The Messy City Podcast

Social media is an unlikely place to find truly positive and optimistic people. But occasionally you find one. Today’s example: the charming and determined Coby Lefkowitz, whose relentless optimism can only rub off on you.Coby is a developer in New York state, and a prolific writer, poster and speaker on the value of beauty in the built environment. He’s written a book called “Building Optimism” and has a Substack by the same name. In his Substack, you can read more about his forthcoming project in Kingston, NY, and what all he’s trying to accomplish.Coby and I discuss the role of optimism in a longer, healthier life, whether or not building beautifully is actually more expensive, and the intriguing benefits of thinking of your social media audience as just yourself and your Mom. Coby’s story is also a great example of how a young person can gain valuable experience working for someone else for a few years, grinding it out, and refining your skills before embarking on your own.You can find Coby on X/Twitter here.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We take a break from our routine conversations today to have some fun, and talk about the wonders of travel hacking with my sister, Cindy Weir. Cindy epitomizes how to really leverage having a system for travel hacking, as she made the most of her small business to rack up points. It’s paid off incredibly for her, as she’s traveled to 22 countries in just the last five years, in addition to doing so in style.We go over how she got there, some of the many little tips and tricks we’ve learned over the years, and even share insider knowledge on airline lounges, lodging, and more.Are you someone that loves to travel? Do you own a small business or have an active side hustle? If you can say yes to both of those, then you need to listen to how Cindy it, and you can as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Longtime friend-of-the-pod Abby Newsham returns, on her hiatus from the popular Upzoned podcast. Abby is a practicing planner in Kansas City with Olsson Associates. Abby is very active working with communities leading planning charrettes, and we talk at length about what a charrette actually is, the value of it, and why doing charrettes can actually give you hope that people can solve problems together.Then we talk about Billy Cooney’s article that was republished in Southern Urbanism, called, “Zoning Won’t Save Us,” which is basically on piece on why we over-rely on technocratic solutions to problems that are actually very human. I might say, you can’t solve a culture problem with a technical manual.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the perils of being in a profession or field for many years is how you see beyond simple dualities. By that I mean, you hear people argue confidently and vehemently about X vs Y, but you know there’s actually a Z they’re not even thinking about. Sometimes people talk about this as a “third way” solution. I confess that my whole life and career I’ve mostly been interested in those “third” ways, since I find they tend to have much more wisdom and insight than the other two.This came to mind recently when I was very kindly asked to speak with a group from ULI-Nashville about starter homes - the need, the barriers and the solutions. Because I can’t help myself, I opted to talk more about what I think we mean by starter homes, and some options for them that don’t get enough play in the conversation.This episode is a longer version of that talk, including the three different ways I look at starter homes. The issue is very timely, and it’s critical. We’re having a terrible time getting people into home ownership right now. A lot of this I covered in a previous conversation with Charlie Bilello, on the financial causes and barriers. But I’m at heart still an architect, so I think a lot about buildings and building types as part of this, and search for ways to talk about the problem in concrete terms.Let me know what you think in the comments. What type of starter home do you wish to have, or did you have? How about your parents and grandparents? What is truly missing in the marketplace, and how do we get to solutions in your opinion?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the great trends in housing from recent decades has been the revived interest in micro-communities, especially those organized around shared courtyards. I first started to learn about this in the late 1990s, and am delighted to say it’s really picked up steam since then.Ross Chapin has been at the forefront of all this, and taught many of us how to do it well. In this episode, Ross talks about how in some sense he accidentally got into doing this kind of work, how it changed his practice, and then importantly we explore key approaches to design and details that make it all work.Ross likes to say, “If you’re in your happy place, you’re going to sing.” But do we achieve that just by lining up a bunch of buildings around a lawn space? No, the details really matter, and Ross takes us through how to balance security and connection, how to think about layers of space, and how to design small homes and spaces that feel great.Every once in a while, I get in trouble with diehard YIMBY (Yes In My Backyard) activists because I insist that design of housing matters, and we need to build housing that actually satisfies human needs. Yes, we need to make it vastly easier to build just about everything. But too often we overlook human well being, and ignore aspects of our human nature that determine success or failure in new developments. Ross Chapin has blazed a path for all of us to better understand this all. Take a listen.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy returns for his third appearance on the show, as Jason now works in North Canton, Ohio as the Deputy Director of Administration. Jason has also gotten more active on LinkedIn in recent months, with his usual provocative and insightful thoughts on a variety of topics. I highly suggest you look him up!We hit on why a huge supply of older homes may not be an advantage, especially in a weak housing market, the challenges of population decline (and why people shouldn’t be so blase about it), and what it might take to actually recruit people to the region. We also manage to discuss my pet issue as it relates to the management of cities - at what scale is best for communities to operate? What’s it like on the inside, working at larger and smaller scales?Jason is also always thoughtful on the big picture and what he sees happening in the culture and the country. We talk about why he thinks this is a big moment for a lot of change.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

After three years of podcasting, I share some thoughts on why I do this, and what I hope to achieve and share. Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t - either is fine, really. But my focus is and will continue to be on people who take concrete action, not on obsessive policy wonkery. It’s not that policy wonkery doesn’t matter - it’s just that too many people waste too much time focusing on it, when life has so many more productive ways to pass the day or the years.Similarly, my focus is on the so-called Flyover Country. It’s what I care about, it’s what I love, it’s the people and places I want to succeed. If that’s not your cup of tea, if that limits the reach of this Substack and podcast, that’s just fine. It’s not possible to be all things to all people, and each of us has to find where to direct our intentions. In this episode, I share a story about St. Joseph, Missouri, and how it ties to this focus and a mindset of what really makes a difference in life.Live your life somewhere that needs you and wants you.Build things. Create life and activity. It’s what we are meant to do.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

For a guy that never intended to be a developer, Steve Nygren is having a remarkable impact on development and so much more. Steve led the development of Serenbe, which is a “biophilic” community southwest of Atlanta. This story is nothing short of remarkable. Even if nothing more had happened than getting 500+ property owners that control about 60 square miles of land to agree on a framework for future development, that alone would be incredible.But when you start to learn more and experience the town of Serenbe itself, it becomes quickly apparent this is a model worth emulating. Serenbe employs a more historic model of a rural village that is walkable and fairly dense, mixed with land set aside for agriculture and experiencing nature. Along the way, the community has touched the world of regenerative agriculture and New Urbanism both, along with a deep dive into thinking about healthy living.Steve talks about using your influence when you have the opportunity, and how to help the next generation. His book, “Start In Your Own Backyard: Transferring Where We Live with Radical Common Sense” dives deep into this philosophy and work. I would add, he’s also got a lot to share about how to bootstrap a large, master planned development.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the mantras of small or incremental development workshops for years has been, “no one is coming to save you.” The solution to your neighborhood’s or community’s problem isn’t some outside force. It’s you. A similar mantra has been, “Brooklyn doesn’t need your butt.” Make it more colorful at your own leisure. We are often attracted by the allure of the sexy place, but it’s the not-sexy places that really need time, attention and effort from people who care.This episode gave me a chance to talk with someone who feels both those mantras deeply, and is doing something about it. Justin Pregont, from Pomeroy Development in Atchison, Kansas has taken up the mantle himself. He’s solving problems through real estate in his town, and in other rural towns across the state of Kansas. Justin was eager to see the types of interesting buildings and tenants he saw in bigger markets in his own town. So after realizing no one else was going to do it, he decided to figure it out himself. There’s a lot of inspiration, and a lot of hard reality in this episode. Maybe you think, I live in California or New York or Florida - what can I possibly learn from someone in small-town Kansas? Give it a listen, and then let me know.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the most shocking pieces of information I’ve seen in the last year is how high the average age of all homebuyers has become. Depending on the source, I’ve seen between 59 and 62 years old. This is the *average* age. We’ve never seen a housing market quite like this, so I turned to Charlie Bilello, the Chief Market Strategist for the firm Creative Planning to help me understand it better. While I talk at length about the regulatory, design and policy aspects of housing on the podcast, Charlie is an expert in the financial side.We trace a bit of the history of how we changed the idea of housing from shelter to a financial product, and then hit on how those policy changes have created the mess we are in today. Charlie has a wealth of ideas that are admittedly unpopular, but could go to great lengths to fix the housing market over the short and long term.Along the way, we talk about fifty year mortgages, the impact of this issue on everyone under forty years old, the concentration of wealth with Baby Boomers, and why it’s so hard to make changes.If you want more from Charlie, check out his excellent YouTube channel.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

About forty years ago, the New Urbanism came on the scene with bold and creative ideas for building entirely new towns. The founders of the movement intended to prove that we could really build beautiful, walkable new places in America, much like some of our historic norms. Those early communities captured incredible attention, far beyond their actual size. And they’ve influenced a couple generations of people in the planning and development world.But it’s also true that most of the new places built were fairly modest in scale. Seaside, Florida, the famous community on the Florida panhandle, is just sixty acres in size. Many other new communities were the size of a suburban subdivision, or a smaller master-planned community. This isn’t a knock on the projects, it’s just the reality of what could be achieved and who the clients were.In recent years, an even bigger and more audacious proposal has come forward called California Forever. The founders have acquired over 50,000 acres in the Bay Area in Solano County. I speak with Gabriel Metcalf, the Head of Planning, to discuss the plans for this new community - the whys, whats and hows. This is a massive effort, and one that’s intentionally trying to renew notions of what can be done in a state that’s become famously difficult in which to build.Gabriel and I talk about not just the specifics of the proposed community, but how this effort fits into the historic context of new towns, and what he sees as precedents. Can we still build new places in America that are inspiring and solve 21st century problems? And what do new towns say about our existing cities and their struggles? We discuss all this and more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Andrew Burleson asks us to think about, “what is the system that creates space for people to live?” Systems thinking may seem terribly wonky, and in reality, it is. But systems thinking gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and a whole host of ideas that underpin western civilization. Systems thinking was behind the movement that created administrative city planning and zoning in the 19-teens and 20s. YOU might not be thinking about systems, but someone else is. So the question is, what kind of systems do we want and need, that produce the best outcomes for human beings?Andrew is a man of many hats, not the least of which is he’s the Board Chair for Strong Towns. Beyond that, he’s a terrific thinker in his own right, and writes a Substack called The Post-Suburban Future. This episode is an outgrowth of a post he wrote called, “Could we create land use rules that work better for everyone?” If the episode intrigues you, read the post, too. He goes into even more detail with images there.The main focus of our conversation is a notion I described a few years ago, which is we need to “unleash the swarm” to solve our housing and development issues. Andrew does an exceptional job of describing the problem (all development now is discretionary and professionalized), and that our land use regulations essentially require stasis. Stasis sounds comforting to many, but it actually works against our intentions when practiced in reality.In this episode, we talk about how to de-professionalize housing, which is a phrase I really like, and how to drive incremental change by the context of a block or neighborhood. Andrew’s phrase that I love is, “the individual project is small, but the collective output is enormous.” As I reflected on that, it occurred to me that’s the entire spirit of the American experience, and one we’ve gotten away from to our detriment.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Right off the top, I must say I always enjoy talking with Seth Zeren. Seth fits the mold of most of my favorite people, in that he’s a deep thinker AND a do-er. His ruminations are baked in the reality of trying to actually build things every day of the week, and he operates from a deep set of principles for placemaking. In other words, he really tries to get things done and done well - not just talk about them. Oh how I wish more people in the world of “advocacy” could be like Seth and also get their hands dirty building and developing. But that’s a story for another day.Seth wrote a piece on his Substack, Build the Next Right Thing, not long ago called “Two Great Tastes that Taste Great Together.” In that piece, he outlines what he sees as the strengths and weaknesses of both Strong Towns and the emerging Abundance movement, and how they can learn from and accentuate each other. I found it fascinating enough to want to talk about it all with him.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A few months ago, we lost Leon Krier, one of the all-time greats in the world of architecture and urban design. I’m joined by Dan Parolek of Opticos Design to reflect on Krier’s work and influence, and his personal experiences working with him on multiple projects. Krier’s work and his many drawings have been foundational for so many of us that came through the world of New Urbanism. His simple, elegant way of dissecting what’s wrong with modern cities angered a lot of people in the architecture and planning establishment, but appealed to so many of us that knew something was wrong. In the end, there’s almost nothing about Krier’s work that should be controversial. He approached everything from the perspective of what is actually good for human beings. He felt we could and should learn from the acquired wisdom of the past and generations of people before us. That any of that should be controversial says so much about the era in which we live and how the design professions have mutated over the years.If you don’t know Krier, I hope this is an introduction. Please go check out his books. They’re incredibly easy to understand and read, and many are good for a laugh, too.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Chuck Marohn of Strong Towns joins me in the studio to dive deeply into the world of housing finance and housing policy, fresh on the heels of his book, Escaping the Housing Trap: The Strong Towns Response to the Housing Crisis. For an architect and engineer to dive into this world might seem anathema to economists, but we go there anyway. The topics range from the thirty year mortgage and its distortions on the housing market to yield curve control to how social trust impacts the whole conversation. And we ask “do we actually have enough housing?” Coming soon I’ll have an episode about Leon Krier and his impact on so many discussions for architecture, planning and design today, but for now Chuck and I talk about one aspect of his ideas: height limits. Naturally, we focus on how that plays out in Washington, D.C.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I’ve been an avid podcast listener since the early days of podcasting. It’s probably one area where I was a bit of an early adopter for technology. My guess is this is in part due to the fact that I grew up listening to a lot of radio, especially radio shows in the car when my parents were driving. So I suppose you can say I’ve always been interested in the audio side of conversations and entertainment.Back a few years ago, my brother finally nudged me into trying to do a podcast, after he’d gotten his started. His is all about the Mississippi River and the culture, environment and communities along it. Take a listen, it’s really good! He’s an incredible wealth of information about the river, and was even featured recently on Rick Steves’ podcast.But when Dean got me started, I wasn’t sure exactly how this would go, or if I’d enjoy having a podcast. Now here I am a few years later, with thousands of subscribers, and a milestone in episode #100. It’s been a wild ride, and getting more enjoyable all the time.So for this one, I decided to have some fun with two of my good buddies - Jason Carter-Solomon and Shomari Benton. Both have been on before, and both frequently offer great insights into life as well as the sorts of topics I delve into routinely - planning, development, design and small-scale real estate investment.We take some time on this episode to look back at our own lives, and we get a little personal. They even bring the questions to me, as we discuss our “why” for doing what we do, talk about career regrets, and think about what the future holds for each of us. I hope you enjoy it - we had a lot of fun doing this episode.Thanks so much for listening to these first 100 episodes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One thing that’s really obvious when you talk with Johnny Youssef is that he’s just a very positive and happy guy. And, frankly, it’s amazing what he’s accomplished at a still-young age. Johnny started his journey in Egypt, and eventually landed in Kansas City as a small developer and rental property owner. We talk about how he focused on the not-sexy parts of our region, and quickly built an income portfolio that has served him well.Johnny is the closest thing to a social media star that I’ve had on the show. In fact, almost everything we talk about can be seen on his channels, and I’d certainly recommend checking out his videos. In particular, his story of buying and renovating and old church here in Midtown KC is fantastic.There’s so much to learn from people like Johnny that just get in the game, take risks, and build. It’s a spirit we could use a lot more of, and in Johnny’s case I can’t wait to see what else he accomplishes.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Kevin’s note: Apologies on the audio quality. Riverside did something funky to this episode, and I did my best to correct it.We all love to study success, and learn how to emulate it. Allan Branch likes to study failure. He studied it for his businesses, and for his city. Remarkably, it’s helped lead Allan to a lot of success in all his endeavors.Allan traces his roots from art school and family entrepreneurship to software and building businesses, to literally building buildings in his hometown. Of course, that’s not enough, so Allan decided to run for Mayor as well. And won.There are Allans in every city and town in America. And yet, very few of them actually have his success, or take the initiative to help fix local politics. I wish more would, as we’d all be better for it. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Nolan Gray is the author of the very successful book, “Arbitrary Lines: How Zoning Broke the American City and How to Fix It.” If you’re in the planning and zoning world, you’ve likely heard of it or read it. If you haven’t, run right out and do it.Most of this episode focuses on the unique nature of Houston, Texas, and its approach to land use regulation. Often-scorned by planners because the city doesn’t have zoning, it actually provides a fascinating alternative to a process we know by now doesn’t work very well. And we dissect a few of the fears related to what might happen without zoning.Nolan has a deep knowledge of the history of zoning, and we touch a bit on how things came to be in the US context. Trust me - it’s not as boring as it sounds, but it’s also really important to know that this is a fairly young idea and institution. My editorial comment has always been: this was all invented by other humans, not all that long ago, and we shouldn’t be so afraid of even radical changes. It’s not the Ten Commandments, folks.We can dream of a repeal of Euclid v Ambler, even if we never get it. And who knows, we might even get to a result that’s actually more democratic in nature than what we have today.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

A developer colleague recently said to me, “I’ve only lived and worked in an era where cities are getting better. Now, I’m not so sure that’s the case anymore.” His comment along with a whole lot of other inputs got me to thinking - what if he’s right? Today, I consider a potentially dark path for big American cities. Are we in the midest of a new era of decline and retreat from urban areas? Will this continue? Is the “vibe shift” going to be a good thing or bad thing for people that love and care about big cities?So let’s get real, and discuss what it all could mean. I may do a future podcast taking the opposite view, but for now I think it’s important to consider the possible downsides of recent trends. Those include cultural forces, but also technological and economic changes, such as the advent of AI.Come with me on a journey to the dark side…Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Mike Hathorne has been around the New Urbanism movement for over twenty years. That means he has that rare combination of idealism, practicality, and persistence. Nowadays, you can find Mike with Visionary Homes in Utah.While the principles of New Urbanism have guided his work for years, Mike has also been on the front lines trying to figure out how to get it all built. Like all of us, he’s had successes and failures. But that desire to connect to truly human values and needs continues to drive him forward. Mike and I talk about how the actual types of households in our communities are far more diverse than most realize. And, what that all means for people trying to build new housing. We pause for a minute to discuss the notion of why having diverse households in a neighborhood is actually a good thing, and how it helps communities.The changes in household makeup over the last 70 years or so is very stark, and surprises many people. I’ve found that most people still assume the 2 parents with kids at home is still the dominant household arrangement. It’s not at all, and we take a look at the numbers. For anyone trying to build or develop, or anyone trying to improve their community, this is really important baseline information. We can all imagine that world we might want to have, but we must start and work with the world as it is.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

If you’re fortunate and diligent, you’ll encounter people in your field that are just supremely knowledgable about the details, and willing to talk about them. Audrey Navarro, the Managing Partner of Clemons Real Estate in Kansas City, is one of those people. I’ve found Audrey to be incredibly nice and pleasant to talk with, but also very ruthless (in a good way) with the numbers and the realities of real estate and development.In this episode, we trace her path that started from a simple duplex house hack, to now running a company with hundreds of apartments, commercial properties and even a construction arm. I particularly love how she says, “We sell math, not buildings. If you can get creative with the math, you can do just about anything.”Audrey and her firm have also endeavored to work in the “supportive housing” world, and we talk about the trials and tribulations, as well as the possibilities, for anyone taking on that ask. Lastly, we talk about WIRED, which is a very cool effort to encourage women to be more involved in the real estate business.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

You’re not going to find too many movies with developers as the hero. For most of the public, their opinion of developers is somewhere below Congress. And that’s saying something.I find that all unfortunate, since developers are the ones who build virtually everything in our world - our homes, our offices, our shops, our entertainment. And there’s a group of developers who have been undertaking honestly heroic efforts for two or three decases - those trying to build “new urbanist” or walkable projects. Some of these are small, and some quite large, but they’re all challenging.Ward Davis is one of those guys. He’s been at it in Northwest Arkansas for a couple decades now, and has all the scars to show it. He also has had a lot of success, and he’s someone worth learning from when it comes to the ins and out of development. His company is High Street Development, based in Fayetteville, and he pretty much works just in that very fast-growing region.There are a LOT of gems in this episode, so I highly suggest you stick with my lousy audio recording to hear it all. Ward and I talk bout what their approach is with doing “town center” types of projects, how to make money doing it, what is wrong with the development business, and the promise but pitfalls of doing small-scale “incremental” development. In a certain sense, this is a great companion piece to my interview with John Zeanah from Memphis, as they both are trying to figure out how to change our many flawed systems, and get beautiful places built that stand the test of time.I love how Ward says, “There's not a business in the country that looks easier from the outside and is more difficult on the inside.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From Iain, whose excellent site you can find at this link:The term 'messy' is a growing one when it comes to cities just now, and it's a refreshing one in what has for the last little while been the domain of the planner, who tends to see the world from the top down. But what makes cities, and indeed a lot of companies, so good is that they embrace what comes from the bottom up.In cities that means what's happening on the street, and how the people are shaping it. In companies it means the front line staff or factory worker being empowered to make changes when they notice something.Anyway, my most recent guest for Challenger cities was Kevin Klinkenberg who has been writing about The Messy City for a while now. So I loved hearing his stories of applying this in his own realm of Kansas City.We talked art walks, roundabouts, neighbourhoods, backyard cottages and the trouble of trying to be neat, tidy and perfect all the time. I suspect people will be really into this one, and a bit thanks to Karen from Strong Towns for making the connection! Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Usually when a Kansas Citian talks about Memphis, it’s to discuss their bbq vs ours. And trust me, they do make some good ribs on Memphis. But today we are here to learn about housing and redevelopment. The City of Memphis has taken some solid steps in recent years to reform all manner of codes and processes to enable more and better housing options. John Zeanah joins me to discuss the specifics.There’s a lot in here for the policy wonks, and I’m here for it as well. But what I love the most is the attitude displayed by John, and his statement that they want to be problem solvers, not just regulators. What you hear from him is someone not content to check a box, do a plan and let it sit, or issue platitudes. This is what it looks like when people get their hands dirty, and truly work to fix issues that need fixing.The episode I had with Emily Hamilton is a great companion to this one, where she went into detail on State-level reforms for housing policy.For more, here’s John’s website.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed’s podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area. Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I’m not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying goes), but they did talk a lot about economic development. And while here, Jed had a chance to check in with our local small development group. We talk about why it’s important to have a local ecosystem of small developers like we have, and what he hopes to achieve by having one in the Triangle. Jed also has some insights on what it’s like to live in a fast-growing region, vs. the sort of slow and steady growth we have in most Midwestern markets.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.Jaime’s book: “Main Street Mavericks”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today’s episode isn’t exactly Coughlin’s Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg’s Rules, but it is full of some life advice I’d like to share for the dog days of Summer. I’ve long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn’t easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.Key link: Symphony in the Flint HillsFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That’s a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it’s also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren’t terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.John Haigh, who’s the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven’t heard of Benedictine before, as it’s a small college in a small town in flyover country. But you might want to pay attention to what they’re doing now, and what is rumbling up from the grass roots in higher education.We cover a lot in this podcast, including* the importance of learning to draw by hand, in the computer age* What is the impact of AI on the school and the students?* Why this is happening in Catholic schools?* can a college teach architects to become developers?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn’t inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That’s a long title and way of saying, she’s someone who does a LOT of research into housing policy, and really knows her stuff.I’ve been in this game long enough to be able to detect people who act like they’re serious about housing policy, but really aren’t. As in, they really don’t much about how housing gets built, who builds it, why they build it, and why they might build more. Emily is not one of those people. She has a clear interest in getting more of all kinds of housing built, to help with the price crunch that exists in so many markets.If you want to talk code reform and housing policy, this is your episode.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Terrell Jolly didn’t start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri’s Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast majority of developers avoid, and why he takes on such a difficult task.When I hear TJ talk, I think to myself, this is what our cities need. For a lot of cities in the Midwest in particular, we have a LOT of older homes and buildings that need renovation. We also have people who need affordable places to live. It’s people like TJ that figure out how to make it all economical, and are showing us a path towards something that can scale. But as he says, “you gotta have the guts.” It’s not easy. It’s not for the faint of heart. But it sure does have its rewards.Every city probably has a Terrell Jolly, and every city could use about a dozen more.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building. Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it’s often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, affordability in housing has long been a value proposition. How do we retain that as times change, and as we grow? We discuss this, as well as working to improve disinvested parts of our city, and explore the notion of whether or not our urban core is actually growing.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I’m familiar with. For example, “growth doesn’t always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven’t kept pace with the times.”Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he’s built a nice little business on the backs of his tough love and his experience. He denies he’s the tough love guy, and he clearly is a likable person. But I’ll stick with the meme - I think what he does is try to snap people out of their slumber with some tough love. Jeff says people need to have hard conversations, because when you don’t, you end up disappointing vastly more people. I agree. Check out his book, “Your City is Sick,” and his website for more info.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Many of us don’t like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I’m as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.But it doesn’t have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it’s not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel joins us, along with Commercial Banking Team Leader Jason Carter-Solomon, to talk banking and small-scale real estate development. Jason urges us to think hard about what our why? is in regards to what we’re doing. Abby talks a lot about her experience in banking and how a community bank in particular can help small business people become successful. All, of course, while navigating very turbulent times.We talk through a number of challenges people face, including access to capital when getting started, time management for those doing “side hustles” in development, and if there are creative ways to package multiple small projects together from a financing standpoint. You might also learn why Dodge City, KS is a fascinating place.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Patrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He’s also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We both live in a city that’s widely known for the extensive use of tax incentives for development, and we get into some of the challenges and realities of that approach. It’s a topic I’d love to explore even further, as it’s so embedded in our day to day reality and is very complex. Patrick makes a number of really insightful observations in this episode. As someone who lives in a big city and is always trying to balance the ideal with the practical, it’s always fascinating talking with people with a strong sense of principle. It’s very easy to get lost in the minutiae of the day to day, and every so often it’s helpful to step away and look at the bigger picture.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won’t touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I’ve heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.The whole discussion reminded me of something I wrote about years ago:About fifteen years ago, I remember reading a planning study for a corridor in Kansas City, Missouri, where I was living and working at the time. We were working with a client that had some redevelopment ideas in mind, and wanted to see what the officially-adopted plan recommended. Like many planning studies, it had a simple market analysis attached to it, with a look at recent trends in the real estate market and some projections for the future. As most planners know, this is typical plain-vanilla planning 101. The market study informs the plan recommendations, which eventually are codified into zoning and process.One thing in particular struck me at the time: the economist’s report bemoaning the “substandard” lot sizes in the area. I had to read it a few times before it became clear the message was that any serious redevelopment would require purchase and combination of many lots into larger development parcels. The notion baked into this was the original lots, many of which were 50 feet wide and around 100 – 150 feet deep (some narrower, some wider), were too small to attract modern, big-boy development. If any developer was ever to be serious about investing, he or she would need something more like what is typical with modern real estate development products. What is typical? Often that means several acres of land in one parcel, so the site can be developed with the necessary large, singular building, sufficient parking, room for storm water improvements, landscaping and lighting. Even in an urban location, the bias toward suburban-style solutions was still very strong, but when urban buildings were desired the thought process was still only a large, single master developer could accomplish transformation. Frankly, most planners and economic developers didn’t know of or trust a different model. The design and development professions still largely cling to this approach.Substandard, obsolete, these are words thrown around a lot by planners and economic development officials. But don’t buy it. Every property can be repurposed or rethought. In fact, Monte is the only person that’s ever made me look at an ugly strip mall and think, “yeah, I could make something cool with this.”Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We often don’t realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I’m a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven’t really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we’ve shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.Today’s discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible to make big changes. In fact, it happens at fairly regular intervals whether we want it or not.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Rik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he’s someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there’s a lot that requires our attention.But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the people create themselves, and not what is imposed from above.As an owner of Ash and Lime, and part of the Storefront Renaissance League, Rik focuses intently on the incremental steps to helping communities. One thing he mentioned in this that I loved is that incremental doesn’t necessarily mean small. It just means taking the next series of steps or bets. Kevin’s Note: I’ve had some audio issues recently, I know it. I’m working on it. Thanks for listening regardless.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren’t, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I’ve been taught?In fact, the obvious answer it’s not just a design problem. It’s also about how we relate to each other as humans, and the networks we form. Dr. Seth Kaplan is a true expert in this area, having studied and worked with fragile states all over the world. In 2023, he turned his attention to American cities and wrote the book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time.” Seth and I talk in this episode about the overlap between design and a true sense of community. That is, we explore what it takes to create the kind of place that kids have broad independence, where people truly look out for each other, and where people feel deeply invested in its long-term success. I’ll tease out one piece, where he talks about the difference between people he is friends with in his neighborhood, versus people he has a relationship with. And, how important that is for a successful place, and for more fulfilled people.Seth can be found here on his LinkedIn page, and you can see some of his writings here.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his remarkable new town on the beach in Costa Rica. I wrote some about Las Catalinas, here, after a recent visit.Charles is especially interesting in that he’s a firm believer in many of the principles of New Urbanism, but he’s also willing to challenge them and all of us who have worked on these communities. His first project, Glenwood Park in Atlanta, is a fantastic infill development by any realistic measure. Fascinatingly, he calls it “mainstream New Urbanism.” For him, the real challenge and next frontier is figuring out how to create car-free (or mostly car-free) communities. Charles in particular has been very motivated by the experience of kids and families, and how to encourage and allow for more freedom of movement and life for them. I’ll also just editorialize and say, his projects are a great testimony to the power of an individual’s passion to just get things done, and get them done well. Despite what outsiders and critics might think, these projects are very challenging. Part of the reason we have so few examples like them, is that it takes a rare kind of determination to go against virtually every professional silo in the built environment. Someone used to call this “stick-to-it-ive-ness.” It’s a quality I greatly admire in people, and I hope you do as well.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It’s truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people. An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He’s written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.One of my most enjoyable lines from this talk, was Dhiru relating that “The most original architects have the largest libraries – that’s their secret.” In essence, we all steal from each other, and from history. Nothing is original; everything derives from something else. Some may find that statement stifling, but if you truly care about making beautiful places above all else, it’s actually liberating.Dhiru and I talk about the possible future evolution of Seaside. Can it, in fact, evolve? Many of us that know and love Seaside as it is have a lot of heartburn with this notion. We hate seeing beloved buildings come down.My editorial, though, is that this line of concern is really just a symptom of an era of horrible architecture. Our ancestors never felt this way, because older buildings (which often were attractive), were replaced by new buildings that were more attractive.That all stopped with the advent of the modern movement in architecture – most notably the “international style.” Now, we just don’t have confidence that beauty can be replaced by beauty. We rightly fear that beauty will be replaced by ugliness. But in fact, we can build beautifully, and we have. People like Dhiru have been teaching us how to do so for more than forty years. It’s now incumbent on us to keep that fire burning. For inspiration, check out Dhiru’s Instagram account, and pick up a pencil and draw.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on for this interview is their work in courtyard housing and affordable housing.Educators and media within the architecture profession will routinely tell us we can’t build like the old ways, nor should we. And yes, of course, there’s some truth to the fact we have different materials, means and methods now. But Union Studio’s work shows us it is in fact possible to produce new buildings that build off of living human traditions, add grace and beauty to the world, and will certainly stand the test of the time. That’s as true for higher-end housing as it is for “affordable housing.” Good design is a choice, it’s an intention. In this episode, Don walks us through how they’ve made some of it happen.Give the whole thing a listen, but do remember some key points: fight for those one or two good details on any project, including doors and windows. And, good landscaping is cheap. Don’t overlook the importance of simple, but good, site design.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Austin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he’s aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn’t really do these projects justice. You really need to look these up, and/or see them in person. Not to get too frou-frou, but they touch your soul in a way that most new buildings just do not. Some links below:Podcast with Clay ChapmanPodcast with the Mayor of Oklahoma CityPodcast with Hiatus HomesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It’s not often you run across people in the development world that have deep knowledge in both the smallest scales of projects and the biggest. The industry, like many, is very bifurcated. People who do small projects tend to keep doing small projects. People who work on really large projects tend to keep doing that for their careers.Joe Perry, who works as his day job as the Vice President of Development for PortKC, has had one solid foot in both worlds for his entire career. We talk about what it’s like to exist in both realms, to prosper in both, and some key lessons learned. For anyone interested in house hacking or house flipping as a side gig, I’d highly recommend listening to Joe discuss what he’s done over a few decades.Joe and I worked together on the New Longview project in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, and you can hear more about that in my interview with developer David Gale.I really enjoy some of Joe’s advice to others, especially to young people. Stay tuned for the whole thing, it’s worth it.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“Just do it. Do it as quickly as you can.” That’s the advice of architect Doug Moss, who came to doing small-scale development projects after working for three decades as an architect. Doug left small-town Texas to pursue a career in New York, and boomeranged back several years ago to pursue his dreams as a developer. Now living in Austin, Doug has a healthy side gig doing small projects in Taylor, Texas, where he grew up.Doug and I met during the Small-Scale Developer Forum, which is a group Jim Heid gathers together twice per year. If you’re someone interested in improving your own community with development, these are your people. Doug still works as an architect with Steinberg Hart, but also does development with his company Public Sketch. Doug is such a modest guy, but this story is great inspiration for anyone who wants to use the professional skills they’ve learned to help a community they know and love.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe