For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

Stories come in many forms: in the reports we see in the news, the TV shows and movies that light up our screens, from books to toys and so many other places. New York Times bestselling author Brit Bennett is here to discuss the ways that Black stories are told and the ripple effects they have across American culture. She shares insight into her life as a young author and how she’s used her writing as a way to figure out the way she feels about different topics—like what it means to “perform race,” which she wrote about in her latest book called The Vanishing Half. Brit dives into the stories she’s looking to create in the world—ones that show the human experience of what it means to struggle and the ways we experience hope and joy and love. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom | Sign up for your trial at http://noom.com/forthelove ThirdLove | Find your perfect-fitting bra, and get 10% off your first purchase at https://thirdlove.com/forthelove Feetures |Go to http://feetures.com/, and use code FORTHELOVE to get $10 off your first pair of Feetures To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What does it mean to build the world in a way where every single person, no matter their color, gender, ability or religion has access to security and opportunity? That’s a question inventor and entrepreneur Jessica O. Matthews has spent much of her life asking. Jessica is the CEO of Uncharted Power, a company looking to build sustainable infrastructure in the world—which Jessica launched when she was just twenty-two years old! She shares the legacy of curiosity and hard work her parents passed onto her, and why having countless hmm moments leads to that one a-ha! moment. Jessica and Jen hash out the opportunities the world has left on the table of innovation and why Jessica’s place at several intersections—a Black woman who’s a dual US/Nigerian citizen—helps her recognize developments that are still possible for parts of the world that typically don’t receive investment. Because as Jessica says: “I have the ability to not see the world as it is but to see the world as it should be. That's something that would not have happened not only if I wasn't just Nigerian American, but if I wasn't a woman of color.” * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at http://betterhelp.com/forthelove KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month plus FREE shipping on any crate line at https://kiwico.com/forthelove “2 Hearts” movie | Mark your calendar—“2 Hearts” is in theaters only nationwide on October 16! https://2heartsthefilm.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Having access to learning is a portal to opportunity, a key to unlocking your dreams and leaving doors open for those who come after you. That’s what education has been for Dr. Monique Morris, an author, scholar, justice educator and die-hard Prince fan who, in sixth grade, found herself at a fork in the road. She got into a fight with a boy who’d provoked her. And instead of suspending her, expelling her, or arresting her and pushing her away, Dr. Morris’ teachers reconnected her to her learning community—a key moment in the life of a girl who’d been dealing with sexual abuse and violence in her home. This moment of restoration paved the path for Dr. Morris to go on to earn a doctorate in education. Others in Dr. Morris’ situation haven’t been as fortunate, and find their studies interrupted by disciplinary action and a descent down the slippery slope known commonly as the “school to prison pipeline,” where they are pushed out of the education experience and criminalized by administrators. Dr. Morris uses her own education and experience to advocate for Black and brown students, encouraging schools to look at themselves as places of healing and restoration, not punishment, so that more students of color can become the scholars they are meant to be. Because no person is “unrecoverable,” and the important“freedom work of education begins when teachers ultimately see themselves as healers. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Rothy’s | Check out all the amazing shoes and bags available right now at http://rothys.com/forthelove Jenni Kayne | Get 20 percent off your first order! Go to http://jennikayne.com/, enter code FORTHELOVE at checkout. “2 Hearts” film | Only in theaters October 16! https://2heartsthefilm.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Want a sneak peek into the book club of your dreams? Then allow us to present: the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! From time to time, we’ll drop in with what we’re reading in hopes you’ll join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com—because we *know* you’ll love it. This month, we read the gorgeous bestselling novel The Storyteller’s Secret by lawyer-turned-writer Sejal Badani. Sejal gives us a behind the scenes look at what it was like to write a fiction story that’s deeply rooted in her own family history, and how examining the lives of her ancestors helped unravel her emotions about her own upbringing. What began as a way to break free from family secret-keeping became a way for Sejal to explain her heritage and history to her children. Writing Storyteller also became a method of healing, and Sejal shares how exposing the most vulnerable parts of who we are can help create a better world for someone else. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Jen’s Fierce Mask | Get the cutest mask ever at jenhatmaker.com/shop Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join our sisterhood today at jenhatmakerbookclub.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cultivating a healthy mind is essential for our entire well-being. Psychologist and theologian Dr. Chanequa Walker-Barnes joins us For the Love of Black Lives series to help us unpack how the anxiety and trauma carried through generations of Black Americans affects the flourishing of communities of every stripe (and newsflash: the trauma we experience can be passed down through four generations after us). For so long, Black women have been praised as “strong,” and they absolutely are. But when we only view Black women as unshakeable “superwomen,” we take away their right to vulnerability, their right to care for themselves, and their right to be cared for by someone else. And instead, we hand them a standard that’s impossible to achieve—which, as anyone knows who’s tried to achieve something that can’t be attained, causes shame and depression. Dr. Chanequa describes the effects of living in a community where anxiety is normal for everyone. As she says, “I was never taught to think of what I had as anxiety, even though now I realize, on both sides of my family, there’s anxiety.” She explains why it’s vital for Black women and men to have access to Black mental healthcare providers, so clients can feel truly seen and heard, and receive the true care they need. And above all, Dr. Chanequa reminds us that every Black woman, child, and man is worthy of self-care. They are worthy to notice and treat their pain and anxiety, so they can flourish in wholeness. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at http://betterhelp.com/forthelove Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial, plus free postage and a digital scale without a long-term commitment! Go to stamps.com, enter FORTHELOVE To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Black culture is central to American culture—we simply don’t have America without having the Black experience, born of slavery and systemic racism and white supremacy, of physical and mental and emotional pain. But through generations, Black women and men have passed down stories given from their mothers and grandmothers. They’ve cooked and sang and danced and played the most beautiful music. They’ve wrote and dreamed and created. Black culture has inspired us for hundreds of years as it has woven its way into the tapestry of American life. And today, we’re going to talk about the richness of it all with Dr. Tanisha C. Ford, a cultural critic and professor of history at CUNY. Dr. Ford shares the artists and icons that shaped her world as a young Black woman growing up (everyone from her own mother and her leather jackets, to the music of Aretha Franklin and TLC, Roberta Flack and Mary J. Blige). Dr. Ford shows us how looking deeply at culture helps us see the threads of politics and society woven within. We learn why cultural appropriation is tied to systems of exploitation. We see why we need to shift our eyes away from history books that haven’t centered important Black pioneers like Anna Julia Cooper and Ida B. Wells, why everyone needs to read words from thinkers like James Baldwin and Audre Lorde. We see how Shirley Chisholm paved the way for Kamala Harris. We see the beauty and strength of artists like Nina Simone and Billie Holiday, and how they birth artists like Alicia Keys and Janelle Monáe. And through it all we see how new forms of technology have carried Black voices to new corners of the world for decades, planing the seeds for social media to blossom into a powerful force for the change that we’re seeing today. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Author School | Reserve your spot today at https://authorschool.com/jenhatmaker Noom | Sign up for your trial at http://noom.com/forthelove Jenni Kayne | Get 20% off your first order! Go to https://jennikayne.com, promo code FORTHELOVE FabFitFun | Use coupon code FTL for $10 off your first box at https://fabfitfun.com #fabfitfunpartner To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Though many of our country’s systems of care desperately need an overhaul, there’s one system in particular that could improve greatly to help Black Americans: healthcare. It might be unimaginable that we might get lesser care, for example, if we found ourselves in a medical emergency or were giving birth to our child. But Black women and men find themselves in these situations often, where healthcare professionals aren’t listening to their needs or taking time to understand their health concerns, and this sometimes leads to disastrous consequences—even death. These healthcare gaps are part of a feedback loop where many Black Americans find themselves. Many times, it starts with a huge imbalance in economic resources, which leads to a lack of access to healthy food, gyms, nutritional education, and as our guest today says, “places that are considered well.” Christina M. Rice is a wellness expert and chief experience officer of OMNoire, a social wellness community for Black women and women of color dedicated to living well. Christina shares about her own wellness experiences as a Black woman, and how finding yoga helped her realize the need for wellness spaces where Black women and women of color feel seen and welcome. Christina describes why it’s so important for everyone to prioritize the health of Black women and men. Tackling healthcare inequity may be daunting, but siblings everywhere must speak up and do our part to amplify voices of color so that Black bodies are allowed to flourish. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Author School | Reserve your spot today at https://authorschool.com/jenhatmaker BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at http://betterhelp.com/forthelove Jen Hatmaker’s FIERCE Mask | Get yours right now at https://jenhatmaker.com/shop KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month—plus FREE shipping on any crate line—at http://kiwico.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

God created a beautiful world, filled with people who share love, creativity, friendship and hope in all kinds of ways. For thousands of years, some have tried to use religion to wield power and authority over people around the globe, claiming “their” way was the “right” way to gain access to God. That’s how the seeds of religious trauma are sown. And through generations, we’ve seen members of the white American Christan church push Black and brown people away from the center of the church’s stories in an attempt to gain control over those cultures. But as justice educator and equity consultant Alicia Crosby reminds us, we gain so much when we center stories that have been pushed to the margins, when we allow ourselves to be curious about ourselves and other cultures. Alicia shares her own history in the church as a Black queer woman, and how, after her “burn it all down” phase, she’s learned to embrace the beauty of who she is and how she chooses to express her faith in God’s love for her. Jen and Alicia dive into why it’s important to create protective spaces for affinity groups of all kinds (everything from parents, to race and cultural groups, to LGBTQ+ spaces), and why sitting down at the table is the most equalizing force in our universe. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! Author School | Reserve your spot today at authorschool.com/jenhatmaker Rothy’s | Check out all the amazing shoes and bags available right now at rothys.com/forthelove ThirdLove | Go to thirdlove.com/forthelove to find your perfect-fitting bra, and get 15% off your first purchase! Jen Hatmaker’s FIERCE Mask | Get yours right now at jenhatmaker.com/shop To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Want a sneak peek into the book club of your dreams? Then allow us to present: the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! From time to time, we’ll drop in with what we’re reading in hopes you’ll join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com—because we *know* you’ll love it. This month's book has been an over-the-top experience for all of us. We read No Happy Endings by Nora McInerny, and it’s resonated from top to bottom in our community. Nora makes a living talking to people about life's hardest moments, and she speaks from experience. She lost her second baby, her father, and her young husband over the course of six weeks when she was 31 years old. Yet, she’s chosen to channel her grief into two bestselling memoirs and a stellar podcast called Terrible, Thanks for Asking. She’s a master storyteller who brings heart, transparency, and even levity to the most difficult and uncomfortable conversations that most of us spend our lives trying to avoid. And through it all, Nora’s a reliable, trustworthy guide as we journey along our own suffering and grief and loss. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial and get a 4-week trial, plus free postage and a digital scale without a long-term commitment! Go to stamps.com, enter FORTHELOVE. Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join our sisterhood today at jenhatmakerbookclub.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As lawyer and activist Bryan Stevenson puts it, slavery never actually ended—it just evolved, and today it looks like mass incarceration. In the past fifty years, we’ve seen the prison population skyrocket from 200,000 in 1970 to 2.2 million in 2020. In fact, America holds just 5% of the world’s population but more than 25% of the world’s prisoners, where the Black population clock in five times the rate of inmates as the white population. It is imperative that our generation abolish the overcriminalization of Black women, children, and men. And today we’re learning a bit more from CeCe Jones-Davis on how to bring that world to fruition. She’s an activist, a worship leader, and a teacher of social gospel who’s made it her mission to expose the underbelly of the US criminal justice system as she fights for the freedom of a man she believes has been wrongfully convicted: Julius Jones. CeCe also shares the influences who showed her the way toward pursuing justice and life experiences that broke her heart and gave her a passion to advocate for others. CeCe reminds us that realigning the gears of the justice system is too big a task for one person to bear alone—but if we each pick up our small piece, it’s a load we can carry together. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom |Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/fortheloveBetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we open a new chapter of For the Love, where we’ll celebrate the beauty, wholeness, and dignity of Black Lives. At the same time, we’ll also explore the roots of the recent growing advocacy and racial reckoning with experts who will guide us through different facets of what it’s like to be Black in America—in education, health, culture, the church. We’ll unpack how the Black experience differs from the white experience, with true understanding of the gaps in these collective experiences becoming the catalyst for necessary change. Leading off this series is Alencia Johnson, who is the chief impact officer and founder of 1063 West Broad, a company focusing on social impact, brand engagement, and communication strategy (you may remember Alencia from the #sharethemicnow campaign, when she took over Jen’s Instagram to share some deep truths). Alencia helps us examine the intersectionality of racism and gender as she unspools more than 400 years of Black oppression in America, and helps us examine what our country could look like if we invested in the safety and health of ALL communities. Alencia longs to see action behind the words of those who have actual power to create change, and challenges us to implement that change swiftly to systems that uphold racism—and most importantly, sustain the change. Tackling some hard-hitting topics, Alencia touches on white fragility, voter suppression, and what “defunding the police” really means as she helps us imagine how our actions toward these problems might mirror the actions of an aggrieved, change-making, table-flipping Jesus in such a time as this. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! LAUREL SPRINGS | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee. ANCESTRY| Head to ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial. CAMANO ISLAND COFFEE|Sign up for your Coffee Lover’s Membership, and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Since journalist (and now podcaster!) Jeff Chu came on the show in spring of 2019, we haven’t forgotten his poignant storytelling or his answer to the powerful question he’s asked himself since he was a kid: “Does Jesus really love me?” Jeff grew up immersed in a family of theologians, where knowing and sticking to the Bible’s rules were prized currency. As Jeff approached high school, he realized he was gay. Over time, while he prayed for God to change who he was, Jeff threw himself into his work to escape his inner turmoil and realized he was a gifted storyteller who loved talking with people from all walks of life. A few years ago, Jeff found himself on the road, searching for the answer to his long-held question across America as he interviewed everyone from nice church ladies to members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And as he talked to more and more people about their spiritual beliefs, he concluded that, yes—even though Jeff doesn’t feel like it some days—Jesus really does love us all. And if we actually believed He did, we would speak differently, tweet differently, love differently—in a nutshell, believing we’re loved would transform our lives. And don’t forget to check out Jeff’s brand-new podcast called “Evolving Faith,” which he’s co-hosting with FTL fan favorite Sarah Bessey! * * * Thank you to our sponsors! FabFitFun | Use coupon code “FTL” for $10 off your first box at fabfitfun.com #fabfitfunpartner BetterHelp |Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for the Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When lawyer-turned-writer Gretchen Rubin first came on the show in 2019, we were dazzled by the wisdom and tools she shared on how to live with more contentment, right where we are. A decade ago, Gretchen fancied herself a happy person. She had a job she liked, a husband and two daughters she loved, a life she enjoyed. But one day she found herself wondering, “Could I be happier?” So she set out to change her life—not in a blow-it-all-up-and-move-across-the-world kind of way, but with small steps over one year. Gretchen documented her experiment to live happier in the blockbuster New York Times bestseller The Happiness Project, and has inspired millions to improve their lives and find contentment. Jen and Gretchen talk about why it’s okay to pursue happiness in a world filled with hard things, and the little ways we can reach for a richer, more satisfying life. Gretchen shows how easy it is to work “happiness habits” into our lives (Jen adopted one immediately after this interview!) and how these small steps can yield big, long-term results. And don’t forget to check out Gretchen’s latest book Outer Order, Inner Calm. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! ThirdLove | Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/forthelove KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month, plus FREE shipping on any crate line at kiwico.com/forthelove Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial (plus, get free postage and a digital scale) at stamps.com, and enter FORTHELOVE To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When our third Summer Best Of teacher speaks, people listen—and we couldn’t forget the powerful words she shared on For the Love in 2019. Raised a Southern Baptist, as she grew older Kaitlin Curtice began to explore her family’s rich history in the Potawatomi Citizen Band. Kaitlin tells us what life is like as an indigenous woman in the United States today, how she’s teaching her kids about their heritage and how we can rally around teachers of color during their hardest moments. Kaitlin reminds us we have a responsibility to incorporate a wide range of voices into our world and remember the power of empathizing with an experience different from our own. One of the most poignant lessons she gives us: God is is inviting us into the sacred, and it’s not in a far-off sunbeam or reserved for the church pew—the sacred is all around us, from the daffodils on the street corner to the popsicle-stained smile of our kid, even as we are consoled in our pain and grief. God’s glory is in everyone and everything. We only need eyes to see it. Be sure to check out her new book “Native.” * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom |Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove Rothy’s |Check out all the amazing shoes (and bags!) available right now at rothys.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Take charge of your mental health—get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our second Summer Best Of guest is a teacher who taught us how to embrace peace with others, but also within ourselves. Osheta Moore is a writer, speaker, podcaster, and a faith groundbreaker. She’s also a powerful leader on racial reconciliation and equality, and through it all, she teaches that God wants each of us to be whole, vibrant, and flourishing. In her book and podcast called Shalom Sistas, Osheta breaks down 12 ways we can turn “shalom” into an action. She shows us how to become peacemakers in our everyday lives—not just with each other, but with ourselves and with God. Osheta shows us that peace is more than just a feeling. It’s the belief that God created us perfectly, just as we are, and the bodies that we live and practice shalom in, from the color of our skin to the shape of our hips, are wholly good. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Green Chef | Get $80 off your first month plus free shipping on your first box at greenchef.com/forthelove80 Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for the Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ever wish you had a toolkit tailor-made to get you through 2020? Us too. That’s why we pulled together a few of our favorite teachers who have graced the podcast over the years, so we can brush up on the important lessons they taught us and tools they gave us to meet this moment. First up is the matriarch of our favorite “What is saving your life right now?” question—Barbara Brown Taylor! Barbara is a New York Times bestselling author, teacher, and Episcopal priest, and she came on the show during our “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” series in 2018. Her book Learning to Walk in the Dark was featured on the cover of TIME Magazine, and in 2014, TIME also included her on its annual list of Most Influential People (PS she also appeared on Super Soul Sunday with Oprah, so no big deal). Long a favorite author of Jen’s, Barbara has a unique way of sharing essential truths about beauty and about God, and shows us that it cannot be contained inside any walls that people build. Her view is that Jesus “placed higher value on human relationships than on religion. He never told His followers to love their religion—just their neighbors, their enemies, and God." * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for the Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first shipment at camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

To close our spectacular Enneagram series, last but certainly not least (we promise, Nines!), we’re diving into the earnest and endearingly sincere Peacemakers with Jen’s wonderful friend and all-around good human, author Sarah Bessey. Fondly called the crown of the Enneagram, Type Nines have the gift to be fully empathetic, to love and accept without judgement because they can see others as made in God’s image. For a Nine, everyone belongs. This type may seem slow to move sometimes—that’s because they’re content to live in this very moment. Sarah demonstrates the ways that Nines can be mediators, but she also shares how a Nine’s shadow side leans away from conflict and into numbness and routine, pushing them to be a little sloth-like. In their unhealthiest state, a Nine’s identity morphs into whoever’s surrounding them at the moment. But as they grow, Nines realize they don’t have to sacrifice who they are just to keep the peace—their voices are valuable and deserve to be heard. Stay tuned ‘til the end to hear how Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece that was extremely vulnerable and painfully honest, as he had to confront his own weaknesses as a type Nine in order to grow into his full potential. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove ThirdLove | Get 15% off your first order at thirdlove.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make way for the Enneagram Eights! On this week’s episode, we get to chat with not one, but two experts about the steely armor and tender insides that make up The Challengers, as they’re sometimes called. Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee helps us unpack the hallmark characteristic of an Eight—their strength—and reveals that an Eight’s strength typically stems from childhood happenings that trigger the notion that they have to take care of themselves, which they can also wrap around their loved ones and those in need. This protective instinct means that Eights aren’t intimidated by opposition, but they do fear being betrayed or controlled—and when that happens, it can appear that Eights don’t need a shoulder to lean on. But, as Sarajane shows us, in order to love an Eight well, they need to see strength in us so that they can release the heavy responsibility they feel to carry the world’s weight on their shoulders. Abi Robins of Conscious Enneagram shares their expertise as not only an Eight themselves, but also as a teacher of The Narrative Enneagram. Abi also breaks down a new-to-us Enneagram term called “subtypes,” of which there are three—self-preservation, one-to-one, and social—and shows how these subtypes affect the way our Enneagram numbers play out in the world. Abi opens up about the incredible resilience that Eights possess and vulnerably shares what type Eight growth looks like to someone with a marginalized identity. Abi explains that a heated exchange that may look like an argument to some types is just a problem-solving, connective conversation to an Eight, and how that willingness to engage with an Eight, even when it’s messy, is the key to unlocks an Eight’s trust. Make sure you listen all the way through the hear how composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece as strong as the Eights are, with a little touch of vulnerability that those who are close to Eights are lucky enough to glimpse. * * * Rothy's | Check out all the stylish and sustainable shoes (and amazing bags!) at rothys.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Stamps.com | Start your 4-week trial (plus, get free postage and a digital scale) at stamps.com, and enter FORTHELOVE To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Enneagram Sevens! You can’t say it without an exclamation point, right? This week we look at what many consider to be the most “fun” number on the Enneagram—known as The Enthusiasts for good reason! To guide us is a true Seven among Sevens and friend of the podcast, Bob Goff. Bob is a man of many hats—attorney, honorary consul, author, and humanitarian, to name a few. He’s here to share about the power of a Seven’s joy, their ability to have big dreams and ideas, and that a Seven’s enthusiasm isn’t as spontaneous as you would think—there’s planning and thought behind it. As part of the thinking triad, these joyful strategists are full of situational awareness. They’re in tune with examining why they do the things they do, but they also carry a deep fear of rejection. Sevens possess a beautiful, natural curiosity about possibilities. They’re excellent at saying, “Let’s just see what will happen . . .” and they’re brave enough to take those chances. Sevens strive for meaning, not just surface-level joy. As Jen puts it, “These are people that really come alongside the rest of us and go, ‘What's your dream? You can do this.’” Also, if you stick around to the end of the episode, you’ll be delighted to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a piece for Sevens inspired by Disney classics like Peter Pan and Inside Out—and you’ll hear Bob Goff himself, who contributed his own ukulele stylings to the piece (such a Seven thing to do!). * * * Thank you to our sponsors! FabFitFun | Get $10 off your first box when you go to https://fabfitfun.com and use the code FTL at checkout Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join today at https://jenhatmakerbookclub.com Jo Saxton Leadership Coaching | Sign up for a 30-day trial (and access the workshop led by Be the Bridge’s LaTasha Morrison) at http://josaxtonleadershipcoaching.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this incredibly meaningful, special bonus episode of For the Love, in honor of Pride Month, a mother and daughter come together to have a frank and beautiful conversation about what it’s like to grow up as the daughter of a popular Christian author and speaker and in a household steeped in the church . . . and realize you’re gay. This is Jen and Sydney Hatmaker’s experience—and in this episode, Sydney and her mom tell their story so that parents, family, and friends of LGBTQ+ kids who need trustworthy voices to lead them into love and affirmation will find hope here. Sydney bravely and tenderly shares how she grappled with reconciling her sexuality and her spirituality, all the while wondering if God would still love her if she decided to build a life where she could be who she was meant to be. The pair candidly discuss Sydney’s initial silent journey and Jen’s deep regret at not being more aware of what her daughter needed during these early days as Sydney wrestled alone with who she was. Jen and Sydney make a call to Christians to look at what it means to really love our LGBTQ+ family: recognizing them wholly as God’s children, who are wholly loved by God. Sydney also gives us insight into how we can come alongside our LGBTQ+ family by showing us what meaningful allyship looks like: supporting and protecting those who are subject to marginalization with tangible actions filled with love. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! Ancestry | Get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial at ancestry.com/forthelove Queer RelationTips Podcast | Listen and subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today’s peek behind the Enneagram curtain, we get to learn all about Type Sixes—the Loyalists—and what makes them tick. Graphic designer, Enneagram artist, and Disney cast member Ashton Brye shares how she discovered the Enneagram, applied her own artistic and pop culture spin on it, and voila! Her Instagram following @ashton.creates skyrocketed, all born out of her desire to learn more about all the Enneagram types. As a Six herself, Ashton breaks down for us how Sixes have a deep longing for safety and security, which they find through preparedness. Unfortunately, that need to be on top of things can often be mistakenly labeled for anxiety and fear. Sixes are crazy loyal and responsible, and they value structure. As Ashton shares, when a Six goes in on something, they go all in--which is why they make excellent friends. Ashton talks a little bit about how it’s hard for Sixes to turn their minds off and relax without thinking about what needs to get done in the future, that for Sixes, it’s a balance of learning what can wait. In conflict, like in everything else they do, Sixes are all in, and they crave reassurance from others that you aren’t going to leave them. And PS: don’t forget to stick around until the end of the episode to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a soothing, safe, and whimsical musical piece inspired by type Sixes. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/fortheloveBetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/fortheloveLaurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we begin a deep dive into the head triad, starting with Type Fives—the Investigators. And because there’s so much to learn about the complex Fives, we have not one but two guests to share their input: Enneagram expert Dr. Avon Manney, and podcaster/author/Enneagram Five Knox McCoy. Dr. Avon (a Nine married to a Five!) shares how she started applying the Enneagram to her osteopathy practice so she could help patients heal emotional issues that were manifesting in her patients’ bodies. She talks about how Fives are explorers who want to know how and why things work the way they do. Taking Dr. Avon’s insights a step further and giving us a peek under the hood, Knox explains how that exploration shows up in his own life—as a Five, he’s motivated to make sure he shows up as competent and prepared in every situation. Knox also breaks down something Fives suffer from called “catastrophic depletion,” which basically means Fives have a limited energy reservoir, and once it’s gone for the day, it is gone. As profoundly efficient fixers, Fives possess a beautiful clarity of thought, a thirst for knowledge, and an unparalleled loyalty for those they love. And just wait until you make it to the end, when we hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), about how he completed a music piece inspired by Fives—his longest piece in the whole series! * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Ancestry | Head to ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial. KiwiCo | Get 30% off your first month on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove. Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove today and receive a waived registration fee. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In light of the uprisings of the past weeks, it is not enough to perform wokeness. We need true solidarity. True solidarity requires an understanding of the historical and cultural roots and current-day patterns of white women’s betrayals of people of color. It will also require repair. This is a raw, honest, informative, solidarity-building conversation with author and Freedom Road founder and president Lisa Sharon Harper. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our Enneagram series continues with another type who rounds out the heart triad: the beautifully complex Type Fours (also known as The Romantics). To lead us on all things Type Four, we have an incredible returning guest: a Four himself, Ian Morgan Cron. Ian wears many hats—Enneagram expert, author of The Road Back to You, host of Typology Podcast, priest and psychotherapist, to name a few—and his Fourness is revealed in his beautiful, open posture toward humanity. He walks us through how Fours believe that they have an “unredeemable deficiency,” how they feel a little different and off-center, and have a vague dissatisfaction with themselves. Typically seen as the most complex of all the Enneagram numbers, Fours seek to be special in some way to fill this inner void, and the road to being a healthy Four is when they realize that “specialness” isn’t their sole path to being loved. Ian shares personally his experience that the superpower of a Four is emotional intuitiveness and empathy; Fours are equipped to come alongside people in their dark moments and walk through the suffering with them, and they tend to gravitate towards spaces in which they can uniquely contribute to conversation. Conversely, Fours in conflict tend to withdraw, and Ian shares how they can be lovingly drawn out. And don’t forget to stick around until the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his process for crafting a music piece as uniquely complex as Type Fours. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The next stop on the For the Love of The Enneagram train takes us to the land of the Enneagram Threes (also known as The Achievers). Leading us today are two Threes—someone you may know named Jen Hatmaker who’s a Three, and Lisa Whelchel. Lisa’s an actor (you may know her best as Blair from the ‘80s sitcom “The Facts of Life”), author, speaker, and life coach who is not only a Three herself, but who also raised a Three, and she’s just walked through a twelve-year journey of deconstructing and reconstructing everything about her life: everything she knows and everything she believed about herself and her faith. She’s dismantled so many internal walls that now, in her words, the love can flow without blocks. Lisa has bravely stepped out of safety and security in the pursuit of being whole, though her natural instincts told her to hide from the shame and fear she felt. She’s learned to overcome crowd-pleasing in order to live her own truth and be her most authentic self, and she shares what it looks like to be in a marriage and in conflict with someone of this type. And stay tuned at the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the incredibly special Enneagram Three in his life. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! FabFitFun | Go to fabfitfun.com and use the code HATMAKER at checkout to get $10 off your first box. #fabfitfunpartner BestFiends | Download for FREE at the Apple App Store or Google Play. Ancestry | Head to Ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA kit and start your free trial. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our next installment of For the Love of The Enneagram brings us to wonderful Enneagram Twos (aka The Helpers!). And leading our discussion is Phileena Heuertz, a spiritual director and Enneagram expert who, as a Two herself, knows how it feels to love others and want to help them as much as she can, while at the same time longing to feel accepted for who she is, not necessarily what she does for others. Years ago, after Phileena began to study the Enneagram a bit more and felt deeply seen by it, she began to ask herself some deep, probing questions about her Twoness: What is my motivation for serving others? Am I doing it to fulfill my need to be loved? If I stop serving you, will you still love me? And finally, Phileena realized she could find true freedom once she gave herself permission to take care of her own needs so that she could be her happiest, healthiest, and most authentic self—which would help her care for others even more deeply. Also featured in this episode is composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the special Enneagram Twos in his life. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Laurel Springs | Register your child at laurelsprings.com/forthelove and receive a waived registration fee To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Last week, we launched our brand-new Enneagram series, and today we begin our deep-dive into each of the nine numbers. We’re starting right at the top with Enneagram Ones—and who’s better to talk about Ones than with For the Love favorite, Fr. Richard Rohr? While we’ve been obsessed with the Enneagram for only a few years, Fr. Richard has been studying it for decades, and he has keen insight into the personality assessment. As a One himself, Fr. Richard opens the door into what it’s like to live inside the head of a One, and how even from an early age, Ones work so hard to be dependable, solutions-driven people. After years of trying to solve the world’s problems, Fr. Richard found freedom when he realized he couldn’t—and that was okay (plus, he found his relationships could be richer when he learned to enjoy being right without proclaiming to be right). Whether you’re a One, you love a One, or you’re raising a One, Fr. Richard’s insights are revelatory as he speaks about the motivations behind the type, how to approach conflict with Ones, and what it feels like to constantly have a critic inside your own head. And be sure to stick around to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last) and listen to his thoughts behind the music he crafted specifically for Ones, which appears all throughout this episode. * * * Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now! http://fierceandfreebook.com * * * Thanks to our episode sponsors! - KiwiCo | Get your first month free on select crates at kiwico.com/forthelove - Aspen Lane |Get 10% off your order with discount code FORTHELOVE at shopaspenlane.com - Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join the best book club community on the internet! jenhatmakerbookclub.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Good people of the internet and faithful For the Love listeners—you’ve asked, we’ve listened, and we are *thrilled* to invite you to our brand-new series on one of our favorite topics: The Enneagram personality assessment! Whether you’re a seasoned Ennea-thusiast or a complete newbie, you’re going to want to plug into this deep dive with Enneagram expert (and a Type 2 herself), Suzanne Stabile! Suzanne and Jen walk through the ins and outs of each of the nine Enneagram numbers, while Suzanne gives piercingly accurate insight on the motivations behind each personality type. Plus, Suzanne shares how we can learn to use the Enneagram as the ultimate empathy tool, as it helps us listen to and treat others in the way that they need, not in the way that we need. Suzanne and Jen agree that knowing yourself and others through identifying your type can revolutionize our relationships with our spouses, parents, kids, friends, coworkers—everyone. And be sure to check out the whole series featuring a deep dive into every number type over 9 episodes! * * * Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now! http://fierceandfreebook.com * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! BetterHelp Counseling | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove Laurel Springs School | Register your child today at laurelsprings.com/forthelove and receive a waived registration fee Ancestry | Start exploring your family story today at ancestry.com/forthelove to get your AncestryDNA Kit and start your free trial To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who would we be if we weren’t afraid? What would our lives look like if we pushed aside our greatest fears and let curiosity lead the way? Today we’re wrapping the Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire series with one of the world’s greatest teachers on how to live in the beauty of freedom: award-winning writer and all-around good human, Elizabeth Gilbert. Liz has opened her life and poured her lessons generously into masterpieces on creative living like Eat, Pray, Love and Big Magic, plus her latest work, the gorgeous novel City of Girls. Today Liz feeds our souls by giving us permission to throw away words like “passion” and “purpose” and “balance” (which, let’s be honest, are stifling) so that, instead, we can lower the stakes and allow ourselves the delight of discovery. * * * Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now! http://fierceandfreebook.com * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! - Best Fiends | Download Best Fiends FREE on the Apple App Store or Google Play. https://bestfiends.com - BeachBody on Demand | Text FORTHELOVE to 303030 and get a special free trial membership. - Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for a Coffee Lovers Membership and receive $20 off your first shipment. http://camanoislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Have you ever wanted to be part of an actual book club? One that actually reads the book instead of just providing classy cover for wine drinking? (well, okay, there’s still a *little* wine drinking) Then seriously, you need to join the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! Every month, Jen sends you one of her favorite books (along with a box of goodies!), and sits down with the book’s author for a podcast that’s exclusive for members . . . until TODAY! Because the April author of the month is none other than one Ms. Jennifer Hatmaker, who wrote a brand-new book you may have heard a little something about called Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire. So to celebrate, Jen and her ride-or-die girlfriends Trina, Shonna, and Jenny hopped on Skype to talk about all the hard lessons and laughs they’ve had as they’ve lived out the pages of Fierce together. Jen and the gang talk about how they met, which friend can claim eternal credit for pushing Jen into creating a sphere of influence, how they’ve learned to love their bodies and make friendships last and trust themselves to create a life that’s worthy of the women full of fire they’ve been called to be. ***SIGN UP for the Jen Hatmaker Book Club today!jenhatmakerbookclub.com ***THANK YOU to our episode sponsors!- Aspen Lane | Get 10% off your order with discount code FORTHELOVE at shopaspenlane.com- Camano Island Coffee | Sign up for a Coffee Lovers Membership and get $20 off your first order at camanolislandcoffee.com/forthelove To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fierce women are all around us—we are them, we raise them, we’ve been mentored by them. But lifestyle expert and entrepreneur Camila McConaughey takes that to a new level by cultivating a loving, open, supportive community called Women of Today. The ultimate example of a fierce woman, Camila moved independently from Brazil to the U.S. at only fifteen, determined to take the world by storm. After stumbling into modeling, Camila hustled, and she hustled hard. She lived her life to the very fullest, experiencing all she could, because those life moments are things that can never be taken away. She clung to faith to keep the discouragement at bay when things got hard, and she prayed diligently for God to reveal her bigger mission: “You take me where I’m supposed to go.” She’s a proponent of the spirit of trying, the experience of living, and innovating in every way possible, and she’s on the show to share what magic can happen when we’re comfortable and confident enough in our own skin that we can turn our efforts to the other women around us who need to be lifted. * * * Thank you to our episode sponsors! - Noom | Start your trial today at noom.com/forthelove - I Still Believe | watch the trailer | available on Blu-Ray/DVD on May 5 - International Justice Mission | watch stories of hope at ijm.org/sharehopenow To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Right now, we’re capable of so much more than surviving. We can thrive right now if we dig deep and we put our hand to this work. Award-winning ABC News correspondent Paula Faris, who also hosts the Journeys of Faith podcast, has just undergone an enormous self-transformation, right before all this COVID-19 craziness started happening, so she guides us through the waters here. She tells us how she’s leaning into her true purpose and how we use this season to discover ours. As co-anchor of Good Morning America Weekend and the co-host of The View, Paula was living her best life--or so she thought--because even though she had her dream job, she didn’t have her dream life. Fear haunted her when she first stepped into her career, and then again when stepping out of it, and she shares how facing that fear helped her realign her priorities and led to inner peace. In this season, it helps to be realistic with our expectations and our workload; focusing on practicality and giving ourselves (and our loved ones) grace. Like Paula, we can hit the reset button and consider where we are, what’s next, and where we want to go from here. * * * Thanks to our episode sponsor, International Justice Mission! ijm.org/sharehopenow To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Think about the day quarantine is over (dare we dream?). What will our lives look like? Who will we be? Is it possible that maybe, ever so gently, we can start taking a small inventory of what’s been serving us, and what we want to let go of? Leading us through these questions is the wise and witty Sheri Salata, former executive producer of The Oprah Winfrey Show, former co-president of Harpo Network and OWN. One day, Sheri woke up at age 57 and discovered that while she had the career of her dreams, she didn’t have the life of her dreams—and she embarked on a journey to reverse those roles, which she talks about in her most excellent book, The Beautiful No. Sheri walks us through how to recognize when you’re living in deliberate unconsciousness, why it’s never too late to dream a new dream, and how committing to radical self-care is a surefire way to change your life for the better. Sheri reminds us that we’re not worthy because of what we achieve—we are worthy simply because of who we are. * * * Thanks to our episode sponsor, International Justice Mission! ijm.org/sharehopenow To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our next “Fierce” guest is coming in hot! The dynamite leader of the Own It Academy, Jordan Lee Dooley, takes the mic to push us to ponder what our true dreams really are and how we can start to own them—even if we have to take steps outside of our comfort zone box (or the box that others have put us in!). And Jordan doesn’t just talk about chasing dreams—she’s a woman who walks behind her words. Jordan reveals how she forged her own path from Etsy shop owner to business educator, author, and podcaster by daring to take chances and try different career paths as she honed her gift for communication. And Jordan realized as she gave herself permission to try new things, she kept herself open to discover all the seemingly random skills weren’t meaningless—they could be woven together to create a phenomenal career to help women all over the globe. Jordan and Jen talk through what it means to pivot well and why finding our passion actually isn’t the biggest task of our lives—it’s recognizing what our skills are, and using them to contribute help humankind flourish. Jordan reminds us that our job is not to accomplish things—it’s to leave behind a legacy of relationships and love as integrated women who know themselves and help others know themselves, too. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re all struggling with resentment right now—separation from family and friends, lost jobs and furloughs, cancelled graduations and vacations, and even struggling to come up with grace for the people living right inside our very houses. But our guest today, New York Times bestselling author Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, reminds us how healing and freeing it can be to wrap this season—and the rest of our lives—in forgiveness, even when it’s incredibly hard to encounter our pain and try to let it all go. Katherine’s spent the last few years in the quest to understand forgiveness after a terrible rift with a close friend. And in her journey, she talked to more than 20 people from all walks of life who have encountered tragedy and personal demons—everyone from headline-making names like Elizabeth Smart to friend-of-the-podcast Nadia Bolz-Weber. Katherine recorded her conversations and insights in her brand-new book The Gift of Forgiveness. Katherine’s words will fill you with hope because, as she says, “When we learn to embrace forgiveness, it opens us up to healing, hope, and a new world of possibility.” To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Quarantine Queens is back with another episode as we continue to muddle through this weird time of isolation and the ongoing search for the elusive “new normal,” including; when is it okay to take a break from the seriousness of it all to have fun and laugh? Enter this week’s guest, best-selling author and award winning comedian Jim Gaffigan. Like Jen, Jim is quarantining with his spouse and 5 kids, but unlike Jen, they literally can’t go one step out the door—as Jim describes it—“taking out the trash is my ‘me’ time.” Like so many of us, Jim and his family are navigating completely unknown territory where questions of “what’s next” with jobs, school, trips and obligations remain vague at best—and he’s graciously invited us to take a peek at how his family is handling it all with his hilarious online series “Dinner with The Gaffigans.” If you think you deserve a parade because you cooked 3 meals for your family in a day while in quarantine, or because you changed a water filter without calling anyone, Jim and Jen are your staunch advocates. Ultimately, they discuss what they hope we’ll walk away with from this unsettling season, and Jim even gives Jen a pep talk about the pros and cons of launching a new book during a pandemic. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The For the Love world is totally upside-down today, y’all. Jen is a guest on her own podcast, and gets interviewed about her new book, Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire, by the ever-so-magical Melissa Radke! Jen reveals the first outlier women who made lasting impressions on her: watching how they lived in her own skins in a way that didn't fit the template Jen had been prescribed from her conservative upbringing. The two talk about growing up in the church and the messaging they received about who they should be as women, and the hard work of pushing past those boundaries to become the women they were designed to be. Listen as Melissa pulls an “Oprah” on Jen, how some of Jen’s words made Melissa “mad,” and how they both are learning to discover who they are and how to love every part of themselves (and we can too). Finding a sense of belonging to ourselves, uncovering who we are and what we want, is the start of the journey to becoming Fierce, Free and Full of Fire. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you do when you believe God is good, that He has a plans to give us hope and a future, and yet the reality of what we’re living is . . . well, it’s hard. And sad. So how do we reconcile having hard feelings and holding onto faith? Times like these call for experts who’ve walked hard paths before, and we have that leader in the incredible Kate Bowler, an associate professor at Duke Divinity School and NYT bestselling author of Everything Happens for a Reason: And Other Lies I’ve Loved. After Kate walked through a Stage IV cancer diagnosis at 35 years old, she’s gained some hard-earned wisdom that she she shares abundantly, like how to manage our moments when we can’t plan for the future (spoiler alert: look for signs of hope in the in-between space). Plus, Kate reminds us that the language of the Christian faith isn’t always self-improvement—there’s a purpose to our pain, and it’s something we need to talk about, because we can be scared and still be faithful. Let’s be honest: we’re living through a really hard season. But even right now, God is still here with us. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Parents, we’re trying our best here. Who’d have ever thought we’d find ourselves in the middle of a pandemic, trying to help our offspring navigate a world we don’t really know how to wade through ourselves? Two of our fellow parents, blogger Jessica Turner and children’s book author Matthew Paul Turner, share how they’re managing all the moving pieces, and how they’re trying to balance structure with whimsy to keep kids on track. The Turners also give us the scoop on which tools and resources that are helping them navigate life with their three kids from pre-K to 5th grade (spoiler alert: subscription boxes are worth their weight in gold). As busy working parents, Jessica and Matthew remind us that we can put away the expectations for perfect homeschooling (scratch that, crisis schooling) or perfect anything, really, and trust that being present and hopeful in this new season will carry us through. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our next guest in our Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire series is—get ready—Queer Eye’s delightful design guru Bobby Berk. Bobby walks us through the backstory we’ve all gotten glimpses of on TV: how he left home at 15, after realizing he was gay and knowing he would struggle against rejection and hatred in his small hometown. This began a tough journey where he worked multiple jobs, slept in his car, moving to Denver then eventually NYC, where he worked his way up at various design retailers before opening his own acclaimed design business. Bobby gives us the inside scoop on the nail-biting process of becoming part of the Fab 5 (and why Jonathan thinks Bobby would be the first to go in a zombie apocalypse!), and what gives him joy and fire being part of that crew and changing lives around the globe. Bobby tells us there’s enough love and success to go around, and in the spirit of reversing lies we’ve been told about ourselves, Bobby refuses to accept that we all aren’t capable of success. As Bobby’s story illustrates, we can make our dreams happen if we freely and fiercely go after them. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

More than ever, now’s the time we can dust off the books we’ve been meaning to read for forever and conquer our literary dreams. But what if your dreams of tackling War & Peace are too much right now and you just need a quick escape? What about books that pre-teens and teens stuck at home can pour themselves into—even for the kids who don’t find their noses in a book too often? The Queen of Books, aka Anne Bogel of Modern Mrs. Darcy, graces the podcast once again with some cozy book suggestions that’ll help you take your mind off things (or the other people living in your house). And Anne’s just released a book of her own that’s super timely for the world we’re living in right now called Don’t Overthink It: Make Easier Decisions, Stop Second-Guessing, and Bring More Joy. She walks us through how to “change the channel” in our brains and gives us a few tips on how to spread joy and hope while we’re confined, like helping small local businesses right from your couch. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Now that so many of us are figuring out what it looks like to be home all the time, we also find ourselves cooking, cooking, cooking. Whether you’ve got a family of seven like Jen, or are cooking for one, the temptation to stress eat (Doritos anyone? chased by some Haagen Dazs?) is strong. And conversely, so is the pressure to feed yourself and family well during a time of crisis when budgets may be under assault and grocery store trips aren’t as fruitful as they used to be. We have just the person to guide us through what to stock in our pantries during such a time as this--Nom Nom Paleo’s Michelle Tam. Michelle, along with her lawyer husband Henry, have created a delicious and whimsical food brand that includes an award winning blog, app and best selling cookbooks. And lest you think that Michelle’s pantry is filled with almond flour, ghee, and kale chips, she admits to us that there might be a can of Spam or two in the mix. With grace and humor, she gives tips on what we can easily procure for our pantries to create delicious, filling and affordable meals, but assures us that you’re not a food failure if your kids get hot dogs every once in a while. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re THRILLED to launch our new “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” series, and our first guest lives all three of those traits in such an inspiring way. Glennon Doyle is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Love Warrior and Carry On, Warrior and she’s back with her rawest book yet: Untamed, which explores how women untangle themselves from the lies they’ve been told about their bodies, their voices, their minds and their places in the world. Glennon’s also an activist, and she’s the founder and president of Together Rising, an all-woman-led nonprofit that has raised over $22 million for women and children in crisis. Glennon recounts her own “untaming” through an unblinking examination of her upbringing, her first marriage, and her struggles with an eating disorder and alcoholism. She encourages all of us to examine what we want and implores us to lean into those things—not letting anyone tell us that what we want isn’t achievable. Glennon believes that because what most women want is true and beautiful, if we chased all we wanted, “dreams would be realized. Corrupt governments would topple. Institutions would fall so that we could rebuild lives and relationships and nations that are built on justice.” To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On the best days, people are, well, a lot. They have feelings, they have opinions, they have needs—and as “responsible adults,” we have so many people relying on us at one time that sometimes it can feel like we cannot crumble, because who on earth knows what would happen if we did? Add in a virus, some upended lifestyles, extroverts and introverts forced indoors together, and well . . . let’s just say we need some guidance on how to get through this pandemic with our sanity intact. Thankfully, one of Jen’s favorite experts is here to lend a hand (and when we say favorite, we mean she’s quoted the book he co-authored, Boundaries, in *at least* six of her books): psychologist and NYT bestselling author Dr. John Townsend! Jen and Dr. Townsend go deep into all the pressure points we’re seeing in our relationships right now: how parents can walk teens through their hard feelings, how to spouses can learn to talk through their frustrations (especially since introverts and extroverts are responding so differently right now), even how to draw boundaries in a house where you’re stuck with a bunch of other people. Dr. Townsend’s chockfull of practical tips on how to emotionally care for ourselves and our loved ones well, even during a crisis. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You’re stuck at home with nowhere to go, with people you loved before you learned you were married to the guy who says, “Let’s take this convo offline,” or discovered your human limit for watching Frozen 2 on repeat is approximately 72 hours. When our normal routines get out of whack, so do our bodies—and our minds are soon to follow. Therapist, researcher, and podcaster Dr. Hillary McBride—guest of our most-listened-to episode of 2019—is back to walk us through the stress we’re feeling and how to move our bodies through Big Feelings. With her soothing voice and warm personality, Hillary guides us through why this particular season of newness is so hard for us (news flash: new things take a lot of energy). Plus Hillary gives us practical tips on how to stay mentally healthy during this hard time, like how to understand what we’re actually feeling in this moment, how to heal our anxious feelings, and why setting boundaries is one of the most caring things you can do for yourself and others. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re wrapping our Live Podcast series on a high note with leadership trainer, international speaker, and author Jo Saxton. Jo graced us with her guidance in an early podcast series (one of our favorites) called “ For the Love of Women Who Built It.” And now she’s back to share her invaluable work to help women learn to become better leaders in every facet of of their lives. Jo talks about “the hunger of the how” when we are trying to figure out how to be “unstuck” and encourages us to evaluate why we feel stuck (could it be that we’re afraid to move?). And to get unstuck, Jo encourages us to tell our stories. In fact, as Jo notes, throughout history women weren’t able to tell their stories to inspire us—and she wants to make up for lost time by helping us unpack our own. Jo reiterates that there’s room for us all and that women should advocate, recommend, and introduce the women they admire to each other—because individually and collectively, we can each go after our dreams with no apologies. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The For the Love Podcast is bringing you a series of special episodes as we all face the Coronavirus Pandemic and all the ways it’s impacting our lives. We’ll bring you inspiration, education, practical tips, humor & hope as we all face potential weeks of isolating due to the pandemic. Look for these episodes on Mondays and Fridays while we’re all hunkered down together. Many of us are worried about the toll to the economy and to our own personal finances as we face reduced hours, changing work environments or elimination of our jobs altogether--plus added concerns that our investments and savings are at risk. Our guest for this episode is here to help us manage those fears and give us some practical ways to prepare our hearts and minds for managing finances in a crisis. Pete the Planner is a USA Today columnist and the CEO of Your Money Line and Hey Money. In his previous life, he was also an award winning comedian, so while we may feel like crying over potential money woes, Pete will give us hope and help us find something to laugh about too. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re on the road again with the For the Love Live Podcast Tour! And this stop reunites us with old friend and New York Times bestselling author Shauna Niequist. Shauna fills us in on her family’s big move from the Midwest to New York, and all the rewards and challenges of creating a life in the Big Apple. Shauna also confesses what it’s like to sit across from Queen Oprah while she asks you questions about words that you wrote in your very own book that Oprah herself has read cover to cover (!). Shauna closes the loop from the last time she visited For the Love and gives us the real skinny on the “alternative bra situation” story—apparently she wasn’t totally forthcoming last time (one word: “stickers.”) Shauna and Jen also take questions from the audience and offer poignant and sometimes hilarious advice, including Shauna’s words to anyone trying something new: “We’re not dumb, we’re just new. We’re not failing, we’re learning. We’re not falling behind, we’re beginning again.” To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the next stop of the For the Love Live Tour, our TV soulmates return! Knox McCoy and Jamie Golden of the ever delightful show, The Popcast, come back to tell us about more things that entertain but do not matter (and a few things that actually do!). Jen dives into Knox and Jamie’s back story and how they met on the internet back before our parents were on Facebook and people still asked Jeeves a question from time to time—plus they dish on their best business advice for people who want to start their own podcast. The trio talks about all things under the pop culture sun, like how to create a dream Hallmark movie, why Ariel is a garbage princess and why Ursula the Evil Sea Witch is Jamie’s personal hero. Plus, of course, the best TV you need to be bingeing right now! They also fill us in about their other podcast, The Bible Binge (it’s like if People Magazine told Bible stories) and how God can be found in pop culture —and how humor can be healing because, as Jamie says, “Sometimes you just need an hour to escape the dumpster fire.” To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join us on a virtual road trip for our very first For the Love Live Podcast Tour as Jen criss-crosses the country to talk to some of our very best leaders, teachers, and entertainers about literally everything under the sun. We couldn’t think of anyone we’d want to kick off this series more than friend of the show, Austin Channing Brown. Austin is a writer, a speaker, and an advocate for racial justice. She helps schools, nonprofits, and religious organizations learn to practice genuine inclusion and equality. You’ll remember Austin from our For the Love of Exploring Our Faith series where she shared her beautiful and haunting book I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness. During this live conversation in Portland, Jen and Austin wrestle with some huge questions: What’s the best way to support people who have been systemically marginalized? How do we move voices and experiences of people of color at the center? And as we look at the vast landscape of social justice work, where do we even begin? Time and again, Austin forces us to ask ourselves, “What does loving our neighbor really mean?” and reminds us that justice work is hard—we’ll get doors slammed in our face. We’ll get our feelings hurt. But we’ll dust our shoulders off and keep on doing the work—because doing nothing is no longer an option, and peace and reconciliation is the end goal. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices