Macro N Cheese

**Each episode of Macro N Cheese has an “Extras” section filled with information and links to resources related to topics touched on in the interview. Go to https://realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/ where you will also find a full transcript of the episode. Steve Grumbine’s guest is Steve Hall, a Professor Emeritus of Criminology who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. The discussion covers a range of political and economic issues, including class consciousness and unity among the working class in the US and Europe. They discuss the historical fear and suspicion of the working class by the political and economic elites. They talk about the impact of identity politics and the need for unity among the working class. They also touch on the influence of neoliberalism and the weaponization of identity struggles.  They highlight the disconnect between what is presented in the news and the needs of the working class. They look at the concept of natural laws in economic models and how they often ignore the role of human decisions. The conversation ends with a discussion on the limitations of the current political system and the need for agency and alternative avenues of power for the working class.  Steve Hall is a Professor Emeritus of Criminology. He worked at the Universities of Teesside, Northumbria and Durham. He is the author of Criminal Identities and Consumer Culture, and Theorizing Crime and Deviance, and co-author of numerous others.  @ProfHall1955 on Twitter 

Bryce Greene was recently arrested during campus protests in support of Palestine. Steve, who believes ignoring the slaughter in Gaza is akin to ignoring the holocaust, invited him to describe his experience and insights into the student encampments and the anti-Zionist movement in the US. Bryce is a writer and organizer currently working towards his PhD in Informatics. His work focuses on media and geopolitical analysis. He emphasizes the importance of dismantling the myths and narratives surrounding American support for Israel and the oppression of Palestinians. He believes that studying Palestine brings understanding of the broader forces and processes that define American Empire. He goes into the impact of social media and alternative platforms in challenging the traditional narratives and gatekeepers that shape the public’s understanding. Or misunderstanding. They talk about the brutality of the Israeli state, including land grabs, settlements, and military violence against Palestinians. Bryce expresses frustration with the manipulation and gaslighting that occurs when the Holocaust is used to justify these atrocities. They also touch on the topic of university complicity in supporting Israel, criticizing universities for partnering with companies that enable genocide. Bryce discusses the use of counterterrorism measures against peaceful protesters and the surveillance of activists. He warns of the growing infrastructure for surveillance and repression, which could have serious consequences for organizing and activism. Bryce Greene is a writer, student and organizer based in Indiana. His work focuses on media and geopolitical analysis. He has appeared in Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting, as well as many other venues. He is currently pursuing a PhD in Informatics. @TheGreeneBJ on Twitter 

**On Tuesday evening we’re holding a listening party and informal discussion of this episode. Join us for Macro ‘n Chill. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZArcuqsqD0tH92MxVmJIqj4PHtojQGgFl2l Grassroots political organizer Jay Ponti talks with Steve about his book, "Be the Revolution: How Occupy Wall Street and the Bernie Sanders Movement Reshaped American Politics." Jay maintains that there’s a vibrant network of people doing great work that isn’t covered by corporate media.  “Politicians are not heroes who can save us. We have to save ourselves. That's what the Occupy Wall Street movement taught me. We can't rely on someone else to make the changes we want to see. We have to get organized, we have to get active, and we have to fight for our own rights.” Jay shares his experiences in Occupy Wall Street and the motivations behind it. He describes how the movement emerged as a response to the 2008 financial crisis and the fraudulent practices of financial institutions. He also touches on the Bank Exit campaign, which aimed to divest from banks funding the Dakota Access Pipeline. He speaks of the challenges and successes of the campaign and its connection to the broader movement for social and economic justice. Steve and Jay discuss the need for grassroots movements and an inside-outside strategy to bring about real change. Jay Ponti is a grassroots political organizer, trainer, and consultant who has participated in some of the most important social movements of the last decade, including Occupy Wall Street, Standing Rock, and Bernie Sanders’s two presidential campaigns. He is the author of "Be the Revolution: How Occupy Wall Street and the Bernie Sanders Movement Reshaped American Politics," Find his work at jayponti.com @jayponti on Twitter 

Aaron Good, a political scientist and historian, talks with Steve about the US political system and power dynamics. They explore the roles of the deep state and oligarchy in policy-making and the suppression of democracy.“This is a very low point in the history of democracy. Perhaps the lowest point ever, if you put it in a historical context. The United States was never really a democracy. Democracy isn't so much an either/or proposition, I would say it's a continuum ...“Even in the generic sense of political rights and universal suffrage and basic 'one person, one vote' rules, the US comes up short. The electoral college is a ridiculous system. There are barriers to getting on the ballot.”The conversation includes a discussion on the role of empire and the pursuit of global dominance in shaping US politics and policies. Aaron argues that the US prioritizes its imperial ambitions over domestic issues, resulting in a loss of political power for most of the population.Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. Find his podcast at patreon.com/americanexceptionFollow Aaron’s work at americanexception.substack.com/@Aaron_Good_ on Twitter

In a previous episode of this podcast, David Van Deusen spoke about the radical ten-point program adopted by the Vermont State Labor Council, AFL-CIO. This time, he and Steve discuss David’s new book, Insurgent Labour: The Vermont AFL-CIO from 2017 to 2023.They look at the importance of working-class unity, the need for unions to be more democratic and inclusive, and the need for a new approach to labor organizing. They touch on the problems of racial oppression, police unions, global labor movements, healthcare, and the futility in relying on the political parties. David's book provides insights and lessons from their experiences in Vermont, offering a potential roadmap for a more effective and inclusive labor movement in the US and abroad.They discuss the global race to the bottom and international solidarity of the working class.“We can't have the US government foreign policy defining our foreign policy as a labor movement. We need to look for those groups that are truly engaged with struggles against the capitalists, against the elite, against the billionaires. And we need to make one on one direct relationships with them and support them where we can ... We should be reaching our hands out as a labor movement, as a US labor movement, saying 'what can we do to support you?' Because if they win there, they're going to set the example that could spread to other regions of the Middle East, Europe, and aspects of the United States. And shouldn't we be supporting democracies, especially those that actively invite labor activists, labor unions, to be part of the molding of the society that they labor within?”Check out the other interview with David:https://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-186-the-power-of-organizing-with-david-van-deusen/David Van Deusen is a longtime organizer and militant union leader. He served two terms as President of the Vermont AFL-CIO (2019-2021 & 2021-2023) and is part of the working class left United! Slate. He is also a member of Democratic Socialists of America and a past member of Anti-Racist Action. His new book from PM Press is called Insurgent Labor: The Vermont AFL-CIO 2017-2023.

When most of us think about bail, we focus on the financial burden it presents to the accused. This week’s guest is Jeffrey J. Clayton, Executive Director of the American Bail Coalition. He talks to Steve about the complicated anti-democratic trap that is our criminal justice system.Jeff explains that across the US there are plans in place to eliminate bail. (One would think that’s good news. One would be wrong.) In reality, these plans result in greater violations of civil liberties. Bail is being replaced by pre-trial incarceration and risk assessment tools using computer algorithms (AKA profiling?)In his dissent in United States v. Salerno, Justice Thurgood Marshall warned that we are quickly moving to a criminal justice system where "a person innocent of any crime may be jailed indefinitely." Marshall called the bail system a shortcut to conviction.Steve and Jeff discuss the most obvious ways to address crime – by providing jobs, housing, and education or training. Some caught up in the criminal justice system need recovery treatment. In the US, those healthcare services have become punitive. Jeff refers to them as the dragnet of the state.Steve speaks of addressing the material conditions that contribute to criminal behavior. He brings up the concept of a federal job guarantee and talks about resource allocation and macroeconomic justice.Jeffrey J. Clayton serves as the Executive Director of the American Bail Coalition (ABC). He holds a B.B.A. from Baylor University, an M.S. in Public Policy from the University of Rochester, N.Y., and a J.D. from the Sturm College of Law, University of Denver.@ambailcoalition on Twitter

**Check our website for upcoming events such as book clubs, RP Live webinars, and the Tuesday evening discussion group, Macro ‘n Chill. https://realprogressives.org/This week’s episode is the audio track of a recent webinar with historian Esha Krishnaswamy. Esha is now living in Russia to research and write a people’s history of the Soviet Union.The discussion begins with the story of the First World War and the Bolshevik Revolution. The formation of the USSR as a proletarian state shook the capitalist nations of the West to their core. As a result, the Soviet Union was regularly under threat economically, militarily, as well as propaganda warfare.Esha talks about the history of the Soviet Union and its ultimate dissolution against the will of the majority. She delves into the impact of its fall on various countries and the global economy. She looks at the shock doctrine years of Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s and the effects of such extreme austerity and privatization on the average citizens. She then goes into the Putin era and the move towards social democracy.Finally, she touches upon NATO, the IMF, and the war in Ukraine.Esha Krishnaswamy is a writer and media critic, whose focus is on history, foreign policy, and Modern Monetary Theory. She hosts Historic.ly and Late Nights with Lenin.Find her work at historicly/substack.com@eshaLegal on Twitter

“Assange is being targeted by the US government because he doesn't conform to the dominant culture of the US prestige media. He's not going to be invited to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. He's not going to be given a Pulitzer. He's not going to be treated as one of them.”Steve’s guest is journalist Kevin Gosztola, author of Guilty of Journalism: The Political Case Against Julian Assange. Kevin has been advocating for freedom of the press since the George W. Bush administration and the imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.Steve and Kevin discuss the lack of available unbiased information, particularly regarding events like the ongoing genocide in Gaza and the presidential election. They look at the collusion between mainstream media outlets and the government, the demonization of individuals who counter the mainstream narrative, and the targeting of journalists and newsrooms.They highlight the efforts of the US empire to prevent information from reaching the public and discuss the significance of the documents published by WikiLeaks. They also discuss Assange's current situation and the deterioration of his health.Kevin Gosztola is a journalist, press freedom advocate, and the author of Guilty of Journalism: The Political Case Against Julian Assange from Censored Press and Seven Stories Press. He publishes The Dissenter Newsletter at TheDissenter.org and has spent the past 10-15 years reporting on Assange, WikiLeaks, the war on whistleblowers, press freedom, and government secrecy.@kgosztola on Twitter

**RP Book Club is beginning a new series, Sunday April 7, 14, and 21, at 3pm ET/12pm PT. Register once for all three sessions. realprogressives.org/event/rp-book-club-the-communist-manifesto/2024-04-07L. Randall Wray talks with Steve about the concept of value in the context of MMT. Randy discusses the labor theory of value and the liquidity premise theory, saying both approaches are critical to understanding how money works in a capitalist economy.Randy looks at the historical development of economic thought and the neoclassical revolution of the 1870s, which aimed to prove that a free-market economy could reach equilibrium without considering money. He explains why this just isn’t so. He compares and contrasts the intentions and conclusions of Keynes and Marx. He emphasizes the need to look beyond surface phenomena and understand the structure of the capitalist economy to determine the value of money.The conversation also goes into the importance of the federal job guarantee in setting wages and stabilizing the value of labor.L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at Bard College and Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute.www.levyinstitute.org

A hundred years ago, John Maynard Keynes predicted we would see a massive expansion of growth and productivity under capitalism. Bingo. He got that right. He said this amazing efficiency would result in a shorter work week with far more leisure time for everyone. Oops. Not so much. The structure of capital ownership will never permit it.Bill Mitchell’s blog post, Keynes Was Wrong Because He Failed to Consider Class Conflict, was the inspiration for this episode. Bill talks with Steve about many of the truths about capitalism economists and historians get wrong, beginning with the idea that capitalism freed workers from the bonds of feudalism.Bill covers the social democratic politics of the postwar era and how the ruling elites then ensured that government would only serve as their agent. He and Steve take a critical look at the dangerous power of institutions like the World Bank and IMF. Bill explains why he supports degrowth instead of “green growth.”Bill believes progressives shouldn’t be working to reform the system; they must work to change it. Coming from the Marxian tradition, he says MMT is only part of the story.“Yes, it provides a first class lens into monetary operations but it doesn't have a theory of power. And you have to add that ideological layer for it to be, in my view, a purposeful framework for advancing systemic change. Just to have an MMT understanding provides you with no additional tools to work out systemic change.”Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/@billy_blog on Twitter

This episode of Macro N Cheese is dedicated to Steve’s mom, Joan Grumbine. Her kindness, love, and unwavering dedication to her family and community will be deeply missed. May she rest in peace.In his first solo episode, our host and jefe, Steve Grumbine, recounts the story of his political transformation from conservative republican to passionate MMT advocate, to self-identified socialist.He begins the episode talking about his recent experience dealing with the medical system as his mother’s health declined. Both parents’ deaths illustrate the fact that a for-profit system cannot provide the kind of healthcare we need and deserve.Awareness of class discrepancy runs through his story as he develops an awareness of the need to combine MMT with an understanding of capitalism.It's impossible to separate Steve’s political development from his work on this podcast. Many of the guests affect him profoundly. In the episode he ties these insights together to create a radical and comprehensive worldview.Steve Grumbine is the founder and CEO of Real Progressives and Real Progress in Action. He is a project manager by profession.@sdgrumbine on Twitter

** Be sure to check the Real Progressives website’s calendar for upcoming events. On Sunday, March 17th at noon ET/9am PT, we’re hosting a webinar, RP Live with Esha Krishnaswamy: Putin’s Russia. On Tuesday evenings, 8pm ET/5pm PT, come to Macro ‘n Chill, where we listen to the most recent episode of this podcast and discuss it with the community. https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/ “Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon, in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.” Milton Friedman This quote by the grandaddy of neoliberal economics is from 1963. Some in the mainstream have been dining out on it ever since. According to our guest, author and blogger Brian Romanchuk, neoclassical economics relies on mathematical models and fail to capture the complexity of real-world inflation. He highlights the importance of understanding the supply and demand dynamics in setting prices and explains that inflation can be influenced by factors such as supply chain shocks and changes in the labor market. Brian also points out that it’s not enough to blame inflation on corporate greed; after all, corporations are always driven to maximize profits. He mentions the Cantillon effect, which suggests that the first recipients of newly created money benefit from inflation as prices go up, while the poor and working class bear the brunt of higher prices down the road. Brian and Steve discuss inflation constraints on fiscal policy. Brian argues that while extreme fiscal policies could lead to inflation, most of the time, fiscal policy is relatively moderate and does not have a significant impact on inflation. They criticize the government for not trying to set prices and argue that the government often follows the private sector's lead, making things worse. Brian Romanchuk is the author of several books, including Modern Monetary Theory and the Recovery. He is the writer and publisher of bondeconomics.com. His writings can be found in his substack, The BondEconomics Newsletter. @RomanchukBrian on Twitter

The American people see through mainstream claims of “the greatest economy ever.” They are confronted by evidence to the contrary every day.Steve and his guest, economist Yeva Nersisyan, take a deep dive into the current US economy, looking at the repercussions of the high costs of education, healthcare, and housing.They discuss different perspectives on the causes of inflation and talk about Isabella Weber’s work on “sellers’ inflation” and its relationship to monopoly power. They argue that the drive for corporate profits, leading to abusive price-setting, has been the primary force behind inflation.They also talk about the effect of fiscal policy on income inequality, revealing politicians’ contempt for the working class.Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

** Reminder: You are invited to listen to and discuss this episode with friends from Real Progressives on Tuesday, March 5th. Find the Zoom link at https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/“If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness.” — Victor HugoDaniel Conceição talks with Steve about Argentina’s economic immiseration under newly elected president Javier Milei.Milei’s aggressive cuts to public spending don’t address the root cause of inflation in Argentina. Because of the country’s dependency on the US dollar, it is mired in a foreign debt trap. Daniel and Steve highlight austerity policies bolstered by the macroeconomic illiteracy propagated by media and politicians (shout out to RFK, Jr).They discuss the current political landscape and touch upon topics such as genocide, neoliberalism, economic conditions, and the role of public spending in promoting prosperity.Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Unicamp Institute of Economics, a professor at the Institute of Research and Urban and Regional Planning (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is formerly president of the executive board of Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

**To discuss this episode among friends, come to our listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, on Tuesday February 27th at 8pm ET/5pm PT. For the link go to our Events Calendar https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar“But fortunately for us, human nature is precisely the capacity to be creative; to imagine a different way of living together and to bring that into being through our conscious and deliberate actions by working together, by fighting for a different world against the class power that is interested in perpetuating things as they are. And so we can, through acting on the world to transform the world, we also transform ourselves. That's a basic principle of Marxist theory and Marxist politics. By acting on the world to change the world, we simultaneously transform ourselves through the act of struggle, to the act of building collective solidarity, we become different and we also make the world different.”Steve invited Stephen Maher for this interview to talk about some of the basic lessons of Marxism. While you may not agree with everything you hear in this episode, certain fundamentals of capitalism are beyond refute.The discussion explores the relationship between capital and the working class, and the concept of class struggle as the key to understanding US history of the past century, especially the postwar period and the development of neoliberalism. To truly make sense of it all we must look at some fundamental truths about capital. It is very fluid and dynamic. Capital is capable of continuously evolving and restructuring. In doing so, our social conditions change as well.They also discuss the challenges and obstacles in achieving socialism, the history of anti-communist sentiment in the US, the importance of class struggle unionism, and the need for grassroots organizing and building solidarity within the working class.Stephen Maher is an Assistant Professor of Economics at SUNY Cortland, and co-editor of The Socialist Register. He is the co-author of The Fall and Rise of American Finance: From J.P. Morgan to BlackRock with Scott Aquanno, and the author of Corporate Capitalism and the Integral State: General Electric and a Century of American Power.@SteveMaher18 on Twitter

** If you haven’t yet come to our Tuesday night listening party, this is the week to do so. Join the Real Progressives community as we dive in and discuss this episode. The registration link is posted on our Events Calendar prior to each Tuesday’s session — it’s usually up by Saturday. Look for Macro ‘n Chill. https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/This week Steve talks with our friend, economist Fadhel Kaboub. Followers of this podcast will recognize some of the themes we regularly focus on, including the debt trap facing countries of the global South, and the need for climate action and transformative economic development. Current plans under consideration are extractive and paternalistic, continuing the patterns of colonial exploitation.At the root of the external debt problem are three major structural issues: food deficits, energy deficits, and manufacturing deficits. Fadhel breaks down each of these problems, tracing the origins and suggesting how solutions will benefit not just Africa and the global South, but the international working class.“So, the type of thinking that we need to have today is one of two options. Do we work towards reforming this global economic architecture that was designed for these purposes? Or do we build a parallel, alternative economic architecture from the ground up? I'm of the opinion that the countries that dominate the current economic architecture will fight to death to keep their supremacy.”Steve and Fadhel also discuss MMT, degrowth, and the job guarantee. They look at the role China could play in Africa.Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (on leave), and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is also a member of the Independent Expert Group on Just Transition and Development and serves as senior advisor with Power Shift Africa.@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

“We've been trying to get people to stop saying ‘mainstream media.’ I’ve got to do it now too, for the same reason that you just described: because there's nothing mainstream about 90 percent of the media being controlled by 6 private, for-profit corporations or 5 other big tech companies. There's nothing mainstream, or Main Street, about the ideas and the views that they platform. It's corporate media or establishment legacy press, and then there's independent media which means very little.” — Mickey HuffProject Censored was founded by a communications and sociology professor in the 1970s. He asked himself how it was that Richard Nixon was elected by a landslide despite ample coverage of his misdeeds and corruption in the independent alternative media. And why did it take so long for the establishment press to catch up?Steve’s guest Mickey Huff discusses the work of Project Censored today and the current state of the press. They talk about how the corporate media's coverage is based on American exceptionalism and propaganda efforts, as well as the receding role of independent local outlets. They emphasize the importance of critical media literacy and how the media landscape has become more complicated with the rise of social media. They touch on the influence of big tech and billionaires on the media, and look at it as another example of corporate exploitation of workers.Mickey Huff is an educator, radio broadcast producer/host, podcaster, author/editor, the current director of Project Censored, and the president of the nonprofit Media Freedom Foundation. Since 2009, he has coedited the annual volume of the Censored book series and has contributed numerous chapters to these works since 2008. His most recent books include United States of Distraction: Media Manipulation in Post-Truth America (and what we can do about it), co-authored with Nolan Higdon, and Project Censored’s State of the Free Press In 2024, co-edited with Andy Lee Roth. Mickey is currently a professor of social science, history, and journalism at Diablo Valley College where he co-chairs the History Area and is chair of the Journalism Department.https://www.projectcensored.orgOn Twitter:@mythinfo@ProjectCensored

“...the question of how to pay for it is a very complicated question but has much less to do with money than it does to do with social structure and industrial structure. And the quicker we can get away from centering the taxpayer as the goose that holds the golden egg money and more towards the questions of labor and industrial structure that are really going to affect how we provide healthcare, I think we're going to be in a better place.” — Rohan GreyIn 2022, Real Progressives helped our coalition partners, March for Medicare for All, organize a three-day educational summit on the healthcare crisis in the US. This week’s episode is from the panel we put together on paying for national improved Medicare for All, featuring Geoff Ginter, Yeva Nersisyan, and Rohan Grey.The panelists discuss:The meaning of currency user vs currency creatorThe money story and order of operationsFinancial restraints vs resource constraintsThe importance of deficit spendingPrivate vs public investment and inflationary constraintsPotential impact of policies on the economyThe truth about the so-called national debtSpecific to Medicare for All, they address the problem of transitioning workers out of administrative jobs in the insurance industry. They explain why Medicare for All is likely to be deflationary rather than inflationary. And they look to history to suggest ways of attracting healthcare workers to underserved locations.Geoffrey Ginter is a New Jersey based certified medical assistant, activist, and MMT evangelist. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute at Bard College.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

**Transcripts and “extras” are available for each episode of Macro N Cheese on our website: https://realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/This podcast’s followers know we cover a range of topics from political theory to international events, but at some point, we always circle back to Modern Monetary Theory.This interview with Warren Mosler was originally recorded for “Let’s Get Ready to Grumble,” Steve’s show on Status Coup.As with any Mosler episode, this one is appropriate for both MMT newcomers and old-timers. They discuss interest rates, inflation, and the money supply. Warren goes over the key principles of MMT, emphasizing that government spending precedes taxation as well as the role of taxation itself.The conversation also touches on rising fuel prices and the role of Saudi Arabia as monopoly supplier setting the price of oil.Warren Mosler is an American economist and theorist, and one of the leading voices in the field of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). Presently, Warren resides on St. Croix, in the US Virgin Islands. An entrepreneur and financial professional, Warren has spent the past 40 years gaining an insider’s knowledge of monetary operations. @wbmosler on Twitter

When we hear the term “blockchain,” we immediately think of libertarians and capitalists. Crypto bros. They have been dominating that space but they don’t hold a monopoly on it, and our guest, Joshua Dávila, AKA The Blockchain Socialist, refuses to cede the ground. In this episode he and Steve discuss the need for bridging the gap between technical knowledge and social understanding because blockchain technology can be a valuable organizing tool for socialists.Joshua suggests creating collective wallets and experimenting with democratic input in economic institutions as a starting point. He also speaks of the potential of blockchain technology in creating a new economic system that challenges the existing power structures.The space of what is economically possible is much wider than many realize. (As MMTers, we agree.) Joshua believes the tools provided by digital systems can be used to create post-capitalist systems that compete with the existing globalized digital economy. He challenges the notion that the tools used in libertarian economic systems cannot be leveraged for post-capitalist ones.Check out his blog, The Blockchain Socialist.Joshua Dávila is an author, expert on blockchain technology, and the creator of The Blockchain Socialist blog and podcast. His book, Blockchain Radicals: How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It, was published in 2023. https://theblockchainsocialist.com/@TBSocialist on Twitter

One of the many exciting things about a federal job guarantee is its transformative potential in reshaping society's understanding of work and value. It can provide a dignified job for people in every possible situation with every ability and disability. Of course that’s not all we love about the FJG. In this episode, Tyler Emerson and Steve also discuss the job guarantee’s preventative possibilities in tackling social and environmental crises.Tyler is one of the younger generation of MMT scholars. He works with our good friend Pavlina Tcherneva at the Economic Democracy Initiative (EDI). We recommend everyone check out their website, jobguarantee.orgThe conversation touches on the idea of money as a public resource and the need to challenge the mentality of scarcity that dominates society. The job guarantee will address poverty and provide opportunities for individuals to have agency and dignity in their work.Tyler Emerson is an economist working as a research assistant for the OSUN Economic Democracy Initiative at Bard College in New York’s Hudson Valley. His research on the link between unemployment and disability culminated in his thesis The Job Guarantee as it Relates to People with Disabilities. Tyler's area of interest continues to be the history and future of people with disabilities in the American labor force and how macroeconomic and sociological trends affect their economic position.@EDI_tweets

Before the 1980s, mass layoffs were often tied to economic recessions. Today, they are shrewd corporate strategy. Modern mass layoffs are connected to leveraged buyouts or stock buybacks. Steve’s guest, Les Leopold, explains how the process works and how it came to be through the maneuverings of Wall Street and the two political parties.Les is the author of Wall Street’s War on Workers. He and Steve talk about the very real impact on people’s lives, from the coal miners of Mingo County, West Virginia, to Steve’s personal struggles after Verizon’s 2009 lay-offs. They discuss organizing, the value of a job guarantee, and intersectionality within a class analysis.Les Leopold is executive director of the Labor Institute, which he co-founded in 1976. He has written several books on the finance sector’s looting of America. His upcoming book, Wall Street’s War on Workers, is being published by Chelsea Green Publishing. Follow his substack: https://substack.com/@lesleopold1@les_leopold on Twitter

In his third appearance on Macro N Cheese, Dan Kovalik talks with Steve about his upcoming book, The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care. As with many of our guests, the episode is more of a conversation – a passionate one – than an interview.“First of all ... this conflict did not begin on October 7th, though we're led to believe it did. This conflict – well, it depends on when you want to say it started – but certainly a good starting place is 1948 in the Nakba, when 700,000 to 900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by Israelis who came in to take over their land and their homes. And the takeover of land and homes has continued since that time.Gaza itself has been penned in with a giant fence since about 2007 in what some refer to as the largest open-air prison in the world. Others call it the biggest concentration camp in the world — where Israel has regulated the water they get, the food they get. And they've kept all those things, intentionally, to a minimum.”They both argue that the violence of the oppressor (Israel) cannot be equated with the violence of the oppressed. Any resistance against oppression is justified.While condemning the Zionist government of Israel, they stress the culpability of the US government. They discuss the lack of difference between Democratic and Republican presidents in terms of their foreign policies, particularly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In a conversation about current American and international politics, Dan and Steve agree on a number of things, including the need for disruptive targeted protests in addition to sustained movements, a long-term commitment to resistance, and international solidarity.Where they disagree, however, is on the matter of so-called taxpayer money. As always, Steve makes sure to correct the record. Several times.Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He is the author of several books, including The Plot to Scapegoat Russia, Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance, and the upcoming The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care.@danielmkovalik on Twitter

“We cannot talk about colonialism, green or otherwise, about dismantling it, about decolonization, about environmental and climate justice in the Arab region, and turn a blind eye to the ongoing genocide, the ethnic cleansing, the mass displacement, the mass slaughter and the repression of Palestinians perpetrated by the racist apartheid settler colonial state of Israel with the active support and abetting by imperialist powers — from the United States to the European Union, to France, to Germany, and others.”In this webinar from our RP Live webinar series, Dr. Hamza Hamouchene addresses the fraudulent and exploitative reality behind “green energy.” His presentation comes from the recently published book, Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region. The presentation is followed by questions from attendees.Hamza’s analysis of regional and global climate and energy politics is illustrated by real-life examples from Indonesia, Morocco, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and other nations.He explains how the commodification of nature and the environment is masked under the guise of proactive 'green' efforts — while the consequences include increased privatization and plundering of resources in the Global South.Hamza stresses the importance of climate reparations, climate justice, and decolonization, but without an analysis of capitalism and a commitment to systemic change, solutions will always be inadequate and doomed to failure.Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.@BenToumert on Twitter

According to Wikipedia, “Enshittification, also known as platform decay, is the pattern of decreasing quality of online platforms that act as two-sided markets. Enshittification can be seen as a form of rent-seeking. Examples of alleged enshittification have included Amazon, Bandcamp, Facebook, Google Search, Quora, Reddit, and Twitter.” Wikipedia also tells us the term was coined by today’s guest Cory Doctorow.Steve and Cory discuss his new fiction book, The Lost Cause, which explores truth and reconciliation in a polarized future and then delve into his nonfiction work, particularly The Internet Con: How to Seize the Means of Computation, which focuses on the power and abuses of major corporations, especially in the tech industry. They talk about the concept of "platform decay" (enshittification) and how platforms have become the dominant life form on the internet.Cory explains another term, "acidification," which describes the pathology of this decay and the inevitable outcome when platforms are not regulated. He uses Facebook as a case study to illustrate how platforms lock in users, withdraw surplus from them, and then squeeze them for profit. He discusses the lack of competition, regulation, labor power, and user agency in the tech industry, leading to the current state of affairs.They also touch on the importance of adversarial interoperability and the need to destroy big tech rather than trying to fix or tame it. The conversation highlights the urgent need for change and the importance of hope in creating a better future.Cory believes that in times of crisis, ideas can move from the periphery to the center and become the basis for change.Cory Doctorow is a Canadian-British blogger, journalist, science fiction author and blog editor. He is an activist in favor of liberalizing copyright laws and a proponent of the Creative Commons organization, using some of its licenses for his books. Some common themes of his work include digital rights management, file sharing, and post-scarcity economics. Craphound.com@doctorow on Twitter

Fadhel Kaboub is back for his lucky 13th episode. He talks with Steve about the concept of climate reparations and its significance in tackling the climate crisis. True reparations go beyond financial compensation; they must include transferring technology, repairing our ecosystem, and restructuring the global financial and trade systems.The global North must not shirk its historic responsibility and disproportionate impact of climate change on the Global South. Fadhel and Steve discuss the need for truth and reconciliation as a starting point for reparations. They highlight the significance of addressing the structural issues that perpetuate harm. Fadhel emphasizes the need for transparency and decentralized systems in order to prevent corruption and ensure that reparations reach those who need them most.Fadhel Kaboub is an Associate Professor of economics at Denison University and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Check out his recent work at https://justtransitionafrica.org/@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

The consequences of income inequality extend far beyond economic disparities. Stephen Bezruchka focuses on its effect on health. Stephen is on the faculty of the School of Public Health at University of Washington and is author of Inequality Kills Us All. Much of this interview looks at these issues in the US.Stephen directly ties inequality to mortality rates, disease, and early childhood development. It’s interesting to hear a physician who doesn’t blame our individual choices and habits; he lays our health problems squarely at the feet of the political and economic system.The profit-driven nature of healthcare in the US prioritizes financial gain over the health of individuals. Stephen describes the role of the lobbying industry and private corporations contribute to the perpetuation of this system.The conversation concludes with a discussion on the concept of social murder and structural violence.Stephen Bezruchka (pronounced bez rootch ka ) is faculty in the School of Public Health at the University of Washington in Seattle. He worked as an emergency physician for 30 years and also set up a teaching hospital in a remote district in Nepal where he supervised the training of Nepali doctors. His current work is in making better known what produces health in a population and why the United States has worse health outcomes than some 50 other nations despite spending almost half of the world's healthcare bill.His book: Inequality Kills Us All: COVID-19's Health Lessons for the World is published by Routledge.@SBezruchka on Twitter

Charles Derber, author of "Dying for Capitalism", talks with Steve about the intersectionality between capitalism, environmental destruction, and militarism. He argues that the capitalist system, particularly in its neoliberal form, is inherently connected to the threats of environmental catastrophe and war. He emphasizes the historical context of these connections, tracing the shift from water-powered capitalism to coal and then oil as a means to maintain control and avoid public opposition. He highlights the role of the military in perpetuating climate change and the destructive consequences of war on the environment.Charles addresses the skepticism and cynicism often associated with the idea of changing capitalism but he believes change is possible through diverse strategies and alliances. He draws lessons from historical movements, such as the abolitionist movement, the Bolshevik revolution, and the reinvigorated labor movement. He touches on social media, which can be used to control and manipulate, but can also be a powerful tool for organizing and mobilizing activism.Charles Derber is Professor of Sociology at Boston College and has written 26 books - on politics, democracy, fascism, corporations, capitalism, climate change, war, the culture wars, culture and conversation, and social change. His most recent books include Dying for Capitalism, Welcome to the Revolution, Moving Beyond Fear, Sociopathic Society: A People's Sociology of the United States; Capitalism: Should You Buy It?

David Fields talks to Steve about “Economists for Palestine,” the statement released by the Union for Radical Political Economics (URPE). They emphasize economists’ responsibility to take a stand against the genocide being perpetrated against the Palestinians. They look at the connection between Zionism and the global capitalist system, debunking misinformation while highlighting the difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism.We at Macro N Cheese urge our listeners to circulate the statement. https://urpe.org/2023/11/08/economists-for-palestine/Economists for PalestineWe stand in unwavering solidarity with the Palestinian people. Since October 7th, 2023, over two million people have faced a brutal onslaught by the Israeli military and state. They have been forced to flee with nowhere to go as homes, shelters, evacuation routes, border crossings, hospitals, places of worship and entire neighborhoods have been bombed.We mourn civilian deaths in both Israel and Palestine. Israel’s retaliation for the October 7th incursion continues, however, and over 9,000 Palestinians have been killed in the ongoing assault so far. More than 8,000 people have been killed in three weeks in Palestine. The estimated number of children among the casualties is over 3,000 and UNICEF estimates that about 420 children have been killed or wounded daily. Even reporters have been threatened with violence or killed.Since the Nakba 75 years ago, the Palestinian people have endured profound suffering, forced displacement, and a brutal 16-year-long inhumane siege and blockade in Gaza. Human rights organizations have characterized Gaza as ‘the largest open-air prison’.We also condemn the role of the U.S. state in supporting the ongoing siege in Palestine, its support for the horrors inflicted on Gaza, and its refusal to support a humanitarian ceasefire. It is imperative that we do not turn our backs on the devastating impact of this violence on people’s lives. The fight for Palestinian liberation and a fair, enduring peace in the region is intricately linked with the liberation and resistance efforts spearheaded by indigenous, colonized, and oppressed communities historically and worldwide.We stand in support of efforts by the Palestinian people to sustain themselves economically through control over their land and their labor. We stand in solidarity with the anti-Zionist Jewish communities that have been raising their voices against the carpet bombing of Gaza, for the liberation of the Palestinian people, and who are working for a just, equitable, and durable peace.We urgently call for:1. An immediate ceasefire2. Immediate restoration of food, fuel, water, and electricity to the Gaza Strip3. Cessation of all settlement activity and disarmament of all settlers4. Immediate delivery of humanitarian aid on the scale required5. Respect towards the Geneva Conventions by all parties concerned6. An end to apartheid and strident moves toward a democratic future for all people regardless of race, religion, gender identity and nationalityIn addition, we strongly uphold the principle of academic freedom, especially in light of the current global climate where individuals in educational institutions worldwide face termination, doxing, and harassment for speaking up against the atrocities of the Israeli state and in support of the civilian population in Gaza. Neglecting this commitment would be a betrayal of our scholarly and moral obligations.November 8th, 2023David Fields is a political economist from Utah; his work centers on the intricacies concerning the interactions of foreign exchange & capital flows with economic growth, fiscal & monetary policy, and distribution, whereby critical attention is paid to the notion of endogenous money. He also delves into the political economy of regional development to study patterns with respect to the nature of housing, social stratification, and community planning.@ProfDavidFields on Twitter

This week’s episode is the second half of Steve’s interview with Hamza Hamouchene about his book, Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region.Steve and Hamza agree on the importance of reckoning with the realities of the current capitalist imperialist system, which has proven to be a failure in addressing the most crucial needs of people and planet. Hamza argues that alternative visions for a better world already exist – he himself is an eco-socialist – but the challenge lies in implementing them and building the necessary alliances and coalitions of working people, both at the national and global levels.The conversation also delves into the specificities of the Arab region, which has elements of authoritarian and military dictatorships due to its subordinate insertion into the global capitalist economy and its role as a key nodal point in global fossil fuel regimes. Hamza highlights the need for a just energy transition that takes into account the control and ownership of fossil fuel resources and the potential for green renewable energies.Hamza calls for diversifying tactics and strategies, organizing and building power to challenge imperialism and the decarbonization by dispossession.Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator, and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.@BenToumert on Twitter

When we talk about the climate crisis, common wisdom says we’re all in it together. That implies that everyone is responsible, and everyone needs to do something about it. Our guest, Dr. Hamza Hamouchene, attacks this notion unequivocally: “The historical responsibility, of course, in the climate crisis lies within the industrialized capitalist West.” Most of the impacts are felt by communities in the global South, in countries that have been impoverished since colonial times. As developing nations they are additionally burdened by international financial institutions when, in fact, they are owed climate reparations.Hamza is co-editor of Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region. He talks with Steve about the urgent need for climate justice and decolonization, while suggesting what a just transition would entail.They emphasize the critical need for support of the Palestinians, whose cause must be included in discussions of colonialism, climate justice, global trade, and energy systems.Part Two of this interview will be released next week.Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region.@BenToumert on Twitter

This week’s episode is another webinar from our RP Live series: Inside a Failed State, with Michael Hudson.Michael prefers a Q&A format. Attendee questions revolved around US political economy, domestic and global. He discusses topics such as healthcare, de-dollarization, and the impact of economic policies on the working class. He emphasizes the need for a change in economic philosophy and highlights the government's ability to create money for social programs.A common Hudson theme is the difference between the production and consumption economy, or what he calls the real economy, and the financial sector of assets and liabilities, of loans and debts, which is superimposed on the real economy.“Money is spent in the real economy, but bank credit is spent really just to increase the debt overhead in the economy — the overhead of mortgage debt, of corporate debt, and speculative debt.”A Michael Hudson episode always sparks lively, sometimes contentious, comments. His insights on finance, politics, and class power dynamics give fans and detractors alike something to chew on.Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Support him at patreon.com/michaelhudsonFind his work at michael-hudson.com

As a society we are conditioned to believe we can f*ck with nature, with the living world, but the economy is immutable. We dare not try to change it. As MMTers we say: hahahahaha... *sob* These two assumptions explain why we’re hurtling towards ecological catastrophe and why austerity has become a way of life. Steve’s guests this week are Colleen Schneider and Christopher Olk. They are co-authors, with Jason Hickel, of the paper, How to Pay for Saving the World: Modern Monetary Theory for a Degrowth Transition. Any listeners who have paid attention to Real Progressives’ journey over the past couple of years will be excited to add Colleen and Christopher’s insights to their intellectual arsenal. They are those rare scholars who manage to be both realistic and optimistic. (They are not suggesting that the right slate of politicians will tweak capitalism to make it heal the the planet and the population.) They discuss how both MMT and the degrowth movement challenge the myth of scarcity. They look at the disparities between the Global North and South. They emphasize the interconnectedness of ecological and social issues, and the need to address both the predation on the Global South and the climate crisis. They talk about non-reformist reform and the ways in which addressing national economic policies can be played out at the local level to radicalize people. By understanding the power dynamics within the financial system, MMT can empower and mobilize, allowing us to attack multiple problems as if they were one. Which they kind of are.*****Colleen Schneider is a PhD student and research assistant in the Institute for Ecological Economics at the Vienna University of Economics and Business and is a lecturer at Torrens University. She has a BA in Physics from UC Berkeley and MSc in Socio-Ecological Economics and Policy from WU. Her research focuses on the political economy of monetary and fiscal policy in a social-ecological transformation. Her recent work brings an MMT-informed lens to degrowth scholarship. She teaches courses in social ecological economics, and the intersection of money, society, and environment, and has also worked and published in the field of environmental justice. @ColleenFights on Twitter Christopher Olk is a PhD candidate in political economy at Free University Berlin. His current research focuses on the links between international monetary power, offshore finance, and fossil fuels. Christopher is also active in the climate justice movement. @christopher_olk on Twitter

Carlos García Hernández is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory. He lays out the five goals of fiat socialism:Full employmentFull and prudent use of material resourcesThe guarantee of the five essentials to every citizen: food, housing, clothing, health services, and educationSocial security at all major exposed points in the social structure (eg, old age, sickness, accident, temporary unemployment, and childbearing)Labor standards, to be assured by labor unionsCarlos maintains that any society achieving these five goals at the same time and permanently should be called socialist, no matter the size of the private sector.Steve and Carlos discuss the philosophical foundations of both fiat socialism and Marxism. They also look at the role of the IMF and the possibilities for monetary sovereignty in developing nations.Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory.@Carlos_G_H_ on Twitter Or X

This week’s episode welcomes back Fadhel Kaboub, a valued friend of this podcast. He and Steve discuss the concept of just transition and the problems with carbon markets as a solution to climate change. They stress the injustice of historic polluters buying carbon credits to continue polluting while displacing vulnerable communities in developing countries. It is yet another capitalist solution. The current global financial architecture, established during colonial times, is neither designed to address the climate crisis nor to promote sustainable prosperity.They emphasize the need for systemic change and a new vision for Africa and the global South that prioritizes food sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and industrial policy. They talk about the power dynamics between labor and capital, the role of governments in perpetuating inequality, and the importance of mobilizing and organizing for change.They highlight the narrow constructs that society is allowed to consider, which prevent true transformation and progress. They emphasize the importance of recognizing our interconnectedness and the need for what Fadhel calls “a movement of movements.”Fadhel Kaboub is an Associate Professor of economics at Denison University, the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. Check out his recent work at https://justtransitionafrica.org/@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

A head of state whose economic policies promote austerity and fiscal responsibility is:ConservativeProgressiveN/A (not applicable)Daniel Conceição is with us for his third visit to Macro N Cheese. He and Steve discuss the failures of both right and left governments. Some broad strokes of Brazil’s historical patterns are not so different from those in the US. The last left(ish) president, Dilma Rousseff, abandoned her Leninist roots and hopped aboard the privatization train. It wasn’t enough to protect her from impeachment, however.It’s easy to see parallels between Bolsonaro and Trump as well as the lesser evilism we’re facing in both our countries today. Despite President Lula's progressive rhetoric, his economic policies prioritize deficit reduction. His administration is committed to delivering fiscal results to financial markets over public investment in education, healthcare, and other social services.Daniel touches on the “dollarizing” of Argentina's economy and explains that it can only exacerbate instability and conditions of scarcity.Daniel and Steve talk about the insights gained from Modern Monetary Theory and agree that building power beyond elections requires a paradigm shift in our thinking.Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org), where he currently serves as president, and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

“The impossibility of economic catch-up does not imply that the citizens of the global South are condemned to suffer from poverty and inequality. It only implies that capitalism has nothing to offer as a prospect of a decent life for the vast majority of humanity...”In this webinar from our popular RP Live series, Ndongo Samba Sylla tells us of the challenges facing Africa through the story of Thomas Sankara and breaks down what Sankara meant when he told the people to "live as African.” Ndongo suggests that the way forward combines the insights provided by MMT with Sankara’s plans for African liberation and development. He calls it MMT-ing Sankara or Sankara-ing MMT. Since some see MMT as apolitical, Ndongo is making a crucial point. He also goes into detail as to why cancelling international debt, though necessary, is not enough.After his presentation, Ndongo takes questions from attendees on the role of BRICS and potential benefits for Africa in a multi-polar world. He touches on the CFA franc and explains why economic exploitation is the most vicious form of imperialism.Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist. He has previously worked as a technical advisor at the Presidency of the Republic of Senegal and was Programme Manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. He has recently been appointed the Africa Director for Research and Policy at IDEAs (International Development Economics Associates)He is the co-author of Africa’s Last Colonial Currency: The CFA Franc Story and author of The Fair Trade Scandal. Both books can be ordered through the RP Bookshop on our website: realprogressives.org@nssylla on Twitter

Understanding how monetary sovereign governments create and spend money means looking at the Treasury department and the central bank or, in the US, the Federal Reserve.Economist Eric Tymoigne explains two approaches to understanding the relationship: the consolidated and the collaborative, or cooperative, version of the Treasury and the Fed.The consolidated approach merges the Fed and the Treasury into one entity and analyzes the implications of this merger on public finance. It emphasizes that taxes and government securities don’t fund the government, but rather, the government spends by crediting accounts. (This comes as no surprise to MMTers.)The consolidated approach also highlights the importance of injecting reserves into the economy before taxes can be collected or government securities can be sold. The coordinated approach recognizes the separate roles of the Treasury and the Fed but emphasizes the extensive coordination between the two entities.Eric walks us through these operations and touches on the relationship with private banking and the role of reserves on the international stage.Listening to this episode, you can’t help but conclude that the ways in which the US manages monetary operations are not consistent with budgetary needs. It’s hard to see how it has anything to do with provisioning our society.Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon, and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.@tymoignee on Twitter

When someone associates Modern Monetary Theory with left or right wing politics, they’re signaling they know nothing of MMT and are simply associating it with some of its proponents. MMTers are political, MMT is not. Regarding degrowth, this week’s guest, Bill Mitchell, explains:“The way I think about it is that MMT is compatible with deep, hard industry pollution and massive growth if you want it to be. And it is also compatible with a highly sustainable strategy to reduce our reliance on mass consumption and to divert our economic activity, which we normally think is gross domestic product, to divert that into sustainable products. In other words, radically change the composition of our output.”In other words, MMT neither supports nor opposes the degrowth agenda. In this episode, Bill describes degrowth as a value system and strategic approach to the future of humanity on the planet.MMT, on the other hand, is a lens or framework for understanding the capacities of currency issuance and the consequences of using that capacity. He and Steve highlight that MMT is compatible with both growth-oriented and sustainable strategies, and that degrowth policies would require significant investment from the state. They also discuss the challenges and obstacles to implementing a degrowth agenda, including the resistance of powerful vested interests and the potential for military conflict.The conversation also delves into the historical and political factors that have shaped the current domestic and global politics, including the counterattack by corporations and the wealthy against social democratic majorities in the early 1970s. They discuss the role of ignorance and media manipulation in perpetuating the current system and the importance of education and knowledge in empowering individuals and fostering solidarity movements.Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/@billy_blog on Twitter

“I think within every labor struggle is a kernel of a broader transformation of society. So, it's interesting because Harry Bridges, who was the longtime leader of the longshore workers on the West Coast from the 1930s to the 1960s, when he talked about strike, he said every strike is a mini-revolution.”On the eve of the strike authorization vote by American Airlines flight attendants, Joe Burns spoke with Steve about the labor movement, unions, and class struggle. Joe, a labor lawyer and negotiator, has been a guest on Macro N Cheese twice before. His focus, then and now, is on the importance of class struggle unionism and the need for union leadership that is willing to engage in the broader fight, confronting power at its core.“When you think about it, every labor struggle has inherent in it the struggle over control and power. And who's running society … For that reason, it tends to inherently have this radicalism buried within it. And I think our task as class struggle unionists is to help uncover and further that.”Steve and Joe discuss the role of the corporate media in minimizing and obfuscating issues involving labor and class. They look at the ways in which both monetary and political policy are used to tame workers and reinforce the power of corporations.Joe Burns is a veteran union negotiator and labor lawyer with over 25 years' experience negotiating labor agreements. He is currently the Director of Collective Bargaining for the Association of Flight Attendants, CWA. He graduated from the New York University School of Law. Prior to law school he worked in a public sector hospital and was president of his AFSCME Local. He is the author of Strike Back, Reviving the Strike, and Class Struggle Unionism.@MarchOnTheBoss on Twitter

Activists and organizers know that effective communication depends on connecting with people’s real needs. But we’re often baffled when people don’t act in their own interests or don’t identify others’ interests as intersecting with their own.To grapple with some of these questions, Steve turns to Stephanie Preston, Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan and author of The Altruistic Urge: Why We’re Driven to Help Others. They delve into in-group versus out-group dynamics and the challenges of creating altruistic urges within different socioeconomic groups.The conversation explores structural solutions to address societal issues, such as universal basic needs and improved access to healthcare. Stephanie argues that eradicating precarity and providing basic survival needs would shift the mindset towards seeing individuals as deserving of support and compassion.Of course, there’s still the question of achieving these solutions. That’s where our activism comes in. For some of us, this episode may raise new questions. How do we level up to meet large scale problems? Does building empathy have a place in political organizing? Does altruism?Stephanie D. Preston is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Michigan. She earned Master’s and PhD degrees in behavioral neuroscience at the University of California at Berkeley, followed by a postdoctoral fellowship in the Department of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine. She has been a faculty member at U-M since 2005. She uses an interdisciplinary approach to examine how the brain evolved to guide decisions through emotions, in a variety of domains, including to feel empathy, offer altruistic help, support the environment, and to consume and keep material goods. Her book, The Altruistic Urge: Why We Are Driven to Help Others (2022), is published by Columbia University Press.@prestostwit on Twitter

RP Book Club spent four weeks on The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. Tcherneva. Each week featured a different guest expert who led the discussion and answered questions. Listeners to this podcast will recognize their names, including Pavlina herself, Fadhel Kaboub, Ben Wilson, and Rohan Grey. We were also honored to have Bill Black and June Carbone join in.For this episode, Macro N Cheese is releasing the audio recording of all four sessions. Since it is unusually long, the time codes for each segment are included below.[00:03:09 - 01:55:41] Session OneGuest: Fadhel KaboubIntroductionChapter 1, “A Public Option for Good Jobs”Chapter 2, “A Steep Price for a Broken Status Quo”[01:55:41 - 03:17:41] Session TwoGuest: Pavlina TchernevaChapter 3, “The Job Guarantee, a New Social Contract and Macroeconomic Model”Chapter 4, “But How Will You Pay for It?”[03:18:44 - 04:41:57] Session ThreeGuest: Ben WilsonChapter 5, “What, Where, and How: Jobs, Design, and Implementation”[04:41:57 - 06:29:43] Session FourGuest: Rohan GreyChapter 6, “The Job Guarantee, the Green New Deal, and Beyond”Use this link to order a copy of The Case for a Job Guarantee, by Pavlina R. TchernevaDr. Fadhel Kaboub is Under-Secretary-General for Financing for Development of the Organisation of Educational Cooperation (OEC). He is an Associate Professor of Economics (on leave) at Denison University and President of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@FadhelKaboub on TwitterPavlina R. Tcherneva is an Associate Professor of Economics at Bard College, the Director of OSUN’s Economic Democracy Initiative, and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute, NY. She specializes in modern money and public policy. Find her work at pavlina-tcherneva.net@ptcherneva on TwitterBenjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.@autogestion77 on TwitterRohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon, and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

“...Because we recognize that taxes are not a funding operation, there's this myth that people who support MMT don't want to use fiscal policy to promote equity. Of course, taxes are redistribution … Things have gotten way out of hand, so taxation is also intended to promote equity, to affect distribution and allocation. Resource allocation.”Mat Forstater was on this podcast four years ago (episode 21!) recounting the history of MMT. He described his early days at Levy Institute and UMKC, his relationship with Warren Mosler and Pavlina Tcherneva, and how they established MMT as interdisciplinary, expanding into law and humanities. If you haven’t listened to that episode, we urge you to check it out.This week, Mat talks to Steve about the role of taxation in the economy and its relation to government spending. It’s not enough to understand how taxes create a demand for the nation’s currency and give it value. Mat always reminds us to consider the total impact of any policy — from using taxation to encourage or discourage behavior, to its ripple effects and unintended consequences.They touch on the importance of decoupling taxation from federal programs and the need to design tax policies that consider the indirect effects on society. They also talk about the potential deflationary impact of programs like Medicare for All, and whether a job guarantee can address unemployment and provide quality jobs.Dr. Mathew Forstater is a professor in Economics at the University of Missouri/Kansas City and the Research Director of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. having received a Ph.D. at The New School for Social Research. His research focuses on the History of Economic Thought, Economic Methodology, Political Economy, Public Policy, Economics of Discrimination, Environmental Economics, African and African American Economic History. @mattybram on Twitter

The title of this week’s episode is taken from an article to be published in September’s Monthly Review. The author, Jason Hickel, talks to Steve about the topic in his third visit to the podcast.Before we look at the double objective of ecosocialism we must analyze the double crisis we’re facing – ecological and social. Both are caused by the same underlying issue: the capitalist mode of production.Capitalism creates an almost perfect circuit that begins and ends with commodification and enclosure. Well, actually, it ends with massive profits... and that double crisis we mentioned. With essential goods and services outside our control, we have no bargaining power when it comes to the cost of living. We are helpless in the face of artificial scarcity and price-gouging. Faced with the high price of necessities we are forced to work longer and harder in order to simply survive. And of course, the more we need to work, the less control we have over our wages. The capitalist class makes out at both ends.There are at least two undeniable problems with this system. It wreaks havoc on the environment and is inconsistent with democracy, if you care about that sort of thing.“This is where our analysis has to ultimately lead, and the underlying pathology is basically that capitalism is fundamentally not democratic.”Even those of us who live in the US, Europe, or other countries with nominally democratic electoral systems have no illusions about their undemocratic nature.“More importantly, when it comes to the system of production, which all of us are engaged in every day, on which our livelihoods and our existence depends, not even the shallowest illusion of democracy is allowed to enter.”After identifying the quagmire, Jason and Steve talk about a solution. Jason lays out the necessary policies that ecosocialism should provide: universal public services, a public works program, and the job guarantee. Jason even suggests the possibility of post-capitalist firms and post-capitalist markets, and describes how they might operate in such a system.We can’t have a Jason Hickel episode without a discussion of degrowth and whether that concept applies to the exploitation of the Global South. Nor is there a means of achieving our goals without domestic and international class solidarity.“We can't underestimate the scale of the struggle that is really involved here. I think we have to take inspiration from successful social movements that have occurred in the past. There's this amazing line from Thomas Sankara, the revolutionary leader of Burkina Faso that goes 'we are the heirs of the world's revolutions'.Pretty much every good thing that we have is the result of revolutionary forces that fought to bring that to be. Everything from literally the minimum wage, as pitiful as it is, to the weekends, to whatever admittedly meager forms of democracy we get to exercise. These are all the benefits of revolutionary movements that have at least won some concessions in the past, and in some cases against extraordinary odds.”Dr. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, author, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He is Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Visiting Senior Fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and Chair Professor of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo. Health.Jason's research focuses on global political economy, inequality, and ecological economics, which are the subjects of his two most recent books: The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions (Penguin, 2017), and Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World (Penguin, 2020), which was listed by the Financial Times and New Scientist as a book of the year.@jasonhickel on Twitter

It will come as no surprise to our listeners that countries of the Global South are mired in a foreign debt crisis and that default is directly tied to the lack of monetary sovereignty.Our friend Ndongo Samba Sylla, a Senegalese development economist, talks to Steve about the situation, how it came to be, and how it can be overcome.Countries of the Global South usually are tied to debt in a foreign currency for a number of reasons, including balance of payment constraints and the capture of export income by transnational corporations. Some debt was carried over from colonial rule. Ndongo emphasizes that these countries are often trapped in an extractive economic model. Their resources are exploited by foreign companies, leading to a cycle of debt and dependence.Debt cancellation, while absolutely necessary, is not enough to address the structural issues that perpetuate the crisis. Ndongo mentions ecological debt — the extraction and exploitation of natural resources from the Global South by the Global North. He highlights the need for a fundamental change in the domestic economic model of accumulation to eliminate the role of debt as an instrument of domination.Ndongo also traces the history of structural adjustments after attempts at reform in the 1970s, beginning with the proposal for a New International Economic Order (NIEO) that challenged the imperialist system. The austerity we witness today arose from the reaction to that agenda.Ndongo Samba Sylla is a Senegalese development economist. He has previously worked as a technical advisor at the Presidency of the Republic of Senegal, and is Programme Manager at the West Africa office of the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation. He is the co-author of Africa’s Last Colonial Currency: The CFA Franc Story and author of The Fair Trade Scandal.@nssylla on Twitter

This week we’re bringing you all three sessions of the Real Progressives Book Club on L. Randall Wray’s Making Money Work for Us.RP Book Club is run by our volunteers with guest experts leading the discussion and taking questions from attendees.  This is much longer than our usual episodes of Macro N Cheese, so we’ve included the time codes for each session. [1:43] — Session One Guest economist Eric Tymoigne  Chapter 1, What is Money? Chapter 2, Where Does Money Come From? [1:14:35] — Session Two Guest economist Yeva Nersisyan  Chapter 3, Can We Have Too Much Money?  Chapter 4, Balances Balance  Chapter 5, Life is Full of Trade-Offs [2:43:33] — Session Three Guest economist Randy Wray Chapter 6, The MMT Alternative Framework for Policy  Chapter 7, MMT and Policy Use this link to order the book: Making Money Work for Us: How MMT Can Save America by L. Randall WrayEric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College in Portland, Oregon; and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. @tymoignee on Twitter. Yeva Nersisyan is an Associate Professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College and a Research Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute. L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at Bard College and Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute. 

“People talk about campaign finance being the problem as to why ‘progressive’ politicians can't get elected. But that's more of an effect of this rather than the cause, because let's say, Citizens United, the court ruling which now allows corporations to pretty much give unlimited donations to candidates. That's just the most recent evolution of a system which precludes all possibility for radical change.” Our guest this week is 1Dime, a content creator on YouTube and the podcast, 1Dime Radio, and a graduate student in political science. The interview is another stop on Steve’s journey to find the intersection of Modern Monetary Theory and Marxism. 1Dime is one of the few socialists – or democratic socialists – who accept MMT.Our audience understands that capitalism is antithetical to democracy. 1Dime suggests that the US is unique in that it is very liberal in what it allows its citizens to do in the private sphere, or civil society, without allowing for real political power, which he defines as the ability of a social class to actualize its interests. Steve and 1Dime compare the political history of the US with parliamentary democracies, discussing what that means for the working class. Agreeing that elections have limited value for American socialists, they look to alternatives. Tony brings up the idea of dual power: establishing power within the state while engaging in revolutionary actions outside it, building media institutions as well as organizations that can reach out to labor. Tony runs the YouTube channel "1Dime" and the podcast 1Dime Radio. On his main channel, 1Dime does video essays and mini-documentaries that involve the political economy, history, geopolitics, leftist theory, and various socio-political topics. 1Dime is known most for his videos involving MMT and Marxian thought, such as "The Problem With Taxing The Rich" and "Why Billionaires Prefer Democrats." His most recent video series was on the History of Post-Soviet Russia and the Putin regime. Each video serves as both an educational analysis of a different topic and a unique artistic experiment. Check out his YouTube channel, 1Dime and his podcast, 1Dime Radio, on Apple, Spotify, and most podcast platforms. @1DimeOfficial on Twitter

Is the US a failed state? Well, with a paralyzed economy, debt deflation, and a ruling elite waging class warfare on labor, what else should we call it?Economist Michael Hudson often writes and talks about the US role as a global force bending the rest of the world to its will. Or trying to. This week he and Steve bring the focus home, looking at the state of affairs in the US; breaking down the causes and devastating effects of the massive transfer of income and wealth from the working class to the 1% — specifically the finance, insurance, and real estate (FIRE) sectors.Michael slices through false promises of re-industrialization after half a century of brutal policies by both Democrat and Republican administrations.“America cannot re-industrialize without reversing this whole philosophy of post-industrial society as a class war against labor. You can't have both. You can't have a class war against labor and re-industrialization, with the labor unionization that goes with it. That's the conundrum.”It’s well known that the people want public spending on healthcare, student loan forgiveness, and other social programs. The episode looks at the complementary roles of both parties in opposition.“The pretense is that the government has to borrow from bond holders. Because the bond holders decide what is economically worthwhile. Well, what does this ignore? That the bond holders are the 1%, and what they find economically worthwhile isn't using the government to benefit living standards, benefit labor, and to provide social services.”Should either party feign to support a policy and pass legislation benefiting the people, the Supreme Court is there to stop it in its tracks, citing the original intent of the Constitution.“Because the Constitution was drafted by authors who feared democracy. Who said that we have to make sure that we have enough checks and blocks, so that the mob cannot rule and take away the power of we, the bond holders, and landlords, and slave owners.”There are certain themes Michael Hudson visits again and again, strengthening connections and adding nuance to a comprehensive class analysis and global political economy. If you’re lucky, he’ll pepper it with a few snarky observations as well.Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst, Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Support him at patreon.com/michaelhudsonFind his work at michael-hudson.com

In this episode, David Correia and Tyler Wall, co-authors of Police: A Field Guide, lead a webinar about policing in the US.The common narrative about the police is intentionally misleading. Without a class analysis and an understanding of history, it will remain a problem with no solution. Policing isn’t a side-show to capitalist political economy. It’s part of the main stage. Far from engaging in enforcing the law and fighting crime, the police are a coercive force, with origins as slave patrols, colonial militia, and strike-breakers.Addressing possibilities of reform or abolition, the point is made that attempts at reform only serve to further maintain the legitimacy of the police. Reform does not address the monopoly on violence — a violence that is non-negotiable and non-reciprocal. Reform feeds into the myth that we hold the police accountable. Abolition, on the other hand, does not mean absence; it looks at possibilities for a different kind of world. Can this be done within the capitalist system?David Correia is a professor of American studies at the University of New Mexico. He writes about violence, law, and race under capitalism.Tyler Wall is an associate professor in the Department of Sociology at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. His areas of interest include critical police studies; state violence and racial capitalism; law & society, race and class.Correia and Wall are co-authors of Police: A Field Guide (Verso)

If you’ve recently chatted with a well-informed liberal – the kind who reads the NY Times or watches PBS NewsHour – you’ve heard encouraging things about the economy. You’ve heard that Biden’s doing a good job. Unemployment has gone down, wages have gone up. Why can’t you be happy about it all?To celebrate all this good news, we brought back our friend, Yeva Nersisyan, associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College, research scholar at the Levy Institute, and frequent collaborator with MMT OG Randy Wray.Yes, unemployment rates are lower, but we know those numbers don’t tell the true story. Or have you already forgotten our episode with Pavlina, just two short weeks ago? Yes, wages have gone up. But so has inflation. And in the race between inflation and wages, inflation is winning. Speaking of which, our Macro N Cheese family knows that one thing worse than inflation is the Fed’s cure for it.In this episode, Steve and Yeva look at the disconnect between the ongoing immiseration of the working class and the rosy scenario painted by politicians, pundits, and economists. At least one of those groups should know better. They discuss the looming student debt crisis, and the effect of the Fed’s interest rate hikes on student loans.When discussing MMT-informed solutions, Yeva warns:“You have to be consistent — whether it's the Trump tax cuts, whether it's the social security question. And you have to consistently say: the question of taxes and government spending, it should not be about deficits, should not be about debt, it should be about: is this the right thing for the economy? Is this what the people want? Is this what the people need? That's what you need to start with. And just because you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, which I do too, but I don't want to tie it to things like social security, because I think that's just a losing argument, and that's just not true.”MMT points toward answers, if anyone is asking.Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.