Stability in Transition: Insights on Church Succession from Drake Farmer

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m looking forward to talking with Drake Farmer, the Executive Pastor of Ministries from Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada.

Are you curious about how churches manage leadership transitions smoothly? Learn about the strategic and intentional planning behind the leadership transition as Daniel Im (interviewed here) succeeded Keith Taylor as Beulah’s lead pastor. Tune in as Drake highlights the critical role of proactive succession planning, building trust, and maintaining a mission-focused mindset to ensure successful transitions.

• Get ready ahead of time. // Keith Taylor initiated the succession conversation at Beulah Alliance six years before Daniel Im stepped into the role. This foresight and intentionality were crucial in preparing the church for a smooth transition. Think not only about the immediate future, but about the next 30 years of leadership for the church. Start preparing five to ten years before the lead pastor might be ready to leave. Be intentional about talking about succession in your church’s growth stage in order to set it up for future success.
• Remember the mission and plan. // Focus on the mission during this time of preparation and searching for a new pastor. Remember it’s not about the departing pastor’s accolades or personal legacy, it’s about Jesus, the church and spreading the gospel. Have a plan in place and foster trust so that when the time comes you won’t be scrambling to get through it. Cultivate a mindset of readiness, always being prepared for the possibility of being called to a different role.
• Gradual transition. // There was a strategic overlap between Keith Taylor and Daniel Im, allowing for a gradual handover of responsibilities. Clear communication and collaboration between the outgoing and incoming leaders were essential in building trust and ensuring a smooth transition. If possible, identify when various responsibilities of the previous lead pastor will be transitioned during the succession process.
• Strategically roll out the announcement. // Daniel had previously worked at Beulah in adult ministry, but when he returned as the Senior Associate, the succession process wasn’t immediately revealed. Because the transition between Keith and Daniel was a 24-month process, Beulah’s leadership had to discern when to make the announcement. Strategically invite your staff, your key leaders, and your congregation into the transition at the right time so they can process the change without the runway being too long.
• Role clarity. // Clearly defining roles and responsibilities during leadership transitions is crucial. Key areas such as preaching, staff leadership, and strategic vision need to be addressed to ensure a smooth handover. Identify who is leading the meetings. Who is laying out the org charts and who is reporting to whom? Role clarity behind the scenes aids in a seamless leadership transition.
• Don’t be afraid to ask. // As you consider pastoral succession, who would you like to see step into that transitioning role? Don’t assume “no” from a person before asking. Identify who would be at the top of your list. Don’t be afraid to approach them and ask if they would consider coming to your church and leading. Finally, churches may benefit from partnering with organizations that specialize in consulting and coaching for succession planning. External support can provide valuable guidance and resources during transitions.

Visit drakefarmer.com to learn about Beulah Alliance Church, The Unstuck Group and connect with Drake.

NEXT STEPS // Are you navigating a leadership transition in your church?

Download our 2-Year Succession Timeline Template, inspired by insights from the episode Stability in Transition: Insights on Church Succession from Drake Farmer. This free resource offers a step-by-step guide to planning a smooth, strategic transition over 24 months. With clear phases, actionable steps, and tips directly from Drake’s experience, this template is perfect for church leaders looking to make their next leadership handover stress-free and successful. Get your copy today and ensure a confident path forward for your church!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. Man, I am so looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those conversations that I know that there are leaders in the midst of this situation that we’re talking about, or on the brink of this situation that we’re talking about that are gonna lean in and get so much value out of this, not only because the leader that we’re having on today is is ah has living through this, is working through this, but he’s a repeat guest, which you know when we have repeat guests, that means I think they’re great.

Rich Birch — And so super excited to have Drake Farmer with us. ah Drake is at a church called Beulah Alliance Church. It’s a multi-site church with three locations as well as a Spanish campus in Alberta, Canada, was founded in 1907 in the growing city of Edmonton, has become a multi-ethnic and multi-generational church experienced rapid growth in these last few years. Drake sits in the seat of executive pastor of ministries. ah Plus, he’s also a friend. He’s a great guy. Super excited to have you on the show today, Drake. Thanks for being here.

Drake Farmer — Awesome, I’m happy to be here.

Rich Birch — Yeah, the other Canadian Drake. That’s what I like to say. You know, there’s there are two in Canada that that we know of. You’re one of them.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, but before nobody would ever get my name right when I introduced, but now, cause you know, Drake the rep.

Rich Birch — ah Just kidding. Oh, really? That’s hilarious.

Drake Farmer — Oh, Greg, Craig, Frank, I got truck once. That was a, yep, yep.

Rich Birch — That’s great. I love it. No, that’s that’s great. Well, yeah, that’s an upside for sure of of Drake. So why don’t you fill in the picture? Kind of tell us a little bit more about Beulah. Give us, you know, if people were to come this weekend, what would they experience? That sort of stuff.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, like you said, we’re a multi-site. We’ve got, what’s interesting is we’ve got, as you said, three locations, but four campuses. So there’s an English campus and a Spanish campus in one of our locations.

Drake Farmer — And so we’re in, our our vision statement is to awaken greater Edmonton to King Jesus. And so even even through COVID, even understanding, we have a ah quite a ah large online presence, but our focus isn’t to have necessarily an online campus because really, you know, and it’s been true of the church the last 103 years as Greater Edmonton, it’s kind of grown up with the city um in that sense. And so we’re really focused on that incarnational, how are you how is that, you know the you know, now the screen door is, you know, online church. And so being intentional there, but then wanting really to drive people in.

Drake Farmer — And so, um again, it would just it would depend a lot on the campus that you’re you’re at. So with with real estate and what you have and the buildings you can get, we would say, you know, we want to we want to have the experience, our values, our philosophy, our vision, the experience would be really much Beulah, but at the same time, it could be size and location. Edmonton is ah is a a hugely, diversely cultural um city. And so we have multigenerational multi multi-campus, multi-ethnic campuses across the board. um But the biggest thing is going to be if you come to our West Campus, which is running around 2,000 people or three services.

Drake Farmer — We’ve got a campus in there in the southwest part of our city that’s running about 600 people with two services and then all the way down to you know our our Spanish campus and our smaller campuses ranging from around the 50 to 100 or you know to the 200 mark with our Spanish and our English one there is our newest and we’re in the midst of long-term planning in the next couple of years launching our next campus. So.

Rich Birch — So good. Yeah, we, we, you might remember if you’ve the name Beulah is not a name you run into all the time in churches. It’s not like another, you know, whatever Northview, you know, Community Church or whatever.

Drake Farmer — Yep.

Rich Birch — And now I just made fun of way too many people who listen to our podcast. But ah you might remember we had Daniel Im on the the podcast. We had him on multiple times. And Daniel is the lead pastor. We’ll link to that episode. And the reason why so oftentimes, you know, I I go to a church and I’m like, I’d love to what’s going on, I’d love to hear… But actually, in this conversation, I’ve seen from afar what’s happened with ah yeah Daniel stepping in as the lead pastor, the kind of succession stuff that’s happened there. And I really wanted to get Drake’s kind of vantage point on this view on this as executive ah pastor, or senior leader in the organization, kind of get his perspective on that.

Rich Birch — This is an issue that I know is just, it’s incredibly important for so many of our churches. So talk us through kind of at a high level first, uh, what, what, tell, talk us through what has happened on the succession. What does that look like? And then we’ll get into what did you learn through that? What would you say some of your, your learnings for 30 years from now, when Daniel leaves, you can think next guys can pull out this one and and talk about what that looks like then. But yeah, let’s first tell us kind of describe the succession that has taken place there.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, totally. Oh, it’s interesting, like, even from my my vantage point was, in our in our greater Edmonton area, ah probably all the major, there was a lot of successions are happening right around the time, even before COVID. And especially some of our larger churches. And so it’s fascinating to see what was happening.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And then a lot of even taking the risk of going a little bit younger than what we expect, you know, the 30s mark and even some being 20. And I was just like, oh, this is so fascinating to watch. You know, I’m from an outsider’s perspective, and I wonder how it’s going to turn out.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — You know, and then I joke around that I’m like, Oh, yeah, now i’m I’m, I’m hitching my, you know, my my wagon to that being part of Beulah, you know, and even through COVID, what was what was what was crazy was, um you know there was a season there where in our and our district, in our denomination, in our province, there was 21 vacant lead pastor roles, just lead pastor roles.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Drake Farmer — And so there was this crisis, you know. And we’ve been talking about an aging demographic of lead pastors for a while now.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — But but you know the intentionality of going, oh, we’ll think about it eventually. And COVID hits, it expedites all of this stuff. And all of a sudden now, all these churches and our our district, our denomination is scrambling, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Drake Farmer — And so what what was a privilege, I would say, for me, um being walking into this, probably about a third or a quarter into the process I guess of this of, or at least I’m sorry not the process of there was much more intention which we’ll get into later. But of the third end of the process of of the actual overlap between our previous lead pastor, Keith Taylor and then our current Daniel Im um and being able to kind of watch that happen . And seeing the intentionality that there was that in that Keith brought that he started this process like six years I think before it was done or six years before Daniel came on. I can’t remember the exact number.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Drake Farmer — But he I think he even triggered this even though like we should think about this, like ten years before.

Rich Birch — Wow, wow.

Drake Farmer — You know and and always just kind of going, and eventually was like, alright guys, we need to seriously start looking at I know you don’t want you know they didn’t want him to. You know he you know those sort of things and I think this would be a really good kind of you know succinct way to put it of Keith’s heart. You know it’s my second week he’s taking out for lunch. um COVID hasn’t hit yet. So my claim to fame is I started here at Beulah, two weeks later COVID hits, and I become the COVID crisis manager.

Rich Birch — Wow. a Great time to start.

Drake Farmer — Yeah. COVID crisis manager for all of our campuses and we have to rethink ministry from the get-go.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — But yeah, so that hasn’t hit yet. Keith’s taking up for lunch and I just, I asked him, I say, Hey, Keith, you’ve easily got another 5 to 10 years. Like, like why now? Why are you, why are you thinking succession now? And he goes, cause I’m not thinking for this church. I’m not thinking about the next five to 10, I’m thinking in the next 30 plus. And the next 30 plus needs a new leader.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drake Farmer — um And it’s not that I couldn’t keep leading it. But if we if I’m doing it on the high and that kind of growth stage, this is the time to do it. And and and let’s be intentional about it instead of waiting until it’s needed, in a sense.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. One of the things, this struck me, I don’t know Keith that well, having a little bit of interaction with him, um you know, over the years. A great leader and, you know, incredible guy, obviously loves the Lord, has been there for 30 years so that, you know, he was, you know, had been obviously deeply loved in the community, loved in the church.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about, like one of the hallmarks, I think, of these successions. A lot of it does rest in the heart of the leaving or the departing pastor and their orientation towards this. Maybe talk to a a person that’s listening in today that so finds himself there like at some age where they’re like, I should start thinking about this. How how what how would you encourage them to be kind of cultivating their own inner life in these this moment…

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …even before they kind of flag it and say, okay, I think we need to start talking about this?

Drake Farmer — Yeah, I think I think part of it is just, I mean, I say this to any staff person to kind of alleviate when they feel like it’s time for them to step off the bus.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And they’re handing me that letter of resignation. And and they’re a little bit like conflicted about it, obviously, because it’s like, I’m feeling called out of it. But I don’t want to give this sense, like, I hate this place or something.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — And I’m just like and I have I had to learn too because I was like I don’t want to overreact emotionally or under-react, like oh you don’t care that I’m leaving.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — So says I just need you to understand like, hey I’m I’m super sad, like you’re you’re amazing that you’re stepping off the bus, but I don’t own you, like Jesus owns you. And then Jesus and and so if Jesus is moving the pieces across the board and is wanting you in a different location, then he has somebody for us. So I think and think the difference there is that you’re needing to be in that kind of almost like I’m I’m here now because I’ve been called here…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …um but always being ready, the sense of going at any point, right? I could be called out, and what we’ve seen so much over the years is, well, now that call’s there, so now I’m leaving, and then the church now needs to walk through that. um So I think more so than any other role as that as that voice, as that lead pastor, um is going, how do I prepare my church? I think I think the difficulty is um I mean there isn’t I mean, there is an employment risk in that to say, hey, I think i think it might be time and you’re you’re putting your neck out there. So so I can understand there’s there is a sense of like, what does that look like? um

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And so I I don’t want to assume and the um the unique dynamic. Because I said our story here at Beulah is going to be different than your story.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Drake Farmer — So I’ll i’ll just share it from this perspective to go what Keith did…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — …and why it worked well for us, but recognizing the dynamics that were there. He was a loved beloved leader that he had the trust and the relational credit with the board of the church and you know all of that stuff. And and ah and it did revolve around retirement which also helps.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — So to keep that in mind as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — um But yeah, so I mean, he was, I don’t know if it was GLS or maybe it was some other conference he was saying that he was at, and they were talking about succession. This is about 10 years before, and he’s like, oh, that’s, yeah, that’s a really important conversation. So he he kind of let the board know, hey, this came up, you know, I don’t have any plans, but at some point, we if we’re gonna do this, we should be intentional about it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And then it was ah the five to six year mark that he said, okay, guys, Well, guys and gals, we’re egalitarian, but um okay, team.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — ah to say, hey, we need to think about this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — We need we need to be intentional about this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — So let’s start praying. Let’s start discerning. Let’s start planning, you know. And a big part of that was, well, who who do we believe the next person is? And and what what is the prayerful discernment of that and then and then the plans of like what is the overlap and those different pieces. And so there was a lot of intentionality there and a very open posture of the sense of like it’s about the mission, it’s about Jesus…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …it’s about you know you know continuing to see the legacy. And when you’re and part of being a part of a church, and for some churches it might seem like 100 years is normal, um but in the west of Canada, 100 years is is very abnormal for for a church to have that legacy. 50, maybe 60, sure, but you know having that legacy in this area um definitely builds into that as well, that we’ve seen multiple pastors come.

Drake Farmer — And there are people in this church Church is 103 years old. We had somebody um who who recently um who passed away that was like 102 years old…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Drake Farmer — …and had been a part of that church the whole entire time.

Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.

Drake Farmer — So i like there’s some of these dynamics that you have these voices and trust and stuff.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, a big part of that posture and that thinking was, you know, it’s not about me and having that sense and praying into it and wondering when, you know, Jesus, let me know or let me think about it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — Or let me be prepared. Or, or maybe, maybe for you, it’s just, well, I, I got in a situation where we’re not in a situation that we could be as intentional as six years. But do you have a plan in place to say, Hey, let’s think about that now so that when the call comes that we can enact because we’ve thought through it and we’re not scrambling. Maybe it’s as simple as that.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Right. Yeah. That’s great. I’d love to hear about the kind of intentional plan. You know, there’s, there was this overlap. I’d love to, you know, pick apart what that looked like. And, um, you know, kind of set that up for us, help us understand what that kind of intentional, those intentional steps look like.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, and what’s interesting is like, for Daniel, when Keith approached Daniel, he said, would you consider putting your name forward and be a part of this process? There was two main candidates that they had kind of fought through and reached out to to consider. And Daniel wanted, and he was at Lifeway, he was at Nashville. I mean, like he legit just got his green card and then was back to Canada.

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Drake Farmer — right like So it’s just like, oh, we were we were there planning the roots deep, they weren’t looking. um And one of the things for Daniel was because there was an intentional overlap, if that wasn’t there, he would have said no.

Drake Farmer — Now I know another contexts, having that intentional overlap may not be helpful. I know of other, I could share stories of churches I’ve spoken with and and walked with as well um that because of that but it was because of the attitude or or the posture…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …maybe of the of the exiting pastor where it didn’t allow for that, where there needed you almost need to have like ah a season where there’s like a reprieve or like a gap. But because of Keith’s posture because of how how he saw and how he spoke about publicly and how Daniel spoke of Keith. And there was a big part, what was interesting, was it was so fascinating. I would get these text messages from, you know, people from churches across, you know, the nation and internet, you know, North America as well. But I just knew there were, kind like you said, we’re looking and outside looking in and we’re going, man, is it, is it actually going as well as it looks?

Rich Birch — Sure, sure.

Drake Farmer — And I was like, and I could say, actually, yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.

Drake Farmer — You know, being able to sit in the you know as an exec team and and senior leadership team, was it perfect? Were there never any tensions, and especially going through COVID? Of course not. You know, and and I know that there were conversations, because at that point, you know, Daniel was reporting to Keith, this wasn’t a, like, dual leading thing.

Rich Birch — Yep. Right.

Drake Farmer — It was I’m bringing you in, and then helping you move that forward. And so there were reporting systems there, Keith was still our lead. He was leading. And I’m sure there were probably some, you know, some good, healthy, you know, conflict type conversations behind closed doors. But when it came to in front of the staff, when it came to at the congregation, it was all just, you know, how they spoke of each other was huge.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And then another part that was a big part was there was an intentional plan of knowing what pieces in this lead pastor job description would be passed over, you know. And and in what part through those two years at the at the one mark mark, you know the three month, at six month, at the nine month, at the one year, they are very strategic about the different pieces that way they would hand over.

Drake Farmer — And and it was interesting. So when covid and covid happened and covid hit. We had to go online, 100%. And I think there was the the strategy side piece of the church. I think it was still at least another three or maybe six months—I don’t know what the exact timeline was—that was still supposed to be firmly in Keith’s you know purview. But he said, at his age, and he was looking, moving online, he goes, I’m the least informed person. And Daniel’s way better equipped to help us as a church right now strategically to as a lead side of things to be able to lead us through that. And so he said, Daniel, I need to hand this over to you sooner. And here’s why.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah.

Drake Farmer — So it was Keith that was driving some of that stuff and recognizing the benefit. And so he was driving that posture. He, you know, same thing. He said, Daniel, it’s like, if there’s some hard decisions that we need to make as a church, be it who’s on the bus, or who you want to bring on the bus, or change a vision or values, let’s do that now, so that i can you can lend my voice or I can echo in that. Right?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drake Farmer — And so there was a lot of reframing of going, what is our vision? What is our values? And what was amazing when when we un we did our values and did a message series on it, the message series was called Unchanging. Because it was like, these have been the values…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Drake Farmer — …of Beulah for the last 103 years and they’re they’re they’re the same. They’re just packaged differently.

Rich Birch — Yeah. And maybe different words, but yeah.

Drake Farmer — And and and Daniel did that and Keith was a part of that message series, even though he had already retired. And even now, we’re going into a capital campaign in or in sort actually we’re in the middle of one in this in this month, and Keith is a part of that because of the voice and the weight that he has in that.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great. Yeah, he’s got, yeah, he’s good yeah. That’s good.

Drake Farmer — And you know, but even now, like it was so fascinating, even after the fact, where Keith you know, he was going, okay, I’m retired now, but he still attends Beulah and he’s still a part of this church. And people still view him as their pastor, which is totally cool. And he was like, how do I how do I have a posture of supporting Daniel? So at first he was sitting up front to show, I’m for him, I’m for him. And then he started realizing people were watching how he would react. And he was like, no, no. So now he sits in the back.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right, right, right, right.

Drake Farmer — It was just like, okay, if this, because if it if it if it impacts mission, if it impacts our reaching people…

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.

Drake Farmer — …and stuff, he’s like, not going to do it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — It’s not about me.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — You know it’s about the church and it’s about Jesus and it’s about the mission. And a big part of that is how do we set up you know Daniel. So that was really his posture. And Daniel reciprocated in the same way of how he respected him and how he he honored, you know even in the baton pass and everything. So yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s even that intentionality of like sitting up front. You know, I’ve said I like that he’s at least started there. That’s an interesting, um even tactic. I’ve said that to teaching pastors in the past when we’re trying to have, you know, somebody who on that or join the teaching team.

Rich Birch — It’s like I’ve said to them, I’m like, I need you to sit down front when they’re here. Don’t take that weekend off.

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Please show up and you know, open your notebook, take notes.

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know because that and people do pick up on that, right?

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — They do pick up on that, you know, subtle cue. I get why he doesn’t I understand the like hey, I don’t want to be the other people are looking at all the time. I get that.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, yeah. And, and, and that would have been the posture.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — I mean, and that’s how Daniel leads too.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — He’s upfront worshiping, he’s upfront and part of those things too. And, and, but it just had the unexpected negative consequence with some people.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Drake Farmer —And he said, well, we’re going to do what makes the most sense.

Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about, when you say Daniel started as he was intentionally, so when he joined the team, it was known publicly: Hey, he, this is the guy who’s going to be the successor. Was the timeline known?

Drake Farmer — No.

Rich Birch — Talk us about what…

Drake Farmer — We we joke around.

Rich Birch — And, and, and, you know, pull pull apart what was in his head, what was in Keith’s head, what was in the team’s head, the community’s head, all that.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, if I were to have any question, if I were to go back and ask, would we do something differently? The one thing that was like…

Drake Farmer — So they hired Daniel functionally and you know as a title, which is just a different version of my role, which was kind of fascinating. So he had the title of my predecessor, Senior Associate. And that’s where he was hired as. And then as at the congregational level, they were like, oh, Daniel. Like Daniel used to be on staff at Beulah before he went to Lifeway.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — And he was in Adult Ministry. And so like, oh, Daniel’s back, and he’s our Senior Associate Pastor. But there was no like right up their get-go…

Rich Birch — Yeah. Context or whatever.

Drake Farmer — But so was it was fascinating at the congregational level, I don’t know if they fully understood that, but at the staff, and there was some conversation there. But even at the denominational level, we just joked around, it was like the worst kept secret that was coming back.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Drake Farmer — Right. So and I, you know, and it’s one of those hard things to go. Well, it’d be hard to know if you were to do it differently, you know, would that get the results? Because a lot of these things are, you’re throwing a dart and you’re you’re taking the best out of the information you have and you have to make a decision where you’re gonna go.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — So yeah, there wasn’t this there wasn’t this very public, that and again, there was a very clear you know we’re going to start with this. We’re going to get used to them again. You know the staff level, they understand it. He gets more of that strategy thing, the staff development, and you know those pieces. And at some point, as things are going, then they’re going to announce it. So that because that two-year mark of, I think this is probably where the wisdom comes in. If you announce it from the get-go, hey, here’s my successor, and then it’s two years…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — …like it’s like mourning somebody dying, but they haven’t passed yet.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for a long time. Yep.

Drake Farmer — And I thought, obviously, Keith died, because that’s a…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — …very morbid way to look at it.

Rich Birch — No, no. Yes, yes.

Drake Farmer — But it’s there’s this sense of like, oh, you’re in this weird space.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — And when do you strategically invite your staff, when do you strategically invite, you know, key leaders, when do you strategically invite, you know, the congregation into knowing that, so there’s enough runway, um but not so much that you’re just like, so what does this mean? And you know, and then yeah, this, this, sense. And I mean, for us, it was it was interesting because obviously with COVID, it it and both made things very difficult.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — Everything was difficult. um

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And it was it was it was, I think, hardest on Keith because he’s such an extrovert and such, you know, very pastoral where some of his, we had to do some stuff after his succession because, you know, he did, we did a succession baton pass with nobody in the room at the time. And to serve him we got people to send in pictures and we do these cardboard cutouts and put them in the seats and stuff so we could see the faces of the people that he’s been pastoring for 30 years.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s hard. That’s a hard season.

Drake Farmer — But he couldn’t he couldn’t say like eyeball to eyeball so we got to do that later. But some of that was difficult. But some of that too was like I think people were just like you know Beulah’s always been great, we’ve always trusted them. Why is this any different?

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And right now, I’m just trying to figure out how to live my life. And so there’s a couple of town hall meetings that I was leading with, I was going to be interviewing the two of them. And and it’s all on Zoom, right? So then maybe that was pretty…

Rich Birch — Part of it.

Drake Farmer — But it’s like a church of 3,000 plus people and six people show up.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Drake Farmer — And then you do a second one and six people show up. And I remember saying to both of them, this is either a really good sign, or not.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Drake Farmer — And I don’t know which one, right? Like, you know, and, and it turned out to be…

Rich Birch — Well, I think there’s something…

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — There’s an interesting principle there where I think our, like this stuff is really important to us.

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And, you know, that, that I would take that as the, like, yeah, the people trust the leadership at the church…

Drake Farmer — Yep.

Rich Birch — …and are like behind you, but yeah, there is some of this where it’s like, and but and that was obviously an extreme season for that, where it was like…

Drake Farmer — Yep. For sure.

Rich Birch — …yeah, I got enough fish to fry in my own world. Like, you know, I, you know, we we want to walk through that. I’m interested in that. But like at the end of the day, just tell me when it’s done and we’ll be great.

Rich Birch — You know, kind of thing ah this idea of kind of um the the typical lead pastor’s role being carved up, and, you know, um hey, so this is this is Keith’s up until this point. And then it gets handed off to Daniel.

Drake Farmer — Yeah.

Rich Birch — All of that. Was there any part of that looking back on that process uh, that you would say, Oh, that, that was either like a transferable lesson we should pass on or like, is there something that people that are listening in should think about when they’re thinking about how to kind of carve up the role? Are there any kind of advice you’d pass on to that? I think cause I think that’s an interesting way to to process it.

Drake Farmer — Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing, because, without getting into the specific of details…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — …because I would want to be real careful that you don’t go…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — …oh, this is how Beulah did, so this is how I’m going to do it.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — I think you need to look through what are some of the big mantle pieces that if we don’t figure out who’s leading what and when—things like you know preaching.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And it was like basically during that season nobody else preached on our you know…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …our main stage in broadcasting other than a few exceptions because they need, we needed to hear from both. Like that was very strategic.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And when you’re looking at the HR side of things, who’s leading our senior leadership and exec team…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — …you know like at what point does that turn over the strategy for ministry, you know and and the in the the pieces of that. And yeah the part that I’m not doing I obviously isn’t exact, but the the part that the lead is giving vision and understanding of like, here’s the lens that we see everything through. Those those different pieces, the the staffing and culture pieces and stuff like that. You know, who’s owning the staff, all staff meetings. And and and re-thinking through org charts and who’s reporting to who and you know and how you want your team to be you know managed.

Drake Farmer — So it’s like there are some of these pieces and going, and then it’s I think it’s laying that out. And a lot of it, and like that was done before Daniel showed up. That was the board.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And Keith that walked through that so that when he was invited into it, this is the plan as we’re going to walk things out.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And and a big part of it too is because Daniel’s coming into the posture to go like, yeah, I’m not Keith.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — And I recognize I’m not i’m not trying to just learn to to be mini Keith because that wouldn’t have served anything. But at the same time, there’s so much I can learn from Keith. So how do I in these two years not only are we figuring how to co-lead…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …and how do we pass things off, but it’s good to do that because then I get to I get to sit walking into it and not just getting everything at once…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …I have all this relational credit that Keith has. I have all this leadership experience that I get to pull from. And I get to get piece by piece by piece kind of handed to me and then continue getting coaching. And then Keith giving him the freedom to go here’s my advice but recognizing…

Rich Birch — That’s your thing.

Drake Farmer — …you got to lead and you’ve got to walk out the consequences of your decision. So you always had this posture… And there’ll be some things that you know, yeah like I said, you would have good healthy dialogue because it’s different convictions and understanding in that. I think the one thing I think ah that we kept trying to right size, because at the congregational level, you know, I think for the most part, that came clear. There was good people. They knew Keith was honored. They knew that they knew that, you know, because it was around retirement, that there was the right steps to honor him, both on stage and off stage.

Drake Farmer — And, you know, did a thing in the parking lot where every person can come and he could shake hands and stuff like that. um People felt like, OK, and you he wasn’t leaving. Right.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Drake Farmer — And because of the healthy relationship…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — …obviously, sometimes that doesn’t work. But because of that, you know, they get to still see Keith. He’s still is doing funerals. He’s still, you know…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — …like um less obviously, for a lot of different reasons. Drake Farmer — And then, but for us, I think the biggest thing was for the staff, it was like, what does this mean? and And I think part of it too is even just making it clear that’s…

Drake Farmer — I remember chatting with one of our teams and they were struggling with something and they said, it just feels like the succession is just the most important thing. And I looked at him, I said, yeah, because it is. And they’re like, what? I said, I get it. Like boots on the ground, ministry is important. But and and we wouldn’t want to pause all that stuff.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — And we’ve got to figure out the tension of doing both these things. But if we don’t do succession right…

Rich Birch — Yeah, stakes are huge for sure.

Drake Farmer — …then there might not be a ministry for you to run.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Drake Farmer — Or you might not have a, like I hate to say, you might not have a job, because there’s not enough payroll because the people left and the giving went down.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer — And you hope and you hope that people don’t do that. But we’ve seen examples where done wrong, I mean, the church can implode there, you know, they can’t bounce back. There could be church splits because of unhealth and all that stuff. So it’s like, yeah, this is really, really important because it trickles all down from that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — Now is everything about the lead? No, it shouldn’t be that. and we’re seeing the opposite it is a new personality driven thing…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — But still, like if this isn’t done well…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drake Farmer —And you know and for us, it was like a joke around because we… And this was actually helpful for our staff, you know where our strategic ends. We don’t have attendance as one of our strategic… We still track attendance, obviously, for loads of reasons. But as our one of our main priorities isn’t there. But during COVID, it was you know our strategic end stretch goal is a negative 15% in attendance in this next year and the first part of the succession.

Drake Farmer — And part of it was like, well, you know with succession, that’s about what you’re supposed to expect, 15% drop at least…

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Drake Farmer — …and you hope if your strategy will bounce back. But you add succession and COVID into the mix.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drake Farmer — We joke around the big great shuffle of everybody switching churches, depending on where people landed on stuff.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yep.

Drake Farmer — So we’re like, yeah, it’s a stretch goal because let’s not go to negative 30%.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Drake Farmer — But it also communicated to go, in this season, it’s not just all about up and to the right.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drake Farmer — The season for right now is recognizing it isn’t just go, go, go.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep.

Drake Farmer — Now, we don’t ignore opportunities and the movement of you know Jesus and to evangelize and to disciple, but hey, in this season, as you think about growth stages of any organization, it’s normal when they when they’re doing the flow to go up to the next stage, there will be a dip and to not freak out.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Drake Farmer — It’s okay.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Drake Farmer — But a lot of it too