For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

We’re bringing back one of our most popular episodes ever on the pod - featuring “The Body Keeps the Score” author Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. And for a fun NEW take on the episode, Jen Hatmaker has asked one of her best friends, Amy Hardin, to join her to discuss their thoughts on this episode! Listen as Jen and Amy discuss their meet cute and then wade into the episode which delves into the relationship between trauma and the body, relating their personal experiences around this. Dr. Van Der Kolk is a psychiatrist, author, researcher and author of the book The Body Keeps The Score. He has spent most of his career researching the causes of post traumatic stress, and is continuing to come away with groundbreaking discoveries about the power of our bodies to protect and shield us. Dr. Van Der Kolk brings us to the intersection of embodiment, mental well-being, and neuroscience and examines how we can understand our bodies’ response to trauma so we can embrace our healing. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “People think about trauma as that thing that happened a long time ago. But that's not the issue, because that thing is over. It happened last year or 10 years ago, it's not happening today. But the traces that it leaves inside of you, are happening now.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk “When you're traumatized, you try to not have all the sensations and feelings, and you turn on music loudly, or you drink or you take drugs, to make those feelings go away. And then to experience your feelings becomes very difficult.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk “The most elementary thing is breathing. Our breath is the one thing in our body that happens whether we want it or not. And we can learn to breathe differently. So there's a physiological function that gives us access to some core pieces of ourselves, where you slow down your breath, you focus on breath, you activate your parasympathetic nervous system, and you do become calmer. That's where you start.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk “You cannot take care of yourself unless you accept yourself for who you are.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk “When you're traumatized, one thing becomes another thing. So to open that up, and open up the mind to new possibilities is incredibly important.” - Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Body Keeps The Score by Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk - https://bit.ly/3zyCVPk Guest’s Links: Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Website - https://www.besselvanderkolk.com Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thebodykeepsthescore Dr. Van Der Kolk’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thebodykeepsthescore/ Dr. Van Der Kolk’s YouTube - https://bit.ly/3RZpoa8 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kirsten Powers is a tenured news analyst who lived inside our modern age’s belly of the beast — 24-Hour Network News. Kirsten Powers lived and breathed as a senior news analyst at Fox News and then CNN for years. Eventually, she hit a breaking point and realized living full throttle, enraged about the state of the world, wasn't doing her or anyone she loved any favors. She pulled back and began examining what it would be like if she stayed engaged in political news but also still centered and compassionate. Through her examination, she wrote an entire book about how to embrace grace and disengage from inflammatory discourse called “Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts.” If you need some advice on how to balance that tightrope walk of being informed and actionable but not totally defeated by the litany of bad news, please join Jen and Kirsten as they determine what grace looks like when the world feels culturally and politically on fire. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I feel like what our culture is missing is grace. We don't have grace for each other, and I don't have grace for people, and I don't think other people have grace for people, for the most part. And I think it's because we don't really understand grace.” - Kirsten Powers “When you call things out, you need to call it behavior. You need to say, "You're doing X, Y, and Z, and this is a problem," versus, "You are X, Y, and Z, and you are a problem.” - Kirsten Powers “Boundaries were really hard for me. And one of the things that I discovered was, I think I thought of boundaries as almost aggressive. You're keeping people out, and that's not actually what they are. You're actually letting people know how to be in a relationship with you. So it's actually an act of grace, right?” - Kirsten Powers Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Richard Rohr on FTL Podcast: https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-16/live-yourself-into-a-new-way-of-thinking-richard-rohr/ Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/saving-grace-kirsten-powers/1138990768?ean=9780593238233 Fierce, Free and Full of Fire: The Guide to Being Glorious You https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fierce-free-and-full-of-fire-jen-hatmaker/1132184307?ean=9780718088163&aug=1 Kirsten’s Substack Newsletter: https://kirstenpowers.substack.com/ For the Love of the Enneagram (Jen’s podcast series on the Enneagram): https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series/series-27/ Guest’s Links: Kirsten’s Website: https://kirstenpowers.com/ Kirsten’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenpowers10/ Kirsten’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/KirstenPowers/ Kirsten’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/KirstenPowers Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bestselling author, R. Eric Thomas, wrote “Here for It” in 2020 and it continues to reverberate in the hearts and minds of readers because of its timely topics and riveting personal story—making it a perfect “revisit” for our book club community! With humor and vulnerability, Eric shares about his memoir which is equal parts hilarity and heart–and what it took to write about his intersecting identities as a Black, queer, Christian man. Join Jen and Eric as they traverse transforming the ordinary into the profoundly funny and insightful. Book Summary: In his memoir of essays “Here for It,” Eric attempts to define what it means to be an “other” through his experience growing up in two very different worlds — the urban landscape of his parents home in Baltimore and then the wealthy, white suburb where he went to private school. He tries to figure out how to reconcile all of this, not just these two wildly different racial and class spaces, but also his Christian upbringing with his sexuality as a gay man; the exhaustion of code switching; accidentally finding internet fame; covering the 2016 election and all of that aftermath. Ultimately, he is seeking to answer whether the future is worth it when everything seems to be getting worse. He re-envisions what could be by placing himself at the center of his own story and sharing his experiences with us. * * * Guest’s Links: R. Eric Thomas’s Website - https://rericthomas.com/ R. Eric Thomas’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/oureric/ R. Eric Thomas’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/oureric R. Eric Thomas’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/R.Eric.T/ Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Here for It or How to Save Your Soul in America by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3KFKdTV The Preacher’s Wife - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Preacher%27s_Wife Congratulations, The Best Is Over by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3RdAY1E Kings of Baltimore by R. Eric Thomas - https://bit.ly/3PxKvQ4 Dickinson (TV Series) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8518136/ Better Things (TV Series) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4370596/ The Moth - https://bit.ly/3Vl3YFb Andre DeShields - https://www.andredeshields.com/ Clue (The 1985 Movie) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clue_(film) Amy Dickinson - https://amydickinson.com/ R. Eric Thomas’s Here For It News Letter - https://letter.rericthomas.com/ Maxine Waters - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxine_Waters Ann Patchett - http://www.annpatchett.com/ Festival of Homiletics - https://festivalofhomiletics.com/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest this week is bringing core insights into the kitchen so that everyone can: a.) enjoy cooking and b.) turn it from a massive chore to a bright spot in your day. Author, blogger and “accidental cook” Bri McKoy is here, talking with Jen about the best practices and advice on how to become the kind of cook you want to be for your own life. Drawn from her essential cookbook, “The Cooks Book: Recipes for Keeps and Essential Techniques to Master Everyday Cooking,” Bri wants to share what she’s learned in her kitchen so that everyone’s kitchen can become a place of confidence and joy. Jen and Bri dish on: Why it matters where you put things in your kitchen—and how small changes can make a big impact The Forever Grocery list, is Bri’s tried and true list of things you should always have on hand in your kitchen so that you limit your time shopping and planning Bri’s Kitchen Techniques - simple rules that help us make decisions in the kitchen What you need to know about pairing the right wine with the right foods and how to stock your bar with the essentials If there’s more cooking in your life this summer with kids at home, guests coming to visit, or budget-conscious cooking when traveling, this relatable episode will give you the tools you need to de-stress your kitchen and make it a place for great food and great fun! * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I come from a background of I didn't like cooking. I didn't wanna be in the kitchen. Every aspect of it, from the grocery shopping to the cleaning to the prepping was the worst. Then, when I started to learn how to cook, I became so much more joyful and less stressed out.” - Bri McKoy “I have this arsenal of these five basic things. That means I have become confident and joyful in the kitchen. I teach those tips, tricks, techniques, recipes so that other people can feel like even if they depart from my cookbook, they will have success with every other recipe they try.” - Bri McKoy “I always say that a sauce can make a meal. Like give it a glow up” - Bri McKoy Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Cooks Book: Recipes for Keeps and Essential Techniques to Master Everyday Cooking - https://bit.ly/3DQg6Ws Cooking MeCourse ft. Jen and Bri - https://jenhatmaker.com/me-course/cooking/ Feed These People (Jen’s cookbook) - https://jenhatmaker.com/feed-these-people/ The Joy of Cooking (Cookbook) - https://bit.ly/3YpPbdv Country Crock Buttery Spread - https://bit.ly/3OrCRER Wine & Spirit Education Trust - https://bit.ly/3OMZPb1 Come and Eat: A Celebration of Love and Grace Around the Everyday Table (Bri’s Latest Cookbook) - https://bit.ly/3qqt89T Guest’s Links: Bri’s Website - https://oursavorylife.com/ Bri’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/brimckoy Bri’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/brimckoy Bri’s Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/brimckoy/ Bri’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brimckoy/ Bri’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNkSDrh24WkP4HQbCfnPtwA? Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do you struggle to feel truly at home in your body? We’re here to tell you; that it is possible. Our episode this week is a topic we return to often because we just can’t hear it enough; how we can heal our connections to our bodies. We have author and embodiment expert, Prentis Hemphill on the show, and she and Jen explore the idea of healing through embodied practices. Prentis shares poignant insights from their work in the Black community processing racial trauma through reconnecting to embodied cultural practices. Here’s another piece of good news–when you heal your connection to your body, you present a vision of embodied healing that radiates outward - from ourselves to our communities. That in turn can transform oppressive cultures through grounded love. The possibilities are endless when we take agency over our bodies! Jen and Prentis discuss: the definitions of somatic practices and embodied healing the role of embodiment in individual healing, processing trauma, and developing resilience the connection between individual embodied healing work and the potential for broader cultural/societal healing and transformation the lack of short-term optimism for societal change, but how unshakable faith rooted in human connection and community will eventually turn the tide * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes; "Somatics is the study of how our experiences and traumas live in the body. It's also a story of how our bodies can be resilient." - by Prentis Hemphill "I think, generally, the times I feel most free are when I'm with my people and feel fully accepted and loved. When we're eating or dancing or we're cracking up and falling off the couch is when my body feels the absolute freest — when I'm in a loving community." - by Prentis Hemphill "I love embodiment. I think a lot of it fundamentally is trying to point us in the direction of relationship and authenticity, courage, and care. I think that's when we will be most embodied is when we can live those values." - by Prentis Hemphill "I think, generally, our culture just doesn't take the space and time to grieve the things that we need to grieve. We haven't celebrated the things we need to celebrate. There's a lot of denial and that stifles our growth. It keeps us, as a society, deeply immature. And I think if we could make some space for those things, a lot would change." - by Prentis Hemphill "There are no more words that can be said. We can keep talking, but there are not really any more words to say. There's something that has to happen. It has to take root in your belly. It has to be expressed through your actions. You have to change." - by Prentis Hemphill "To do anything [to create change] is going to be contingent on our ability to stay in relationship with each other." - by Prentis Hemphill Resources Mentioned in This Episode; The Black Embodiment Initiative at The Embodiment Institute - https://bit.ly/3xhlAda You Are Your Best Thing edited by Tarana Burke and Brené Brown - https://bit.ly/3z09C88 Holding Change by Adrienne Maree Brown - https://bit.ly/3RlD3Ig The Politics of Trauma by Staci Haynes - https://bit.ly/4cjpFwk What it Takes to Heal by Prentis Hemphill - https://bit.ly/4eoC6ZB Guest’s Links: Prentis’ Website - https://prentishemphill.com/ Prentis’ Twitter - https://twitter.com/prentishemphill Prentis’ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/prentishemphill Prentis’ Finding Our Way Podcast - https://linktr.ee/findingourwaypod Prentis’ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/prentishemphill Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming in hot for our Queer Futures series, we’re bringing you an interview previously aired on For The Love’s Premium Podcast channel with celebrity Peloton instructor, Cody Rigsby. Cody has gained a devoted following through his engaging and motivational fitness classes on the Peloton platform. He talks about his memoir "XOXO Cody: An Opinionated Homosexual's Guide to Self-Love, Relationships and Tactful Pettiness" in which he opens up about transitioning from professional dance to fitness, his relationship with his mother who struggled with addiction and bipolar disorder, and how he aims to empower others through vulnerability and self-love. With his vibrant personality and inspirational story, Cody has become a celebrity in his own right. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I think the biggest obstacle to someone starting a fitness journey is feeling intimidated. You don't know what you're doing. You don't look like the people that are at the gym. Your body doesn't know what it's doing. So it's super overwhelming. So if you can take that and push it all to the side and just be like, ‘Okay, [where] in this space can I have fun?’” - Cody Rigsby “No matter how much we love anybody in our life, specifically our parents, dealing with addiction is hard. It's challenging. You don't really know the effects of it when you're a kid until you look back as an adult and be like, ‘Oh wow, that was really messed up.’” - Cody Rigsby “In life, it gets so busy. We're wrapped up in work, we really forget what life used to be or the struggles that we had and the aspirations that we have. Then you sit in the present and you have a moment of gratitude and say to yourself, ‘Wow, I have a lot of the things that I always wanted and I've let go of so many of the things that were holding me back.” - Cody Rigsby Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Cody on Dancing with the Stars - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JjDU_DKpeQ One Peloton Community - https://www.onepeloton.com/blog/ XOXO, Cody: An Opinionated Homosexual’s Guide to Self-Love, Relationships, and Tactful Pettiness - https://bit.ly/3z0FkSN Dancing with the Stars ft. Cody Rigsby - https://bit.ly/4cjlCjv Jess King: Peloton Instructor - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/jessicaking Robin Arzón: Peloton Instructor - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/jessicaking Glamorous (Netflix TV Series) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81076871 Tiger King (Netflix Documentary) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81115994 Guest’s Links: Cody’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/codyrigsby/ Cody’s Peloton Page - https://www.onepeloton.com/instructors/bike/codyrigsby Cody’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/codyrigsbyfitness/ Cody’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/CodyRigsby Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This powerful episode in our Queer Futures series features an enlightening conversation about power structures with Jen and renowned author Roxane Gay and co-writer Megan Pillow. The women explore not only the concept of individual power, but how we can engage in community empowerment. Together, they delve into how marginalized communities, particularly LGBTQ+ individuals, can claim their power and challenge existing power structures to create a more inclusive and just society. Discussion includes: Claiming Individual Power: How women, LGBTQ+ individuals, and others can assert their power in personal and professional spaces. Challenging Power Structures: The importance of calling out abuses of power and questioning the status quo Empowerment Through Solidarity: The role of community and collective action in amplifying individual voices and driving social progress. Re-examining Power Dynamics: How rethinking traditional notions of gender, race, and power can lead to more equitable outcomes. Focusing on the Margins: The significance of centering marginalized voices and experiences in conversations about power and progress. Roxane and Megan discuss practical steps that anyone can take to empower others around them. We’re encouraged to ask ourselves critical questions about our own relationships to power and to question the power sources that infringe on the rights of others and use our individual power to disrupt them. Every small act of resistance contributes to a larger movement for justice. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Power doesn't affect all of us equally and some people are able to wield power or are given power, and others have power wielded against them. There are all kinds of factors that contribute to the why of that.” - Dr. Roxane Gay “When you see an abuse of power, call it out and identify it. Oftentimes power works because nobody questions it and nobody challenges it.” - Dr. Roxane Gay "We have to use voting as one tool [to enact change], but we have to figure out other ways to be involved in our communities and to enact other forms of power, not just rely on voting as the singular tool that we use to try to enact change.” - Dr. Roxane Gay “The queer future is complicated. I think the queer future is much better than the queer past, and we are really enjoying a lot of freedom. But it's not enough and until all of us are free, none of us are free.” - Dr. Roxane Gay Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Bad Feminist by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/bad-feminist/ Difficult Women by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/difficult-women/ Hunger by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://roxanegay.com/books/hunger/ All of Roxane’s Books - https://roxanegay.com/books/ Do The Work: A Guide to Understanding Power and Creating Change by Dr.Roxane Gay and Dr. Megan Pillow - https://bit.ly/45nxhvd The Power Book: What is it, Who Has it, and Why? by Dr. Roxane Gay - https://bit.ly/3VBRYAl Obergefell v. Hodges (2015 Supreme Court case making same-sex marriages legal in the U.S.) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges Guest’s Links: Roxane’s Website - https://roxanegay.com/ Roxane’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/roxanegay74 Roxane’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/roxanegay74 The Audacity (Roxane and Megan’s Stubstack Blog) - https://audacity.substack.com/ Megan’s Website - https://www.meganpillow.com/ Megan’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/megpillow Megan’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/megpillow77/ Craftwork (Megan’s Substack Blog) - https://craftwork.substack.com/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special bonus episode of the For the Love Podcast, Jen sits down with her literary hero — beloved author and teacher, Anne Lamott, whose candid, humorous writing has inspired millions to embrace their imperfect selves. Anne and Jen explore the hard-won wisdom distilled across Anne's 45-year career and 20 books - from finding radical self-love after a lifetime of shame, to surrendering to life's ordinary miracles during periods of existential crisis. With refreshing irreverence, Anne shares her lessons on unearthing your deepest, truest voice and faith that new paths are waiting, even when the way forward feels hopelessly obscured. Jen and Anne discuss The importance of radical self-love, letting go of shame, and being your own priority before trying to please or gain approval from others Having faith that there is a "shape" or path waiting for you, even if you can't see it yet, by surrendering and doing the work of self-examination The wisdom that comes with age in realizing how little you know The way small, mundane acts can be profound expressions of love and service to buoy you during dark periods For anyone who has ever felt cracked by life's circumstances, Anne's perspective provides a roadmap back to wholeness. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[I've been] giving myself deeper and deeper permission to use my own voice and to stop trying to get people to like or respect me or to think I'm more educated than I am--which I'm not at all educated--and to just get kind of cleaner in my own being so that I could write the deepest I could go in my own truest voice and just get that day's work done one day at a time. It's like nautilus for the soul. To keep writing your truth with your own weird, quirky, way of expressing yourself and being affirmed that people seem to like it and to keep going.” - Anne Lamott "What love manifests is making more mistakes. Knowing as a writer, that a pile of papers and notes and index cards is a fertile field, and you don't need to know what you're going to do with them. They know what you're going to do with them. The material knows what you're going to do with it, and it's going to get back to you as it trusts more and more that you're a reliable narrator." - Anne Lamott “We do some deep dive into the obstacles to radical self-love and to just surrendering to the path of goodness or God or the holiness. The first thing God says to Moses is 'take off your shoes. Feel the earth beneath your feet. This is holy ground.' And that is what God has for you, starting right now. Take off your shoes and wiggle your toes in the earth. Look up. Breathe in. And when you are restored from what you've been through, all this nautilus for your soul you've been doing, you're going to step forward into that shape.” - Anne Lamott Resources Mentioned in this Bonus Episode: Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life - https://bit.ly/3K1JZGg Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/3ytWzeK The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford - https://bit.ly/3JZCP5s Hard Laughter: A Novel by Anne Lamott - https://bit.ly/4bFcO7b Five Rules of Being a Grown-Up (Article by CJ Green) - https://bit.ly/4bXbmxl 8 Best Anne Lamott Books -https://bit.ly/3yoWbyj Guest Links: Twitter - https://twitter.com/annelamott/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AnneLamott/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/annelamott/ Penguin Random House - https://sites.prh.com/annelamott Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen Hatmaker revisits one of the most impactful and downloaded episodes from her "For the Love" podcast's 7-year history. In this powerful encore, she has a candid conversation with acclaimed writer and speaker Jonathan Merritt who publicly comes out as gay for the first time during their interview. Jen and Jonathan reflect on their intertwined journeys - she as an ally leaving the evangelical world, he as a prominent faith voice reckoning with his sexuality. Brace yourself for an emotional, insightful look at the joy and pain of Jonathan's coming out experience. This is one powerhouse episode you won't want to miss again (or for the first time!). * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I had a choice. I could either leave the idea of being loved in that way and loving in that way behind and to get belonging and acceptance, or I could choose to be rejected by the people that I was given as a family and a faith community and I could go off on my own way and try to find love. And that's a tough decision.” – Jonathan Merritt “I'd grown up hearing this, ‘we hate the sin, we love the sinner.’ And yet, everywhere I looked was all this sin-hate. And there was no marking of loving these people.” – Jonathan Merritt “The number one reason that someone changes their views on homosexuality or same-sex marriage is how they answer the question, ‘Do you have a close family member or friend who is gay?’” – Jonathan Merritt “I live in an Episcopal seminary. You feel hundreds of years of prayers that have been prayed here by good people. People who joined the Civil Rights Movement. And people who were marching after the Stonewall Riots. And people who did it because they loved Jesus and not in spite of that fact.” – Jonathan Merritt "American evangelicalism is predicated on the existence of an enemy to fight, and that keeps people coming to church. It's the need to be against, right? And people revel in that, that's the selling point." – Jonathan Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://bit.ly/3BQ2FUl How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://bit.ly/3IdV3gW Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, Gay Marriage & More - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3IhrUS0 Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3siB9Ms Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LXWlyX Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3LVOTUV A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars - Jonathan Merritt - https://bit.ly/3Vvj8J6 Dr. Michael Lindsay - Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile James Martin - Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/ My Guncle and Me by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.amazon.com/My-Guncle-Me-Jonathan-Merritt/dp/0762485612 Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/JonathanMerritt Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen and award-winning author, Kelly Barnhill, discuss the powerful themes and inspirations behind her genre-defying book "When Women Were Dragons." Sparked by her outrage during the Kavanaugh hearings, Barnhill created a bold metaphor where women transform into dragons to escape societal oppression. In this conversation, she delves into her controversial ending that ultimately represents the multitude of paths to female empowerment. Barnhill also examines the dangerous historical pattern of silencing trauma and marginalized voices, from the 1918 flu to violent racial tensions. Jen and Kelly discuss: “When Women Were Dragons’" exploration of women transforming into dragons as a metaphor for rebelling against oppression and societal constraints. The ending and how it represents there are multiple valid paths for women's empowerment - some transformative, others finding power in conventional roles. Highlights about the historical pattern of silencing traumatic events and oppression of marginalized groups. Portrayals of womanhood as expansive and defying rigid societal definitions of what a woman is or can be. Novel Summary: "When Women Were Dragons" by Kelly Barnhill is a feminist fantasy novel that explores themes of female empowerment, societal repression, and transformation. Set in an alternate 1950s America, the story revolves around a mysterious event known as the "Mass Dragoning of 1955," where a significant number of women across the country inexplicably turn into dragons and fly away, leaving behind their human lives. The protagonist, Alex Green, navigates life in the aftermath of this event. She grows up in a society that tries to suppress and erase the memory of the dragonings, facing the stigma and secrecy surrounding the topic. Alex's journey involves uncovering family secrets, particularly those related to her aunt Marla, who was one of the women who transformed. As Alex learns more about her aunt's life and the circumstances of the dragonings, she begins to understand the broader implications of the event and its connection to women's liberation and agency. * * * Guest’s Links: Kelly’s Website - https://kellybarnhill.wordpress.com/ Kelly’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/insufferable_blabbermouth/ Kelly’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/kellybarnhill Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Girl Who Drank the Moon by Kelly Barnhill - https://bit.ly/3Vd01m3 The Book of Dragons: An Anthology - https://bit.ly/4bO3ldN Kavanaugh Hearing - https://supreme.justia.com/justices/brett-m-kavanaugh/ 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic - https://bit.ly/3ysjfvX The Book of Love: A Novel by Kelly Link - https://bit.ly/4btgQzN Nettle & Bone - https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250824776/nettlebone Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week’s top episode from the archives is our number one most listened to episode. In a profoundly moving encore episode, Jen Hatmaker shares the story of interviewing her daughter, Sydney, as Sydney shared her emotional coming out story. This raw conversation follows Sydney as she vulnerably shares her journey of accepting herself as gay while still holding onto her faith–and we’re very excited to share this again during Pride Month as part of our Queer Futures series. Jen reintroduces the episode reflecting on what’s changed since this conversation and how it’s affected her community. Three years later, this episode remains an incredible force, sparking deep discussions around LGBTQ+ issues and Christianity in our community. Jen recalls the immense reach and impact this episode evoked - from mending broken family relationships to causing church leaders to reevaluate their approach. As Jen reflects on Sydney’s growth, it’s a beautiful reminder that embracing authenticity allows people to flourish. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all.” -Sydney Hatmaker “It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God.” -Sydney Hatmaker “Your allyship can't be about you, and it can't be performative, and it has to be for everybody. And it has to be about love.” -Sydney Hatmaker Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this emotionally charged last episode in our For the Love of the Matriarchy series, Jen shares an intimate and profound conversation with Christine Blasey Ford, who came into the public eye when she testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee on September 27th, 2018, while it was considering the nomination of Judge Brett Kavanaugh to the United States Supreme Court; describing an alleged sexual assault by the Supreme Court nominee that took place at a high school party in the 80s. Christine, with brave vulnerability, opens up about her harrowing experience in the aftermath of her testimony and the tsunami of public scrutiny she faced. Through her story, we're reminded of the incredible power of women when we come together, support one another, and find our collective voice against injustices. This episode is not just a dialogue; it's a clarion call to all women to connect, share, and empower each other in a world that often seeks to silence us. Christine shares with Jen: the moment she heard that Brett Kavanaugh was on a short list of Supreme Court justice nominees and the immediate reaction that she needed those in power to know the truth the emotional toll the aftermath of the experience took on Christine and her family, and the safety measures they had to employ because of constant death threats why she decided to write a book, One Way Back, to tell the story now, citing what she learned through the experience and what she knows now about the many other women in history who have also spoken their truth about sexual harassment and assault the incredible amount of support she received from women and sexual assault survivors in the form of letters, which carried her through some of the most difficult moments Jen and Christine's conversation underscores a crucial message: when women connect, we're not just powerful together; we're unstoppable. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It took many years to feel that I was ready to say something and to break the silence. I had been silent for so long. I was feeling a little bit guilty even, for having so much focus and learning about the contributions of so many other women in so many different venues who have spoken up against sexual harassment and sexual assault. And I just thought, 'Wow, I need to share all the things that I didn't know beforehand. Maybe I could share them and maybe it will help someone.'" - Christine Blasey Ford “The system can often work in ways that make [women] feel divided and makes us feel negatively towards each other. But when we actually connect, we're really powerful together.” - Christine Blasey Ford Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Christine’s Senate Judiciary Committee Testimony - https://bit.ly/3UzlYeof One Way Back: A Memoir by Christine Blasey Ford - https://bit.ly/4dHlk7C Washington Post Article featuring Christine Blasey Ford - https://bit.ly/4bjFNh3 Guest’s Links: Christine’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/christine_talkinout/ Christine’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/fordchristine66 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re diving into the profound biological, psychological and social shifts experienced when becoming a mother - a process known as "matrescence.” Jen sits down with science journalist, Lucy Jones, who experienced a seismic identity shift that arose after the birth of her first child. Lucy and Jen unpack groundbreaking neuroscience research and they expose the deep-rooted myths and unrealistic expectations surrounding modern motherhood. From the minimizing of postpartum struggles to the pressure of "natural birthing" ideals, Lucy reveals how these systemic fictions can breed shame, isolation and maternal mental health crises. Jen and Lucy discuss: The concept of "matrescence" - the biological, psychological and social transition to becoming a mother that renders profound identity changes How modern cultural myths and idealized notions of motherhood as blissful and "natural" can be deeply alienating and contribute to maternal mental health issues The systemic lack of scientific research and societal rituals to prepare and support women through the seismic transformation of matrescence The need to construct new narratives, share vulnerable experiences, and build community care around the modern realities of the matrescence * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Matrescence] is a very simple concept that means the process of becoming a mother. The word is a little bit like 'adolescence'. It was coined by the late American anthropologist Dana Rafael in the 70's. She also coined the word 'doula'. She first wrote about it in an essay collection published in 1974 where she talks about how, in most societies and cultures across the world, people have always had a sense that a mother is born when a baby is born. But she also describes your identity, your social relationships, your roles, your everyday life, your mind, your psychology, and your emotions." - Lucy Jones Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Matrescence by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/4dDYI83 Foxes Unearthed by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/44E9Uxp Losing Eden by Lucy Jones - https://bit.ly/4byVO2k Dana Rafael (an American Anthropologist) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Raphael “The Birth of a Mother” (A New York Times Article by Alexandra Sacks) - https://bit.ly/4bow0WK 2017 NIH Article on Pregnancy Leading to Changes in the Brain - https://bit.ly/3UAGiMK Of Woman Born by Adrienne Rich - https://wwnorton.com/books/Of-Woman-Born/ Andrea O’Reilly - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_O'Reilly Guest’s Links: Lucy’s Website: https://lucyfjones.com/ Lucy’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/lucyjones Lucy’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lucyfjones/ Lucy’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lucyjonesbooks/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of the Matriarchy series, we explore how deeply ingrained patriarchal narratives can create a policing effect on the behavior of women. Author, Elise Loehnen, discusses her book "On Our Best Behavior" which examines how concepts like the seven deadly sins have historically been used to restrict women's behavior and police their adherence to an idealized form of "goodness." Loehnen unpacks the insidious ways women are culturally conditioned from a young age to suppress normal human drives like anger, ambition, and sexuality. And how disrupting rigid gender stereotypes is important when raising the next generation in order to build a more compassionate world. Jen and Elise discuss: How women are culturally conditioned and expected to embody "goodness" while men are oriented toward power How concepts like the "seven deadly sins" have historically been used as a patriarchal "punch card" to police women's behavior Why raising boys to have an emotional inner life nurtures positive identity development The current era of politics that calls for women to challenge the patriarchal system while also having compassionate dialogue to build a new, care-centered world where everyone can flourish * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Women are trained for goodness and men are trained for power.” - Elise Loehnen “The worst thing for a woman is reputational harm--just the assigning of her badness. Bad mother. Toxic coworker. Toxic boss. Unkind. She says the wrong thing. And it's sort of impossible to defend yourself against that. We have zero tolerance, and it's very scary.” - Elise Loehnen "We need a culture where the men are like, 'I would like to be more like women. I need to be caring. I want to be nurturing and creative. And yes, I can be strong and I can be masculine, but I also need this underdeveloped muscle.'" - Elise Loehnen Resources Mentioned in This Episode: On Our Best Behavior by Elise Loehnen - https://bit.ly/44tz41D Goop - https://goop.com For the Love of Being Seen and Heard ft. Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/4b8YT9C Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/3JO7FOn Evagrius Ponticus (Fourth Century Christian Monk) - https://bit.ly/4b7zEV5 Pope Gregory on the 7 Deadly Sins - https://bit.ly/3y1J1XK Harvey Weinstein Abuse Cases - https://bit.ly/4b5ktM5 Carol Gilligan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Gilligan In a Different Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3JQ9IBh Human Voice by Carol Gilligan - https://bit.ly/3UQ1Rcn Andrew Tate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Tate Order, Disorder, Reorder (An idea Developed by Richard Rohr) - https://bit.ly/44xzHqK For the Love of The Enneagram ft. Richard Rohr - https://bit.ly/3QzzZaW Loretta Ross - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loretta_Ross Guest’s Links: Elise’s Website - https://www.eliseloehnen.com/ Elise’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/eliseloehnen/ Elise’s Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/eloehnen Elise’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/EliseLoehnen/ Elise’s LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elise-loehnen-b867523/ Pulling the Thread (Elise’s Stubstack Blog) - https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/ Pulling the Thread (Elise’s Podcast) - https://www.eliseloehnen.com/episodes Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen and Isabel Allende discuss her novel, Violeta, and why Allende makes her bold choices in characters, events, and settings. Allende shares her fascinating personal background - born in Peru, living as a refugee, and eventually immigrating to the U.S. where she began her writing career. Allende explains how Violeta's story was inspired by her own mother's life and letters, which Allende has meticulously preserved over decades. The author discusses how Violeta's complicated romantic relationships and experiences of political upheaval mirror Allende's own life. Particularly compelling moments include: Allende's description and showing of the extensive archive of her mother's letters The author's insights on the challenges women writers face, having to work harder than men to achieve respect Allende's personal experiences with family tragedy that informed the novel The author's delight in crafting the "villain" character of Julián, as well as the beloved nanny character based on Allende's own housekeeper Overall, you’ll hear a dynamic conversation between Jen and Isabel on life, love, and loss. Novel Summary: The novel follows the life of Violeta, who is born in 1920 in the aftermath of World War I and the onset of Spanish flu pandemic. The story traces Violeta's tumultuous life as she navigates historic events, including the Great Depression forcing her family into poverty and a relocation to a remote part of their South American homeland. Structured through a series of letters Violeta writes to her grandson, the narrative portrays her resilience, passion, and humor against the backdrop of major 20th century historical events and upheavals, including women's rights struggles. The story arcs through Violeta's experiences of love, heartbreak, and the ebb and flow of wealth, set against the sweeping historical context of an unnamed South American country. * * * Guest’s Links: Isabel’s Website - https://www.isabelallende.com/en Isabel’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/allendeisabel/ Isabel’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/isabellallende Isabel’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/isabelallende/ Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: List of Isabel’s Books - https://www.isabelallende.com/en/books Violeta by Isabel Allende - ​​https://www.isabelallende.com/en/book/violeta James by Percival Everett - https://www.amazon.com/James-Novel-Percival-Everett/dp/0385550367 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For this special bonus episode, Jen talks with WNBA star, Brittney Griner, who shares her powerful story of resilience after she was wrongfully detained in Russian prisons for nearly a year. Brittney provides a heartbreaking firsthand account of the inhumane conditions she endured, from the lack of legal rights and translators to cruel psychological tactics by guards. She opens up about the pivotal role her faith played in giving her mental strength to survive. Brittney also discusses the ongoing trauma she has faced since returning home, and the renewed sense of motivation to use her voice and platform to advocate for other detainees abroad still seeking freedom. Jen and Brittney discuss: Griner's harrowing account of being imprisoned in Russia and how she’s fighting to get more US prisoners home The pivotal role her faith and reading the Bible played in giving her strength to survive mentally and emotionally. Her candid discussion of the ongoing trauma she's working through since returning to the U.S. Her optimism about the WNBA's rising popularity to force meaningful change in addressing the glaring pay gap with men's basketball. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "My biggest fear was the fear of being forgotten." - Brittney Griner "We feel like we're in control a lot in our everyday lives. But being over there, I was in a place where I needed help. I couldn't control anything. It was out of my hands. I had to rely on something, or I would have gone crazy...I would have Bible study on Sundays and I think that's what got me through, honestly." - Brittney Griner "We need everybody to buy into [the WNBA]. We need to challenge companies to stop just checking a box and saying, 'Oh, we fight for equality. We had a month. We had some shirts.' That's a step. But we need you to put dollars down to make a difference." - Brittney Griner Resources Mentioned in this Bonus Episode: Caitlin Clark - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlin_Clark “It Gets Better Project” - https://bit.ly/4al2EaZ Coming Home by Brittney Griner - https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Home-Brittney-Griner/dp/0593801342 Guest Link: Website - https://wearebg.org/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brittneyyevettegriner Twitter - https://twitter.com/brittneygriner Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/BrittneyGriner Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Continuing In our For the Love of The Matriarchy series, Jen talks with powerful women who are taking innovative approaches to their work, their relationships, and their joy. Bozoma Saint John is a trailblazing marketing executive whose career has taken her to the heights of companies like Pepsi, Apple, Uber and Netflix. But her path to becoming a "badass" has been one marked by profound loss and upheaval. From the loss of her first child and her husband's battle with cancer, to being told she's "too much" by those closest to her, Bozoma opens up about summoning resilience from life's lowest lows. She discusses redefining what true strength looks like, embracing authenticity even when it ruffles the status quo, and pioneering a collaborative model of single parenthood that makes space for her daughter's voice. Jen and Bozoma discuss: Embracing authenticity even when it ruffles the status quo and offends those in power Redefining strength not as impenetrable toughness, but as the pliability in experiencing brokenness yet still rising again The complexities of reconciling life's tragedies with its gifts and holding space for gratitude amid loss Pioneering a collaborative, trust-based model of single parenthood that makes space for her daughter's voice and needs For anyone craving inspiration to honor their scars while uncompromisingly claiming their power, this is a master class. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Privilege is a reliable enemy of equality. And it is sometimes insidious the lengths we’ll go to protect it because we're still benefiting [from it].” - Bozoma Saint John "You don't have to have had the same losses I've had or suffered the same way I suffered to prove that you are worthy of the scars that you bear. You have them and it's okay." - Bozoma Saint John “My parenting has changed because I need to make space for [my daughter] to be honest with me about what she needs so that I can be the mother that she needs; not necessarily the mother that I think is needed.” - Bozoma Saint John "The most amazing thing about being human is how incredibly tied we are to each other. And it is a beautiful thing that even through our pain, we are still tied together as human beings." - Bozoma Saint John Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Bozoma’s Marketing Hall of Fame Induction: https://marketinghalloffame.org/inductees-leading-marketers/bozoma-saint-john-2022-marketing-inductee/ 2021 Most Influential CMO: https://www.forbes.com/connect/event/2021-wmi-cmos/ Ambassador to the African Diaspora and Special Envoy to the President of Ghana: https://bit.ly/4bhmVig. Guest’s Links: Bozoma’s Website: https://www.bozomasaintjohn.com/ Bozoma’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SaintBoz Bozoma’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/badassboz Bozoma’s Instagram: http://instagram.com/badassboz Bozoma’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bozoma-saint-john-0305441/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the For The Love of The Matriarchy series where we’ll explore all the different aspects of women working to embrace agency and celebrating their worth. As we celebrate the power of women and their accomplishments, we’ll also look at the challenges women have faced in a patriarchal society (and still face) and what that means for their bodies and autonomy. Cait West is an author who grew up in an extreme patriarchal Christian community. She was taught from a young age that her sole purpose was to become a submissive wife and mother. This pervasive sense of having no agency or control over her own life, combined with the constant messaging that she was inherently sinful and unworthy, took a profound toll on Cait's mental health, causing severe anxiety and depression from a very young age. Jen and Cait delve into how families can fall into toxic belief systems, and what recovery can look like. Jen and Cait discuss: The impact of being raised in a fundamentalist, patriarchal environment that severely restricts a woman's autonomy, education, and life choices. The healing power of finding community, sharing one's story, and reclaiming agency after experiencing spiritual abuse and trauma. The difficult but important choice of breaking free from oppressive systems, even when it means severing ties with your own family * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: "[My husband] has always been my steady companion because he experienced some of that verbal abuse from my dad, and he knew what it was like...When I would have anxiety attacks, he didn't understand what was going on either, but he would just sit with me until I could get through it and come back to regulate my nervous system. He just was there with me through it. And that meant more than having someone try to fix it or totally tell me what to do." - Cait West "I realized I had a story to tell. Going to writing conferences and learning from other writers like you who were talking about speaking up for injustice, I decided to tell part of my story online. I started doing that around 2018 and realized there's a lot more people who've been through this and they've just been silenced or afraid — people who if they say something, their family's going to cut them off. That's what happened to me in 2019. I had an interview and I started talking online about my experience and my dad decided not to talk to me anymore. I understand that fear but once I lost that relationship, I felt liberated to tell my story. Because somebody has to. Somebody has to say something." - Cait West "Cait's my real first name, and then West is my grandmother's — what we call the maiden name. It's always resonated with me, my mother's heritage, because they're Southerners, they grew up in poverty. The women in my family have always been the leaders and the strong people of faith. And so to me, it's kind of like calling back to that heritage and recognizing it and trying to hold on to some kind of legacy after losing so much of my life." - Cait West Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Christian Patriarchy Movement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_patriarchy Tears of Eden (Nonprofit for survivors of spiritual abuse - https://www.tearsofeden.org/ Rift: A Memoir by Cait West - https://www.caitwest.com/book Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.caitwest.com/ Twitter - https://bit.ly/3UytS9l Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/caitwestwrites/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/caitwestwrites/?hl=en TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@caitwestwrites Substack - https://caitwest.substack.com/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In our lives, we are often confronted with moments of profound change - whether it's the result of circumstances beyond our control, or a deliberate choice to step into something new. During these pivotal transitions, it can be tempting to focus on pleasing others or trying to meet the expectations of our family, friends, and community. However, truly transformative growth requires the courage to choose ourselves and to trust our inner wisdom. Author and activist, Najwa Zebian, offers a powerful example of what it looks like to reclaim one's autonomy in the face of a lifetime of feeling out of place and unworthy. Her journey of self-discovery provides a roadmap for navigating change with conviction, self-compassion, and a commitment to living one's truth. Jen and Najwa explore: The profound impact of emotional neglect and feeling out of place can deeply shape one's self-worth and choices later in life. Connecting with the power of language and self-expression can be a vital lifeline and pathway to healing. Making bold choices for oneself can be a necessary and courageous act of self-preservation. Allowing one's "world to revolve around you" and trusting your own inner wisdom is essential for navigating life's changes and uncertainties with conviction and self-compassion. Author Bio Dr. Najwa Zebian is a Lebanese-Canadian activist, author, speaker, and educator. Najwa began to write to connect with and help heal her first students, who were a group of young refugees. Through that effort with her students, she began a deep healing process for herself. She is the author of six books. She delivered the Ted Talk, “Finding Home Through Poetry.” She also recently launched a digital school called Soul Academy and a podcast called “In the Clear.” Her latest book is called “The Only Constant.” * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Neglect isn't just about not getting your basic needs met. I think the most harmful neglect is not getting the things you do need." - Najwa Zebian "There was always this invitation to not allow myself to experience anger because it was a negative thing. But now I realize there's healthy anger; there's healthy resentment; and it's also healthy to project those feelings outwards. Otherwise, they're inside." - Najwa Zebian "I look at myself as a people pleaser — as somebody who's like, "I can't handle disappointing someone, I can't handle disappointing my family, I can't." But it got to a point where I was definitely willing to do that because I was so aware that continuing to live my life in a certain way meant that I was going to be suffering so much, and I wasn't willing to suffer in that way [anymore].” - Najwa Zebian Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Finding Home Through Poetry (Najwa’s Ted Talk) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNRygxe_8Ys Soul Academy (Najwa’s Digital School) - https://najwa-soul-academy.teachable.com/p/home In the Clear (Najwa’s Podcast) - https://najwazebian.com/podcasts The Only Constant by Najwa Zebian - https://najwazebian.com/the-only-constant Welcome Home by Najwa Zebian - https://najwazebian.com/welcome-home Hijab - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab Mind Platter by Najwa Zebian - https://najwazebian.com/mind-platter Guest’s Links: Najwa’s Website - https://najwazebian.com/ Najwa’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/najwazebian Najwa’s Tik Tok - https://www.tiktok.com/@najwazebian Najwa’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/najwazebian1 Najwa’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/najwazebian Najwa’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/najwazebian Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Million Dollar Advice is a work and career advice podcast hosted by friends and colleagues Kim Lessing and Kate Arend. Together, Kim and Kate run Amy Poehler’s Paper Kite Productions and are very cool and good at their jobs. Each week, they will help live callers with their work-related dilemmas. Whether you have a question or you just like listening to other people’s problems, this show will change your life. If you have a problem at work or a career question big or small, write in to [email protected] or leave a message on the Million Dollar Advice Hotline (888) 799-6327. Kim and Kate can’t wait to give you some Million Dollar Advice! * * * Connect with Our Friends! Million Dollar Advice Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/million-dollar-advice/id1737475094 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Making a change in our lives can feel like a big, all encompassing thing; and sometimes we avoid change because of that very notion. But here’s some good news: making meaningful change in our lives actually starts with one small choice at a time, and it doesn’t have to be overwhelming or hard. This week, we’ve got the inside scoop on how to form habits that you actually want to stick with and someone who is going to let us in on the simple secrets to real and lasting change. James Clear is the bestselling author of “Atomic Habits.” His approach to building sustainable habits has resonated with millions, helping people make positive changes and reach their full potential. In this conversation, James shares personal stories and scientific principles to empower journeys of growth and transformation. Jen even shares her personal experience of choosing one small habit to do each day in the wake of her seismic divorce and how that choice radically affected the trajectory of her recovery. Jen and James explore: How to embrace a 1% improvement mindset - small, incremental changes compound over time and lead to meaningful results. The willingness to try different approaches and habits until you find what works for you Why we’ll be set up for success in the long run by having a toolbox of different strategies instead of adhering to specific “must-have” habits The importance of focusing on your identity and becoming the type of person you want to be, rather than just setting goals. No matter where you are in life —you have it within you to make meaningful and practical changes in your life. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There was a time in my life when I was forced to start small. So I was trying to find little wins; just something I could look at and be like 'Today was a good day.' I think that mindset ended up really helping me in later life." - James Clear "The whole world is going to emphasize your position and where you are. What I'm trying to emphasize is, "Are you getting 1% better? 1% worse? Is the arrow pointing up to the right, even if it's just a little bit? Or have you flatlined?" Because if you're on a good trajectory, all you need is time. All you need is patience. Time will magnify whatever you feed it." - James Clear “There is no one way to build better habits. There are many ways. My job is not to tell you how to do it. My job is to lay all the tools out on the table, rather than trying to tell you this is the way to build habits.” - James Clear “It's very easy, once you're listening to a conversation about habits or thinking about your own habits, to bite off more than you can chew, or start getting pulled in ten directions and be like; 'I'm going to change all ten of these things.' I think one good thing to remind yourself of is this energy will naturally extend into other areas of your life. So maybe take just one of those ten things and try to really master that.” - James Clear "There's this common advice that if something doesn't work, you should try, try, try again and I think the better advice is if something doesn't work, you should try, try, try differently." - James Clear Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits James Clear’s 3-2-1 Newsletter - https://jamesclear.com/3-2-1 Guest’s Links: James Clear’s Website - https://jamesclear.com/ James Clear’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesclear/ James Clear’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/JamesClear James Clear’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jamesclear/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, book lovers! We’ve got something a little different straight coming to you from the Jen Hatmaker Book Club this month, and if you haven’t been a part of the conversation, we invite you to join us and all our fellow book nerds over at JenHatmakerBookClub.com. We’re sharing our March selection, with you, our dear listeners, and we hope it will inspire you and have you thinking a little differently about the lies we tell ourselves as women and how we can get to that next right thing for our lives. We’ve got the fabulous Jamie Kern Lima, the author of a new book called “Worthy.” If you don’t already know about Jamie, she’s the founder of IT Cosmetics and the author of another book, “Believe It,” which told the story of how she founded IT in her living room and how IT went on to be the largest luxury makeup brand in the country. But if that wasn’t enough, she eventually sold the company to makeup giant L’Oreal, making her the first female CEO of a L’Oreal brand in the company’s history. But her story is much more than a rags to riches adventure, which she continues in “Worthy”--it’s about how she overcame a fear of failure, the paralyzation of never feeling like she was enough, and a litany of rejection she faced through all phases of her career. “Worthy,” contains key lessons Jamie’s learned toward reversing lies we’ve been told and claiming new truths for ourselves, including: Why self love is important (and not selfish) and mirrors how deeply we can relate to and love others You can never achieve enough to feel like you are enough; that comes with believing in yourself innately as who you are Your past mistakes do not define your present worth or determine your future As Jamie says, the moment we learn to believe we are worthy is the moment unhealthy relationships fall away, ideas are birthed, and art is shared with the world. She invites us to step into the freedom that happens when we embrace who we truly are and believe we are worthy of the good things that come our way. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If we don't think we're worthy of something, we will either stay stuck, find a way to sabotage it, or–the best case is–we’ll go for it and achieve it. But we'll still feel unfulfilled and still feel like we're not enough in the process. ” - Jamie Kern Lima “If you are someone that prides yourself in being selfless and being a giver, and you can't think about doing this for yourself, the greatest gift you can give people is to learn to love yourself, and to learn to believe you are worthy. Because the depth of love that you have for yourself will expand the depth of love you now have for them.” - Jamie Kern Lima “I do not care how many past mistakes, failures, or things that you feel are shameful or regrettable incidents [you have had]. None of them define your worth.” - Jamie Kern Lima “I believe your intuition is never wrong. I believe it either leads you to the next right step or the next right lesson. I have peace and trust in that.” - Jamie Kern Lima “The moment a person learns to believe she is worthy, that is the moment unhealthy relationships end or unhealthy friendships end or ideas are birthed or hands are raised and art is shared with the world.” - Jamie Kern Lima Guest’s Links: Jamie’s Website Jamie’s Instagram Jamie’s Facebook Jamie’s Twitter Jamie’s YouTube Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Believe It by Jamie Kern Lima For the Love Podcast Episode ft. Jamie Kern Lima Worthy by Jamie Kern Lima For the Love Episode ft. Daniel Pink Feeding America (Food Bank Charity) “The Life You Want” Class (Taught by guest teacher Jamie Kern Lima) Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Continuing in our series of Embracing Change, Jen talks with an elite athlete who found their life caving in, leaving themselves with no other choice than to flow with the transitions. In this candid conversation, Jen and Olympic figure skater Gracie Gold delve into Gracie's battles with mental health, disordered eating, and the intense pressures of elite athletics. Gracie’s story speaks to immense strength - navigating the insidious grip of an eating disorder that spanned longer than many of her close relationships. Gracie recounts how the illusion of control through restrictive eating eventually triggered a "nuclear meltdown," forcing her to confront the compounding traumas. Jen and Gracie explore: The toxic underbelly of perfectionism glorified in figure skating and its ties to disordered eating Society's tendency to stigmatize mental illness that doesn't fit a textbook definition The arduous, perpetual work of managing an eating disorder Reclaiming authenticity after realizing her projected "ice princess" persona was unsustainable With refreshing candor, Gracie shares how curiosity and embracing life's small joys enabled her to begin reconstructing an integrated identity beyond skating's rigid expectations. Her courage to openly discuss such profound struggles is a beacon of hope for anyone confronting their inner critic. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: "In most industries, to be a woman in this world, typically and historically, you were rewarded if you were smaller." - Gracie Gold "Instead of feeling anxious that I don't have a plan and I don't have an exact to-do list with everything on it checked off — instead of finding anxiety in that, I try to find freedom." - Gracie Gold "[I'm] continuing to put one foot in front of the other and being okay with not knowing where I'm going and that the universe will bring me where I'm meant to go." - Gracie Gold “I just thought I could push through [depression]--very type A. I just thought 'Oh I can push through, if I just work harder, or be better, then it'll go away.' Which it didn't.” - Gracie Gold Resources Mentioned in This Episode: 2014 U.S. Olympic Figure Skating Team (Gracie’s team won a bronze medal) - https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/sochi-2014/athletes Outofshapeworthlessloser: A Memoir of Figure Skating, F*cking Up, and Figuring It Out - https://www.amazon.com/Outofshapeworthlessloser-Memoir-Figure-Skating-Figuring-ebook/dp/B0C4J8MLF6 Top Ten Female Figure Skaters of All Time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_scores_in_figure_skating Guest’s Links: Gracie’s Website - https://graciegold.figureskatersonline.com/ Gracie’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/GracieGold Gracie’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/GraceEGold Gracie’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/graciegold95 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our new series of Embracing Change is a deep examination of all the different ways change shows up in our lives and all the ways we can respond to it. As Jen says in this interview, our guest today went through a “chosen change.” Hers was a transformation that felt inevitable after all the small, incremental posture changes made her ready for the leap to follow — a leap toward more sanity, more love, and more joy. Joy Sullivan is a poet and community builder. Her new book “Instructions for Traveling West” is “for anyone flinging themselves into fresh starts.” She received a Masters in poetry from Miami University and has served as the poet-in-residence for the Wexner Center for the Arts. She joins the podcast today sharing her story of walking into the unknown. Through her unique viewpoint as a poet, she unlocks potent ways for us to trust our intuition and stay curious about what is scaring us. Jen and Joy touch on: The importance of embracing loneliness and stillness as opportunities for self-discovery and hearing one's true inner voice and callings. stories from Joy’s life that served as lessons for her to love herself more deeply Reclaiming selfhood by rupturing constrictive cultural and religious narratives, especially around womanhood and female identity For anyone feeling the tug to upend the inertia of their life and lean into evolution, this conversation is an inspiring guide for following one's deepest callings into new horizons. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: "I started driving west and I spent six weeks hiking in Sedona, being in the beautiful desert. During that time, I really had this sense of awakening and the sense of rupturing. It was that question like, ‘Am I doing work that matters?’ And I was so awake to my life again in that intense way that loneliness just pricks us alive. And I really began to grapple. I just looked at every aspect of my life and said, ‘Could there be more?’" - Joy Sullivan “I don't think it matters where you go, but to be able to give yourself an opportunity to really reinvent, that's the good stuff.” - Joy Sullivan "I didn't have the life that I sort of felt like I always should have had based on what a woman was supposed to get — a husband, kids, the stability of the white picket fence, etc. And what's been interesting is when I sort of recreated or fractured some of those stories culturally and religiously that I had been given, my life just expanded into possibility because it had never occurred to me that a woman could be really, really happy if she didn't choose those things." - Joy Sullivan “Poetry is the only place that can hold the unsayable. It's the only space we have that holds that which cannot be spoken in any other art form. All the ache, all the beauty, all the impossibility of being alive; that's what poems are for.” - Joy Sullivan Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Sustenance (A Community of Poets and Writers founded by Joy Sullivan) - https://joysullivanpoet.com/sustenance Necessary Salt (Joy Sullivan’s Substack Blog) - https://joysullivan.substack.com/ Instructions For Traveling West by Joy Sullivan (A book of poems coming April 9, 2024) - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/734503/instructions-for-traveling-west-by-joy-sullivan/ Guest’s Links: Joy’s Website - https://joysullivanpoet.com/ Joy’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/Joy_E_Sullivan Joy’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/joysullivanpoet/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re finishing up our For the Love of Wonderful You series intentionally with a deep breath and a gentle word of encouragement. In this episode, even though we are talking about trauma, critical inner voices, and the arduous process of grief, Jen and her guest unwind these topics in the most gentle and loving way. Kobe Campbell is an award-winning therapist who specializes in helping people process grief and trauma in a way that unearths true empowerment. Hidden beneath the clamor of everyday life, the voices of our inner critic lie in wait to echo our grief. These voices, though silent to others, can roar deafeningly within us — shaping our perceptions, beliefs, and actions. Kobe’s suggestions of journal “prompts” help guide our own trauma excavation process, and her gentle but challenging questions further that sometimes painful work, while steering us toward self compassion. Jen and Kobe touch on: The understanding that grief can take a lot of time to process; which can ultimately lead to wisdom and true empowerment A working definition of trauma and that trauma is highly personal and contextual How we can feel brave enough to examine the inner critical voice and discern where it’s coming from Acknowledging the cultural pressure to live at an unsustainable pace that doesn’t allow space or time to heal If you ever needed permission to grieve or drop the unrelenting pace of your life, then this is the invitation. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I love to tell people that trauma is not what happened to you. It's about how it affected you. And those effects can live in our present, even if the moment is in the past. I help people parse through that in creative ways with poems, quick words, and thoughts from my kitchen right after I'm done with the session.” - Kobe Campbell “I think that many of us have not been given the space to grieve long enough to know what genuine and internal empowerment feels like, and we keep trying to give ourselves that empowerment from the outside. We keep trying to grasp motivation from somewhere.” - Kobe Campbell "Trauma can be acute, meaning it can be a moment, or trauma can be chronic, meaning it could be several moments over time. And I like to give the example that trauma can be a boulder or it could be pebbles. But the reality is–it doesn't matter. There is no big 'T' trauma and little 't' trauma because, at the end of the day, all those pebbles amass to the size of a boulder anyway. It's just being accumulated over time." - Kobe Campbell "The person who holds the wound holds the wisdom. If we lock away that version of us that is deeply wounded and wants to cry for three months, then we're also locking away the wisdom of those situations that we need for our present." - Kobe Campbell "My humanity is good. God created it good. And if I believed that I was good for just existing as I am, how would I treat myself?" - Kobe Campbell Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Why Am I Like This? How to Break Cycles, Heal From Trauma, and Restore Your Faith by Kobe Campbell Journal Prompt on Kobe’s Instagram Brain Neuro Coupling I Feel Like Woman by Shania Twain on Spotify Minaa B. Website (Therapist and Colleague of Kobe’s) I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou Michell C. Clark Instagram Guest’s Links: Kobe’s Website Kobe’s Facebook Kobe’s Twitter Kobe’s Instagram Kobe’s TikTok Kobe’s YouTube Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got someone on the show this week who makes it her business to show us exactly how wonderful we as women are–just as we are! She is the queen of keeping it real, a hilariously honest actress, standup comedian, and the Instagram star who has become our go-to for a belly laugh when the world's expectations just seem a tad too polished–it’s Celeste Barber! If you haven’t seen Celeste on her Instagram account, get on over there and join the nearly 10 million people who are clamoring for her content each week (and if you have any doubt, she won the “Funniest Lady on Instagram Award” back in 2017). She’s also a successful standup comedian who sold out three seasons of her “Challenge Accepted” Tour in the US, and has a Netflix Special (“Fine, Thanks”) and a dramatic comedy series that we just love called “Wellmania.” Jen and Celeste get into it about: The riotous juggle Celeste manages by shining a light on the quirks of the beauty industry, all while paving her own extraordinary path. Celeste opens up about the nuanced battles of being valued for her sharp mind and quicker wit in a scene often unforgiving to women. Celeste and Jen share about the beautiful chaos of balancing a career with being a superhero mom (or at least trying to be). This episode is more than just laughs (though, swear, you'll have plenty); it's a pat on the back for every one of us out here, doing the thing, being utterly magnificent in our complexity. Here’s to celebrating the splendid and wonderful you! * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I would like to live one day without anxiety. I would also like to be a Janet Jackson backup dancer. That's all I ask for.” - Celeste Barber “I take my hat off to women in general, just always and forever. "The mothers who work in the day and then go home and be excellent mothers at night, and they go back to work in the day and they come home and they're excellent mothers. How do they do that?” - Celeste Barber “With women, [being] funny or smart or boundary-pushing is fine as an idea, but [we're asked] 'can you be safe and pretty because that's just easier for us.' And so shifting that lens, the thing is, we're multifaceted. There are so many different types of things to celebrate within women." - Celeste Barber Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Celeste Barber: Challenge Accepted (Celeste’s 2019 Comedy Special) Celeste Barber: Fine, Thanks (Celeste’s 2023 Comedy Special) All Saints (Medical Drama that got Celeste her start) Wellmania (2023 Netflix Series Starring Celeste) Celeste Barber: Backup Dancer Tour Celeste Barber and Tom Ford Collab Celeste will be in Dallas June 10th at the Majestic Theatre, in Austin June 13th at the Paramount Theatre, and in Houston June 14th at 713 Music Hall Guest’s Links: Celeste’s Website Celeste’s Instagram Celeste’s Facebook Celeste’s Twitter Celeste’s YouTube Channel Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Visit Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here’s a little bonus for all our listeners this week–a preview from one of our fellow Audcacy Network podcasts, We Can Do Hard Things! Life is freaking hard. We are all doing hard things every single day – things like loving and losing; caring for children and parents; forging and ending friendships; battling addiction, illness, and loneliness; struggling in our jobs, our marriages, and our divorces; setting boundaries; and fighting for equality, purpose, freedom, joy, and peace. On We Can Do Hard Things, Glennon Doyle, author of UNTAMED; her wife Abby Wambach; and her sister Amanda Doyle do the only thing they’ve found that has ever made life easier: Drop the fake and talk honestly about the hard things including sex, gender, parenting, blended families, bodies, anxiety, addiction, justice, boundaries, fun, quitting, overwhelm . . . all of it. We laugh and cry and help each other carry the hard so we can all live a little bit lighter and braver, free-er, less alone. Enjoy this special excerpt from We Can Do Hard Things! * * * Connect with Our Friends! We Can Do Hard Things Podcast Nadia Bolz-Weber Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s the start of a new series, For The Love of Wonderful You! Spring is arriving and as the winter slumber fades away, many of us are likely plunging into a frantic pace of commitments and To Do lists. But we want to take a minute (or approximately 45-mins to an hour) to create a moment where we can punch the brakes a little. Let’s tell that inner taskmaster to relax; and instead, reflect on finding value in who we are in this moment, and how worthy we are just as we are. Jen’s amazing conversation partner today is Amanda Doyle. Amanda is many amazing things but you may know her first and foremost as “Sister” on the We Can Do Hard Things Podcast with Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. She’s also part of the leadership team at Together Rising, the amazing non-profit that has raised over $50 million dollars and given it away to people all over the world who need it most. Amanda has been a longtime social justice advocate and she uses that knowledge to break down deep truths and complex social issues in all her conversations. Today, she reminds us that spending the energy to stay vulnerable in our relationships will always pay out. In this episode Jen and Amanda talk about: The struggle to be vulnerable and truly open up versus managing perceptions and staying in control in relationships How Amanda chose sobriety and the surprising clarity that emerged in her marriage, especially during the pandemic Jen’s journey to understanding herself and her avoidant tendencies in the aftermath of her divorce The profound impact of the "love letter" exercise guided by Liz Gilbert, where “Love's voice” urged Amanda to stop keeping score in life * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “A relationship has to have some equilibrium. The farther you go this way, the more the other person has to go the other way. What I have learned is that no one wants to be in those places.” - Amanda Doyle "What I have recently realized is that many people who either view themselves or are viewed in their relationships as control freaks; actually what they want the most is to not be in control of everything. They feel like they have to be in control of everything, because that is the way that they show their love is by taking care of things. But what they want more than anything else is for someone to step up and be like, 'I got this, I got you. You don't have to be in control of this.'" - Amanda Doyle “You are so fixated on the score of this life, but there is no score except the one in your head. You are exhausting yourself to death, trying to keep a score and figure out where you've won, and figure out where other people have disappointed you and slighted you and not met your expectations. But the score is fiction. We're not being scored." - Amanda Doyle “We think when we're giving up alcohol, we're giving up fun. And that's with good reason. It's like fully marketed--growing up, it's part of the narrative; anything that is fun also includes alcohol. But then I had the enormous blessing of being so close to Abby and Glennon's life and seeing that they were the most fun people with the most delightful, satisfying lives of anyone else I know. And none of that included alcohol." - Amanda Doyle Resources Mentioned in This Episode: We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle For the Love Podcast Episode ft. Glennon Doyle For the Love Podcast Episode ft. Abby Wambach For the Love Podcast Enneagram Threes Episode ft. Lisa Whelchel Untamed by Glennon Doyle We Can Do Hard Thing Episode ft. Liz Gilbert Letters From Love with Liz Gilbert (Substack) For the Love Podcast Episode ft. Sarah Bessey Guest’s Links: Together Rising Website Amanda’s Twitter Together Rising Facebook Together Rising Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For this month’s book club pick, we are headed into 1970’s Montgomery, Alabama. Based on a true story, Take My Hand by Dolen Perkins-Valdez is an unflinching exploration of accountability and redemption through an era that was plagued with bias and coercion. The central character, Civil Townsend, is a complicated heroine fresh out of nursing school with a deep desire to make a difference in her Black community at the Montgomery Family Planning Clinic. During her first week on the job, Civil encounters two young girls who have their agency usurped by the current government authority which mandates that because they Black, poor, and disabled, the girls’ ability to have children should be curbed. Years later, Civil Townsend must reconcile her role and complicity in a story that must not be forgotten.What unfolds is a shocking and heartbreaking expose of how girls and women have had their agency taken away in ways that echo for generations. Inspired by true events, Dolen recounts her research process and how she wanted to write “bruised characters” that evoke outrage and empathy. Jen and Dolen dive into Dolen’s history as a writer, the context of what was happening in 1973 when the case that this story is based broke into the public sphere, and all the themes of this book that make it impossible to put down. This is a story that must not be forgotten and Dolen writes it so you won’t ever forget. * * * Guest’s Links: Dolen’s Website Dolen’s Facebook Dolen’s Twitter Dolen’s Instagram Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Take My Hand by Dolen Perkins-Valdez Balm by Dolen Perkins-Valdez Wench by Dolen Perkins-Valdez Relp v. Weinberger Case Roe v. Wade Case Brotherless Night by V. V. Ganeshananthan Symphony of Secrets by Brendan Slocumb Happiness Falls by Angie Kim Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re wrapping up our series featuring Black Trailblazers, and we couldn’t be more thrilled to have another guest who has broken barriers and basically created their own space as part of the national conversation, becoming the first black woman to anchor a cable primetime show. You may know her from her seat as a political analyst on MSNBC, or as the host of her own show, The ReidOut. It’s the amazing Joy Reid, everyone! Joy is a Harvard grad with a degree in visual and environmental studies and a concentration in documentary film. She also worked on the Florida branch of the Obama campaign. Her political writing prowess has landed her columns and articles everywhere; The New York Times, The New Republic, The Guardian, The Daily Beast, and The New Yorker, to name a few. PLUS she has a new book coming out that she gives us a special peek into; it’s the important and moving story of slain Civil rights pioneer Medgar Evers and his wife Myrlie, also an activist. It's not every day we get to talk to someone who brings the goods about so many profound topics—civil rights, the fight for reproductive rights, immigration issues, the sacrifice for equality—and she and Jen shy away from none of them here. Joy’s passion for calling out injustice and her unwavering belief that we all hold the keys to preserving our rights and our freedoms gives us a reason to believe that we all can be trailblazers toward sparking change in our world. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I'm very conscious of the fact that I'm the person that looks like the young black girls who come up to me, and it makes me feel very proud because I can represent. You really can only be what you can see.” - Joy Reid “The goal is when you get in the door, just pop it open. Get it open and let more people in. Diversity and equity and inclusion, they’ve become bad words. But they actually just mean we’re making America more what it was meant to be.” - Joy Reid “The immigrants who people are fighting hardest against are the people who are coming from Guatemala and El Salvador. They're also coming from China and Ukraine at this point. All they want to do is work. They are probably the hardest working people in America.” - Joy Reid “We keep trying to replace cheap labor. America could change that by paying people living wages. But Americans don't want to do that. We love the cheap labor because we love the cheap chicken sandwiches.” - Joy Reid “We have to save ourselves not just by voting for president, but by choosing the Senate in a different way, by choosing a different House of Representatives, by choosing different state legislatures, different governors. You need to start choosing not based on the party you're loyal to and the jersey you put on at age 18 when you became a Republican or a Democrat. You need to choose based on who's going to let you be free.” - Joy Reid Joy’s Links: The ReidOut - Joy’s show on MSNBC Joy Reid - Instagram Joy Reid - Facebook Joy Reid - X (Twitter) Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Man Who Sold America Trump And The Unraveling of The American Story - book by Joy Reid Medgar and Myrlie: Medgar Evers and the Love Story That Wakened America - book by Joy Reid T.R.M. Howard - Black Physician Who Created a System of Affordable Health Care Legislation in Georgia Regarding a Six Week Abortion Ban Meet the Press News Show Gwen Ifill - American Journalist Medgar & Myrlie Evers - Civil Rights Pioneers Queen & Slim - Film Manning Marable - Professor African American Studies/Columbia University Emmitt Till’s Photo in Jet Magazine Sharon McMahon Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this week’s episode in our Black Trailblazer’s series, Jen may have leveraged her connections, and we couldn’t be more thrilled that she did. We’re excited to have a wonderful sit down with the amazing Jerrie Merritt (who just happens to be Jen’s boyfriend Tyler’s mother–and a Black trailblazer in every sense of the word). In addition to being Tyler’s mom, Jerrie’s currently the Senior VP of Community Development at the Bank of Nevada in Las Vegas. Her banking career spans 40 plus years, where her job now is discerning funding for community development projects in the city of Las Vegas (as she puts it; “I’m the only person at the bank who’s actually giving money away!”). She’s been the board president of the Rape Crisis Center, The Urban Financial Services Coalition, and the Chamber of Commerce in Las Vegas. She even recently got to work with the NFL when the Super Bowl took place in Las Vegas to lead the dispersion of funds they made available to 14 worthy organizations, which she chose. In 2021, Jerrie received an actual Trailblazer Award, presented by the National Coalition of 100 Black Women from the Las Vegas Chapter. Jerrie takes us back to where it all began; in a tiny town called Eutaw, Alabama, where Jerrie didn’t see much modeled to her in the way of dreaming of who she could be, but through generosity of spirit and a willingness to take a chance, she started blazing her trail. It wasn’t without its challenges, coming up during a time where women–especially black women–were often shunned in business and leadership settings. Despite this, Jerrie paved a way, and in turn is paving a way for those coming up behind her. Her infectious courage, intertwined with a humility that hits you right in the feels—will incite a fire with all of us to leave our own indelible mark on this wild, beautiful world. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Always pursue your dreams because there is nothing that you as a woman, and especially as a black woman, cannot accomplish if you work at it.” - Jerrie Merritt “I'm blessed. I can't think of one thing that I have done in my career to get me here today that I had no control over. I always worked at trying to make sure that I was giving back [to the community] and to make sure that I made a difference, no matter what it was. From being a teller to being a regional president of a bank, I always wanted to do my best.” - Jerrie Merritt “My mom was a teenager when I was born. So I was raised between my mother's mother and my father's mother. Those two women gave me a foundation that made me who I am today.” “Now that I look back, I think I was so driven. I think that I didn’t know anything better than to expect that I deserved; what I saw everyone else have. I think if I took a moment and thought about it. I probably would not be here today. I think back to my mother and my grandmothers who always talked about, 'You can do better, you can do better.' That's what I always heard so I always knew that I could do better.” - Jerrie Merritt “I went into community development from actually being a regional president. I was only [at the company] six months before I realized that this was something I enjoyed. That was because I was the only person in the bank that was giving away money.” - Jerrie Merritt “When I enjoy what I do as much as I do, and at the same time I'm giving back in areas that I probably would give back to even if I didn't get paid to do it--that's how I got here.” - Jerrie Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: National Coalition of 100 Black Women, Vegas Chapter I Always Wanted to Be Somebody by Altea Gibson NFL Grant Programs Guest’s Links: Jerrie’s Website Jerrie’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The world is on fire, and finding unexpected pathways that make sense of the world are hard won these days. And the people we look to, whether it’s through our socials, or the books we read, or even the news shows we watch, can do a lot to help ease us into whatever new madness faces us each morning. One of the people so many of us look to each day does an amazing job of just that; bringing grace, compassion and humor to her reporting each morning as part of the ‘Today’ Show. We’ve got Savannah Guthrie on the pod in this special bonus episode! Savannah’s as good and kind in person as you would think she is when watching her on the hosting couch for ‘Today.’ She and Jen discuss the unexpected path to her career in journalism–including taking a job at a station that closed two weeks after she started and her hard turn from journalism to go into law school. As she describes it, she ultimately “broke up” with the judge she was to start a clerkship with because she just couldn’t turn away from her dream of being a television journalist. Lucky for us! From the reporting of incredibly heartbreaking stories (she sadly reveals she’s covered 10 school shootings in just one year) to bringing in levity (roller skating with Martha Stewart, anyone?) Savannah gives us the nitty gritty, decidedly unglamourous side of being a journalist, and the joys that sneak in all along the way. The deeper story is all contained in the release of her first book, “What God Mostly Does,” where she also shares a bigger picture look at her faith and convictions, and where she sees God show up all along the way. *** Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The 'Today' Show is an incredible institution. So to be a part of it for even one moment, I think we all kind of feel like momentary caretakers. The place is bigger than any individual. It's not just the people you see on TV. It's all the people behind the scenes.” - Savannah Guthrie “It's taken a long time to be comfortable in my own skin because when you're a Washington correspondent, it's so hardcore. And then you come to the 'Today' Show and you do real news interviews; you're interviewing the President or the Secretary of State or a grieving victim. It's real news. It's hard news. But then at 8:30, you might be roller skating with Martha Stewart on an elephant, you know?" - Savannah Guthrie “I never want to have thick skin, even though it hurts to not have thick skin. I want to have humanity. I want [the news] to touch me. But I'm not going to cry and carry on on air because I don't want to be a distraction. I'm supposed to be a professional, so it's just trying to thread that needle, it's just the deep resource of faith that has saved me time and time again in my private life and my professional life.” - Savannah Guthrie “I'm not writing [my book] from some mountain top where I figured it all out. I'm writing it from the depths. I'm writing it as the person who actually needs to read this book over and over again. Every day I have to pull myself out of the doldrums and remind myself; to keep going. No one's perfect.” - Savannah Guthrie ​​"God means something to a lot of people, and that is so exciting and heartening and beautiful. I hope this may spark a deeper conversation with a friend. Because when we really bond over those things, it's so meaningful; it's like our soul is just thirsting for that friendship and love." - Savannah Guthrie Resources: Mostly What God Does book by Savannah Guthrie Savannah’s Interview with Michael Jackson’s Doctor Savannah Reporting at Robb Elementary School after the Uvalde School Shooting Savannah Reporting the Departure of ‘Today’s” Matt Lauer ‘Today’ Show segment with Martha Stewart Guest Links: Instagram Twitter Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Women's sports are having a major moment right now, with basketball superstars like A'ja Wilson leading the charge. Considered one of the best WNBA players to ever grace the court, A'ja is using her towering influence to encourage not only young black girls, but all women who have felt the need to change who they are to fit in. A’ja fought to be herself every step of the way in her journey of becoming a G.O.A.T. in the WNBA. In this uplifting conversation, A'ja Wilson opens up about the challenges she faced as a young black woman trying to be her authentic self. From an anecdote about confronting racism in 4th grade to the influential women who instilled self-love during her journey to the top, A'ja shares her playbook for empowerment with raw honesty. She discusses the motivation behind writing her new book "Dear Black Girls" and the importance of defining yourself instead of letting others do it for you. If you've ever felt the need to shrink yourself to fit in or been made to feel "other," A'ja's wisdom will inspire you to embrace all that makes you beautifully unique. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I think the biggest thing that is surprising to me is really how much work we put in. Other people see the end results as basic glory. They see that and they're like, 'Oh my God, they make it look flawless and just easy. But the most surprising thing is how many times we cry together, how many times we pray together, how many times we just come into the gym. It's like we don't have it, but we still find a way to dig it out.” - A’ja Wilson “I think the biggest thing I always like to say is (I even had it on my shoes); if you can see her you could be her.” - A’ja Wilson “The self-accountability that [my role models] instilled in me allows me to (instill) that into someone else. I can be that leader for my teammates and hold them accountable because I want you all to do the same for me” - A’ja Wilson “Young girls all the time are like, ‘What do I need to do to do this?’ I'm like, ‘Girl, just keep doing what you're doing. That's your path. I don't want you to think your path is going to look like mine.’ I think once you get past that, that's when that self-worth comes in. That's when you're like, ‘Okay, I'm good at where I am.’” - A’ja Wilson Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Dear Black Girls: How to Be True to You Dawn Staley The Players’ Tribune Guest’s Links: A’ja’s Website A’ja’s Facebook A’ja’s Twitter A’ja’s Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we close out our For the Love of Facing Your Fears series, we're diving headfirst into a topic that we will all face at one point in our lives (hopefully later than sooner); our very own expiration dates. It’s one of humanity’s most universal yet daunting fears, and we’ve got a compassionate and experienced guide to walk us through the kinds of things we might wonder about, and the beautiful unexpected moments that can accompany our final days. Hadley Vlahos is a hospice nurse whose life experiences and work have provided her with profound insights into the final chapter of our lives. Hadley opens up about her personal journey through struggles and grief, her entry into nursing as a calling, and her perspectives on the beauty that can be found even in our final moments. Her book, "The In-Between: Unforgettable Encounters During Life's Final Moments," encapsulates powerful stories from the bedside of the dying, some of which she shares with us, including the tranquility of the in-between and the serendipitous moments bringing peace to those passing. With over 1.4 million followers captivated by her TikTok narratives, Hadley’s perspective takes the edge off the many worries we may have about the end-of-life process. Join us for a truly poignant exchange that affirms life's beauty—and its beautiful conclusion. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Most people think [death] is very sudden. There was a recent study that over 80% of what we're shown on TV is very violent and sudden. In reality, the way I compare it is to birth; just like how our bodies know how to give birth and they know how to grow a baby, the majority of time with death, our bodies do know how to die.” - Hadley Vlahos “For someone to say, ‘You know what, I'm going to I'm going to go home and I'm going to be with my family and I would like to remain comfortable.’ I think that there's a lot of power in that, and I don't see it as giving up at all. I see it as taking your fate into your own hands.” - Hadley Vlahos “I wish more people would just talk to each other about the end. Surprisingly, even though someone's in hospice, I still see a lot of hesitancy to talk about the end. When they can do that, I find that patients feel a lot more peace around the end and what is coming.” - Hadley Vlahos “What am I doing today that I would be excited to be telling my hospice nurse about one day? And that has given me an incredible drive and passion for life that I just totally didn't expect.” - Hadley Vlahos Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The In-Between: Unforgettable encounters during life’s final moments by Hadley Vlahos Five Wishes Guest’s Links: Hadley’s Website Hadley’s Instagram Hadley’s Facebook Hadley’s Twitter Hadley’s TikTok Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Calling all book lovers, we’ve got another great entry in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club this month, and we’ve also got a good friend of Jen’s sitting in the author’s seat–none other than the amazing Kate Bowler. Kate walks us through her highly personal medical journey, as told through No Cure For Being Human and Other Truths. Kate shares the profound realization that her life depended on becoming an empowered participant in her healthcare rather than a passive recipient. As she waded through her stage 4 cancer diagnosis, the endless visits to the doctors, along with many tests and treatments, she reflected on how her willingness to be initially compliant toward the process led to a delayed choice of asserting herself toward receiving better care and choices toward her treatment. Kate and Jen also delve into the cultural fabric of American aggressive individualism, which preaches that achievements are solitary pursuits and any failure is a personal shortcoming. In a world where visible piety and the power of positive thinking are often conflated with divine approval, they dissect the harmful myths that set us up for inevitable disillusionment. With unguarded honesty, Kate sheds light on how the pressure to continuously climb the ladder of success can blind us to the presence of divine companionship in our darkest times. * * * Guest’s Links: Kate’s Website Kate’s Facebook Kate’s Twitter Kate’s Instagram Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Bonus Series: Quarantine Queens and Kings ft. Kate Bowler Everything Happens with Kate Bowler Blessed: A History of The American Prosperity Gospel by Kate Bowler No Cure for Being Human (And Other Truths I Need to Hear) Focus on the Family Jen’s Evolving Faith Sermon Run Towards the Danger by Sarah Polley Women Talking Acceptance: A Memoir by Emi Nietfeld Tell Me Everything: A Memoir by Minka Kelly Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got another empowering episode in our Facing Your Fears series, and boy, do we have a fear that hits close to home for a lot of us – confronting those tough conversations we'd rather dance around than dive into. If the thought of confrontation has you squirming in your seat, you’re in good company. But what if we flipped the script and viewed these moments of truth-telling as acts of honor, steps towards healing and improvement? Jen invites the insightful Dr. Rick Hanson, celebrated psychologist, acclaimed author, and speaker extraordinaire, to dissect our dread of difficult chats. Dr. Hanson is on a mission to transform confrontation into a finely honed skill that fosters lasting well-being and better relationships. His wisdom will not only challenge your perceptions but provide you with the practical tools to embrace these crucial conversations with confidence. Don't miss out on this transformative discussion that could redefine how you approach confrontation, making your connections healthier, and you, happier. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Research shows that relationships are made from interactions. The gradual weight of interactions, for better or worse, over time shapes the relationship, and interactions are built from little turn-taking back and forth.” - Dr. Rick Hanson “It's so important, these foundations to care for yourself deep down. What are your aims in your relationships, and can you build up your sense that you deserve people to treat you well? That's good. If you have choices and they don't treat you well, it's your right to shrink the size of the relationship.” - Dr. Rick Hanson “[When communicating with difficult people] know what you want. Then, as much as you can, try to boil it down to something you can ask for that's clear and specific if that's what you really want. Then second, ask for it. Find a way to say what you want.” - Dr. Rick Hanson “If you're going to have that conflict, get prepared; talk about it with some people. Get some advice. Write out keywords or sentences or phrases or just kind of work out a rough draft to clarify things.” - Dr. Rick Hanson“We don't have total control over the love that we receive. However, we do have control over the compassion, kindness, friendliness, respect, and love that we flow outward. So getting in touch with the heart is a neurologically, and biologically grounded way to help yourself feel less scared before you go into confrontation.” - Dr. Rick Hanson “Interactions often go sideways when they speed up. Simply, notice in your mind when you start accelerating and you start talking faster. You must deliberately slow down, sit back, and exhale.” - Dr. Rick Hanson Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Mother Nurture by Dr. Rick Hanson Nonviolent Communication by Marshall B. Rosenberg PhD and Deepak Chopra Making Great Relationships by Dr. Rick Hanson Guest’s Links: Dr. Hanson’s Website Dr. Hanson’s Facebook Dr. Hanson’s Twitter Dr. Hanson’s Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we continue our series on facing our fears, we introduce a fear that many of us may not talk about comfortably, but in reality, we are all facing; the fact that we are aging. In case this is something that moves you into a state of deep denial, or perhaps you are employing a world of efforts (including for-profit products and practices) to stave off the inevitable progression, or even if you are just taking it all in stride, we all are subject to what the world at large has to say about it and—mostly–it’s not positive. A pervasive ageist attitude infiltrates the media we consume, our own friend groups, and even what we tell ourselves consciously and subconsciously about aging. We come by it naturally, though–with deeply ingrained stereotypes and discriminatory practices that extend everywhere from the workplace to the bedroom. Our guest this week shares how she went from being an apprehensive boomer to becoming a pro-aging radical as she dismantles myths and debunks the portrayal of older people as societal burdens; with years of research under her belt, she dreams of an aging-friendly world. Ashton Applewhite is the author of “This Chair Rocks–A Manifesto Against Ageism,” and she makes it her life’s work to expose ageist behavior, and educate us all as to how we can stop giving aging a bad rap. Jen and Ashton take an eye-opening look at ageism as a form of bias as unacceptable as any other, and give us actionable steps to ignite “age pride,” keeping in mind that aging is an integral part of our life journey, not a condition to be cured or concealed. If you’re fretfully staring down the next decade of life with fear and denial, consider the possibility that being stressed about aging actually can cause the very things we fear about aging. Ashton sums it up like this; “If you learn about aging, you will be less afraid. That knowledge and information is going to confer all kinds of protection about aging as well as you possibly can.” * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Almost everything I thought I knew about what it was going to be like to be significantly older was way off base or flat out wrong, or not nuanced enough.There are plenty of legitimate reasons to worry about the years ahead, but our fears are so much out of proportion to reality. We never hear the other side of the story. I mean, how come no one actually wants to go back to their youth?" - Ashton Applewhite “When we blame everything on age, then that in itself becomes a hugely profitable industry; all the supplements, all this anti-aging, eternal life stuff--it does not work, and it's not good for you physically or psychologically.” - Ashton Applewhite “If younger women were friends with older women, they would see how coming into our own is a source of enormous power and satisfaction. If more of us were friends with younger women, we wouldn't have this envy.” - Ashton Applewhite “All prejudice operates to pit people against each other. And if we're squabbling, we're not going to challenge these larger forces.” - Ashton Applewhite “Aging is not something sad that old people do. Aging is something we embark on the day we are born and if you get the memo, you can avoid stepping on this hamster wheel of fear and denial.” - Ashton Applewhite Resources Mentioned in This Episode: This Chair Rocks by Ashton Applewhite Let’s End Ageism - Ashton’s TED Talk Old School Anti-Ageism Clearing House Yo, Is This Ageist - Ashton’s Blog Guest’s Links: Ashton’s Website Ashton’s Facebook Ashton’s Twitter Ashton’s Instagram Ashton’s Blog Ashton’s LinkedIn Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We all have things that scare us. And it’s not because we’re doing life wrong; fear, in and of itself, is a normal emotion. So then what do we do with it? That's really what this series, For the Love of Facing Your Fears, is all about. Today’s guest will be walking us through some strategies on facing our fears in a healthy way by showing us what habits mentally strong people employ in their lives. Amy Morin is a renowned psychotherapist, a bestselling author and she's devoted her whole career to the exploration of what it means to be mentally strong. Her TEDx talk, “The Secret of Becoming Mentally Strong” has been lauded as one of the most impactful TEDx videos to date. Amy’s personal journey of loss juxtaposes with Jen’s recent experience of starting over again after 26 years of marriage–and they both discuss how fear played into their lives during these periods of grief and loss. Amy gives actionable, easy to employ behaviors that can set us on the course toward conquering our fears–no matter how debilitating. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It's so easy to get caught up in that idea of ‘I don't want my life to be different because I don't want to make it any worse and if it's going to be different, it's going to be hard to adapt to.’” - Amy Morin “Our fear meters in life are often super faulty. We think if something feels scary, we shouldn't do it and then we don't. I lived a lot of my life like that. Well, that's the perfect recipe for depression, because you live a really safe life and you don't go out there and figure out how exciting things can be and how much you're capable of doing.” - Amy Morin “When our fear runs really high, our intelligence runs really low. You want to balance that and take notice of how scared you feel right now? Fear will cause you to overestimate the likelihood that everything's going to go wrong. It will cause you to underestimate your own capabilities so you’ve got to raise your logic and balance out that fear a little bit.” - Amy Morin “Taking back your power is all about just stepping back and realizing these are my choices. This is my day, my life. How do I want to spend it? Do I need to set a boundary? Do I need to at least change my language so that I'm not saying other people are forcing me to do something, as opposed to just recognizing I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway?” - Amy Morin “Mentally strong people don't feel the world owes them anything.” - Amy Morin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Secret of Becoming Mentally Strong - Amy Morin’s TEDx Talk 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don’t Do by Amy Morin (Article) 13 Things Mentally Strong People Don’t Do (Book) Guest’s Links: Amy’s Website Amy’s Facebook Amy’s Twitter Amy’s Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Isn’t it fun to be part of the in-crowd? Where you can connect with people who are of like minds and spirits, where everyone seems to be headed in the same direction? But what if you start having nagging questions as an insider that don’t seem to get resolved, and even worse, are met with disdain or fear from other members of your group? This can be a scary place for so many of us. For the purposes of our conversation today–we’re talking about when it happens in religious spaces. For years, singer/songwriter Derek Webb was very much on the “inside” of what was happening in Christendom as a top selling, award winning Christian artist, songwriter and worship leader. It took a few disruptions to his own life that sent him down the road to evaluating his faith, his beliefs and how he wanted to move forward with the new information he’d gained. Now, decidedly an “outsider” who tries to still take up space in the Christian zeitgeist to potentially model a different way of living, Derek has gone on to record solo albums and also work with artists that aren’t typical to Christian music–like drag queen Flamy Grant—with whom, incidentally, he attended the Gospel Music Dove Awards in 2023 (and who also had a number one Christian song pop up on the charts), with the intention of making people who are Christian and LGBTQ+IA feel less alone. In this episode, Jen and Derek compare their journeys as “peaceful disruptors,” what it cost them and what they gained in the process * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “So now here I am, 20 years [after going solo] and I'm spoiled into thinking that I can write songs about things no one else is writing songs about, and that's kind of my thing now.” - Derek Webb “I'd been so obsessed on thinking about, obsessed on my language about God, that I forgot to apply it to the way I behave in the world, the way I treat other people, which is ethics. And I realized, 'Oh no, how did I miss that?' As I stand before you as the ringing symbol, the clanging gong when I've got all the right words and none of the love, none of the fruit.” - Derek Webb “I had to rebuild at almost 40, I had to rebuild a whole life and reckon with the fallout, at least my part of the responsibility of some real hurt. I caused a lot of people who I love to hurt, the people I love more than anybody in the world. And it humbled me.” - Derek Webb “Flamy Grant and Semler were not the first two queer artists to have number-one albums and singles on the Christian music charts. It has happened so many times over the years, but by people who are closeted and people who live in tremendous fear in that space because they know they will be immediately rejected, excluded, marginalized, out.” - Derek Webb Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Caedmon’s Call Aaron Tate’s Website Second Baptist Church She Must and Shall Go Free - Album by Derek Webb Essential Records Third Day Jars Of Clay Plumb The Prayer of Jabez Wedding Dress by Derek Webb Grace Point Church The Jesus Hypothesis Boys Will Be Girls Music Video Grace Semler Baldridge Flamy Grant Instagram Drag Queen at Christian Music Awards Sparks Backlash (Newsweek Article) Guest’s Links: Derek’s Website - https://www.derekwebb.com/home Derek’s Facebook - http://facebook.com/derekwebb Derek’s Instagram - http://instagram.com/derekwebb Derek’s TikTok - http://tiktok.com/@derekwwebb Derek’s Twitter - http://twitter.com/derekwebb Derek’s YouTube - http://youtube.com/user/derekwebb Derek’s Patreon - http://patreon.com/derekwebb Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do you ever feel like you don’t have all the answers and information you need around your very own body? Are there beliefs or “facts” you might have learned that maybe aren’t actually centered around truth or science? Perhaps you’ve entered various seasons of your life as a female (menstruation, fertility, childbirth, hormone fluctuation, perimenopause, menopause) where you’ve felt like your concerns were dismissed or you weren’t given the tools, knowledge or treatment to help you navigate these season as well as you’d like. Whether you avidly seek knowledge about your body, or you’re bumping up against walls in what has been, historically, a lopsided research culture where male health has been more highly prioritized, we’ve got a guest today who is determined to correct that inequity with scienfitic and experiential information, research and active destigmatization. Dr. Jen Gunter is an obsetritican gynecologist and a bestselling author (The Vagina Bible, The Menopause Manifesto) who has made it her goal in life to “fix the internet” regarding information about women’s bodies and correcting the misinformation that runs rampant there; long held myths that cause fear, stress and even shame around our female phsyiology. Dr. Gunter debunks common misconceptions around our periods, our hymens (fyi, it’s not a “freshness” seal), synthetic hormones, menopause symptoms and more. Bottom line: you deserve to know about your body, and this conversation opens the door to finding true and accurate information that will help dismiss the fears you may have around all the seasons of your female health experience. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I think the average high schooler probably graduates knowing more about frog biology than human biology. No shade to animal physiology. It's super important. However, high school should also be teaching you more practical information as well as things to advance you academically.” - Dr. Jen Gunter “People deserve to know how their body works.” - Dr. Jen Gunter “If you don't have that foundation of the menstrual cycle and you don’t know how it all works, it's harder to understand what's going on with menopause” - Dr. Jen Gunter “Basically, menopause is puberty in reverse." - Dr. Jen Gunter “If you could only do one intervention for a healthy menopause, it would not be estrogen. It would be exercise. Exercise touches every domain of every single thing that's going to be on your bothersome list. Exercise improves sleep, exercise reduces dementia. Exercise reduces heart disease. The only thing that it doesn't help is hot flashes.” - Dr. Jen Gunter “Every single hormone that you get, whether it's a pharmaceutical estrogen or it's something from a compounding pharmacy, comes from the exact same plant. It’s all from the same source.” - Dr. Jen Gunter “You're more than your menstrual cycle. You're awesome whether you have estrogen or not. It has nothing to do with your awesomeness. It really doesn't.” - Dr. Jen Gunter Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Guardian Article about Dr. Jen Gunter The Vagina Bible by Dr. Jen Gunter Menopause Manifesto by Dr. Jen Gunter Jensplaining - Dr. Jen Gunter’s Amazon Prime Series 2020 NAMS Media Award from the North American Menopause Society Recipients “Why can’t we talk about periods” - Dr. Jen Gunters 2020 Ted Talk Body Stuff with Dr. Jen Gunter Blood: The Science, Medicine, and Mythology of Menstruation by Dr. Jen Gunter The Vajenda - Dr. Jen Gunter’s Substack Newsletter The Preemie Primer: A Complete Guide for Parents of Premature Babies--from Birth through the Toddler Years and Beyond by Dr. Jen Gunter Ensure Meal Replacement Guest’s Links: Dr. Gunter’s Website Dr. Gunter’s Twitter Dr. Gunter’s Facebook Dr. Gunter’s Instagram Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How often do you stop and think about how well your sense of smell is working? Or how well you’re hearing? When was the last time you really thought about your vision and how it’s impacting the way you interact with the world? We’re grateful today for a friend of the show who’s returning to remind us that when we tune into our body and senses, we can start to shape our sensory world to best fit who we are. And when we are comfortable in that world, peace is more easily attained. Gretchen Rubin has been studying happiness and human nature for over a decade. Her book The Happiness Project spent more than two years on the New York Times bestseller list, and she's been featured in numerous media outlets, including The New York Times, Oprah's SuperSoul Sunday, and Good Morning America. Her latest book, Life in Five Senses, is a thought-provoking exploration of how we experience the world around us through sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. * * * Thank you to our Sponsors! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There's so much power in the Five Senses, and it's everything from evoking memories to increasing your productivity to feel.” - Gretchen Rubin “We can go through our bodies to get to our minds.” - Gretchen Rubin “It's this mindfulness, this getting back into our body; we start to tune into these things and then we start to be able to shape our sensory world to suit ourselves.” - Gretchen Rubin “You can turn to your senses and find new creative ways to tap into your senses to help you draw closer to other people.” - Gretchen Rubin Guest’s Links: Website: https://gretchenrubin.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gretchenrubin/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GretchenRubin Twitter: https://twitter.com/gretchenrubin Gretchen on FTL Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/sg/podcast/small-steps-to-a-happier-life-gretchen-rubin/id1258388821?i=1000426816646 Life in Five Senses book: www.barnesandnoble.com/w/life-in-five-senses-gretchen-rubin/1142221169 Happiness Project book: https://gretchenrubin.com/books/the-happiness-project/ Better Than Before book: https://gretchenrubin.com/books/better-than-before/ Outer Order, Inner Calm book: https://gretchenrubin.com/books/outer-order-inner-calm/ The Four Tendencies book: https://gretchenrubin.com/books/the-four-tendencies/ Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/happier-with-gretchen-rubin/id969519520 Neglected Senses quiz: https://gretchenrubin.com/quiz/the-five-senses-quiz/ Therapy dough: https://www.healthline.com/health/diy-aromatherapy-playdough-for-stress Connect with Jen! Jen’s website: http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook: https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. Four Eyes Media: https://www.iiiimedia.com/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Wrapping up another amazing and somewhat wild year here on the For the Love Podcast. For this special episode, Jen is flying solo to share her thoughts on what 2023 meant to her, what pinnacles were met, what didn’t go so well, and the many things add to the gratefulness list. From celebrating long time friendships and new friendships, to milestones with her kids, to being in a relationship as a “girlfriend,” to going through perimenopause and becoming gluten free, Jen recounts the blessings and the challenges 2023 brought to the table. And she gives us a peek into the process of writing for her brand new book that you won’t want to miss. For those of you who are struggling to find things to be grateful about over the last year, we’re here for you too. If you’re sludging through the remainder of the year, digging out of it a spoonful of dirt at a time, we’re here to remind you to keep going. Everything you're doing, every teeny little moment holds within it grace or hope or strength or outright joy, and every single moment matters. And you, our listener, matter to us. On our gratitude lists, you are at the top–and we look forward to more good, hard, and worthwhile stories to share with you. Thank you for making this show a vibrant hub and a soft place to land for us all. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Thought-Provoking Quotes “I'm just trying to figure out what it means to do good in the world and be a good neighbor and leave something of a loving legacy.” - Jen Hatmaker “The older we get, the more I think I am realizing that our adult friendships is a love story. It is a love story as important and true and profound as any romantic story or a marriage. It's just as precious.” - Jen Hatmaker “Guys, I know this is earth shattering, this is groundbreaking information I'm about to tell you, but apparently it is good for our bodies to move in any way— exercise and strength training and core work. Apparently that's good for us. Also, it's highly linked to the reduction of perimenopausal symptoms.” - Jen Hatmaker "I just feel proud that my life crumbled to such shreds, but it didn't break me. I still was smart and I was still here, I was still alive and I still had goodness. And the fact that I could travel alone and enjoy my own company and not be self-conscious just felt like a stake in the ground, like, 'okay, all right, I'm doing okay!' And I had it in me to survive this and to even recover." - Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode Sarah Bessey’s Instagram Kristen Howerton’s Instagram Sarah Goodfellow’s Instagram Jamie Wright’s Instagram Tara Livesay’s Instagram For the Love Podcast: Season 44: Letters from MeCamp 2022 Jen Hatmaker Cruise Ruth Bader Ginsburg: In Her Own Words Come As You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life by Emily Nagoski The Jen Hatmaker Book Club For the Love Podcast Season 40: ELEPHANTS IN THE ROOM PART 5: UNDOING THE STIGMA OF MENOPAUSE WITH CHERYL BRIDGES JOHNS Tyler Merritt’s Instagram Dream Again Tour MeCourse Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 The For the Love Podcast is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Focusing on all things related to peace this holiday season, we’re pleased to present a special bonus episode from The Meditative Story Podcast, featuring our very own Jen Hatmaker. In this episode, Ryan, host of the Meditative Story Podcast, guides the listener with meditative prompts and music while Jen tells a story from her days growing up in church where she witnessed concrete power dynamics play out between men, women, husbands and wives. Jen speaks to how doubtful she is that she’ll ever be allowed to have a true voice in the community she loves so much. As we follow her years-long journey into leadership, she shares the realization she finally came to; we can all be powerful in many ways, and not just in the ways we've been taught. Grab a little zen and reflection during these busy days—with Jen and this special episode from our friends at the Meditative Story Podcast. Thank you to our sponsors! Storyworth | Save $10 on your first purchase. Visit Storyworth.com/forthelove BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There may be someone in your life who expresses themselves in ways that you feel you never could. Through clothes. Their vibe. What was it about them that excited you? What would it be to allow yourself a bit of their energy?” - Ryan from the Meditative Story Podcast “We all grow up with certain templates. Society or tradition gives us ideas about what we're capable of and how much power we are allowed to have. So we take our inner alliance and tell ourselves, well, that's just how it has to be. But when we dare to really take up space. When we learn from liberated, confident people in our lives, we find that we're capable of more than we ever knew.” - Jen Hatmaker “Esther [from the Bible] not just a heroine or a fairy tale princess in a castle. She's a real person. This stirs something inside me. Have I been seeing myself as only one dimensional? My heart is beating. There's a distant rattling in me. I feel that inner lion I've kept at bay my whole life. And I want to let that lion out. I want to lead. I want to take up space. I want to be a writer.” - Jen Hatmaker Guest’s Links: Meditative Story Podcast Website Instagram Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 For the Love is a production of Four Eyes Media, presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In our ongoing pursuit of peace at the end of the year, Jen sits down with Father James Martin, one of America's most beloved spiritual leaders and a New York Times bestselling author. Known for his thought-provoking books "The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything" and "Learning to Pray," Jen and Father Martin talk about the premises in Father Martin’s new book "Come Forth, the Promise of Jesus's Greatest Miracle," which tells the iconic story of the raising of biblical Lazarus from the dead in a way we guarantee you’ve never heard before. If you’ve been in therapy for any time at all, you might have been advised to let go of things that don’t serve you, and lo and behold, this ancient story of Jesus calling Lazarus from the tomb has wisdom and inspiration for today, and promises to leave you pondering on what you might leave behind in your own tomb for a new life. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes “That's one of the reasons I write books to just say to people; being on a path is a human thing and you can read about it if you don't want to talk about it. Other people are going through it and have been through it way before you.” - Father James Martin “The Gospels should be disorienting. God wants to shake us up a little bit. And there's a great line from the Catholic activist and writer Dorothy Day that 'God comforts the afflicted but also afflicts the comfortable,' which I love, and it should be disorienting. It should shake us up. Jesus was pretty disorienting.” - Father James Martin "If you have difficulties with one or another way of interpreting the Gospels, you have to say, look-- Jesus constantly is with the poor. It's not ambiguous. 'Blessed are the poor.' I mean, you can't get any more blunt than that, but it's hard for us because it kind of challenges our status quo." - Father James Martin “Until we can let go of things that prevent us from loving God and getting closer to God, we won't be at peace as much as we could be.” - Father James Martin Resources Mentioned in This Episode The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything by Father James Martin Learning to Pray: A Guide for Everyone by Father James Martin Transgender People Can Be Baptized Catholic Reuters Article Mary Karr The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton Jesuits Six Jesuit Martyrs in El Salvador WWJD (Wiki) Augustine of Hippo Come Forth, the Promise of Jesus's Greatest Miracle by Father James Martin Guest’s Links Instagram Twitter Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In our ongoing pursuit of peace during the holidays, we’re tackling something this week that we might forget others are facing during the holidays (or perhaps we are trying to trudge through ourselves); grief. Everyone's grief journey is unique, but during a season where “joy” is being pushed 24/7, our grief can feel like it’s 10 times its normal size as we struggle to “show up” in the ways we usually do during the holidays. Our guests this week are here to remind us of several important things, including; it’s okay to grieve during the holidays, and it's perfectly okay to take it slow, to pause, to rest. There's no "right" way to grieve. And that’s why we’re grateful to have some return visitors to the show, the hosts of the Good Mourning Podcast - Sal and Im. Sally Douglas and Imogene Carn met in 2019 after their mothers suddenly passed away just months apart. Because of their shared grief experience, they met in a grief group and decided to launch a podcast together. They know that grief is intense. It hits you physically, emotionally, spiritually. And even during the holidays, during what should be happy moments. The community they’ve created around the topic of grieving brings people together during what can be a really lonely time and reminds them, they’re not alone. There are others out there who know exactly what you're going through. And it's okay to reach out, to seek help, and to take care of your mental health. Sal and Im give us coping tools, show us how to establish boundaries when we’re grieving and also remind us; the pain does lessen over time. This is your journey, and you get to decide the pace. It's not a race. It's a process. So, take it one day at a time. You're doing just fine. * * * Thought-Provoking Quotes “The festive season is a time when there can be a lot of pressure to put on a brave face and to be happy and joyful. But if you are experiencing any type of loss, it's really hard, it can be really lonely and it can really amplify the things that you are missing. It's tough. I think just give yourself that permission to feel and know that you don't have to put on a brave face all the time.” - Sally Douglas “It's really important to honor wherever you're at and try not to judge yourself. If you feel like you want to slow down or you just want to sleep for an entire day, even if it's Christmas Day, honor that and just let yourself be wherever you are in that moment without judging yourself.” - Imogen Carn “We hear a lot from grievers in our community that the second year is harder than the first year. And that can take a lot of people by surprise because we anticipate that all the firsts are going to be harder, but it takes a long time to even process such a significant loss that's happened in your life.” - Imogen Carn “It's a tough job supporting someone you love who is in deep pain and I think often we just want to fix them and we can't. We offer up all these cliches and platitudes to try and make them feel better. If there's anything that you take away from this conversation, please try to avoid saying platitudes.” - Imogen Carn “I volunteer every Christmas morning at a lunch for people who are homeless. It's giving back, but it’s also something that's outside of you and your grief and it's a way to meet people. It's a way to connect, it's a sense of purpose that can be a really good thing to do if you are struggling. Maybe it's volunteering an hour of your time and you might be surprised at how that does help.” - Sally Douglas Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love Episode with Sal & Im Good Mourning by Sally Douglas and Imogen Carn The Golden Bachelor Guest’s Links: The Good Mourning Podcast Sal & Im’s Website Sal & Im’s Instagram Sal & Im’s Youtube Sal & Im’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you one of those people that says “I’ll rest when I’m dead?” We can relate. As busy people–partners, parents, career drivers, caretakers and a host of other hats we wear, rest seems like an elusive and sometimes impossible task–especially during the holidays. To kick off our new series, For the Love of Peace, we’re here to tell you–you need and deserve rest. And lest you think rest is just getting 8 hours of sleep at night (wouldn’t we all love that), it’s more. We need emotional, creative, physical and mental rest, just to name a few. The stats are real; when we don’t rest we have increased cortisol levels, which then add to inflammation, which then add to every type of metabolic disorder that’s out there–from high blood pressure to cancer, to stroke, diabetes and more. It’s obviously important to figure out how to fix this rest deficit–but how? There is already a shortage of time for our overloaded to-do lists, not to mention being there for family, friends, work and exercise (if we even have time to fit that in). Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith has spent her career as an internal medicine physician, looking at the ways different kinds of rest are the little levers we can pull that renew our bodies, brains and souls. And good news–some of them only take 5 minutes to fit into our lives. When we put these rest practices into our lives, we avoid burnout, health issues and depression. Before you get to the end of seeing your own value to take care of yourself, consider Dr. Saundra’s advice and begin to respect the place that rest has in your life. By allowing it to sustain you, you’ll experience other areas of life much more joyfully.You Deserve Time To Rest with Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Chime | Visit chime.com/forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime! BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Caraway | Save 10% on your next purchase on all Caraway products by visiting carawayhome.com/forthelove and use code: forthelove Thought-Provoking Quotes: “When we put all of our buckets into sleep, we're in essence canceling out all of the other things I just mentioned because you can't get creative rest with your eyes closed in the bed, and you can't get emotional rest in the bed with your eyes closed. There are certain types of rest that you cannot hope to accomplish restoring with simply sleeping.” - Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith “If you're someone who has a tendency to do excessive multitasking–you have 15 to 20 tabs open on your computer, you're jumping from one thing to the next, or you're in and out of your inbox all day long–multitasking has a tendency to train the brain not to recall things because why should it have to recall something if it can just open up another tab?” - Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith “High levels of sensory input can lead to sensory overload syndrome. A lot of us don't recognize our body's response. It's just a natural response to sensory overload. It's no different than if you have a two-year-old and you take them to a birthday party, they're good the first hour, but then like an hour and a half later they're screaming their head off or they're banging their feet on the ground– they’re experiencing sensory overload.” - Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Restorasis - https://www.restorasis.com/ Sacred Rest; Recover Your Life, Renew Your Energy, Restore Your Sanity by Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith - https://amzn.to/46BqUU2 Rest Quiz - https://www.restquiz.com/quiz/rest-quiz-test/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.drdaltonsmith.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drdaltonsmith Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DrSaundraDaltonSmith/ Twitter - https://bit.ly/47RTySa Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re bringing a close to our series on therapy, and we couldn’t be happier to have Kelly Corrigan with us to have a candid conversation with Jen around their thoughts on therapy, including when it first entered their awareness, and now, in a more enlightened age, how the next generation has more access to therapeutic help. Even as recently as 20-30 years ago, therapy was not talked about a lot in public. For Jen and Kelly, they didn’t see it modeled from their parents, it wasn’t mentioned in their church circles, and only earth shattering situations seemed to require it. But as they look back, they realized there were people in their lives who were likely touched by a host of mental health issues–like panic attacks, depression, anxiety–and they usually suffered in silence while others wondered why they were so “moody” or “different.” Now that therapy is enjoying its day in the zeitgeist, we can all benefit from the openness around mental health that is evolving daily. Kelly’s a dear friend of Jen’s and has been on our show numerous times–winning the coveted title of most appearances on our pod! Besides offering wonderful conversation and amazing insight here, Kelly is the host of her own podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, and is the author of several amazing books including Tell Me More, Glitter and Glue, and The Middle Place. She also hosts a show called “Tell Me More” for NPR, and she and Jen discuss the value of the statement “tell me more” when relating to others about our deepest thoughts and feelings. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! ABLE | Visit https://www.ableclothing.com/ and use code JEN to save at checkout FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Thought-Provoking Quotes: "In suffering there's this mistaken idea that you are lonely in your suffering--that you're alone in that people don't know. All that reassurance when we say, 'Got that, yep. I had a thing.' It makes it undeniable that no one is uniquely afflicted, and to remove that from suffering is to lighten it." - Kelly Corrigan “The fact is that I am deeply attached to my people and their happiness. It matters to me above all else, and if the only way not to feel that is to detach, then I'm not signing up. This means that when I'm feeling worried, it means I'm crazy about you.” - Kelly Corrigan Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Tell Me More Stories About the 12 Hardest Things I’m Learning to Say by Kelly Corrigan - https://www.amazon.com/Tell-Me-More-Stories-Learning/dp/0399588396/ Glitter and Glue: A Memoir by Kelly Corrigan - https://www.amazon.com/Glitter-Glue-Memoir-Kelly-Corrigan/dp/0345532856/ The Middle Place by Kelly Corrigan - https://bit.ly/49Gsxmt For the Love of Conversations - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-43/ Tell Me More with Kelly Corrigan - https://www.pbs.org/show/tell-me-more-kelly-corrigan/ Kelly Corrigan Wonders - https://www.kellycorrigan.com/podcast American Utopia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Utopia_(film) Guest’s Links: Kelly’s Website - https://www.kellycorrigan.com/ Kelly’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellycorrigan/?hl=en Kelly’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/corrigankelly?lang=en Kelly’s Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kellycorriganauthor/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re back with some more therapeutic goodness as we approach the tail end of our therapy series with another fire episode! Awareness around mental health, trauma, dysfunctional family systems and more has been coming into the national awareness on a bigger level over the last 10 years. But back in 1986, the concept of codependency was really new. And unless you were deep into studying sociology or psychology or seeing a therapist yourself back then (also something that wasn’t as widely accepted), Melody Beattie’s book, Codependent No More, gave words to the masses who never had a way to describe these types of relationships in their lives. Codependency can worm its way into our lives—the definition being; those imbalanced relationships in our lives where one person enables another person’s self-destructive behavior (like addiction, immaturity, or even irresponsibility). It’s a bit insidious for those who don’t know what it looks like, and for so many, Melody’s book was a resource to help free themselves from something they may not have even recognized in their own lives. 35 years later, it’s still shining a light on those situations. Melody comes in with a scalpel to cut away to this very precise way of behaving and relating to another that is cloaked in good intentions and self-righteousness but is actually ruining our relationships. And fun fact, we were the very first podcast Melody has ever been on! Last year, she celebrated a new edition of her book honoring 35 years of its impact. Melody and Jen walk through how to recognize what codependency is and how it might be a part of your life and your relationships—which are the first important steps toward making an enormous change for the better. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Until I understood my codependency, I didn't really feel like I had a life. I was just responding to others wherever I went.” - Melody Beattie “Codependency is being so obsessed with other people that that's all we can see and so out of touch with ourselves that we don't even see that anymore.” - Melody Beattie “Seeing ourselves is probably the bravest yet most painful thing we're ever asked to do in this lifetime. Seeing ourselves every day for the rest of our lives, instead of focusing on the other person and figuring out what they need to do to be better, to make them happier, to live better lives, all the things that we really should be doing for ourselves, but nobody ever ever told us.”- Melody Beattie “The key to codependency is the victim story. Somewhere underneath everything, there is a victim story and we're just simply writing the next page or the next chapter of it every time we interact with someone.” - Melody Beattie Melody’s Links: Website: https://melodybeattie.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/authormelodybeattie/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/writermelodybeattie/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/melodybeattie Resources Mentioned in This Episode: For the Love episode with Dr. Brene Brown: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/getting-vulnerable-with-dr-bren%C3%A9-brown/id1258388821?i=1000391341377 Earnie Larson Books: https://www.hazelden.org/store/author/626?Earnie-Larsen Sharon Stone’s biography: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-beauty-of-living-twice-sharon-stone/1137456964 Connect with Jen! Jen’s website: http://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook: https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 *original episode broadcast previously on the For the Love Apple Premium Podcast Channel To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s that time of year again, and we’re back with another *fire* gift guide for all your giving needs this season. And not only are we showcasing amazing and thoughtful gift finds, every gift we feature gives back as well! This year, we’re partnering with Ten Thousand Villages to present a beautiful array of artisan products. Ten Thousand Villages is a global maker to market movement that addresses economic injustice. We love to shop with intention, and Ten Thousand Villages gives us that window into ethically-sourced, handcrafted wares so that our dollars empower makers all around the world. Join Jen and her daughter Sydney as they walk us through their hand picked favorites from Ten Thousand Villages, and also offer an exclusive discount to you–our beloved podcast audience. Happy Holidays from Team Jen! * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Ten Thousand Villages Use this link to shop with code JENHATMAKER to save 15% throughout the whole store! - https://jenhatmaker.com/giftguide/ Connect with Jen! Jen’s website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker?sub_confirmation=1 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this latest installment of our For The Love of Therapy series, we delve into a timely discussion on mental wellness with a focus on genuine self-care. Our guest, Dr. Pooja Lakshmin, a renowned psychiatrist and advocate for women, offers fresh insights that urge listeners to break free from the superficial beauty and wellness industry's narrative that is steadily being pushed at us through all kinds of media, but in a dizzying fashion on social media, in particular. Steering the talk away from quick-fix solutions, Dr. Lakshmin illuminates the essence of true self-care, which, in her research, links to four major chambers rarely associated with this concept. From the importance of saying 'No' when overwhelmed, to understanding that self-care is more than just a beauty regimen, she reminds us that wellness comes from within. Dr. Lakshmin, an accomplished writer for the New York Times and founder of the Gemma community, also shares insights from her book, 'Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included)'. Join us for this enlightening conversation and let's start redefining what wellness truly means. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Chime | Visit chime.com/forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime! BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month! Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We have to talk about the systems, the social structures that have gotten us to this place where the expectation for a woman, a mom to feel better is this very condescending, ‘well just go to a yoga class, just pour your bubble bath and a glass of wine and there… you'll feel better.’ I find that to be condescending at best, manipulative at worst.” - Dr. Pooja Lakshmin “Real self-care is an internal process. It brings you closer to yourself. It's a verb. It's not a noun.” - Dr. Pooja Lakshmin “Guilt is just there all the time when it comes to boundaries and when it comes to compassion too; how we talk to ourselves.“ - Dr. Pooja Lakshmin “Therapy is this cozy little corner where you can be with yourself and be curious.” - Dr. Pooja Lakshmin Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included) by Dr. Pooja Lakshmin Audre Lorde Bell Hooks Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself - by Melody Beattie For the Love Podcast episode featuring Brené Brown For the Love Premium Bonus Podcast episode featuring Melodie Beatty Gemma Guest’s Links: Dr. Pooja Lakshmin’s Website Dr. Pooja Lakshmin’s Twitter Dr. Pooja Lakshmin’s Instagram Dr. Pooja Lakshmin’s Facebook Connect with Jen! Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices