Cora Opsahl. 08:38 Third thank you: to those who aid the demand curve in healthcare. 09:14 EP490 with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD. 09:16 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 09:17 EP492 with Sam Flanders, MD, and Shane Cerone. 09:49 Why healthcare needs a demand curve. 13:34 Fourth thank you: to those who have contributed financial support to the Relentless Health Value podcast. 15:47 The final thank you: to the listeners.

This OG of directly contracted high-value networks or Centers of Excellence networks came up, name dropped and everything in the episode with Elizabeth Mitchell from PBGH, the Purchaser Business Group on Health, from two weeks ago. That was episode 491. So, welcome to this deep cut episode with Olivia Ross from way back, pre-pandemic times. This episode of Relentless Health Value revisits the concept of directly contracted high value networks or Centers of Excellence (ECEN) with Olivia Ross. The discussion explores the impact and potential of the ECEN network, emphasizing the importance of quality, price transparency, and multidisciplinary approaches in healthcare. Olivia delves into the reasons why ECEN was significant in past PBGH projects and its current relevance, despite its eventual dismantling due to corporate changes. The episode highlights the benefits for employers in creating their own high-value networks and the positive outcomes from fewer unnecessary surgeries and better quality care. Additionally, it covers the rigorous process of selecting Centers of Excellence and how continuous quality improvement efforts benefit both employers and healthcare providers. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/Take2-EP240 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:40 Prospective bundles and the cost of care. 08:22 How the largest cost savings come from the improvements in quality. 09:51 What Olivia looks for in choosing centers of excellence. 10:36 Creating market pressure and avoiding consolidation. 11:17 Creating positive disruption in the healthcare system. 12:17 How Olivia chooses the centers and providers she works with in the Purchaser Business Group on Health. 13:12 The quality metrics Purchaser Business Group on Health looks at when assessing providers and centers. 14:04 What a team assessment is, and why it's important. 15:07 How local PCPs have to factor into this health care model. 17:57 How Purchaser Business Group on Health intervenes in the patient journey to ensure that the patient and the employer are getting the best quality care for the best price. 19:39 Olivia's suggestions on how to have an intervening conversation with a patient who has already been told he or she needs surgery. 20:18 EP468 with Matt McQuide. 20:20 EP471 with Christine Hale, MD, MBA. 20:22 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 25:27 "Even at a more competitive price point, there's still an upside to them getting this new business." 25:52 How choosing specific physicians is part of the COE designation process. 27:35 How COEs and their physicians are also involved in continuous quality improvement. 30:56 Employers Centers of Excellence Network collaboration with The Leapfrog Group. 32:24 How the Employers Centers of Excellence Network program is open to any employer, no matter the size. 32:54 What it takes to join the Employers Centers of Excellence Network.

In Episode 493 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter engages in an enlightening discussion with John Quinn, CEO of Wellnecity, about the current revelations and challenges employer CEOs are facing within the healthcare market. Stacey explores whether average employer C-suites are recognizing the fundamental myth that a functioning healthcare market exists. The conversation dives into how self-insured employers are substantially the demand side of the healthcare market and why their lack of insistence on a true market exacerbates high prices. John Quinn shares insights on why C-suites and boards are now more attuned to healthcare spending, emphasizing the need for real-time, correct data and comprehensive vendor accountability. A significant takeaway is the shift from viewing health benefits management as a one-time annual task to adopting a continuous, year-long strategic approach. Finally, the episode delves into actionable steps for employers to manage healthcare costs more effectively without compromising employee health, urging them to move beyond traditional cost-shifting tactics. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP493 🔗 Visit our Sponsor Wellnicity https://wellnecity.com/: ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:06 Why CEOs are looking more closely at healthcare spend. 08:06 EP397 with Paul Holmes. 08:21 How savings and health benefits are directly connected. 10:45 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 11:46 What missed earnings look like in relation to healthcare. 14:27 How costs have been shifting to employees for years, and why this doesn't work anymore. 17:36 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 18:23 What employers need to do instead of cost shift. 19:12 EP406 with Lauren Vela. 21:30 Why it's important to make health benefit changes at the speed of business, not at the speed of the benefits year. 26:17 Why is it important to put a finance function into your benefits? 27:10 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 27:33 EP478 (Part 1) with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire. 27:35 Why daily data matters. 31:10 EP487 (Part 1) with Kevin Lyons. 31:21 Why it's important to hold vendors accountable. 31:47 Why it's important to move on from vendors who can't hold up to your scrutiny and needs. 33:46 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 34:46 EP471 with Christine Hale, MD, MBA.

In this episode, host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Sam Flanders and Shane Cerone about creating a high-quality hospital management model focused on surviving at 150% of Medicare costs. They discuss the inefficiencies in health systems and practical solutions to improve them without compromising quality. The conversation covers the importance of empowering frontline staff, adopting continuous improvement models like Toyota's, and the critical role of employers in reshaping market dynamics through direct negotiation and price transparency. The episode emphasizes actionable steps for hospital executives, plan sponsors, and employers to drive significant improvements in healthcare efficiency and affordability. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP492 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:08 What are the many problems that health systems deal with? 08:44 EP483 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Jonathan Baran. 09:43 What was the real achievement in building this hospital system? 10:25 EP489 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Dan Greenleaf. 10:42 Why productivity and patient access are the top two things to focus on. 11:36 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 12:32 EP455 with Beau Raymond, MD. 12:58 The lean model versus the Toyota model. 16:06 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 16:40 EP481 with Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA. 17:44 Why small changes accumulated create greater change than big changes. 21:01 How an efficiency mindset can increase improvement faster. 27:42 Why administrators should not be negotiators. 28:11 EP491 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 29:06 What are the steps to this multifaceted process? 30:17 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 30:48 Study by Suhas Gondi, MD, MBA, on hospital boards. 33:03 Why it's important to focus on the pricing issue first. 33:49 What Kada Health is all about.

In Episode 491, Stacey Richter interviews Elizabeth Mitchell, CEO of the Purchaser's Business Group on Health (PBGH), about the PBGH Transparency Demonstration Project. They discuss the project's aim to provide jumbo self-insured employers with transparency in healthcare costs, quality, and safety data. Collaborating with Milliman and Embold and funded by the Peterson Center on Healthcare, PBGH's project reveals no correlation between higher prices and quality in healthcare services. The episode highlights the impacts on TPAs, consultants, and clinical organizations, and underscores the importance of employers using this new transparency data for strategic advantage and compliance with the Consolidated Appropriations Act. Richter and Mitchell delve into the broader implications for creating high-value networks and fostering market competition based on quality and affordability. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP491 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:35 How did PBGH's transparency project start? 07:35 EP428 with Julie Selesnick. 07:37 EP408 with Chris Deacon. 07:39 Why the changes to the CAA and ERISA meant heightened risk for employers and individuals within companies. 09:09 "You can't outsource the risk." 11:10 How PBGH's transparency project demonstrated some clients being noncompliant. 12:52 Why is it irresponsible not to use the data presented if you're a self-insured employer? 15:06 How did PBGH use the transparency data and apply it effectively to improve their offerings and business? 18:37 Why TPAs should not negotiate contracts. 19:17 EP485 with Cristin Dickerson, MD. 19:22 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 19:24 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 20:58 "There is no good price for unsafe care." 21:36 How PBGH found using the transparency data to be totally feasible. 25:03 EP483 (Part 1) with Jonathan Baran. 25:32 Why the market will evolve with this data. 28:04 EP369 with Keith Hartman, RPh. 28:06 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 28:34 What PBGH discovered about high-value centers and centers of excellence. 28:59 EP240 with Olivia Ross. 32:26 Why incentives are another challenge. 33:49 Why this is good news for unconflicted benefits consultants. 36:04 EP487 (Part 1) with Kevin Lyons. 39:48 Why transparency is going to become the new normal. 40:22 The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen. 42:14 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 44:07 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 45:22 Why there is a great incentive to be a great clinician right now. 46:18 How this information can motivate competition in the right place. 46:52 EP490 (Part 1) with Shane Cerone and Sam Flanders, MD.

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Shane Cerone and Dr. Sam Flanders of Kada Health about three pervasive myths in the healthcare industry. They discuss the belief in a functioning healthcare market, the necessity of high prices for hospital survival, and the notion that reducing prices means lower quality care. Highlighting the inefficiencies and lack of competition in the current system, they address the importance of transparency and competition. This episode sets the stage for a follow-up discussion focusing on tangible solutions and improvements for the healthcare system. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP490-Part1 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 09:28 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 09:31 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 09:42 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 10:08 Why we need to focus on prices in healthcare. 11:50 The first myth that holds change back: the healthcare "market." 15:04 EP286 with John Rodis, MD, MBA. 15:51 The reality behind why there is no functional market in healthcare. 17:11 Why price simplicity is so important. 19:15 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 19:31 How there is pricing failure while hospitals are still facing razor-thin margins. 22:11 The second myth: Can a hospital survive on Medicare rates alone? 25:21 What is the best hospitals can achieve? 26:01 List of hospitals recognized as national leaders for care quality and affordability. 29:23 The third myth: When you lower prices, do you get lower quality? 33:11 Why a decentralized approach at improvement is the way to lower cost and raise quality.

In Episode 489 Part 2 of 'Relentlessly Seeking Value,' Stacey Richter continues the series on 'Mission Margin' by focusing on the financial sustainability aspect with guest Dan Greenleaf, CEO of Duly, a multi-specialty group. The episode dives into the balance between maintaining mission-driven healthcare, which includes affordability, accessibility, and quality, and achieving financial margins. Dan discusses practical strategies like reducing network leakage, negotiating effectively with payers, and leveraging technologies to lower operational costs. The conversation also highlights the significance of clinician involvement in leadership and the value of having aligned incentives across the organization. Additionally, the episode addresses the role of capital partners in sustaining such healthcare models and ensuring they are effective and sustainable. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP489-Part2 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/. 09:56 How does Dan achieve his mission given the realities of margin? 14:49 How Duly Health's approach and incentives differ from other health systems. 16:04 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 16:28 EP462 with Scott Conard, MD. 16:31 Summer Shorts episode with Stan Schwartz, MD. 17:27 EP460 with Rushika Fernandopulle, MD. 17:29 EP445 with Tom X. Lee, MD. 17:30 EP407 with Vivek Garg, MD, MBA. 18:50 How having physicians on the hospital board greatly improves margin and mission. 20:04 How Dan explains his approach to his capital partners. 22:23 Fee for service vs. institutional care.

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, Stacey Richter talks mission with Dan Greenleaf, CEO of Duly Health and Care. Next week we cover margin. The discussion delves into the crucial balance between mission and margin in healthcare, highlighting how focusing on mission can drive financial stability. The interview centers around four key quadrants of Duly's mission: affordability, access, consumer experience, and quality. Greenleaf emphasizes how these elements are interconnected and essential for providing better healthcare outcomes and financial viability. The episode is part of a series exploring the mission/margin dynamic in the healthcare industry, and sets the stage for a deeper dive into how mission-focused strategies can result in decent margins in next week's episode. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP489-Part1 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:32 What should mission be in multispecialty? 08:54 Are mission and margin mutually exclusive? 10:47 What are the four "vectors" of Dan's mission? 11:32 Why does affordability matter? 12:11 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 12:40 EP488 with Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl. 13:32 Who are the three payers in the marketplace? 17:31 EP388 with Merrill Goozner. 19:19 How does access play into mission? 20:28 EP464 with Al Lewis. 21:07 EP467 with Stacey. 22:56 Why price transparency is important to consumer experience. 24:16 LinkedIn post from Patrick Moore. 29:06 EP481 with Benjamin Schwartz, MD, MBA.

Stacey Richter is joined by Mark Cuban, CEO and founder of Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs, and Cora Opsahl, Health Fund Director of the 32BJ Health Fund, to discuss pressing issues in American healthcare. The conversation centers on the inefficiencies and complexities created by high deductible health plans and the layers of vendors self-insured employers hire to manage healthcare claims. Mark Cuban and Cora Opsahl advocate for direct contracting and increased transparency as solutions to reduce costs and improve outcomes. They also explore the potential of simplifying the system back to a more straightforward model where healthcare prices are transparent, and patients and providers can establish trust. This episode emphasizes the importance of leadership and a proactive approach in managing healthcare costs. If you are listening to this prior to October 9, 2025, go to the 32BJ Changing the Playbook on Hospital Prices event, where Mark Cuban will be keynoting. Cora Opsahl will also be speaking, and I will be there listening. https://32bjhealthinsights.org/2025-events/ === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP488 🔗 Healthcare Industry Acronyms and Terms https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/healthcare-acronymns ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:25 What was the original rationale behind high deductibles? 07:38 How high deductibles are creating a class of functionally uninsured people. 09:29 EP482 with Preston Alexander. 10:20 "We're using health insurance as a proxy for healthcare." —Mark 12:30 How providers are now in the debt collecting business rather than the healthcare business. 12:55 EP486 with Stan Schwartz, MD. 15:16 "We have a fundamental reasonability problem." —Cora 16:07 EP425 with Marshall Allen. 18:25 Direct contracting versus self-funded employers. 19:27 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 19:30 EP480 with Kimberly Carleson. 19:33 EP372 with Cora Opsahl. 23:53 Why the current system doesn't allow the accountability that is needed. 24:39 EP452 with Cora Opsahl. 26:34 How direct contracting gives strength back to independent practices that high deductible plans take away. 27:46 Who pays, what's the price, and where does the power lie? 31:24 EP419 with Andreas Mang. 34:45 How it comes down to power and leverage when controlling healthcare costs. 38:13 EP483 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Jonathan Baran. 38:35 Why putting together a network and just buying healthcare—not discounts—is not as difficult as it seems. 40:10 Why we need to stop talking about disruption and start talking about change. 40:56 EP453 with Claire Brockbank. 41:02 EP484 with Dave Chase. 43:07 EP485 with Cristin Dickerson, MD. 44:32 EP487 (Part 1) with Kevin Lyons. 46:34 EP466 with Vivian Ho, PhD. 47:40 Why it's the incentives that are different between American hospitals and hospitals in a single-payer program. 50:25 The main takeaways from the conversation. 51:08 Why you can't fix the problems in healthcare without transparency.

In episode 487, part two, host Stacey Richter interviews Kevin Lyons, a former police detective and current Executive Director of the New Jersey State Police Benevolence Association about the application of detective skills to analyze healthcare spending. Following a discussion on the barriers driving up healthcare costs in part one, Lyons delves into techniques such as statement analysis and facial recognition to identify deceit and uncover where healthcare dollars are going. Lyons emphasizes the need for preparation, persistent questioning, and the importance of following the money, thereby encouraging a fearless approach to advocating for transparency and better healthcare management. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP487Part2 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:25 Recap of Part One: Barriers to Reducing Healthcare Costs 03:01 Introducing Kevin Lyons: Detective Skills in Healthcare 03:52 Detective Techniques Applied to Healthcare 06:41 Challenges and Solutions in Healthcare Transparency 12:15 Final Thoughts and Acknowledgements 13:10 Closing Remarks and Podcast Information

In Episode 487 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Kevin Lyons, a former police detective and current executive director at the New Jersey State Police Benevolence Association. They explore, in this two part episode, the significant challenges public sector employees face in obtaining cost-effective health benefits. The discussion highlights key issues, including the influence of industry profit motives, governmental hiring practices, and media sponsorship biases. Lyons shares insights on the rapidly escalating costs of healthcare for state workers, with specific examples from New Jersey, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions and improved legislative action. The conversation sets the stage for a subsequent episode where Lyons will delve deeper into applying detective skills to uncover financial trails and propose effective changes. Tune in next week for part 2 when Kevin talks about how he pulls out his notebook and uses what he learned as a detective to, first of all, figure out everything probably that we just talked about in this part one. But also, you can't solve for something unless you do what most investigators do, which is follow the money. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction to Episode 487 00:33 Viral Video and Metaphor for Healthcare 04:48 Healthcare Costs and Union Challenges 07:32 Interview with Kevin Lyons Begins 08:17 Why is it important to "dig in" right now on health benefit cost increases? 08:39 Barriers to Affordable Healthcare 10:16 The first barrier to better health benefits: profit defending profit. 10:54 Profit Defense and Political Influence 16:38 Why "throw money at the problem" isn't a real solution. 18:31 The second barrier: why a lack of employed experts costs more money. 18:59 Government Inefficiencies and Conflicts of Interest 25:58 The third barrier: media sponsorship from incumbents prevents change. 26:19 Media Influence and Public Perception 28:55 EP483 (Part 1 and Part 2) with Jonathan Baran. 30:23 Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

In this episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter sits down with Dr. Stan Schwartz, co-founder of ZERO.health, to explore the practical realities and benefits of direct contracting in healthcare. Dr. Schwartz shares his journey from traditional healthcare to pioneering bundled payments and direct contracts, offering actionable insights for employers, providers, and anyone interested in making healthcare more affordable and predictable. The conversation covers the challenges of claims, cost variability, operationalizing direct contracts, and the impact on both patients and providers. Discover how employers and providers can use bundled payments to cut costs, simplify administration, and deliver $0 out-of-pocket care for patients. It was an honor to get Dr. Schwartz on the pod, and we are doubly thankful because he stepped up and offered to help support Relentless Health Value financially as well as spending his time with me and you. So, thanks to everyone over at ZERO.health for being part of the kind of folks who support shows like this one. Dr. Stan Schwartz is co-founder over at ZERO.health. ZERO gets members access to high-quality providers for $0 out of pocket, leveraging bundled payments and direct contracting. This episode, as I just said, is sponsored by ZERO.health, with an assist from Aventria Health Group. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes 🔗 Zero.Health https://zero.health.com ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 07:59 How did ZERO.health start? 10:38 EP480 with Kimberly Carleson. 11:04 Why does the emotional energy behind understanding how the problem of healthcare affects individuals matter in changing healthcare? 12:45 "If you can schedule it, you can put a price on it." 15:32 EP420 with Ge Bai, PhD, CPA. 16:38 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 18:21 How do employers ensure that patients and clinicians are coordinated and on board with direct contracting within their health plans? 20:26 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 22:52 Why is it important that this direct contracting system isn't mandatory for health plan members? 24:50 How does direct contracting affect excessive utilization? 26:41 EP477 (Through Line Show) with Stacey. 27:29 Why is it important that your plan benefits benefit health? 29:39 Why is it important to educate not only members but also providers who agree to participate in the program? 31:06 "It's all about simplicity." 33:11 How do you ensure plan members use the service after it is installed? Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Cristin Dickerson, Elizabeth Mitchell (Take Two: EP436), Dave Chase, Jonathan Baran (Part 2), Jonathan Baran (Part 1), Jonathan Baran (Bonus Episode), Dr Stan Schwartz (Summer Shorts), Preston Alexander, Dr Tom X Lee (Take Two: EP445), Dr Tom X Lee (Bonus Episode), Dr Benjamin Schwartz, Dr John Lee (Take Two: EP438)

In episode 485, Stacey Richter interviews Dr. Cristin Dickerson on the topic of direct contracting for imaging services. They discuss the high costs of imaging, which can account for 6-11% of a plan sponsor's healthcare spend. The episode covers the potential for significant cost savings and improved patient access through direct contracting, bypassing traditional TPAs that may have conflicts of interest or contractual constraints. Dr. Dickerson, who is the founding partner of Green Imaging, explains how her organization has successfully implemented direct contracting, providing affordable and high-quality imaging services nationwide. They also address common barriers such as complexity in coding and payment processes, the reluctance of TPAs, and the habitual referral to 'down the hall' services. The conversation highlights the importance of price transparency, patient education, and how Green Imaging supports plan sponsors in navigating these challenges. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP486 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:31 The Case for Direct Contracting in Imaging 01:43 Real-World Examples and Challenges 04:47 The Importance of Data and Transparency 08:49 Interview with Dr. Kristen Dickerson 12:39 Barriers to Direct Contracting 24:05 Overcoming Barriers and Final Thoughts 33:22 Conclusion and Contact Information

Exploring TPA and Health Plan Inertia with Elizabeth Mitchell: What Plan Sponsors Need to Know. In this Take 2 of episode 436 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Elizabeth Mitchell, President and CEO of the Purchaser Business Group on Health, about the challenges third-party administrators (TPAs) face, the issues around hidden fees, and the problems with health plan inertia. They discuss how self-insured employers can find reliable TPA partners, the impact of anti-competitive contracts, and the importance of transparency in healthcare procurement. Mitchell emphasizes the need for direct contracting between employers and providers to reduce costs and improve quality. The episode covers the implications of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, the role of brokers, and how employers can achieve better value for their healthcare spend. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP436-Take2 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:06 What is the overarching context for health plans in healthcare purchasing? 11:31 Why is it important to reestablish a connection between the people paying for care and people providing care? 13:47 What are the needs of a self-insured employer when managing employee benefits? 19:00 Is it doable for employers to set their own contracts? 21:24 Is transparency presumed? 22:39 Will the new transparency upon us actually expose wasted expense? 24:23 EP408 with Chris Deacon. 25:58 "This is not about individual bad actors. … The systems … that is not aligned." 27:39 Are there providers who want to work directly with employers? 30:53 Why is it important that incentives need to be aligned? 32:42 EP427 with Rik Renard. 33:51 What's missing from the conversation on changing health plans?

In Episode 484 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter talks with Dave Chase from Health Rosetta about the three most pressing questions faced by self-insured employers today. The discussion covers how to verify if a benefits advisor truly protects employer interests, avoiding personal liability when third-party administrator contracts have hidden conflicts, and identifying if employers are being systematically overcharged on pharmacy costs despite PBM guarantees. The episode emphasizes the importance of accessing comprehensive data to identify conflicts and transparency in reporting, and it highlights open source resources available to create high-performance health plans. The conversation also mentions noteworthy related episodes and cases to provide further context and insights. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 06:36 What questions does a plan sponsor need to ask their consultant, EBC, or broker to ensure they are protecting the interest of the plan sponsor? 07:59 EP478 with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire. 08:49 EP453 with Claire Brockbank. 09:51 EP433 with Justin Leader. 09:53 EP436 with Elizabeth Mitchell. 11:03 How can plan sponsors avoid personal liability when their TPA has hidden conflicts of interest? 11:40 Tiara Yachts v. Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan lawsuit. 13:48 EP483 (Part 1) with Jonathan Baran. 14:18 EP457 with Cynthia Fisher. 16:18 The Marshall-Hickenlooper bill called the Price Tags Act. 16:50 Summer Short with Elizabeth Mitchell. 17:36 How do plan sponsors figure out if they are being overcharged for pharmacy benefits? 18:09 EP365 with Scott Haas. 20:18 EP397 with Paul Holmes. 20:22 EP465 with Chris Crawford. 20:37 EP429 with Luke Slindee, PharmD. 22:56 EP476 with Ann Lewandowski. 28:38 Where to find open-source resources to help guide plan sponsors with making better health plan decisions. 29:47 How the open-source trend is growing for health transparency. 30:48 What to look forward to at RosettaFest.

In the second part of this conversation with Jonathan Baran, CEO of Self Fund Health, the focus is on reversing the negative cycle of skyrocketing healthcare costs by shifting from buying discounts to investing in primary care and better benefit designs. The discussion highlights the current issues with the healthcare flywheel, driven by employers buying discounts, and offers solutions such as investing in direct primary care, incentivizing proper healthcare utilization, and improving patient navigation. The conversation also explores the potential for direct contracting between employers and health systems, aiming for a paradigm shift where employers, brokers, and health plans work collaboratively to improve member health and reduce costs. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 05:23 Where to start in reversing the flywheel. 06:57 Why investing in primary care is pivotal to containing healthcare costs. 10:02 EP453 with Claire Brockbank. 10:04 EP452 with Cora Opsahl. 10:07 EP457 with Cynthia Fisher. 10:12 EP365 with Scott Haas. 10:13 EP465 with Chris Crawford. 10:14 EP475 with Peter Hayes. 11:11 EP468 with Matt McQuide. 11:13 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 12:14 "The most expensive thing in healthcare is the pen of the primary care doctor." 13:04 How the role of the broker has to fundamentally change. 16:16 What will the single most challenging aspect of this restructuring become? 20:20 How self-funded employers can be amazing customers in containing the rising cost flywheel in healthcare. 22:56 How do EHRs and other medical record systems play into reversing the flywheel of rising healthcare costs? 23:57 Ramy Khalil, MD's post on interoperability. 24:59 Why is it important for employers to drive volume differently? 25:38 How Self Fund Health is helping in this regard.

In this episode Stacey Richter speaks with Jonathan Baran, CEO of Self Fund Health in a detailed exploration of what they term the 'Flywheel Downward Spiral' of American healthcare costs. The conversation delves into how electronic health records (EHR) and the incentives driving insurers, brokers, and hospital systems contribute to consistently rising healthcare premiums. Key points include how insurers profit from high premiums, the misleading marketing focus on discounts rather than actual costs, and the role of EHR systems in maximizing hospital profits rather than improving patient care. The episode sets the stage for a subsequent discussion on reversing these trends, aiming to align healthcare outcomes with cost reductions. Self Fund Health, I am so pleased to tell you, as I am always so pleased to tell you, did make such a kind offer to help out Relentless Health Value financially. You and the tribe here are really, really great folks who I truly appreciate. Please support Self Fund Health if you are in Wisconsin. This episode is sponsored by Self Fund Health. === LINKS === 🔗 Self Fund Health: https://selffundhealth.com 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:46 Entering the health system "flywheel" at the renewal phase. 09:46 What goes on in the renewal season that contributes to the health system "flywheel"? 12:28 Why is the standard 9% increase in healthcare costs during renewal season actually problematic? 13:22 How does the purchase of discounts contribute to the skyrocketing cost of healthcare and distract from discussing the actually underlying cost of healthcare? 16:07 EP465 with Chris Crawford. 17:01 Why do employers need to learn to buy healthcare and not insurance? 20:32 Rina Tikia's post on self-funded plans. 23:18 Why are hospital executives incentivized to buy and own all of the primary care in a market? 26:35 How big electronic medical record systems play into this increase in healthcare costs. 28:27 Acquired podcast on one EHR system. 31:09 What needs to happen to reverse this flywheel of increasing healthcare costs?

In this bonus clip from Episode 483 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter discusses the efforts of individuals working within large healthcare organizations to improve patient outcomes despite systemic challenges. Guest Jonathan Baran, co-founder and CEO of Self Fund Health, highlights how incentives within the healthcare system drive behaviors that often conflict with patient and member interests. The discussion emphasizes the importance of not generalizing the intentions of all employees based on organizational actions and encourages a deeper understanding of underlying incentive structures to foster meaningful changes. Self Fund Health, I am so pleased to tell you, as I am always so pleased to tell you, did make such a kind offer to help out Relentless Health Value financially. You and the tribe here are really, really great folks who I truly appreciate. Please support Self Fund Health if you are in Wisconsin. This episode is sponsored by Self Fund Health. === LINKS === 🔗 Self Fund Health: https://selffundhealth.com 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP483-BONUS ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 03:11 A brief background on Jonathan and Self Fund Health. 04:24 Why is it imperative that individuals stop identifying wholly with the organization that they work with? 05:48 Why is it important to be direct and call out the behavior without calling out the individual? 07:14 EP483 (Part 1) with Jonathan Baran.

In this episode, Stacey Richter talks with Dr. Stan Schwartz, co-founder of ZERO.health about the tension between mission-driven healthcare and financial incentives within the healthcare system. Highlighting examples like the Comprehensive Primary Care Initiative and other advanced primary care efforts, Schwartz shares insights on how health system economics, particularly the reliance on emergency room admissions, often undermine initiatives aimed at reducing costs and improving patient outcomes. The discussion delves into the role of employer-sponsored health plans as potential change agents in the healthcare system, given their significant influence over commercially insured patients, who are highly attractive to providers. Dr. Schwartz underscores the importance of aligned financial incentives and collective action among employers to drive meaningful change in healthcare. If you would like to get a copy of the mentinoed personal integrity and "are you in healthcare for the right reasons" policy called the Guiding Principles Policy that Doug Geinzer and Amy Mecham from High Performance Providers put together.please either check your inbox for the newsletter this week that you just got when this show went live and find the link to download or sign up for the newsletter and I will include it again next week on Thursday. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/SUMS11 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:11 What was Dr. Schwartz's "Pelican Brief" moment? 09:09 How Dr. Schwartz's advanced primary care structure and health information exchange beat out competing states for CMMI funding. 12:53 What did "good" look like with this advanced primary care program? 15:06 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 15:42 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 16:57 What got Dr. Schwartz interested in employer-sponsored healthcare? 18:46 EP419 with Andreas Mang. 18:48 EP453 with Claire Brockbank. 18:50 EP452 with Cora Opsahl.

In this episode, Stacey Richter discusses 'Three Surprising Ways Carriers Make Lots of Money' with Preston Alexander. The episode highlights how carriers leverage financial strategies—like using premium dollars as float, intracompany eliminations, and upcoding in Medicare Advantage—to enhance their profits. The discussion emphasizes the importance for plan sponsors and policymakers to understand these tactics to better manage healthcare costs. Alexander advises collaborating with unbiased consultants who are experts in health plan design to navigate these complex financial dynamics effectively. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP482 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:29 What is float, and why is it a surprising way that carriers make money? 14:01 Summer Shorts on pharma rebates with Ann Lewandowski. 14:41 Why carriers really do denials and delays of payouts. 17:34 What are intercompany eliminations, and how do they make carriers more money? 22:21 How do carrier-owned pharmacies play into this? 23:19 How are carriers creating profit off of Medicare Advantage and Medicaid Advantage markets? 27:18 How the fee-for-service price increases affect Medicare prices. 28:12 Why aren't large insurance carriers motivated to make costs go down? 32:42 What is a potential way forward to fix the rising cost of healthcare? 33:36 As a plan sponsor, how do you address carriers making profit on your float? 35:07 EP478 with Andreas Mang and Jon Camire. 36:34 "Our economy's not gonna survive healthcare."

In this second take on episode host Stacey Richter speaks with Dr. Tom Lee, founder of One Medical and Galileo. The discussion centers on the survival of independent primary care practices in the current healthcare economy, the associated challenges, and the paradox of primary care. Topics include reducing ER visits, managing downstream specialty spend, and the imbalance between CMS and commercial carrier payments to primary care practices. Dr. Lee highlights the importance of 'enlightened leadership' and a 'value-focused mindset' in balancing efficient service operations with quality care. He also touches on the complexities of integrating technology and human-centered care, the importance of operational efficiency, and the challenges posed by current reimbursement models. For a bonus sidebar conversation with Dr. Lee, click here. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/TakeTwo-EP445 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth10:30 What is the paradox of primary care? 12:47 Why is it hard to run an independent primary care practice? 13:29 What are the barriers to running an independent primary care practice? 14:09 Can you have fee for service and value? 15:53 "Value is more about a mindset." 16:49 What hidden waste is there in a primary care practice? 18:36 What do you need to have a value-focused mindset? 20:41 Why does access precede quality? 22:40 What are the nuances of a service business that make them challenging for managers? 23:27 How do you find the balance between fee for service and value? 30:07 EP438 with John Lee, MD. 31:04 How can you invest in quality without a value-based contract? 33:09 How do you address the trade-off between fee-for-service finances and investing in value-based care? 34:26 Where is the "productive middle"? 35:18 Dr. Tom Lee's message to payers. 38:45 Dr. Tom Lee's message for policymakers.

This short bonus episode is a side bar conversation with Dr. Tom Lee discussing why retail clinics are struggling with Dr. Tom Lee. They explore the shortcomings of retail clinics in providing longitudinal primary care, despite their convenience for minor urgent care and vaccinations. Dr. Lee emphasizes that true primary care requires consistent, long-term patient relationships and complex management which many retail clinics fail to deliver. They also discuss the economic challenges of running such clinics and the importance of defining primary care's value proposition correctly. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/Bonus445 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 01:01 Why have retail clinics failed in being longitudinal primary care destinations? 01:32 Why access is an important factor, but not the only one. 02:10 Access vs. longitudinal care. 02:47 The challenges of operating a service operation within primary care. 03:47 What is a longitudinal primary care destination and why does it matter? 04:15 How is primary care not delivering on its promise? 04:27 How is the "promise of primary care" different than an urgent care or MinuteClinic? Recent past interviews: Click a guest's name for their latest RHV episode! Dr Benjamin Schwartz, Dr John Lee (Take Two: EP438), Kimberly Carleson, Ann Lewandowski (Summer Shorts), Andreas Mang and Jon Camire (EP479), Justin Leader (Take Two: EP433), Andreas Mang and Jon Camire (EP478), Stacey Richter (EP477), Charles Green (Bonus Episode), Ann Lewandowski, Peter Hayes

Balancing Mission and Margin in Healthcare: A Candid Conversation with Dr. Ben Schwartz In this episode, host Stacey Richter engages in a deep dive with Dr. Ben Schwartz to explore the phrase 'No Margin, No Mission' and its practical implications in the healthcare industry. They discuss the complex relationship between profitability and mission-driven care, the challenges of value-based care, and the role of dyad leadership. The episode emphasizes the importance of transparency, regulatory measures, and trust in fostering a balance between mission and margin. Along the way, Dr. Schwartz shares insights from his new role at Commons Clinic and addresses broader systemic issues like regulatory capture and the subjective nature of defining value in healthcare. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:50 Sister Irene Kraus and the origin of no margin, no mission. 10:01 Margin and mission versus profit and profiteering. 12:45 Stacey's manifesto (EP400). 13:01 What is the broad mission within healthcare? 14:12 What is mission drift within healthcare? 15:54 EP474 with Yashaswini Singh, PhD. 17:26 Why do we struggle with balancing margin and mission? 20:47 EP455 with Beau Raymond, MD. 20:52 How does value vary? 23:18 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 23:53 What needs to happen to balance margin with mission? 28:29 Why does everything come down to trust? 28:33 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 30:30 EP419 with Andreas Mang. 32:21 What are the "vectors of change" to create balance between mission and margin? 32:43 EP475 with Peter Hayes.

In this Take Two episode of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter reflects on her conversation with Dr. John Lee to explore the challenging intersection between mission and margin in healthcare. They discuss the nuances of cognitive dissonance faced by healthcare professionals, particularly when organizational priorities conflict with patient care. Dr. Lee shares insights on finding a sense of mission within the constraints of the current healthcare system, emphasizing the importance of incremental improvements, team-based care, and peer support. The conversation also highlights real-world examples of systemic issues and practical advice on how individuals can contribute to meaningful change without feeling demoralized. This episode is part of an ongoing series addressing critical topics in healthcare, and listeners are encouraged to tune in next week for further discussions. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/episodes ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:05 What is cognitive dissonance relative to the healthcare industry? 09:23 What are the systems that start to bear down on individuals within the healthcare system? 10:15 EP391 with Scott Conard, MD. 10:53 EP415 with Rob Andrews. 11:50 EP326 with Rishi Wadhera, MD, MPP. 12:27 "The system has almost gamed them." 15:44 How can alignment still be achieved in the face of cognitive dissonance? 17:12 EP431 with Kenny Cole, MD. 20:43 Why does it take more than one person to solve the dysfunction in the healthcare system? 23:01 What are some little changes that can help change the cognitive dissonance in healthcare? 24:57 Why is a hierarchical healthcare structure not necessarily beneficial? 27:12 The RaDonda Vaught story. 34:30 "Be happy in the small things."

Enhancing Payment Integrity in Health Systems: An In-depth Discussion with Kimberly Carleson. In Episode 481 of Relentless Health Value, host Stacey Richter speaks with Kimberly Carleson, CEO of US Beacon, about payment integrity within health systems. They delve into strategies some hospitals use to maximize revenue without raising rates and discuss the importance of accurate billing. Key takeaways include the high prevalence of billing errors, which can lead to significant overcharges for plan sponsors, often due to documentation gaps and complex coding systems. Kimberly provides actionable advice for both healthcare providers and plan sponsors on how to mitigate billing inaccuracies and enhance transparency. Emphasized points include the necessity of third-party claim audits, understanding legal rights under various acts, and the importance of maintaining clear communication and compliance with legal billing standards. === LINKS === 🔗 Show Notes with all mentioned links: https://cc-lnk.com/EP480 ✉️ Enjoy this podcast? Subscribe to the free weekly newsletter: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🫙 Support the podcast with a small donation to the Tip Jar: https://relentlesshealthvalue.com/join-the-relentless-tribe 🎤 Listen on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feed/id892082003?ls=1 🎤 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/6UjgzI7bScDrWvZEk2f46b 📺 Subscribe to our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@RelentlessHealthValue === CONNECT WITH THE RHV TEAM === ✭ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/relentless-health-value/ ✭ Threads https://www.threads.net/@relentlesshealthvalue/ ✭ Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/relentleshealth.bsky.social ✭ X https://twitter.com/relentleshealth/ 08:36 What's the magnitude of the lack of payment integrity within healthcare? 12:11 EP285 with Dawn Cornelis. 12:46 How is lack of coordination a main culprit of lack of payment integrity? 13:42 How does reading the records reveal whether health plans are being overcharged? 15:43 A real-world example of how reviewing the charges can drastically reduce your healthcare costs. 18:32 Do you have a right to a review of your claim? 19:37 EP370 with Erik Davis and Autumn Yongchu. 22:08 How can contracts contradict what can legally be charged? 23:46 EP472 with Eric Bricker, MD. 25:04 How can hospitals update their billing to have better payment integrity? 28:44 Advice for hospital executives and their finance teams. 29:03 Advice for plan sponsors.