The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia

The Partial Historians are back in the 420s BCE and we are wrapping up the decade with some first-class DRAMA! At the centre of it all are the trials of Sempronius and Postumia. The only question is, can you handle it?

Episode 139 – The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia

Fake Elections

The year began with some classic conflict between the patricians and the plebeians. The tribunes of the plebs were FURIOUS when their relatives did not get elected as quaestors. There was only one possible explanation – election fraud!

There was clearly one man to blame: Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. He had been in charge of overseeing the elections and he had rigged the results. Unfortunately, he was also a military tribune and therefore immune from prosecution. But that didn’t mean that his relatives were…

The Trial of Sempronius

The tribunes set their sights on Atratinus’ cousin, Gaius Sempronius. Sempronius was the perfect target. He had been in charge of a DISASTROUS military campaign in 423 BCE. Time for vengeance!

Jean Lemaire c. 1645-1655. Roman Senators and Legates.
The picture shows senators walking though a square attended by lictors. Maybe they're on their way to a trial!

Poor Postumia

Sempronius was not the only person to find themselves on trial in 420 BCE. A Vestal Virgin named Postumia was accused of incestum. Apparently, her clothing was a bit too sexy, and she had a sense of humour. What a horrible combination! Think of the children!

However, incestum was a very serious charge as it put the Romans’ relationship with the gods in jeopardy. It was no joke for Postumia either. Charges like this could lead to live burial for a Vestal.

Tune in to find out whether Sempronius and Postumia manage to emerge victorious from their respective trials.

A modern imagining of Vestal Virgin by sculptor Joseph-Charles Marin 1791-95.
Courtesy of Mary Harrsch on Flickr.

Things to Look Out For:

• Clear signs of our Partiality
• Lengthy digressions on work apparel
• Red lipstick and mini skirts
• Patrician morality par excellence  
• Family rivalry
• Immense excitement to find a woman in our story – at last!
• Dr G’s immense expertise on Vestal Virgins

Need a recap on Sempronius? Check out our previous episodes on 423 BCE and 422-21 BCE.

Our Players 420 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438, 425
• T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos. 431, 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
• L. Furius Sp. f. -n. Medullinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 432, 425
• M. Manlius – f. – n. Vulso (Pat)
• A. Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c. p. 428, 416  

Tribunes of the Plebs

• A. Antistius
• Sex. Pompilius
• M. Canuleius

Interrex

• L. Papirius Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 427, Mil. Tr. c. p. 422

Pontifices

• Sp. Minucius

Vestal Virgin

• Postumia

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Plutarch, de Capienda 89f.
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.44.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Greenfield, P. 2011. Virgin Territory: The Vestals and the Transition from Republic to Principate [Doctoral Thesis, The University of Sydney]
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman

Sound effects thanks to Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios and BBC Sounds.

A statue of a Vestal Virgin in the atrium Vestae (house of the Vestals) in Rome.
Courtesy of Carole Raddato via Wikimedia Commons.

Automated Transcript

An automated transcript of this episode has been provided thank to Otter AI.

Dr Rad  00:16

Welcome to the partial historians,

Dr G  00:20

we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad  00:23

Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G  00:34

And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad  00:43

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G  01:06

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad  01:16

And I am Dr. Red and I'm in a very special t shirt today. Dr. G. My All, roads lead to Rome t shirt.

Dr G  01:26

Are you hoping to sneak into my suitcase to come on a certain trip?

Dr Rad  01:30

I'm just dropping subtle hints.

Dr G  01:34

If I can fit you, I'll take you.

Dr Rad  01:36

Excellent. Excellent.

Dr G  01:37

So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the foundation, the traditional foundation date of 753 BCE. And in our last episode, I think if I remember rightly, we were dealing with 422 BCE, (and 421) and 421. So yeah, go we covered a lot of ground, because I remember the four horsemen being very-  they were stand out for me. So this means that we're going to be talking about we're starting at 420. So real shame that we didn't record this in April.

Dr Rad  02:15

Yes, yes, that's absolutely right. We are recording about 420 today. So to briefly recap, 422 and 421, which is our previous episode, we're interested in good ol conflicts of the orders. Dr. G.

Dr G  02:30

Oh, yes. Well, I love a good conflict of the orders. hasn't this been going on for centuries now?

Dr Rad  02:36

Not quite centuries, almost a century I think. Only there were nearly there. We still got, you know, a couple of centuries to go. It'll fly by the flyway. We won't, we won't be dead at all. By the time we finish.

Dr G  02:51

Everything seemed to swill around the situation with Sempronius, one of the guys that's been sent out with some troops, and he's done seemingly a poor job. And he's then been taken on to trial for being such a bad general. And all of his, all of his lower down cavalry commanders have come to his aid being like, this guy was great. And he did the best he could in a tough situation.

Dr Rad  03:16

Yeah, absolutely. So we do have the situation with Sempronius, which is fallout from seemingly a not great military encounter that Rome had with the Volscians in 423 Sempronius, the unfortunate and perhaps incompetent leader of said military effort, and we're dealing with the fallout of that. And definitely we saw that some of his men came to his assistance when it looked like he was going to be in danger of being prosecuted or something like that. And then we had even more conflict of the orders. I mean, that wasn't really conflict for the orders, except that it was interesting that it was this fight happening with Tribune's of the plebs who were our four horsemen, and they'd been involved in the battle in the previous year. And then Sempronius, who was a patrician, we then got more explicitly into the conflict of the orders in the following year, where we had this debate about could a plebeian become a quaestor? And we had so many interreges, they were coming out of our ears, Dr. G.

Dr G  04:18

And it's been a really weird time. Rome is definitely trying to figure itself out politically, militarily. It's been a rough ride.

Dr Rad  04:27

Yeah, it really has. But there was the resolution was they ended up coming full circle. And going back to the compromise that was put forward, right at the beginning of this debate, which was that you can have a plebeian quaestor. Sure, as in they can run for election, but Will anybody vote for them? Time will tell Dr. G.

Dr G  04:49

Are they gonna be able to put together a sophisticated and well funded campaign? Doubtful. No.

Dr Rad  04:55

All right, we'll see yeah that's really all we need to know about 421 So let's go into 420 V c

Dr G  05:30

so 420 BCE for key listeners who enjoy the smoking of the green leaf now is your time to light up because this is happening all year. We have military tribunes with consular power and many of them I might add our first cab off the rank is Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus a family we know well, yes, the lineage is continuing. And he's had a couple of positions ahead of this one so we've seen this guy before. He is not a surprise. Now. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, also previously has appeared and most recently served together with Cincinnatus as another military Tribune in 425. Yeah, so they've been buddies before and here they are, again, five years later.

Dr Rad  06:33

Lovely. It's cute. Yeah,

Dr G  06:36

We also have Marcus Manlius Vulso, a man for which I don't have any more detail than his name.

Dr Rad  06:43

No, that is that's an unusual name that level so isn't it?

Dr G  06:48

Yeah, I'm not sure it is. I've heard before Yeah. Well, so it's not standing out for me one way or the other. We might have encountered one in the past but I'm not sure.

Dr Rad  06:56

Yeah, the Manlius I recognise.

Dr G  06:59

The Manlius gens, they're doing well for them. Yeah, very manly all the way down their line. Yeah. And then Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. Also, previously a consul in 428. And also apparently a military tribune in the same year.

Dr Rad  07:18

Excellent. So getting the gang back together.

Dr G  07:21

Yay. So there are military Tribune's and then I also have some tribune of the plebs as well. Oh, we have Aulus Antistius, potentially a relation of Tiberius Antistius, the plebeian tribune of 422. So we get another one of the same gens coming through Sextus Pompilius. Yep. Most famous because of the Pompilius gens, which means you definitely of Sabine extraction. Yeah. And Marcus Canulinus, and this is known as a plebeian gens.

Dr Rad  08:05

Why ,I have him as Marcus Canuleius.

Dr G  08:09

it might just be my mispronunciation. I mean, I have clearly two variant spellings in my notes. Now that I know that I'm looking closely at them. So apparently the most famous bearer of the Canuleius name was Gaius Canuleius who was tripped into the plebs in 445. So somebody that we have encountered before, and is the one who introduced the plebiscite on a marriage the repeal to ban the marriage between patricians and plebeians.

Dr Rad  08:46

Well, that's right. I was like I was looking at that name going, it's so familiar. That's a huge thing to have in your family.

Dr G  08:53

He's Yeah, so this guy seems to be a comes from the same gens as that really famous tribune of the plebs from a couple of decades ago at this point, and the family seems to lose prominence after that. So this I don't know if this is the last Canuleius we're gonna see but-er, You heard it here first.

Dr Rad  09:14

Well, they're hanging in it. They've got they've got a fingernail

Dr G  09:19

clutching on to the tribune of the plebs for dear life.

Dr Rad  09:22

Yeah, this is where I think 421 and 420 get a bit blendy because I also have an interrex listed for this year, which is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus who we talked about in our last episode, because he's the one that came in and like, stop this madness. We can't keep having all these interreges. This is crazy.

Dr G  09:45

This is madness. I indeed also have Mugillanus down as interrex for this year. But also, and I have to say, most excitingly, I also have a Pontifex Maximus and a Vestal virgin.

Dr Rad  09:58

I know I have not bothered to do any reading about this because I know that I've got the world leading expert on Vestals and I was like, I don't need to do anything.

Dr G  10:11

I'm happy to take the reins on this tale of woe such as it is.

Dr Rad  10:15

Exactly. Which means you finally have you know, source material. Very exciting.

Dr G  10:20

Look, you'd be surprised about how little I have even.

Dr Rad  10:25

I'm on board whenever you have.

Dr G  10:26

It is a tough year. I'm in a really fellow section in terms of source material. As you know, Dionysius of Halicarnassus is perenially missing and even Diodorus Siculus, who is unreliable at the best of times, but we do like him is also currently unavailable. So

Dr Rad  10:42

that's okay, you know, it's actually this year is actually structured well for us in that most of the action that you wouldn't be aware of happens first, then we get to the Vestal.

Dr G  10:52

Okay, that's exciting. So I'll just tell you the names of these characters and yeah, well let you get into like the the main action for the year which I'm completely at, like lacking. So we've got Spurius Minucius is our Pontifex Maximus. Yeah, and our festival virgin is Postumia.

Dr Rad  11:14

Okay, exciting times. Alright, so let me tell you about 420 BC Dr. G. Nobody remembered anything because of all that stuff they were smoking – no, I'm just kidding.

Dr G  11:27

that explains a lot about what's going on with my source material.

Dr Rad  11:31

So allegedly, we had this period, unfortunately, we're on there where there are and maybe the 420. Who knows where there were lots of interreges, but they managed to resolve that situation. And at the end of that whole process, they come out with military tribunes with consular power. And it's all patricians all the time, Dr. G.

Dr G  11:51

Colour me surprised. I'm shocked. I'm really shocked.

Dr Rad  11:55

I know. So one of these military tribunes with consular power Atratinus Atratinus What do we prefer?

Dr G  12:03

Oh, look, I like Atratinus. But that's just me really. Don't feel wedded the fact that we learned Latin in Australia, it's probably means that we're butchering it a lot. Certainly, I know others would pronounce it differently.

Dr Rad  12:21

Like there's nothing I enjoy more than butchering an ancient language. All right, I'll go to Atratinus or Atratinus then oversees the election of quaestors which had been the sore point the previous year in terms of who gets to be a quaestor and that sort of thing. So there were some keen for plebeians in the race so the tribunes finally be like Yes, finally someone's actually running for something – amazing!

Dr G  12:47

they got up and said like we're going to abolish the whole thing because you none of you are even trying what's the point of view even having a chance

Dr Rad  12:55

Exactly. You're embarrassing us you're embarrassing the whole day in class, whatever that is. One of them was a guy called Aulus Antistius. Son of a tribune of a pleb No, son of a tribune of the plebs.

Dr G  13:13

Okay, so the Antistius that I have listed down as the tribune of the plebs is quite possibly either running for quaestor as well, or running for quaestor instead?

Dr Rad  13:25

I would say it's probably his son. Yeah, I would say it his son.

Dr G  13:31

Okay. Somebody lower down on our hypothetical cursus honorum that we don't exist.

Dr Rad  13:36

And then and then we also have a brother of a tribune of a tribunes of the plebs, the brother of Sextus Pompilius.

Dr G  13:43

Oh, what's his name?

Dr Rad  13:44

I don't know. Actually, it just says it's just as his brother. I mean, yeah.

Dr G  13:50

Pompilius the other one, we'll call him Pompilius Secundus.

Dr Rad  13:54

Bro Pomp. Bro Pompey, that's what we're going to call him. Yeah, so though these guys are obviously connected to people in power, because you know, they have these connections with guys who have either held the office of Tribune or are currently holding the office of Tribune. The people still couldn't resist the lure, the glow, that was coming off the patrician candidates because they have the blood of mighty consuls running in their veins. I mean, you can see it in their blue veins.

Dr G  14:30

When I get a wound on the front, little consuls come out instead of blood drops.

Dr Rad  14:38

That's exactly right. So as a result, they don't get to look in. They ran and they fail.

Dr G  14:44

Damn, what are we going to see some power to the people around you is

Dr Rad  14:48

what kicks off the problem because the tribune of the plebs are ropable, particularly Antistius and Pompilius understandably, because they like

Dr G  14:59

yeah They were pretty invested

Dr Rad  15:01

the hell like our guys are just as connected as the other guys. This is actually a burn to us. We feel it we feel it because it's like an insult that their connections to us is somehow not the same as a console we're not good enough for you. Like you only have to have certain kinds of connections in this world deaths guesting Okay, so they're not happy at all that like the tribune of the plebs have done so much for Rome. They serve so well. And what about the politicians? They are douchebags they've done nothing.

15:42

They screw up all the time.

Dr Rad  15:44

The patricians were such douchebags How could no plebeian ever be chosen military military tribute with concealed power? And now also not be chosen as frickin quaestor? What, I'm not good enough to do your paperwork?

Dr G  16:00

Look, I think this might in part be related to the way voting is conducted in the ancient Roman world. And I'll caveat this being like, like everything with this period of Roman history, we don't know much, for sure. But the voting system as it develops, seems to really be a top down approach. So everybody who's there, who is a citizen who is male gets to have a vote, and that's fine, but you're voting in groups. And those groups are voted from the most senior, and hence the most patrician down, and it's first pass the post. So by the time anybody might even be thinking about bringing in a vote for a plebeian candidate, chances are all the positions have been filled by patricians voting in their buddies.

Dr Rad  16:48

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. So I don't know why there's no outrage. It's like the system's rigged against you

Dr G  16:52

guys. Yeah, the system is rigged. That's that's entirely the point. Yeah, exactly. But

Dr Rad  16:56

they, they just can't get over it. Because they're like, they obviously had campaigned hard on behalf of their relatives. So like, we were personally campaigning, personally asking people for them to vote for our relatives, our son, our brother. Okay. How is this possible that after everything we've done for the people, it hasn't worked? And their conclusion is this strategy. There is no doubt about it. Aulus Sempronius Atratinus has done something dodgy, in fact, a fake election, someone called fake election here.

Dr G  17:35

I'm here to tell you that these results will not stand because they cannot. Somebody made them up.

Dr Rad  17:42

I was. So it actually, I laughed. And then I felt sad when I read this because I was like, Oh, my God, the fact that painful? Yeah, like fake elections is

Dr G  17:53

it's kind of like the oldest trick in the book, which is why you have to have a rigorous independent body overseeing electoral process. The only way to get it done right. Yeah.

Dr Rad  18:01

And to be fair, it's not that in the past, there haven't been people who have tried to fake elections or people who have successfully faked elections.

Dr G  18:11

Are you telling me that corruption is baked into the human condition?

Dr Rad  18:14

I just thought I should caveat that with the fact that I'm more sceptical of claims to fake elections, because I live in the age of Trump just in case anybody's listening to this in 15 years. And I don't for a second believe that elections in America have been faked. Like now. But I acknowledge that Sure. There have in the past been such things.

Dr G  18:36

Yeah, historically, there have been cases of fraudulent elections and, you know, not dissimilar to things that we've seen across the 20th and even the 21st century, in some situations, but not we would note in the US,

Dr Rad  18:51

yeah, I just think that Trump is a very dangerous person, and that's probably why it's not getting elected. God, God can only hope that it continues that way.

Dr G  19:00

Time will tell Yeah.

Dr Rad  19:03

political stance over

Dr G  19:07

Just a little excerpt on our own leftism again.

Dr Rad  19:10

You know, these days, I don't even think it's leftism, I just think it's called being sane and recognise, recognising a dangerous precedent when you see them, Ah judgments, judgments, judgments. Anyway. So unfortunately, the tribunes couldn't really do anything about this situation. They can't go after Atratinus. Not just because he's smugly, sitting there pretending that he's innocent, blah!, but also because he is a military tribune with consular power, and therefore his office affords him some protection.

Dr G  19:44

Oh, does it now. Well, he should have Imperium, but it doesn't mean that he's body's inviolable. Now somebody could run up to him and punch him in the face.

Dr Rad  19:53

If only someone would do that to Donald Trump. No, don't make him a martyr, leave him untouched. Anyway, so instead, the tribunes decide to go to go after Atratinus' cousin who is our old friend Gaius Sempronius from  423.

Dr G  20:17

When in doubt return to the guy that failed on the battlefield as if he hasn't experienced enough humiliation.

Dr Rad  20:23

He thought he got away with it but not this time. So they decided they're going to prosecute him with the help of another Tribune, one Marcus Canuleius for his conduct in the war against the Volsci. The  Tribunes also decided they're going to bring up the way that the Senate is splitting up the public lands because Gaius Sempronius had always been against this – shocker. Against the splitting up of public lands in a particular way – what?

Dr G  20:57

Yeah, I mean, we're really playing into the stereotypes this year out, we goodness me patricians. What are you doing to yourselves?

Dr Rad  21:04

Well, the reason why they brought this up, it's very strategics. Very clever, actually very devious. They know that he's held this stance on public lands. And so what they're hoping is it'll be like a red rag to a bull. They're thinking he's going to either act a certain like he's going to a couple of ways he could either maintain his attitude that he's historically held, and therefore, piss off the plebeians, which will obviously probably not work in his favour with this whole prosecution thing, right,

Dr G  21:33

considering they're coming after him because they're already annoyed. Yes, yeah,

Dr Rad  21:37

exactly. Or he would back down on this issue, and the patricians would be like class traitor, and stop caring about him.

Dr G  21:46

I see the own political wedge. All right. Yeah. I'm excited to see which way he goes.

Dr Rad  21:52

Okay. So Sempronius decides that it's most important to do right by Rome. To hell with his own future.

Dr G  22:03

That is not revealing about what his stance is going to be

Dr Rad  22:06

okay. So you basically says To hell with my own future, I'm going to stick to my guns over the land issue. So he goes with Option A. He doesn't want the tribunes to get any credit for anything that they're doing here. So he points out that the tribunes actually have been very cynical themselves. They're actually care about the division of public lands. They're just using this to get him so he sees through their plan because he's also deviously clever.

Dr G  22:37

I mean, he would say that though, but historically, the tribune of the plebs have always been interested in land redistribution. So there's an easy comeback for that claim.

Dr Rad  22:46

I know. I'm like well, okay, like maybe maybe they are being very clever in the way that they use this issue. But there's a reason that they bring it up because you've spoken on this issue in the past. It is an ongoing issue, Sempronius. Anyway, so he decides I'm not going to be cowed. He says they can try all their dirty tricks, stupid tribunes. I think they're so clever. But I I am brave. I am patrician. I will not back down not for one second.

Dr G  23:17

A man's asking for a punch in the face.

Dr Rad  23:20

Exactly. Well, I mean, yes, but of course the patricians are just like we're falling even more in love with you. Sempronius

Dr G  23:27

Oh, no,

Dr Rad  23:28

I just gonna gaze into those cold, lacking in empathy eyes and

Dr G  23:34

be like, That's my man. That's my patrician right there.

Dr Rad  23:38

And he says the Senate should not value me or any individual so much that they aren't making the right choices for Rome. They should always be acting in Rome's best interests. Okay. So getting even more selfless by the second.

Dr G  23:57

Well, and there's a nice sort of didacticism built into that. I shouldn't say didacticism get all of my syllables out. Well, I'm gonna say something. Because part of what is happening here is this is kind of like a training manual for patricians, in some respect, this kind of source material, because it's, it's like, well, if you want to be in this very elite group, part of what you have to do is you have to decide what's best for Rome. And they don't make this sort of critical distinction that maybe what's best for Rome might also just always be what's best for them as as the elite, but this idea that somehow the way that you frame things rhetorically is around what is best for the city, and hence for

Dr Rad  24:42

everything. Yeah, exactly. So Sempronius then has to trot off to his trial. Let's see how this works out for him. So he decides to defend himself naturally. I mean, who could do a better job clever? Yeah. Although of course, this is not a is not necessarily super unusual in ancient Rome and standards like usually, if you're watching a television show these days, and a character makes a choice to defend themselves. It's either because they're a hero and a genius, or they're the villain.

Dr G  25:14

Yeah, they either know everything about the law and they gotta be fine. Or they do nothing about the the law and it's going to be a spectacular failure.

Dr Rad  25:23

I mean, obviously, as you say, we can't really speak to what's going on in room at this point in time in terms of exactly what it patricians education looks like. But if I'm using what I know from later on, he would be trained in public speaking, and he would have some experience with rhetoric. So

Dr G  25:38

he would Yeah, he would not only have that rhetorical training, one would assume but also be well versed in the laws at play. So that's part of that's part of the elite education if you like, so. Yeah,

Dr Rad  25:52

yeah, exactly. So the senators, of course, because they love him so much, because he's just been super honourable and selfless throughout this whole affair. As far as they're concerned. They tried very hard to soften the plebs up before a vote, you know, for his verdict is rendered, however, it doesn't work. Yay. And so he ended up being fined 15,000. mighty fine asses.

Dr G  26:21

Yes, a, it sounds like a significant sum, but it is. I guess. Maybe it is.

Dr Rad  26:30

A decent sum if we think that we don't sound like a reasonable amount of money to be fine. Yeah, it is a decent sum. If we think about we actually had a trial not that long ago, when again, when we were dealing with the aftermath of 423 in the spectacular mess that Sempronius made, there was another patrician who found themselves on trial, Postumius for his conduct in battle from a few years before 423. And he was fined 10,000 assets, so

Dr G  26:54

Okay. All right. So there's more it is this is this is upping the ante in terms of fining?

Dr Rad  27:00

Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. Anyway, so that is I hope the last we hear Sempronius Because he has been haunting us.

Dr G  27:10

He's had a rough trot these last few years. Yeah, I guess we'll he will have to pay his fine. Either that or he runs away to try and find a way out of it. Stay tuned.

Dr Rad  27:19

Yeah, exactly. Now, this is where I segue to a Vestals story, huh? Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so we've got a Vestal virgin being charged with unchastity and I'm not gonna say any more, I'm gonna let you tell me.

Dr G  27:37

All right, so our key characters at play here is the Pontifex Maximus, Spurius Minucius, and a Vestal virgin Postumia. So we can assume that she comes from the Postumius gens. So one of these elite patrician families, and that's fine. But she finds herself and we don't know, quite initially, like how that might happen. It doesn't seem to be attached necessarily to the other politics that's going on. But it is often the case that the way that Vestal virgins are treated, does link in to the other politics that their family members and gens colleagues are experiencing

Dr Rad  28:16

Well, funnily enough, I mean, we were just talking about whatever we do have a Postumius. Yeah, yeah. And he was just he was just found himself in trouble and was fine, like, not long before. And I actually think I think we were talking about the fact that it seems like there actually are some problems with the Postumius family, at this point in the republic in terms of they seem to be, I think it's them in and the other family that they're allied to, which I think is the Sempronii. Maybe it's one of them. But anyway, yeah, it seems like the Postumii and their their allies might have been going through a bit of a tough time and potentially been involved in some sort of rivalry for who's going to be the preeminent patrician ganz in Rome at this point in time.

Dr G  28:58

Yeah. And it seems like one of the things that can happen to Vestal virgins is that they get dragged into that broader politics, which makes sense. They're elite women, drawn from elite families, and they have a legacy of continuity, that is not the same as what happens for the male members of their family. So what we what we tend to see in the political arena directly is that people hold posts for about a year. They get brought in, they do their thing, and they flew back out again, and there's a new set of elections and some new patricians come in. Yes, and you can have repeats of people over the years, that's fine. But there is always a system of choosing them. Again, it's not like they have a legacy where they just keep going, not in this period of Rome's history, but for vestals. It's quite different because they're selected for ritual purposes. And even though ritual purposes is always sort of in a relationship with political purpose, their choosing is done very differently and The length of time that they're in their role is very different as well. So they're chosen quite young, between the ages of six and 10. And they serve for a minimum of 30 years in the role. And these are visibly public women in the sense that they have things that they are tasked to do that they have to be present in the public space for. And this is not to suggest that Roman women in general weren't in the public space. They definitely were. But people are expecting to see the Vestals at certain events, they have

Dr Rad  30:34

a they have an actual public role to perform. And then

Dr G  30:38

they're not just out and about doing some shopping or going from place to place and things like that, you know, they're, they've got a place to be, and I've got a task to do. And their relationship to the gods is an important one for ensuring the broader Pax deorum that Rome subscribes to, which is to be in right relationship with the divine. Yeah, and

Dr Rad  31:00

certainly compared to other elite women. And like, I think we can agree that obviously, the lower down the class you go, the less anybody cares, like what you do in terms of what that you know, how you're conducting yourself in public. But for our leet women of this time, it would seem that the ideal is for them to be quite circumspect with their behaviour in public and certainly to have a level of seclusion to their lives, in terms of who they're interacting with, what time of day, they're interacting with people and that kind of stuff.

Dr G  31:30

Yeah, definitely. And women sort of fall under the protection of their partner familiarise, generally speaking. So this means that those women are under the power of a broader father figure that might be their direct father, it might be the grandfather further up, whoever is the chief man of the family at that point in time, or is the oldest guy, but the Vestals it's a little bit different, because once they are brought into the Vestal virgin fold, they are removed from their natal family in a technical sense, which is interesting. But it's obviously an also an incomplete kind of process, because it's not like they changed their name or anything. They retain the name that is suggestive of the gins they belong to. So everybody knows which family they come from. Sure, but there's a sort of technicality where they no longer fall under the potestas of their pater familiarise. They now fall under the potestas of their Pontifex Maximus.

Dr Rad  32:27

Yes. Still a man in the picture.

Dr G  32:30

There's always a man in the picture.

Dr Rad  32:32

Yeah, certainly, as you've highlighted, particularly as we go later, in time in Rome's history, we still see them having family loyalty and being, as you said, being caught up in family affairs, and I checked it, it was the Postumius and the Quinctii that I was talking about. But yeah, as you say, they do still have those ties to their birth families. Yeah.

Dr G  32:56

Yeah, definitely. I mean, you can take the kid out of the family, but can you take the family out of the kid? So Postumia is going around doing her business, but she does find herself accused of this crime that's very particular called in incestum, which is often translated as unchastity, because we really don't have a good word to describe the semantic field, for incestum in English. Unchastity sounds unwieldy? And indeed it is. So incestum, this covers both sort of behaviours, it covers appearance, and there's a sense in which it ties into broader social concepts about morality, basically, and it's like, are you behaving in the right kind of way? Are you appearing in the right kind of way? Do you seem to have a modest connection between the way you are in the world and the way that people perceive you, and it sort of functions as covering everything from the thoughts of the person involved, to the way in which they behave with their body in the physical realm, right, so it covers all sorts of things. So in custom is often thought about as just being a loss of virginity, but it covers much more than that, okay. And we can see that instantly when it comes to Postumia, because what she's accused of is basically adorning herself in a way that suggests that, you know, she's a little bit open and free in her demonstration of her personality. She has she is described in Plutarch as having a ready laugh and over bold talk when she's in men's company. Now, it might be the case that she also has already laugh, over bold talk when she's in women's company, but the men aren't paying attention to that. So that's not what she's accused of. It may just be her personality,

Dr Rad  34:53

a woman having a personality I don't think so. That's not appropriate. Please put that away. Nobody wants to see it here.

Dr G  35:01

that personality, she seems to be having a good time at this party and I cannot abide by that something must be going wrong. Exactly. Yeah. So the other thing that she's got going on is that she has a push on for dressing attractively goodness knows what that means. Chances are she's just dressing the way that's comfortable for her. And much like in the modern day, a woman's dress does not tell you anything about what's going on with her personally. Not an invitation.

Dr Rad  35:30

Is she wearing a miniskirt? I don't know.

Dr G  35:33

I don't know. I don't know. But somebody's found her attractive and that this becomes her problem then because she gets accused of this crime of incestum. And the problem within custom is because it's it sort of covers everything from inappropriate dress, you know, being a little bit of a vivacious all the way up to lost virginity. The ultimate punishment for incestum is being buried alive.

Dr Rad  36:04

And oh my goodness, it seems like an overreaction to some red lipstick. I mean,

Dr G  36:08

For that mascara, you must die? Yes. Yeah, it's a real problem. The Romans, they sort of they go a bit overboard with this kind of stuff. So the problem from the Roman perspective, and the way that they sort of understand these things, is that if, indeed Postumia is guilty of incestum, that means that the relationship with the gods is not right. It has been severed in a particular way because her behaviour in the physical realm, the things she thinks, what she wears, how she does things, all of those sorts of things contribute to her maintaining her responsibility within that broader sense of the Pax deorum. Right. So there are six Vestals, they all have to behave as appropriately as possible from the Roman perspective of what is appropriate for them. And heaven forfend. You should have a ready laugh or some over bold talk.

Dr Rad  37:07

I do actually like the translation of the view that I was reading it says that she got into trouble because of her clothing as you've highlighted, but also the amazing freedom of her wit.

Dr G  37:20

Yeah, like she likes she likes a good sneaky joke. So yeah, I

Dr Rad  37:25

think this for me was like a code of if either you or Dr. G wherever transported back to ancient Rome to become Vestals, you would definitely die.

Dr G  37:35

immediately be buried alive. This is why you do not time travel. Okay.

Dr Rad  37:43

Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a great ide