No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with Josh Brake. What if the tools shaping our future are also reshaping our humanity? As part of our series The Human Cost of AI, Josh Brake stands out as a uniquely thoughtful voice, bringing together engineering, philosophy, and theology to ask deeper questions about technology and human flourishing. We wanted to bring you the full, unabridged conversation that Josh and Lee had. This is a rich and honest exploration of what it means to live wisely, faithfully, and humanly in an age of artificial intelligence. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lee and Savannah welcome a guest on this week’s episode to discuss why everyone hates poetry! In the hot seat is professor and poet Donovan McAbee, who recently published Holy the Body, a collection of poems exploring loss, grief, and doubt. Together, they talk about the beauty of uncertainty and how poetry can be the translator of life’s darkest experiences. If you liked the selected poems McAbee read on this episode, make sure to pick up a copy of Holy the Body! Things we mentioned in this episode: Holy the Body by Donovan McAbee Selected Poems by Seamus Heaney Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon Viola Davis on Good Hang with Amy Poehler Falling by James L. Dickey Praying Drunk by Andrew Hudgins Models of the Church by Avery Dulles Follow Donovan McAbee: Instagram Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the greatest danger of AI isn’t that it becomes human, but that it reshapes what it means to be one? In part one of this series, we explore artificial intelligence through a sobering insight: every ship we build also creates the possibility of a shipwreck. The question is not whether AI will save us or destroy us, but how our own formation may already be the collateral damage of its rise. To trace the human cost of AI, we follow three fault lines: tools, sex, and money. We examine how these technologies shape our habits and desires, and how they are shaped by the systems of power we live within. Along the way, we hear from leading scholars and technologists, including computer scientist Josh Brake, philosopher Joe Vukov, MIT professor Rosalind Picard, journalist Garrett Graff, and data scientist Rumman Chowdhury. Together, they challenge the idea that AI is merely a neutral tool, revealing how it quietly directs our attention, relationships, and sense of purpose and inviting us to reconsider what it means to live well and remain human, in an age of powerful machines. Key Ideas: -Rethink “Just a Tool” Technologies are never neutral; their design subtly shapes our habits, attention, and even our sense of agency. -Ask Who You’re Becoming The deeper question isn’t what we use AI for, but how it forms our character and communities over time. -Resist the Illusion of Understanding AI systems can mimic human thought, but they do not understand meaning—reminding us to value uniquely human forms of knowing. -Guard Your Desire AI’s ability to simulate intimacy risks reshaping our longings, training us toward convenience over genuine relationship. -Follow the Incentives Behind every AI system are economic forces that prioritize engagement and profit, often at the expense of human flourishing. -Recover a Fuller Humanity Being human is more than intelligence—it includes embodiment, relationships, and moral responsibility that no machine can replicate. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI Join NSE+ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow @nosmallendeavor Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Matt Lee. What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is being an influencer on social media a calling? Can public-facing work align with a life of service? In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack a viral influencer video and explore what it means to have a dream, how it connects to vocation, and what it really means to make an impact in the world. Things we mentioned in this episode: NYT Cooking Black Sesame Rice Krispies Treats Dept. Q Paradise Cup of Tea by Kacey Musgraves Who is My Enemy by Lee C. Camp The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton The Summer Day by Mary Oliver Markings by Dag Hammarskjold The Pretender by Jackson Browne Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Laurie Santos. Many of us spend years chasing the things we believe will make us happy, success, recognition, the next promotion, the perfect relationship, only to discover they don’t satisfy the way we expected. Why are we so often wrong about what will make our lives better? Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos, creator of the most popular course in Yale’s history, Psychology and the Good Life, joins Lee C. Camp to explore the science of well-being. Drawing from decades of research in psychology and happiness science, Santos explains why our minds often “miswant” things we think will make us happy, but won’t actually do so. We cover how social comparison continually moves the goal post of our satisfaction and why practices like gratitude, social connection, and self-compassion actually do move the needle on well-being. Key Ideas Correct Our “Miswanting” Humans consistently mispredict what will make them happy, often overvaluing achievements, money, or status while underestimating the power of relationships, gratitude, and meaningful activity. Practice the Bronze Mindset Happiness often depends on our reference point; learning to focus on what we have rather than what we narrowly missed can transform how we experience success and disappointment. Invest in Real Connection Genuine social interaction—from deep friendships to small conversations with strangers—remains one of the strongest predictors of long-term well-being. Embrace Negative Emotions as Signals Feelings like sadness, loneliness, or overwhelm are not failures of happiness but important psychological signals that guide us toward needed changes. Turn Knowledge Into Practice Knowing the science of happiness isn’t enough; lasting flourishing comes through habits—small, repeated behaviors like gratitude, rest, and time affluence. Take Baby Steps Toward Well-Being Even small practices—ten minutes of meditation, a gratitude journal entry, or a meaningful conversation—can gradually shift our lives toward greater happiness. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Laurie Santos⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back by popular demand! Class is back in session this week as Lee and Savannah walk through Dispensationalism for Dummies, Christian Nationalism, and Just War Tradition in light of our current moment. So grab your notebooks and pens because you’re going to need them! What do you think? Do we need a part 3? Things we mentioned in this episode: Theo of Golden by Allen Levi Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser Man in the High Castle The Just War Tradition by Daniel Bell Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many of us spend years chasing the things we believe will make us happy, success, recognition, the next promotion, the perfect relationship, only to discover they don’t satisfy the way we expected. Why are we so often wrong about what will make our lives better? Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos, creator of the most popular course in Yale’s history, Psychology and the Good Life, joins Lee C. Camp to explore the science of well-being. Drawing from decades of research in psychology and happiness science, Santos explains why our minds often “miswant” things we think will make us happy, but won’t actually do so. We cover how social comparison continually moves the goal post of our satisfaction and why practices like gratitude, social connection, and self-compassion actually do move the needle on well-being. Key Ideas Correct Our “Miswanting” Humans consistently mispredict what will make them happy, often overvaluing achievements, money, or status while underestimating the power of relationships, gratitude, and meaningful activity. Practice the Bronze Mindset Happiness often depends on our reference point; learning to focus on what we have rather than what we narrowly missed can transform how we experience success and disappointment. Invest in Real Connection Genuine social interaction—from deep friendships to small conversations with strangers—remains one of the strongest predictors of long-term well-being. Embrace Negative Emotions as Signals Feelings like sadness, loneliness, or overwhelm are not failures of happiness but important psychological signals that guide us toward needed changes. Turn Knowledge Into Practice Knowing the science of happiness isn’t enough; lasting flourishing comes through habits—small, repeated behaviors like gratitude, rest, and time affluence. Take Baby Steps Toward Well-Being Even small practices—ten minutes of meditation, a gratitude journal entry, or a meaningful conversation—can gradually shift our lives toward greater happiness. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Laurie Santos⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sonja Lyubomirsky. What if the secret to happiness isn’t success, status, or even positive thinking, but the simple act of letting yourself be known? Psychologist and bestselling author Sonja Lyubomirsky has spent more than three decades studying human happiness. She shares from her new book, ⁠How to Feel Loved: The Five Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most⁠, about what science reveals about gratitude, kindness, hedonic adaptation, and the surprising limits of life circumstances. Her newest research goes even deeper: happiness flourishes when we feel genuinely loved, and that begins not by impressing others, but by becoming known. Key Ideas: Rethink What Happiness Is: Happiness is both feeling good in your life and feeling satisfied with your life—an interplay of emotion, meaning, and progress toward what matters. Don’t Chase Circumstances: Beyond basic needs, new cars, promotions, and bigger houses bring only temporary boosts because of hedonic adaptation. Practice What You Can Control: Gratitude, acts of kindness, and intentional habits can measurably increase well-being—even influencing immune health. Lead With Curiosity: The first step to feeling loved is helping someone else feel loved—through genuine questions, deep listening, and real presence. Choose Vulnerable Connection: We feel loved not when we impress others, but when we allow ourselves to be seen in our full humanity. Adopt the Multiplicity Mindset: No single behavior defines you—or anyone else; compassion grows when we remember we are all complex, unfinished quilts of strengths and flaws. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sonja Lyubomirsky⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let’s talk about the billion-dollar industry that turns friendship into a sales funnel, and women into its favorite target. They show up in your DMs with compliments before they show up with a pitch. They promise community, purpose, and financial freedom. But behind the glossy before-and-afters and the "girl boss" energy, multi-level marketing companies have a darker history, and a devastatingly predictable math. This week, Savannah and Lee trace the origins of MLMs from a vitamin salesman in the 1930s all the way to your Instagram inbox, unpack why women have always been the primary target, and ask the harder questions: what happens when community gets weaponized for profit, and what does it mean that 99% of recruits lose money, and keep recruiting anyway? Things we mentioned in this episode: Strangers by Belle Burden Savannah's new album Songs of Peace in Times of War Apple Music | Spotify Humoresque by Antonín Dvořák AI Series on No Small Endeavor releases on April 6th! Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the secret to happiness isn’t success, status, or even positive thinking, but the simple act of letting yourself be known? Psychologist and bestselling author Sonja Lyubomirsky has spent more than three decades studying human happiness. She shares from her new book, ⁠How to Feel Loved: The Five Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most⁠, about what science reveals about gratitude, kindness, hedonic adaptation, and the surprising limits of life circumstances. Her newest research goes even deeper: happiness flourishes when we feel genuinely loved, and that begins not by impressing others, but by becoming known. Key Ideas: Rethink What Happiness Is: Happiness is both feeling good in your life and feeling satisfied with your life—an interplay of emotion, meaning, and progress toward what matters. Don’t Chase Circumstances: Beyond basic needs, new cars, promotions, and bigger houses bring only temporary boosts because of hedonic adaptation. Practice What You Can Control: Gratitude, acts of kindness, and intentional habits can measurably increase well-being—even influencing immune health. Lead With Curiosity: The first step to feeling loved is helping someone else feel loved—through genuine questions, deep listening, and real presence. Choose Vulnerable Connection: We feel loved not when we impress others, but when we allow ourselves to be seen in our full humanity. Adopt the Multiplicity Mindset: No single behavior defines you—or anyone else; compassion grows when we remember we are all complex, unfinished quilts of strengths and flaws. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sonja Lyubomirsky⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Ronald Rolheiser. What if the final chapter of your life could become your greatest gift? In this deeply wise conversation, Father Ronald Rolheiser joins Lee C. Camp to explore the spiritual invitation of aging. Drawing from his latest book ⁠Insane for the Light: A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years⁠, Rolheiser reflects on loneliness, diminishment, forgiveness, and what it means to give not only our lives—but our deaths—away. This episode offers profound wisdom for anyone seeking authentic human flourishing in the final seasons of life. Key Ideas: Give Your Death Away The final stage of life invites us to offer our vulnerability and diminishment as a gift, leaving behind a spirit of peace rather than resentment. Choose Your Old Fool Aging makes us all “old fools”—but we can become pathetic, angry, or holy, depending on whether we cling, resent, or receive with grace. Grieve So You Don’t Grow Bitter Unhealed wounds harden into anger over time, but grieving what cannot be undone allows the soul to mellow. Live from the “Above Mind” Jesus’ call to metanoia invites us out of defensive paranoia into open-handed trust, courage, and love. Practice Gratitude and Forgiveness In the wisdom years, the spiritual vocabulary simplifies. Two words remain: gratitude and forgiveness.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Ronald Rolheiser⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when dispensational theology or Christian nationalism directly informs foreign policy without critical reflection or moral accountability? In this episode, we get to hear from the Professor himself, Lee C. Camp, as he takes the podium to trace the historical roots of Christian nonviolence, exploring how followers of Jesus have wrestled with war and peace across the centuries. Savannah and Lee examine reports that more than 200 complaints have been filed by members of the U.S. armed forces regarding commanding officers invoking “God’s divine plan” to justify military action. These stories raise a pressing question at the intersection of faith, power, and policy: War—what is it good for? Things we mentioned in this episode: Jemar Tisby on No Small Endeavor Christian Attitudes Toward War and Peace by Roland H. Bainton Christian attitudes to war, peace, and revolution: a companion to Bainton by John Howard Yoder Who Is My Enemy? by Lee C. Camp With God on Our Side by Bob Dylan Also: pre-save Savannah's album! Some of our sources! US troops were told war on Iran was ‘all part of God’s divine plan’, watchdog alleges (The Guardian) MRFF Inundated with Complaints of Gleeful Commanders Telling Troops Iran War is “Part of God’s Divine Plan” to Usher in the Return of Jesus Christ (MRFF) Jemar Tisby on Threads Why Would Some Christians Be Excited About War With Iran? Benjamin Cremer on Substack Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the final chapter of your life could become your greatest gift? In this deeply wise conversation, Father Ronald Rolheiser joins Lee C. Camp to explore the spiritual invitation of aging. Drawing from his latest book ⁠Insane for the Light: A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years⁠, Rolheiser reflects on loneliness, diminishment, forgiveness, and what it means to give not only our lives—but our deaths—away. This episode offers profound wisdom for anyone seeking authentic human flourishing in the final seasons of life. Key Ideas: Give Your Death Away The final stage of life invites us to offer our vulnerability and diminishment as a gift, leaving behind a spirit of peace rather than resentment. Choose Your Old Fool Aging makes us all “old fools”—but we can become pathetic, angry, or holy, depending on whether we cling, resent, or receive with grace. Grieve So You Don’t Grow Bitter Unhealed wounds harden into anger over time, but grieving what cannot be undone allows the soul to mellow. Live from the “Above Mind” Jesus’ call to metanoia invites us out of defensive paranoia into open-handed trust, courage, and love. Practice Gratitude and Forgiveness In the wisdom years, the spiritual vocabulary simplifies. Two words remain: gratitude and forgiveness.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Ronald Rolheiser⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kim Stanley Robinson. Do you feel the weight of climate dread—and wonder whether hope is still intellectually honest? Acclaimed science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson joins Lee C. Camp to name our shared fear about the future without surrendering to despair. Drawing from ⁠The Ministry for the Future⁠, Robinson offers a sober, deeply hopeful vision of change, one rooted not in heroics or denial, but in ordinary people, communal action, and the slow work of making things better. Together they explore how science, faith, and moral imagination can help us live well, even in a warming world. Key Ideas: Hope Without Illusion Robinson shows how genuine hope can coexist with fear, grounding optimism in science, collective action, and moral resolve rather than denial. Ordinary People Matter History often turns not on heroes or villains, but on everyday people, bureaucrats, scientists, neighbors, who do the right thing at critical moments. Utopia as Process A better future isn’t a flawless destination, but a continual movement toward less suffering, greater justice, and deeper solidarity. The Sacredness of the Biosphere Care for the planet is not just technical or political work, but a form of devotion rooted in humility, wonder, and reverence for life. Community Over Individualism Human flourishing depends on shared systems, food, labor, science, and governance that remind us how deeply we rely on one another. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Kim Stanley Robinson⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices