The Messy City Podcast

Howard Blackson is the Howard Roark to my Peter Keating. He’s the oil to my water. Well, alright, maybe not so much. But we have sparred from time to time over American city grids, and urban design issues that all of about 100 people get really into. Beyond that, he’s a passionate San Diegan, and a very accomplished planner and designer.We finally had a chance to do a podcast together, and soldiered through some rough tech issues. Forgive any bumps.Yes, we talk some about grids, about the US West and the Laws of the Indies. But we spend more time talking about Howard’s intriguing concept of the Next Urbanism, which he outlines in this presentation below.Key links:Howard’s personal websiteJonathan Segal’s website (Architect as Developer)Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Marina Khoury is easily one of the most accomplished people in the world of urban design and planning that you probably don’t know. From Lebanon to Paris to Wisconsin and ultimately to work at DPZ CoDesign, Marina’s career has spanned a remarkable amount of work and experiences. The Miami21 zoning code alone is a heroic effort, worthy of great study for large cities nationwide. We trace Marina’s wide array of work in architecture, urban design and writing codes.Key links:Marina’s LinkedIn profileDPZ WebsiteThe Kentlands Citizens AssemblyMiami 21 zoning codeNew Town St CharlesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Not to be redundant, but Arti Harchekar is a joy to talk with. The author of the unique and fascinating blog, Joyful Urbanist, Arti has moved from planning to design to now the tech world, but always explores her interest in cities, towns and how places make us feel. I knew early on that Arti would do really great things, and it wouldn’t surprise me if one day much more of the world knows her and enjoys her writing.In her writing, Arti likes to talk about our emotional connections to place. She likes to talk about mental health, while openly and bravely describing her own struggles and journey. “Why do we form attachments to these places?” “What if we focus more on how we make people feel?” “Why don’t more planners and designers focus on the human connections?”Arti wisely describes Joy as an intense momentary feeling of happiness. And that happiness is a culmination of these moments of joy.I really, really enjoyed talking with Arti, and hope you enjoy this very different take on the world of cities, planning, design and architecture.A few key links:Her current company – Remix by ViaThis conversation again reminded me of this post by Andy Boneau – ”How New Urbanism saved my life”And I also thought I should share stories of other people living unconventional lives overseas.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

At the CNU31 and Strong Towns National Gathering confabs this year, I heard a lot of language that would put planners and designers in a very small minority outside the walls of the conference center. I get it - it’s a niche audience. It exists to critique American cities and towns, and make them better. A fair amount of what happens is venting. But an awful lot of what I increasingly hear simply condescends towards what normal Americans value and choose in large numbers. We can do better by our cities and towns, without wishing for a revolution (which will never happen) that completely upends our built environment and culture of property ownership. More importantly, if we want to have success in making our places stronger, more walkable, more bike-friendly, etc, we must work within the context we have. By the way, it’s not so bad, so lighten up a little bit.In addition to this short rant, I recap other aspects of the combined conference in Charlotte. And I ask the question, is CNU at an end? All the various offshoots - including NTBA, FBCI, National Charrette Institute, Strong Towns, IncDev, The Urban Guild - all seem to have much more energy.Finally, I give a short version of my session on AI, which I delivered at the conference. Yes, I think AI will have remarkable and yuuuge effects on the built environment and all the professions that work with it. Short version: the 20th century commute-to-the-office economy is over. Buckle up, as I read into my crystal ball.As always, please give me your feedback.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

John Anderson was one of the first people I got to know when I was a young pup architect trying to get involved with New Urbanism. I did my first design charrette with John and others in 1999, in Truckee, CA. We subsequently worked together many times over the years, in both planning and architecture work. I’ve seen John rise to being a minor celebrity in this world, and see him inspire countless others to try your hand in this strange professional (if you can call it that) endeavor.We’ve agreed, disagreed and debated a lot over the years. We continue to do so. But something about our shared Midwestern background has kept us united in looking for practical approaches to better communities and better buildings.John and I cover a lot of ground in this, from his most unusual journey to the work he does, to many hard lessons learned along the way, and how to help younger people get involved with small-scale, incremental development. John was a co-founder of Incremental Development Alliance, and we talk about how that came to be.John is best found on Facebook these days, and especially his fantastic group called Neighborhood Development. We talk a bit about this blog post I wrote years ago, calling for 10,000 new developers. And though we didn’t mention it, here’s John’s own blog.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Ali Quinlan is easily one of the most impressive people I’ve ever talked with, and makes me feel like I’m not doing nearly enough with my time. She’ll almost certainly have the same impact on you.In this second discussion at CNU31, Ali talks about her path becoming an architect, landscape architect, business owner, and developer. And she talks about how to balance it all while being a single Mom of small children. Ali has some incredible insights into managing her priorities and time, as well as the business side of being in the design professions.And a first for me: in this emotional discussion, Ali becomes my first guest to come to tears. Trust me, it’s worth an hour of your time to hear Ali’s story, and what she’s learned.Ali’s company is Flintlock Lab in Fayetteville, Arkansas.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

This is the first of three conversations I recorded at CNU31 in Charlotte in late May/early June. I’ll roll the rest out in coming weeks - each was VERY different, but thoroughly enjoyable. Here’s a tease: I had my first guest cry on-air.Andy Boneau is just a really fun and interesting person to talk with. Part engineer, part planner, part marketing and messaging expert, and now a documentary filmmaker - Andy writes the can’t-miss Substack Urbanism Speakeasy. Andy is funny, self-deprecating, but also profound. If you are someone that thinks at all about issues related to planning, street design and cities, AND cares about messaging, this is a must-listen.Of course, Andy is also another Gen X’er, and it makes me wonder, should I just do a Gen X podcast? Send me your thoughts.Here’s a few other links:Post – New Urbanism Saved My LifeLink to the Seed and Spark funding page for “White Collar Epidemic: Infrastructure is Crumbling our Minds and Bodies”Why We Buy, by Paco UnderhillFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Aaron Lubeck doesn’t just have opinions, he’s willing to share them. Honestly. He’s also a guy with a very unusual career path for urban design and planning coaching. Part developer, part historic preservationist, part designer, and now part journalist, Aaron and I cover a lot of ground. How do we find and create more small developers in our community, and actually help them succeed? How can we especially recruit younger people, women and minorities into the field?Aaron has been involved with Incremental Development Alliance from nearly. the beginning, doing trainings and helping recruit. He’s also active with the National Town Builders Association. Because all that isn’t enough, he’s helped to launch a new magazine - yes, an actual magazine, called Southern Urbanism Quarterly.Other Links:Aaron’s LinkedIn pageAllison Ramsey Architects website - house plansFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Kevin’s editorial note: I’ve had some questions about making transcripts of these available, for those who’d prefer to read instead of listen to the podcasts. I’m looking into it, especially what AI tools might help. Just know I have exceptionally limited time, and there’s no way I’m going to spend an additional hour or two each week refining a transcript. At this point in my life, it’s just not possible. At any rate, the audio is much more interesting anyway - please give it a listen. If you’re new to podcasts, give them a try. I will definitely be producing more actual written content soon. The first half of this year has simply hit a new threshold for busy-ness in my life. Thanks as always for following, and keep your comments coming.For this week’s episode, I give my observations on how change happens. We seem to have a lot of confusion about this. Some folks think change never happens, and others seem to think it can be made to happen in big, utopian ways immediately. Big societal changes do happen (that should be obvious to anyone over 30), but they take time, leadership, and lots of grass roots effort. Change that sustains itself almost always connects deeply to human nature and human pleasure. I’d hope that would be obvious, but it seems often not to be the case.In my public presentations, I talk frequently about how change has happened in relation to food, cooking and eating. I discuss the groundbreaking efforts of Alice Waters and Julia Child in particular. And then we draw connections to how change has been happening with our cities and towns, going from the post-WWII period up until now. Jane Jacobs is obviously a big figure in this effort (btw, fun cameo of her in the latest season of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel), but let’s not forget the thousands and thousands of others who put in time and effort in complementary ways - all trying to pursue pro-human values about life in cities. Oh by the way, it’s not easy, and you may in fact experience a lot of hatred in the process. Buckle up.This episode comes out just as the Strong Towns National Gathering and CNU 31 in Charlotte is commencing. If you’re there and would like to chat in person, please come find me. I’ll be doing a presentation with Abby Kinney at the Strong Towns gathering related to traffic calming and beautification projects in Kansas City. At CNU 31, I’ll mostly be in the Urban Guild room, as we have two days of very exciting and practical content. Of course, there’s also the session on AI, which may or may not be practical, but should be entertaining. See you there.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Being a Director of City Planning is glamorous, right? Isn’t that what Seinfeld taught us?Rob Richardson has been a Planning Director in both Kansas City, Kansas (the Unified Government of Wyandotte County) and Raymore, Missouri. He’s also worked as a planner in Independence, Missouri. We discuss the reality of the job in those communities, and the challenges of working in places that aren’t wealthy.While in KCK, Rob advanced numerous efforts including design guidelines for development of narrow lots (of which there are thousands in the older part of the city), a Traditional Neighborhood Development ordinance, a Sidewalk and Trail Plan, a Downtown Plan, and much more. We talk about the successes and failures of all this, and also the remarkable success KCK has had in turning its Land Bank around in recent years while working with smaller builders and developers.Rob is now back in the private sector, leading Richardson Brothers Development. Here’s his LinkedIn page.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Nathan Norris and I have been involved in New Urbanism and the Congress for the New Urbanism for more than 25 years. And yet, our backgrounds and path to it couldn’t be more different. Nathan came a military and a legal background, while I came from an architecture and design background. In fact, most New Urbanists were originally like me, and people like Nathan were the outliers.Nathan talks about how he followed his passions, sort of. Basically, things that angered him, led him to future work. Don’t get the wrong idea - Nathan is not an angry guy. But he does describe how he found his way eventually to Placemakers, working in downtown Lafayette, Louisiana, and then back on his own with the City Building Partnership. We talk a lot about the importance of messaging and clear language, implementation of form-based codes, especially the SmartCode, and The Urban Guild among other topics.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It’s a tale of two Kevins, as we discuss cultivating local prosperity and the Strong Towns message with Kevin Shepherd of Verdunity. Kevin is an engineer by background, and started his own planning and engineering firm just over a decade ago in the Dallas area. He left the corporate world to follow his calling to help cities and towns make more fiscally-productive decisions with land use and infrastructure. He talks with us about why he made that leap, how it’s going working in cities and towns in Texas (and elsewhere), and how others can follow in his footsteps.We also talk a little about the scourge of Kevinism.Other links:Go Cultivate! podcastMessy City episode with Monte Anderson Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In just a few short years, Andrew Ganahl has already made a notable impact in the urban development world in Kansas City. He’s developed three new projects in the urban core, is working on more, and he’s shown how persistence and a positive attitude can get a whole lot done in short order. But, he’s not only not from Kansas City, he’s also only recently become a developer. The Stanford and Harvard-educated public policy wonk (I hope he doesn’t mind me calling him that), only came to the development world in his thirties. We explore this unusual journey, not only to KC and the middle of the map, but also to real estate development.Is it possible to leave the world of public policy and find more fulfillment doing things you can see and touch? Listen and hear Andrew’s thoughts.Links:Andrew’s LinkedIn profileAND Real EstateAndrew’s projects:1914 Main, now under new ownershipTerrace on Walnut, now under new ownershipWaldo FlatsIn Milwaukee - the Quin and the YardsFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The notorious and excellent blogger, Mr. Money Mustache, wrote a worlds-colliding piece a couple weeks ago called “Less Cars, More Money: My Visit to the City of the Future.” MMM writes at length about culdesac Tempe, which we discussed on a previous podcast with Dan Parolek of Opticos Design.MMM is the GOAT in many respects for the Financial Independence movement. If you’ve touched that world at all, you’ve probably heard of him, read his posts, or seen him in movies or clips. Funny thing is, he’s also very interested in urban planning and city design. In this post, he marries the two worlds, and suggests how it might impact other people and American cities in the future.I have my take on it, as you might imagine.Also, in Act 2, Everything is broken right now. What does it all mean?Here’s a few other items referenced in the podcast:Disney SpringsChooseFI Some background on the movement to pedestrianize American main streets in the 1960s and 70s in particular. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

How do you find an outlet for your passion for your place, especially when you don’t feel you have the money necessary to get started? Is it possible to still see yourself as a developer?Jason, Shomari and I have a LOT to discuss in this episode. In my longest interview to-date, we talk about a wide range of topics from getting started in development, to being the change in your own community, and what all is going on in Kansas City and the Vine District in particular. Jason and Shomari are two go-getters in KC, who both came to development from very different backgrounds and have learned a ton as they go. We talk about their entrepreneurial spirit, dealing with success and failure, and how rewarding and creative it can be to take on development projects yourself.Links:Shomari’s law firm. Benton, Lloyd and ChungJason Carter-Solomon on LinkedIn2000 VineWheatley Provident HospitaVine DistrictFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes, you run across people that get you very inspired and fired up for action. They make you want to run through a wall to get started NOW. This episode features two such people. I challenge you not to be energized and excited to do something good for your own community.Bernice Radle is the CEO and Founder of Buffalove Development. She started the company in 2012, and focuses exclusively on the west side of Buffalo.Monte Anderson founded Options Real Estate in 1991 in south Dallas, Texas. He’s one of the founders of the Incremental Development Alliance, and has been an active community-oriented developer for over thirty years.Bernice and Monte have started a consulting service for communities looking to ramp up their local developer ecosystem called Neighborhood Evolution.In this episode we explore their own paths to becoming developers, their philosophy on doing locally-oriented development, some of the challenges and the opportunities for others, and how to get over yourself and get started today.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Dan Parolek co-founded Opticos Design with his wife Karen about 25 years ago. Since then, Opticos has become a national leader in the field of urban planning and design. Dan has authored two seminal books, Form-Based Codes: A Guide for Planners, Urban Designers, Municipalities and Developers and Missing Middle Housing: Thinking Big and Building Small to Respond to Today’s Housing Crisis. Dan is a true thought leader in the field, and a great friend of the podcast. Dan and I first got to know each other and work together on a charrette in Truckee, CA in 1999, and we’ve had the pleasure to work together, collaborate, and brainstorm ideas all the years since.In recent years, Dan has become known as the primary spokesperson for the concept of Missing Middle Housing. His firm has developed a website specific to that topic here. Some of the projects mentioned in the episode include the Daybreak Mews Homes, Bungalows on the Lake at Prairie Queen, and Culdesac in Tempe, AZ.We talk about the current state of American cities, changes that have taken place over the last couple of decades, some current threats to the cities, and a lot about implementing Missing Middle Housing and Form-Based Codes.Other mentions:The Urban GuildCongress for the New UrbanismThanks for listening! Please share, like, follow and review the podcast at your pleasure.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

For those of us who are a certain age, we remember Paul Harvey’s unique voice entertaining and enlightening us on the radio. His regular shows told us “The Rest of the Story.” For me, that was usually in the car, on long family road trips, trips to school, or trips across southern Minnesota to go to Rochester for the SE Minnesota Youth Orchestra every week (SEMYO, for those in the know). I cherish those moments now. It’s too long ago to remember exactly how I felt at the time - maybe I even made fun of it all. But now, it speaks to really great family time together, and the wonderful things my parents did for us as kids.This is an episode of stories in three acts.Act 1 - HumilityAct 2 - TraditionAct 3 - TragedyAnd, here is some additional information:Fiddler on the roof - “Tradition!”Video of Ed Bacon - “Form, Design and The City.”99% PI on “The City of the Future” - a 2 part seriesAnn Sussman - “Cognitive Architecture”Below is the intersection I reference in Vail, Colorado:A story from 1996 on the initial Vail roundabout.And, the intersection I reference in Savannah, GA: Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

New Town St. Charles is one of the most ambitious developments in the history of not only St. Louis, but also the New Urbanism movement. New Town was conceived, planned and built by Whitaker Builders. Tim Busse is the long-time Town Architect for Whitaker Builders and the town.In this episode we explore lessons learned from trying to create a walkable place from scratch, and doing so within the world of a large production home builder. We talk about challenges the project had to navigate with the Great Recession, and also the differences between this effort and other efforts the company undertook in conventional suburban development, as well as TNDs in other markets.Tim’s firm, Studio Archaeos on FacebookTim’s LinkedIn profileDean Klinkenberg, the Mississippi Valley Traveler, for travel books, non-fiction and fictional stories of the Mississippi.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Are you a pessimist or an optimist in regards to America’s built landscape, and its future? How can we all find a way to navigate changes that are coming?Johnny Sanphillippo writes the Granola Shotgun blog, where he frequently challenges narratives about cities, suburbs, and what individuals can do. If you’re a lover of walkable places, is it possible to turn the battleship of the last 70+ years and get more of them built? Or, will circumstances change of their own accord, whether we like it or not? What can an individual do in the late years of The Suburban Experiment, in order to still live a good life?We also discuss Peak Silicon Valley and Peak Bay Area, and some possible futures for that region, California, and other parts of America. Johnny joins us from Mexico City, where he is scouting out a Plan B for his life and pseudo-retirement.Granola Shotgun blog here. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Incremental change in cities, the kind that used to be by-right, has become progressively more difficult since the creation of zoning and the reforms of the 20th century. How do people who value messy cities and incremental change begin to make change in this environment? How is the context for cities in the middle of the country unique?Dennis Strait and Abby Kinney join the podcast to discuss their work with incremental change, small-scale development and facilitating civic conversations in Kansas City and elsewhere.Dennis an Abby work in the Planning Studio for multistudio. He has presented extensively in KC on “We’ve Built a City We can’t Afford.” That recording is available on the KC Library website here.Abby hosts the Upzoned podcast on the Strong Towns network. Sign up and listen!Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Steve Mouzon, www.mouzon.com, is one of the long-time architects and designers from the New Urbanism movement. Steve has written multiple books, including the series of “A Living Tradition” books, and “The Original Green.”We cover what Steve is currently working on in terms of his writing and publication ventures.We also take a dive into The Original Green - what is it, what led Steve to it, and the implications for architecture and cities and towns.Finally, we spend some time talking about our shared interest in New Media, and how (and why) designers can better utilize it in the age of social media. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What is a Messy City? Who is Kevin Klinkenberg?In this episode, I’ll introduce myself to those of you who don’t know me, and set the table for what this podcast will cover. I’ll also review and read through a blog post from 2018 called, “What is a Messy City.” Feedback is always appreciated.If you have a moment, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with a friend, and leave a review. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe