Sharing the Mental Load in Marriage and its Positive Correlation to Enjoying Great Sex: Interview with Dr. Morgan Cutlip (Episode 283)
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Show Notes
*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
Hebrews 12:15 NLT “Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.”
*Transcription Below*
About Dr. Morgan Cutlip:
It's hard to know where to start so I'll start with what matters most to me and that's my relationships.
I'm a mother to two kids, Effie (12) and Roy (9). They are hilarious, spirited, spicy, deeply thoughtful and emotional kids. I adore them and being their mother. They've challenged me in the most surprising and wonderful ways. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, Chad. I always feel like I lose a little street cred when I say that so, for the record, we didn't date that entire time and eventually reconnected years after college on MySpace (yup, now I've aged myself). He's the love of my life, an incredible man that loves others deeply, works so very hard, and continues to be open to growth and change.
I’ve worked in the field of relationship education for over 15 years alongside my father, Dr. John Van Epp, who is the founder of Love Thinks and developer of multiple relationship education courses that have been taught to over a million people worldwide. I started traveling to conferences with him when I was in junior high and so, in many ways, it feels like I’ve grown up in the relationship education field. He’s amazing and brilliant and I’m blessed to have learned so much from him over the years we worked together and just cherish our relationship.
I distinctly remember a conversation with my dad over 20 years ago where I said that someday I wanted to support women, but I just wasn’t sure how.
Fast forward 10 years and Effie (our oldest) was born and, holy moly, did motherhood hit me like a ton of bricks and I completely lost myself in motherhood (you can read the full story in my book). 🙂 I knew that one day when I came out of the fog of early motherhood I wanted to do something to help moms navigate it better.
I had a lot of skill and practice translating psychological theory, research, and concepts into tangible and practical advice so I got to work creating accessible content to help moms navigate their relationship with their kids, partners, and themselves differently.
Through my career, I created the My Love Thinks blog, the @DrMorganCutlip Instagram, the Love Thinks Podcast, and The Mother Load course along with other courses, workshops, and targeted eGuides and authored the book Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself: 5 Steps to Banish Guilt & Beat Burnout When You Already Have Too Much to Do. These tools have been accessed by hundreds of thousands of women worldwide.
Dr. Morgan’s Website
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Francie Hinrichsen, Founder of Founding Females and Author of Dream, Build, Grow
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
7 Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
269 Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston
Other Podcast Mentioned:
132. Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen
Related Article from Savvy Snacks:
Marriage Scripture I am Loving
Topics and Questions We Discuss:
- Will you define mental load and walk us through the reasons why it’s silently crushing marriages today…and will you also explain why universally, mothers are the ones impacted the most?
- What’s the correlation between sharing the mental load and enjoying a more exhilarating sex life in marriage?
- What’s the vision you can cast for us if we put systems in place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage, even if it feels cumbersome at first?
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 - 0:10)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:06) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
If you are looking to start a business or side hustle, but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.
First of all, I want to wish a very happy birthday to my amazing husband, Mark. I hope it's an awesome day, and thank you, babe, for leading this part of our marriage so well. I love you so much and hope it's a great day.
Today, I get to interview Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and she's a relationship expert and an author. And this second book that she released is entitled A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, and Great Sex. We're going to dive into each of those subcategories, and this chat is amazing for both husbands and wives.
And I think it's going to leave you with motivation and ideas rather than any shame or resentment. So especially if you're parents, I hope you listen in. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Morgan.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (1:54 – 1:56) Thank you so much for having me.
Laura Dugger: (1:57 – 2:06) I'd love to just start here, because you're a relationship expert. What does your daily life in work actually look like?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (2:07 - 3:07) Oh, my God. No one has ever asked me this. Okay, so we have two kids.
I'm married, been married for 17 years. We just celebrated our anniversary, and we have two kids, 12 and 9, and we do a homeschool hybrid. So, my work life, it might look like I work a lot, but it's usually cramming it into weird times.
But they go to an academy or a school with other homeschool families three days a week. So, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the days that I try to do all of the things and get all of my work done. And then Mondays and Fridays, I am with the kids.
And then my husband travels just about every week for work. So, a lot of times I'm sort of just cruising solo and outsourcing as much as I can handle and can afford and feel okay about and just trying to squeeze as much out of my time and my energy that I can.
Laura Dugger: (3:08 - 3:14) I love it, and I'm relating. I'm a homeschooling mom as well, so fitting it all in when you can.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:15 – 3:16) Yes, yes.
Laura Dugger: (3:17 – 3:22) And then those days that you are working or doing writing or different things, what does your work life look like?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (3:23 - 4:06) Yeah, so usually, you know, right now I just finished launching my second book. So, I'm really trying to move a little slower, take a little break. I launched two books in three years, wrote them and launched them.
And so, it felt like a really just an extended season of just constant time famine and busyness. So right now, my work life is doing interviews like this. I'm working on developing some new courses.
I've developed two so far. I'm working on another one right now, launching those, creating some content, doing workshops. I'm speaking at a conference this weekend.
So, it varies every single week what my work life looks like.
Laura Dugger: (4:06 - 4:32) Very real picture. And I loved in your last book just how you define mental load. So, can you give us a definition of mental load and walk us through the reasons why it seems to be silently crushing marriages today and why it is that universally mothers are typically the ones who suffer the most?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (4:33 - 8:23) Yeah, so I'm just going to give if we need to go into a deeper definition, I will as we're chatting. So, I'm just going to give the 30,000-foot definition and then answer your other questions. So, the mental load is the seemingly never-ending running to do list that we carry around in our minds.
It has two key components. The first is that the majority of tasks in the mental load are invisible. The invisibility of these tasks makes it really hard to explain to our partners to get appreciation around for it even to be seen by members of our family and to outsource.
The second aspect is that the mental load takes up cognitive real estate. So, this just means that it takes up space in our brains that tends to crowd out energy and space that we need for other things like patients, like being present, remembering things. You know, a lot of us will say, oh, I have mom brain, you don't know, I put my keys.
Well, a lot of times it's because we have so much of our brain space occupied by other things. We're sort of become a bit more forgetful. It can crowd out space for creative energy and in relationships, it can crowd out the space to really find our desire around our sexual life.
So, the mental load is interesting because it's talked about on social media as a women's issue. But everybody has a mental load. This is not something that is unique to women.
Where it is unique to women is that in home and family life, the majority of tasks associated with the mental load is carried by women. And so even though women are working in massive amounts outside of the home or inside of the home or have side hustles or full-time jobs, we're still doing the majority of the labor involved in the mental load. And so, what happens in our relationships is that it starts to develop into a feeling of unfairness.
A lot of times the women tend to start to feel very overwhelmed. And then this unfairness starts to breed resentment. And one of the most common cycles that I see happening in relationships is that usually really kicks in after kids.
So mental load exists before kids, after kids, it gets real big, really fast. And it's that the woman will feel like her life has shifted in a pretty significant and just like palpable way. While her partners has sort of stayed relatively the same, even though that's not entirely true, but it feels that way.
And eventually she'll reach a place where she kind of gets, you know, depending on how comfortable she feels sharing what's going on with her. She gets overwhelmed. She approaches her partner.
Her partner doesn't fully understand it. Some of the most common and unfortunate responses are getting defensive around it. You know, I do a lot too.
You're saying I don't do enough. It's never enough for you. Minimizing it or the sort of hardship Olympics where the two people start competing around who's doing more.
And so over time she learns that she can't talk about this with her partner without going through all of that rigmarole. And so, she either starts to get louder, which shifts their marital dynamic in a really significant way because she becomes the nagging mother and he's the child she's sort of chasing after. Or she shoves it down and distance and disconnection really starts to take root.
And it's unfortunate because a lot of times, even though she's come to him, he still doesn't quite maybe understand what's going on. And so, both partners start to really disconnect. And it becomes, once you get years down the line, it can become hard to understand where this disconnection really originated from.
I think I'm missing a question in there, but I'm going to pause.
Laura Dugger: (8:24 - 8:34) No, you actually conquered all of those. Why it is that mothers have it and what the definition is and why it's silently crushing marriages.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (8:34 - 12:18) Yeah, I'm happy to go into a little bit why women tend to carry it because I think it's really important to understand how this happens. I have a really strong belief that when it comes to this area of our relationships, we really need to come at it with a goal of understanding each other's perspectives, how these things developed, how we got to where we are. So that we can sort of depersonalize some of the patterns that have developed in our relationship and actually then confront them as a team.
So, part of the reason women tend to carry the mental load, there's several, I'll just cover a couple. But one is the socialization of women and just our society, which is that women are socialized to self-sacrifice for the preservation of our relationships. Men are socialized to provide financial and physical security.
So, what this means is that we enter into our relationships once they're committed and then parenthood with different set of priorities. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is what tends to happen.
And also, society holds us to standards around these different priorities. So, I remember not that long ago, our son was going to an event at school in the evening and it was cold and it was raining. And I was like, grab your coat.
And he kept arguing with me and he finally said, “Mom, I'm not going to wear it. So, then I'll probably lose it, which then you'll be upset with me for losing it. And I'm not wearing it anyway.”
And so, I was like, thanks for having some insight into yourself. But you know, the moms are going to see you freezing your butt off in the rain and they'll be like, why didn't his mom give him a coat? They're not asking why his dad didn't.
So, we're held to different standards around different areas. And so, we hold ourselves to these different sets of expectations around home and family life, how the kids are cared for, how the home's maintained. It's usually where women tend to focus, whereas men are like, I got to provide, you know, all these things.
And so that I say the game is rigged. That sets us up to really focus on different areas of our relationship. The second thing that I think happens is that because women are this way and there's also physiological component, but I want to talk about that piece, but because women are socialized this way, we tend to do things in our relationships way back when, even in dating, out of love and out of care for our partners.
And the first time we do it, usually our partner is really grateful. “You're the best. What would I do without you? You're awesome.” And it feels good to give, which is wonderful. It's a beautiful thing.
The second time we do it, they're like, “Gee, thanks.” The third time they're not even recognizing it. It's invisible.
We have taken it on, and it has become removed from our partner's awareness. And now we own it. We do this, especially before kids, over and over and over again in our relationships.
We take something on. There's no discussion. There's no negotiation.
And so, our plates pile up pretty full. I often refer to women as the bounty quicker picker uppers. We're super absorbent.
So, we get really saturated by soaking all these things up. And then kids enter the picture. And overnight, the amount of responsibilities grow exponentially.
And then we reach a point where we're like, we can't do all this. How come you don't see all these things that need done when we've been doing it all these years? And it's not placing blame.
It's just pointing out a pattern that's pretty benign, pretty typical that we have to learn how to walk back in our relationships.
Laura Dugger: (12:19 - 13:05) It's so good. And as we're learning how to walk back in our relationships and navigate this, I love how you define kind of a vision for us on page five, where you talk about how you help couples to experience, I'll quote you, “greater feelings of love, attraction, trust, commitment, reliability, and usually a way more exhilarating sex life. All from simply handling this mental load in a way that works for both of them.”
So, Dr. Morgan, can you give some examples and share how we can do this in marriage, kind of moving to some of the solutions once we've identified this problem?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (13:07 - 15:52) Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to unpack around the solutions. So, I'll give a big picture one and then I'm happy to give like a really practical one. But one of the biggest is that couples have to learn how to talk about this area of their relationship without it spiraling into any sort of argument.
And the reason is, is because the mental is not going anywhere. You know, we keep trying to like solve it. This is one small example of how we handle everything in society.
It seems like we're trying to find that permanent fix. But the reality is, is that life changes every single day. New demands are thrown on our plates; curve balls come our way.
And so, it changes the demand and the intensity of the mental load. And so, if we're in a relationship, we have to be able to regularly touch base about these things and negotiate who's handling what. We have to be able to do that in a way that feels like we're in it together.
And so, one of the perspectives that I have that's maybe a little bit different than what's out there currently on this topic is that we have to approach the mental load as the shared enemy in our relationship. So, you externalize that. So, if you're going to talk to your partner, instead of saying something along the lines of like, you really need to step it up.
You're not doing enough. You don't, don't you see what needs done? I really need you to help more.
I'm, I'm drowning over here. Like, what's, what are you doing? I'm doing all these things.
It is a much more productive conversation. If we come to the table and we say, listen, as you notice, I have kind of an intensity about me. I'm stressed out a lot.
I'm overwhelmed. I don't like to live this way. I'm sure I'm not as much fun to be around.
And part of what's going on with me is something that has a name and it's called the mental load. And it is just relentless for modern families today. The amount of pressure to be productive, the amount of responsibilities on our plates, it is never ending.
And I know you feel this too, but the way that we're handling it right now in our relationship is it's not really working for me. I'm feeling so bogged down that I don't feel like I can show up as my best self in our relationship and in our family. And I want to talk about how we as a team can navigate this aspect of our lives differently.
Like, are you willing to have that conversation? And I think that approach can help to diffuse. I mean, it might not be as satisfying if you're in a place of being really angry about this.
And a lot of people are. And it's totally understandable. But that will often diffuse a lot of the defensiveness that could potentially arise in this conversation and help the conversation get to a better place.
Laura Dugger: (15:53 - 16:20) Oh, that's good. And can you share a story, even a personal one that I've heard you mention before, related to one time when you were anticipating a date night only to get this truth bomb dropped on you? I'm asking this in part because elaborating from that quote, it ties into that correlation between mental load and exhilarating sex life for males.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (16:20 - 20:25) Yes. Now, I'm like, did I talk about this in the book? I can't remember.
I've talked about this before, though. Yeah. So, this is funny.
I shared this actually at a conference and my dad spoke at the conference. He was in the audience and had to listen to this story. And he's like, wow, you're comfortable sharing.
Like, I guess I am. OK, so my husband and I, this was several years ago, but we're sort of in that season where it was really hard to get out for a date night. And he something I'd wanted for a long time was him to initiate one.
So, he initiated the date night. I was really excited. We go to this nice restaurant.
He sits me down and he says something along the lines of, you know, I have to talk to you about something. And my husband's a man of few words. So, and I like to obviously, like, talk about a lot of things and talk a lot and unpack stuff and analyze it.
And so, when he said that, I immediately was excited. I was like, ooh, you know what he got for me? Let's go.
Like, let's have this conversation. And it was not what I expected. But what he said to me was, I'm not that happy with our sex life.
And, you know, in our relationship and I think about, you know, all of the things that I've learned and I've studied. And I know how important sex is to marriage and to my husband specifically. And I have a lower desire than he does.
And so, I keep track. I keep track of how often we have sex because I want to make sure that we're like hitting the target. And so, I remember like I was like really working hard overtime to sort of squash my defensiveness in this moment.
And I said, you know, I, I got to tell you, I feel like we're kind of having a lot of sex. And, you know, I've grown women talk. I know how much we're having.
And he's like, you know, it's not that it isn't good. And it's not that it's not enough. It's that it just doesn't always seem like you want me.
And so it was, it was like, it's kind of make light of it. But I'm like, it's an enthusiasm issue. Like he wanted more enthusiasm from me, and which is understandable.
And so, this, you know, conversation didn't end over dinner, kind of carried on through the rest of the night. It was not; it was not my favorite date night. You know, it wasn't the most enjoyable.
And we kind of unpacked it and we sort of; it was one of those conversations that we had to come back to a couple times. And I had to self-reflect on, you know, what is going on with my enthusiasm? Because I enjoy having sex with my husband, but there's truth to what he's saying.
And I really was honest with myself. Yeah, I'm like checking a box. You know, I'm keeping track.
And part of the conversation that was had was, and it's not meant to be tip for tap, but it was more like this is an insight I'm having, which is that I am not feeling as if you are showing much enthusiasm in our relationship around pursuing me. And in our home and family life around pursuing initiative taking, expressing appreciation. I'm not feeling good about our relationship outside the bedroom.
And so, our relationship inside the bedroom is not something that's exciting me. And we both had to step into that work. And he did in a major way.
And so, did I. And, you know, our sex life is not separate from our relationship as a whole. And I think it's really important that people understand that because a relationship that's suffering inside the bedroom will pour out outside the bedroom like it was for my husband and vice versa.
So, yeah.
Laura Dugger: (20:25 - 23:32) Thank you so much for being open about that. I'm first of all just wondering how many people think, wow, she just articulated something true in our marriage or for husbands to unlock that connection between the emotional or relational part of the marriage and intimate part.
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I love even how you describe that was maybe a little bit cumbersome at first to have to both of you do your work.
It paid off in the end. So, can you just kind of vision cast for us what it would look like if we put some healthy systems into place to habitually converse about mental load in marriage?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (23:33 - 26:14) Yeah, so one of the biggest takeaways of my book in terms of a new system is to have a regular check-in around the mental load. And the benefits to doing this just are like expansive. But one of the main things is that because the mental load is always changing, it's helpful to have a regular check-in so you can just kind of turn the dials, make the adjustments.
You know, this is a busy week for me. This is where I need a bit of support. How are you doing?
And check in and make those changes as necessary. It's also helpful, like some of the peripheral benefits, because sometimes people need convincing, even though this is not new advice to have a marriage check-in. It's been around a long time, but people still resist doing this.
So, some of the side benefits. One is that a lot of times women are the ones who are managing the relationship. We're the ones who are like, hey, I think we need a date night.
I think we need to talk about this. I want it. We never finish that argument.
You know, we're the ones kind of running the show around that stuff. And that becomes part of our mental load and also can start to feel as if we don't have a partner who cares as much about the relationship as we do. And so, when you have a scheduled time to talk about this stuff, it shares part of that responsibility.
So right away, you're sharing some of the emotional labor of the home and family life. The other thing is that women often have a lot of anxiety around the things that we're carrying in our minds that we need to talk to our partners. But we're not sure when is the good time.
So, a lot of times what happens is that we'll just kind of like eke it out through the week. Like, oh, by the way, like you got to pick Roy up from baseball here and Effie needs this. And I've been wondering about this.
And it becomes this sort of barrage of things are going on in our head that we need to talk about with our partner. But it's just like spread out. It's not consolidated.
So, a lot of times the women carry the anxiety around when this is going to happen and if our partners really got a hold of it. And our partners a lot of times find it like nagging. And then we might feel like a nag, and it doesn't really feel good to either person.
And so, when you can anticipate having an opportunity to address all of those things, it can help you move through your week with a lesser amount of anxiety. And also, can reduce that sort of dynamic that starts to feel either like nagging or almost like the mother-child dynamic, which also does nothing for your sex life. So, there's lots more benefits.
But those are a couple that are really important.
Laura Dugger: (26:15 - 26:27) It's so good. And what can that conversation look like? And maybe do you have any stories of couples who have done this with how they set that up or what that actually looks like in their week?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (26:27 - 28:23) Yeah. So, in my book, I give an agenda so you can literally just print it out. You can get a QR code to a PDF to print it out and you can follow along.
You can come up with your own, but it needs a couple of components you want to keep consistent that you want to keep the meeting relatively short. If it goes too long, it gets sometimes into, you know, you didn't do this and now you're like into a negative dynamic and you want it to really stay contained to being a bit more logistical. And then we'll talk about the other components.
You also want it to go well so that you'll do it again. And it becomes a natural pattern in the relationships. You want to keep it short.
You want to really, you know, you can keep it very simple. How did we do last week? Where did you need me?
And when I wasn't there, like, was there a time you needed me to do something different? So, you can both sort of anticipate that we're going to get a little bit of corrective feedback and we can start to normalize that. Looking toward the next week, what are some things I need to be aware of?
What are some areas where you might need some more support? So, you can basically keep it as simple as that. You always end the meeting with an expression of affection and appreciation and then schedule your next meeting.
That's like the bare bones sort of touch base. And I find that as you know, when I've spoken with couples who do this, I mean, number one, they're all I mean, if couples are doing it, bottom line, it's helpful. Like, oh, my gosh, we actually addressed all of these things that normally we'd just be holding on to getting frustrated about.
We handled the week ahead much better. So, it's always a positive experience. And but the more you do it, the more automatic it will become and the more natural it will become over time, unless you'll need an agenda or any sort of, you know, template for those meetings.
Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 29:11) Yes, I echo it. Such a game changer. Just we just call it planning the week.
But sitting down and looking at the next week, I just wonder how you would function in a family without knowing that because it takes out the questionable expectations or the silent things that we're holding on to and just makes that covert overt, which is healthier in marriage. But then I guess it's sometimes easier to see something through its opposite. So, walk us through what it would look like if couples refuse to do this and choose to neglect these conversations and don't check in with each other as it relates to the mental load and shared partnership tasks.
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (29:13 - 32:06) Yeah, I think a lot of couples are here and there's different degrees of severity that it can affect your relationship. And some people are better at just kind of like letting things go and functioning with a little bit of baseline frustration or rationalizing it and others are not. So, there's a lot of variables here.
But what often happens is usually it's the woman who feels the overwhelm and the stress and she'll come to her partner and try to talk about that. And it usually in the worst-case scenarios doesn't go well or even in great. You know, the first time I talked about it with my husband, it didn't go well.
So, it happens. And so, partners start to at that point. So, let's say she gets louder.
So, I've tried to talk about it. He's not getting it. I'm going to get louder.
I'm going to get a little angry. So, she's going to start kind of making side comments. Potentially, you know, don't you see that?
I guess I'm going to handle this again. Guess it's all on me. Totally typical, actually, in relationships for these things to come out.
He starts to perceive her as critical as nagging him as tense. Oh, you're so stressed out. Why are you making such a big deal over these little things?
You need to lower your expectations. You make things harder than you need to. That sort of stuff starts to come out.
So, both of them begin to develop some almost like storylines about each other. So, the story she tells herself about him is he's selfish, unhelpful, doesn't care about her. Everything falls on her.
The storyline he starts to tell is it's never enough for her. She's critical. She won't get off my back.
She'll leave me alone. She doesn't appreciate all that I already do. And they start to sort of retreat to their own worlds.
And this is where the disconnection happens. No one's really, you know, taking the time to check their assumptions, to get in each other's perspectives, to think about what is it like to be you in this relationship? What's it like to be you in this relationship?
And work through it together. So, they start to retreat to their own worlds. The distance develops.
Eventually it probably affects what their sex life looks like. And some couples go on like this for years. And you just, you know, the interactions become shorter, more logistical, less relational.
You start to forget why you even married the person. You start to forget what you like about them. And it becomes a really just sad state of affairs for a relationship when these things are not addressed and worked through.
And it's not always, you know, easy to do. But it's definitely something worth the effort and the energy.
Laura Dugger: (32:08 - 33:07) I like that because it's not easy to do. It will require time and energy and intentionality. It's also not easy to be in that type of marriage.
I would argue it's even more difficult and draining. And just is not the abundant life that we're hoping to enjoy in Christ and in our relationships. So, we don't want that.
But I love your book gives plenty of practical tips for navigating this. And I thought it was really wise. One piece where you just talked about, we kind of get in a rut.
Maybe where we both have our assigned roles in marriage or tasks that we naturally take care of. But both of us forget there are seasons of extra. And when extra things come up, it's just helpful to reflect and evaluate who's picking up all of those extra invisible tasks.
So, do you have any wisdom to share for recognizing that or managing that tension?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (33:09 - 37:33) Yeah, I think. So back when I was explaining how it got heavy for women, why it primarily happens the way it does, that concept I explained of her doing the things out of just goodness of her heart and loving her partner and her family. I call that something called piling on of precedence.
And so, part of the problem when we do that is that a lot of times we take things on, like I said, with no discussion, no negotiation. And what that does is it keeps the thing that we do in the dark. It keeps it invisible.
So, as we move through family life with different seasons with our kids and our careers and all the things, new stuff comes up. Like we're in the season of youth sports. And so, youth sports are like, I mean, holy moly, hours sometimes to even just sign up for a sport.
It's wild, all that you got to navigate. And so, I think it's really important to be aware of what you are taking on with no discussion or conversation. So, I talk about in the book, I believe I talk about in the book, I do these experiments on my husband, and he doesn't know to this day, and I'm not shy about talking about it, but it's on him to listen to a podcast.
And then he can figure it out. But I started doing this one experiment in the attempt to try to make more of the invisible visible. And part of why this is important is because a lot of times one task with a mental load unpacks to contain multiple tasks.
This is why we get really overwhelmed even though our to-do list looks totally manageable. It's like, well, dinner's not just cooking dinner. It's all these other things involved.
So, I started doing this thing called narration and just to see what would happen. And it's not narration in the sense that it's like this petty laundry list of all that I do. But I would pick one task, and I would just narrate to my husband what I did.
And so, it sounds like this. I would say, oh, hey, babe, just so you know, I signed Roy up for Little League. He'd be like, oh, OK.
I'd be like, I filled out the forms. Start to list. I filled out the forms.
I found his birth certificate. That took me a while, but I found it and I uploaded it. I paid all the fees.
I downloaded two apps. You got to get those two. Here's what they're called.
But I just wanted you to know I handled it. So, a couple of things would always get accomplished. Number one, now he knows all that's involved in signing our son up for Little League.
He would never know. It would just be something that it's just done. He was not even thinking about it.
It's something I handle. It's off his plate. So now he knows all of the steps that are involved.
He has a greater awareness of what I'm doing. It saves me from later because sometimes we don't mind doing stuff like this. And then by the end of the week when we're at our limit and one more thing piles on and we're kind of annoyed, we might resent the thing that we didn't originally.
So, it's sort of saving me from that. And it gives him the opportunity to express appreciation, which every time I've done that, that's what ends up happening. Thank you so much for handling that.
I really appreciate you. You're so great at taking care of that stuff. And over time, I've just selected things and I've started doing that.
And over time, what's really interesting is that my husband has started doing it too. So, I never told him that I did this, but now he'll be like, hey, babe, just so you know, I submitted our taxes. I paid your LLC fee for you, and I did this and I did that.
And I get to then see all that he's doing and express appreciation. So, what it's done is it's made invisible things visible. And it has also, and this is really important, normalized expressing appreciation over the value each of us contribute in our home and family life.
And appreciation is one of the most desired things women want from their partners around the mental load. It's initiative taking and appreciation. And so, we have normalized this mutual exchange of sharing how we add value to our family and giving appreciation around it.
Laura Dugger: (37:34 - 39:25) That is so good. And as you were sharing, I was thinking too of times that my husband, Mark, I love it when he'll walk me through something he did at work or taxes actually came to mind too, where he said, this is how long it took me to do all these steps. And your first response is like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.
And just really just falling in love with them a little bit more and appreciating them. So, I love how that can be a positive cycle that goes both ways. And its intimacy because you're getting to see into each other's lives and that invisible brain space for both of them. Yes.
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You mention in your book that you recommend considering time and energy as each spouse's currency.
So, their currency rather than how much money they make. So, this is especially for maybe parents who have one stay-at-home mom or dad. So, consider time and energy as each spouse's currency rather than how much money we make.
So, there's this paragraph on page 34 that I hope everybody gets and reads just about the value of a stay-at-home parent. But is there anything you could share to elaborate on that topic?
Dr. Morgan Cutlip: (39:26 - 42:29) Yeah, so this part of the book was really important for me to include for a couple of reasons. One, I remember early on when my husband and I were trying to develop a shared language around the mental load and he would get prickly about certain things and where he always got stuck was around the money piece. Well, you know, typically, you know, he thinks a bit traditionally.
So, he'd be like, well, men are like, well, not always. That's actually not true. Look at the amount of female breadwinners.
It's like pretty high percentage at this point in our American society. So, I knew this was a common just point of contention in this conversation. I also interviewed men for my book.
I interviewed men and women. I surveyed women and that came up a lot. Don't forget that life costs money.
Don't forget the value that we add. And also, when I talked about, you know, this socialization for men, really around providing financial and physical safety is this really, you know, it's prevalent. A lot of men, even if they're not the breadwinner, will feel an increase in pressure and responsibility to provide financially after kids enter the picture.
So, it's a real thing. And so, in that sense, it was really important for me to include it. But the other is because I talk to mostly, you know, stay at home moms all the time.
And it's like, but he makes the money and I don't know what to say to that. And so, I really wanted to provide the permission to, you know, women or just parents who don't make the most money to ask for more participatio