Religion on the Mind

Attention YHP Listeners: Starting in October, the podcast You Have Permission will change its name to Religion on the Mind. This rebrand will come with new artwork and focus more broadly on the overlap of Psychology, Religion & Spirituality. We look forward to telling you more in the coming days… stay tuned! I sit down with previous guest Matt Naylor from the Milkless podcast to explore a disturbing pattern he discovered through a simple Google experiment: searching for public figures known for embracing violence and cruelty, then adding "father" to see what emerges. From Elon Musk to Joe Rogan to JD Vance, the batting average for abuse, abandonment, and alcoholism is striking. We dig into the neuroscience behind early childhood attachment, examining how those first six months of life literally wire our brains for how we perceive safety in the world. Matt shares research on rat mothers who groom their babies differently and how those early experiences shape everything from stress response to longevity—findings that translate directly to human development. We explore the unique roles fathers play in transmitting worldview and values, diving into attachment research that shows father-child relationships are particularly crucial for managing externalizing behaviors like aggression and rule-breaking. The conversation takes a personal turn as Matt reflects on his own family history and his determination to raise daughters who see the world as an enchanted place full of wonder rather than a threatening landscape requiring constant vigilance. The episode weaves together cutting-edge brain science, attachment theory, and deeply personal reflection on what it means to be a father in an increasingly polarized world. Take It Offline Question: What things do you find that you feel in your body about the world that don't line up with the way you wish you felt about the world? Milkless Podcast Child-father attachment and behavior problems (NIH) Christian Century interview with Vern Bengston about fathers and religious transmission to children ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this week’s Top of Mind segment, I address the Charlie Kirk assassination through cognitive distortions, calling out the all-or-nothing thinking that's turning him into either a blessed martyr or democracy's destroyer when the reality is more nuanced. I also push back against the dangerous idea that speech equals violence, pointing out that Kirk's murder serves as a stark reminder that actual bullets—not words—constitute real violence. For this week’s main episode, I’m going solo. I start by sharing how my own faith deconstruction included grappling with evolution. From questioning young earth creationism to eventually embracing evolutionary theory by my late twenties, and how evolution informs my therapeutic practice. Then, I go into how psychology has fully embraced evolutionary explanations across five key areas: attachment theory (which appears across species and helped our ancestors survive through bonding), shame (as an evolved social conscience that keeps us aligned with group norms), sexual jealousy (as mate-guarding behavior found throughout the animal kingdom), anxiety (as an overactive alarm system that kept our ancestors alive through hypervigilance), and depression (as either energy conservation during adverse conditions or analytical rumination for solving complex problems.) These evolutionary frameworks help reduce client shame by showing that their struggles aren't personal defects but rather ancient survival systems that are now mismatched to our modern world. In the Patreon-only portion, I dive deeper into attachment research with macaques, the neuroscience of shame and anxiety across species, mate-guarding behaviors from chimpanzees to humans, and two competing theories of depression—the hibernation model and analytical rumination hypothesis. Episodes Mentioned: Episode with Adrian Wyard | To Accept Theistic Evolution (#2) To Trust Science (#28) Evolution Myths & Long Lifespans in Genesis (#36) Who’s Afraid of Evolutionary Psychology? (#47) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My fellow Beach Boys fan and returning guest David Zahl is back to discuss his provocative critique of self-optimization culture in his Plough Quarterly piece "Against Self-Optimization.” As someone who has maximized my morning routine to a science, I wrestle with my own efficiency obsession and David's argument that our machine-like language and relentless pursuit of becoming "optimized" versions of ourselves is fundamentally dehumanizing. We look at how Jesus wasn't particularly efficient, how the wellness industry monetizes our unhappiness, and whether there's a difference between optimization and ruthless efficiency. Along the way, we touch on everything from Daft Punk's "Harder Better Faster Stronger" to the theology of death, the loneliness epidemic, and why churches that function too seamlessly might actually be missing the point. David brings his characteristically poetic perspective to counter my more prose-like approach, creating a conversation that challenges both the Silicon Valley promise of endless self-improvement and the Christian concept of becoming our "ideal selves" — while somehow managing to work in references to Beach Boys, Radiohead, and why AI should do our laundry, not write our books. David's Piece Against Optimization David's Books Songs Played: Me Without You | "Red Cow & Dorothy" Daft Punk | Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I sit down with licensed therapist Emily Maynard—herself a product of Dobson-influenced parenting—to unpack what I'm calling one of the most consequential psychological disasters of the last fifty years. While James Dobson's death a few weeks ago has evangelicals reflecting on his legacy, Emily and I dig into the wreckage his teachings left in therapy offices across America. We explore how his "loving discipline" and will-breaking methods created attachment wounds, spiritual abuse, and shame cycles that adults are still untangling decades later—and why parents who would never have hit their children became convinced it was the most loving thing they could do. Emily brings both clinical expertise and personal experience to bear on questions that hit close to home: How do you heal from authoritarian parenting that was sold as godly love? What happens when the very people meant to be your safe harbor become sources of fear? And perhaps most importantly—what do we carry forward, and what do we finally have permission to leave behind? Emily's Website | ⁠Emilymaynardtherapy.com⁠ Emily's Instagram | ⁠@Emilymaynardlmft⁠ ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

He’s out from behind the green curtain! In this episode, my guest is none other than my producer and audio/editor wizard, Josh Gilbert. Josh spends about 23 hours per week listening to conversations on religion, psychology, and deconstruction. He joins me to tell how this work has fundamentally changed his worldview and sense of self. For Josh, this immersive listening experience has made it nearly impossible for him to be surprised by new ideas and has pushed him towards comedy and entertainment for palette cleansing. He tells the story of attending both Black Lives Matter protests and police ride-alongs, and shares how listening has transformed his capacity for empathy and given him the ability to see multiple perspectives. We dive into the psychology of repetition, the nature of intellectual humility, and how Josh's journey through religious scrupulosity and OCD diagnosis has intersected with his unique vantage point as someone who absorbs thousands of hours of other people's spiritual and psychological processing—without being able to contribute his own voice to the conversation. In the Patron-only portion, we wrestle with the deeper questions of religious belief—Josh arguing that we inevitably construct our beliefs from our experiences rather than discovering objective truth, while I explore whether there's a defensible middle path where following Jesus's teachings remains worthwhile even if I'm entirely wrong about the metaphysical claims of Christianity. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this week’s episode of You Have Permission, I sit down with Dr. Richard B. Miller, Professor Emeritus from the University of Chicago Divinity School, to tackle his blunt question (and the title of his book): Why Study Religion? What starts as a defense against critics like Sam Harris—who'd rather we just stick to the "straight dope" of science—quickly spirals into something much more provocative: religion as the ultimate training ground for navigating our hypermediated, pluralistic world where we're drowning in conflicting authorities and information overload. Miller argues that religious studies isn't just academic navel-gazing but a crucial skill-building exercise in what he calls "post-critical reasoning," teaching us to hold multiple worldviews in tension without falling into either fundamentalist certainty or relativistic paralysis. We discuss why the secularization hypothesis got it wrong, how contemplative traditions across religions offer surprising resources for the ecological crisis, and why understanding the religious "wackadoodles" (my term, not his) might be the key to actually changing minds rather than just preaching to the choir. By the end, I'm wrestling with my own biases about expanding this podcast beyond Christianity, and you'll be questioning whether your discomfort with religion says more about the world's problems or your own assumptions about how to solve them. Richard's Book | Why Religion Matters? ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last week I hosted a live Q&A session for our Patrons—one of the perks that comes with a YHP Patreon membership (now on sale for 42% off an annual subscription with code BIRTHDAY). We spent a good portion of the time talking about the concept of “audience capture” and this podcast in particular, and whether I've been shaped by what my listeners want to hear rather than staying true to my own interests and convictions. I admit I might be constitutionally allergic to giving people what they want and may be too resistant to audience preferences rather than captured by them—while another member suggests that my contrarian nature might itself be a form of audience capture! Other questions come up about the experience of hosting a podcast— how I handle criticism, my defensive tendency to avoid listening to podcasters who do what I want to do better than me, and the raw envy I feel when I see smaller podcasts outperforming mine. We also get into the Internal Family Systems modality of therapy, which sparked a rich discussion about this approach to understanding different "parts" of ourselves. In the Patreon-only portion, we continue the IFS discussion with input from trained therapists, discuss the challenges and benefits of having podcast listeners as therapy clients (including awkward moments when they look me up!), and field questions about work-life balance, religious traditions, and personal experiences with various therapy modalities. Thanks to all of you who came… and hope to see the rest of you soon! ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s the last week of my 42nd birthday sale! Become an Annual Member of my Patreon now for just around $4 a month. Also, I'm now taking therapy clients in Washington State and coaching clients nationwide, specializing in religious transitions and life changes that intersect with faith journeys. More info here. In this week’s “Top of Mind” segment, I reflect on the legacy of Dr. James Dobson, a prominent figure in evangelical psychology and parenting advice; highlighting some things Dobson got right, as well as areas where his teachings have caused great harm. I discuss Dobson's influence on conservative Christian views, critique some of his psychological perspectives, and evaluate the accuracy of his claims and evaluate the accuracy of his claims regarding queer sexuality, “secular humanism” in modern psychology, and his most influential area: parenting and discipline. In today’s main interview (beginning around min 33), comedian Jeremy Alder is here to discuss his journey from fundamentalist homeschooling in Texas to stand-up comedy. Jeremy brings sharp wit and genuine theological insight as we trace his path from a prosperity gospel upbringing through youth group dropout years, then back to faith via Augustine's Confessions and Reformed University Fellowship at UT Austin. Now, Jeremy blends Eastern Orthodox spirituality with liberation theology while creating his "Christians That Don't Suck" video series that highlights radical Christian figures fighting against what he calls "Confederate fascist Christianity." We explore how his philosophy and religion background shaped both his comedy and his current pursuit of a degree to work with religious trauma survivors, the practical realities of changing careers in your forties with five kids, and making the leap into creative work that challenges both conservative Christians and secular audiences. Jeremy's Website | Jeremyalder.com ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My 42nd birthday sale is LIVE! Join as an Annual Member of my Patreon to get 42% off through September 1 and enjoy ad-free access to Patron-exclusive content like this! In today’s bonus episode, team member Joy Vetterlein and I tackle what might be the most commonly given piece of marriage advice at wedding receptions: "don't go to bed angry." After seeing comedian Leanne Morgan flip this conventional wisdom on its head during a Colbert appearance, we dive into why this advice became so popular in mid-20th century America through the "infection model" of marital conflict, explore what modern neuroscience tells us about arguing while dysregulated (hint: your prefrontal cortex isn't working very well at a 7+ on the anger scale), and discover that the original biblical verse this advice comes from had absolutely nothing to do with marriage. I share my practical "rule of sevens" for knowing when to table an argument, and confess to being the type of person who will hijack wedding videographers to give counter-programming relationship advice. In the Patreon portion, Joy and I get personal about our own marriages, including her revelation about needing to give herself permission to consider divorce in order to truly choose her marriage, and we explore a 7th-century monk's surprisingly modern insights about anger as spiritual energy. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get 42% off a YHP annual Patreon membership, while we celebrate Dan’s 42nd birthday! (Ends Sept 1st) ~Use code “BIRTHDAY”~ It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour (Full Episode Special), where Dan Koch sits down with Tony Jones and Josh Gilbert to peel back some layers about self-reflection, media habits, and big financial decisions, all through their differing generational perspectives. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My friend James Wightman joins me to tell me about What Would Jesus Sell? a documentary he's been working on for eight years about the Christian music industry. We get into how Christian music evolved from the genuine DIY spirit of the 1970s Jesus Movement into today's sanitized, focus-grouped machine that prioritizes “Becky” (the industry's target demographic of exhausted soccer moms) over artistic integrity. James reveals the open secrets everyone in green rooms and tour buses has whispered about for years, explains why the incentive structures actually punish authenticity while rewarding conformity, and shares how his own journey led him to realize that both artists and consumers are trapped in an exploitative system that uses spiritual language to sell us baby food when we're starving for a real meal. He also shares some insider perspective on the recent allegations against Michael Tait. It's a conversation about art, faith, commerce, and what happens when you try to package the sacred for mass consumption. James on Instagram | @James.final.mp4 Walk Me Through Jesus Movement Music '67-'79 (Part 1) ⁠Walk Me Through Jesus Movement Music '67-'79 (Part 2) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sarah Lane Ritchie is back for our final Shiny Happy People discussion from Season 2 of the Amazon docuseries. Sarah opens with a delightfully unhinged question about whether I've ever been exorcised (spoiler: I haven't, but Sarah casually drops that she's had "many, many" attempted exorcisms like it's no big deal). We then tear into episode three's heavy-handed turn toward political fearmongering that had even us progressive-leaning viewers rolling our eyes at their irresponsible psychoanalytic claims about Ron Luce and bristling at the lack of journalistic integrity while declaring existential threats to democracy. Behind the Patreon paywall, Sarah makes her compelling academic case for why Honor Academy functioned as a cult (it checks pretty much every box), we dive deep into my spiritual abuse research and how multiple subtypes show up in the Teen Mania system, and we wrestle with the genuinely difficult question of how much "collateral damage" might be acceptable when intense religious experiences create both profound meaning and lasting trauma for different people. ⁠⁠Watch Shiny Happy People Season 2⁠⁠ Sarah's Website | ⁠⁠⁠Sarahlaneritchie.net⁠⁠⁠ YHP Episodes on Season 1: ⁠⁠Shiny Happy People: Did Bill Gothard Create Pedophiles? (#198)⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Shiny Happy People: Are Children Born Evil? (#200)⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Shiny Happy People: Was Bill Gothard A Cult Leader? (#202)⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Is "Shiny Happy People" Anti-Religion? (#204)⁠ ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Top of Mind: I start this episode by addressing the recent report from Baptist News Global regarding former guest Dr. Laura E. Anderson, a well-known therapist and coach in the religious trauma world, detailing ethical board sanctioning and other complaints by her associates. Main Interview (Adam joins at 6:45): Licensed therapist and Place We Find Ourselves podcast host Adam Young joins me to explore how our childhood stories quite literally shape our brains—and why telling those stories accurately matters more than we might think. We dig into Adam's narrative and body-focused therapeutic approach, which complements my own cognitive work by emphasizing how our neural networks wire together through early relational experiences with primary caregivers. We discuss why truth-telling orients us with reality in ways that reduce shame and self-contempt, explore the neuroscience behind why we can't simply suppress difficult emotions (spoiler: your amygdala has other plans), and examine how attachment patterns from ages 2-3 continue influencing our adult relationships through fight-flight-freeze responses. Adam introduces the concept of "blessing our younger selves" as distinct from the popular notion of "reparenting," drawing on Internal Family Systems theory to help us understand the different parts within us that need attention. Take it Offline: Take this conversation beyond the solo podcast experience into real community with friends and ask each other: "Where do you find yourself most laboring under accusation?" He explains that all of us live with self-contempt and feel accusation about various aspects of our lives throughout our days — our parenting, our relationships, our habits, our compulsions, who we are and how we show up in the world. This vulnerable but powerful question can help bring kindness into areas that are exhausting and are often suffered in silence and alone. Adam's Website | ⁠Adamyoungcounseling.com⁠ Adam's Book | ⁠Make Sense of Your Story: Why Engaging Your Past with Kindness Changes Everything⁠ Related Episodes: Episode #197 - "Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves" with Molly LaCroixEpisode #333 - "The Science of Social Connection" with Julia Hotz Episode #337 - "The 'Middle Path' in Politics & Purity Culture" with Dr. Camden Morgante ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In today's episode, I'm diving back into the deep end with theologian and philosopher of science Sarah Lane Ritchie for part two of our response to the Shiny Happy People docuseries, focusing on episode two's unflinching look at Teen Mania's Honor Academy. We start by exploring one of the most psychologically complex aspects of growing up in end-times evangelical culture: the expectation that your life might be cut short—whether through martyrdom, the rapture, or other apocalyptic events. Sarah and I unpack how this shaped our teenage years differently, with her wrestling with anxiety about "making the cut" for the rapture while I was more concerned about missing out on earthly experiences before Jesus returned. We examine how this worldview creates two distinct buckets of spiritual trauma, and I introduce what I call "the jihad test"—a thought experiment about how we'd want someone to escape coercive religious indoctrination if they were born into a jihadist group, and why those same critical thinking tools should be available to all young people in high-demand religious environments. In the Patreon portion, we dig deeper into the militaristic aspects of Honor Academy, the psychology of high-demand religious groups, listener feedback about Bible smuggling and mission trip costs, and the complex relationship between traditional masculinity and evangelical theology. ⁠Watch Shiny Happy People Season 2⁠ Sarah's Website | ⁠⁠Sarahlaneritchie.net⁠⁠ Patreon Only Episode : ⁠Martyrdom Expectations YHP Episodes on Season 1: ⁠Shiny Happy People: Did Bill Gothard Create Pedophiles? (#198)⁠ ⁠Shiny Happy People: Are Children Born Evil? (#200)⁠ ⁠Shiny Happy People: Was Bill Gothard A Cult Leader? (#202)⁠ ⁠Is "Shiny Happy People" Anti-Religion? (#204)⁠ ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm joined again by my dear friend Sarah Lane Ritchie, theologian and scholar of science and religion, for the first of three episodes responding to the new season of Amazon's Shiny Happy People docuseries. This season shifts focus from the Duggar family to Teen Mania—arguably the biggest religious youth phenomenon of the late 20th century with a three-tier pipeline: Acquire the Fire stadium events that functioned like teenage Billy Graham crusades, Global Expeditions mission trips where kids raised thousands to evangelize abroad, and the Honor Academy internship program that took on cult-like characteristics. Sarah shares her profound personal journey beginning at age 13 at the pivotal "Day One" event with 70,000 attendees at the Pontiac Silverdome just days after Columbine, leading to transformative month-long mission trips to Ghana and Bolivia that shaped her entire academic career. We examine the sophisticated psychological mechanisms at play—from Durkheimian collective effervescence to high-stakes eternal damnation theology that made extreme actions feel necessary, the integration of Josh Harris's purity culture teachings that redirected teenage sexuality toward spiritual eroticism, and how the apocalyptic urgency created a manufactured crisis that made everything else seem trivial. This episode sets the stage for deeper dives into Global Expeditions and the troubling Honor Academy cult dynamics in our upcoming conversations, illuminating how spiritual technology shapes young lives in ways that are simultaneously transformative and potentially harmful. Watch Shiny Happy People Season 2 Sarah's Website | ⁠Sarahlaneritchie.net⁠ YHP Episodes on Season 1: Shiny Happy People: Did Bill Gothard Create Pedophiles? (#198) Shiny Happy People: Are Children Born Evil? (#200) Shiny Happy People: Was Bill Gothard A Cult Leader? (#202) Is "Shiny Happy People" Anti-Religion? (#204) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dan kicks off the episode with a new segment, Top of Mind, focused this week on former President Obama’s entry into the discourse around struggles currently faced by men and boys in the US and elsewhere: education, mental health, employment, suicide, overdoses, and identity concerns. He highlights the overlap between main points made by Obama and YHP topics, as well as gender discrepancies in therapy utilization. Richard Reeves Substack Post⁠ ⁠Obama Podcast Appearance⁠ For the main episode, I sit down with Dr. Camden Morgante, licensed psychologist and author of Recovering from Purity Culture, to explore the revolutionary concept of dialectical thinking—finding the "both/and" instead of "either/or"—as an alternative to the black-and-white thinking that dominates evangelical culture, politics, and even purity culture recovery movements. We dive into practical applications like developing a "values-congruent sexual ethic" that transcends both shame-based purity culture and consent-only frameworks, discuss the real costs of walking the middle path in our polarized world (canceled interviews, lost relationships, professional challenges), and explore how to parent for critical thinking rather than ideological conformity. This conversation offers essential insights for anyone wrestling with post-evangelical identity, seeking alternatives to political polarization, or curious about how therapeutic wisdom can inform spiritual and ethical development in an age that punishes nuance. Dr. Camden's Website Dr. Camden's Book Dr. Camden on Instagram ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this special "after hours" episode, I dive deep with my friend Chase Willett into the surprising abundance of religious and spiritual themes running through the New York Times' list of the 100 greatest films of the 21st century. We explore how our relationship with spiritually-charged cinema has transformed over the years—from Chase's evangelical need to connect every movie back to Paul's letters, to my own journey of embracing ambiguity and transcendent moments that don't require tidy theological conclusions. I share one of the most formative spiritual experiences of my life, involving a chance encounter in Stockholm and Richard Linklater's Boyhood, that reshaped how I understand human dignity and God's perspective. We also discuss spiritual technologies, the nature of transcendent experiences, and begin examining the first category of our 23-film analysis: "Mythic, Fairy Tale and Fantasy Spiritual Allegories," setting up what promises to be a rich exploration of how cinema grapples with questions of meaning and faith. In the patron-only second half, we dive deeper into The Lord of the Rings and other films in this category, commit to watching The Tree of Life and Grizzly Man before our next conversation, and hint at how our discussion may inevitably touch on contemporary geopolitical events. NY Times | 100 Best Movies of the 21st Century Episode #307 | Disability, the Beatitudes & “Changing the World” Religious/spiritual movies from the NYT list in no particular order: Interstellar Lord of the Rings: Fellowship Past Lives The Tree of Life O Brother, Where Art Thou? Spotlight The Master Lady Bird A Serious Man A Prophet Arrival Spirited Away No Country for Old Men Children of Men There Will Be Blood Melancholia Pan’s Labyrinth Mulholland Drive Mad Max: Fury Road Grizzly Man Yi Yi Her Zone of Interest ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A spiritual sequel of sorts to episode #330 on youth pastors, I’m joined by Casey and Sam from the Growing Up Christian Podcast to explore their experiences as ex-vangelicals and the evolution of their faith and show. They discuss the origins of their podcast, the role of humor in navigating serious topics, and the impact of community on their personal beliefs. The conversation delves into the complexities of identity, the challenges faced by the “faith deconstruction” community, and the importance of perspective in understanding their past. Growing Up Christian Podcast ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour, where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to peel back the layers of personal stories, health struggles, and shifting cultural landscapes through a generational and developmental lens. In today’s episode, we kick things off with a candid discussion about living with Lyme disease (sorry Tony). From there, we trade work-related stories about hustle culture, what work-life balance actually means today, what “baby blue collar” work looks like, and how different age groups think about job loyalty and purpose. Naturally, we can’t help but wander into the messiness of modern politics — exploring how our personal lives and political identities intertwine, and why nuance and community support feel more crucial than ever. In the patron-only second half of the episode, starting with an announcement from Josh’s personal life, we go even deeper: discussing the fine line between personal ambition and collective responsibility, the importance of honest conversations in bridging generational divides, and how we can show up for each other in a world that often feels more polarized by the day. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I chat with journalist Julia Hotz about her book The Connection Cure: The Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging. Julia introduces me to the fascinating world of "social prescribing," where healthcare providers actually prescribe specific social activities (like circus classes, if you're into that sort of thing) rather than just pills or therapy sessions. We dive into why intrinsic motivation makes all the difference — whether you're there because you genuinely want to be or because someone's making you show up — and how religious spaces naturally deliver many of the connection benefits we're all seeking. The conversation gets particularly interesting when we discuss my social anxiety therapy groups, where I've witnessed firsthand how group therapy can actually outperform individual therapy for certain conditions (and costs a fraction of the price, which should probably be shouted from the rooftops). We explore how 80% of our health outcomes are determined by environmental factors rather than clinical care alone. By the end, we map out practical ways anyone can create their own social prescriptions — whether it's hitting nature for attention restoration, moving your body for mood boosts, or finding your tribe through shared interests and values. Julia's Book | The Connection Cure: The Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging Julia on Instagram | @Hotzthoughts ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm joined by David Zahl, returning YHP guest and editor-in-chief of Mockingbird's online magazine. David is also a massive Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fan like myself, so I knew he would be perfect to talk with about what we know about Brian Wilson's personal faith and spirituality. We also celebrate what his music has meant to us personally, playing a lot of song clips along the way. This is a dual-feed episode on both the You Have Permission and Pretty Good Vibrations feeds because the content feels like it fits in both places. Brian Wilson passed away on June 11th. Although my attempt to have a strong line between the first half of the episode (more focused on his faith) and the second (mostly just focused on the music), things got a little blended up. Nonetheless, if you'd like to skip most of the faith/theology stuff, a good place to start listening is around the 60 min mark. David's piece on Brian Playlist for today's episode Beach Boys Mega Tournament PGV episode Part 1 ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Last week I hosted a Q&A session for You Have Permission Patreon subscribers, and we had a great time! Topics included: Christianity's anthropological influence on Western culture How Christian principles have shaped secular humanism and individual rights movements Dan's experience working his first sustained nine-to-five schedule and with college-aged clients How spiritual abuse research specifically affects clergy members rather than just congregants, touching on concepts like "burn through" versus burnout in organizational structures that may make religious institutions unsustainable for their workers. We had a great time and plan to do more of these in the future. Enjoy the recording and stay tuned for the next! ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joy Vetterlein joins me at the top of the episode to discuss the latest round of allegations against Michael Tait, and our evolving reactions and perspectives through this ongoing story. After that update, David Zahl joins me to discuss his new book The Big Relief and his take on grace as Christianity's most radical contribution to the world. We dig into the Lutheran distinction between law and grace, connecting it to Carl Rogers' unconditional positive regard and examining how contemporary culture often delivers moral instruction without the container of acceptance that makes change possible. Dave argues that whether it's progressive activism or conservative piety, we're often just "shouting at people to change and then resenting them when they don't," while true transformation happens when people feel safe enough to be vulnerable. We explore evidence for divine grace through romantic love, recovery programs, and those surprising moments when someone sees us at our worst and chooses to stay. We also get beautifully sidetracked by our mutual obsession with Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys as examples of pure gift. In the end, we're all just looking to be accepted exactly as we are. www.christchurchcville.org/david-zahl Highlights 35:58 The Role of Therapy in Grace 44:47 The Absence of Grace in Socio-Political Discourse 51:49 The Concept of Divine Acceptance 1:05:57 The Burden of Performance and Conditionality 1:10:47 Experiencing Belonging and Grace ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of You Have Permission, I'm checking in with youth pastors to see how they're really doing—and the answer is, “Not great.” My guest Joel Foster, who serves at University Church on Pepperdine's campus, argues that today's youth ministers are working with the most anxious and depressed generation of teenagers ever, but lack the tools and training to handle what they're facing. We explore uncomfortable questions about who's entering the field and why, the psychological toll of carrying students' crises without proper support systems, and whether traditional youth ministry approaches still work for today's kids. Joel opens up about late-night crisis calls, the gap between what this emotionally intensive work requires and what people are actually trained for, and the creative solutions he's developed to support fellow youth ministers. Whether you're in youth ministry, have teenagers in your life, or are curious about how we're caring for the next generation, this conversation offers crucial insights into a field under pressure and what young people actually need from the adults in their lives. Highlights 05:46 Stereotypes of Youth Ministers 15:05 Mental Health and Youth Ministry 30:56 Understanding Adolescent Development 47:21 Challenges Faced by Youth Ministers ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This special live episode was recorded with one of the pod’s favorite friends, Daryl Van Tongeren, back in October at Theology Beer Camp. We talked about how people make faith decisions without definitive proof, based partially on William James' concept of "will to believe." After we establish that Christianity can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt in our pluralistic age, we get into James's framework for "genuine options"—choices that are live, forced, and momentous. Daryl explains the cognitive biases that make certainty impossible, and how James suggests we can reasonably consider pragmatic evidence when metaphysical questions remain unanswerable. We also get into some personal stories, with Daryl sharing how one inexplicable college experience survived his decade-long deconstruction after his brother's tragic death. This was an intellectual yet practical conversation about how we can learn and choose how to live thoughtfully with uncertainty. Other episodes with Daryl: The Good of Religion Without the Bad You Are Not Your Beliefs Come to Theology Beer Camp 2025 in St. Paul, Minneasota! Highlights 01:49 The Challenge of Proving Christianity 09:00 William James and Genuine Options 21:11 The Evolutionary Perspective on Meaning 42:15 The Role of Evidence in Belief 50:25 Living with Uncertainty ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This emergency podcast responds to a new Roys Report article alleging sexual assault by Michael Tait of dc Talk and Newsboys, with my guest Tyson Motsenbocker joining to discuss both the details and broader issues at play, given our respective experiences within the Christian music world. We discuss the culture of secrecy, power imbalances, "adolescent" male culture, and normalization of predatory behavior in Christian music circles—issues that echo longstanding problems in both religious and secular music industries. I tell some horror stories from my early touring days on the Vans Warped Tour, and we connect this scandal to my research on spiritual abuse and religious trauma. The article: https://julieroys.com/former-newsboys-frontman-michael-tait-accused-sexual-assault-grooming-substance-abuse-dating-back-to-2004/ Tyson's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/5zhKRxsS4pRPhkO6vbE07u Tyson's book: https://www.tysonmotsenbocker.com/shop/where-the-waves-turn-back ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour, where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to unpack everything from personal stories to shifting generational trends. In today’s episode, we kick things off by exploring my evolving relationship with cannabis and the lingering stigma that still surrounds its use. From there, we dive into the joys and headaches of homeownership as a way of celebrating Josh and his partner Emily’s first home purchase—comparing notes on which tools are actually worth investing in and which ones just collect dust. Later, we look at the shifting landscape of religion and politics, especially how Gen Z is reimagining both faith and civic engagement in ways that often surprise older generations. And of course, we couldn’t avoid discussing the impact of COVID-19—how it reshaped our sense of community, morality, and what we expect from each other socially. I share how many of my college student therapy clients have mentioned the timing of Covid-era lockdowns as having affected their social skills development. In the patron-only second half of the episode, we go even deeper, focusing on how Gen Z is navigating political disillusionment, their renewed interest in spirituality, and what all of this might mean for the future of activism and trust in institutions. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this roundtable conversation, I reconnect with Joy Vetterlein and Jon Steingard (former Hawk Nelson frontman) to explore their parallel journeys of leaving Christian ministry contexts, building public platforms around their deconstruction experiences, and then making the countercultural decision to step back from that public work entirely. Both guests candidly discuss the complex motivations behind their initial platform-building—Jon's ingrained need for attention from his band years, Joy's readiness to stop letting others take credit for her best work—and the financial realities that made sustainability difficult. The conversation reveals how both discovered that the deconstruction community, initially appealing for its theological openness, developed its own orthodoxies and mob dynamics that felt uncomfortably similar to the evangelical culture they'd left. Ultimately, both chose privacy and continued growth over platform maintenance, recognizing the hidden costs of public work on family relationships and personal development. Their stories offer a rare glimpse into the decision to pull back from influence and attention in a culture obsessed with building platforms and growing audiences. Previous Episodes: I Don't Believe in that God: Jon Steingard (#75) I Don't Believe in That God: Joy Vetterlein (#230) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My dear friend Ben Bishop, author of The Garden House Substack, joins me to discuss how fiction can help us imagine how people from different times and places experienced the divine, particularly through the novels of Frederick Buechner. Listeners don't need to have read these works to follow our conversation—there are "no quizzes" here. Rather, Buechner’s function helps us strip away our accumulated religious assumptions. When we read biblical stories today, we're receiving them after thousands of years of theological interpretation, but Buechner helps us imagine what it felt like to be Jacob or Isaac in the moment—not as figures who knew they were part of some grand biblical narrative, but as people experiencing strange, terrifying, and wonderful encounters with the divine in real-time. Through his storytelling, we confront both the "offensiveness and the beauty and wonder of those stories" in ways that theoretical discussions simply cannot achieve, making ancient faith experiences immediate and visceral. In the Patreon-exclusive second half, Ben and I discuss our shared adolescent experiences with Christian punk rock, its influence on our sociopolitics, social lives, and faith development. Ben's Substack Ben's pieces mentioned: The Light Shines in the Darkness Straight On Til Morning ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I’m joined by my longtime friend Joe Rose, a partner at the law firm Gibson Dunn, for a wide-ranging and grounded conversation on the selection of Pope Leo XIV, the first ever American pope. We explore his background, reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis, and discuss possible downstream effects of Pope Leo’s ties to the Augustinian order. Along the way, we talk about grace, the ongoing relevance of Catholic Social Teaching, and how the papacy continues to shape the everyday spiritual lives of Catholics around the world, including Joe’s personal faith. Whether you’re Catholic or not, this episode offers insight into how tradition, global leadership, and theological nuance intersect in what is probably the world’s most influential faith community. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sara Showalter Van Tongeren is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist (and happens to be the wife of frequent pod guest Darrell Van Tongeren). She joins me to discuss religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and the process of religious belief change — areas where both Sara and I work with clients professionally. Sarah explains that for many, religion answers fundamental existential questions about freedom, identity, isolation, death, and meaning. When religious certainty is shaken, this leaves people without tools to address these questions and creates a crisis of meaning. We discuss the importance of developing "existential resilience" — the ability to navigate uncertainty and both light and dark aspects of existence after leaving religious frameworks. In the Patreon second half, we discuss embodiment in healing religious trauma, rebuilding meaning systems, and how therapeutic relationships can model healthy patterns of rupture and repair lacking in many religious contexts. My instagram: @theexistentialtherapist LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sara-showalter-van-tongeren Group Practice Website: https://www.theflourishingco.org/ My website (no shoes): https://saravantongeren.com/ Therapist Centered Group Consultation: https://www.therapeuticgroupconsultation.com/videos Everett Worthington's work on Forgiveness with free handbook/resources: https://www.evworthington-forgiveness.com/diy-workbooks Highlights: 09:46 The Fluidity of Religious Trauma 14:50 Existential Questions and Religious Beliefs 24:55 Resilience in the Face of Spiritual Abuse 30:11 Coping Mechanisms and Grounding Techniques 43:30 Fighting Back with Cognitive Therapy 50:40 The Importance of Community in Healing ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In today's episode, I reconnect with Jim Wellman from the University of Washington to discuss his fascinating undergraduate course, "A Life Worth Living." We explore how Jim guides students through fundamental questions of meaning and purpose that are often neglected in contemporary education. Jim shares touching stories of student transformations and we reflect on our own spiritual journeys—his recent reconnection with Christianity and my parallel work as a therapist addressing similar existential questions. We discuss Lisa Miller's research on spirituality's neurological benefits, Kantian ethics, and Tom Holland's thesis that Christian values underpin even progressive movements. Throughout our conversation runs a shared concern: in a consumer-oriented culture that "flattens" human experience, how can we cultivate deeper sources of meaning? This conversation felt like a vintage episode—intellectually rich yet deeply personal. Previous Episode with Jim: The Surprising Value of Megachurches (#95) Highlights 10:05 Exploring Meaning and Identity in Students 27:04 The Intersection of Spirituality and Science 44:15 Ethical and Moral Development in Education 01:00:00 Cross-Cultural Literacy and Understanding 01:08:29 Human Flourishing and Its Importance ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I grabbed my teammates Josh and Joy for a bonus, impromptu mid-week episode on our real-time reaction to the news of Pope Francis passing, some general updates about the pod, and to talk through the results of our listener survey (with some more specific analysis for the Patreon community). What do you think of the results? Do you agree? Disagree? Let us know! ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, I sit down with Justin Brierley, former host of the UK-based show Unbelievable to discuss his book Why I'm Still a Christian and explore questions of faith, doubt, and religious identity. I share my struggles with Christianity in the current American context, particularly with the rise of Christian nationalism, while Justin offers his perspective from across the pond. We discuss Justin's approach of facilitating respectful dialogue across different perspectives, something increasingly rare in our polarized media landscape. We explore the distinction between general theism and specific Christian claims, with me expressing greater confidence in theism broadly than in particular Christian doctrines like the resurrection. Justin shares how his faith incorporates both intellectual and experiential dimensions, citing C.S. Lewis's journey from philosophical theism to Christianity. Though we run out of time before covering all the arguments in Justin's book, our conversation exemplifies the kind of thoughtful, nuanced dialogue about religion that both of us value. Justin's Linktree | linktr.ee/JustinBrierley ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I bring in my team members Josh Gilbert and Joy Vetterlein to check in on the state of You Have Permission and brainstorm future content directions. We want your input too… take the YHP poll here to let us know what you want to hear in coming days! I begin by explaining my reduced presence over the past eight months due to my demanding psychology internship (a necessary step toward licensure) and share how YHP's focus has evolved beyond evangelicalism toward broader explorations of psychology, religion, and their cultural manifestations. Then, I have Josh break out the timer and we walk through nine potential miniseries concepts including Centering Prayer, TV/Movie Analysis, Therapy Modalities, Modern Perspectives on Central Christian Claims, and Theories of Religion series we jokingly dub "Call Him Sky-Daddy." In the patron-only section, the conversation wanders through political jokes, television P recommendations and friendly banter covering a mini-therapy session for Joy’s fear of appearing on podcasts, Josh's appreciation for Jesus's teaching about removing the log from one's own eye first, and my dissertation defense (which I'd completed that very day). We love making You Have Permission and we’re excited to keep making the show with input from you here… so we hope you can take 4-5 minutes and share your preferences now! ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I welcome back psychologist Dr. Chuck DeGroat to continue our discussion on narcissism in religious settings that we began in this episode in February. After recapping our previous conversation about the development and manifestation of narcissism in church systems, we discuss a troubling trend in conservative Christian circles: the demonization of empathy. Chuck expresses bewilderment at this rhetoric, suggesting it functions as "an apologetic for apathy" and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of healthy, differentiated empathy. We distinguish between losing oneself in others' emotions (undifferentiated empathy) versus maintaining healthy boundaries while connecting (differentiated empathy), noting that the critics have created a caricature of empathy as completely ungrounded. This trend is particularly concerning since low empathy is a hallmark trait of narcissism, potentially creating environments where narcissistic leadership flourishes undetected or is even rewarded. The majority of our conversation happens in the Patreon-only portion, where we explore different types of empathy, and discuss the challenges of identifying narcissistic leaders during hiring processes. We also examine whether power in church settings inevitably leads to narcissism, analyze parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and address what individuals should do when they recognize narcissistic leadership in their church—with Chuck emphasizing the importance of therapy and preparation before any confrontation. Previous Episode with Chuck: All About Narcissism (#309) Chuck's Website | Chuckdegroat.net ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this powerful return conversation with Heather Griffin, I revisit our popular "Mount Rushmore" of evangelical epistemology concepts: knowledge is easy, Bible facts, sincerity culture, and sanctified common sense. Heather shares her devastating experiences advocating for abuse survivors within the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA), revealing how institutional structures that appear to provide accountability often fail catastrophically. She describes the ACNA's unique problems where bishops operate with little oversight while clergy take vows of obedience, creating a system where speaking out against abuse can end a priest's career. The conversation takes a deeply personal turn as Heather recounts her husband Paul's near-death experience and the beautiful community response that surrounded them—creating a painful contrast with how that same community has failed abuse survivors. Heather's story highlights how even good people who demonstrate Christ-like love in crisis can become complicit in institutional failure when confronting systemic abuse, raising profound questions about spiritual transformation and institutional integrity. In the second patron-only half of the episode, Heather details her disillusionment with Christian leadership after experiencing narcissistic abuse from a bishop she trusted, explores her crisis of faith in light of these betrayals, and reflects on finding new pathways to spiritual connection despite her profound grief and disappointment. Previous Episode with Heather | “Bible Truths,” “Sanctified Common Sense,” & “Evangelical Insta-Trust: (#123) Highlights 12:26 Advocacy Work and Institutional Breakdown 24:19 Challenges within the Anglican Church of North America 45:05 Navigating Spiritual Abuse and Betrayal ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

​​In this episode of You Have Permission, I speak with indie Christian recording artist John Mark McMillan and filmmaker Thomas Torrey about Thomas's film "Long December," which explores the story of a musician facing the painful question of when to let go of creative dreams. Thomas shares how the film emerged from his own career crisis when a major project collapsed during COVID, while John Mark reflects on his journey from simply wanting to "pay bills playing music" to desiring Grammy nominations. We explore the psychology behind creative ambition, discussing core beliefs about success, the importance of defining what "arrival" looks like rather than chasing moving targets, and the stoic philosophy that "the work has to be the reward." We wrestle with how identity becomes entangled with creative pursuits and the challenge of finding meaning and contentment whether or not our dreams materialize as we initially imagined. Long December Film | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17633766/ John Mark McMillan's Music | https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1KC0OHfbRO0O5bNH2tek?si=aj6GHoLIRxmLD0Un5XQf6w ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Laird Edman, Myron Penner, and Kristen Tideman join me to talk about how psychological science has transformed our faith. We discuss how the cognitive science of religion has allowed us to hold theological claims with an open hand while deepening our appreciation for religious practice. Myron discovers that seeing religion as human-made deepens his compassion for believers of all kinds while Kristen's academic journey transforms her from would-be apologist to humble truth-seeker. Laird explains how efforts to 'debunk' religion actually strengthened his faith, and I reveal the counterintuitive way my research on spiritual abuse reinforced my appreciation for religious community. Our conversation weaves through topics including post-hoc justifications for behavior, religious anxiety, church community, and the natural human propensity for spiritual experience—ultimately showing how psychological understanding can enrich rather than diminish religious life. In the second Patron-only half of the conversation, we discussed church community, intergenerational relationships, embodied cognition, and the evolution of agency detection mechanisms. Highlights: 02:52 Cognitive Science of Religion: Understanding Belief 12:07 Psychological Insights and Spiritual Growth 21:08 Religion as a Human Construct 41:19 The Role of Humility in Belief Systems YHP Episodes Mentioned: Episode 288 | Dan Made His Own Enneagram Episode 253 | Still Christian & Way Humble About It! Episode 191 | All About Ritual (with Laird Edmund) Episode 80 | Myron is a Demon Skeptic (with Myron Penner) Episode 41 | Cognitive Science & Religious Belief (For Beginners) (with Myron Penner) Episode 39 | Psychedelics & Other "Spiritual Technologies" (with Sarah Lane Ritchie) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Dan sits down with legal scholar and author Jeffrey Rosen to discuss his book The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America. Starting from Rosen's background as a secular Jew who studied Puritan theology at Harvard, the conversation weaves through classical virtues and their relevance today to the American founders' surprisingly ecumenical approach to religion and morality. They explore the tension between Christian concepts of perfect holiness and classical virtue ethics' focus on finding the golden mean, with Rosen even sharing a song he wrote to help remember Aristotle's virtue framework. The discussion reveals how the founders were more interested in finding common ground between different wisdom traditions than enforcing rigid doctrine, leading to insights about religious freedom and the First Amendment. Throughout, they examine how ancient ideas about self-mastery and virtue remain relevant for navigating our modern pluralistic world, with practical applications from Benjamin Franklin's virtue journaling as well as contemporary approaches to living well. Highlights 19:56 The Power of the Mind and Self-Mastery 27:35 Exploring Classical Virtues 34:17 The Golden Mean and Emotional Moderation 47:04 Navigating Pluralism and Moral Flexibility 52:23 The Founders' Vision of Virtue and Freedom Jeffery's New Book | The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined Jeffery on X | @Rosenjeffrey Books Mentioned: My Voice Will Go With You ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, I talk with Stephen Keech, frontman of metalcore band Haste the Day, about maintaining Christian faith in a scene where many have moved away from religious identification. Stephen shares his journey from rigid evangelical beliefs to a more nuanced, "malleable" faith that has allowed him to adapt while keeping his core convictions. We explore why Christian bands thrived in heavy music (the natural synergy between spiritual warfare themes and metal's intensity), the market forces that initially pushed bands to identify as "Christian," and the judgmental culture that drove many artists away. Stephen discusses his transformative encounters that challenged his inherited viewpoints, his shift toward Eastern Orthodox theology, and how fatherhood redefined his purpose after leaving the "ministry platform" of being in a Christian band. Throughout, we examine what it means to be "Christ-like" in today's polarized world while acknowledging the complexity of maintaining faith in creative spaces increasingly skeptical of Christianity. Stephen's Website | Stephenkeech.com Stephen on Instagram | @stephenkeech Episode Mentioned: Episode #118 | I Don't Believe in that God: Joey Holman Episode #139 | Christian Heavy Music: Theology, Attachment, Power Highlights: 02:58 The Evolution of Christian Metalcore 11:52 The Tension Between Faith and Performance 23:57 The Malleability of Faith 51:00 Experiential Faith: Tent Poles vs. Picket Fences 01:09:48 The Moral Dilemma of Modern Christianity ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Comedian Jenny Zigrino joins me to discuss comedy and mystical spirituality. Drawing from her background in Reform Judaism and early exposure to yoga, Jenny articulated how she combines traditional religious practices with what she calls "woo" elements like moon rituals and meditation. We discussed the relationship between scientific and spiritual frameworks, with Jenny making interesting arguments about celestial influences on human behavior and challenging my skepticism about astrology with observations about the moon's documented effects on Earth. The conversation took a more personal turn when she shared about her sister's passing, leading to thoughtful reflections on how people use spiritual frameworks to process loss and find meaning in tragedy. The Patron-only second half of our conversation centered on a detailed exploration of tarot cards, including a live reading for my podcast's future, as well as a broader philosophical discussion about consciousness, death, and the limits of human knowledge. Highlights: 08:48 Exploring Reform Judaism and Spiritual Practices 14:45 Understanding Tarot and Its Therapeutic Value 19:02 The Influence of Religion on Personal Beliefs 26:13 The Nature of God and Suffering Jenny's Website | Jennyzigrino.com ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this third appearance on You Have Permission, Dr. Terry Shoemaker of Arizona State University joins me to discuss the parallels between religion and sports as described in his new book Religion and Sports: The Basics. We look at four key parallels between religious and athletic life: rituals, devotions, identities, and communities. From early morning Arsenal fan gatherings to how families connect through college football despite tense religious differences, we unpack how sports can serve many of the same social and psychological functions as traditional religion — often with lower stakes. With the similarities of how sports and religion both create calendrical rhythms, foster community bonds, create transcendent experiences, and require devotion, sports offer unique opportunities for connection across ideological divides. Highlights 05:49 Rituals in Sports and Religion 11:49 The Role of Identity in Sports Fandom 28:45 The Power of Community in Sports 42:12 Devotion: Sports as a Modern Religion Terry's Book on Sports | Religions and Sports: The Basics Terry's Faculty Page Terry's Amazon Book Page Dan's Substack Piece | In Defense of Sports Past Episodes with Terry: To Escape "Culture War Christianity" (#16) Who Are the "Spiritual But Not Religious"? (#82) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, philosopher Michelle Panchuk joins me to discuss the "just world hypothesis" — the belief that people get what they deserve in life, similar to karma. Michelle, whose early scholarly work on spiritual abuse helped inform my own research on measuring spiritual abuse, shares how the just world hypothesis can subtly infiltrate spiritual teachings with the belief that God will always offer a sense of His presence during difficult times — implying that those who don't feel God's presence must be spiritually deficient. This creates what Michelle calls a "spiritual version" of the just world hypothesis, adding layers of shame and self-doubt to existing suffering. Particularly harmful for survivors of spiritual abuse, this belief contradicts historical accounts of devoted believers experiencing spiritual darkness. In the patron-only second half, we explore the neurobiology of spiritual experience and how spiritual abuse impacts both religious practice and critical thinking. Michelle's Faculty Page Highlights 02:53 The Just World Hypothesis Explained 08:57 God's Silence and Spiritual Relationship 17:46 The Uneven Distribution of Spiritual Experiences ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, I sat down with Chuck DeGroat, known for his work on narcissism in church contexts, for a wide-ranging conversation about the intersection of narcissistic patterns and religious communities. Chuck shared insights from his clinical experience about how narcissism often emerges as a trauma response and explained the crucial distinction between narcissistic tendencies and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We explored how narcissistic leadership patterns can manifest across the theological spectrum, from conservative to progressive spaces, and how congregations adopt collective defensive postures that both attract and reinforce narcissistic leadership styles. Using Mars Hill Church as a case study, we examined how an "at war with culture" mentality can drive church growth while simultaneously undermining empathy and authentic community engagement. The conversation concluded with a rich exploration of psychological and theological integration, drawing parallels between Internal Family Systems therapy and how different religious traditions handle internal contradictions. This discussion proved so fruitful that we've planned a follow-up episode focusing specifically on spiritual harm and abuse, which will be available to Patreon subscribers. Chucks Website | Chuckdegroat.net Episodes Mentioned: Episode #187 with Molly Lacroix | Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves Highlights: 11:20 Narcissism in Church Communities 24:33 Theological Connections Between Empathy and Narcissism 32:34 Narcissism and Church Dynamics 43:30 Spiritual Abuse and Community Dynamics 50:35 Integration and Multiplicity in Spirituality ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to talk about current culture from across our 20-year age perspectives. In today’s episode we talk about: How bands I toured with on the Warped Tour are now featuring at venues reserved for “legacy acts.” 👀 Band merchandise etiquette, including one very cringe story from Tony Current events including Trump’s presidency and the TikTok ban The absurdity of long URLs in podcast advertising Institutions and outdated social media practices Our favorite media of 2024: books about burnout culture, Korean War fighter pilots, and the fall of the Roman Empire In the patron-only second half, we get more in-depth discussing Joe Rogan's recent interactions with Christian figures, and examining the intersection of apologetics, early Christian history, and religious experience. Highlights: 05:45 Political Concerns and TikTok Ban Discussions 14:47 Dude Lit, Books, Movies & TV Shows of the Year 23:53 Joe Rogan's Cultural Impact and Christianity Best of Book: Byung-Chul Han: A Critical Introduction (Josh) The Hunters by James Salter (Dan) We Were Soldiers Once... and Young (Tony) Best of Series/TV Show: Ripley (Dan) Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey (Tony) Presumed Innocent (Josh) Best of Movie: A Complete Unknown (Dan) Dune 2 (Tony) We Live in Time (Josh) Dan's Year End Mixes: Rock - Spotify Rock - Apple Music Pop - Spotify Pop- Apple Music ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I sat down with Micha Boyett, author of Blessed Are the Rest of Us and host of The Slow Way podcast, to explore the tension between millennial evangelical dreams and the realities of modern parenthood. We dove into how our generation's almost cinematic vision of "changing the world" manifested through movements like Invisible Children, Shane Claiborne's work, and TOMS Shoes – a fascinating confluence of entrepreneurship and world-saving ambitions. Micha shared her journey from being a 13-year-old Southern Baptist girl with limited ministry options to navigating suburban motherhood and raising a child with both Down syndrome and autism. We discussed how her experience has transformed her understanding of meaning, purpose, and what it means to live a life of impact. In the Patron-only second half, our conversation deepens into questions of disability, human value, and finding new meaning in the Beatitudes. Micha's Instagram | @michaboyett Ace's Instagram | @acefaceismyfriend Highlights: 04:54 Generational Expectations and Identity 20:13 The Complexity of Disability in Society 30:04 Anxiety and Parenting Challenges ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this timely conversation with returning guest Bonnie Kristian, we explore libertarianism and its evolving role in today's political landscape. Moving beyond the dated "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" cliché, we discuss how true libertarianism centers on skepticism of government power, while distinguishing it from a newer "folk libertarianism" emerging among younger Americans. Bonnie helps clarify how traditional libertarians focus specifically on limiting state power and coercion, whereas this new wave represents more of a cultural backlash against elite institutions. Through our discussion of government intervention, institutional trust, and policy, we explore the challenge of maintaining necessary social structures while remaining appropriately skeptical of institutional overreach. This conversation illuminates why different forms of libertarian thinking are resonating with many Americans today, while helping me better understand my own evolving thoughts on these complex issues. Highlights 03:28 Understanding Libertarian Identity 09:59 Election Results and Libertarian Impulses 18:43 Therapy, Psychology, and Libertarianism 25:18 Resource Distribution and the Veil of Ignorance 35:30 Trust in Institutions vs. Individual Thinkers Bonnie's Substack | Bonniekristian.substack.com Previous YHP Episodes with Bonnie: Episode 21 | To Consider Inerrancy, Infallibility & Inspiration ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Turn your brains on for a fascinating conversation with scholar and author Tara Isabella Burton (Self Made, Strange Rites, Social Creature) about one of the core tensions in modern spirituality: does it matter more if a religious or spiritual practice works, or if it's true? Drawing from my experience as a therapist and Tara's background in theology, we explore how this plays out in everything from manifesting culture to ancient religious practices. I share my more pragmatic perspective, focused on what actually helps people in therapeutic settings, while Tara makes a compelling case for why we can't separate spiritual practices from their truth claims. We dig into the placebo effect, positive thinking, the limits of pure pragmatism, and whether spiritual practices might "work" precisely because they align with deeper truths about reality. It's a nuanced discussion that challenges both pure pragmatism and rigid orthodoxy, suggesting these seemingly opposing views might actually complement each other in surprising ways. Tara's New Book | Here in Avalon Tara's Website | Taraisabellaburton.com Highlights 12:10 Modern Spirituality and Individualism 21:05 The Intersection of Faith and Truth 30:12 Pragmatism in Therapy and Spirituality 45:03 The Pursuit of Happiness and Material Success 01:07:10 Exploring the Tension Between Ancient and Modern Wisdom ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Spencer Bland joins me to discuss his journey through various Christian denominations as a southern-based comedian who now takes a more open-ended approach to spirituality. We explore how he uses his religious background as source material for his comedy, including a hilarious story about a demon named Kyle, while maintaining a thoughtful and nuanced perspective that honors personal experience rather than broad critique. Our discussion brings up the parallels between comedy and therapy as tools for processing religious experiences and how humor can help acknowledge both the absurdity and significance of our past. Spencer's Instagram | @spencerspicy Highlights 08:57 The Role of Humor in Religion 17:49 The Intersection of Comedy and Religion 31:02 From Pastor to Comedian 54:54 Healing from Religious Trauma 01:10:07 Reflections on Mission Trips and Cultural Christianity ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected] YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices