Deviate

"I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Notable Links: Kim Krizan on the philosophy of Before Sunrise (YouTube video) Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Reality Bites (1994 movie) Robin Wright (American actress) Lili Taylor (American actress) The Prater (public park in Vienna) Waking Life (2001 film) Forrest Mallard editing and marketing services Kansas Never Plays Itself (video essay by Rolf Potts)

“I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's talking to Chuck Klosterman's former roommate Michael Weinreb about Chuck's book Football, rather than Chuck himself (2:00); football-themed video games, and the difference between emotional and analytical sports fandom (7:00); Pico Iyer's appearance in the movie Marty Supreme, how podcasting has changed the landscape, and how streaming video has become the standard way to watch even high school football (17:00); why going to football games in person is a "pagan" experience of games that is completely different than watching them on TV, and how there's a travel parallel in experiencing distant places in person (24:00); how important the season and the weather is to the experience of football at both the experiential and metaphorical level (32:00); what might become of football, and why it persists as the object of fandom even by people who've never played it (39:00). Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Game of Kings; Bigger Than the Game; and Season of Saturdays. He has been a contributing writer for ESPN, The New York Times, Grantland, Rolling Stone, The Athletic, and The Ringer. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture. Notable Links: Kicking & Screaming might be the best movie ever (Deviate episode) Back to Penn State (2011 This American Life episode) Chuck Klosterman (author and essayist) Fargo Rock City, by Chuck Klosterman (2001 book) EA Sports College Football (video game) Super Bowl LV (game the Chiefs lost to the Buccaneers) Super Bowl LIX (game the Chiefs lost to the Eagles) A travel writers’ Super Bowl special (Deviate episode) Pico Iyer (travel writer and novelist) Marty Supreme (2025 sports comedy-drama film) Chick Hearn (Los Angeles Lakers announcer) Wesley Morris on Deviate Bill Simmons (American sportswriter and cultural critic) Football History Deep Dive (Bill Simmons Podcast episode) 2025 Kansas 1A football championship (high school game video)

“In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview from the All the Hacks podcast, with Chris Hutchins. They discuss the concept of “Time Wealth,” how it can be actualized through travel, and how it can dovetail with your family and life goals (2:00); what kinds of travel-oriented experiences and attitudes and rituals can help you frame and identify your values and life-goals (10:30); how kids can be a window into new places as a traveler, and why slowing down and "seeing less" helps you experience more on the road (27:00); the limitations of planning your travels around a "Bucket List," and the merits of taking a travel attitude to your home environment (35:30); how to pack when traveling light, and how to use technology wisely on the road (45:30). Chris Hutchins (Instagram: @chrishutchins) is an avid optimizer and host of a top-ranked podcast, where he shares his quest to upgrade his life without having to spend a fortune. Notable Links: The Vagabond's Way, by Rolf Potts (books) Kevin Kelly (editor and futurist) Lyft (ride-hailing service) Die With Zero, by Bill Perkins (book) Carrefour (French convenience store) Zamalek (area of Cairo, Egypt) An Egyptian straight-razor shave in 21 easy steps (video) Jackfruit (food) Raclette (Swiss dish) Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris) Frank Alamo (French singer) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's writing classes) Canton (town in Mississippi) Lindsborg, Kansas ("Little Sweden") Zacatecas (state in Mexico) No Baggage Challenge (Rolf's 2010 no-luggage trip) AirTreks (round-the-world and multi-stop flight planner) Flâneur (urban wanderer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for more than a century. Blending archival film clips, historical analysis, and deeply personal narration, Kansas Never Plays Itself traces how cinematic shorthand shapes our collective imagination. The video essay invites viewers to reconsider what it means for a location to “play itself” — and what’s lost when the real landscapes and communities behind our most beloved stories remain unseen. Sneak preview of the video essay is online here. Chapters: 0:00 - Intro: Not in Kansas Any More Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wizard of Oz (1939); Showdown at Abilene (1956); Gunsmoke (1955-1975); Dances with Wolves (1990); Kansas (1995); Capote (2005); The English (2022). 2:00 - Part 1: No Place Like Home (or, Hollywood can’t tell the truth about places) Movies and TV shows mentioned: Suits (2011); Law & Order: SVU (2006); Elementary (2019); The Affair (2014); Slumber (2017); Vancouver Never Plays Itself (2015); Los Angeles Plays Itself (2003); Panic in the Streets (1950); Wichita (1955); Stark: Mirror Image (1986); Seinfeld (1992); Planes, Trains and Automobiles (1987); The Ice Harvest (2005); The Beach (2000); Mutiny on the Bounty (1962); Brigadoon (1954); Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989); Star Wars: A New Hope (1977); Game of Thrones (2012); The Game Camera (2025). 15:05 - Part 2: Why Place Matters (or, The Wizard of Oz and Superman might be a little bit racist) Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wiz (1978); The Wizard of Oz (1933); The Wizard of Oz (1925); The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (1910); Oz the Great and Powerful (2013); Wicked (2024); Smallville (2001); Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (1987); Man of Steel (2013); The Music Man (1962); Meet Me in St. Louis (1944); Gone with the Wind (1939); Swing (1938); Birthright (1939); Lying Lips (1939); Shaft (1971); The Learning Tree (1969); Oscar Micheaux documentary (2021); Adventures of Superman (1952–1958); Superman (1978). 32:25 - Part 3: Why Location Matters (or, How movies lie when depicting places Movies and TV shows mentioned: Office Space (1999); Swingers (1996); Little Shop of Horrors (1986); Avatar (2009); The Matrix (1999); The Breakfast Club (1985); Ferris Bueller’s Day Off (1986); Splendor in the Grass (1961); Picnic (1955); Stand by Me (1986); Kansas (1988); Paper Moon (1973); In Cold Blood (1967); In Cold Blood TV miniseries (1996); Capote (2005); Infamous (2006); Smoke Signals (1998); Geronimo (1962); Navajo Joe (1966); Masterson of Kansas (1954); Buffalo Dance (1894); Last of the Renegades (1964); “Keep America Beautiful” PSA (1971); In the Land of the Headhunters (1914); Among the Cannibal Isles of the South Pacific (1918); The Rider (2017); Reservation Dogs (2021-2023). 54:15 - Part 4: Why Kansas Matters (hint: it’s because all places matter)...

“I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re gone.” –Anthony Doerr In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Anthony talk about how the pace of travel changes the experience of travel, and what it’s like to travel as a writer (2:45); how to manage the local and the global, the specific and the universal, the concrete and the speculative, in one’s writing (12:30); how the idea of “home” influences one’s craft as a writer who travels (23:00); common mistakes writers make when writing about places and cultures they don’t know well, and humiliating travel (and book-tour) experiences (31:00). Anthony Doerr is a novelist and essayist, and short story writer. His 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and was made into a Netflix miniseries in 2023. Books and authors mentioned: Four Seasons in Rome, by Anthony Doerr (book) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Daniel Woodrell (novelist) Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet and essayist) Benjamin Percy (author, essayist and comic book writer) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) Bob Shacochis (novelist and literary journalist) Peter Hessler (travel writer and journalist) Tony D’Souza (novelist) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Travels in Alaska, by John Muir (book) Lolita, by Vladimir Nabokov (book) Joseph Conrad (Polish-British novelist) Wade Davis (Canadian author and anthropologist) Jared Diamond (author and historian) Gina Ochsner (novelist and short story writer) Other links: Downton Abbey (British historical drama TV series) “My Beirut Hostage Crisis,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay) “The Hunter’s Wife,” by Anthony Doerr (short story) “Querencia,” by Suzannah Lessard (New Yorker article) Querencia (Spanish mystical concept) Jardin des Plantes (botanical garden in Paris) Corsac fox (steppe fox found in Mongolia) <...

Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81. “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00). George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian. Notable Links: What to Do When a Loved One Dies (AARP death checklist) How we die in America (Deviate episode) The therapeutic uses of reading scripture (Deviate episode) On losing one’s parents to COVID-19 (Deviate episode) 1985 World Series (baseball championship) Joe Louis (20th century boxing champion) John Prine (singer-songwriter) Alzheimer’s disease (chronic neurodegenerative disease) You Are My Sunshine (folk song) Will You Miss Me When I’m Gone (folk song) Ecclesiastes (book in the Old Testament of the Bible) Epistle of James (book in the New Testament of the Bible) Crowfoot (19th century Siksika First Nation chief) Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) Epicurus (ancient Greek philosopher) Varanasi (Hindu holy city in India) Lamentations 3:22-23 (Old Testament Bible verse) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of...

“No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including: On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00) Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach) On the author as a character (6:30) Lesson #2: “Show, don’t tell” is still good narrative advice On depicting other people (14:30) Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting) On recounting dialogues (22:30) Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose) On veering from the truth (32:30) Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up On depicting places (39:30) Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place On neurotic young-manhood (48:30) Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30) Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say The journey was the point (1:06:30) Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it Books mentioned: The Geto Boys, by Rolf Potts (2016 book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (2003 book) The Anxiety of Influence, by Harold Bloom (1973 book) On the Road, by Jack Kerouac (1957 book) The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger (1951 book) Epic of Gilgamesh (12th century BCE Mesopotamian epic) Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes (17th century novel) The Travels of Sir John Mandeville (14th century travelogue) True History, by Lucian of Samosata (2nd century novella) Three Cups of Tea, by Greg Mortenson (21st century memoir) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (2008 book) Labels: A Mediterranean Journal, by Evelyn Waugh (1930 book) Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned...

“Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.” –Ed Buryn In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30). Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly (writer, editor, and publisher) Tony Wheeler (founder of Lonely Planet travel guides) Bill Dalton (founder of Moon travel guides) Charles Plymell on the Beat Generation (Deviate episode) The Drifters, by James Michener (book) Zorba the Greek, by Nikos Kazantzakis (book) Henry Miller (author) CouchSurfing ((homestay and social networking service) Richard Halliburton (traveler and author) Tarot (playing cards used for divination) Nevada City (community in northern California) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

"No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30). Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir workshop, with Rolf Potts (creative writing class) Banana Pancake Trail (backpacker route in Southeast Asia) Hedonism (philosophical concept involving pleasure) Eudaimonia (philosophical concept involving happiness) A Moveable Feast (posthumous memoir by Ernest Hemingway) Georges Perec (French novelist) Beginner's Mind (Zen Buddhist concept) Levison Wood (British explorer) Arsenal F.C. (English soccer team) Joseph Kony (Ugandan warlord) Flow (focused mental state) Mihály Csíkszentmihályi (Hungarian-American psychologist) NGO (non-governmental aid organizations) Air Vanuatu (national airline in the South Pacific) Hokitika (town in New Zealand) Pounamu (stone valued by the Māori) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)

“If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30). Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World’s Driest Desert. Notable Links: Atacama Desert (desert plateau located in Chile) Coober Pedy (town in the Australian Outback) Desert Solitaire, by Edward Abbey (book) The English Patient, by Michael Ondaatje (book) The Songlines, by Bruce Chatwin (book) Man in the Landscape, by Paul Shepard (book) Chinchorro mummies (ancient remains in the Atacama Desert) Qhapaq Ñan (Inca road system) Arica (province in Chile) Altiplano (Andean Plateau) Lands of Lost Borders, by Kate Harris (book) Pan-American Highway (road network) Cusco (city in Peru) San Pedro de Atacama (town in Chile) Elqui Valley (wine and astronomy region in Chile) Gabriela Mistral (Nobel Prize-winning poet) Pisco (fermented spirit made from grapes) Pisco sour (cocktail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Levison Wood (explorer) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Home exchange (lodging service) Trusted Housesitters (lodging service) Travel Ladies (lodging app) EatWith,com (hospitality service) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00). Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Travel can be a way to see the future, with Kevin Kelly (Deviate episode) Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn (Deviate episode) Hippie trail (Asia travel route in the 1960s and 1970s) Asia Through the Back Door, by Rick Steves (book) Iranian revolution (1979 overthrow of U.S. backed government) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (conflict that started in 1979) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Lonely Planet (guidebook publisher) Rick Steves’ Europe (TV show) Bucket shop (wholesale of air tickets) The Man Who Would be King (1975 film) ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod) Bread for the World (Christian advocacy organization) Herat (city in Afghanistan) Freak Street (neighborhood near Durbar Square in Kathmandu) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide...

“In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: Pico Iyer on what Japan can teach us about life (Deviate episode 73) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Henri Nouwen (writer and theologian) New Seeds of Contemplation, by Thomas Merton (book) The 14th Dalai Lama (spiritual leader) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) Richard Powers (novelist) Desert Fathers (early Christian hermits and ascetics) Sign of Jonas, by Thomas Merton (book) Days of Heaven (1978 film) 4′33″ by John Cage (musical composition) New Camaldoli Hermitage (hermitage in Big Sur, California) Rigveda (ancient Indian collection of hymns) The Woman Lit by Fireflies, by Jim Harrison (book) Sarmoung Brotherhood (esoteric Sufi brotherhood) Henry Miller (novelist) Esalen Institute (retreat center in Big Sur) Bittersweet, by Susan Cain (book) Leonard Cohen (songwriter) Ludwig Wittgenstein (philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Ari Shaffir on Deviate (archive of podcast episodes) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) 2011 Syrian revolution (protests and uprisings in Syria) Five Pillars of Islam (fundamental religious practices) Alawites (Arab ethnoreligious group) Ba’athism (Arab nationalist ideology) Qamishli (city on the Syria-Turkey border) Greater Kurdistan (geo-cultural region) Deir Mar Musa (Syriac Catholic monastery) Traveler ideals and hospitality in Syria (Deviate episode) Suicide door (style of automobile door) KDP (Kurdistan Democratic Party) No-fly zone (area protected from specific aircraft) Fuul (Egyptian stew of cooked fava beans) Con Air (1997 movie) Hannibal Lecter (fictional character) Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005 conflict) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Ibn Battuta (14th century Arab traveler) Benjamin of Tudela (12th century Jewish tr...

“In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30). Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website. Notable Links: Paris travel memoir writing workshop (Rolf’s writing classes) No Baggage Challenge (Rolf’s 2010 blog and video series) Justin’s elephant-poop cold remedy (2010 video) Walking every single street in NYC (Deviate episode) The Sweet Superstition of Rooting for the Royals, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life Before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Developmental editing (pre-publication writing support) Hybrid publishing (assisted self-publishing) Jew (comedy special by Ari Shaffir) Perhapsing (nonfiction narrative strategy) Illumify Media (hybrid publisher) Cliff Clavin (fictional character on Cheers) IngramSpark (self-publishing book company) Kindle Direct Publishing (e-book publishing platform) Authors, books, and agents mentioned: Bill Bryson (author) Julie Pesano (travel writer and teacher) Cole Kazdin (writer and writing coach) Who Killed the Bishop? by Francisco Goldman (book) Blood of B...

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00). Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild. Notable Links: The 10-Year Honeymoon (video) Glamping (upscale camping style) DMO (destination marketing organization) Brunei (country in SE Asia) Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia) How to Get Started Housesitting (article) Co-living (residential community living model) Michelin star (restaurant rating system) Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil) World’s Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00). Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Bali Hai Immigrant Song (YouTube mashup) Dutch presence in Bali (colonialist history) Eat, Pray, Love, by Elizabeth Gilbert (book) Canggu (coastal village in Bali) Fly-in fly-out [FIFO] (term for temporary laborers) Digital nomads (remote workers who travel) Lonely Planet (travel guidebook publisher) Infinity pool (type of swimming pool) National Geographic (geography magazine) GetYourGuide (tour company) Gates of Heaven (photogenic temple in Bali) Balinese sacred textiles (sometimes wrapped on trees) Kastom (Melanesian traditional culture) Kava (sedative drink in Melanesia) Listicle (article structured as a list) Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture, by Kyle Chayka (book) Externality (indirect economic cost) This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals. AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can c...

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: How to study abroad, even if you aren’t a student (Deviate episode 221) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes) The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book) Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual) Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers) Picturesque (aesthetic ideal) The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book) The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book) George Fox Talks (podcast) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Traveling, for me, is all about destroying stereotypes and narratives about people and places.” – Matt Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt discuss Matt’s mission to walk every street in New York City (3:00); walking across the entire United States and breaking stereotypes (12:00); bucket lists as a catalyst for action (28:00); and Matt’s experiences walking in unfamiliar places and finding comfort in being a stranger (50:00). Matt Green is the wanderer who was profiled within the documentary The World Before your Feet, directed by filmmaker Jeremy Workman and produced by Jesse Eisenberg. Matt has walked across the entire United States and is currently in the process of walking every street in New York City. For more about Matt and his current project, check out https://imjustwalkin.com/. Notable Links: East of Eden, by John Steinbeck (book) East of Eden excerpt The Journey Home, by Edward Abbey (book) Cannery Row, by John Steinbeck (book) Cannery Row excerpt Gary House (traveler) The World Before Your Feet at Kanopy This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals. AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.” –Jane Metcalfe In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00). Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease. Notable Links: Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode) Hotwired (first commercial online magazine) HotBot (early web search engine) Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur) Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel) Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel) Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction) Electric Word (technology magazine) Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies) Ethernet (computer networking technology) proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution) Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book) The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization) David Eagleman (neuroscientist) Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans) Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system) Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells) Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat) One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health) Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans) Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods) CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organism...

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.” –Daniel Troia In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00). Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection. Notable Links: The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book) The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem) Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir) The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie) Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food) Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain) Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA) Camera glasses (wearable camera) GoPro (action camera) East St. Louis (city in Illinois) Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film) Paterson (city in New Jersey) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.” –Julie Frieder In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00). Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater) Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist) “Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article) WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms) Unschooling (experiential learning method) HSLDA (homeschooling resource website) Worldschoolers (Facebook group) Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.” –Rolf Potts In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25). The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify. Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music. , Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned: “Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach) Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon) Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band) “Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song) Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA) Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band) Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana) Jackyl (American hair-metal band) “Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s) Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band) “Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash) Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian) Bikini Kill (pioneering “

“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by

“We 'massage' the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.” –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn't conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the "micro" and the "macro" elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don't drive the narrative forward, and what it's like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf's travel memoir classes) Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist) "Chasing the Black Pearl," by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article) Gustav Mahler (classical composer) Don George (travel writer and editor) The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book) "A Slice of Paradise," by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article) "A Slice of Ireland," by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article) "Steeped in Darjeeling," by Andrew McCarthy (India article) Osprey (species of bird) Finisterre (peninsula in Spain) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book) Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy) Nut graph (journalism term) Joan Didion (American writer) Marco Polo Didn't Go There, by Rolf Potts (book)

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); "rights of access," and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the "big here" versus the "small here" (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace "stillness" during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: Microadventure (local travel initiative) Industrial farming (agriculture practice) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Rewilding (conservation biology) Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone) Seek (nature identification app) Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app) On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book) Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist) Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book) Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet) Right of way (public right to hike on private land) A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book) Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book) An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book) Dustsceawung (Old English term for "contemplating dust") Black Death (14th century pandemic) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people’s perception of them, and how the Chiefs’ Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of “fair weather” fandom (1:10:30). Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA. NFL games and players: Super Bowl LIV (2020 KC Chiefs versus SF 49ers NFL title game) Rolf Benirschke (San Diego Chargers placekicker in the 1980s) The Catch (touchdown reception in the 1981 NFC Championship Game) Christian “Nigerian Nightmare” Okoye (Chiefs fullback in the 1980s) Mike Mercer (NFL punter in the 1960s) Marshall Goldberg (Jewish Chicago Cardinals running back in the 1940s) 1934 NFL Championship Game, aka the “Sneakers Game” (title game) 1940 NFL Championship Game, (73-0 Bears-Giants title game) Steve Grogan (New England Patriots quarterback in the 1980s) Ed “Too Tall” Jones (Cowboys defensive end in the 1980s) Super Bowl IV (1970 Chiefs versus Vikings NFL title game) NFL Films: Super Bowl IV Highlights (sports documentary) Hank Stram (Chiefs coach from 1960-1974) Len Dawson (Chiefs quarterback in the 1960s and 1970s) Todd Blackledge (Chiefs 1983 draft-pick quarterback) Joe Montana (quarterback who won four Super Bowls with the 49ers)

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?” –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00); the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (audiobook) The Game Camera (short film cowritten by Rolf and Kristen Bush) Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode) Arnold Schwarzenegger on The Tim Ferriss Show LeBron James on The Tim Ferriss Show Cheryl Strayed on The Tim Ferriss Show Jerry Seinfeld on The Tim Ferriss Show Tortuga (bags design for long-term travel) Unbound Merino (travel clothing company) AirTreks (round-the-world flight planner) BootsnAll (online travel community) Interview Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Man bites dog (aphorism about journalism) “War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography” (quote) Beginner’s mind (attitude of openness) Adaptation (2002 film) Anne Lamott (American author) Kurt Vonnegut (American author) The Hero’s Adventure with Joseph Campbell (podcast remix) Flâneur (urban wanderer) Situationists (1960s social and artistic movement) Psychogeography (exploration strategy) Dave Chappe...

“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England) Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia) Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya) Locals often perform a distilled version of their culture (Kenya dispatch) Père Lachaise Cemetery (largest cemetery in Paris) Frédéric Chopin (19th century Polish composer and pianist) The Catacombs (underground ossuaries in Paris) Mount Kenya (second-highest peak in Africa) What we hope to see in places can be at odds with reality (Mentawai dispatch) Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) Isiah Pacheco (Kansas City Chiefs running back from Rutgers) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and writer) Richard Rohr (American Franciscan priest and writer) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (travel book) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club based out of Nairobi) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.” –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Misery memoir (literary genre focusing on trauma) Aix-en-Provence (city in France) Alsace (region of eastern France) Trenton Times (newspaper in New Jersey) Watergate (political scandal) David Maraniss (American journalist and author) Pope John Paul II (Poland-born Catholic pope) Solidarity (Polish anti-authoritarian movement) Martial law in Poland (early 1980s reaction to Solidarity) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and author) Tim Cahill (American travel and adventure writer) Dave Barry (American humorist and author) Holiday Magazine (postwar travel magazine) Granta (British literary magazine) Holidays in Hell, by P.J. O’Rourke (book) Colin Thubron (British travel writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn’t air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.” –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf’s Paris travel memoir workshops (annual classes) Salt and Fire (2016 Werner Herzog movie) Star Wars: Andor (TV series) Harper’s Magazine (literary publication) Aral Sea (endorheic lake in central Asia) Steven Soderbergh (American film director) Ryszard Kapuściński (Polish journalist and author) A Sense of Direction, by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (travel memoir) “War Zones for Idiots”, by Tom Bissell (essay) Lucasfilm (American film and TV company) Tony Gilroy (American screenwriter) Michael Clayton (2007 legal thriller movie) Greg Sestero (American actor and model) Tommy Wiseau (Polish-American filmmaker) The Room (film regarded as the worst movie ever made) Creative Types, by Tom Bissell (short story collection) The Father of All Things:, by Tom Bissell (memoir) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Stoicism (school of Hellenistic philosophy) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Russian writer and dissident) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your question...

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you’re living in ‘organic time’ and you’re not used to it.” –Rolf Potts In this “vagabonding audio companion” episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar’s Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf’s experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf’s early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00). The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music and cinematic effects. Notable Links: Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Uinta Mountains (mountain range in Utah) Mardi Gras (annual celebration in New Orleans) Sumatra (island in Indonesia) “Travel in Sumatra is cheap and amazing” (dispatch) “Seeking crowds is better than crowd-sourcing” (dispatch) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) “Boredom is one of the greatest gifts of travel” (dispatch) Hornbill (tropical bird) Bessie Stringfield (20 century American motorcycle traveler) Bagan (UNESCO World Heritage Site in Myanmar) Mekong (river in Southeast Asia) “One Month on the Mekong,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Henry David Thoreau (American essayist and philosopher) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.” –Monisha Rajesh In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00). Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters. Notable Links: Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for foreign nationals) Saint Basil’s Cathedral (church in Moscow’s Red Square) Eurail Pass (rail-pass covering 33 European countries) Trans–Mongolian Railway (long-haul train route) Circum-Baikal Railway (railway in Russia’s Irkutsk region) War and Peace (novel by Leo Tolstoy) Game of Thrones (fantasy TV series) Korean State Railway (train system in North Korea) Southwest Chief (American Amtrak route) German Baptist Brethren (Anabaptist group) Qinghai–Tibet railway (Asian train route) Skeena (Canadian passenger train service) Mandovi Express (train route in India) Flight shaming (environmental social movement) Sunset Limited (American Amtrak route) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you’re not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers’ tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists’ expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond’s Way, and the concept of “walking until your day becomes interesting” (30:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s Vagabond’s Way online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) YouCam Perfect (AI person-remover app) Kenny G (American smooth jazz saxophonist) Applebee’s (American restaurant chain) Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia) Brent Nelson sandwich (bar food in Lindsborg, Kansas) Turkish Knockout, by Rolf Potts (travel essay) Camille Dungy (poet and writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30). Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference. Notable Links: Kansas Guidebook for Explorers, by Marci Penner and Wendee Rowe (guidebook) Physiographic Regions of Kansas (map) 8 Wonders of Kansas (travel destinations) Skeleton Coast (coast area of Namibia) Sterling (town in Kansas) Microaggressions (accidental verbal slights) Big Kansas Road Trip (rural tourism event) Daniel Boone (American frontiersman) New Almelo, Kansas (community in Norton County) Nicodemus, Kansas (town founded in 1871 by formerly enslaved Americans) Damar, Kansas (town founded in 1888 by French Canadians) Exodusters (movement of African-Americans to Kansas in 19th century) Boot Hill (cemetery in Dodge City, Kansas) Fencepost limestone (stone bed in the Great Plains) Cuba, Kansas (Czech-American rural community) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.” – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00). Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s “Weekend Nightlife.” Gina Kaufmann is an essayist and radio journalist, most recently at KCUR, the NPR affiliate in Kansas City. Notable Links: Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Grand Tour (17th- to 19th-century European travel rite) British Museum (public museum in London) Elgin Marbles (ancient Greek sculptures) Boxer Rebellion (anti-colonial uprising in China) Henry Crabb Robinson (19th century English diarist) John Keats (English Romantic poet) John Milton (English poet and intellectual) On Seeing a Lock of Milton’s Hair (Keats poem) Rue Mouffetard (street in Paris) Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention) World’s Columbian Exposition (world’s fair in Chicago) Omiyage (Japanese souvenir rite) Día de los Muertos (Mexican holiday) Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris) Neil Armstrong (astronaut) Auschwitz (Nazi concentration camp in Poland) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book) Egeria (ancient Galician nun and pilgrim) Faroe Islands (North Atlantic archipelago) Culture shock (cross-cultural anxiety) Expatriate life in Korea (Deviate episode) Rick Steves (travel writer and TV host) Mary Oliver (American poet) Beginner’s Mind (spiritual attitude of openness) Whittier (city in southern California) Nottingham (city in England) Hippie trail (overland Asia route in 1960s and ’70s) Pulp Fiction (1994 Quentin Tarantino) H Mart (Korean supermarket chain) Lavinia Spalding on travel journaling (Deviate episode) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English travel writer and scholar) Commonplace book (compendium of learning) The Daily Stoic, by Ryan Holiday (book) On Trails, by Robert Moor (book) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) České Budějovice (city in the Czech Republic) Ranong (town in Thailand) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“We do not just keep and collect things. We trouble ourselves to repurpose, create, and invent things just to carry, a little easier, those stories we cannot live without.” —Kendra Greene In this episode of Deviate, Rolf speaks to the directors of two very different museums — Dawn Hammat of the Eisenhower Presidential Library, Museum & Boyhood Home in Abilene, Kansas, and Greg Long of Long’s Collectible Showplace & Gift Shop in Salina, Kansas (0:00); what people are drawn to in a given museum, and how a kind of nostalgia drives what people look for there (5:30); the ways all museums change and adapt over time, and how museums can surprise their visitors (12:00). Notable Links: Dwight Eisenhower (34th president of the United States) Mamie Eisenhower (first lady of the US from 1953-61) Barbie (fashion doll) Hot Wheels (brand of toy car) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Ozzy Osbourne (rock singer) Wonder cabinets (early versions of museums) British Museum (national museum in London) Beanie babies (line of stuffed toys) Pez (brand of candy dispenser) Paint by numbers (popular painting kits) Nelson Rockefeller (businessman and politician) Ethel Merman (20th century actress and singer) World’s Largest Belt Buckle (attraction in Kansas) Greyhound Hall of Fame (museum in Kansas) Chisholm trail (19th century cattle-driving trail) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Quietly use travel to deepen your life, and to build stronger relationships – not only with other cultures, but with your home. Figure out ways to give back.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about how travel allows you to “waste your twenties” in a good way, and how Rolf has come to define “adventure” (2:00); how to plan travels in such a way as to leave room for spontaneity, and how to meet people on the road (8:00); how to communicate in a place where you don’t speak the local language, and how to be daring in trying new foods as you travel (15:30); Rolf’s travel experiences on the Laotian Mekong, on foot in the Libyan Desert, and by van in North America (25:00); how to balance the desire to see lots of places with the desire to get to know a few places well, and what it means to find “authentic” places (32:30); why slow journeys create richer experiences than hurried ones, and how to honor gestures of hospitality (42:30); how the experience of travel changes as you get older, and why making time is more important in life than making money (48:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Bosintang (Korean dog-meat soup) Fried spider (Cambodian snack food) Beondegi (Korean silkworm street food) Doritos (American snack food) Snails as food Merengue (Dominican music and dance) Asturian gaita (Spanish bagpipe) One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay) Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Elderhostel (educational travel for older adults) “The Loss of the Creature,” by Walker Percy (essay) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Wall Street (1987 movie) Gap year (student sabbatical period) Wanderjahr (journeyman year for tradespeople) China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“Not every fearful decision I’ve made has been bad, but most of my bad decisions have been based in fear.” –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about the two halves of Andrew’s professional life – acting and travel writing – and his transformative first journey on the Camino de Santiago in 1994 (2:00); Andrew’s decision to return to the Camino after the pandemic with his 19-year-old son Sam, what it was like to walk for days at a time with Sam, and how being in the 1980s “Brat Pack” affected Andrew’s sense of self (11:30); how Sam’s attitude toward the walk changed over the course of the journey, and how Andrew knew he might be able to write a book about the experience (22:00); audience questions, including writing advice, what Sam thought of the book, and how travel can expand your view of the world (28:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80’s era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain. Notable Links: Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode) Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode) Pretty in Pink (1986 teen romantic comedy-drama) Lowell Thomas Awards (travel writing competition) John Hughes (American filmmaker) Molly Ringwald (American actress) Camino de Santaigo (pilgrimage route in Spain) Off the Road, by Jack Hitt (book about the Camino)) St. James the Great (Christian apostle) Oliver! (coming-of-age musical) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Brat Pack (cohort of 1980s teen actors) “Hollywood’s Brat Pack” (1985 New York article) Kansas (1988 film) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

“The truth is that our travel anticipations, and our memories, have a way of holding only the most striking parts of an experience—the parts that don’t cause burnout.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about travel journaling, and a journal Matt has designed for travelers (1:15); why travel burnout happens, and how Matt first experienced it on the road (4:30); why rest days are important to a journey, and why one shouldn’t over-plan one’s days on the road (10:00); how lingering in places allows you to develop a deeper relationship to those places, and how digital nomads can balance work and fun on the road (16:00); and how to create balance in your social-media habits as you travel (23:30). Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $50 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Keeping a travel journal (Deviate episode) RememberYourTravels.com (travel journal) Experiencing Norway by hammock (dispatch) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s class in France) Digital nomadism (location-independent lifestyle) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].