New Podcast Let Us Reason - A Christian/Muslim Dialogue

Today Al Fadi and Michael Jones talk about the mental and the social harm of child marriage. Islam promotes child marriage as we saw in a previous episode. Studies shows the mental harm that it causes from depression, anxiety, phobia, and suicidal thoughts just to name a few. The social harm are death during child birth, cervical cancer, STDs, and being a victim of domestic violence. They conclude that child marriage is to be outlawed if Muslims really care about their daughters. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and his guest speaker Michael Jones of ( Inspiring Philosophy You Tube Channel) talk about why is child marriage allowed and promoted in Islam; 1. It was done by Mohammad who is an example to Muslims when he married Aisha at age six. 2. It is done to protect the parents social status and not the Girl's well being. 3. Muslims also claim that it reduces premarital sex. Yet the physical harm that is caused to the girls is great because of their undeveloped bodies; death and infection are two harms. The united nations classify any girl under 18 as a child. In Chapter 65:4 the Quran promotes child marriage. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi asks the question above. He gives a lot of Bible verses to show that if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life; 1John 5: 12-13 , John 5: 24, Romans 8:16, just to mention a few. And nothing can separate us from God's love or snatch us out of his hands John 10:29, Romans 8:38,39. Our salvation is sure as Christian and the scripture proves it ; not so in the Quran or by Mohammad Sura 46:8-9, Sura 10:94. Not even the Hadith ; Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, book 58, #266 and vol 4, book 51, # 16; Mohammad was not sure of his salvation or the salvation of his family or any Muslim. Al Fadi asks the question ; why would you follow someone who doesn't have an assurance of salvation? and says that Jesus is the way, and the life. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi discusses a quote on his fakebook page Alfadi.cira in a new series "Simple Questions Answered". Today's quote is: If Mohammad was a prophet like Moses, why didn't he observe the Sabbath? Muslims claim that Deuteronomy 18:18 is about Mohammad. Muhammad acknowledged that it was required of him not to transgress the Sabbath in Sura 4: 154. In Numbers 15: 32-36 working on the Sabbath was punishable by death. In Sura 62: 9-11 Muslims should give up trading only when hearing the call to prayer, and not completely stop all trade on Friday which Mohammad claimed to be his Sabbath. Therefore he did not endorse the law of Moses, and in doing so he condemned himself and he is not the prophet like Moses. Jesus on the other hand fulfilled the law of Moses and if we are in Christ we also have fulfilled the law through him and we are not condemned.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Brother Mel continue their talk about the connection between Islam and the Zoroastrian religion of Persia. Today they talk about the myth of the Buraq; which Muslims believe it is a flying horse, which took Mohammad to Jerusalem to Al Aqsa mosque and then to heaven. The origin of the name is Persian which means : A riding animal, a rider or a horse. In Zoroastrianism a demon god rides on a horse. This shows the willingness of Islam to copy other religions. They also touch on the origin of the names Aisha and Fatima. They think that they are Jewish names of two wives of Ishmael according to the Jewish Tergum. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi, Dr Jay, and Brother Mel are starting a new series called Exposing the Myth. In this episode they are talking about how Islam borrowed from the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism. 1.The name of the ZamZam well is zoroastrian in origin. The name Zam is a pagan god which refers to mother nature. 2. The Black stone in al Kaaba is connected to another demon called Afraditi(Venus/ Lucifer). 3. The Jamarat represent Satan. 4. The Sunna/ hadith was written in persian lands. 5. The times of prayer, the washing before prayer, the kibla, and the word Jin were borrowed from Zoroastrianism.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Jay and Al Fadi continue with three more historical problems with the Quran: 1. The Al Aqsa mosque( Sura 17: 1), which Muslims believe that Mohammad ascended into heaven from, was built in 710 AD, and Mohammad died in 632 AD. 2. The chain mail that is mentioned in Sura 24: 10-11 that King David wore around 1000BC ,was not invented until 200 BC. 3. The reference to the crucifixion in Sura 7: 121-124 during the time of Moses and Pharaoh in 1400 BC and Joseph 1800BC (Sura 12 :41). The crucifixion was invented 1300 years later. Yet the Quran denies the crucifixion of Jesus in Sura 4 : 157 ; this is a theological and a historical problem.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Jay and Al Fadi discuss the refutations to Dan Brubaker book: Corrections in Early Quranic Manuscripts. one of the refutations is by Hythem Sidky who writes a book responding to Dan's book. Dr Jay and Al Fadi also talk about the historical problems of the Quran, they give an example from Sura 20 : 85-87,95-97, where it talks about a Samaritan who lived in the time of Moses and helped the Israelites build the golden calf. The problem with that story is the time period ; Moses lived in 1400 BC and the Samaritan did not exist until 722BC. In conclusion; having even one mistake in the Quran proves that is not divinely preserved. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue their discussion about the interview that Muhammad Hijab had with Dr Yasi Qadi about the Quran preservation. Al and Dr Jay mention that most Muslims especially in the East do not cross the line of questioning the Quran. Dr Yasir Qadi had a crisis of faith "knowledge" when he went to Yale university. The interview caused a lot of Muslims to doubt and leave Islam. They also talked about Dr Brubaker's work on the early Quranic manuscript in his book" Corrections in Early Quranic Manuscripts" . In his work Dr Brubaker researched and found over 800 - 4,000 differences between the Hafs Quran of today and the early manuscripts. These corrections was made to fit the Hafs Quran of today. This research had a very damaging result to the belief that the Quran is perfectly preserved.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith listen to a clip of a major interview of Dr Yasir Qadi by Mohammad Hijab on the topic of the preservation of the Quran. In this interview Dr Yasi Qadi admits it is a hard subject to discuss and that it should not be a public discussion. He also says that it is enough to believe it and not question it. The original interview was done on 6/8/2020. This interview was very damaging to the Standard Islamic Narrative, and in it Dr Yasir Qadi admits that the S.I.N. has holes in it and it does not answer all the questions.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Continuing last week's discussion, Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith say that Ibn Mujaahed chose the seven Kira'at in the tenth century. The criteria for choosing them was popularity. Hafs differ from the other Kira'at by 93 thousand dots and vowels. Therefore the preservation claim does not stand the test. They give several examples between the Hafs and Warsh: 1. Sura 2:184 ; Al miskeen and Al masaakeen; the first is singular noun and the second is the plural form of the noun. 2. Sura 3:146; the words kaatala (fought) and kutila (killed). These differences have huge theological and practice implications. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Jay and Al Fadi discuss the multiple different Arabic Qurans that a Turkish sister called Hattun found in different Arabic countries starting in 2016. Dr Jay and Hattun took the Qurans to speakers corner in England where they showed them to Muslims who were shocked to hear and see that, because they have been told by their leaders that the Quran has been perfectly preserved to the letter and the dot. The Muslim response was that these are different readings for different dialects. There is five thousand differences between the two major versions which are called the Hafs and the Warsh alone. These differences do not only change the doctrine and the practice, but also the theology. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue there discussion from Shoemaker's book Creating the Quran. They name some scholars including Montgomery, Patricia Corona and others who point out that Mecca was insignificant and Medina (Yathrib was a small date oasis with few hundred people living there, and there is no mention of Jews living there as the S.I.N. mentions. They also say that most scholars conclude that the Quran and Islam is not from central Hijaz but from farther north.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue there review of Shoemaker book; creating the Quran. Today they focus on where was the origin of the Quran. They say that there was some rock inscription in Northern Arabian not in the Hijaz. Some of the reasons why the inscription doesn't fit the Hijazi dialect of central Arabia are three distinctive features: 1. The distinctive form of the relative pronoun. 2. The distinctive form of the distal demonstrative . 3. the use of the verbal constructive of ya aleph. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue there discussion from Shoemaker's book Creating the Quran. They name some scholars including Montgomery, Patricia Corona and others who point out that Mecca was insignificant and Medina (Yathrib was a small date oasis with few hundred people living there, and there is no mention of Jews living there as the S.I.N. mentions. They also say that most scholars conclude that the Quran and Islam is not from central Hijaz but from farther north.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue there review of Shoemaker book; creating the Quran. Today they focus on where was the origin of the Quran. They say that there was some rock inscription in Northern Arabian not in the Hijaz. Some of the reasons why the inscription doesn't fit the Hijazi dialect of central Arabia are three distinctive features: 1. The distinctive form of the relative pronoun. 2. The distinctive form of the distal demonstrative . 3. the use of the verbal constructive of ya aleph. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Muslims claim that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia, that Mohammad was born there, and that he also received his revelation of the Quran there. If that is true where is Mecca? Steven Shoemaker in his book Creating the Quran on page114 mentions that there is no mention of a mecca in any of the great civilizations of the time . Not only that,but another scholar; Patricia Corona said that there were no trade roues going through Mecca on land nor by the coast of the Red Sea bordering Mecca. Many scholars say that Islam started way north of Mecca and that most Muslim scholars were Persians. So Shoemaker concludes that Mecca was further north. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This manuscript was found in Damascus and was moved to Germany. It looks a lot like the upper layer of the Sana manuscript. There are three reasons why this manuscript is 8th century and not 7th century: 1. The dots , the circles ,and the verse markings suggests that the text is a later text. 2. . The page layout and illuminations parallels the 8th century manuscripts. 3. The ornamentations suggests Abd Al Malik and Al Hajjag new distinctive Islamic Arabic manuscripts. The question is if this text came from Mecca and Medina, what was happening there? Scholars agree that in the 7th century those two cities where very isolated and insignificant. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Jay and Al Fadi continue the comparison between the upper and the lower layers of the Sana manuscripts of the Quran with the 1924 Hafs edition of the Quran. They point out differences that changes the meaning of the text; for example Sura 9: 9 in the lower layer of the manuscripts states" the way of Allah while the Hafs Quran of 1924 says 'His way". Another difference in the upper layer as an example is Sura 7: 76 "you directed vs he directed" They point out that most of the differences have to do with the diacritical marking which did not exist until the 8th century. Even with the upper layer of the manuscripts there was no standardized Quran yet. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Jay Smith discusses the book that Dr Asma Hilali wrote on the Sana Palimpsest manuscripts. He talks about the conclusions that she came up with by comparing it to todays Hafs Quran; she says that there are seventy variants in sixty three verses. She also believes that it is a student text. Jay says that that shuts down the idea of the preservation of the Quran which both Muslim and the Quran claim ( ie Sura 85: 21,22). Then Jay and Al discuss some of the differences as examples. Then they ask the question : Is the Quran perfectly preserved?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Sana manuscripts is a palimpsest manuscripts ; which means that there is a lower and upper layers of writing . Scholars say that the two writings are late seventh and early eighth century respectively. They think that it is two versions of the Quran; the first is a pre- standard Quran which was erased and rewritten as the canonical version. On comparing the two writing , it was found that there are seventy variants between the two. Dr Jay says that the lower text was erased because it needed to be updated. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Sana'a manuscript was discovered in Yemen in 1975, it is very old with no dots and vowels. It is a palimpsest (It has two layers of writings). It had late 7th to 8th century scripts. It was carbon tested at the university of Arizona in 2007, and was dated to mid 7th century. The same segment was taken to four Europeans labs and they did not agree with the Arizona dating. Shoemaker concludes that there is a problem with the carbon dating because the process dates the skin of the animal not the time the writing was written.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss the challenges of carbon dating of manuscripts. They say that carbon dating gives the age of the material that is written on not the ink. There is no method found that dates ink because the way ink is mixed to make colors. Animal skin is costly and it takes time to cure. Shoemaker argues that carbon dating is not entirely accurate . That is why scholars had to look at the paleography of the writing which help determine the style of writing and in turn the time it was written. Shoemaker conclude that the carbon dating supports the Abd Al Malik/ Al Hajaj timing. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue to talk about three more major qur'anic manuscripts :4. The BNF/ Petropolitanus manuscripts, and it has three fragments, the largest fragment is 26% of the Quran of today (Hafs). 5. Al Husseini manuscripts in Egypt. It is very large, and has a lot of taping over words. 6. The Sana manuscripts. It is most recent discovery, 1975 in Yemen. In conclusion;the six major manuscripts are: Not from the 7th century, none of them are complete, they don't agree with each other or with the1924 Hafs Quran of today, and all have a lot of variants. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today Al Fadi and Dr Jay talk about three Quranic manuscripts: 1. The Topkapi Manuscripts: it is kept in the Topkapi palace museum in Istanbul, Turkey. It is dated to early to mid 8th century due to the presence of vowels and dots. It is not the private copy of Utthman or one of the copies that he sent to various centers. 2. The Samarkand Manuscript, found in Tashkent, Uzbekistan; it is not a complete manuscript(43 Soras only). It is lazy man manuscript, and was written by scribes who didn't know Arabic . 3. Al Ma'il (slanted) Manuscripts, found in the British museum, and has no vowels or dots which makes it an earlier manuscripts. It is dated to early 8th century.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue discussing Shoemaker's book; Creating the Quran. Today they are wondering what happened to the Al Hajjaj- Abd Al Malik paradigm. They are not convinced with Shoemaker's answer, but they think it is a political reason since Abd Al Malik is an Umayyad , and the Abbasid came after them. They continue to talk about another scholar Robert Hoyland who said that none of the previous religions in the seventh century has heard of a book called the Quran. Then they conclude that the strongest arguments for a later Quran is the manuscripts evidence which they are going to discuss in details in later episodes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue to discuss the book creating the Quran. Today the focus on 1. The dialogue of Abraham of Tiberias, a Christian, with Amir Abdul Al Rahman Al Hashemi, in Jerusalem in the 9th century, during the Abbasid period,mentioning that Al Hajjaj produced the final authoritative version of the Quran. 2. The Apology of Al Kindy, is another Christin work written during the 9th century that talks about Al Hajaj; under Abd Al Malik; made a substantial changes to the Quran. Abd Al Malik was an Umayyad Caliph during the 8th century who built the Dome of the Rock and Arabized the Quran . See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss the book written by Daniel Janosik, John of Damascus; The First Apologists to the Muslims. John of Damascus is a Christian monk and apologist whose father served in the Umayyad Caliphate in Damascus. John does not use the word Islam, but instead he calls it the heresy of the Ishmaelites. Al and Jay also talk about Emperor Leo the third correspondent letters with Omar the Second. Both John and Leo indicate that the Quran we have today is different than the Quran in the 7th and 8th centuries.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This paradigm focuses on the Umayyad caliphate in particular Abd Al- Malik bin Marwan and his governor Al Hajjaj. Abd Al Malik built the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and was anti trinitarian. He attacked the trinity, the divinity and the sonship of Christ. Al Hajjaj formed a committee to produce a new collection of the Quran. Dr Jay Smith gives the 12 reasons from Shoemaker's book; creating the Quran, why he believes that a later Quranic creation of the Quran is done by Abd Al Malik and Al Hajjaj. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Noldeke/Schwallian Paradime states that the Uthmanic Quran is the standard Quran and does not question it . In this episode Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith discuss some scholars that say otherwise. They are discussing Steven Shoemaker book; Creating the Quran. They conclude that the Quran ascribed to Uthuman was really established by Abd Al Malik which they will discuss in a coming episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi Dr Jay discuss what the two German scholars say about the Quran. Noldeke and Schwallie say that the Quran was written in 652 AD in its entirety of 114 Suras, and it should not be criticized. Al Fadi and Dr Jay going back to Shoemaker's book; creating the Quran discuss ten different possibilities of who really wrote the Uthmanic Quran. Abu Bakir, Omar, Aisha, just to name a few. Al Fadi and Dr jay make a plea to Muslim to check their claims of the perfect preservation of the Quran in light of what Shoemaker says for the purpose of finding the truth. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay Smith discuss what the Muslim leaders of early centuries of Islam and what Muslim leaders of today say about the Preservation of the Quran. Today's leaders including Shabir Ali, Abdula Yusef Ali, and Yasir Qadi, to name a few, claim the perfect preservation of the Quran; They say that today's Quran is the same exact Quran of Othman days to the letter. Going back to the first centuries of Islam ; Muslims did not claim that at all; in fact substitution (abrogation) was normal. Some of the early leaders that said that are Bukhari, Ibn Abi Dawood, Aisha, just to name a few.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr. Jay raise more questions about the origin of the Quran which create more problems about the Quran: 6. How can you have a dialectic problem in the mid 7th century unless you have a written text? 7.Why did Othman burn the other copies? 8. How can you burn a dialect? 9. If the Quran that Othman asked Zaid ibn Thabit to write in the Qurashi dialect was the second compilation of the Quran, why do we have 37 different Qurans today? They conclude that tradition says that Othman sent five copies to five cities/provinces, yet Muslims can not come with a manuscript from the five copies of the seventh century Quran(Othman's).See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss what Sahih Al Bukhari say in volume 6, Hadith # 109, page509-510. They ask the following questions: Why would God chose a language (Arabic) that can not accommodate the Quran(no vowels or dots)? Why did God choose a man who couldn't read or write? If Mohammad was illiterate, he had 22 years to learn to read and write. Why didn't Abu Baker make more copies of the Quran? Was the Quran written down before Othman?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay continue their discussion on Shoemaker book; the creating of the Quran. While Wilfred Smith took the side of the religious person, the naturalistic approach takes the opposite side. Shoemaker says that you need to not take either extreme by studying the impact on the believer and study the history. Shoemaker points out 5 important approaches that Bruce Lincoln points out: 1.Who is the author of the text, his audience, context, and agenda? 2. Since reverence is religious, scholarly approach is more important. 3. Permit criticism but not the other( W. Smith said: Criticize Christianity but not Islam). 4. Assuming all cultures are stable, but the reality is not. 5. Be ware of the scholars informance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay continue their discussion on Shoemaker book; the creating of the Quran. While Wilfred Smith took the side of the religious person, the naturalistic approach takes the opposite side. Shoemaker says that you need to not take either extreme by studying the impact on the believer and study the history. Shoemaker points out 5 important approaches that Bruce Lincoln points out: 1.Who is the author of the text, his audience, context, and agenda? 2. Since reverence is religious, scholarly approach is more important. 3. Permit criticism but not the other( W. Smith said: Criticize Christianity but not Islam). 4. Assuming all cultures are stable, but the reality is not. 5. Be ware of the scholars informance. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr, Jay Smith continue their discussion of Shoemaker book creating the Quran. Today they talk about how this censorship affected the department of defense. After world war two the west came up with a policy of not accepting any criticism of Islam . Westerners and western academic Islamic scholars came up with a form of Islam to agree with western values. This form of Islam is not true to the historical Islam. Shoemaker"s solution to this problem is to do an accurate historical criticism of Islam.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue their discussion from last time on Shoemaker book Creating the Quran. This time they reveal the names of two scholars that were responsible for censoring what can be said about the Quran and Islam: 1. Wilfred Cantrell Smith; he gave the approach of how scholars should deal with Islamic material. He concluded that if any valid understanding of the Quran, one must approach the text as a believing Muslim would, and seek to understand it on that basis. 2. Mircea Eliade from the university of Chicago. These two scholars concluded that any study of Islam must be based on personal experience of Muslims. In other words Muslims have to give their stamp of approval. The problem with this approach is that it is not a true scholarly approach.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith are starting a new series based on a new book by Stephen Shoemaker called Creating the Quran. Stephen says that Mohammad is the author of the Quran , and he is going against mainstream academics. He says that we should not study the Quran according to later tradition ,but use standard tools of historical criticism that was used on other sacred scripture writings; ie The Bible. There is a fear that critics and scholars have in stating their finding about the Quran . Shoemaker tells the name of the man behind the censorship. Al and jay will reveal it on the next episode. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi shares his personal good news of his son getting married and a new grandchild is born . A bad news of losing his nephew. And a challenging news of his many back surgeries. On the ministry level, the Lord showed up in mighty way: The production of many videos: A. David Wood on the unholy character of Mohammad. B. Historical criticism of Islam on art prohibition c. Sam Shamoun on the deity of Christ in the Quran. D. Dr Jay Smith on the book, the man , and the place. These are few example. You can watch all these videos on Cira international You-Tube. The views for these videos has reached over 13 million people. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay use the book that Dr Daniel Brubaker has done on the preservation of the Quran. They point out the different variants in the Qur'anic manuscripts that has been inserted, erased, covered and taped. They conclude that the process of collecting the Quran was not standardized. What is left behind after all the editing is the Hafs version of the Quran today. Al and Jay also talk about the 63 fragment of manuscripts that Muslims say it make up 97% of the Quran of the first century of Islam. Al and Jay say that 63 fragments do not comprise a complete Quran. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay talk about the discovery of the 33 verses from chapters 18-20 of the Quran which when it was discovered in 2015, Muslims thought that they found the Quran from the time of Muhammad. These folios consist of three stories that existed before Islam and the Quran that was modified to take out the references to Jesus as God and replaced with Jesus as a prophet. Al and Jay also talk about the Quran's Kiraat (variant readings). Jay talks about Hatun Tash who discovered the many different copies of the Quran that does not match, and that was against what Muslims claim about the preservation of the Quran.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi shares some of the reasons why we celebrate Christmas: 1. It is a reminder of the promise God made to Adam and Eve after the fall. 2. Because of God's love for us He gave us the greatest gift ever(Jesus) 3. We have to accept the gift of Jesus by faith. 4. By believing in Jesus as the savior we go to heaven. 5. By believing we have a direct communication with God. 6. God became a man and dwelt amongst us. 7. This is the greatest gift to mankind. God loved us while we were still sinners, and by believing in the gift and accepting it we have eternal life.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Quran was written in 652 AD, in the Quraishi dialect by Zaid ibn Thabit , Mohammad's secretary, After Mohammad's death. There were no dots or other marks in that .Muslims say that Mohammad was given the Quran in 7 different Kira'at /dialects by Gabriel. Some of the Qurans are from Syria and Iraq and they all contain different numbers of Suras. Looking at different manuscripts Jay and Ali and others conclude that none are from the 7th century, they had many variants that does not agree with the Hafs Quran, the most used version . The Question remains ; Where is the original Quran? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay discuss the reasons that the Dome of the Rock debunk the S.I.N. According to the S.I.N. Mohammad was taken to the rock where he was ascended into heaven and came back in the year 621. First the Dome of the Rock does not have a qibla, but the two mosques next to it do and are facing Petra. They mention that the Dome of the Rock we have today was not the one built by Abd Al Malik. The building itself was destroyed and rebuilt eleven times. In the second part of the episode they talk about the claim of preservation of the Quran by the Muslims. Jay says that the complete copy of the Quran was produced during Uthman the Calif . All Muslims had to do to back up the claim is to produce a copy of the manuscript from the time of Uthman and have them compare it with a Quran copy of today to see if it is a perfect match.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay say that there were no coins minted during the time of Mohammad 620- 660 AD in Mecca. The coins found in that time period had Byzantian crosses or Zoroastrian temples on them and they were found in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. In 680 AD when Abd Al- Malik defeats the Byzantian , he introduces the Shahadah. He was an anti trinitarian Christian. Mohammad's name was introduced on the coins during Abd- Al Malik reign in 710 AD. The rock inscription were found in the 7th century, way north of Mecca between 640-740 AD. . None of the inscription was found in Mecca or Medina as the S.I.N. claims.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this episode of Let Us Reason, Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith continue their discussion on the rest of the stages of Hajj or the pilgrimage to Mecca. They notice the progression of the narrative with time. For example they point out that before 1980 there was only one pillar to throw rocks at and now they have three. Another rock they point to is the black stone which they say it turned black from white because it takes away the sins of the people. And finally they conclude the discussion about Mecca, is it really what we thought it is? Mecca as a city today was not mentioned in history until 741 A.D.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al and Jay ask the question; does any of the empires surrounding Mecca ever heard of it or had any trade reference to Mecca? The answer is none, no surrounding empires; for example the Sabean, the Nabatean, the Assyrian, the Babylonian or even the Romans ever referenced Mecca. They also discuss some of the five stages of the Haj all of which involve stones: 1. The Ka'ba(cube), 2. Al Safa and Marwah (the S.I.N say that they are two mountains). 3. The Jamarat . They discuss if these rituals are purely Islamic or were they borrowed from Judaism. The discussion will resume next time.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay continue the discussion from last time about the Red Sea route through Mecca . Dr Patricia Crone debunked the land route theory and said that the route was through the Eastern side of the Red Sea coast. But history proves that the ships in the 2nd and 3rd century BC took the west coast of the red sea because of the five coastal cities that existed on the coast of Eretria, Sudan And Egypt. Also History shows that Jeddah was provided as a sea port to provide water for Mecca and both cities did not exist until the 8th century AD. Without Mecca there is no seventh century Islam( S.I.N.). See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Al Fadi and Dr Jay Smith say that Mohammad received a revelation to change the direction of the qiblas from Jerusalem to Al Masjed Al Haram (Al Kaaba) in the year 624 AD. They use Dan Gibson's research and conclude that the direction of the Qiblas in mosques between 624-706 AD were facing Petra.- The first mosque with the qibla facing Mecca was in 724 AD. This is a bad evidence for the S.I.N. They also discuss the trade route theory by Dr Montgomery Watt who suggested the trade route went through Mecca to Gaza . He was trying to prove that Mecca was on the trade route. Dr Patricia Crone tried to prove that Mecca was never on the trade route which went through the red sea closer to the African coast and not the Arabian coast. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.