What You Can Do When Parenting Is Hard: Coaching with Joanna: Episode 211

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I do a coaching call with Joanna who has a 2-year-old and a 7-year-old.

We cover how to make mindset shifts so you can better show up for your kids, as well as get into specifics around night weaning, bedtime battles, handling meltdowns, playful parenting and increasing our connection to our kids.

**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.

Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!

We talk about:

* 6:40 how to manage meltdowns

* 9:00 Night weaning and bedtime challenges

* 20:00 Emptying a full emotional backpack

* 26:00 Kids who always want more attention

* 28:00 Understanding blame and anger

* 38:00 Games to play when a child is looking for more power

* 44:00 How our mindset makes such a big difference when parenting

* 47:30 Two keys to peaceful parenting!

* 55:00 Playful approaches to bedtime

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* How to Help Our Little Ones Sleep with Kim Hawley

* Episode 100: When Your Child Has a Preferred Parent (or Not) with Sarah and Corey

* Episode 103: Playful Parenting with Lawrence Cohen

* Playful Heart Parenting with Mia Wisinski: Episode 186

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.

In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.

Our sponsors:

YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERE

Transcript:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s episode is a coaching episode. My guest is Joanna, mom of a 7-year-old and a 2-year-old. Joanna’s 7-year-old is an intense child, and she wanted to know how to handle her big feelings and find more connection with her.

She also had some specific challenges around bedtime, namely that her partner works shift work and is not home at bedtime. She still breastfeeds her 2-year-old to sleep, so is unavailable to her seven-year-old for a bit, and then has trouble getting her seven-year-old to bed without a fight. Joanna also shared how low she was on resources, and we had a great discussion about how that impacts her parenting and what she might do about it.

Also, meltdowns—we talked about those too and how to respond. I know Joanne is not alone. One note: after we did the follow-up call, I realized I forgot to ask her about a few things. So she kindly recorded a couple of P.S.’s that I’ll include. If you’re curious, like I am, you’ll be glad she gave us the latest updates.

If you would like to come on the podcast and be coached by me, I am looking for a few parents who are interested. You can email me at [email protected].

As always, please give us a five-star rating and a review on your favorite podcast app, and if you know another parent or caregiver that this would be helpful for, please screenshot it and send it to them. The best way to reach more families with peaceful parenting is through word of mouth, so we really appreciate any shares that you might be able to give us.

Okay. Let’s meet Joanna. Okay.

Sarah: Hi Joanna. Welcome to the podcast.

Joanna: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Sarah: Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Joanna: Sure. I live up in Ottawa, Canada, with my husband and my two kids. I’m a music therapist, so right now I’m working with babies. I teach Yoga with Baby and, um, a class called Sing and Sign at a local wellness center.

Sarah: Nice. How old are—

Joanna: Yes, I have a 7-year-old girl who we’ll call Jay.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: And then a 2-year-old boy called JR.

Sarah: JJ. Okay, perfect. Okay, so how can I support you today?

Joanna: Yeah, so my daughter has always been, like, a bit of a tricky one. Um. She was born premature, so at 29 weeks. And no kind of lasting effects. But as she’s gotten older, we’ve noticed, like, she’s really struggled a lot with emotional regulation. Um, and she kind of gets stuck on certain behaviors. So I feel like we’ve done a lot to change our parenting, in part thanks to you and your podcast and all the material. Um, I did finally read, um, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids this past summer.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And I feel like it also had a huge effect, just having, like, that bigger scope of understanding of, like, the peaceful parenting philosophy.

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Joanna: So I would say, like, even from where we were a few months ago, we’ve experienced tons of positive shifts with her.

Sarah: Sweet.

Joanna: Yeah, so we’re already kind of well on our way, but there are certain behaviors that she has that still I find really perplexing. So I wondered if maybe we could go over a couple of them.

Sarah: Sure. Yeah, no problem. For anyone—if, for anyone who doesn’t know, Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids is the book written by my mentor, who I trained with, Dr. Laura Markham. Um, and just for my own curiosity, what do you think? Because, you know, I always worry that people are—that they don’t have the fully formed idea of peaceful parenting. And that—and I’m not saying you, because you’ve listened to the podcast so you probably have a deeper understanding—but some people are just getting their little snippets on Instagram reels, you know, and so it is hard to understand, like, the, the sort of the core reasons why we do the approach if you don’t have that deeper understanding. And also, I’m working on a book right now, so hopefully soon you’ll be able to say you read my book. But what did you—what do you feel like got fleshed out for you when you read that book?

Joanna: I think she really breaks a lot of things down step by step, such as, like, what to do when your child is going through a meltdown.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And that has always been an area—like, when my daughter gets to that point where she’s, like, become really explosive and aggressive and she’s just, like, in it and she’s kind of unreachable at that moment—like, what to do step by step at that time. I think, like, that’s been the most helpful because I’ve been able to really settle into my own parenting and just, like, really trust myself and anchor in at that point, which is exactly really what she needs and what was missing.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Joanna: So—

Sarah: So I think, um—like I always say, focus on regulating yourself first. Like, when someone’s having a meltdown, empathize.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Um, you know, it—yeah, it’s—it can be hard because you often feel like you need to do something. And even though you’re saying step by step, it’s less about doing anything than just centering yourself, staying calm yourself, trying to get in touch with the compassion and empathy even if you’re not—some pe—some parents say, “Oh, well, when I try to say anything, then my kid just screams more.” So sometimes it’s just empathize—like, getting connected in your own heart to the empathy and compassion, even if you’re not saying anything—and that, that does something.

Joanna: Absolutely it does. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Joanna: Yeah, so that’s all been really helpful. Now, in—in terms of emotional regulation, I do definitely think that that’s the biggest piece.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: Uh, it’s been the biggest piece for me and sort of, like, one of the big things that I wanted to talk to you about today is we are still really not getting sleep because my 2-year-old is not a good sleeper and has never been a good sleeper. And we’ve gone through periods where I’m like, okay, now he’s only waking up, like, twice a night, and that feels manageable. Um, but he’s kind of been back to waking up, like, three to six times a night again, which is so hard. And then my husband’s very supportive; however, he works afternoons, so he’s gone from about 3:00 PM to 1:00 AM, so he needs to be able to sleep until about eight, which means I’m up with my son between six and seven. My daughter gets up for school around 7:30, so that’s, like, a tricky time of day because she’s really quite grumpy in the morning. He’s not—the toddler’s really, like, kind of a totally different temperament. But, like, I’m tired after struggling with, like, night wakings all night. And then I’m with the kids from the time that she gets home from school, um, and then doing both bedtimes myself.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Um, so there’s a lot of time where, like, I am solo parenting, and I’m definitely, like, the preferred parent. Um, and both my kids really want me and need me at bedtime. So he is still nursing—like, I’m nursing to sleep and then nursing during the night. And I know that that’s probably contributing a lot to all the night wakings. So, I guess my question is, like, I am at the point where I am ready to night-wean. I probably should have done it already, but—

Sarah: Don’t say “should have.” Like, it’s—if you’re not ready to make that change, like, in your heart, it’s really torturous to try to—try to, like, not—so say you decide you want to night-wean, but you weren’t really ready to do it. It would be so painful for you to deny your son nursing in the night if you were—if you didn’t feel in your heart, like, “No, this is the right thing to do. I’m totally ready. I think he’s ready.” So, so I think waiting until you’re really, like, actually, yes, “I’m done with this,” is a smart thing. Yeah. So don’t beat yourself up for not having done it already. But you’re right, it probably does contribute to him waking up in the night.

Joanna: Yeah. And, um, I do feel like I—I’m ready. I just—I’m not quite sure how to make that shift. So what generally happens is, like, we have some, like, virtual babysitting going on with my mom, where, like, when I nurse my son to sleep, which generally takes, like, between maybe 30 and 45 minutes, she’ll, like, sit with her and do a workbook. So we’ll have, like, a video chat, and then after—

Sarah: Yeah, it’s great.

Joanna: So then after, um, I’m with her to get her ready for bed, and that oftentimes looks like a lot of, like, dragging heels on, like, “Oh, I want another snack,” and “I wanna, like, brush my teeth,” and “Whatever—don’t wanna brush my teeth.” So, um, then that ends up taking usually about an hour, but we both sort of have, like, this expiration at about 9:00 PM, where, like, she just gets so dysregulated because she’s so tired.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: So if I don’t have her in bed at that point and, like, already kind of with the lights out, there’s often just, like, a meltdown and some—like, she’ll start calling me names and start, like, you know, throwing stuff down at me and whatnot. And then I’m just really tired by that point too. Yeah. So we can kind of joke around about it now—like, nine o’clock is the time where we’re, like, where we both expire. So I’m trying to figure out, like, how can I night-wean? Because I know that that is supposed to start with, like, him being able to fall asleep by himself at the beginning of the night, so—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Slowly phasing that out and laying with him. I know it’s gonna probably take a lot longer in the beginning, so I’m just a little worried that, like, maybe if it takes, like, an hour, an hour and a half, then all of a sudden she’s kind of, like, left hanging and it’s getting later and her bedtime’s being pushed back.

Sarah: Are there any—are there any nights that your partner is home at bedtime?

Joanna: There’s two—

Sarah: nights that—

Joanna: he—

Sarah: is,

Joanna: yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would start with those nights.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. Start with those nights. And—and when was your son’s birthday? Like, like how—two—is he—

Joanna: He just turned two, like, two weeks ago.

Sarah: Okay. So, I mean, I think I would start with trying to just practice, you know, nursing him and maybe nursing him somewhere else and then bringing him back, you know, and then putting him in—are you co-sleeping?

Joanna: Sleep—yeah. Well, I put him—like, I generally nurse him to sleep. He has a floor bed in his room, and then I go to bed in my own room, and then at his first wake, then I go back in, and I just stay there for the room—the rest of the night from that point.

Sarah: Right, right. So I, I guess I would try just, like, nursing him and trying to, like, pat his back and sing to him and, you know, tell him that—that he can have—I, I mean, what we did was, “You can have milk in the morning,” you know, “You could have it when it’s light.” I remember my oldest son—when he—it took him a couple of days—and if you wanna hear the whole story of my failed night-weaning with my second son, it was in a podcast that we did about infant and toddler sleep, uh, with Kim.

Joanna: Yeah, Kim?

Sarah: Yes. So you could listen to that if you haven’t heard that already. But my second—my first son was super easy to night-wean, and a couple of—it was, like, a couple of nights of a little bit of crying, and he would just say, “Make it light, Mama. Make it light,” because he wanted—I said, “You can nurse when it’s light.” But, you know, I, I, I don’t wanna get into that whole big thing on this podcast because—mm-hmm—just because I’ve already talked about it. But if you wanna listen to that, and if you have any questions when we do our follow-up, you can, uh, you can ask me. But, you know, I would just try, you know, talking to him about, then, you know, “You can have Milky in the morning,” or whatever you call it, and, you know, those two—see how it goes for those two nights where your partner’s around. And if it doesn’t—I would say, if it still seems really hard, maybe just waiting to do it until—I don’t know if you have any other support you could enlist. You mentioned your mother—maybe she could come and visit, you know, because I do think it would be hard to try and do this and do the solo bedtimes for a while. So I don’t know if there’s a time when your mom could come visit or if there’s some other support that you could have. But yeah—

Joanna: I think the tricky part with that is that, like, she—even with my husband—like, she doesn’t want him to put her to bed.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And depending on the kind of night that she’s having, sometimes she’ll end up, like, screaming, and their bedrooms are right beside each other. So we’ve had it before where, like, she’ll start having a meltdown and, like, wake him up, and then he’s not able to fall asleep either. And then we—

Sarah: There’s also—your husband could be with your son.

Joanna: It’s the same—same situation though. Like, he doesn’t—him—

Sarah: It sounds—it sounds like possibly—I mean, there—kids do have preferred parents even when, um, they do have good connection with the—with the other parent. And you could maybe still work—have some—that be something that you’re working on, having your partner, you know, maybe even practicing having—before you start doing the night-weaning—practicing having your partner doing some of the bedtime stuff. When you are—when, you know, when—before you’re starting to make a change so that your son doesn’t associate, you know, “I’m not getting what I want,” and my dad, you know, putting me to sleep.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: So I would maybe try to get your partner a little bit more involved in bedtime before making a change. And—and even if there’s some crying—we also have a podcast about preferred parents that you could listen to. So I—you know, I think maybe you do have a little bit of pre-work to do before you start doing the night-weaning, and, in terms of when—how can you get support at bedtime?

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay.

Joanna: I mean, the other option is if you just kick it down the road more and—or, you know, there isn’t—there’s actually a third option now that I think about it—it’s that you still nurse him to sleep but then don’t nurse him when you wake him up—when he wakes up in the night. Get him to go back to sleep without that.

Sarah: I hadn’t thought about that, because I think that everything that I’ve heard has been, like, they have to fall asleep on their own because then they’re always gonna be—

Joanna: looking—

Sarah: for—

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: But I mean, you could still try it.

Joanna: Hmm. Okay.

Sarah: Or you could try shortening the—you know, give him a little bit of milk and then see if he’ll go to sleep, um, after he has a little bit, but without nursing to sleep.

Joanna: Okay. Yeah. Okay, I’ll give that some thought and try some different things there.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Okay. Thank you. But yeah, I feel like just starting to get sleep again is pretty important. So, even in terms of, like, being able to center myself to handle all of the things that goes on with my daughter during the day, that feels like a really important piece right now.

Sarah: For sure. And if she’s—if she’s some nights not going—it sounds like quite frequently maybe she’s not asleep before nine.

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And what time does she wake up?

Joanna: 7:30.

Sarah: 7:30. So do you think she’s getting enough sleep?

Joanna: Probably not. She’s really lethargic in the morning.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: But I can’t really seem to figure out how to be able to get her to sleep. Like, I did talk to her about it, and she was like, “Well, maybe when I turn eight, like, I can start putting myself to bed.” And I was like, “Okay, well what—what would that look like?” And she kind of went through, like, “Okay, I’ll, you know, I’ll brush my teeth on the phone with Grandma, and then I’ll just, like, read in bed.” And—but this is, like, in a moment where she’s feeling very regulated.

Sarah: Right, right, right. And when’s her birthday?

Joanna: Uh, in about two months.

Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Um, have you had a conversation with her about how neither of you likes the fighting at night? And, you know—and does she have any, like—not in the moment, but does she have any ideas of, you know, how you can solve the problem of her not, you know, not wanting to go to bed and then getting too tired and then getting really cranky?

Joanna: Yeah, we have—we have talked about it, and we can talk about it with, like, a little bit more levity now, but I don’t think that she’s actually—we’ve gone to, like, the problem-solving—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: of that.

Sarah: I mean, that might be a helpful conversation to have with her and just say, “You know, I’ve been thinking about what often happens at night, you know, and I totally get it, that you don’t wanna go to bed. Like, you know, when I was a kid, I never wanted to go to bed, and I would’ve stayed up all night if I could. And I’m sure you’re the same because it’s just—you know, when you’re young, going to bed is, like, you know, not any fun at all.” And you can make—you could even make a joke, like, “When you’re old like me, like, you can’t wait to go to bed.” But of course when you’re young, you don’t wanna go to sleep, and I totally get that. So, like, lots of empathy and acknowledging, like, her perspective. And—and then you could say, “And at the same time, you know, you do—you know, why do you think it’s important to sleep?” So I guess you could have that conversation with her too about, like, you know, what happens when we’re sleeping that—your, you know, you could talk about how your cells, like, fix themselves. Also we grow when we’re sleeping—like, we get the—like, the growth hormone gets secreted, and that’s the—if we don’t get enough sleep, we’re not gonna grow and we’re not gonna feel happy the next day. So you can, like, talk to her about the importance of sleep. And then you could say, like, “So, you know, I know you don’t wanna go to sleep, and I know how important it is, and now you do too. And, you know—and I hate fighting with you at bedtime. You know, do you have any ideas for how we can solve this problem? Because I really want us both to go to bed feeling happy and connected.”

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great suggestion. Thank you. I think the biggest barrier to her getting to bed on time is she is finally feeling, like, a bit more calm and relaxed at night. Like, she comes home after school with a lot—she’s holding a lot from school. They have, like, a point system for good behavior at school.

Sarah: Oh.

Joanna: And you should see how she racks up the points. She has great behavior at school. The teacher’s, like—would never believe what goes on at home.

Sarah: Of course, yeah.

Joanna: So then she comes home, and it’s, like, a lot of unloading. So I feel like by that time of night she’s, like, ready to pursue her hobbies. Like, she’s like, “Oh, I just wanna do this one more little”—you know, she’s drawing something, and it’s always like, “I just need to finish this,” because once she gets started on something, she can’t seem to break her focus on—We’re very much suspecting ADHD. That’s gonna be probably in the next year we pursue a diagnosis, but—

Sarah: Typically—do have a lot of trouble falling asleep—that’s with ADHD. What about—you know, so two outta three of my kids had a lot of trouble falling asleep, and they’re both my ADHD kids, and what really helped them was something to listen to at night. You know—

Joanna: Yeah, she does listen to podcasts falling asleep—

Sarah: Does listen to stuff.

Joanna: Yeah, she’s always listened—listened to, like, a story falling asleep. I think part of it too is we don’t get a lot of one-on-one time throughout the day.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: Because my son’s around in the morning.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Joanna: And it’s usually just the three of us until my husband wakes up, which is shortly before she goes to school. And then it’s again the three of us from after school till bedtime most days, except for the two days a week that he’s off.

Sarah: Well, I mean, that’s something to explore too, like, in—are there, you know—I don’t know if you live in a neighborhood that has some, like, tweens that could come over and play with your son for an hour—you know, just someone really fun that he would like to play with—and then you and your daughter could have some time together. Because what I was gonna say when you said that she comes home with what we call the “full backpack” in Peaceful Parenting—which is, she’s been carrying around, for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know what that is, it’s a concept that my mentor, Dr. Laura, came up with—where you’re holding on to all of the stresses, big feelings, tensions from the day, and then when you come home, it’s too much to, you know, to keep holding onto it. And so that’s what you were just referring to, is just that she’s got a lot to unpack after the day at school. And so I’m wondering—so when you mentioned that, I was gonna say, like, what could you do to try to proactively get some of that emptied out? Couple of ideas: do you do any roughhousing with her?

Joanna: We actually just started doing that, and I couldn’t believe how much she was into it. Yeah, I was super surprised. But I also think that it’s taken just a lot of, like, repair with our relationship to get to the point that I’ve even been able to try some of this stuff. Like, because at first, like, when I first started hearing about some of these, like, peaceful—I, I don’t know if you’d call them techniques—but, like, being playful and, um, roughhousing and things like that—she was so not open to anything at all because she was just so serious and so edgy and like, “Get away from me,” like, so irritable. So now I think that we’ve just—I’ve poured a lot of time in on weekends just to, like, spend time together that’s enjoyable, and I’m noticing a huge shift. So now we are able to do some of these things, and it—it is turning out more positively.

Sarah: Good. I mean, as you’re speaking, I’m thinking that it sounds like there was maybe, um, quite a—a breach when your son was born, like, the last two years. Or, or do you feel like your relationship has always been a little strained even before that?

Joanna: I feel like maybe it’s always been a little fraught. I don’t know if his birth had, like, a huge impact on that. Um, it has always been pretty strained.

Sarah: Okay, okay.

Joanna: Just because she’s the more challenging kid?

Sarah: I think so. And, you know, when she was two there was the pandemic. I think, like, I was carrying a lot of trauma after the whole NICU experience with her. And then we had the pandemic, and then we moved, and then I got pregnant, and then I had my son. So it’s like there’s sort of been these, like, things along the way where—yeah, I don’t know.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, that’s good that you brought that up because I think that, you know, maybe that’s gonna be the pre-work—that even before bedtime starts to feel better is really working on—you know, if you can get some support in, because it is really hard to have one-on-one time with a 2-year-old who probably doesn’t wanna leave you alone. But even if—you know, continue with your sort of bulking up on the weekends with that time with her and do some, like, roughhousing and special time with her. Do you guys do special time?

Joanna: Yeah. And that’s something I wanted to talk about because special time has been sort of a big fail when I call it special time and when we set a timer for special time, because it really tends to dysregulate her, I think, because she’s like, “Oh my God, I only have you for 15 minutes.” Mm-hmm. She gets really stressed out, and then she’s like—oftentimes she likes to do these, like, elaborate pretend plays—things which need, like, a lot, a lot of setup time. Yeah. So she’ll be like, “Pause the timer so I can set this up,” and then it just becomes, like, more tension between us. Like, it’s not enjoyable.

Sarah: It’s one of those things where, like, you really have to adjust it to how it works for your particular family. Um, so, you know, maybe you just have, like, a couple hours with her on the weekend and you’re—and it would be good for your—your partner and your son too. Maybe he could take him to the park or go and—you know, for them to work on their connection, which might make him a little bit more willing to go to bed with his dad, you know, on the nights that your partner is home. So, you know, I would really work on that connection with her and do those pretend play things with her. And even—you know, and this is maybe obvious, which is why I didn’t say it before—but, you know, partly she’s dragging her heels because that’s the only time she has you to herself—at bedtime, right?

Joanna: Yeah.

Sarah: And so she doesn’t want that to end because that’s the only time that it—her brother’s asleep—she has you all to herself. So if you can increase the time where she has you all to herself, she might be more willing to, um, to go to bed. Yeah. The other thing I was gonna say is, do you have anything that you do together at bedtime that would be, like—it sounds like she’s dragging her heels to actually get in bed. Is there anything that you can do to entice her to get in bed, like a chapter book that you’re reading her, that you read a chapter every night or something like that?

Joanna: Yeah, and that has worked in the past, but it can—it can also kind of cause tension because I find, like, then I am a lot more apt to kind of hold it as, like, a bargaining chip instead of, like, “Oh, let’s get to that.” Right. But lately we’ve been playing cards, and she’s really motivated to, like, play a game of cards when we’re in bed. So that seems to be working right now, but it’s always kind of like—it changes all the time.

Sarah: Right, right. Well, just keeping—thinking of something that you can use to make getting in bed seem more attractive? Um, maybe—I mean, my kids used to love hearing stories about me when I was little or about them when they were little. So it could even just be, like, a talk time. I know Corey, who works with me, does—she started doing a 10-minute talk time with one of her sons, who’s a little bit older than—than your daughter, but where they just have, you know, this time where they just get in bed and he tells her stuff and they—they talk. So that could be something too—just really pure, straight-up connection.

Joanna: Yeah. Okay, I like that. Maybe I can just ask you a couple more things about some of the things I—She’s kind of a person that really wants constant connection too. Like, it does feel like I could spend, like, all day with her, and then she—once it’s over, she would still be like, “Well, why are we not still—” like, it—we’ve always kind of—my husband and I will joke that she’s got, like, a leaky cup because it’s, like, “Just fill up their cup,” but it doesn’t seem to matter. He used to play with her for, like, two to three hours when she was younger, and then at the end she would just, like, not be satisfied. Like, it didn’t seem like anything was going to, like, fill her cup.

Sarah: And that—you know what, there are kids like that. I remember I had this client once whose son actually said to her, “Mama, all the—all the hours in the world are not enough time with you.” And there are some kids that are really just like that. And, you know, I’m not sure how you respond when she says, like, you know, “But we hardly even got to play,” after you play for three hours. I mean, that playful—like, “Oh my gosh, like, what if we could just play all day?” You know, either, like, playful response of, like, “We could play for 27 hours,” you know, “and—and—and we would still have so much fun together.” Or just pure empathy, you know, like, “Oh no, it just feels like it’s never enough time, is it?”

Joanna: And it almost seems like sometimes when I am empathetic, it almost, like, fuels her anger. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that before from anybody else, but—eh, I don’t know. Like, we had a situation with—like, she was looking for a specific bear last weekend—a teddy bear that she’s missing—because she wanted to bring it to a teddy bear picnic. And so we were sort of, like, you know, we had to get out the door to go to this party. She couldn’t find this bear, and I was, like, you know, offering a lot of empathy, and just, like—the more that I was like, “I know, like, you’re so frustrated; you’re so disappointed that you can’t find your bear,” it was like the more that she was like, “Yeah, and you took it, you hid it, you put it somewhere.” Like, it just—the more empathy I gave, it seemed like the more that she was using it as almost, like, fuel to be upset. Does that make sense? Right.

Sarah: Yeah. No, that’s pretty common. And the thing is, you have to remember that blame is trying to offload difficult feelings. It’s like, “I don’t wanna feel this way, so I’m gonna blame you.” And then—you know, it’s anger—have you ever seen the image of the anger iceberg?

Joanna: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah. So the anger iceberg is, like, the anger is the only thing you see coming out of the water. But underneath the iceberg are all of the more tender feelings, right? And anger is actually a secondary emotion. So you don’t start out by feeling angry. You feel—like, like for her, she maybe was feeling frustrated and disappointed that she couldn’t find her bear. And those are the first feelings. But those more tender feelings are harder to feel, and so anger is often protective. And the tender feelings also set off that—you know, that overwhelm of our emotions registers as a threat to the nervous system, which sets off that fight, flight, or freeze. So there’s all those things going on, right? Like, the blame of, like, trying to offload the feelings; the anger of feeling like it’s easier to go on the offensive than to feel those tender feelings; and then the nervous system getting set off by that overwhelm that registers as a threat, right? It sets off the fight, flight, or freeze. And they’re—they’re kind of all different ways of saying the same thing. And yes, empathy often will help a child—that they get more in touch with those feelings. And I’m not saying that you don’t wanna empathize, um, but just recognize that, you know, the feelings are happening, and when you empathize, they—you know, you’re welcoming the feelings, which sometimes can have that fight, flight, or freeze effect.

Joanna: And would you recommend that I continue to really lean into empathy more and just stay with all of that emotion until it passes?

Sarah: So—totally depends. The other thing I was gonna say is it’s possible—like the situation you just gave me—it’s possible—like, how—were you actually feeling empathetic, or were you trying to just get out the door?

Joanna: I think I was, but at a certain point I was like, “I think, you know, we have two options from here. Like, we can continue to be upset about the bear and it—it will make us late for the party, or at a certain point we can move on and make a new plan,” and, like, “get our—make our way over there.” So, um, is that effective? Yeah, I—I mean, she eventually was able to change gears. But, I mean, it doesn’t feel like real life to just be able to, like, sit in your negative emotions all the time. And I think, like, maybe I struggle with doing that for, like, a long enough period of time to actually let her—let them out.

Sarah: Well, I don’t know—yeah. So, I mean, there’s a difference between welcoming feelings and wallowing in emo—in emotion, I think.

Joanna: Yeah. And she definitely is a wallower, and she almost has really, like, attached so much sadness and frustration and anger to this bear. Like, now she’ll just, like, think about the bear and be like, “Oh, I still can’t find that bear.” Like, she was just, like, you know, exploding about it again this past weekend. So it almost feels like she’s just latching onto it to, like, feel bad there.

Sarah: I mean, some kids—she’s probably not choosing to latch onto it to feel bad, but she probably just has. So, so what I was gonna say is sometimes when kids seem to be wallowing, it’s just that there’s so much there that they haven’t been able to get out on a regular basis. So I think it is just like a full backpack, and there’s just a lot there. And it’s not—it’s probably not just about the bear. It’s probably just like she’s—it’s, you know, processing other older things too. And you don’t have to know what’s in the backpack or try and figure it out. But you might find that if you had more opportunities for her to process feelings, then she might not get so stuck when they do start to come out.

That’s one thing that I would think of. Like—and more laughter should help with that. Like, more laughter and roughhousing to help her sort of process stuff. And also sometimes—so the bear thing reminds me of—some kids will just feel bad, you know, like feel bad sometimes from, like, a full backpack, or maybe they don’t even know what it is, they can’t connect. Or maybe they’re just tired and low-resourced and their brain is kind of like, “Why do I feel bad? Why do I feel bad?” And she’s like, “Oh, the bear.” You know, she remembers, like, the bear. Like, I’ve had clients tell me, my kid will say, like, “I miss Grandpa,” who they never met, who died before they were born—like, just kind of casting around for, like, “Why could I be feeling this way right now? Oh, I know—it’s ’cause I can’t find that bear.”

Or maybe the bear is so important to her that it really is—that she thinks about it and it just makes her feel bad. But I think what you wanna remember when it seems like she’s wallowing is that, you know, getting—like, having empathy. And I actually also did a podcast about this too, with another coaching call, where I talked about, you know, cultivating a certain amount of nonchalance after you feel like you’ve been pretty empathetic and welcomed the feelings. Because I think if we’re too empathetic sometimes—and I do wanna be very careful with this because I don’t want anyone to take this as, like, “Don’t be empathetic”—but, you know, there is a time where you just say, like, “You know what? I hear how upset you are about this, and I get it. And I would be really bummed if I couldn’t find the bear I wanted also. And we have to decide, like, are we gonna stay here and just keep feeling sad about the bear, or should we figure out another plan?” Like what you said, right.

Joanna: Yeah, I have heard you say that before, and that’s been so helpful for her. Mm-hmm. It seems like if I’m not so reactive to her emotions, she realizes that they’re not an emergency either.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean—and that’s a good point too, because I didn’t even ask you, like, how’s your regulation when this is happening? Like, are you getting, like, annoyed, frustrated, upset for her, kind of drawn in? Are you able to, like, kind of center yourself and stay calm?

Joanna: It varies. I would say I currently am the most resourced that I’ve ever been—good with, like, the emotional regulation piece. And then that—I see, like, sometimes she is able to come out of it more quickly, or it just depends on, you know, what her tolerance is at that—at that time. So—

Sarah: Joanna, it might be that, you know, you’re coming out of—almost like you’re coming out of a fog of, you know—you said all the things: like the NICU experience, and then the—and then COVID, and then your new baby, and—and that it might be that you’re really, finally for the first time, kind of getting to tend—you know, look at yourself, your own regulation, and be more present and connected with your daughter. And all these things are gonna start having a little bit of, um, of a snowball effect. And it may be that you’ve just had this, like, seven-year period of difficulty, you know?

Joanna: Oh, that’s horrifying.

Sarah: Well, but the good news is it sounds like things are shifting.

Joanna: Yeah. It really does feel like that. Yeah. You’re—I feel like even if I talked to you a few months ago, I would’ve been like, “Oh, help me.”

Sarah: Well—and that you’re recognizing what you brought—what you bring to the table, and that, you know, things have been fraught with your daughter, and that you’re sort of starting to come out. And—and honestly, also doing that—doing that bedtime—after-school bedtime by yourself five days a week, that’s gonna be tough too. Uh, so you’ve got situ—just that current situation doesn’t sound like it’ll change, but you’re changing what you’re bringing to it.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. Um, if I can maybe just ask you, like, one more little thing?

Sarah: Sure.

Joanna: Maybe this is—it all comes back to, like, wanting a lot of connection, but this is also what kind of drains my battery. She constantly wants to, like, talk to me or ask me questions from, like, the time that she wakes up to the time that she goes to bed. And it will be—like, currently it’s, like, “Would you rather.” It’s like, “Would you rather eat all the food in the world or never eat again?” Uh-huh. In the past it’s been, like, “Guess what’s in my mouth?” But then she always really tries to make it—make me wrong in the circumstance, if that makes sense. Like, I don’t know if that’s just her, like, looking for power or, like, the upper hand, or like—I don’t know. I’m not sure what it is.

Sarah: Well, I mean, if you feel—if you have a sense that she’s looking for power, I would bring that into the roughhousing—where you are the one who’s weak and bumbling and idiotic, and, you know, you’re so slow, and she beats you every time at a race. So I would really try to bring some of that—some of that stuff into your roughhousing where she gets to be—Do you know the kind of stuff I’m talking about? Like, “I bet you can’t—um, you know, I bet you can’t beat me at arm wrestling,” and then, like, you know, you flop your arm over in a silly way, and like, “How are you so strong? Like, I’m gonna beat you next time.” And it’s obviously playful, because probably you are stronger than she is at this point, but, you know—feats of strength or speed, or, you know, figuring things out, and you act like you really don’t know anything. And—but in, of course, in a joking way, so she knows that you’re not—you know, you’re pretending to be all these things, but she still gets to gloat and, like, “Ha, you know, I’m the strongest, I’m the best.” So really giving her that in roughhousing.

And then also, like, real power. Like, I don’t know if she gets to make—what kinds of decisions she gets to make, or, you know, how much—how flexible you are on limits. Because sometimes, as parents, we do set unnecessary limits, which can make our kids, you know—make them look for power in other ways. So really looking at what limits you’re setting and if they’re necessary limits, and—and how you’re setting them. Uh, and also I think it sounds like it’s connection-seeking—like, she just wants you. You know, she wants to know that you’re there and paying attention to her. And so everything else that you’re doing—that we’re talking about—that you’re gonna try to do more—more time with her and get more one-on-one time with her, hopefully that will help too.

And I think it is okay to say, like, after you’ve done, like, 25 “would you rathers,” I just say—like, I used to say to my kids, “You know what? My brain is just feeling really stimulated from so many words. Like, can we have some quiet for a few minutes?” And not—and being very careful to not phrase it like, “You’re talking too much,” or “I don’t wanna listen to—” and I’m exaggerating for effect—but just framing it as, like, your brain and a regulation thing—like, “My brain,” and it is words. Yeah. And so, like, “Do you—should we put some music on?” You know, “Can we—like, think of—can you connect in a way that—let’s listen to a story.” Okay. Something like that where you still, like, keep up connection with her, but—and it might not work. She—she might not be able to stop talking, but you can try it at least.

Joanna: No, that’s a—that’s a really good suggestion. Almost like replacing it with some other kind of stimulation if she’s looking for that in that moment.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think—I think it’s just—I think it’s fair. Like, it’s totally—I, at the end of the day, with people, like, talking at me all day, I sometimes am like—you know, when my kids were younger, I’d be like, “Okay, you know, I—I just need a little—my brain needs a little bit of a break. It’s feeling overstimulated.” So I think just using that language with her.

Joanna: Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you. Well—

Sarah: Yeah, I think you’re—you know, I think that I’ve—that we’ve connected at a point where you’re, like, at—you’re, like, at the—sort of the top of a mountain, you know? And you’ve been, like, having all this struggle and uphill battles. And I think you’ve put—before even we talk—you’ve put a lot of pieces [together] of what—you know, why some of the challenges were. And they do seem to be connection—you know, connection-based, just in terms of, um, you know, her wanting more and you not being as resourced. And so hopefully working on connection is gonna help with that too.

Joanna: Yeah. I’m gonna keep that at top of mind.

Sarah: And your self-regulation too. You said you’re—you know, you’ve been having—you’re more resourced now than you ever have been, so you’re able to work on really staying, like, calm and compassionate in those times when she’s dysregulated. Going back to what I said in the beginning, which is that, you know, the steps for the meltdowns really start with o