Macro N Cheese

David Fields talks to Steve about “Economists for Palestine,” the statement released by the Union for Radical Political Economics (URPE). They emphasize economists’ responsibility to take a stand against the genocide being perpetrated against the Palestinians. They look at the connection between Zionism and the global capitalist system, debunking misinformation while highlighting the difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism.We at Macro N Cheese urge our listeners to circulate the statement. https://urpe.org/2023/11/08/economists-for-palestine/Economists for PalestineWe stand in unwavering solidarity with the Palestinian people. Since October 7th, 2023, over two million people have faced a brutal onslaught by the Israeli military and state. They have been forced to flee with nowhere to go as homes, shelters, evacuation routes, border crossings, hospitals, places of worship and entire neighborhoods have been bombed.We mourn civilian deaths in both Israel and Palestine. Israel’s retaliation for the October 7th incursion continues, however, and over 9,000 Palestinians have been killed in the ongoing assault so far. More than 8,000 people have been killed in three weeks in Palestine. The estimated number of children among the casualties is over 3,000 and UNICEF estimates that about 420 children have been killed or wounded daily. Even reporters have been threatened with violence or killed.Since the Nakba 75 years ago, the Palestinian people have endured profound suffering, forced displacement, and a brutal 16-year-long inhumane siege and blockade in Gaza. Human rights organizations have characterized Gaza as ‘the largest open-air prison’.We also condemn the role of the U.S. state in supporting the ongoing siege in Palestine, its support for the horrors inflicted on Gaza, and its refusal to support a humanitarian ceasefire. It is imperative that we do not turn our backs on the devastating impact of this violence on people’s lives. The fight for Palestinian liberation and a fair, enduring peace in the region is intricately linked with the liberation and resistance efforts spearheaded by indigenous, colonized, and oppressed communities historically and worldwide.We stand in support of efforts by the Palestinian people to sustain themselves economically through control over their land and their labor. We stand in solidarity with the anti-Zionist Jewish communities that have been raising their voices against the carpet bombing of Gaza, for the liberation of the Palestinian people, and who are working for a just, equitable, and durable peace.We urgently call for:1. An immediate ceasefire2. Immediate restoration of food, fuel, water, and electricity to the Gaza Strip3. Cessation of all settlement activity and disarmament of all settlers4. Immediate delivery of humanitarian aid on the scale required5. Respect towards the Geneva Conventions by all parties concerned6. An end to apartheid and strident moves toward a democratic future for all people regardless of race, religion, gender identity and nationalityIn addition, we strongly uphold the principle of academic freedom, especially in light of the current global climate where individuals in educational institutions worldwide face termination, doxing, and harassment for speaking up against the atrocities of the Israeli state and in support of the civilian population in Gaza. Neglecting this commitment would be a betrayal of our scholarly and moral obligations.November 8th, 2023David Fields is a political economist from Utah; his work centers on the intricacies concerning the interactions of foreign exchange & capital flows with economic growth, fiscal & monetary policy, and distribution, whereby critical attention is paid to the notion of endogenous money. He also delves into the political economy of regional development to study patterns with respect to the nature of housing, social stratification, and community planning.@ProfDavidFields on Twitter

This week’s episode is the second half of Steve’s interview with Hamza Hamouchene about his book, Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region.Steve and Hamza agree on the importance of reckoning with the realities of the current capitalist imperialist system, which has proven to be a failure in addressing the most crucial needs of people and planet. Hamza argues that alternative visions for a better world already exist – he himself is an eco-socialist – but the challenge lies in implementing them and building the necessary alliances and coalitions of working people, both at the national and global levels.The conversation also delves into the specificities of the Arab region, which has elements of authoritarian and military dictatorships due to its subordinate insertion into the global capitalist economy and its role as a key nodal point in global fossil fuel regimes. Hamza highlights the need for a just energy transition that takes into account the control and ownership of fossil fuel resources and the potential for green renewable energies.Hamza calls for diversifying tactics and strategies, organizing and building power to challenge imperialism and the decarbonization by dispossession.Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator, and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.@BenToumert on Twitter

When we talk about the climate crisis, common wisdom says we’re all in it together. That implies that everyone is responsible, and everyone needs to do something about it. Our guest, Dr. Hamza Hamouchene, attacks this notion unequivocally: “The historical responsibility, of course, in the climate crisis lies within the industrialized capitalist West.” Most of the impacts are felt by communities in the global South, in countries that have been impoverished since colonial times. As developing nations they are additionally burdened by international financial institutions when, in fact, they are owed climate reparations.Hamza is co-editor of Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region. He talks with Steve about the urgent need for climate justice and decolonization, while suggesting what a just transition would entail.They emphasize the critical need for support of the Palestinians, whose cause must be included in discussions of colonialism, climate justice, global trade, and energy systems.Part Two of this interview will be released next week.Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.@BenToumert on Twitter

This week’s episode is another webinar from our RP Live series: Inside a Failed State, with Michael Hudson.Michael prefers a Q&A format. Attendee questions revolved around US political economy, domestic and global. He discusses topics such as healthcare, de-dollarization, and the impact of economic policies on the working class. He emphasizes the need for a change in economic philosophy and highlights the government's ability to create money for social programs.A common Hudson theme is the difference between the production and consumption economy, or what he calls the real economy, and the financial sector of assets and liabilities, of loans and debts, which is superimposed on the real economy.“Money is spent in the real economy, but bank credit is spent really just to increase the debt overhead in the economy — the overhead of mortgage debt, of corporate debt, and speculative debt.”A Michael Hudson episode always sparks lively, sometimes contentious, comments. His insights on finance, politics, and class power dynamics give fans and detractors alike something to chew on.Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Support him at patreon.com/michaelhudsonFind his work at michael-hudson.com

As a society we are conditioned to believe we can f*ck with nature, with the living world, but the economy is immutable. We dare not try to change it. As MMTers we say: hahahahaha... *sob* These two assumptions explain why we’re hurtling towards ecological catastrophe and why austerity has become a way of life. Steve’s guests this week are Colleen Schneider and Christopher Olk. They are co-authors, with Jason Hickel, of the paper, How to Pay for Saving the World: Modern Monetary Theory for a Degrowth Transition. Any listeners who have paid attention to Real Progressives’ journey over the past couple of years will be excited to add Colleen and Christopher’s insights to their intellectual arsenal. They are those rare scholars who manage to be both realistic and optimistic. (They are not suggesting that the right slate of politicians will tweak capitalism to make it heal the the planet and the population.) They discuss how both MMT and the degrowth movement challenge the myth of scarcity. They look at the disparities between the Global North and South. They emphasize the interconnectedness of ecological and social issues, and the need to address both the predation on the Global South and the climate crisis. They talk about non-reformist reform and the ways in which addressing national economic policies can be played out at the local level to radicalize people. By understanding the power dynamics within the financial system, MMT can empower and mobilize, allowing us to attack multiple problems as if they were one. Which they kind of are.*****Colleen Schneider is a PhD student and research assistant in the Institute for Ecological Economics at the Vienna University of Economics and Business and is a lecturer at Torrens University. She has a BA in Physics from UC Berkeley and MSc in Socio-Ecological Economics and Policy from WU. Her research focuses on the political economy of monetary and fiscal policy in a social-ecological transformation. Her recent work brings an MMT-informed lens to degrowth scholarship. She teaches courses in social ecological economics, and the intersection of money, society, and environment, and has also worked and published in the field of environmental justice. @ColleenFights on Twitter Christopher Olk is a PhD candidate in political economy at Free University Berlin. His current research focuses on the links between international monetary power, offshore finance, and fossil fuels. Christopher is also active in the climate justice movement. @christopher_olk on Twitter

Carlos García Hernández is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory. He lays out the five goals of fiat socialism:Full employmentFull and prudent use of material resourcesThe guarantee of the five essentials to every citizen: food, housing, clothing, health services, and educationSocial security at all major exposed points in the social structure (eg, old age, sickness, accident, temporary unemployment, and childbearing)Labor standards, to be assured by labor unionsCarlos maintains that any society achieving these five goals at the same time and permanently should be called socialist, no matter the size of the private sector.Steve and Carlos discuss the philosophical foundations of both fiat socialism and Marxism. They also look at the role of the IMF and the possibilities for monetary sovereignty in developing nations.Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory.@Carlos_G_H_ on Twitter Or X

This week’s episode welcomes back Fadhel Kaboub, a valued friend of this podcast. He and Steve discuss the concept of just transition and the problems with carbon markets as a solution to climate change. They stress the injustice of historic polluters buying carbon credits to continue polluting while displacing vulnerable communities in developing countries. It is yet another capitalist solution. The current global financial architecture, established during colonial times, is neither designed to address the climate crisis nor to promote sustainable prosperity.They emphasize the need for systemic change and a new vision for Africa and the global South that prioritizes food sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and industrial policy. They talk about the power dynamics between labor and capital, the role of governments in perpetuating inequality, and the importance of mobilizing and organizing for change.They highlight the narrow constructs that society is allowed to consider, which prevent true transformation and progress. They emphasize the importance of recognizing our interconnectedness and the need for what Fadhel calls “a movement of movements.”Fadhel Kaboub is an Associate Professor of economics at Denison University, the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Check out his recent work at https://justtransitionafrica.org/@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

A head of state whose economic policies promote austerity and fiscal responsibility is:ConservativeProgressiveN/A (not applicable)Daniel Conceição is with us for his third visit to Macro N Cheese. He and Steve discuss the failures of both right and left governments. Some broad strokes of Brazil’s historical patterns are not so different from those in the US. The last left(ish) president, Dilma Rousseff, abandoned her Leninist roots and hopped aboard the privatization train. It wasn’t enough to protect her from impeachment, however.It’s easy to see parallels between Bolsonaro and Trump as well as the lesser evilism we’re facing in both our countries today. Despite President Lula's progressive rhetoric, his economic policies prioritize deficit reduction. His administration is committed to delivering fiscal results to financial markets over public investment in education, healthcare, and other social services.Daniel touches on the “dollarizing” of Argentina's economy and explains that it can only exacerbate instability and conditions of scarcity.Daniel and Steve talk about the insights gained from Modern Monetary Theory and agree that building power beyond elections requires a paradigm shift in our thinking.Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

“The impossibility of economic catch-up does not imply that the citizens of the global South are condemned to suffer from poverty and inequality. It only implies that capitalism has nothing to offer as a prospect of a decent life for the vast majority of humanity...”In this webinar from our popular RP Live series, Ndongo Samba Sylla tells us of the challenges facing Africa through the story of Thomas Sankara and breaks down what Sankara meant when he told the people to "live as African.” Ndongo suggests that the way forward combines the insights provided by MMT with Sankara’s plans for African liberation and development. He calls it MMT-ing Sankara or Sankara-ing MMT. Since some see MMT as apolitical, Ndongo is making a crucial point. He also goes into detail as to why cancelling international debt, though necessary, is not enough.After his presentation, Ndongo takes questions from attendees on the role of BRICS and potential benefits for Africa in a multi-polar world. He touches on the CFA franc and explains why economic exploitation is the most vicious form of imperialism.Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist. He has previously worked as a technical advisor at the Presidency of the Republic of Senegal and was Programme Manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. He has recently been appointed the Africa Director for Research and Policy at IDEAs (International Development Economics Associates)He is the co-author of Africa’s Last Colonial Currency: The CFA Franc Story and author of The Fair Trade Scandal. Both books can be ordered through the RP Bookshop on our website: realprogressives.org@nssylla on Twitter

Understanding how monetary sovereign governments create and spend money means looking at the Treasury department and the central bank or, in the US, the Federal Reserve.Economist Eric Tymoigne explains two approaches to understanding the relationship: the consolidated and the collaborative, or cooperative, version of the Treasury and the Fed.The consolidated approach merges the Fed and the Treasury into one entity and analyzes the implications of this merger on public finance. It emphasizes that taxes and government securities don’t fund the government, but rather, the government spends by crediting accounts. (This comes as no surprise to MMTers.)The consolidated approach also highlights the importance of injecting reserves into the economy before taxes can be collected or government securities can be sold. The coordinated approach recognizes the separate roles of the Treasury and the Fed but emphasizes the extensive coordination between the two entities.Eric walks us through these operations and touches on the relationship with private banking and the role of reserves on the international stage.Listening to this episode, you can’t help but conclude that the ways in which the US manages monetary operations are not consistent with budgetary needs. It’s hard to see how it has anything to do with provisioning our society.Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon, and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.@tymoignee on Twitter

When someone associates Modern Monetary Theory with left or right wing politics, they’re signaling they know nothing of MMT and are simply associating it with some of its proponents. MMTers are political, MMT is not. Regarding degrowth, this week’s guest, Bill Mitchell, explains:“The way I think about it is that MMT is compatible with deep, hard industry pollution and massive growth if you want it to be. And it is also compatible with a highly sustainable strategy to reduce our reliance on mass consumption and to divert our economic activity, which we normally think is gross domestic product, to divert that into sustainable products. In other words, radically change the composition of our output.”In other words, MMT neither supports nor opposes the degrowth agenda. In this episode, Bill describes degrowth as a value system and strategic approach to the future of humanity on the planet.MMT, on the other hand, is a lens or framework for understanding the capacities of currency issuance and the consequences of using that capacity. He and Steve highlight that MMT is compatible with both growth-oriented and sustainable strategies, and that degrowth policies would require significant investment from the state. They also discuss the challenges and obstacles to implementing a degrowth agenda, including the resistance of powerful vested interests and the potential for military conflict.The conversation also delves into the historical and political factors that have shaped the current domestic and global politics, including the counterattack by corporations and the wealthy against social democratic majorities in the early 1970s. They discuss the role of ignorance and media manipulation in perpetuating the current system and the importance of education and knowledge in empowering individuals and fostering solidarity movements.Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/@billy_blog on Twitter

“I think within every labor struggle is a kernel of a broader transformation of society. So, it's interesting because Harry Bridges, who was the longtime leader of the longshore workers on the West Coast from the 1930s to the 1960s, when he talked about strike, he said every strike is a mini-revolution.”On the eve of the strike authorization vote by American Airlines flight attendants, Joe Burns spoke with Steve about the labor movement, unions, and class struggle. Joe, a labor lawyer and negotiator, has been a guest on Macro N Cheese twice before. His focus, then and now, is on the importance of class struggle unionism and the need for union leadership that is willing to engage in the broader fight, confronting power at its core.“When you think about it, every labor struggle has inherent in it the struggle over control and power. And who's running society … For that reason, it tends to inherently have this radicalism buried within it. And I think our task as class struggle unionists is to help uncover and further that.”Steve and Joe discuss the role of the corporate media in minimizing and obfuscating issues involving labor and class. They look at the ways in which both monetary and political policy are used to tame workers and reinforce the power of corporations.Joe Burns is a veteran union negotiator and labor lawyer with over 25 years' experience negotiating labor agreements. He is currently the Director of Collective Bargaining for the Association of Flight Attendants, CWA. He graduated from the New York University School of Law. Prior to law school he worked in a public sector hospital and was president of his AFSCME Local. He is the author of Strike Back, Reviving the Strike, and Class Struggle Unionism.@MarchOnTheBoss on Twitter

Activists and organizers know that effective communication depends on connecting with people’s real needs. But we’re often baffled when people don’t act in their own interests or don’t identify others’ interests as intersecting with their own.To grapple with some of these questions, Steve turns to Stephanie Preston, Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan and author of The Altruistic Urge: Why We’re Driven to Help Others. They delve into in-group versus out-group dynamics and the challenges of creating altruistic urges within different socioeconomic groups.The conversation explores structural solutions to address societal issues, such as universal basic needs and improved access to healthcare. Stephanie argues that eradicating precarity and providing basic survival needs would shift the mindset towards seeing individuals as deserving of support and compassion.Of course, there’s still the question of achieving these solutions. That’s where our activism comes in. For some of us, this episode may raise new questions. How do we level up to meet large scale problems? Does building empathy have a place in political organizing? Does altruism?Stephanie D. Preston is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan. She earned Master’s and PhD degrees in behavioral neuroscience at the University of California at Berkeley, followed by a postdoctoral fellowship in the Department of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine. She has been a faculty member at U-M since 2005. She uses an interdisciplinary approach to examine how the brain evolved to guide decisions through emotions, in a variety of domains, including to feel empathy, offer altruistic help, support the environment, and to consume and keep material goods. Her book, The Altruistic Urge: Why We Are Driven to Help Others (2022), is published by Columbia University Press.@prestostwit on Twitter

RP Book Club spent four weeks on The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. Tcherneva. Each week featured a different guest expert who led the discussion and answered questions. Listeners to this podcast will recognize their names, including Pavlina herself, Fadhel Kaboub, Ben Wilson, and Rohan Grey. We were also honored to have Bill Black and June Carbone join in.For this episode, Macro N Cheese is releasing the audio recording of all four sessions. Since it is unusually long, the time codes for each segment are included below.[00:03:09 - 01:55:41] Session OneGuest: Fadhel KaboubIntroductionChapter 1, “A Public Option for Good Jobs”Chapter 2, “A Steep Price for a Broken Status Quo”[01:55:41 - 03:17:41] Session TwoGuest: Pavlina TchernevaChapter 3, “The Job Guarantee, a New Social Contract and Macroeconomic Model”Chapter 4, “But How Will You Pay for It?”[03:18:44 - 04:41:57] Session ThreeGuest: Ben WilsonChapter 5, “What, Where, and How: Jobs, Design, and Implementation”[04:41:57 - 06:29:43] Session FourGuest: Rohan GreyChapter 6, “The Job Guarantee, the Green New Deal, and Beyond”Use this link to order a copy of The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. TchernevaDr. Fadhel Kaboub is Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC). He is an Associate Professor of Economics (on leave) at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@FadhelKaboub on TwitterPavlina R. Tcherneva is an Associate Professor of Economics at Bard College, the Director of OSUN’s Economic Democracy Initiative, and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute, NY. She specializes in modern money and public policy. Find her work at pavlina-tcherneva.net@ptcherneva on TwitterBenjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@autogestion77 on TwitterRohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

“...Because we recognize that taxes are not a funding operation, there's this myth that people who support MMT don't want to use fiscal policy to promote equity. Of course, taxes are redistribution … Things have gotten way out of hand, so taxation is also intended to promote equity, to affect distribution and allocation. Resource allocation.”Mat Forstater was on this podcast four years ago (episode 21!) recounting the history of MMT. He described his early days at Levy Institute and UMKC, his relationship with Warren Mosler and Pavlina Tcherneva, and how they established MMT as interdisciplinary, expanding into law and humanities. If you haven’t listened to that episode, we urge you to check it out.This week, Mat talks to Steve about the role of taxation in the economy and its relation to government spending. It’s not enough to understand how taxes create a demand for the nation’s currency and give it value. Mat always reminds us to consider the total impact of any policy — from using taxation to encourage or discourage behavior, to its ripple effects and unintended consequences.They touch on the importance of decoupling taxation from federal programs and the need to design tax policies that consider the indirect effects on society. They also talk about the potential deflationary impact of programs like Medicare for All, and whether a job guarantee can address unemployment and provide quality jobs.Dr. Mathew Forstater is a professor in Economics at the University of Missouri/Kansas City and the Research Director of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. having received a Ph.D. at The New School for Social Research. His research focuses on the History of Economic Thought, Economic Methodology, Political Economy, Public Policy, Economics of Discrimination, Environmental Economics, African and African American Economic History. @mattybram on Twitter

The title of this week’s episode is taken from an article to be published in September’s Monthly Review. The author, Jason Hickel, talks to Steve about the topic in his third visit to the podcast.Before we look at the double objective of ecosocialism we must analyze the double crisis we’re facing – ecological and social. Both are caused by the same underlying issue: the capitalist mode of production.Capitalism creates an almost perfect circuit that begins and ends with commodification and enclosure. Well, actually, it ends with massive profits... and that double crisis we mentioned. With essential goods and services outside our control, we have no bargaining power when it comes to the cost of living. We are helpless in the face of artificial scarcity and price-gouging. Faced with the high price of necessities we are forced to work longer and harder in order to simply survive. And of course, the more we need to work, the less control we have over our wages. The capitalist class makes out at both ends.There are at least two undeniable problems with this system. It wreaks havoc on the environment and is inconsistent with democracy, if you care about that sort of thing.“This is where our analysis has to ultimately lead, and the underlying pathology is basically that capitalism is fundamentally not democratic.”Even those of us who live in the US, Europe, or other countries with nominally democratic electoral systems have no illusions about their undemocratic nature.“More importantly, when it comes to the system of production, which all of us are engaged in every day, on which our livelihoods and our existence depends, not even the shallowest illusion of democracy is allowed to enter.”After identifying the quagmire, Jason and Steve talk about a solution. Jason lays out the necessary policies that ecosocialism should provide: universal public services, a public works program, and the job guarantee. Jason even suggests the possibility of post-capitalist firms and post-capitalist markets, and describes how they might operate in such a system.We can’t have a Jason Hickel episode without a discussion of degrowth and whether that concept applies to the exploitation of the Global South. Nor is there a means of achieving our goals without domestic and international class solidarity.“We can't underestimate the scale of the struggle that is really involved here. I think we have to take inspiration from successful social movements that have occurred in the past. There's this amazing line from Thomas Sankara, the revolutionary leader of Burkina Faso that goes 'we are the heirs of the world's revolutions'.Pretty much every good thing that we have is the result of revolutionary forces that fought to bring that to be. Everything from literally the minimum wage, as pitiful as it is, to the weekends, to whatever admittedly meager forms of democracy we get to exercise. These are all the benefits of revolutionary movements that have at least won some concessions in the past, and in some cases against extraordinary odds.”Dr. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, author, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He is Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Visiting Senior Fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and Chair Professor of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo. Health.Jason's research focuses on global political economy, inequality, and ecological economics, which are the subjects of his two most recent books: The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions (Penguin, 2017), and Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World (Penguin, 2020), which was listed by the Financial Times and New Scientist as a book of the year.@jasonhickel on Twitter

It will come as no surprise to our listeners that countries of the Global South are mired in a foreign debt crisis and that default is directly tied to the lack of monetary sovereignty.Our friend Ndongo Samba Sylla, a Senegalese development economist, talks to Steve about the situation, how it came to be, and how it can be overcome.Countries of the Global South usually are tied to debt in a foreign currency for a number of reasons, including balance of payment constraints and the capture of export income by transnational corporations. Some debt was carried over from colonial rule. Ndongo emphasizes that these countries are often trapped in an extractive economic model. Their resources are exploited by foreign companies, leading to a cycle of debt and dependence.Debt cancellation, while absolutely necessary, is not enough to address the structural issues that perpetuate the crisis. Ndongo mentions ecological debt — the extraction and exploitation of natural resources from the Global South by the Global North. He highlights the need for a fundamental change in the domestic economic model of accumulation to eliminate the role of debt as an instrument of domination.Ndongo also traces the history of structural adjustments after attempts at reform in the 1970s, beginning with the proposal for a New International Economic Order (NIEO) that challenged the imperialist system. The austerity we witness today arose from the reaction to that agenda.Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist. He has previously worked as a technical advisor at the Presidency of the Republic of Senegal, and is Programme Manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. He is the co-author of Africa’s Last Colonial Currency: The CFA Franc Story and author of The Fair Trade Scandal.@nssylla on Twitter

This week we’re bringing you all three sessions of the Real Progressives Book Club on L. Randall Wray’s Making Money Work for Us.RP Book Club is run by our volunteers with guest experts leading the discussion and taking questions from attendees.  This is much longer than our usual episodes of Macro N Cheese, so we’ve included the time codes for each session. [1:43] — Session One Guest economist Eric Tymoigne  Chapter 1, What is Money? Chapter 2, Where Does Money Come From? [1:14:35] — Session Two Guest economist Yeva Nersisyan  Chapter 3, Can We Have Too Much Money?  Chapter 4, Balances Balance  Chapter 5, Life is Full of Trade-Offs [2:43:33] — Session Three Guest economist Randy Wray Chapter 6, The MMT Alternative Framework for Policy  Chapter 7, MMT and Policy Use this link to order the book: Making Money Work for Us: How MMT Can Save America by L. Randall WrayEric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon; and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. @tymoignee on Twitter. Yeva Nersisyan is an Associate Professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute. L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at Bard College and Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute. 

“People talk about campaign finance being the problem as to why ‘progressive’ politicians can't get elected. But that's more of an effect of this rather than the cause, because let's say, Citizens United, the court ruling which now allows corporations to pretty much give unlimited donations to candidates. That's just the most recent evolution of a system which precludes all possibility for radical change.” Our guest this week is 1Dime, a content creator on YouTube and the podcast, 1Dime Radio, and a graduate student in political science. The interview is another stop on Steve’s journey to find the intersection of Modern Monetary Theory and Marxism. 1Dime is one of the few socialists – or democratic socialists – who accept MMT.Our audience understands that capitalism is antithetical to democracy. 1Dime suggests that the US is unique in that it is very liberal in what it allows its citizens to do in the private sphere, or civil society, without allowing for real political power, which he defines as the ability of a social class to actualize its interests. Steve and 1Dime compare the political history of the US with parliamentary democracies, discussing what that means for the working class. Agreeing that elections have limited value for American socialists, they look to alternatives. Tony brings up the idea of dual power: establishing power within the state while engaging in revolutionary actions outside it, building media institutions as well as organizations that can reach out to labor. Tony runs the YouTube channel "1Dime" and the podcast 1Dime Radio. On his main channel, 1Dime does video essays and mini-documentaries that involve the political economy, history, geopolitics, leftist theory, and various socio-political topics. 1Dime is known most for his videos involving MMT and Marxian thought, such as "The Problem With Taxing The Rich" and "Why Billionaires Prefer Democrats." His most recent video series was on the History of Post-Soviet Russia and the Putin regime. Each video serves as both an educational analysis of a different topic and a unique artistic experiment. Check out his YouTube channel, 1Dime and his podcast, 1Dime Radio, on Apple, Spotify, and most podcast platforms. @1DimeOfficial on Twitter

Is the US a failed state? Well, with a paralyzed economy, debt deflation, and a ruling elite waging class warfare on labor, what else should we call it?Economist Michael Hudson often writes and talks about the US role as a global force bending the rest of the world to its will. Or trying to. This week he and Steve bring the focus home, looking at the state of affairs in the US; breaking down the causes and devastating effects of the massive transfer of income and wealth from the working class to the 1% — specifically the finance, insurance, and real estate (FIRE) sectors.Michael slices through false promises of re-industrialization after half a century of brutal policies by both Democrat and Republican administrations.“America cannot re-industrialize without reversing this whole philosophy of post-industrial society as a class war against labor. You can't have both. You can't have a class war against labor and re-industrialization, with the labor unionization that goes with it. That's the conundrum.”It’s well known that the people want public spending on healthcare, student loan forgiveness, and other social programs. The episode looks at the complementary roles of both parties in opposition.“The pretense is that the government has to borrow from bond holders. Because the bond holders decide what is economically worthwhile. Well, what does this ignore? That the bond holders are the 1%, and what they find economically worthwhile isn't using the government to benefit living standards, benefit labor, and to provide social services.”Should either party feign to support a policy and pass legislation benefiting the people, the Supreme Court is there to stop it in its tracks, citing the original intent of the Constitution.“Because the Constitution was drafted by authors who feared democracy. Who said that we have to make sure that we have enough checks and blocks, so that the mob cannot rule and take away the power of we, the bond holders, and landlords, and slave owners.”There are certain themes Michael Hudson visits again and again, strengthening connections and adding nuance to a comprehensive class analysis and global political economy. If you’re lucky, he’ll pepper it with a few snarky observations as well.Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Support him at patreon.com/michaelhudsonFind his work at michael-hudson.com

In this episode, David Correia and Tyler Wall, co-authors of Police: A Field Guide, lead a webinar about policing in the US.The common narrative about the police is intentionally misleading. Without a class analysis and an understanding of history, it will remain a problem with no solution. Policing isn’t a side-show to capitalist political economy. It’s part of the main stage. Far from engaging in enforcing the law and fighting crime, the police are a coercive force, with origins as slave patrols, colonial militia, and strike-breakers.Addressing possibilities of reform or abolition, the point is made that attempts at reform only serve to further maintain the legitimacy of the police. Reform does not address the monopoly on violence — a violence that is non-negotiable and non-reciprocal. Reform feeds into the myth that we hold the police accountable. Abolition, on the other hand, does not mean absence; it looks at possibilities for a different kind of world. Can this be done within the capitalist system?David Correia is a professor of American studies at the University of New Mexico. He writes about violence, law, and race under capitalism.Tyler Wall is an associate professor in the Department of Sociology at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. His areas of interest include critical police studies; state violence and racial capitalism; law & society, race and class.Correia and Wall are co-authors of Police: A Field Guide (Verso)

If you’ve recently chatted with a well-informed liberal – the kind who reads the NY Times or watches PBS NewsHour – you’ve heard encouraging things about the economy. You’ve heard that Biden’s doing a good job. Unemployment has gone down, wages have gone up. Why can’t you be happy about it all?To celebrate all this good news, we brought back our friend, Yeva Nersisyan, associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College, research scholar at the Levy Institute, and frequent collaborator with MMT OG Randy Wray.Yes, unemployment rates are lower, but we know those numbers don’t tell the true story. Or have you already forgotten our episode with Pavlina, just two short weeks ago? Yes, wages have gone up. But so has inflation. And in the race between inflation and wages, inflation is winning. Speaking of which, our Macro N Cheese family knows that one thing worse than inflation is the Fed’s cure for it.In this episode, Steve and Yeva look at the disconnect between the ongoing immiseration of the working class and the rosy scenario painted by politicians, pundits, and economists. At least one of those groups should know better. They discuss the looming student debt crisis, and the effect of the Fed’s interest rate hikes on student loans.When discussing MMT-informed solutions, Yeva warns:“You have to be consistent — whether it's the Trump tax cuts, whether it's the social security question. And you have to consistently say: the question of taxes and government spending, it should not be about deficits, should not be about debt, it should be about: is this the right thing for the economy? Is this what the people want? Is this what the people need? That's what you need to start with. And just because you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, which I do too, but I don't want to tie it to things like social security, because I think that's just a losing argument, and that's just not true.”MMT points toward answers, if anyone is asking.Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

It’s always interesting to get the insights of someone whose job places them near the beating heart of the imperial behemoth. Especially when they’ve begun to pull back the curtain and take a hard look at reality. Paul Gambles lives in Thailand where he specializes in emerging markets with MBMG Group.Paul and Steve talk about the clarity that MMT provides. The public is kept intentionally misinformed by a mainstream narrative purposely obscuring the power relations of the capital order.Paul describes capital flight in developing nations and how the US gains and maintains economic control through dollar hegemony, international institutions like IMF, and military aggression. The western system imposes itself on emerging markets as if drawing them into a warm pool of water, a step at a time. Once they are in the system, they find it is shark infested.The discussion covers conditions that led to the banding together of BRICS to create an alternative pathway to the US-dominated system. Paul warns that western hegemony is not going to surrender easily and is practicing economic terrorism against emerging markets trying to disentangle themselves from dollar hegemony.“I don't believe that anybody can hand on heart say that there's no connection whatsoever with the BRICS attempts to disentangle themselves from Western commercial, economic, and currency hegemony and the actions that we've seen in terms of American geopolitics in and around the Ukraine and in and around the South China Sea ... I think we're seeing it move into a geopolitical and into a military sphere, and I think that's terrifying.”Just like old-fashioned colonialism, the US is engaging in a form of value extraction and will use all the means at its disposal to continue the plunder.Paul Gambles is the Co-Founder of MBMG GROUP and a Director and Chief Investment Officer of MBMG Investment Advisory, a SEC regulated investment advisor. Find Paul’s articles on https://mbmg.substack.com/@PaulGambles2 on Twitter

When economist Pavlina Tcherneva was last on this podcast, we were a few months into the pandemic. She and Steve talked about nationalizing payroll and the heightened need for a federal job guarantee during a time of crisis.In this episode, the neoliberal approach to unemployment comes under scrutiny. Pavlina explains the inadequacy of official unemployment data. She looks at the problem from several angles, including geography, demographics, and of course, economics.Pavlina and Steve discuss MMT, the politics of NAIRU, and the debt ceiling. They look at a job guarantee as an automatic stabilizer, similar to entitlements like social security and unemployment insurance, possibly shielding it from shifting political tides.Pavlina tells Steve about her collaboration with the Democratizing Work Initiative, a group of academics who are organizing around the principles of democratizing work, decommodifying labor, and decarbonizing the planet.Pavlina Tcherneva is an Associate Professor of Economics at Bard College, the Director of OSUN’s Economic Democracy Initiative, and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute, NY. She specializes in modern money and public policy. Find her work at pavlina-tcherneva.net@ptcherneva on Twitter

“We've all got that cop in our head that wants us to see a world full of threats and emergencies.”Steve’s guest, David Correia, is co-author (with Tyler Wall) of Police: A Field Guide. Listeners to the podcast probably understand the role of police is to protect capital, not ensure the safety of the citizens.“...from the railroad strikes of 1877 to the anthracite strike of 1902, it was just this unruly world of labor asserting itself, demanding higher wages, refusing to go back to work, and progressives were among the most effective political force in developing a new order. And that new order required a different cop.”Despite occasional protests and demands for reform, we always end up with more police and more police brutality. Police reformists prioritize law and order over justice, which is why they fear abolition. David asks us to define what order and disorder is. “Because usually cops produce the disorder that they then resolve.” The very language of reform legitimizes the police.David Correia is a writer and professor of American studies at the University of New Mexico. He is the author of a number of books, and co-author, along with Tyler Wall, of "Police: A Field Guide." He is the recipient of a Ford Fellowship, a Henry Belin du Pont Fellowship, and a Lannan Residency Fellowship.

Dr. Yan Liang joins Steve to talk about China’s role in the global economy and the concept of “de-dollarization.” It’s refreshing to hear a discussion of these issues without hyperbole, but you know that already; that’s why you come to Macro N Cheese.Countries of the global south have suffered chronic debt and financial crises due to the neoliberal regime of the US and its allies. After the 2008 financial crisis, China has been diversifying its foreign exchange reserves and establishing currency swaps with more trading partners. The goal is to dilute the power of the dollar and temper US hegemony with a more stable and development-friendly system.Yan and Steve consider the loss of jobs in the US – a consequence of perpetual trade deficits. She maintains that the competition is not between domestic and foreign production, but between high financial returns and real productive capacity.The episode looks at China’s future role in global trade and finance, and how it might provide support and relief to developing nations. The conversation also touches on the flaws of the Western-led multilateral lending system and the need for alternatives.Dr. Yan Liang of Willamette University specializes in Post Keynesian-Institutionalist approach to international trade and finance, financial macroeconomics, and economic development with a regional focus on China.@YanLian31677392

Dr. Lin Zhang talks with Steve about her book "The Labor of Reinvention: Entrepreneurship in the New Chinese Digital Economy."Her book includes stories of individuals who transformed themselves and their lives to take advantage of this new global economy. She tells of Min, a former prisoner...“I think Min's story in a way captures the sort of imperative of entrepreneurialism in which we are all still living. The contemporary capitalist economy. The need to kind of keep reinventing oneself to adapt to the constant changes, but also the kind of contradiction generated on personal and collective level. So, the coexistence of opportunities, risk and frustrations. So this is, I think, what I try to document in the book, the everyday labor of entrepreneurial reinvention.”Dr. Zhang and Steve discuss the support provided by the state, which is no small matter. It makes entrepreneurism in China different from that of the US, or from India or developing countries of the global South.Zhang also talks about the roots of Chinese nationalism in China's socialist anti-imperialist history, which are reinforced by recent American sanctions and containment of China.Zhang argues that the US tends to view China through a simplistic lens of authoritarianism versus democracy, while the majority of Chinese people do not see their relationship with the party state in such terms. She provides a more nuanced picture of the Chinese state, discussing the competing demands of the central government to maintain economic development, social equity, and national security, as well as the discrepancies between central and local states.Dr. Lin Zhang is an assistant professor of communication and media studies at the University of New Hampshire. She graduated from the Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism, University of Southern California, with a PhD in Communication, and MA from NYU’s Department of Media, Culture, and Communication. She is the author of The Labor of Reinvention: Entrepreneurship in the New Chinese Digital Economy, one of the first multi-sited ethnographic accounts of the rising entrepreneurial labor in urban, rural, and transnational China since tech innovation had accelerated in the country after 2008.https://linzhangweb.org

It’s been almost two years since we’ve had German economist Dirk Ehnts on the podcast. This episode can be seen as part of Steve’s ongoing look at “dedollarization” and what it means to be the world’s reserve currency. They turn the MMT lens toward the Eurozone, comparing governments’ responses to the pandemic, inflation, and the treatment of labor.“So of course the labor laws are different in Germany compared to Italy, to France and so on. If the French workers go on strikes, they burn stuff. It's always amazing for us Germans to see it happening, but their productivity is even higher. So maybe German workers should burn stuff when they go on strike. So that increases productivity.No, I'm just joking. I never said that!"Dirk talks about changes in regulations on deficit spending and his belief that the ECB understands MMT, as evidenced by their support of national governments during economic crises. When monetary sovereignty was returned to Eurozone countries over a four-year period, “the results were pretty good.” They now have a lower rate of unemployment than ever before. It’s still high... but not as high as before. He thinks inequality is not quite so bad as in the US and explains why this is.Steve and Dirk discuss how Europe is affected by the US Fed’s raising of interest rates. “So it's just giving money to people who have money like Warren (Mosler) always says.” But ultimately, “the net effect is that we have roughly zero growth in the European economy.”Dr. Dirk H. Ehnts holds a PhD in Economics from the University of Oldenburg and a diploma in economics from the University of Göttingen. A heterodox economist, he is one of the leading proponents of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). He has taught classes on macroeconomics, money and currency, European and global economics, and the origins of political economy at a number of institutions. Every summer since 2016 Dirk has held a course on Modern Monetary Theory at the Summer School of Maastricht University and has published numerous articles in specialist journals and daily newspapers.https://www.dirk-ehnts.de/en-us/@DEhnts on Twitter

New Zealander Bijou Smith is a longtime friend of Steve and the podcast. His story, in brief: “I was a physicist. I love physics, theoretical physics, but when I learned a bit about economics—I was always interested in economics from a sort of dynamical systems analysis perspective. It's kind of interesting mathematics. Even the neoclassical stuff is interesting for a little while until you realize it's a joke. But then when I heard about MMT, a lot of the pieces clicked into placed and it's like, wow, this is really the struggle.” MMT is a bell that can’t be unrung.Steve and Bijou talk of popular concern about the petrodollar, and how economic illiteracy distorts its importance. The role of the US dollar in global political economy is poorly understood without the insights of MMT.Smith criticizes the false psychology that views currency as a finite resource and is locked into the image of fixed exchange rates. He argues that this creates mental models that are not true but are still played out as if they are. He distinguishes between false conceptions of dollar hegemony and the very real struggles that countries face when they are indebted to the IMF and believe the imposition of austerity is the only way out.The discussion looks at the way foreign exchange rates affect and do not affect national economies. Smith explains that this process does not have anything to do with confidence in a particular currency. It is a market-making activity.Those who follow us know that Steve has long been searching for a way to bring the understanding of MMT to the left. This episode is a continuation of that journey.Bijou Smith has lectured and taught general physics, magnetohydrodynamics, undergrad mathematics, statistics and IT. He now devotes most of his time to independent research in theoretical physics and studying implications of Modern Monetary Theory. Check out his blog, Ohanga Pai, at bijou.substack.com@MathWillSuffice on Twitter

If you’re one of the lucky ones who attended our webinar, RP Live with Clara E. Mattei, then you’ve already heard this episode. Or you may have watched the video of that event. This podcast episode is the audio version, but we’re asking you to play it anyway. It never hurts to hear information a few times, and by playing it, you’re also helping us grow Macro N Cheese. Because algorithms.On Tuesday, May 2nd, Professor Mattei will be joining us for the first of two sessions of RP Book Club on The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism. There’s still time to register using the link at the bottom of this page.At the end of The Capital Order Mattei writes:"This book has detailed a set of influential economic patterns that are pervasive across the globe and that shape our daily lives. Contrary to what the proponents of austerity would have us think, however, the socioeconomic system we live in is not inevitable, nor is it to be grudgingly accepted as the only way forward. Austerity is a political project arising out of the need to preserve capitalist class relations of domination. It is the outcome of collective action to foreclose any alternatives to capitalism. It can thus be subverted through collective counteraction. The study of its logic and purpose is the first step in that direction."Join us for RP Book Club, May 2nd and 16th. To register, go to https://realprogressives.org/rp-book-club/Clara E. Mattei is an Assistant Professor in the Economics Department of The New School for Social Research and was a 2018-2019 member of the School of Social Sciences at the Institute for Advanced Studies. Her research contributes to the history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making.@claraemattei on Twitterhttps://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-198-the-trinity-of-austerity-with-clara-mattei/

Carl Zha brings us his knowledge of China, the US, and global political economic relations. He also brings his exquisite sense of the absurd.Exactly one year ago, Carl and Steve recorded their marathon discussion of Chinese history, resulting in three episodes about Mao. This time, they have Taiwan in their sights. Just like Joe Biden.Official US policy on Taiwan is just ambiguous enough to allow plenty of shenanigans, despite recognizing “one China” since the 1970s.“We know how the Cold War 1.0 played out. We isolated the Soviet Union and Soviet bloc. We cut off all the trade and then eventually the Soviet Union collapsed. This is how we won the Cold War 1.0. So we'll just play the same playbook to win Cold War 2.0 against China. But this is crazy talk because China is nothing like Soviet Union of the yester years; China is the world's largest trading economy. It has trade not just with United States and Europe but also has a huge trade with the global south. So, what the US is doing in its attempted decoupling from China, actually it's cutting US off from the rest of the world.”The United States has gone from being a major industrial power to being a service economy with a neglected, crumbling infrastructure. China is building economic relationships around the world “without tanks and nuclear arms and planes,” says Steve. “China has been working in a much more cooperative way and people are lining up to say, ‘sign me up. I don't want the US having its hands on me.’”The conversation covers the economic and political implications of this reversal of fortune. With their massive exports to the US, China has accumulated vast amounts of US dollars. The 2008 financial crisis supplied impetus for China to seek new uses for their dollars reserves. Carl explains the Belt and Road Initiative and its multifaceted benefits.Carl Zha hosts Silk and Steel, a weekly podcast discussing history, culture, and current events of China and the Silk Road. Support him at patreon.com/silknsteel. His YouTube channel is https://www.youtube.com/@CarlZha.@CarlZha on Twittert.me/CarlZha on Telegram

It’s been two years since Bill Black was last on with Steve. We’ve invited several guests to talk about the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, so it only makes sense to ask our whistleblower friend to weigh in. Bill and Steve discuss what it means to be too big to fail. When an institution is too big to fail, the creditors get bailed out, but then, Bill says, “really really bad things have happened.” “...they hold the economy hostage. And nowadays they hold the global economy hostage. And if you hold the global economy hostage, you hold global politics hostage. So that needs to be fixed. And the way to fix that is not to allow such institutions, right? Duh,” The episode looks at the capture of government by the financial industry. Bill talks about his experience during the savings and loan crisis and the transition from somewhat effective regulatory apparatus to a fully cock-blocked system. (Our words, not his.) Bill Black is a professor of Economics and Law at the University of Missouri – Kansas City (UMKC) and the Distinguished Scholar in Residence for Financial Regulation at the University of Minnesota Law School. He is a serial whistleblower and authored The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One.

Author Dan Kovalik talks to Steve about his recent book, Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance. His perspective includes his own experiences in Nicaragua and the personal connections he made there.From the 1910 occupation and eventual ouster of US Marines, through the dictatorships of several members of the Samosa family, the conditions for revolution were ripe. Dan describes the 1979 revolution as a David and Goliath story. The Sandinistas inherited a country steeped in poverty, with no infrastructure. The US-backed counterrevolution began almost immediately. Ronald Reagan and the Contras are just a small piece of it.Dan grew up believing the US was the beacon on the hill, committed to spreading democracy and freedom. His first trip to Nicaragua changed his politics and his life.Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He teaches International Human Rights at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He is the author of several books, including The Plot to Scapegoat Russia and Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance.@danielmkovalik on Twitter

C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, and “arm-chair theorist” (his words, not ours), but Steve called on him for his deep knowledge of history, specifically the history of revolutions.Varn takes a realistic and nuanced look at some of the popular myths about the brutality of key figures, like Stalin and Mao. He suggests placing them in the context of historical geopolitical economic conditions.I'm also just going to remind people that both the Bolshevik Revolution and the Chinese Revolution, in particular, come out of the context of world wars. They happen when they happen during the world wars for a reason. You have highly traumatized societies where the power has been broken because of the consequences of world war, even when the powers at hand are actually allied with the winners.Steve asks whether one should excuse abandoning civil liberties in order to protect the gains of a revolution against very real internal and external threats. “What civil liberties?” asks Varn. Some revolutions never even got rid of their monarchies.The episode considers Bolshevism, Trotskyism, and fascism. Varn talks about why both socialists and capitalists were attracted to fascism, looking, again, to the conditions of the time.C. Derick Varn is a poet, teacher, editor, podcaster, and broadcaster. He is the host of VarnVlog and co-host of Gaming Materialists. According to his Patreon, Varn Vlog is a podcast and YouTube channel dedicated to delivering high-quality interviews and analyses on philosophy, art, political economy, culture, geopolitics, pop culture, and history. Support his work at patreon.com/varnvlog@skepoet on Twitter

When you learned of the run on Silicon Valley Bank, did the image of George Bailey come to mind, facing the mob demanding full withdrawals from Bailey Building & Loan?“You’re thinking of this place all wrong, as if I had the money back in the safe. The money’s not here. Why, your money’s in Joe’s house that’s right next to yours. And the Kennedy house and Mrs. Maitland’s house, and a hundred others. You’re lending them the money to build, and they pay it back to you as best they can. What are you gonna do, foreclose on them?” (It’s a Wonderful Life, 1946)Steve’s guest is Brian Romanchuk of Bond Economics, here to break down the conditions and events leading to the collapse of SVB. Spoiler alert: there’s no Jimmy Stewart, no uplifting message, no sentimental tears.Brian explains how the American banking system is unusual relative to other developed countries. In Canada, where he lives, the Big Five banks are an oligopoly, but they’re diversified. They deal with all the nation’s banking needs.SVB is a relatively small bank, specializing in venture capital. This focus affects expectation of profits and the decision to invest in long-term Treasurys. When the Federal Reserve, fighting inflation on the backs of the working class, raised interest rates, the ultimate result was the bank’s collapse.Brian and Steve discuss how the Fed’s policies have led to a decrease in savings and an increase in debt, leading to greater inequality. They touch on Credit Suisse as well as pension funds in the UK, and try to clarify our understanding of bankruptcy and “bail-outs.”Real life is more complicated than it’s presented in movies. Don’t expect any angels to get their wings.Brian Romanchuk is the author of several books, including Modern Monetary Theory and the Recovery. He is the writer and publisher of bondeconomics.com. His writings can be found in his substack, The BondEconomics Newsletter.@RomanchukBrian on Twitter

Steve always says the beauty of MMT is “it takes the most convoluted spaghetti diagram and turns it into a straight line.” When it comes to banking, the financial industry, financial technology, and privacy, has the MMT community developed that straight line yet? Today’s guest, Raúl Carrillo, thinks we can get there:“I don't think we quite have, but I think the straight line flows right through everything else we've done. Just as we don't want banks to be heavily involved in the public provisioning process... We have to pay just as much attention to Silicon Valley, and then start thinking about what it looks like to actually build a democratic public money system that operates on MMT principles.”It’s been two years since we’ve had Raúl on the podcast, but the conversation is continuous, and it includes our episodes with Rohan Grey and Brett Scott.Steve and Raúl discuss Raúl’s recently published white paper, "Seeing Through Money: Democracy, Data Governance, and the Digital Dollar." It is essentially an intervention in the discussion about the future of money. It includes analysis of the way government agencies use financial technology today and how it is linked to a broader public money story and an MMT story. Currently, banks are intermediaries between the public and the state. In other words, banks are part of the plumbing. But what’s to stop the government from using financial technology for the public purpose and cutting the middlemen?Today, however, it’s more than just the banks.“The inclusion of new technological partners in the plumbing changes many, many things. If a Silicon Valley firm – whether it's a big stablecoin firm like Circle or PayPal – gets a master account at the Fed, we're living in a different terrain for MMT analysis ... I think it's just very important that we keep an eye on Silicon Valley in this sense and take the time for self-assessment when we talk about what kind of public money systems we're building.”The conversation goes into privacy issues where, again, the lines are blurred between the private sector and the government. Or maybe “blurred” is the wrong word. Their lines of communication are not necessarily visible to the public. What has been blurred is, in some cases, the distinction between left and right.Some take-aways from the episode. Financial surveillance can have extreme consequences. Think of a state with draconian anti-abortion laws. If the government can’t get a hold of your medical records, they can simply track your payments. After the Dobbs ruling, some suggested using cryptocurrency to pay for abortion, but guess what? It turns out blockchain is not private in the way most people think it is. That’s another take-away from the episode.Whatever the idealized intentions of the early developers of digital currency (remember how it would address the racial wealth gap?) it has mutated into a world of grifters and fraud. As Raúl says, “It’s not a cool party anymore, if it ever was. When you’ve got the cops and the bankers there, it’s time to leave.”Raúl Carrillo is the Deputy Director of the LPE Project (Law and Political Economy) and an Associate Research Scholar at Yale Law School. He is on the board of Modern Money Network and the chair of Public Money Action.@RaulACarrillo on Twitter

Austerity is a potent weapon of class warfare. Political economist David Fields talks with Steve about the ways austerity serves to discipline labor, as it has been doing since the Bolshevik revolution. They touch on the reasons capitalism cannot risk full employment, as explained by both Karl Marx and Michal Kalecki.David wants people to read Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations or The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Even Smith, the father of the “invisible hand,” said government is instituted for the security of property — for the rich against the poor.The discussion touches on the current inflation, comparing the true causes to the mainstream narrative.“There's been a very coordinated, calculated campaign with well-known economists. Call it neoliberalism. Call it what you want, financialization... The concepts, terms, economic principles that we take for granted are not value-neutral.”We are embedded in a system of winners and losers and we’re meant to believe there’s no other way. Workers must be prevented from understanding the trifecta of austerity – fiscal, monetary, and industrial.Bio: David M. Fields, Political Economist, Utah. From a critical realist & genetic structuralist ontology & epistemology, David's scholarly work centers on the intricacies concerning the interactions of foreign exchange & capital flows with economic growth, fiscal & monetary policy, and distribution, whereby attention is paid to the nature of money and international political economy. He has published in the following journals: Review of International Political Economy, Review of Political Economy, American Review of Political Economy, the Review of Keynesian Economics, and the Review of Radical Political Economics. Additionally, he has provided book chapter contributions to The Encyclopedia of Post-Keynesian Economics, The Encyclopedia of Central Banking, and the Wiley-Blackwell Encyclopedia of Globalization. David received his graduate degree from the University of Utah; his bachelor's from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst.@ProfDavidFields on Twitter

Dr. Fadhel Kaboub was recently appointed Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC), an international intergovernmental organisation founded by countries from across the Global South. In honor of Fadhel’s new position, we’re releasing Steve’s very first interview with him from back in the day when we live streamed onto Facebook. Steve thinks his questions are very different today — more disciplined. Some of us can’t get over how young he sounded. It was only five years ago!Fadhel and Steve discuss the spectrum of monetary sovereignty from full sovereignty to completely non-sovereign. Fadhel explains the structural debt traps developing nations find themselves in. They have deficits related to lack of sufficient food or energy production, forcing them to rely on imports.“Those are things that, no matter what you do as a central bank, you're not going to eliminate those structural issues unless as a country you start investing in renewable energy so that you don't have to import fossil fuels anymore or you invest in a sustainable agricultural policy to let you have food self-sufficiency.”The hole in their trade deficit leads to depreciation of their exchange rate.“And then the next morning or the next month when you as a country try to import food or fuel, you're going to import it at a higher price. So you'd be importing inflation into your domestic economy ... The inflation is related to a weakness of the productive capacity of the domestic system plus the imported inflation that happens because of the depreciation of the exchange rate.”Fadhel and Steve also discuss the devastating effects of unemployment and the potential of a Job Guarantee Program for developing countries.Dr. Fadhel Kaboub is Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC). He is an Associate Professor of Economics (on leave) at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

Historian Harvey J. Kaye joins Steve to talk about the complicated legacy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Kaye acknowledges many points in our criticism of FDR but goes on to discuss what Roosevelt was up against, and why he should be respected.“Because Gramsci, I think it was, said, when you judge the past, don't forget, you too shall be judged. I'm paraphrasing … When socialists start winning elections, then they can start telling me about how inadequate FDR was.”Them’s fighting words! But speaking of socialists – or rather, social democrats – and elections, the episode also includes discussion of Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaigns, and the lessons Bernie could have taken from FDR. After all, they both faced serious opposition within the Democratic Party.At a time when the American capitalist class were enamored of Mussolini, Harvey lays out FDR’s achievements and maintains that those policies prevented a revolution. Listen to the episode and see whether you agree.Harvey J. Kaye is a Professor Emeritus of Democracy and Justice at the University of Wisconsin, Green Bay, and an award-winning writer who has authored and edited 18 books, including Thomas Paine and The Promise of America, Take Hold of Our History, FDR on Democracy, The Fight for the Four Freedoms, and The British Marxist Historians.@harveyjkaye on Twitter

Recent episodes of this podcast have looked at the many ways in which the US attempts to maintain global hegemony through the deep state, the banking system, NATO, and the unholy trinity of the IMF, WTO, and World Bank.This week, Steve talks with Daniel Conceição about the possibility of a supranational currency for Brazil and Argentina. Daniel points out some potential benefits, but it’s hard to avoid comparisons to the Eurozone and the crippling loss of monetary sovereignty. Nevertheless , if successful, such an agreement has far-reaching implications not only for these two nations but potentially throughout all of Latin America, helping promote greater economic integration while providing increased stability.Steve and Daniel revisit the issue of the petrodollar. Traditional MMT wisdom would say it’s no big deal; it’s merely a numeraire. Daniel suggests there’s more to it, “because when we claim that taxes are the main driver of currency acceptability, what we really mean is that necessity is the main driver.” Just as taxes put us in need of the currency,“...in the exact same way, if there's a commodity that is hugely needed for your economy to function—everyone needs to purchase it—and if that commodity is only purchasable in a particular currency, then it also necessarily will give acceptability to that currency.”The episode considers the accuracy of books such as ‘’Confessions of an Economic Hitman.” Daniel points out that mainstream economics is a tool to preserve the interests of the ruling class both domestically and internationally. It’s a mistake to think the economic hitmen are working to secure American interests. Just as we’ve heard from Aaron Good, Michael Hudson, Clara Mattei, and other guests, it’s not a case of country against country, but of a ruling class working against the interests of everyone else.Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

We revere venture capitalists, don’t we? Without their brave acts of derring-do — AKA investing in uncertain ventures — how would society achieve progress? Just kidding.If you are a regular listener to this podcast, you’ve heard guests speak about the horizontal contradictions within the ruling class. Industrial capital and finance capital can each be affected differently by foreign, domestic, fiscal, and monetary policies. They may sing from the same hymn book but sometimes their interests diverge.Steve’s guest, Dr. Julia Ott, teaches the history of capitalism at the New School. She and Steve focus their discussion on venture capitalism and its implications on policy changes, inequality, and the racial wealth gap. They explore how venture capitalists have been heavily involved in lobbying for capital gains tax breaks, leaving them more to invest and pass on to their children, exacerbating the extremes of generational wealth and generational poverty, especially for people of color.They also observe how venture capital is assumed to create a virtuous cycle by reinvesting in multiple new companies. Historically, however, the state has been more consequential to economic growth and job creation than venture capital. For all the anti-government rhetoric flying around, especially during conservative or laissez faire periods (hello, Mr. Reagan and Mrs. Thatcher), the federal government is heavily involved in capital markets and infrastructure. Far from interfering, the state is a willing and consistent facilitator in the amassing of private wealth.Dr. Julia Ott is Associate Professor of the History of Capitalism and Co-Director of the Heilbroner Center for Capitalism Studies at the New School for Social Research.

If Macro N Cheese wasn’t committed to spreading MMT to the activist community, we might have been a history podcast. Nothing excites Steve Grumbine as much as listening to 50 hours of lectures on the French Revolution or the Black Plague. This week’s guest, Aaron Good, checks a lot of our boxes. What he brings to the table is history with a solid class analysis.Aaron is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. American exception should not be confused with American exceptionalism; think instead of the concept of laws applying to everyone EXCEPT one nation or one elite group.During World War II, the US oligarchy saw the opportunity to replace the western European colonial powers with a new empire. They planned and created institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, the CIA — all designed to launch and support this new era of US domination of global capitalism. Imperialism required its own strategy:“To do all of this, they need to have the capitalist world all marching to America's beat. And so the Cold War is more or less ginned up and anti-communism becomes the principle around which the US empire is organized. So it's an empire, but it's not an empire that says ‘we are an empire and we're going out to rule the world.’Instead, it is packaged as a defensive response to a terrible threat. And so communism is the perfect foil because you can basically castigate any left-wing idea that you don't like as being part of this global communist plot, whether domestically or around the world. And they use this to legitimate, really, an attack on the whole world and also on the US population.”Aaron and Steve go on to discuss more of the history of US hegemony, elite criminality, and anti-democratic forces. They look at ruling class manipulation of institutions like academia, politics, and media. They critique Scandinavia as an example of democratic socialism (or social democracy?) with capitalist rule and explore the complicated legacy of Franklin D. Roosevelt.Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State, and host of the American Exception podcast. Support him on patreon.com/americanexception@Aaron_Good_ on Twitter

When you realize the national debt is little more than a bunch of interest-bearing savings accounts, you will have effectively neutered the politicians and pundits who wield it like a weapon to keep the people in line and tame the working class. Every year in the US, the debt ceiling alarm is rung right on schedule. Just like Halloween.Interest-bearing Treasury bills are not available to most of us. (Do you have an account with the Federal Reserve? No? Exactly.) Rohan Grey is back to explain how these things work for the select elite. Not only do the rest of us handle money differently—we think about it differently. The words we use have different meanings.“The average person might think money is the opposite of debt. Well, that's not how the financiers think. That's not how the bankers think. That's not how the hedge fund managers think. For them, cash is debt. Debt is cash. It just depends on what they're talking about.”We’re supposed to believe the US is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Every time a Treasury bill comes due, we should hold our collective breath and pray the government has the funds to pay down another installment of the “debt.” Rohan takes us through the day-to-day buying and selling of Treasurys. The financiers, bankers, and hedge fund managers aren’t worried. At least not about US insolvency. We can exhale.Steve and Rohan talk about the trillion-dollar platinum coin and the law that makes it a ridiculously simple solution. If only the ruling elite didn’t have a different agenda.The Macro N Cheese official Rohan Grey cultural references spotter flagged The Rocky Horror Picture Show, a Beatles song (Taxman, of course), Better Call Saul, Seinfeld, and Kaleidoscope, Natasha Lyonne’s new Netflix series. Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald’s pop up as well.Chuck E. Cheese and McDonald’s show up as well.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

In September, Real Progressives had a webinar with Michael Hudson. It gave our volunteers the opportunity to ask him about his book, The Destiny of Civilization: Finance Capitalism, Industrial Capitalism, or Socialism. This week’s podcast brings you the audio of that event.Although his book looks at three economic philosophies, the Q & A focused on contrasting the dynamics of finance capitalism and industrial capitalism. Michael makes the case that in its early days industrial capitalism promoted investment in public infrastructure and basic services, allowing industry to invest in development.Finance capitalism basically sought to break away and consume all of the public infrastructure. Most financial fortunes are made by privatizing the public domain – natural resources and public utilities yield fortunes in economic rent without private investment. This has led to the US, for example, turning over its economic planning to the financial sector.“The objective of finance capitalism, contrary to what's taught in the textbooks, is to make economies high cost, to raise the cost every year.”When asked about debt deflation, Michael explains that the increase in consumer debt leaves less and less money to be spent on consumption.“Right now, you're having the debt-ridden American economy being squeezed. More and more money is paid, not only for debt, but also for other overhead, like healthcare and various monopoly services that are not available to buy goods and services. Debt deflation is when the growth of debt exceeds the rate of growth of the economy. And that's true of every economy.”Since 1945, every recovery in the US and the other western economies has been accompanied by rising levels of debt, making each recovery slower.Michael talks about the current global political economy, oil prices, debt jubilees, monetary hegemony, and the US political parties. When asked for solutions, his answers might be troubling to some. It’s worth hearing him out.Michael Hudson is an American economist, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri–Kansas City and a research associate at the Levy Economics Institute at Bard College. He is a former Wall Street analyst, political consultant, commentator and journalist.

Rohan Grey always uses cool cultural references. Six minutes into the episode he brings up Tintin. Later we hear about Wile E. Coyote, Star Trek, Teletubbies and Wagnerian opera.The Tintin tale concerns a treasure hunt that required Tintin to find three maps; only when they were overlaid could he see the location of the treasure. Rohan Grey relates this to the critical juncture of law, political economy, and technology. He reviews the relationship of all three throughout the history of money.Rohan and Steve also revisit the (relatively short) history of the MMT community – what they got right as well as missed opportunities. Brett Scott was at the first MMT conference talking about privacy and the war on cash. These issues are more vital today than they were then, yet have never become part of the MMT canon, which tends to stick to the original hits, like the Rolling Stones still performing “Satisfaction” half a century later.“If crypto, quote/unquote, wins the public consciousness, I think that's a net loss for a lot of things MMT cares about. I'm anti crypto in that sense – as in capital C, crypto. What it stands for as a historical phenomenon right now is the empowerment of a group of people, the dominant strain of which is pro capitalist, pro massive wealth inequality, pro grift and fraud, pro right wing libertarian monetary theories, pro contempt of collective governance.”Rohan and Steve discuss how to organize around what is useful from the crypto space without defending it. The distrust of government is healthy – many are illegitimate and corrupt – but Rohan asks why the same critique isn’t applied to property rights. How can it be acceptable for Ted Turner to be a billionaire owning half of Montana? Why does the state become illegitimate only when it wants to tax him? Rohan suggests leaning into pockets of relevance. There’s value to be gained by understanding the opposition.Rohan asks our listeners to support #MintTheCoin and to check out the Freedom Box Foundation as well as the work being done with Creative Commons and copyleft.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

When you Google John Kiriakou, the descriptive label that pops up with his name is Whistleblower.John was an analyst and case officer for the Central Intelligence Agency during the anti-communist era and then the anti-terrorist era. (Where did all the communists go? Aren’t they a threat anymore? Were they ever? Those will have to be questions for another day.)He is also an author, activist, and co-host of Political Misfits on Radio Sputnik. He and Michelle Witte regularly have Steve on their show as a guest to talk about (what else?) macroeconomics. Now we get to hear his story, working with—and then against—the CIA.Of the 14 CIA agents who were offered to be trained in ‘enhanced interrogation’ techniques during the hunt for al-Qaeda in 2002, John was the only one who declined. He also came to be the only CIA employee to go to prison in connection with the torture program. He was charged with passing classified information to a reporter.In addition to sharing his personal experience, John talks with Steve about the history and role of the deep state, how it has transformed over the years, and both the public and political level of tolerance for it. If you still think power rests in the hands of our elected officials, you should listen to this episode.John Kiriakou is an author, journalist, and whistleblower. He is co-host, with Michelle Witte, of Political Misfits. Kiriakou was a CIA analyst and case officer. In 2007, he became the first U.S. government official to confirm that water-boarding was used to interrogate al-Qaeda prisoners, which he described as torture. In 2012, Kiriakou was convicted of passing classified information to a reporter and received a 30-month sentence.He is the author of Doing Time Like a Spy: How the CIA Taught Me to Survive and Thrive in Prison; The Convenient Terrorist: Abu Zubaydah and the Weird Wonderland of America's Secret Wars; The Reluctant Spy: My Secret Life in the CIA's War on Terror; The CIA Insider's Guide to the Iran Crisis.Find his work on johnkiriakou.substack.com@JohnKiriakou on Twitter

**Happy New Year from Real Progressives and Macro N Cheese. If you would like to help us continue to bring you great content, please consider becoming a monthly sponsor at patreon.com/realprogressives. Your contributions help pay for the tech platforms and equipment that keep this podcast alive.**This week’s episode is the recording of a recent RP Live webinar with Brett Scott, author of Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets.In terms of its politics, the digital money movement is largely only discussed by the mainstream media, ever ready to promote the interests of big finance and big tech. Brett makes the case that leftists and MMTers need to get involved. Those of us with knowledge of the monetary system are particularly well-situated to recognize potential minefields and see through lies that are being passed off as fact. For example, there is the notion of inevitability. Once the automobile was invented, it was only a matter of time before the horse cart would disappear. We’re also led to believe that the move to replace cash with digital comes from the bottom up—from ordinary people. We need only consider who is pushing this so-called cashless society. And who profits from it. Crypto itself is simply another commodity to be bought and sold with... money.Brett presents interesting ways of considering the war against cash and the future of money. In the second half of the episode, he takes questions from attendees. If you haven’t heard his interviews on Macro N Cheese, now would be a good time to do so.Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work on brettscott.substack.com@suitpossum on Twitter

All digital currency is not created equal. Its technology can potentially be used as a force for good or a force of evil. Robert Hockett joins Steve to discuss both. Let’s start with the evil. The collapse of FTX, one of the world’s largest crypto exchanges, is still sending shock waves through the mainstream and financial media. It seems that only MMTers are unsurprised by it or the chain reaction, as other crypto schemes are tumbling apace. Bob describes how the collapse follows the same pattern as the junk bond bubble of the 80s and the sub prime mortgage crisis in the aughts. Prices are driven up as more people crowd the market, eager to hop aboard a new investment opportunity. You don’t need a Ponzi to have a Ponzi scheme. And apparently you don’t need to produce anything of value in order to generate huge profits... for a while. “The irony is that in every one of these cases, there is a clue in the name of the product in question that ought to warn you. If it's called a junk bond, there's a reason for that word "junk" being used. And if it's called a sub prime mortgage loan or sub prime mortgage-based product, there's a reason for that “sub prime” term. Similarly with cryptocurrency or crypto assets, one of the most ironical names ever conceived for this kind of product. If the word "crypto" comes into it, then that's a pretty good tip-off that there's something non-transparent about it, that there's something opaque and occluded and difficult to understand about it.” Bob and Steve talk about the development of Central Bank Digital Currency, or CBDC, which will be as safe as a nation’s fiat currency—Bob likens it to the introduction of the greenback dollar in the 1800s. None of this is to say that we at Macro N Cheese approve of the Federal Reserve’s ideology or actions; a neoliberal system will have a neoliberal central bank. No big surprise there. Robert C. Hockett is an American lawyer, law professor, and policy advocate. He holds two positions at Cornell University and is senior counsel at investment firm Westwood Capital, LLC. His latest book is The Citizens’ Ledger: Digitizing Our Money, Democratizing Our Future. @rch371 on Twitter

**After the episode, visit our “Extras” page where you’ll find links to Bill Mitchell’s blog, books, MMT education course, and more. Every episode of this podcast is also accompanied by a full transcript. realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/**Usually when Steve and his guests talk about culture, they’re referring to that of neoliberalism. As Scott Ferguson says, neoliberalism isn’t just enmeshed in our popular and esthetic culture; it is our culture. “There’s no enmeshing; it IS neoliberalism—what in the Marxist tradition we call etiology, the kind of background assumptions and values that structure our innermost thoughts and feelings and desires and, you know, what makes us laugh, what makes us cry, what makes us horny. What makes us, you know... everything.”In today’s episode, our dear friend, Bill Mitchell, talks to Steve about Japanese culture, which predates neoliberal culture by eons. Bill has recently taken a fellowship at Kyoto University, giving him and his wife the opportunity to experience the day-to-day life of Japanese society while pursuing his research into their economy.Bill’s interest in Japan coincides with the start of his academic career:“As I was entering my first tenured position, Japan had the biggest commercial property collapse in history. It went neoliberal in the late 1980s and had an extraordinary explosion of debt, typically concentrated on commercial property in Tokyo and Nagoya and the big cities. And that collapsed in 1991.”Despite the huge decline in property values, Japan had just one negative quarter of GDP. He had to ask, “How the hell have they been able to avoid a deep recession and get out of this huge property market collapse?” The answer was found in the government’s response—providing fiscal support to the economy.“The fiscal deficits went up to 10% or 11% of GDP. And in historical terms, that was huge; that was sort of like wartime shifts in fiscal positions. So that's what started me on my Japanese research agenda and my interest in following Japan. Then I met Warren (Mosler) and we started the MMT project in the mid-90s... And Japan was my laboratory—my real-world laboratory.”Some suggest that the government’s fiscal behavior could be explained by the difference in culture. But the way the monetary system works is identical to that of the US or Australia.Throughout the episode, Bill and Steve continue to compare Japanese culture and economic policies with those of their home countries.We at Macro N Cheese are always looking for answers, but often the learning experience is more valuable when we come away with new questions. Throughout this episode, Bill and Steve compare Japan’s culture and economic policies with those of their home countries, yet they make no definitive statements about cause and effect.Japan has managed to maintain a high standard of living for its citizens—first-class health care, first-class public education, first-class public transport. Unlike the US, Japan does not see unemployment as the cure for inflation. Bill describes the many service workers in jobs that would make neoliberal bean counters pull out their hair—greeters in stores, parking guides, maintenance workers in Japan’s beautiful public spaces. These jobs are not busy work; they improve a community’s quality of life. Bill sees Japan as an ideal candidate for a job guarantee.Japan faces vast challenges, yet its monetary and fiscal policies continue to defy the pressured expectations of hedge fund speculators, austerity evangelists and self-styled experts (hello, Paul Krugman!) This demonstrates that mainstream macroeconomics is not knowledge, it is fiction. Only MMT has it right.Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop.@billy_blog on Twitter

Clint Ballinger is an economic geographer, a path he followed in search of answers to what he calls fundamental questions of political economy. Why did the Industrial Revolution occur in England and western Europe? What is the reason for the radically uneven distribution—radically unequal material well-being—around the world? It exists not only between countries, but within countries. As listeners to this podcast know, economics departments aren’t teaching this stuff.Modern economists take money out of the equation. How absurd is that?“You have incredibly complex mathematical models being developed all through the forties, fifties, sixties... but they don't discuss all the things about money that matter. Because as we learned in 2008, they didn't even have money or a banking system in their equations, basically. So that's a huge problem.…Regardless of how you get it, once you have some kind of basic monetary unit, everything that comes after that in a monetary production economy is what got ignored.”Steve and Clint talk about the history of money and David Graeber’s book, Debt: The First 5000 Years. Debunking the “myth of barter” and understanding the history of money allows us to break through the misconceptions of money at the root of the misguided political stances that abound in our society. We can’t fix what’s broken without this clarity.Money is a token, not a commodity. Steve likens it to a concert ticket; the little square of cardboard has no intrinsic value. Yet not a single politician gets this right.Clint takes the discussion into property rights—not the rights of the rentier class, but the state’s role in protecting an individual’s resources.“We always have to get back to the real economy. That's always the fundamental thing. We make things—goods and services. People use those goods and services. Money per se, it's all accounts, accounts are always property rights. Every account in the world is a claim on real resources in some way. So that's why it gets back to the very basic ideas of property rights.”Much of this interview connects to topics covered in past episodes with Fadhel Kaboub and Rohan Grey, among others. Links can be found in the “Extras” section on our website, where you will also find a transcript of the episode. realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/Clint Ballinger got his MA in Political Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he focused on modern uneven economic development and went on to specialize in the interpretation of global econometric data for his PhD in Geography at Cambridge University. His book, 1000 Castaways: Fundamentals of Economics, was published in 2019.@clintballinger on Twitter