Bad People

Back in 2016 the pizza restaurant owner James Alefantis began to receive a large number of abusive messages on social media. Confused and afraid, he goes online and to his horror discovers dozens of bogus articles describing how the basement of his pizza joint is being used to traffic and molest children. The architect of this so-called “child sex ring”, the fake articles conclude, is presidential candidate Hillary Clinton and her inner circle. Later that year, Edgar Welch burts into the restaurant armed with guns. He fires several shots into a cabinet where he believes the children are being kept. In this episode of Bad People, criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss the mental gymnastics required to believe in conspiracy theories and how such beliefs can lead to violence. Welsch committed a crime that landed him in prison and left the community traumatised, but he thought he was saving children, so does that make him a bad person? We discover that Welsch is not a special case, on the contrary, conspiracy beliefs are very common and we are all vulnerable to their potentially harmful influence. This episode includes audio from an interview with Hillary Clinton at the Politics and Prose Bookstore in Washington, CBS Evening News, Fresh Air with Dave Davies from NPR, CNN and BBC World Service.Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Lara Frumkin and James Munro Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan HaskinsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.#BadPeople_BBC

A group of American soldiers sought out and murdered three civilians in Afghanistan. How did this happen? Was it the work of a rogue platoon or is it part of a larger issue?On this episode of Bad People, Dr. Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss how soldiers are trained to kill and what counts as murder at war. How do we distinguish between a successful battlefield kill and an unlawful murder? This episode includes audio from a documentary made by F/8 filmworks, and directed by Dan Krauss, called The Kill team.Warning: This episode contains strong language and descriptions of violenceCREDITSPresenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Lara Frumkin and James Munro Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan HaskinBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.#BadPeople_BBC

This episode of Bad People features the writer of the new BBC One hit drama, Time, Jimmy McGovern. There will be spoilers. Mark Cobden is drunk. Again. But this time he gets into his car and drives off. Moments later he hits and kills a cyclist. Criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw, comedian Sofie Hagen and the Bafta and Emmy-winning writer Jimmy McGovern discuss what makes dangerous driving a relatable crime. Mark did not mean to hurt anyone, so does he belong in prison? And if so, what sort of prison? McGovern shares details about the production and follows up on how he understands the motivations of his characters, the stories that lead them to crime and their guilt and atonement. And, McGovern speaks about how his own life and harsh childhood growing up in Liverpool, informs his writing. Warning: This episode contains strong language and descriptions of violenceCREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Lara Frumkin and James Munro Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan HaskinBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds. #BadPeople_BBC

This is part two of the shocking story of abuse and torture which marked the small German town of Höxter. Angelika was called the ‘torture witch’, a psychopath, and a sadist.The truth about Angelika is more interesting. Her relationship with Wilfried took her down a dark path that made her testimony in court so hard to listen to that the judge called a break so everyone could get some air. But it’s not just the details that shocked people, her ice cold presentation was seen by many as proof that she was a Monster.But, should she have been judged so harshly for her cold appearance in court? And what led her to willingly and enthusiastically describe every detail of her crimes? In this episode of Bad People Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss assumptions about psychopathy, whether autism can increase the risk of being the victim or perpetrator of violence, and how escalating and absurd rules are often a component of domestic violence that makes it hard to leave an abuser.Warning: This episode contains descriptions of extreme violence. Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Lara Frumkin and James Munro Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan HaskinsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds. #BadPeople_BBC

In the middle of a snowstorm in April 2016 a car broke down on the outskirts of a sleepy German town. Angelika, a middle-aged woman, stepped out and knocked on a neighbour’s door asking for help. Wilfried, her partner, stayed behind. But, why did the woman in the back of their car have so many injuries? What had happened to her? In this episode of Bad People, presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss a famous German case of abuse and torture which shocked the country. They talk about the link between domestic violence and torture, and whether you need to be a sadist to inflict such pain onto others. This is part one of two. Warning: This episode contains descriptions of extreme violence, including sexual violence. Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Matt Chandler Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Lara Frumkin and James Munro Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan HaskinsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

In the 1930s in Tuskegee, Alabama, hundreds of men signed up to a medical study which offered free transportation to and from hospitals, free hot lunches and free medicine for most diseases.But the men were not informed of their diagnosis or treated for the disease that was killing them - syphilis. This study went on for 40 years and 128 men died from syphilis and related conditions.On this episode of Bad People, Dr. Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss whether or not the Tuskegee syphilis study is impacting the uptake of the COVID vaccine in America today, how racism impacts medical research, and the importance of tackling everyday racism.This episode includes audio from NBC news, ABC news, and White House Television.Warning: This episode contains strong language and discussion of racism. CREDITS Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla Elphick Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

In 1997 Lyle May murdered a young mother and her son, allegedly after being annoyed by them at a dinner party. He was later convicted of two counts of first-degree murder and is now on North Carolina’s Death Row. Should he be allowed to get a prison education? In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the link between prison education and violence and overcoming the self-stigmatisation of inmates. They also speak with Stephen Akpabio-Klementowski, who went to prison in 2002 and is now an Associate Lecturer in Criminology at The Open University.He tells us about life behind bars, the challenges of learning in the noisy environment of a prison and whether rehabilitation and punishment can coexist. Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and suicide. This episode contains archive from BBC Storyville College Behind Bars. Presenters: Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Editor: Rami Tzabar Music: Matt Chandler Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

American film producer Harvey Weinstein has been sentenced to 23 years in prison for two separate cases of sexual assault. Women have made allegations of Weinstein committing sexual assault over decades.Are people who witnessed his crimes but didn’t speak up partly to blame for his long history of misconduct? And, what is it about some workplaces that make them particularly likely to lead to people not speaking up when things go wrong?On this episode of Bad People, Dr. Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss why people don’t speak out about sexual assault and harassment in the work place. They are joined by Dr. Camilla Elphick from the Open University, who shares her research on why so many witnesses choose not to speak up, and how we can mobilise witnesses to help alleviate the burden of reporting from victims of harassment and discrimination.This episode includes audio from Untouchable: The Rise and Fall of Harvey Weinstein produced by Lightbox Media Limited.Warning: This episode contains strong language and discussion of sexual assault. CREDITS Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami Tzabar Academic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington and Dr. Camilla Elphick Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason Phipps Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Children are playing on the grounds of a former Irish Mother and Baby Home in Tuam when they find 20 tiny skeletons under a concrete slab. Stories follow that shock the world, of over 800 babies found in a septic tank. But who is to blame?Years later, an investigation into the Bon Secours Home establishes that 978 babies and children died on the grounds while it was run by Catholic nuns. The 2021 report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes draws attention to the horrific treatment of unmarried mothers in Ireland throughout the 20th century, who often had nowhere to go but to these mismanaged and abusive homes. The leader of Ireland, the Taoiseach, apologised for the profound and generational wrong which was the result of stifling, oppressive and brutally misogynistic culture. But, how did it get so far? And, what can we do to make sure such a situation doesn’t happen again?In this episode of Bad People, criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen try to understand why society still judges young mums, examine the concept of coercive confinement, and explore research on religion-related child maltreatment.This episode includes audio from a Video dramatization of individuals' stories produced by the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters.Warning: This episode contains strong language and descriptions of violenceCREDITSPresenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.#BadPeople_BBC

William Melchert-Dinkle posed as a female nurse online and encouraged people with suicidal thoughts to hang themselves. He even watched some of them carry it out via webcam. He was convicted of assisting suicide and given a prison sentence. But, this is an unusual case.Does criminalising assisted dying protect vulnerable people or take the power away from people to choose when and how they die? Geoff Whaley suffered from motor neurone disease and campaigned for assisted suicide to be legalised so his wife could legally help him travel to Switzerland to end his life at Dignitas. He advocated for the right to die with dignity and physician-assisted suicide, where doctors prescribe drugs for eligible patients to self-administer to end their own life.Tony Nicklinson suffered from locked in syndrome and campaigned for voluntary euthanasia to be legal. Do laws against assisted dying discriminate against people with disabilities? On this episode of Bad People Dr Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss whether we can strike a balance between protecting vulnerable people while also empowering people to have autonomy over their own death. This episode includes audio form Dateline NBC and Channel 4’s Dispatches.Warning: This episode contains strong language and discussion of suicide.CREDITSPresenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds#BadPeople_BBC

On the 19th February 2008, nine-year-old Shannon Matthews went missing in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire. She had just been dropped off by a coach at her school which was just half a mile from her home. Shannon’s best friend said her brother was supposed to be collecting her but he never turned up.Shannon’s mum Karen reported her missing later that evening. The Police moved quickly for fear that she had been abducted. Emotional TV appeals by her mother, Karen, soon followed. At one stage, up to 250 officers and 60 detectives and half the UK’s Police sniffer dogs were involved in the search – making it at one time, one of the largest investigations since the Yorkshire Ripper case 30 years earlier.As the search grew more frantic, suspicion started to fall on her family. First on Karen’s boyfriend and then on Karen herself. In this episode, Julia and Sofie talk about the disappearance of Shannon Matthews, the issue of social class and victimhood and research by Dr Leanne ten Brinke on analysing videos of pleaders to see if it is possible to detect high-stakes lies.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder, child abduction and suicide.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

On the 22nd of April 1972, the police in the southeast London borough of Lewisham were alerted to a house fire on Doggett Road. On the second floor of the building, they discovered the body of 26-year-old Maxwell Confait.Three boys later confessed to the murder. In this episode of Bad People, Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen examine what went wrong in the police interviewing process, the major legal reforms that followed and their implications for police practices in the UK today. We also hear from Dr. Zoe Walkington of The Open University on what it’s like to train detectives and does the ‘good cop, bad cop’ style of interviewing ever work?Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and suicide. Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds#BadPeople_BBC

The former President of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, was implicated in the killing of between 50,000 and 100,000 people. In 2006, he was sentenced to death by hanging for committing crimes against humanity. But do his crimes justify his death? Should we be writing him off as evil or is it worth trying to empathise with him? And does revenge actually make us feel good in the long run?Warning: This episode contains strong language and descriptions of violence Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field & Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Popstar Nadja Benaissa was convicted of recklessly transmitting HIV. She was blackmailed and attacked by the press. Did she deserve the hatred she received? On this episode of Bad People, presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether knowingly spreading an infectious disease should be criminalised and what that means for COVID-19 rule breakers. Is consenting to getting HIV legally possible? What are the ethical problems raised by putting someone with HIV or AIDS in prison? And why are we obsessed with hunting down ‘patient 0’? Find out how all of these questions and more, apply to our psychology and behaviour during the COVID-19 pandemic.This episode includes citations from The Guardian Interview with Nadja Benaissa, ‘I knew I was HIV positive’. Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to HIV/AIDS, COVID-19, and drugs and addiction. Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field & Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for The Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Murderers. Dictators. Sex offenders. Why do people do bad things? Bad People is back for another series.Archive credits: This episode contains audio from House of Saddam, a BBC Television and HBO Films production, and Shannon: The Mother of All Lies, a BBC Panorama production.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field & Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarAcademic Consultants for Open University: Dr. Zoe Walkington Dr. Camilla ElphickCommissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsThe new series of Bad People is produced in partnership with the Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Charles Sobhraj is a convicted killer and the inspiration for the new BBC One drama, The Serpent. Julia and Sofie speak with producer Paul Testar about the unlikely history of Interpol, missing persons, and Sobhraj’s many escapes. We also hear audio clips from Herman Knippenberg, who played a crucial role in Sobhraj’s capture.Find out how he once tunnelled a hole through the ceiling of a jewellery shop, faked the symptoms of appendicitis, and threw a birthday party for the Tihar Jail’s prison guards – and even why there is a statue of him in a restaurant in Goa, India.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence and murder. Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Charles Sobhraj is a convicted killer and the inspiration for the new BBC One drama, The Serpent.Julia and Sofie speak with Julie Clark, journalist and author of On the Trail of the Serpent: The Life and Crimes of Charles Sobhraj. Julie and her late husband Richard Neville met Sobhraj. What is he really like? And we hear from Sobhraj himself as Julie shares a secret recording from his cell. Spending so much time with Sobhraj landed Julie and Richard in a tricky situation, Sobhraj told them he had plans to break out of jail. Did they tell the police? What should journalists do when they find themselves in similar moral dilemmas?And do Julie’s observations suggest that Sobhraj is a psychopath?Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence and murder.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

What happens when a man serving multiple life sentences keeps killing in prison?In July 1996, while in solitary confinement, Craig Bjork wrote to the warden of Stillwater prison in Minnesota threatening to commit mass murder against his fellow inmates. One year later he kills his first victim. Bjork who was already serving three consecutive life terms for killing his entire family reportedly asked ‘what can they do? Give me more time?’ On this episode of Bad People presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss and a phenomenon called ‘prisonisation, violence and sexual assault in prison, and the importance of keeping inmates safe. Warning: This episode contains references to violence in prisons, sexual assault, extreme violence against children and executions. Archive credits: This episode includes audio from The Star Tribune newspaper.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Early one morning in July 2019, Brandon Clark used his online platform to share graphic photos with his followers, including a photo that appeared to show a woman’s bloodied torso, captioned “I’m sorry Bianca”.Not long after this, police found Brandon lying on top of a green tarp. He had spray-painted the words “May you never forget me” on the ground. He had killed 17-year-old ‘micro-influencer’ Bianca Devins. Why did he choose to broadcast her murder? Sofie Hagen and Dr Julia Shaw discuss ‘e-girls’, research on jealousy and male proprietariness, and what we need to consider to avoid similar horrific acts happening in the future.Warning: Contains strong language and references to violence and murder. Archive credits: This episode contains audio from WIBX's Keeler Show and eyewitness news UticaPresenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Charles Sobhraj is a convicted killer and the inspiration for the new BBC One drama, The Serpent. Julia and Sofie speak with producer Paul Testar to learn what it was about Sobhraj that inspired this show. Was it the nature of his crimes? His charm? Or something else? Julia and Sofie discuss Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and how this famous construct was partly inspired by hippie culture. Perhaps Maslow can help us better understand how Sobhraj appealed to so many people travelling abroad? Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence and murder.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

When far-right terrorist Anders Breivik murdered 77 people, many of whom were children, court-appointed psychiatrists declared him insane. Many Norwegian members of the public were angry that a diagnosis of a psychotic disorder would mean he would not be held accountable for his crimes and might even be freed early. He told doctors that he was the leader of a military group at war with Norway, committed to racist, anti-Muslim ideas.Breivik himself rejected the "insanity defence", insistent that he committed the mass murders with the aim of achieving high-profile media coverage at his trial. This episode of Bad People wrestles with the problem of giving media platforms to terrorists, radicalised by the internetA second evaluation found him to be sane. This time psychiatrists said that his symptoms were due to a severe narcissistic personality disorder combined with pathological lying and therefore he was accountable for his actions.22 July 2011 forever changed Norway's relationship with homegrown extremism and it's hoped that the knowledge gained by psychiatrists about such terrorists will help to prevent future attacks.Warning: This episode contains descriptions terrorism, extreme violence and death, including the death of children. Archive credits: This episode includes audio from the United Nations, TEDx Talks and BBC NewsPresenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

On February 7th 2009, Australia experienced its worst natural disaster. The weeks-long intense heat and gale force winds culminated in 400 separate wildfires which ended up taking 173 lives.In the town of Churchill, detectives began an investigation which led them to believe that one man, driving a sky-blue sedan, may be responsible for 10 of those deaths.After the arrest, detectives quickly realised that the man in their custody was not who they thought they'd be dealing with.On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss wildfire arson, the dubious origin of the link between sex and fire and how we can tell when someone is malingering.Archive credits: This episode includes audio from ABC, Inside The Mind of An Arsonist.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

If a killer refuses to reveal where they’ve hidden a body – should they have to stay in prison?Helen McCourt’s family campaigned for the UK to adopt an Australian-style “no body, no parole” law – but would it be adopted in time to stop the release of her killer?In 1989 pub landlord Ian Simms was one of the first people in the UK to be convicted on DNA evidence without the victim's body having been found. Sentenced to at least 16 years in jail for Helen's murder, Simms still claims he's innocent.The jury were convinced by forensic evidence such as traces of Helen's blood which were found in Simms' flat and car. An opal and pearl earring identical to one Helen was wearing when she went missing was also found in the boot of his car.Although "no body, no parole" might act as a deterrent to some offenders who choose not to reveal where their victim's body is, we also hear hear about concerns that it might interfere with the goals of rehabilitating offenders and reducing re-offending. The 750,000 signatories to a petition supporting Helen's Law believe that the needs of families whose pain continues as long as they have no body to bury should be prioritised.Helen's mum Marie McCourt hopes that one day she will be able to take flowers to Helen's grave.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

There were signs that the former polo player Alexander Lewis Ranwell was unravelling in early 2019. He’d lost his job and his girlfriend, was living in a caravan and was no longer taking medication to treat his delusions or hallucinations. He’d been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and had a history of substance abuse.He was arrested after letting loose animals and attacking a farmer and later released by the police, despite his bizarre behaviour. A short walk from the train he took to Exeter he came across a house where the elderly resident had a note on his door: he was looking for accommodation for himself and his cat.Suffering from delusions, Lewis Ranwell believed himself to be a policeman, hunting down paedophiles, and that a missing girl was being held prisoner in homes he randomly selected. In the two houses he visited three elderly men were found dead.No one at Exeter Crown Court could remember the defence of insanity being used in a case before – so how difficult is it to prove?In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen explore the reality of paranoid schizophrenia, exposing some of the myths which exist in popular culture and stigmatise mental illness.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and violence.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

An excavation reveals horrific truths about Robert Pickton. The bodies of dozens of women are unearthed on a pig farm, many of whom are sex workers and indigenous. Pickton’s defence team argues that he has a low IQ and was used as a pawn.On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how Canadian police failed indigenous women and talk to Professor Stephen Hart who worked with the prosecution in the Pickton case to discover what we can really know about one of Canada’s most notorious serial killers. This case is broken into two episodes. This is part two. We highly recommend you listen to part one before tuning into this episode.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.Archive credits: This episode includes audio from East Van Production’s documentary, The Pig Farm.Reference: Sentencing decision: R v Robert William Pickton [2007] BCSC 2039Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Over 60 sex workers go missing in Vancouver. Robert Pickton is a pig farmer. There are stories of bloodied women's clothes on his farm and even a dead body hanging in a barn. But this isn’t enough for the police to search his property. Could he be to blame?On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss research on why people don’t always tell the truth and often retract police statements.This case is broken into two episodes. This is part one.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Hospitals are places of safety, where staff help people to get better. So the parents of four children left in the care of Beverley Allitt never imagined that she’d harm them. The 22 year old nurse was convicted of their murders and harming 9 others on Ward Four at the Grantham and Kesteven hospital in Lincolnshire in 1991. Police worked out that Allitt was the only person present for all of the unexplained collapses and that she had reported the key to the insulin fridge missing. Childhood friends and nurses she trained with later told of her self-harm and bizarre behaviour including finding faeces in the fridge. In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the self-harming seen in Munchausen Syndrome - and how it can develop into Munchausen by Proxy - where a caregiver induces or fabricates a child’s illness. They ask: could Allitt have been stopped earlier? Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to violence against children.Archive credits: This episode contains audio from Real Stories, Sky, ITV.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Paula McGrath Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

People have been going missing from Toronto’s Gay Village since the 70s. The gay community claims that the police are not taking the disappearances seriously enough. The pieces start to fall into place when one man goes missing and leaves a diary entry for that day saying “Bruce”. Police survey a Bruce McArther, a gardener and mall Santa. When they see him enter his flat with another man, they break the door down only to find a man handcuffed to his bed. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen uncover why there are very few serial killers over the age of 40, and why people from vulnerable populations are less likely to be reported missing.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence, and murder.Archive credits: This episode includes audio from CBC, Global News and W5.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Murderers. Psychopaths. Sex offenders. Why do people do bad things? Bad People is back. Warning: Contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.Archive credits: This episode contains audio from CTV Television network and Global News. Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Paula McGrath and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Elizabeth Holmes is the world’s youngest self made female billionaire. But her nine billion dollar startup disintegrated when the truth came out. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how to tell if someone is trustworthy or not. Also, why we are so easily fooled by a pretty face and false promises.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and child abuse.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

In the small Danish town Tønder, a man is talking to a friend when the conversation takes a dark turn. His friend asks him whether he wants to have sex with an 11-year-old girl. He immediately alerts the police.On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how violence is - and isn’t - passed down through generations. Also on the show, the psychology of child sexual abuse and exploitation, and why it’s so important to have difficult conversations about paedophilia.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and child abuse.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Some 10 million tonnes of industrial waste has reportedly been dumped in a small Italian town over the past 30 years.The local mafia is suspected of securing lucrative contracts to dispose of waste and then dumping it illegally.Three decades ago doctors noticed that incidences of cancer in towns around the dumping site were on the rise.But the dumping is still happening.How can large scale crime like this take place right underneath our noses? What is it about green crime that makes us “ethically blind”? Warning: This episode contains strong language.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Two friends knock on Angie Dodge’s door and find her lying on the floor. She had been raped, stabbed and her throat cut. The police arrive, take DNA samples from the scene and start rounding up suspects. Chris Tapp was 20 years old at the time and though his DNA did not match the crime scene samples, he was called in. A few questions turned into over 100 hours of interrogations and seven polygraph tests. By the end of it, Chris confesses to killing Angie – a crime he had no recollection of committing. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss how you might end up confessing to a crime you didn’t commit. Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder. Archive credits: This episode contains audio from police tapes.Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producers: Louisa Field and Caroline Steel Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

NOTE – Discussion of this case was correct at the time of broadcast. An update – which includes the exoneration of the three boys – is outlined below.Two six-year-old boys and a 5-year-old girl, Silje, are on a playground in the Norwegian town Trondheim. The next day Silje is found dead. The boys had punched and kicked the five-year-old girl before stripping off her clothes and leaving her to die. How does this Norwegian case, and it’s response, compare to the famous case of James Bulger in the UK?At what age should we be held responsible for our actions? Nations struggle to decide how to answer this question, and some community responses shatter our expectations - for better or for worse.In this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss the age-old debate of nature versus nurture.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.Update: This case was reopened after Norwegian broadcaster NRK released a documentary series called ‘Murder in the Sledge’. It in, the investigation revealed that the boys were never formally questioned, and thus they were never interviewed by police while being fully informed of their rights. The resulting criticism led to the public prosecutor ordering a resumption of the case. On February 17th 2023, the public prosecutor stated that “on the basis of the investigation that has been carried out, we have not been able to conclude who inflicted violence on Silje.” The state concluded that the three boys who were blamed for the death of a five-year-old girl in Trondheim in 1994 are “to be considered innocent.”Presenters: Julia Shaw and Sofie HagenProducer: Louisa FieldAssistant producer: Simona RataEditor: Rami TzabarMusic: Matt Chandler#BadPeople_BBCArchive credits: This episode contains audio from police tapes.

A man breaks into Jennifer Thompson’s apartment, severs her phone wires and rapes her. Jennifer studies his face, hoping to remember enough details so that she can identify him later. In a police line-up, Jennifer is able to point out Ronald Cotton as her rapist and in two separate trials he is convicted of rape and burglary. He is sentenced to life in prison plus fifty-four years. It seems like the case is resolved. There’s only one problem: Cotton is innocent. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss why we should all be weary of our memory when identifying a person of a different race.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence.Archive credits: This episode contains audio from CBS News and CDI (La Ciudad de Ias Ideas) International Festival.CREDITS:Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Police officer Gilberto Valle opens the door to find his house surrounded by the FBI. His wife had discovered gruesome stories of kidnap and cannibalism that Valle had written about more than 100 women in an online forum.Among the stories, the wife found a detailed description of how Valle wanted to cook her alive and eat her. Valle argued that he never intended to hurt anyone and that it was all fantasy. He was sentenced to life in prison but was later released. He became known as the “cannibal cop”.On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we should police people’s thoughts, and ask whether we should fear our own dark fantasies. What is the line between fiction and reality?Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder, cannibalism and sexual violence. Archive credits: This episode contains audio from Crime Watch Daily and HBO Documentary Films.CREDITS:Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

John was home alone with his father when he suddenly remembers being abused as a child. In a fit of rage he strangles his father to death.In 2017 John wrote to Julia from prison. He had an unnerving inkling – maybe he hadn't been abused by his father, maybe everything he thought he knew about why he killed his dad was wrong. On this episode of Bad People, hosts Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss whether we can trust our own memories and the consequences of ‘false memories’. They discuss the work of professor Elizabeth Loftus who pioneered the work on false memories, as well as the research Julia has conducted on implanting false memories of committing crime.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to murder and child abuse.CREDITS:Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

A high school house party is in full swing in the quiet town of Peachland, Canada. Suddenly, hysterical screams are heard. 16-year-old Ashlee Hyatt has been stabbed to death in the middle of the driveway.Piece by piece we learn about the girl who is ultimately convicted of manslaughter, relating it to the story of the Canadian “Barbie” serial killer, Karla Homolka and notorious Hungarian countess Elizabeth Báthory.Murder is a typically committed by men, and the victims are mostly other men. Globally, women represent less than 5 percent of perpetrators. On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen discuss when and how women kill.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence and murder.Archive credits: This episode includes audio from SkyTV, Castanet News and National Geographic.CREDITS:Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

In the summer of 1984 a serial killer was on the loose in Los Angeles. Richard Ramirez or the ‘night stalker’ as he would come to be known, broke into people’s houses as they slept and then proceeded to rape, torture and murder whoever was inside. He would sometimes draw satanic pentagrams on the victims’ bodies, and use their own blood to write messages on the wall.During his trial, Ramirez gained a large group of admirers, so-called ‘murder-groupies’. He would go on to receive hundreds of letters while in prison and even got married while on death row. Ramirez is not alone in getting this kind of romantic attention. Cult leader Charles Manson, Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik and Danish killer Peter Madsen have all received fan-mail.On this episode of Bad People, presenters Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen uncover why some women seek out romantic relationships with men who have committed horrific crimes.Warning: This episode contains strong language and references to sexual violence, Satanism and murder.Archive credits: This episode includes audio from DailyMotion, NBC Universal and KRON4.CREDITS:Presenters: Dr. Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen Producer: Louisa Field Assistant Producer: Simona Rata Music: Matt Chandler Series Editor: Rami TzabarCommissioning Producer: Hannah Rose Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins Commissioning Editor: Jason PhippsBad People is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds #BadPeople_BBC

Murders. Sex offenders. Corporate psychopaths. Cannibals. This is a podcast about the people we consider to be the worst around.