When the Facts Change

When the Facts Change is taking a short break over summer. We'll be back with new episodes soon, but until then here's one of our most popular episodes of 2021. From July: Over the last 30 years, a generation of voters and politicians made a decision to stop investing in infrastructure – it’s expensive, and it means you can’t cut taxes or keep rates low. Now we’re seeing the collective catastrophe of this underinvestment landing on our heads in the form of labour shortages and massive housing affordability problems. In this episode, Bernard Hickey reveals an intergenerational wealth transfer worth $1 trillion, and how it could be atoned for and reversed – if only to ensure the culprits can enjoy watching their grandchildren grow up healthy, warm and in person. Guests: Ockham Residential founder Mark Todd and Stephen Sutorius, owner of Thames Pacific. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the Facts Change is taking a short break over summer. We'll be back with new episodes soon, but until then here's one of our most popular episodes of 2021. From June: For a growing number of Wellingtonians, the dream of owning a home in the city is all but dead. And it's the same story in other parts of the country too – successive governments have sat on their hands afraid that doing anything to create more housing might drive down prices, and as a result median rents and house prices have skyrocketed out of reach. To find out more about the costs of this housing inaction and Wellington's Spatial Plan, Bernard talks to Ashok Jacob from Renters United, Alison Anitawaru Cole from Victoria University, director of the Growing Up in New Zealand study Susan Morton and Kiwibank senior economist Jeremy Couchman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The UN Climate Change Conference in Glasgow earlier this year removed all doubt about how fast we need to cut climate emissions. If we’re to keep warming below 1.5 degrees, we need to make big changes by 2030 – two or three decades to build rail lines and wait for Tiwai Point to close won’t cut it any more. So what needs to be done to rapidly engineer a just transition to zero carbon in less than a decade? Bernard Hickey talks to Our Energy CEO John Campbell about how virtual energy trading of distributed solar energy generation could help, and climate activist Paul Winton explains why we have to reconfigure our existing roads for cycling, walking and buses ASAP. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The social discount rate is one of the tools the government uses to calculate the cost benefit analysis on long-term investments. And according to a report released earlier this week, our social discount rate has been too high for more than 30 years. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the way the government makes decisions around intergenerational issues like climate change, child poverty and housing affordability, and how things like discount rates have disadvantaged future generations. To find out more, he talks to parliamentary commissioner for the environment Simon Upton, who’s calling on Treasury to lower New Zealand’s discount rate, and public sector analyst Jess Berentson-Shaw from The Workshop, who has seen how the use of high discount rates has frozen the public service in time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Like the rest of the world, Aotearoa’s ports are clogged with containers, trucks, ships and growing shipping bills. But it’s not all because of Covid worker shortages and lockdowns. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at how the many weird economic effects of Covid are playing out through the world’s logistics chains, from frantic factories to empty store shelves and even Adele’s new album. Guests: Chris Edwards, president of the Custom Brokers and Freight Forwarders Federation, and professor Tava Olsen, director of the Centre of Supply Chain Management at the University of Auckland Business School. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Steve Jurkovich has been CEO of Kiwibank for three years, during which time he has introduced a raft of changes – from embracing te ao Māori to registering as a B Corp. He tells The Spinoff's Duncan Greive what's driven this reimagining of the organisation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week new National leader Chris Luxon was asked a question that was posed to Jacinda Ardern and Judith Collins before last year’s election: Do you want house prices to fall? It’s a curly one for politicians to answer – how do they make housing more affordable while at the same time preventing the market from collapsing? In this episode Bernard Hickey attempts to figure out how it could be done, and how long it might take to happen. He talks to Sense Partners economist Kirdan Lees, who co-wrote the ground-breaking analysis of the bipartisan ‘Townhouse Nation’ accord, architect and urban design writer Jade Kake and Green MP for Auckland Central Chlöe Swarbrick. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

New Zealand’s Labour Cost Index showed a 2.4% wage increase last year. But when you set that against an inflation increase of 4.9% over the same period, in real terms the average New Zealander took a 2.5% pay cut. In a tight labour market, we should in theory all be marching into our boss’s office and asking for a raise – so why isn’t this happening? To find out, Bernard Hickey talks to CTU chief economist Craig Renney and Kiwibank economist Mary Jo Vergara. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back in March, a virtually unheard-of digital artist called Mike Winkelmann, aka Beeple, made a collage of 5,000 pieces of his digital art into an NFT and sold it via auction house Christie’s. When the hammer finally fell, bids had reached over US$69million. In just the last couple of weeks, some similarly eye-watering prices have been fetched in New Zealand’s fine art market, with Michael Parekowhai’s sculpture 'A Peak In Darien' selling at auction for a record-breaking NZ$2.05million. In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at how the rise of NFT art and the state of the world’s art markets in general have a direct connection to what’s happening in financial markets and the monetary system globally, and where it’s all headed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Recorded during Fraud Awareness Week, Simon Day speaks to Neil Hallett, the New Zealand Operations Manager for IDCARE Australia and New Zealand’s national identity and cyber support service. Kiwibank is a key partner of IDCARE, and the bank refers its customers who have been victims of cyber crime to the charity’s support services. IDCARE offers victims a trained case management officer to guide them through the practical steps for what they need to do to respond to the fraud. Neil discussed why Covid-19 has created fertile ground for cyber crime, what makes people vulnerable to scams, and what you need to do to protect yourself. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back in 2008 New Zealand's property development sector went bust, and it scarred people for over a decade. How do we move past that now that we’ve got all this KiwiSaver money which could be used to build houses much more affordably? Simplicity managing director Sam Stubbs and NZ Living director Shane Brealey join Bernard Hickey to talk about their big plans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last month the Reserve Bank of New Zealand released its 2021 Climate Change Report, the first significant report it has released on the topic since launching its Climate Change Strategy in 2018. In this episode, Bernard takes a deep dive into what climate change means for monetary policy, and the one thing that dominates not just New Zealand’s economy but our society in general – house prices. With Reserve Bank governor Adrian Orr and Victoria University economist Belinda Storey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kiwibank economist Mary Jo Vergara joins Simon Day to talk about how Covid-19 has affected the local economy over the last two years. What has the pandemic revealed about the country’s economic strengths and weaknesses, and what does the forecast for the future look like? Mary Jo also speaks to the financial position of women in Aotearoa and how they have been among the worst affected by the economic fallout from the pandemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Central banks all over the world have been looking at building their own digital currencies – and in the last couple of months, the Reserve Bank of New Zealand has issued a discussion paper about how one might work here. To find out more, Bernard talks to Ian Woolford, the head of money and cash at the RBNZ, and Janine Grainger, the CEO of NZ-based exchange Easy Crypto. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A big new bipartisan deal on housing was announced this week that could change the face of our cities and allow more medium-density housing to be built. But is there a piece of the puzzle missing? To discuss the new RMA changes and the issues they raise, Bernard is joined by Wellington City Councillor Tamatha Paul, Wellington Regional Councillor Thomas Nash, National Party housing spokesperson Nicola Willis and Kiwibank economist Jeremy Couchman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There’s no shortage of cash piled up in New Zealand’s banks and pension funds – but what we do have a shortage of is affordable housing. So how do we connect all the money in the institutional funding sector with the housing projects that would begin to solve the housing crisis? To find out more, Bernard talks to Community Finance GM Paul Gilberd, Forever Affordable Housing founder Imogen Schoots and Community Housing Aotearoa CEO Victoria Crockford. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the last 18 months Covid-19 has changed the way many of us work and put real pressures on how we organise our lives. To find out more about how the culture of work has changed, the rise of burnout and the inequities the pandemic has exposed, Bernard Hickey talks to tech leader Rowan Simpson and clinical psychologist Jacqui Maguire. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

More and more companies are committing to doing sustainable and ethical business by becoming B Corporation accredited. Bernard Hickey talks to Kiwibank CEO Steve Jurkovich about what B Corp certification means and why they’ve done it, and B Corp ambassador Tim Jones from Grow Good explains what companies have to do to become accredited. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the last 30 years, we’ve built an incredibly complex supply chain to give us stuff really cheap. But is it really? Or have the costs just been pushed onto the environment and other workers? How do we find out which products are produced cleanly and don’t impose those unseen costs? On this week’s episode, Bernard speaks to John Holt, who’s launching All Things Considered – a global directory that collates, organises and fact checks the sustainability claims of companies and organisations. He also talks to Sam Jones, founder of apparel company Little Yellow Bird, about how she’s using this information to do business in a sustainable, transparent way. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) investing is a movement that has arisen over the last decade or so, where big fund managers invest only in companies with sustainable, socially responsible policies. It turns out this is often also the most profitable approach in the long run. One of the leading players in this movement has been the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, and its CEO Matt Whineray joins Bernard Hickey in this episode to talk about how the fund operates its ESG policy. Bernard also talks to Barry Coates, founder and CEO of individual ethical investment tool Mindful Money, about how to tell if a company is really as ethical as they say they are. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In recognition of Te Wiki o Te Reo Māori and what the language means to the fabric of Aotearoa, The Spinoff’s commercial editorial director Simon Day speaks to Teahooterangi Pihama, head of Māori advisory, and Keita Te Ngoungou, Kiwibank Māori advisor. They’ve been given a mandate to steer the Kiwibank waka on it’s journey into te ao Māori, and talk about why te reo Māori is important for all New Zealanders, and how lifting the cultural competency at Kiwibank can improve outcomes for Māori staff and customers, support the growth of the Māori economy and raise the financial capabilities of Māori. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gordon Gekko’s “Greed is Good” era of shareholder-driven global capitalism is ending, but what and who will replace it? Bernard Hickey interviews renowned Chicago School economist, author and podcaster Luigi Zingales (Capitalisn't) about what went wrong with corporate capitalism and how it could be fixed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Businesses face a big task and some big decisions in the months ahead. They need to ensure as many staff as possible get vaccinated, without breaking the law or alienating their workforces. They’ll have to look at their own vaccination programmes, their own testing policies and their employment policies. Should they adopt a “no jab no job” policy? Can they? To discuss where these lines will be drawn and who should be doing that drawing – businesses or government – Bernard Hickey talks to BusinessNZ CEO Kirk Hope and Frances Hughes from Oceania Healthcare. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When New Zealand’s second national level four lockdown was announced in August, it was a situation many New Zealand business owners were already familiar with and prepared for. The Spinoff’s commercial editorial director Simon Day speaks to Quentin Quin, chief customer officer – business banking at Kiwibank, about what businesses have learned from the last 18 months and how that’s changed their response to the most recent outbreak. Before joining Kiwibank, Quentin worked in ​​a number of post conflict countries, emerging economies and unregulated unstable business environments, and he compares that experience to the economic uncertainty of Covid-19. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last year the government paid out $14 billion in wage subsidies to businesses as part of the Covid-19 response. This included a number of large companies who went on to deliver big annual profits and dividends to shareholders – and very few of those companies have repaid it. In this week’s episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the ethics of the wage subsidy scheme and asks: where is the accountability? And is the social license that was there for wage subsidies in March 2020 still there now? Guests: Professor Jilnaught Wong from the University of Auckland and Peter Vial of Chartered Accountants Australia New Zealand. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How big do we want Aotearoa to be? How fast do we want it to grow, and where? And are we still a classless society, or are we becoming a country of owners and servants? In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the need for an actual population policy alongside new migration settings. To find out more he talks to demographers Paul Spoonley and Tahu Kukutai, the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission's Geoff Cooper and geographer Francis Collins. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How is it that democracies can only make big, politically difficult changes when faced with an emergency? We did it last year with Covid-19 – so could we do it again with the climate emergency that is in our faces right now? New reports released this week all point to the fact we can’t really afford to wait any longer – we need to take some political and economic pain to reduce emissions, and do it fast. To explore the political economy issues of dealing with climate change as an emergency, Bernard talks to Stephen Mills from UMR, researcher Jess Berentson-Shaw and the 1point5 Project’s Paul Winton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does the way we treat our migrant population say about who we are as a country? With around 200,000 people living and working in New Zealand on temporary visas, pressure is mounting on the government to make sweeping policy changes to address the limbo these migrants are being left in – an already Kafkaesque situation which has only been exacerbated by Covid. To look at how we ended up in this situation and what needs to be done to tackle the problems that have arisen as a result, Bernard talks to National’s immigration spokesperson Erica Stanford, The New Zealand Initiative's Eric Crampton and Dr Oliver Hartwich, along with immigration lawyer Alistair McClymont. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bernard Hickey goes on a journey to find out how New Zealand's fascinating public transport history can inform our future, meeting musician, historian and public transport advocate Anthonie Tonnon at Whanganui’s historic Durie Hill underground elevator. Built in 1919, the elevator was once part of an extensive and heavily used public transport network in the city – how were these networks built, why did they die off and what can they tell us about the future of public transport in this country? To find out more about the current state of public transport and what happens next, Bernard talks to transport minister Michael Wood. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Spinoff business editor Michael Andrew speaks to Joanna Greaves, head of the small and medium enterprise team at Kiwibank. As an award-winning dairy farmer, accountant, agricultural ambassador and small business owner, Joanna has a wonderful insight into the value and the realities of SMEs in New Zealand. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Around the world, countries are seeing Covid-19 vaccination rates plateauing at around 50-60% – and it's hurting them badly. So how will we get our Covid-19 vaccination rates up to the 80%-90% required for herd immunity? In this episode, Bernard Hickey explains how we can nudge our way to that target using behavioural economics and behavioural finance to get there. To find out more, he speaks to Māori health advocate Rawiri McKree Jansen and vaccinologist Helen Petousis-Harris. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

New Zealand's electricity market isn't working to produce enough renewable power to get to carbon zero by 2050 – but maybe there’s a solution in solar power and batteries in everyone’s homes. In this episode, Bernard Hickey explores an idea for how the government could shake up the electricity sector and return the big taxpayer-built power schemes to public ownership. Guests: Flick Electric Co CEO Steve O’Connor and Eric Pyle, the director of public affairs and policy at solarZero. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the last 30 years, a generation of voters and politicians made a decision to stop investing in infrastructure – it’s expensive, and it means you can’t cut taxes or keep rates low. Now we’re seeing the collective catastrophe of this underinvestment landing on our heads in the form of labour shortages and massive housing affordability problems. In this episode, Bernard Hickey reveals an intergenerational wealth transfer worth $1 trillion, and how it could be atoned for and reversed – if only to ensure the culprits can enjoy watching their grandchildren grow up healthy, warm and in person. Guests: Ockham Residential founder Mark Todd and Stephen Sutorius, owner of Thames Pacific. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In last week’s episode, Bernard Hickey talked about how he had given up hope for affordable housing. This week, he talks to some people who still have hope to hear their ideas on how to solve New Zealand’s housing crisis. Kay Saville-Smith is a longtime researcher and policy advisor on housing who still believes there are ways through – in fact, she’s more hopeful now than she has been for years. And Ronji Tanielu sees the real-world impact of the housing crisis as a policy analyst and advisor for the Salvation Army, but still has plenty of ideas and hope for change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this month's bonus episode, The Spinoff’s business editor Michael Andrew is joined by Ranjit Jayanandhan, general manager of Kiwibank’s foundation tech experience hub. As the person leading Kiwibank’s digital innovation journey, Ranjit has a unique perspective into how banking and fintech will change in New Zealand and the increasing role technology plays in the customer experience. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For a growing number of Wellingtonians, the dream of owning a home in the city is all but dead. And it's the same story in other parts of the country too – successive governments have sat on their hands afraid that doing anything to create more housing might drive down prices, and as a result median rents and house prices have skyrocketed out of reach. To find out more about the costs of this housing inaction and if Wellington's Spatial Plan can change anything, Bernard talks to Ashok Jacob from Renters United, Alison Anitawaru Cole from Victoria University, director of the Growing Up in New Zealand study Susan Morton and Kiwibank senior economist Jeremy Couchman. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Climate Change Commission report released last week made it clear that we need to start building new houses that are warmer, drier and produce less carbon. Not only that, we need to retrofit all the houses we’ve already built. How do we do this, and how are we going to finance it? To find out more, Bernard talks to healthy housing expert Philippa Howden-Chapman and Kiwibank head of sustainability Julia Jackson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bernard Hickey takes a deep dive into the new Climate Commission report and finds an unrealistic and inadequate prescription to get to carbon zero. To find out more, he speaks to asset manager Paul Winton about how reconfiguring motorways for cycling, walking and buses could be quicker and more effective than building new rail networks, and associate professor Sara Walton from the University of Otago business school explains how insurers and banks are being pushed to force businesses to reduce their emissions and plan for a lower-carbon future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you ever thought about what money really is, and what it might look like in the future? With central banks now considering launching digital currencies to take on the rise of big tech and cryptocurrency, our currency systems could be in for some big changes – so who should we trust to create and run the digital currency or currencies that will define the world’s financial and economic landscapes for decades to come? To find out more, Bernard Hickey speaks with Dave Corbett, CEO of New Zealand fintech company P^werFinance, and Chris Berg, co-director and co-founder of the RMIT Blockchain Innovation Hub in Australia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’ve been hearing the phrase “social insurance” a lot since the government released the 2021 budget last week. It’s an idea designed to deal with unemployment we’re going to see a lot more of in the years to come, but it also brings up issues of inequality and fairness. Would introducing unemployment insurance just help embed a two-tier system in which the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor? To find out how it could work in practice, Bernard Hickey speaks to Kirk Hope from BusinessNZ and NZCTU president Richard Wagstaff. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week’s episode is coming to you from parliament, where Bernard Hickey has been up to his elbows in the budget just released by finance minister Grant Robertson. This year’s budget is a big one – it’s the first one after Covid, and with a parliamentary majority, a very popular prime minister at the helm, a strong economy and low public debt, it was a huge opportunity for the government to do some things… so what did they do? Bernard shares his impressions of Budget 2021, then speaks to Kate Prickett, director of the Roy McKenzie Centre for the Study of Families at Victoria University, and Hillmarè Schulze, chief economist at BERL, to see what they made of it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

New Zealand has made international headlines in recent weeks for deciding to take the word “genocide” out of a parliamentary motion criticising China for its treatment of Uyghurs in the Xinjiang province. Basically, we were afraid it would hurt our trade relationship. In this episode, Bernard Hickey wants to change our minds on how New Zealand deals with China, and explain why we should follow Australia's lead and stop worrying so much about trade and start standing up for our views on human rights. To find out more, he talks to Natasha Hamilton-Hart from the department of management and international business at the University of Auckland business school, before Sam Roggeveen from the Lowy Institute offers an Australian perspective. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Spinoff business editor Michael Andrew is joined by Kiwibank sustainability lead Julia Jackson to talk about the evolving concept of sustainability, its growing influence on businesses and how New Zealanders can better integrate it into their lives. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does a government work out the best way to spend money to maximise not just GDP but the long-term health and happiness of its population? This is something our government is trying to do, or says it’s trying to do – but when it comes to the wellbeing side of the equation, is it doing a good enough job? In this episode, Bernard Hickey talks to Girol Karacaoglu, head of the school of government at Victoria University and one of the architects of the way New Zealand analyses happiness. He then talks to Susan St John, an economist at the University of Auckland’s business school who has an interesting take on what we should be spending our money on. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine if the value of your house doubled overnight. Could that actually happen? In this week’s episode, Bernard Hickey explains how it could – and how the Reserve Bank and government are doing things in the next couple of weeks to make sure it doesn’t. To find out more about how banks, lending and the housing market all operate, Bernard talks to Carmen Vicelich, CEO of Valocity Global. She knows exactly how banks decide who to lend to, when to lend to them and how much the property under the loan is worth. He then asks Kiwibank chief economist Jarrod Kerr what type of restrictions the Reserve Bank could apply in the coming weeks, and just how landlords are reacting to the government’s big changes announced last month. Spoiler alert: they’re not rushing for the exits. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A new report on temporary migration in New Zealand suggests the current settings are letting down migrants and contributing to a low wage, low productivity and low wellbeing society. To find out more, in this episode Bernard talks to Julie Fry, the economist who wrote the report, and asks Anu Kaloti from the Migrant Workers’ Association about the scale of temporary migrant exploitation in New Zealand and what needs to change. Because right now, we’re not exactly living up to our image as a kind country. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You may think the big decisions around housing affordability and climate change are being made in the Beehive, and that these are national policies. But in this week’s episode, Bernard suggests these issues are actually manifesting in a series of house-to-house and street-by-street fights at council level. To find out more, he speaks to Tamatha Paul from the Wellington City Council and Auckland city councillor Efeso Collins about how young renters and activists wanting higher density housing and more pedestrian and cycling friendly transport routes will have to fight the battle of their lives in next year’s local elections. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the last 12 years, Kiwibank has supported the Local Hero Award, acknowledging the people making a difference to New Zealand communities. In this bonus episode of When the Facts Change, The Spinoff’s business editor Michael Andrew talks with Shannon Te Huia, the 2021 Kiwibank Local Hero of the Year. Shannon established Pūniu River Care in 2015, a marae-based initiative designed to improve water quality and biodiversity by planting trees along the banks of the Pūniu river in the Waikato. He talks about where the idea came from, how he grew it into a viable project and what the award means to him and means for the project. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we’re talking about global capitalism, and how it's in danger of destroying itself from the inside out. The concept is known as a “doom loop”: as the economy grows, those who own all the assets get more and more, those who don’t get poorer and poorer, and as a result growth slows as the machine grinds to a halt. And the key to stopping this doom loop lies in addressing inequality and productivity. To explore this idea and how it affects New Zealand, Bernard Hickey talks to the Productivity Commission's Ganesh Nana and Council of Trade Unions economist Craig Renney. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week we're looking at the rise of the work from home economy that has grown out of global lockdowns. Bernard talks to Dr Paula O’Kane of Otago University about the encouraging evidence around productivity and flexibility as well as the negative effects of disconnection, Zoom fatigue and the blurring of work and home boundaries. He also speaks with Kiwibank’s Chief People Officer Charlotte Ward about how large organisations managed sudden remote working conditions and the long term changes being made as a result. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices