The Board Game Design Lab

<p>In this episode, I break down the six things I learned from the game that took 10 years to go from idea to published product. And you can find Football U on Kickstarter HERE</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/6-takeaways-from-the-game-that-took-10-years-to-make/">6 Takeaways from the game that took 10 years to make</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Amy and Dusty Droz join me to talk about how they’ve built an extremely profitable publishing business in a relatively short amount of time. We talk about tariffs, fulfillment, audience, budgeting, customer service, and a whole lot more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-build-a-million-dollar-publishing-company-with-amy-and-dusty-droz/">How to build a million dollar publishing company with Amy and Dusty Droz</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Jamey Stegmaier and I chat about the various trends we’re seeing in the current game design landscape. We talk about solo and 2-player games, open worlds, licensed IPs, and more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/game-design-trends-for-2025-with-jamey-stegmaier/">Game Design Trends for 2025 with Jamey Stegmaier</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Andrew Lowen, from Crowdfunding Nerds, about how to make people aware your game exists. Also, be sure to check out Andrew’s crowdfunding marketing course, and if you sign up through my affiliate link, you’ll not only get a ton of resources to help you market your game but also...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/game-marketing-made-simple-with-andrew-lowen/">Game Marketing Made Simple with Andrew Lowen</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>My game design book, Find the Fun, recently came out, and in this episode, I do a brief synopsis and give you the audio version of the first three chapters. To check out Find the Fun on Amazon, go here: https://amzn.to/4hmxseU</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/my-new-book-will-help-you-find-the-fun/">My new book will help you find the FUN</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this BGDL rewind from June of 2020, Corey Konieczka breaks down his entire design process. Corey has several games ranked in the top 100 games of all time, and it was incredibly insightful to learn about how he brings a game to life. We chat about his path into the industry, his prototyping process,...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/the-design-process-of-one-of-the-worlds-best-designers-corey-konieczka/">The design process of one of the world’s best designers, Corey Konieczka</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this BGDL rewind from May of 2019, Elizabeth Hargrave dives into all the ins and outs of designing an engine-building game. We chat about her personal design process and all the interesting obstacles she encountered when designing Wingspan. We also talk about how to layer concepts on top of each other, balancing winning strategies,...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-design-an-engine-building-game-with-elizabeth-hargrave/">How to Design an Engine Building Game with Elizabeth Hargrave</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this BGDL rewind from April of 2020, Ignacy Trzewiczek, founder of Portal Games and designer of Robinson Crusoe, discusses his company’s motto: Games that tell stories. We go in-depth into Ignacy’s design process, talk about his most popular games, and get to the heart of what it looks like to create games that have players leaving...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-design-games-that-tell-stories-with-ignacy-trzewiczek/">How to Design Games that Tell Stories with Ignacy Trzewiczek</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this BGDL rewind from December of 2020, I chat with Emerson Matsuuch about all the many ways a designer can use math to create better games. We talk spreadsheets, game balance, mathematical models, and more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/using-math-to-make-your-games-better-with-emerson-matsuuchi/">Using math to make your games better with Emerson Matsuuchi</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this BGDL rewind from May of 2018, I chat with Richard Garfield about finding the right balance of luck vs skill when designing a game.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/finding-the-right-mixture-of-luck-and-skill-with-richard-garfield/">Finding the Right Mixture of Luck and Skill with Richard Garfield</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I answer a bunch of questions that were submitted by BGDL community members!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/your-game-design-questions-answered/">Your game design questions answered</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Joe Bragg, founder of the indie publishing company Meek Heroes Gaming, discusses the grassroots approach he’s taking to building his publishing company. We chat about why this approach makes sense for a lot of people, the pros and cons of not using crowdfunding, how to build a community from the ground up,...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-publish-games-with-a-grassroots-approach-joe-bragg/">How to Publish Games with a Grassroots Approach | Joe Bragg</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Jason Perez and I chat about how designers can boost their creativity by thinking outside the box, pushing past tropes, and being more intentional about their thematic choices.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-boost-creativity-and-avoid-tropes-jason-perez/">How to Boost Creativity and Avoid Tropes | Jason Perez</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, John de Campos, founder of Terrible Games, and I chat about the highs and lows of starting and running an indie publishing company in the board game industry.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/listen-to-this-before-you-start-an-indie-publishing-company-john-de-campos/">Listen to this BEFORE you start an indie publishing company | John de Campos</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I break down some game design productivity hacks that have been helping me lately, and I’m specifically talking about a concept called “habit fields.” This was a presentation I gave recently for Board Game Design Pro, so if you find it useful and want more helpful content like it, be sure to...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/board-game-design-productivity-hacks-with-gabe-barrett/">Board Game Design Productivity Hacks with Gabe Barrett</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Leo Taylor, designer of games in the Risk, Clue, and D&D universes, breaks down his “key pillars of game design” as we chat through the many questions designers should think through as they dive into a new game design. You can download a PDF of the key pillars HERE.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/do-this-before-designing-a-game-leo-taylor/">Do this BEFORE designing a game | Leo Taylor</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Joe Slack and I talk about how we’ve both been able to piece together lots of different revenue streams in the gaming industry to be able to make a full-time living from game design. And be sure to check out Joe’s latest puzzle game here: http://kck.st/3SfV1Np</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-make-money-from-your-game-design-hobby-with-joe-slack/">How to Make Money from Your Game Design Hobby with Joe Slack</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Elan Lee, the creator of Exploding Kittens, talks about his venture into creating games for small children. Elan has been designing the games alongside his four-year-old daughter, and we talk about the process of designing games both for and with small kids. We also get into the business side of things and...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/designing-games-for-and-with-young-kids-with-elan-lee/">Designing Games FOR and WITH Young Kids with Elan Lee</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Geoff Engelstein and I chat about design theory and break down Geoff’s favorite examples and how they relate to designing games. Geoff’s book about loss aversion can be found here: https://amzn.to/3rIgi7y More info about the Tabletop Network Conference can be found here: https://www.tabletopnetwork.com</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/4-amazing-and-useful-examples-of-board-game-design-theory-with-geoff-engelstein/">4 Amazing (and Useful) Examples of Board Game Design Theory with Geoff Engelstein</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Jason Greeno and I chat about the current boom in the print-n-play side of the market, and we dive into how and why more designers should create printable versions of their games. You can find a ridiculous number of PnP games on Jason’s website, PnP Arcade. And you can find his game,...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/why-you-should-create-print-n-play-games-with-jason-greeno/">Why You Should Create Print-n-Play Games with Jason Greeno</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Pam Walls and I chat about the games on our “must play” lists if you’re a game designer. And be sure to check out Pam’s awesome channel about game design here: https://www.youtube.com/@pamwallsgamedesign Here are the games we discuss: -Imhotep -Dungeons & Dragons -Catan -Chess -Magic: the Gathering -Robinson Crusoe -Kemet -Creature Comforts...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/the-games-every-designer-must-play-with-pam-walls/">The Games Every Designer MUST Play with Pam Walls</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Rob Daviau and I chat about how to playtest, receive feedback, iterate, and playtest a whole lot more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-playtest-like-a-pro-with-rob-daviau-2/">How to Playtest like a Pro with Rob Daviau</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Jay Cormier and I chat about how to teach game design concepts to others and help them become game designers. And be sure to check out Jay’s new game design activity book HERE.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-create-more-game-designers-with-jay-cormier/">How to Create More Game Designers with Jay Cormier</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Ben Downton who designs games and runs the publishing company Prometheus Game Labs. We chat about how lonely design work can be, how to balance being creative with running a business, Board Game Arena, and more! And here’s the Board Game Arena article mentioned in the show: https://prometheusgamelabs.wordpress.com/2023/08/14/how-a-game-gets-on-board-game-arena/</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-design-and-publish-games-with-ben-downton/">How to Design AND Publish games with Ben Downton</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Kyle Sussenbach and I chat about how to get started in creating a publishing business and how to go from absolutely nothing to launching a crowdfunding campaign.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/10-steps-to-go-from-nothing-to-crowdfunding-campaign-with-kyle-sussenbach/">10 Steps to Go from Nothing to Crowdfunding Campaign with Kyle Sussenbach</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I talk through pretty much every tip about game design that I can think of! And if you want to see the video version, you can check it out on YouTube HERE.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/71-ways-to-become-a-better-game-designer-with-gabe-barrett/">71 Ways to Become a Better Game Designer with Gabe Barrett</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Jason Tagmire about everything related to 18-card games. We talk about designing, publishing, manufacturing, shipping, marketing, crowdfunding, and more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/small-games-that-pack-a-big-punch-with-jason-tagmire-2/">Small Games that Pack a Big Punch with Jason Tagmire</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Jonny Pac about how to create games that fully engage players and keep them coming back for more. We talk about the difference between puzzles and games, designing for different types of players, utilizing randomness, fuzzy logic, and a whole lot more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-craft-the-perfect-player-experience-with-jonny-pac/">How to Craft the Perfect Player Experience with Jonny Pac</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with James Ernest about how to make a game that doesn’t just work mechanically but is also a lot of fun to play. We talk about how to identify when testers are having fun, the design decisions that create fun experiences, utilizing surprise, and a whole lot more. You can...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-design-fun-games-with-james-ernest/">How to Design Fun Games with James Ernest</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Amy and Dusty Droz who raised over $1 million on Kickstarter as first-time creators with a game that only costs $39. You can late back their game, Botany, here: https://botany.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-have-massive-success-on-kickstarter-with-amy-and-dusty-droz/">How to Have Massive Success on Kickstarter with Amy and Dusty Droz</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I give my best advice on how to reach out to content creators and get featured on podcasts, and I chat with my friend, Justin Kral, a professional audio engineer about how to create an audio setup that sounds great.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-get-featured-on-podcasts-and-sound-great-with-justin-kral/">How to Get Featured on Podcasts and Sound Great with Justin Kral</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, I chat with Andrew Lowen, and we break down a recent crowdfunding campaign I ran that I had to cancel. I talk about the mistakes I made and what I’m doing to fix things as I get ready to relaunch the campaign.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/my-crowdfunding-failure-a-post-mortem-with-andrew-lowen/">My Crowdfunding Failure: A Post Mortem with Andrew Lowen</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Jorge Velez, professional illustrator, discusses topics related to art and creativity. We talk about how comparison destroys creative people, how to make your own luck, the different paths to becoming a pro artist, best practices for finding and working with artists, and a whole lot more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/art-working-with-artists-and-becoming-your-best-creative-self-with-jorge-velez/">Art, Working with Artists, and Becoming Your Best Creative Self with Jorge Velez</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Zachary Strebeck, a lawyer who specializes in games, dives into the many legal issues that arise when bringing games to life and getting them on the market. We talk about clauses to look out for in contracts, the pros and cons of NDAs, what you need to know about copyrights and trademarks, and a whole...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/the-legal-side-of-creating-games-with-zachary-strebeck/">The Legal Side of Creating Games with Zachary Strebeck</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Sen-Foong Lim talks about how he balances his 50+ hour a week teaching job with working on 40+ games a year. We talk about how to design like crazy without burning out, how to get into a flow state, the myth of being self-made, how to work with co-designers, and a whole...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-balance-game-design-with-a-full-time-job-with-sen-foong-lim/">How to Balance Game Design with a Full Time Job with Sen-Foong Lim</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Peter C. Hayward, from Jellybean Games, is back, and we’re talking about how a hyper-creative person can pursue lots of different projects and actually get things done.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-pursue-lots-of-creative-paths-with-peter-c-hayward/">How to Work on Lots of Projects at Once with Peter C. Hayward</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>In this episode, Jamey Stegmaier talks about how to make money creating games. We talk about how to monetize creativity and the many roadblocks people run into. Jamey unpacks what he would do if he had to start over and build a publishing company from scratch. He opens up about his biggest financial mistake. We...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-make-money-designing-games-with-jamey-stegmaier/">How to Make Money Designing Games with Jamey Stegmaier</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Here’s a quick update about the relaunching of the podcast and the future of the Board Game Design Lab. Lots of cool things ahead!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/so-where-were-we/">So, where were we?</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Today’s show is the final episode of the BGDL podcast for the foreseeable future. Jamey Stegmaier, the show’s very first guest, joins me, and we talk through the past, present, and future of the BGDL, and I talk a lot about what’s next for me. I tell lots of stories, get a bit emotional, and talk...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/see-you-space-cowboy-with-gabe-barrett-and-jamey-stegmaier/">See You Space Cowboy with Gabe Barrett and Jamey Stegmaier</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>I’m celebrating the podcast’s 300th episode by chatting with Alan Moon, the designer of Ticket to Ride.We go through his long career in the gaming industry, discuss the genesis of Ticket to Ride, chat about playtesting and pitching, and more!</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/celebrating-300-episodes-the-design-journey-of-alan-moon/">(Celebrating 300 Episodes!) The Design Journey of Alan Moon</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Peter C. Hayward, from Jellybean Games, is back, and we’re talking through our absolute best tips and advice for game designers.We split the conversation into two parts: new designers and experienced designers. And we talk through our own successes and failures. And be sure to check out Peter’s latest game, Sunshine City, which you can...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/our-best-game-design-advice-with-peter-c-hayward/">Our Best Game Design Advice with Peter C. Hayward</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Patrick Mcneil, from McMeeple Games, discusses what it’s like to design games with his children.Patrick has been creating games with his kids for years and has gotten many of the designs to the point of being fully published games. We talk about being intentional, setting the right expectations, overcoming negative feedback, and more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/designing-games-with-your-kids-with-patrick-mcneil/">Designing Games with Your Kids with Patrick McNeil</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Ben Rosset, designer of The Search for Planet X, talks about how to design games based on real-life systems and processes.​Ben has designed games based on aging cheese, brewing beer, finding planets, manufacturing board games, and many other themes that happen in the real world, so we have quite a bit to chat about.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/designing-games-based-on-real-life-systems-with-ben-rosset/">Designing Games Based on Real-Life Systems with Ben Rosset</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Jess and Steph Nguyen, from Hot Potatoz, talk about how to design take that games. We talk about finding a good balance of fun, game length, and hurt feelings. And we get into finding the right audience, playtesting, and more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-design-take-that-games-with-steph-and-jess-nguyen/">How to Design Take That Games with Steph and Jess Nguyen</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Jesse Stacy, from Triceratops Games, discusses how to design drafting games. Jesse has been working on a drafting style game for a while, and we dive into the different types, how to keep a game moving, stacking other mechanisms, and more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/bgdl-community-spotlight-how-to-design-drafting-games-with-jesse-stacy/">[BGDL Community Spotlight] How to Design Drafting Games with Jesse Stacy</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Gino Brancazio, from Tinkerbot Games, talks about the three stages of prototyping, and we discuss what you need to know depending on which stage you’re in.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/bgdl-community-spotlight-the-3-stages-of-prototyping-with-gino-brancazio/">[BGDL Community Spotlight] The 3 Stages of Prototyping with Gino Brancazio</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Andrew Lowen and Sean Bradford, from Next Level Web, talk about how to get the most out of your crowdfunding campaign. We spend most of the time talking about different aspects of marketing and break down examples from our own campaigns of what worked and what didn’t.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-your-crowdfunding-campaign-with-andrew-lowen-and-sean-bradford/">How to Get the Most out of Your Crowdfunding Campaign with Andrew Lowen and Sean Bradford</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Rob Dougherty, founder of Wise Wizard Games, talks about how to run a successful publishing company. We talk about how Rob got started, how to actually make money, how to use Kickstarter effectively, and more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/how-to-run-a-publishing-company-with-rob-dougherty/">How to Run a Publishing Company with Rob Dougherty</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Ryan Laukat, designer of Sleeping Gods, talks about designing open world games. Sleeping Gods is a phenomenal example of how a board game can pull off the open world experience, and we do a deep dive into basically every aspect of its design. I’ve also been working on an open world game of my own...</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/designing-open-world-games-with-ryan-laukat/">Designing Open World Games with Ryan Laukat</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>

<p>Matt Bivens discusses how to teach game design. Matt has been teaching design to high school kids for years, and we get into the usefulness of game design concepts, feedback, and more.</p> <p>The post <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com/teaching-board-game-design-with-matt-bivens/">Teaching Board Game Design with Matt Bivens</a> appeared first on <a href="https://boardgamedesignlab.com">Board Game Design Lab</a>.</p>