Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner (Episode 252)
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Show Notes
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
252. Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner
**Transcription Below**
Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Questions and Topics We Cover:
- What are a couple of your most important tips for newlyweds?
- What are your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well?
- Will you define what constitutes a sexless marriage and share any trends you've seen over the years?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today
Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner:
Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
Additional Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery
Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery
Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery
Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGm.com.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are my returning guests today. They are considered some of the pioneers in Christian sex therapy, and I'll make sure that I link back to our previous two episodes where we talked about various topics. But today they're going to continue the conversation and give us timeless truth and wisdom as it relates to sexual intimacy in marriage. [00:01:19]
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Cliff and Joyce.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We're glad to be back, and nice to be seeing each other on this. It's great.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. It adds a bonus, wonderful extra layer. The two of you have been on previously. We're familiar that you have a unique line of work, and it's amazing that you get to do it together. But I'd love to know, what is your favorite part of the work that you get to do?
Joyce Penner: It is so rewarding to experience the change that can happen in people's lives.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Just this last weekend, we were up in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada, speaking to a college group, and we got a response there that kind of answers your question.
Joyce Penner: Yes. One of the faculty people said that 25 years ago they had gotten married and gone on our website, passionatecommitment.com, and it read one of the answers to our question about how past childhood sexual abuse can affect your marriage. [00:02:31] And it just fit them perfectly, and they did everything we recommended, and it has made a major difference in their lives and was such a healing work. And that's 25 years ago from something on our website.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We never even talked about it.
Joyce Penner: Not even therapy. It's that kind of a thing that just warms us. Particularly, I think when we can even prevent, like when premarital couples, people who are anticipating marriage, come to us and ask for help or call, we accept calls. And I do about 10, 15 minutes kind of triage-free for anybody who calls. We're not practicing much anymore because we're now in our 80s, but we still can make a difference because, in a few minutes, I can give them some direction. [00:03:32]
Dr. Clifford Penner: Well, let's give an example. In our book, Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start, in the chapter on the honeymoon, right in the middle of it, we say, "And if you guys run into trouble on your honeymoon, call us." So we get calls from all over the world while people are on their honeymoon.
Joyce Penner: And it's so great because that honeymoon is what we think back to every anniversary. And if it was painful and didn't work and was disappointing-
Dr. Clifford Penner: And emotionally stressful.
Joyce Penner: So I can just give them some little help and then say, "And do this and just really get to know yourselves and enjoy it, and we'll fix the problem when you get back, but make it a special time." That kind of thing, it just warms us. I mean, it just blesses us so much to know that God is using us in that way.
Laura Dugger: You really model. It truly is better to give than to receive. [00:04:32] I'm sure you receive so much encouragement through their words.
Joyce Penner: Yes.
Laura Dugger: Would you mind even sharing that phone number? If somebody is listening and they want to reach out, what is that number?
Dr. Clifford Penner: I think we should give the office number. (626) 449-2525.
Joyce Penner: We also have on our website, our home office number. You can go to our website to get that because then it goes directly into our home and I can answer it from here.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that because I think it's important. We'll kind of talk about three different phases. You brought up newlyweds, and I'd love to hear more about that stage of life. But then also couples who want to be intentional with their sex lives, even if they're currently content, and then also addressing the married couples who are facing some challenges currently, and also couples who are in a sexless marriage. [00:05:40]
First of all, let's just go back. Let's elaborate on what you're saying about newlyweds. What are a couple of your most important tips that you want newlyweds to know?
Joyce Penner: First of all, to talk about it and to plan and prepare so that... So many times, even well-educated, highly educated couples, brilliant, bright, will say, "Oh, but we don't want to spoil it by talking about it ahead of time."
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's such a bad way of thinking. Such a destructive way of thinking.
Joyce Penner: I mean, we've heard from couples, but the majority...
Dr. Clifford Penner: What they'll often say is, "Let's just do what comes naturally. And what comes naturally most of the time doesn't work if they haven't prepared for it.
Joyce Penner: And talked about it and made sure there are no barriers. Particularly for premarital couples, one question we ask is, for the woman, have you ever been able to use a tampon? [00:06:46] And if she says, "No, you know, I tried and it didn't work" or whatever. "And have you been able to go to the doctor and have a gynecological examination?" "No, I didn't do that."
Well, to never have been able to use a tampon and expect to be able to consummate your marriage, it just will not work. The tampon thing, it isn't that you have to use tampons. It's just a way of assessing quickly whether there could be an issue with difficulty consummating.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So what we recommend is the couple, if they need a guide for talking about it, use a book like our book, Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start. Extend through every aspect of preparing to be together sexually.
Even if couples have had sex prior to getting married, it still is something we would recommend for couples getting married because we find that premarital sex and married sex has a different feeling to it. [00:07:56]
Joyce Penner: Once you're committed, things that happen in our background can trigger a negative reaction. And you could have been highly, intensely passionate before marriage and so eager to consummate or have had great sex. And then you get married and all of a sudden something shuts down. We can anticipate that and prevent it and give some tools ahead of time if people are willing to engage in the process.
Dr. Clifford Penner: The other thing we talk about is clarifying our expectations. So that if the guy thinks we're going to have sex three times a day...
Joyce Penner: Or they yell.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or they yell. And the other one thinks, Well, maybe we'll have sex once on our honeymoon or maybe even beyond the honeymoon, what the expectations are in terms of life.
Joyce Penner: Well, and so many times the couple thinks the guy should plan a surprise honeymoon. We do not recommend surprise honeymoon.
Dr. Clifford Penner: We had a disastrous surprise honeymoon.
Joyce Penner: And a man with lots of wealth to do a great honeymoon. And the gal just hates the environment which he chose.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And the man has spent zillions of dollars on it and she's trying to be a good sport but is not having a good time. So always plan it together from our perspective.
Laura Dugger: That is so wise because that spills into so many other future areas. I'm thinking when that couple transitions then to having children. Going back to what you said, if she's choosing to nurse and she thinks, "Well, I'll just do whatever comes naturally," There can still be a lot to learn. And so it's always wise to plan and prepare. [00:09:51]
And I love that you brought up one of your books. That's a great one. I wonder if people could even take that on the honeymoon with them.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Oh, yeah. But we recommend that they prep for the six months [00:10:03] A lot of couples do.
Joyce Penner: And the other thing we really are against is saving the kiss. The first kiss at the altar. For one thing, a kiss is a very personal, passionate moment. And to do that in front of an audience for the first time.
Dr. Clifford Penner: When you haven't practiced 500 times before that.
Joyce Penner: And kissing is very much the barometer for how a sexual relationship will work. And if kissing isn't working for a premarital couple, they should find out what's going on and get some help. Because that's going to reflect on how the sex life will be.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But the idea of having the first kiss at the altar... we've had so many destructive stories about that. It's an awful idea.
Joyce Penner: If that's going to be the case, then for sure know that you probably won't consummate the marriage on the honeymoon. [00:11:04] That you need to take time and take our book, do the exercises, really get to know each other first before, if that's your value that you don't want to have anything physical until the honeymoon or the marriage.
Laura Dugger: That is so great to hear. I've never heard it put that straightforward before. And I think back, our first kiss was not at the altar. Actually, my husband kissed me before date number two, but that's a whole other story. But at the altar... Oh, is that you as well?
Joyce Penner: But I have to say, I've been taught not to kiss anybody. So I ended up in the hospital with an undiagnosed illness. And they still say, he's such a great kisser. It's no wonder.
Laura Dugger: No way. That's amazing.
Joyce Penner: It stirred up feelings in me I did not know anything about. I was 17, you know. You know, if that had been how we started our marriage, it would have been a real... [00:12:12] We wouldn't be sex therapists today.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Well, and you're right. Even that moment at the altar is so special. I hope I never forget that my husband, Mark, actually leaned in and kissed me three times. And we still laugh about it. So that is really helpful.
What would you say, then, as we progress through couples in marriage, what are some of your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well?
Joyce Penner: Yes. Well, we just think if couples are intentional about their sex life, rather than just thinking, again, that it will just happen naturally.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Some couples come in and say, "Well, we don't want to plan it. We just want it to be spontaneous." And we ask them the Dr. Phil question, "So how's that working out for you?"
Joyce Penner: And it's so funny to us. One thing that's very curious is couples will come because they're not having sex. [00:13:16] This isn't the couple where things are good. We'll get back to that question. But they're not having it as often as one of them wants or not often at all. And we'll say, when was the last time? And they say, Well, it's been a couple months, maybe a year. And then they resist planning for it. And we say, "You know, what's that about?" It's obviously not working by not being intentional. So whether it's the resistance to being intentional.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing we would say is-
Joyce Penner: But for those for whom it's going well. We answered that kind of backwards.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But the first thing we would say is plan. You know, when you're in that first year of marriage and everything's going well, it doesn't seem like you have to plan. But once kids come along or you're working on your next business or degree or-
Joyce Penner: Doing your doctoral dissertation.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or whatever. Life is going to get in the way. [00:14:15] And so the only way it's going to work is if you are intentional about your sex life. That's one thing.
A second thing is we would encourage them to practice what we're going to have you put out for everyone. The formula for intimacy. And let's talk about that.
Joyce Penner: Yes. This is something we came up with years ago. And then after the sex and the brain research came out, I think in about 2008... I can't remember when it came out. We had developed this from our clinical observations. And then we found out why it works. And now we can explain in it.
So we talk about what we need to do is plan 15 minutes a day to connect. This isn't to have sex. This is to keep the intimacy going so that we can have an ongoing good sex life. We talk about kissing as part of that. And that kissing- [00:15:15]
Dr. Clifford Penner: But you jump way ahead. First, we talk about an emotional connection. Where you're just looking at each other. One of the things that came out in the research too is that when couples look in each other's eyes, it raises their oxytocin level, which is the binding hormone.
Joyce Penner: We actually came up with that because of breastfeeding and looking into a baby's eyes. And we knew that that was important in terms of attachment. So we started to use that when... Like I remember a couple where the man just had no capacity for intimacy. He was raised in an orphanage and adopted after the first year of life. So he had no attachment during that first year of life. And it's hard to. How do you teach attachment? You know, you can't hold your couples... couple in therapy and hold them and give them what they didn't get from their mom or from a nurturing caregiver.
So we found that looking into their eyes really helped. Well, now we discover in this 15-minute thing where you start by sharing something positive and looking into each other's eyes. [00:16:27] Because the eye-to-eye contact triggers Oxytocin. And that's the bonding attachment intimacy hormone. So we start that way.
And we found that certain couples when they would talk to each other, you could tell they wouldn't look at each other. They'd go past each other rather than have that eye-to-eye contact. And other couples would just be so engaged. And we can make a difference to which couples responded well in the therapy process and where there was a lot of resistance or difficulty.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So the first thing is that emotional contact. The next thing is a spiritual connection.
Joyce Penner: This is all in this one 15-minute. You can set the timer just to practice it. And having four kids, you and your husband you practice this.
Dr. Clifford Penner: But for a spiritual connection, everyone is in a different place on their spiritual journey. But that could be saying a prayer together. [00:17:27] It could be reading a couple's devotional. It could be-
Joyce Penner: An inspirational reading. Something where it connects our spiritual [inaudible 00:17:36] into the center of this attachment.
Dr. Clifford Penner: So there's the emotional connection. There's a spiritual connection. And there's a physical connection.
Joyce Penner: And they give each other a full-body hug.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Full body hug. Not what we would call a Southern Baptist hug.
Joyce Penner: And just close on. Your fronts just totally connect and hold.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's got to be 20 seconds. Because the research has shown that a 20-second hug also raises the oxytocin level.
Joyce Penner: Even more strongly. So you just get a huge surge of oxytocin after 20 seconds. So again, we encourage couples to set a timer on their phone. Just 20 seconds.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And play with it.
Joyce Penner: Yeah. And have fun. And you can do this with the kids around. It's great for them to see that mommy and daddy hug each other. And then have a 5 to 30-second passionate kiss. [00:18:35]
Dr. Clifford Penner: And we're talking about a kiss, not a peck. But a passionate kiss. The reason we say 5 seconds is some couples can't last longer than that kissing.
Laura Dugger: And sometimes if there's been... Like maybe a person was abused with the childhood kissing and kissed inappropriately so that kissing is aversive, the hugging and the eye to eye will help. That's why the kiss is the last thing.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And you see, what the kiss does is it raises the dopamine level. That's the exciting hormone rather than the bonding hormone.
Joyce Penner: That's the spark. And even after almost 61 years, we can still get a little spark with that dopamine kissing. That's the formula. And we would suggest that every couple practice that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: And that's just the 15 minutes a day. Then we talk about one day per week, where you have a time set aside for the two of you. [00:19:37]
Joyce Penner: people say, but what if we aren't turned on? You don't have to be turned on. But taking time to pleasure each other, to enjoy each other's bodies. And often in that process, we do get turned on.
But if you don't, it's just wonderful that you were together and touching and caressing and enjoying each other's bodies. And maybe one gets turned on and the other doesn't. The turn-on, the response isn't the important part. The important part is the physical connection caressing each other's bodies.
Dr. Clifford Penner: so 15 minutes a day, one connection during the week. It could be evening, normally, but sometimes it's daytime. And then we suggest that once a quarter a couple divert themselves at least for a day just to each other. And then once a year at least do something like over the weekend. Whether it's a retreat or a getaway or something that is just focused on the relationship. That's the formula for intimacy.[00:20:37]
Joyce Penner: yeah. And it can be attending a seminar or watching a podcast like this. Something where you're together devoting time. Obviously if a mom's breastfeeding, the baby has to go with you wherever you are. There's a period of time where that won't work purely. But still if the older children are with grandma and grandpa or if you don't have a grandma and grandpa around, if you're in a small group, or you have couples neighbors who have young children, trade. You know, one weekend a year you take their kids and one weekend a year they take your kids.
But you can always find some way to do it. And it doesn't have to be expensive. You don't even have to go somewhere if somebody can take your kids. You can stay home and have the weekend and do some reading and studying.
Dr. Clifford Penner: That's the other thing that we would recommend for couples is that they read out loud together. [00:21:34]
Joyce Penner: And there's a reason for that again with the brain. When we have stuff emotions spinning around in our head that affect our body, they're in the right hemisphere of our brain. Our verbal center is in the left hemisphere of our brain. And when we verbalize, when we say something out loud, it has to cross the midline and it loses its power on our body.
It's like when a speaker shakes when they talk and they say, no. But when I talk I shake, and then usually they stop shaking. I remember I had a brother who did court presentations and he had that. And he would just say it and then done. But verbalizing. That's why we recommend so highly that couples they're using our materials, that they read them out loud together and use it... It's almost like the book can become a therapist. [00:22:32] It's like a third party.
And then you can read one sentence and talk an hour about it. Or a paragraph. Or you can read the whole chapter and there's nothing in it that triggers a conversation. But it isn't reading to get through the book. It's reading to stimulate the conversation and having the verbal interaction so the stuff that's bothering you or that's affecting your body isn't controlling anymore, it's getting out.
Laura Dugger: wow you literally just answered a question that I had posed to the lord this morning in my quiet time. I was journaling it. And just thinking of stress that can come on when we've been too busy and haven't had that time to just get current and share things at the end of the day, if it's carried on a few days and you do one huge chunk of time, that still is better. [00:23:26] But just noticing that it was little by little. And I felt like, Lord, is there something here that is a stress reliever when we share it with our words? And you just backed it up with the brain science. That's amazing.
Joyce Penner: Yes. Yes.
Laura Dugger: Well, then, if we continue-
Dr. Clifford Penner: I want to say one more thing quickly. Okay, and that is, for couples that are generally in good shape with each other, we would recommend reading our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex, which is for men, and enjoy the gift of sexual pleasure for women.
Joyce Penner: And they're easy reads. They're not real technical, there's some technical stuff just to help us understand just like we've shared here. But they really read well. You can read one paragraph in the Married Guy's Guide and then one in the other.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Or read one whole book and then the other one. Just wanted to say that as one more recommendation for couples to just keep this part alive.
Laura Dugger: That's wonderful we have both of those books in our home and have heard fabulous feedback from others who've read it. So we'll link that actually in today's show notes so people can have an easy link where they can find it. [00:24:40] But if we're thinking about those healthy couples that are currently content, do you have any examples of stories or best advice that comes to mind for those who are mutually satisfied with their intimacy in marriage?
Joyce Penner: Well, the first thing we usually ask is about the kissing and whether they're still kissing passionately.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Because what's happened for many couples is the kissing becomes the determiner of whether we're going to have sex tonight or not. So if husband comes home and wife comes home and he reaches out for a kiss and she determines, do I feel like having sex tonight? And if it's a yes, then it's on the lips. If it's a no, it's on the cheek.
Joyce Penner: And she goes like this rather than like that. I teach a lot of mother's groups and that is such a common one. [00:25:43] They just really identify with that. And so if they realize they make a deal that are kissing, we keep kissing passionately. And we do it whether the kids are there or not. And we do it whether or not we're going to have sex. It doesn't mean I want to have sex if I lean in and kiss passionately.
Dr. Clifford Penner: It means I'm wanting to connect intimately with you right now. And if sex happens, it's great. If it doesn't, that's okay too.
Joyce Penner: We probably don't have as many stories about those for whom it's going well because-
Dr. Clifford Penner: People don't come to us if it's going well.
Joyce Penner: But I do have some from the mothers' groups and mainly. And not a specific one, mainly that's the feedback I get. Oh, we kiss all the time. And in fact the kids, you know, say, Ah, you guys yuck. But it's good for them to see you kissing because eventually they'll be in your role. [00:26:44]
Laura Dugger: That's right I love that you bring up a really crucial point about even just considering all of our non-sexual touch outside the bedroom, that all of that contributes to a better sex life inside the bedroom. So is there anything you'd want to expound upon there?
Joyce Penner: Yeah. Well, I just thought of another example.Some couples walk together, take a walk together. Particularly like if they do have kids and they're old enough that they're fine, you know, to be in the house if they're just going for a walk around the block or whatever. And they walk and talk. And there's a lot of brain research that says walking and talking is very helpful. And mothers will say, I just love it if my husband and I can go for a walk and hold hands and chat and talk, maybe even stop and kiss a bit.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense. Even that bilateral movement, your left to right foot, how there's brain science behind that as well that helps us process and de-stress and connect.
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[00:29:11] <music>
Laura Dugger: Well then, for better or worse, how do you see other forms of intimacy spilling over into sexual intimacy in marriage?
Dr. Clifford Penner: Say a little bit more about what you mean there.
Laura Dugger: Sure. I'm assuming most couples don't say, we have a fantastic sex life, but we never connect emotionally. Or if they're Christ followers, if spiritual intimacy isn't a piece at all, that probably affects emotional and sexual intimacy.
Joyce Penner: Right. Yes. Having that time to connect in other ways. If sex is just... That's why the formula for intimacy is so important. If sex is just about the erotic, heating our bodies together and getting turned on, and having that dopamine surge, that's what porn is. It's not about a relationship. [00:30:11] If we function that way in our marriage, long term, it won't be good for both. It won't be mutually satisfying.
Dr. Clifford Penner: Another way of saying that is, unless there is some level of intimacy and connection, the sex life, over time, will disintegrate.
Joyce Penner: And that's one of our benefits of working together, because we do everything together, practically. Every now and then, who needs a break to get out of the house to go to the office? Just to have some independent, which I think guys maybe need more than women, but some women may need it too. Maybe high-powered working women outside the home.
But knowing if you need some space, that's fine too. But making sure you do have plenty of time to connect. And even, like you said, share your thoughts, just to get that verbal stuff going. [00:31:10] And if you never have time together to have spiritual connection or emotional expressions, how are you going to de-stress, if the only de-stressing is that dopamine moment of the erotic release.
Dr. Clifford Penner: One of the things that we know is that, first of all, men often find it easier to connect side-by-side than face-to-face. That's why a walk is of