Snafu w/ Robin Zander

.In this episode, I'm joined by Lindsey Caplan — organizational psychologist, former Hollywood screenwriter, and upcoming author — for a conversation about creativity, communication, and how people and groups are actually moved. Lindsey's path is anything but linear. She started her career on TV and film sets in Los Angeles, working on shows like Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and The Amazing Race. From there, she transitioned into learning and development at companies like DreamWorks Animation, Zendesk, and Credit Karma, eventually stepping fully into organizational design and change work at The Gathering Effect. Her new book, Moved — coming March 2027 — explores the forces that shape human behavior: what moves us, how we can move others, and why pull, not push, is the most sustainable path to influence. We talk about why the book took nine years to write, what she learned about the psychology of groups, and why "being seen and heard" is at the heart of all meaningful change. We dig into the creative process, including the messy parts: identity shifts, losing and regaining a creative voice, and what it takes to translate an idea that lives in your head into something that lands with other people. Lindsey shares how her storytelling roots shape her work today — from understanding stakes and motivation to designing experiences that create real engagement, not just compliance. We also explore the gap between knowing and doing, why so many best-practice books fail to stick inside organizations, and how leaders can communicate in ways that create ownership instead of resistance. If you're curious about influence, the craft of writing, or how to move people without pressure, this conversation is for you.

This conversation between Robin Zander and Gagan Biyani, founder of Maven and early contributor to Udemy, Lyft, and Spread, explores the intersection of growth, education, and entrepreneurship. The session begins with a brief mindfulness exercise for the audience before diving into Biyani's career and his perspective on growth. He distinguishes growth from traditional marketing by emphasizing that growth is a systematic approach that integrates product, analytics, and user behavior to drive scalable results, rather than solely focusing on branding or messaging. Biyani also addresses the ethics of growth, noting that while manipulation is unavoidable in communication, respecting users' agency and providing genuine value is key. Fear or guilt about "manipulating" others often hinders action, whereas ethical influence fosters trust and long-term engagement. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of providing optimism and clarity, rather than relying on fear-based tactics, in both marketing and education. Education remains a central theme of Biyani's work. At Udemy, he helped pioneer live, video-based courses to make learning more accessible online, though he notes systemic barriers prevented it from fully replacing traditional college education. Maven continues this mission with cohort-based programs led by industry experts, helping professionals rapidly gain practical skills. Biyani highlights the transformative potential of AI in upskilling, explaining that while AI won't replace human teachers, it significantly expands access and efficiency for learners across industries. Reflecting on his broader entrepreneurial journey, Biyani shares lessons from Lyft and Spread. Lyft demonstrated the power of timing and product-market fit, while Spread taught him that execution alone is not enough – understanding the market and being "right" about demand is essential. Across all ventures, he emphasizes pattern recognition, balancing exploration with focused execution, and learning from successes and failures alike. Ultimately, Biyani's philosophy is to tackle challenging problems that align with personal strengths, respect users' agency, and leverage insight and experimentation to create meaningful impact.

Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor. Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention. Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion. Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere). In Q&A, Robin tackled: Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts) Relationship-based enterprise selling Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling. Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all fucked up. 00:00 Start 01:06 Audience Fears About Selling Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions Robin introduces himself briefly Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion Shares experience as a community builder Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu) Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations Two-day event each September on the future of work Focus on building resilience in organizations Observations on rapid change Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace Questions about resilience in individuals Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships Ability to stay resilient through change Robin frames his expertise Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations Labels himself a reluctant salesperson Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling Key lessons from research and interviews Two buckets matter in business and life: Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu Written by hand, not AI Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality Advocates for simply asking for what you want Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others 12:25 Service as the Core Principle Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion Stories used to: Get promotions Build coalitions Propel career or organizational growth Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials" Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact Core principle: service Showing up from a place of helping others Through helping others, also helping oneself Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money" Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention Lessons learned from pumpkin patch: Authentic enthusiasm creates value Helping people do what they were already inclined to do Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously

In this episode, I'm joined by Rebecca Hinds — organizational behavior expert and founder of the Work AI Institute at Glean — for a practical conversation about why meetings deteriorate over time and how to redesign them. Rebecca argues that bad meetings aren't a people problem — they're a systems problem. Without intentional design, meetings default to ego, status signaling, conflict avoidance, and performative participation. Over time, low-value meetings become normalized instead of fixed. Drawing on her research at Stanford University and her leadership of the Work Innovation Lab at Asana, she shares frameworks from her new book, Your Best Meeting Ever, including: The four legitimate purposes of a meeting: decide, discuss, debate, or develop The CEO test for when synchronous time is truly required How to codify shared meeting standards Why leaders must explicitly give permission to leave low-value meetings We also explore leadership, motivation, and the myth that kindness and high standards are opposites. Rebecca explains why effective leaders diagnose what drives each individual — encouragement for some, direct challenge for others — and design environments that support both performance and belonging. Finally, we talk about AI and the future of work. Tools amplify existing culture: strong systems improve, broken systems break faster. Organizations that redesign how work happens — not just what tools they use — will have the advantage. If you want to run better meetings, lead with more clarity, and rethink how collaboration actually happens, this episode is for you. You can find Your Best Meeting Ever at major bookstores and learn more at rebeccahinds.com. 00:00 Start 00:27 Why Meetings Get Worse Over Time Robin references Good Omens and the character Crowley, who designs the M25 freeway to intentionally create frustration and misery. They use this metaphor to illustrate how systems can be designed in ways that amplify dysfunction, whether intentionally or accidentally. The idea is that once dysfunctional systems become normalized, people stop questioning them. They also discuss Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification, where platforms and systems gradually decline as organizational priorities override user experience. Rebecca connects this pattern directly to meetings, arguing that without intentional design, meetings default to chaos and energy drain. Over time, poorly designed meetings become accepted as inevitable rather than treated as solvable design problems. Rebecca references the Simple Sabotage Field Manual created by the Office of Strategic Services during World War II. The manual advised citizens in occupied territories on how to subtly undermine organizations from within. Many of the suggested tactics involved meetings, including encouraging long speeches, focusing on irrelevant details, and sending decisions to unnecessary committees. The irony is that these sabotage techniques closely resemble common behaviors in modern corporate meetings. Rebecca argues that if meetings were designed from scratch today, without legacy habits and inherited norms, they would likely look radically different. She explains that meetings persist in their dysfunctional form because they amplify deeply human tendencies like ego, status signaling, and conflict avoidance. Rebecca traces her interest in teamwork back to her experience as a competitive swimmer in Toronto. Although swimming appears to be an individual sport, she explains that success is heavily dependent on team structure and shared preparation. Being recruited to swim at Stanford exposed her to an elite, team-first environment that reshaped how she thought about performance. She became fascinated by how a group can become greater than the sum of its parts when the right cultural conditions are present. This experience sparked her long-term curiosity about why organizations struggle to replicate the kind of cohesion often seen in sports. At Stanford, Coach Lee Mauer emphasized that emotional wellbeing and performance were deeply connected. The team included world record holders and Olympians, and the performance standards were extremely high. Despite the intensity, the culture prioritized connection and belonging. Rituals like informal story time around the hot tub helped teammates build relationships beyond performance metrics. Rebecca internalized the lesson that elite performance and strong culture are not opposing forces. She saw firsthand that intensity and warmth can coexist, and that psychological safety can actually reinforce high standards rather than weaken them. Later in her career at Asana, Rebecca encountered the company value of rejecting false trade-offs. This reinforced a lesson she had first learned in swimming, which is that many perceived either-or tensions are not actually unavoidable. She argues that organizations often assume they must choose between performance and happiness, or between kindness and accountability. In her exp

In this episode, I'm joined by Mandy Mooney — author, corporate communicator, and performer — for a wide-ranging conversation about mentorship, career growth, and how to show up authentically in both work and life. We talk about her path from performing arts to corporate communications, and how those early experiences shaped the way she approaches relationships, leadership, and personal authenticity. That foundation carries through to her current role as VP of Internal Communications, where she focuses on building connections and fostering resilience across teams. We explore the three pillars of career success Mandy highlights in her book Corporating: Three Ways to Win at Work — relationships, reputation, and resilience — and how they guide her approach to scaling mentorship and helping others grow. Mandy shares practical strategies for balancing professional responsibilities with personal passions, and why embracing technology thoughtfully can enhance, not replace, human connection. The conversation also touches on parenting, building independence in children, and the lessons she's learned about optimism, preparation, and persistence — both in the workplace and at home. If you're interested in scaling mentorship, developing your career with intention, or navigating work with authenticity, this episode is for you. And if you want to hear more on these topics, catch Mandy speaking at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th. 00:00 Start 02:26 Teaching Self-Belief and Independence Robin notes Mandy has young kids and a diverse career (performing arts → VP of a name-brand company → writing books). Robin asks: "What are the skills that you want your children to develop, to stay resilient in the world and the world of work that they're gonna grow up in?" Emphasis on meta-skills. Mandy's response: Core skills She loves the question, didn't expect it, finds it a "thrilling ride." Observes Robin tends to "put things out there before they exist" (e.g., talking about having children before actually having them). Skill 1: Envisioning possibilities "Envision the end, believe that it will happen and it is much more likely to happen." Teaching children to see limitless possibilities if they believe in them. Skill 2: Independence Examples: brushing their own hair, putting on clothes, asking strangers questions. One daughter in Girl Scouts: learning sales skills by approaching strangers to sell cookies. Independence builds confidence and problem-solving abilities for small and big life challenges. Skill 3: Self-belief / Self-worth Tied to independence. Helps children navigate life and career successfully. Robin asks about teaching self-belief Context: Mandy's kids are 6 and 9 years old (two girls). Mandy's approach to teaching self-belief Combination of: Words Mandy uses when speaking to them. Words encouraged for the children to use about themselves. Example of shifting praise from appearance to effort/creativity: Instead of "You look so pretty today" → "Wow, I love the creativity that you put into your outfit." Reason: "The voice that I use, the words that I choose, they're gonna receive that and internalize it." Corrective, supportive language when children doubt themselves: Example: Child says, "I'm so stupid, I can't figure out this math problem." Mandy responds: "Oh wow. That's something that we can figure out together. And the good news is I know that you are so smart and that you can figure this out, so let's work together to figure it out." Asking reflective questions to understand their inner thoughts: Example: "What's it like to be you? What's it like to be inside your head?" Child's response: "Well, you worry a lot," which Mandy found telling and insightful. Emphasizes coming from a place of curiosity to check in on a child's self-worth and self-identity journey. 04:30 Professional Journey and Role of VP of Internal Comms Robin sets up the question about professional development Notes Mandy has mentored lots of people. Wants to understand: Mandy's role as VP of Internal Communications (what that means). How she supports others professionally. How her own professional growth has been supported. Context: Robin just finished a workshop for professionals on selling themselves, asking for promotions, and stepping forward in their careers. Emphasizes that she doesn't consider herself an expert but learns from conversations with experienced people like Mandy. Mandy explains her role and path Career path has been "a winding road." Did not study internal communications; discovered it later. Finds her job fun, though sometimes stressful: "I often think I might have the most fun job in the world. I mean, it, it can be stressful and it can't, you know, there are days where you wanna bang your head against the wall, but by and large, I love my job. It is so fun." Internal communications responsibility: Translate company strategy into something employees understand and are excited about. Example: Translate business plan for 2026 t

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin P. Zander. In this episode, I'm doing something a little different: I step into the guest seat for a conversation with one of my good friends, Andrew Bartlow, recorded for the People Leader Accelerator podcast alongside Jessica Yuen. We dive into storytelling, identity, and leadership — exploring how personal experiences shape professional influence. The conversation begins with a reflection on family and culture, from the Moroccan textiles behind me, made by my mother, to the influence of my father's environmental consulting work. These threads of personal history frame my lifelong fascination with storytelling, persuasion, and coalition-building. Andrew and Jessica guide the discussion through how storytelling intersects with professional growth. We cover how early experiences — like watching Lawrence of Arabia at a birthday sleepover — sparked curiosity about adventure, influence, and human connection, and how these interests evolved into a career focused on organizational storytelling and leadership. We explore practical frameworks, including my four-part story model (Setup → Change → Turning → Resolution) and the power of "twists" to create momentum and memorability. The episode also touches on authentic messaging, the role of vulnerability in leadership, and why practicing storytelling in everyday life—outside high-stakes moments—builds confidence and executive presence over time. Listeners will hear lessons from a lifetime of diverse experiences: running a café in the Mission District, collaborating with BJ Fogg on behavioral change, building Zander Media, and applying storytelling to align teams and organizations. We also discuss how authenticity and personal perspective remain a competitive advantage in an age of AI-generated content. If you're curious about how storytelling, practice, and presence intersect with leadership, persuasion, and influence, this episode is for you. And for more insights on human connection, organizational alignment, and the future of work, check out Snafu, my weekly newsletter on sales, persuasion, and storytelling here, and Responsive Conference, where we explore leadership, work, and organizational design here. Start (0:00) Storytelling & Identity Robin introduces Moroccan textiles behind him Made by his mother, longtime practicing artist Connects to Moroccan fiancée → double meaning of personal and cultural Reflection on family influence Father: environmental consulting firm Mother: artist Robin sees himself between their careers Early Fascination with Storytelling Childhood obsession with Morocco and Lawrence of Arabia Watched 4-hour movie at age 6–7 Fascinated by adventure, camels, storytelling, persuasion Early exposure shaped appreciation for coalition-building and influence Identity & Names Jess shares preference for "Jess" → casual familiarity Robin shares professional identity as "Xander" Highlights fluidity between personal and professional selves Childhood Experiences & Social Context Watching Lawrence of Arabia at birthday sleepover Friends uninterested → early social friction Andrew parallels with daughters and screen preferences Childhood experiences influence perception and engagement Professional Background & Storytelling Application Robin's long involvement with PeopleTech and People Leader Accelerator Created PLA website, branding, documented events Mixed pursuits: dance, media, café entrepreneurship Demonstrates applying skills across domains Collaboration with BJ Fogg → behavioral change expertise Storytelling as Connection and Alignment Robin: Storytelling pulls from personal domains and makes it relevant to others Purpose: foster connection → move together in same direction Executive relevance: coalition building, generating momentum, making the case for alignment Andrew: HR focus on connection, relationships, alignment, clarity Helps organizations move faster, "grease the wheels" for collaboration Robin's Credibility and Experience in Storytelling Key principle: practice storytelling more than listening Full-time entrepreneur for 15 years First business at age 5: selling pumpkins Organized neighborhood kids in scarecrow costumes to help sell Earned $500 → early lessons in coalition building and persuasion Gymnastics and acrobatics: love of movement → performance, discipline Café entrepreneurship: Robin's Cafe in Mission District, SF Started with 3 weeks' notice to feed conference attendees Housed within a dance studio → intersection of dance and behavioral change First experience managing full-time employees Learned the importance of storytelling for community building and growth Realized post-sale missed opportunity: storytelling could have amplified success Transition to Professional Storytelling (Zander Media) Lessons from cafe → focus on storytelling, messaging, content creation Founded Zander Media (2018) Distributed small team, specializes in narrative strategy and video production Works with venture-backed c

In this episode, I'm joined by Virginie Raphael — investor, entrepreneur, and philosopher of work — for a wide-ranging conversation about incentives, technology, and how we build systems that scale without losing their humanity. We talk about her background growing up around her family's flower business, and how those early experiences shaped the way she thinks about labor, value, and operating in the real economy. That foundation carries through to her work as an investor, where she brings an operator's lens to evaluating businesses and ideas. We explore how incentives quietly shape outcomes across industries, especially in healthcare. Virginie shares why telehealth was a meaningful shift and what needs to change to move beyond one-to-one, supply-constrained models of care. We also dig into AI, venture capital, and the mistakes founders commonly make today — from hiring sales teams too early to raising too much money too fast. Virginie offers candid advice on pitching investors, why thoughtful cold outreach still works, and how doing real research signals respect and fit. The conversation closes with a contrarian take on selling: why it's not a numbers game, how focus and pre-qualification drive better outcomes, and why knowing who not to target is just as valuable as finding the right people. If you're thinking about the future of work, building with intention, or navigating entrepreneurship in an AI-accelerated world, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, join us at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th, where we'll keep exploring incentives, human skills, and what it really takes to build things that last. Start (0:00) Reflections on Work, Geography, and AI Adoption Virginie shares what she's noticing as trends in work and tech adoption: Geographic focus: she's excited to explore AI adoption outside traditional tech hubs. Examples: Atlanta, Nashville, Durham, Utah, Colorado, Georgia, North Carolina, parts of the Midwest. Rationale: businesses in these regions may adopt AI faster due to budgets, urgency, and impatience for tech that doesn't perform. "There are big corporates, there are middle and small businesses in those geos that have budget that will need the tech… and/or have less patience, I should say, for over-hub technologies that don't work." She notes that transitions to transformational technology never happen overnight, which creates opportunities: "We always underestimate how much time a transition to making anything that's so transformational… truly ubiquitous… just tends to think that it will happen overnight and it never does." Robin adds context from her own experience with Robin's Cafe and San Francisco's Mission District: Observed cultural and business momentum tied to geography Mentions Hollywood decline and rise of alternative media hubs (Atlanta, Morocco, New Jersey) Virginie reflects on COVID's impact on workforce behaviors: Opened a "window" to new modes of work and accelerated change: "There were many preexisting trends… but I do think that COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible." Emphasis on structural change: workforce shifts require multi-year perspective and infrastructure, not just trends. Investor, Mission, and Capital Philosophy Virginie clarifies she is an investor, not a venture capitalist, resisting labels and prestige metrics. "I don't call myself a venture capitalist… I just say investor." Focuses on outcomes over categories, investing in solutions that advance the world she wants to see rather than chasing trendy tech sectors. "The outcome we want to see is everyone having the mode of work that suits them best throughout their lives." Portfolio themes: Access: helping people discover jobs they wouldn't otherwise know about. Retention / support: preventing workforce dropouts, providing appropriate healthcare, childcare, and caregiving support. "Anyone anywhere building towards that vision is investible by us." Critiques traditional venture capital practices: Raising VC money is not inherently a sign of success. "Raising from a VC is just not a sign of success. It's a milestone, not the goal." Concerned about concentration of capital into a few funds, leaving many founders unsupported. "There's a sense… that the work we do commands a lot less power in the world, a lot less effectiveness than holding the capital to hire that labor." Emphasizes structural, mission-driven investing over chasing categories: Invests in companies that prevent workforce dropouts, expand opportunity, and create equitable access to meaningful work. Portfolio strategy is diversified, focusing on infrastructure and long-term impact rather than quick wins. "We've tracked over time what type of founders and what type of solutions we attract and it's exactly the type of deal that we want to see." Reflects on COVID and societal trends as a lens for her investment thesis: "COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible," highlighting alternative modes of work an

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Jeff Jaworsky, who shares his journey from a global role at Google to running his own business while prioritizing time with his children. We talk about the pivotal life and career decisions that shaped this transition, focusing on the importance of setting boundaries—both personally and professionally. Jeff shares insights on leaving a structured corporate world for entrepreneurship and the lessons learned along the way. We also explore the evolving landscape of sales and entrepreneurship, highlighting how integrating human connection and coaching skills is more important than ever in a tech-driven world. The conversation touches on the role of AI and technology, emphasizing how they can support—but not replace—essential human relationships. Jeff offers practical advice for coaches and salespeople on leveraging their natural skills and hints at a potential future book exploring the intersection of leadership, coaching, and sales. If you're curious about what's next for thoughtful leadership, entrepreneurship, and balancing work with life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, get your tickets for Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th here, where we'll continue exploring human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) Early life and first real boundary Jeff grew up up in a structured, linear environment Decisions largely made for you Clear expectations, predictable paths Post–high school as the first inflection point College chosen because it's "what you're supposed to do" Dream: ESPN sports anchor (explicit role model: Stuart Scott) Reality check through research Job placement rate: ~3% First moment of asking: Is this the best use of my time? Is this fair to the people investing in me (parents)? Boundary lesson #1 Letting go of a dream doesn't mean failure Boundaries can be about honesty, not limitation Choosing logic over fantasy can unlock unexpected paths Dropping out of college → accidental entry into sales Working frontline sales at Best Buy while in school Selling computers, service plans, handling customers daily Decision to leave college opens capacity Manager notices and offers leadership opportunity Takes on home office department Largest sales category in the store Youngest supervisor in the company (globally) at 19 Early leadership challenges Managing people much older Navigating credibility, age bias, exclusion Learning influence without authority Boundary insight Temporary decisions can become formative Saying "yes" doesn't mean you're locked in forever Second boundary: success without sustainability Rapid growth at Best Buy Promotions Increasing responsibility Observing manager life up close 60-hour weeks No real breaks Lunch from vending machines Internal checkpoint Is this the life I want long-term? Distinguishing: Liking the work Disliking the cost Boundary lesson #2 You can love a craft and still reject the lifestyle around it Boundaries protect the future version of you Returning to school with intention Decision to go back to college This time with clarity Sales and marketing degree by design, not default Accelerated path Graduates in three years Clear goal: catch up, not start over Internship at J. Walter Thompson Entry into agency world Launch of long-term sales and marketing career Pattern recognition: how boundaries actually work Ongoing self-check at every stage Have I learned what I came here to learn? Am I still growing? Is this experience still stretching me? Boundaries as timing, not rejection Experiences "run their course" Leaving doesn't invalidate what came before Non-linear growth Sometimes stepping down is strategic Demotion → education Senior role → frontline role (later at Google) Downward moves that enable a bigger climb later Shared reflection with Robin Sales as a foundational skill Comparable to: Surfing (handling forces bigger than you) Early exposure to asking, pitching, rejection Best Buy reframed Customer service under pressure Handling frustrated, misinformed, emotional people Humility + persuasion + resilience Parallel experiences Robin selling a restaurant after learning everything she could Knowing the next step (expansion) and choosing not to take it Walking away without knowing what's next Core philosophy: learning vs. maintaining "If I'm not learning, I'm dying" Builder mindset, not maintainer Growth as a non-negotiable Career decisions guided by curiosity, not status Titles are temporary Skills compound Ladders vs. experience stacks Rejecting the myth of linear progression Valuing breadth, depth, and contrast The bridge metaphor Advice for people stuck between "not this" and "not sure what next" Don't leap blindly Build a bridge Bridge components Low-risk experiments Skill development Small tests in parallel with current work Benefits Reduces panic Increases clarity Turns uncertainty into movement Framing the modern career question Referenci

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Melissa Painter, founder of Breakthru – a platform bringing movement, mindfulness, and behavior change into workplaces around the world. We talk about how Melissa uses movement as a tool to improve focus, resilience, and well-being, and how her background in dance and creative movement informs her approach to human performance. We explore the science and art of helping people move more, think better, and feel more connected to their work and each other. Melissa shares how she designs short, immersive experiences for employees, what it takes to change workplace culture, and why small, intentional shifts in movement can unlock big changes in thinking and performance. We also dive into the intersection of creativity, neuroscience, and technology, and how thoughtful, human-centered design can make work feel more alive and meaningful. If you're curious about how movement, mindfulness, and behavior change can transform your work and life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, creativity, and thriving in the modern workplace. I'm so glad and honored to have Melissa joining us in this talk. If you're interested in her work, take a look at Breakthru – you can try it and share it with your team here: Take your first Breakthru! https://breakthru.me/

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives. We talk about how Bonfire began as a "Trojan horse" – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth? Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories. We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of "broetry" on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing. If you're curious about what's next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) Robin notes how transparent and intentional they've been building their business and community Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional Invites them to describe what they're building and their vision for it Kevan's response: Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an "entrepreneur" Laughs that it's technically true but still feels strange Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency They work with early-stage startups Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation. But says the heart of their work is much deeper "We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn't defined by it." Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn't pay the bills Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful A space to have these conversations themselves And to invite others into it This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about Shannon adds: They're agnostic about what Bonfire "does" Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop "Money is just gas in the engine." The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success Robin reflects on their unusual path Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed Recalls their past experiences Kevan's path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster Shannon's shared time with him at Oyster Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire's first live retreat in France 13 participants, including them Held in a rented castle For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive Asks: "How did it go? What did people get out of it?" Shannon on the retreat Laughs that they're still processing what it was They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure One participant described it as "a wellness retreat for marketers" Not wrong – but also not quite right Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds The focus: exploring people's most meaningful relationship to work Who you are when you're not at your desk How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals People came at it from different angles Some felt misaligned with their work Others were looking for something new Everyone was at a crossroads in their career Kevan on the space they built The retreat encouraged radical honesty People shared things like: "I have this job because I crave approval." "I care about money as a status symbol." "I hate what I do, but I don't know what else I'd be good at." They didn't force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity From "marketer" to something else – maybe "producer," maybe "creator" The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible "Now I just want to do more of this." Robin notes there are "so many threads to pull on" Brings up family business and partnerships Shares his own experience growing up in his dad's small business Talks about lessons from Robin's Cafe and the challenges of partnerships Says he's fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky Asks how Shannon and Kevan's working relationship works What it was like at Oyster Why they decided to star

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Miki Johnson – coach, facilitator, and co-founder of Job Portraits, a creative studio that helped companies tell honest stories about their work and culture. Today, Miki leads Leading By Example, where she supports leaders and teams through moments of change – whether that's a career shift, new parenthood, or redefining purpose. We talk about how to navigate transition with awareness, why enjoying change takes practice, and what it means to lead with authenticity in uncertain times. Miki shares lessons from a decade of coaching and storytelling – from building human-centered workplaces to bringing more body and emotion into leadership. We also explore creativity in the age of AI, and how technology can either deepen or disconnect us from what makes us human. And if you're interested in these kinds of conversations, we'll be diving even deeper into the intersection of leadership, creativity, and AI at Responsive Conference 2026. If you're interested, get your tickets here! https://www.responsiveconference.com/ __________________________________________________________________________________________ 00:00 Start 01:20 Miki's Background and Reservations about AI Miki hasn't used AI and has "very serious reservations." She's not anti-AI – just cautious and curious. Her mindset is about "holding paradox", believing two opposing things can both be true. Her background shapes that approach. She started as a journalist, later ran her own businesses, and now works as a leadership coach. Early in her career, she watched digital technology upend media and photography – industries "blown apart" by change. When she joined a 2008 startup building editable websites for photographers, it was exciting but also unsettling. She saw innovation create progress and loss at the same time. Now in her 40s with two sons, her focus has shifted. She worries less about the tools and more about what they do to people's attention, empathy, and connection – and even democracy. Her concern is how to raise kids and stay human in a distracted world. Robin shares her concerns but takes a different approach. He notes that change now happens "day to day," not decade to decade. He looks at technology through systems, questioning whether pre-internet institutions can survive. "Maybe the Constitution was revolutionary," he says, "but it's out of date for the world we live in." He calls himself a "relentless optimist," believing in democracy and adaptability, but aware both could fail without reform. Both worry deeply about what technology is doing to kids. Robin cites The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and says, "I don't believe social media is good for children." He and his fiancée plan to limit their kids' screen time, just as Miki already does. They see it as a responsibility: raising grounded kids in a digital world. Robin sees AI as even more transformative – and risky – than anything before. "If social media is bigger than the printing press," he says, "AI is bigger than the wheel." He's amazed by its potential but uneasy about who controls it. He doubts people like Sam Altman act in the public's best interest. His concern isn't about rejecting AI but about questioning who holds power over it. Their difference lies in how they handle uncertainty. Miki's instinct is restraint and reflection – question first, act later, protect empathy and connection. Robin's instinct is engagement with vigilance – learn, adapt, and reform systems rather than retreat. Miki focuses on the human and emotional. Robin focuses on the structural and systemic. Both agree technology is moving faster than people can process or regulate. Miki uses curiosity to slow down and stay human. Robin uses curiosity to move forward and adapt. Together, they represent two sides of the same challenge: protecting what's most human while building what's next. 10:05 Navigating the Tech Landscape Miki starts by describing how her perspective has been shaped by living in two very different worlds. She spent over a decade in the Bay Area, surrounded by tech and startups. She later moved back to her small hometown of Athens, Ohio—a progressive college town surrounded by more rural areas. She calls it "a very small Austin", a blue dot in a red state. She loves it there and feels lucky to have returned home. Robin interrupts briefly to highlight her background. He reminds listeners that Miki and her husband, Jackson, co-founded an employer branding agency called Job Portraits in 2014, the same year they got married. Over eight years, they grew it to around 15 full-time employees and 20 steady contractors. They worked with major startups like DoorDash, Instacart, and Eventbrite when those companies were still small—under 200 employees. Before that, they had started another venture in Chicago during Uber's early expansion beyond San Francisco. Their co-working space was right next to Uber's local team setting up dri

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller. We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else. Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he's faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that's truly his. We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way. He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries. We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life. Bobby's story shows that creativity isn't about perfection – it's about showing up and being authentic. He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others. This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter. 00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling Bobby on storytelling Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. Drama is about "what you're both keeping back and what you're waiting to surprise your audience with." Steve Jobs anecdote Jobs builds suspense with "one more thing." On stage, he asks: "Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?" (the tiny jeans pocket). Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out "the world's smallest iPod and people flip out." Why it works: audience knows the pocket's size → no need to explain iPod's dimensions. Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff. Bobby's takeaway: "That's really good storytelling, man. It's really good storytelling." "People call him a salesperson. Like he's a great salesman. He's a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you're pulling people in. That's the key." Robin on storytelling & AI His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups. Says video itself doesn't matter as much as impact: "What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion." Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: "The value of sitting at Homer's feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away." Bobby on storytelling & art Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect. Sees it like art: "Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to." Calls art his "oldest friend, who I've probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform." Believes everyone can create: "Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world." Goal of art/storytelling: help others "find some relationship to the world around them through it." 06:01 Art as a Form of Expression Robin's setup Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – "perfect intersection" of art + business. Distinguishes museum art ("old, on walls") from art that's "around us all the time." Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, "that is great art in the form of good communication." Asks: why do we separate "high" art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)? Art is everywhere Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness: "You're looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn't just appear. You're just paying attention." Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it's all around you. Lesson from a design teacher: "If it wasn't dug up or grown, it's designed." Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art. Pushes back on the museum-only view of art: "Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There's art everywhere." Examples of art woven into daily life: Clothing, headphones, glasses Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints Freeway dividers, lamps Even tools: "Go get a hammer. The handle's probably painted a color. It may be a penny's worth of art, but it's art, man." Definition of art: "All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something." Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling. Perspective shift: Once you adjust your lens, "there's a lot of art out there. It's really, really amazing." 12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art Bobby compares practice to a relationship: "It's like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst." Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: Wants to be fed, but often ignored. A

Hi everyone, welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. This episode is a little different - instead of me hosting, I was actually the guest on my good friend Josh Levine's podcast, Great Mondays Radio. Josh and I went deep on a topic I care about a lot: why soft skills are the hard currency of the future. We explored what really sets humans apart in an age of rapid innovation, the rise of AI, and all the talk about machines taking over jobs. We dug into the skills that can't be automated, the value we bring that AI can never replicate, and why those human capabilities will only matter more in the years ahead. We also touched on leadership, creativity, and how we can all prepare ourselves - and our organizations - for the changes still to come. Please take a moment to subscribe to Josh's show, Great Mondays Radio. It would mean a lot to both of us, and I know you'll enjoy the incredible conversations he's hosting. I'm also excited that Josh will be joining us at Responsive Conference 2025 as a guest - so this won't be the last time you hear from him in our orbit.

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of "guardrails" over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can't wait for you to hear more. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone's Answer: Ultimate frisbee player – "the entirety of my adult life" Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet – "It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old." New father – navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a "sanctuary in time," paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen's metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can't creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone's thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a "container" with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don't care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don't tend to make predictions, but I think this one's inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as "Nones" (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. "There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it's not in the forms we're used to." A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin's Café and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun. We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek. Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what's "enough" in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next. Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm thrilled for you to hear her on stage. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Books Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art — Lewis Hyde Anansi Boys — Neil Gaiman Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week — Alex Pang Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less―Here's How — Alex Pang Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less — Alex Pang Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts — Ryan Holiday Today Was Fun — Bree Groff The 4-Hour Workweek —Tim Ferriss Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization — Robin Zander Podcasts/Videos TED Talk: How to Start a Movement — Derek Sivers Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree's nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover – a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background. Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it — it stood out and made a statement. The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. The color isn't quite yellow — it's that "gross green" that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. "It's got some edge... not your straight-up yellow." This tension – bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off – is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself. The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn't know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. Bree relates completely. She talks about: Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. The concept of flirtation – not romantic, but playful: A wink in a branding campaign. A reference that only a few insiders get. A running joke between team members. Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection. These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity. "You need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, 'we're in this together.'" She argues that fun isn't a distraction – it's a sign that something is working. Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don't follow the rules, and that's what makes them interesting. Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: There's a cultural script that says "seriousness = competence." But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. Being human together – laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold – is what builds bonds. Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. "You have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work." They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun – it's productive. Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he's realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and "likability." Bree offers a deeper lens: Being "palatable" – meaning universally acceptable – is actually the opposite of being memorable. People who try to please everyone end up blending in. What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some. She draws a line between Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms. Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it. "Please don't chew me up. I'm not palatable — I'm not trying t

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum. We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he'd do differently today. Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) "Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often." Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp. He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds "a lot of controversial opinions" on AI, not that it's insignificant, but that there's a lot of "idealization." Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps: Camp A: "Oh my God, this changes everything." These are the fear-mongers shouting: "If you don't adopt now, your career is over." Camp B: "This will blow over." They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it. Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum. He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are "arms merchants" – they're pushing AI tools because they've invested billions. These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it's unclear how they generate ROI. believe in AI's potential and aggressively push adoption inside their companies. So, naturally, these execs have to: But "nothing ever changes that fast," and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base. Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) AI is materially different from past tech, but what's missing is attention to how adoption happens. "The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional." Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software. Frontline managers are key: it's their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI. Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation. Suggests teams should "play with AI tools" in a way totally unrelated to their actual job. Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. "Well, that's a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?" The point isn't utility, it's comfort and conversation: What's OK to use AI for? Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI? Should you tell your boss or hide it? The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) Robin brings up Ezra Klein's podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: "What's the purpose of writing an essay in college?" AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output. Says: "I'm much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter." Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual "sob story" to win favor. All the writing he's done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better. "The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it's what it trains." Learning How to Learn (6:35) Robin's fascinated by "skills that train skills" – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context. Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and "meta-learning" – especially since it's so hard to measure or study. He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn't the thing itself? We don't yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking. Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us "dumber." Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time. But also: the "10,000 repetitions" idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill. There's a tension between "performance mode" (getting the thing done) and "growth mode" (learning). He relates it to writing: Says he's a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change. Pamela Larde, PhD is a scholar and expert on the topic of joy. She is the author of Joyfully Single: A Revolutionary Guide to Enlightenment, Wholeness, and Change and a professor of Leadership Development at Anderson University. Her mission is to help develop leaders who lead with heart. Pamela illustrates the role of joy as a powerful tool, empowering individuals to cultivate resilience and gracefully navigate the myriad challenges life presents. Through her teachings, the concept of joy transforms into more than just an emotion—it becomes a reservoir of strength, an anchor of optimism, and a guide to living life to the fullest. In this episode, we talk about the importance of joy at work and in life, the difference between happiness and joy, what to expect from her at Responsive Conference, and more. Pamela is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Pamela on the podcast!