The Leader's Journey Podcast

*This episode was originally published in July, 2023. In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Chuck DeGroat to talk about the natural reactivity we have to anxiety. We've talked a lot about fight and flight, conflict and distancing, but we don't always add two other instinctive reactions: freeze and fawn. We may aspire to peace-making but we often settle for peace keeping and people-pleasing. When we can see our fawn response, we can stop hiding and courageously choose genuine connection instead. Conversation Overview: Chuck's tweet that inspired this conversation How does the fawn response mimic healthy connection while also undermining it? How does the fawn response show up in leadership? How do we connect the fawn response to anxiety? What might we do instead of fawning? References: Link to Chuck's Tweet Chuck Degroat Website https://twitter.com/chuckdegroat @chuckdegroat on Threads Janina Fisher The Fifth Discipline: The art and practice of the learning organization Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship The Five Dysfunctions of a Team: A Leadership Fable

Asking a question seems simple, but it's often where communication breaks down. In this episode, Trisha focuses on how the way we ask questions shapes the responses we get, the relationships we build, and the outcomes we experience. She explores the difference between genuine curiosity and hidden agendas, how poorly formed questions can create confusion or defensiveness, and what it looks like to ask questions that invite clarity, trust, and deeper understanding in real-life situations. Conversation Overview Why asking questions is harder than it seems The difference between curiosity and control in questions How assumptions shape the questions we ask The impact of tone, timing, and intent Questions that open vs. questions that shut down conversation Practicing better questions in everyday leadership and relationships Resources The Coaching Habit: Say Less, Ask More and Change the Way You Lead Forever by Michael Bungay Stanier Change Your Questions Change Your Life: 12 Powerful Tools for Leadership, Coaching and Life by Marilee Adams, PhD Find Us on YouTube Explore the Series: Episode One - How to Have a Conversation Episode Two - Moving Past the Memo - Conversations in Organizations Episode Three - When Talking Isn't Enough

In this episode, Trisha sits down with Mac to explore what happens when dialogue has run its course, and agreement still is not possible. While healthy organizations value conversation, listening, and discernment, there are moments when leaders must move forward even when consensus cannot be reached. Together, they examine two common leadership traps. Some groups skip meaningful dialogue and rush to decisions. Others stay in conversation indefinitely, believing that enough discussion will eventually produce agreement. Trisha and Mac discuss how leaders can avoid both extremes by creating clear processes for decision making, defining responsibility, and building the maturity required to remain connected even when people disagree. Throughout the conversation, they reflect on the deeper work that takes place in these moments. Leadership is not only about making good decisions but also about who people become as they navigate conflict, disappointment, and differing convictions together. Mac is a pastor and leadership team member with The Leader's Journey. His work focuses on helping church leaders grow in emotional maturity, navigate difficult conversations, and develop healthier leadership cultures within their organizations. Conversation Overview Two Common Ditches in Dialogue When Consensus Becomes a Barrier Defining Yourself Without Demanding Agreement Deciding How Decisions Will Be Made Authority, Responsibility, and Leadership Clarity Staying Connected When Disagreement Remains References and Resources Mac McCarthy - The Leader's Journey Register for the "When Dialogue Isn't Enough" conversation on March 26 Find Us on YouTube

In this episode, Trisha sits down with Rick to talk about how communication really works inside organizations. They move beyond announcements and memos to look at communication as an ongoing cultural process that shapes trust, clarity, and effectiveness. Together, they explore how messages change as they move through layers of leadership, why first-line supervisors matter so much, and what makes listening across teams challenging, especially in times of change. Throughout the conversation, they return to a simple idea: communication gets better when leaders pay as much attention to what they are hearing as to what they are saying. Rick Rarick is a leadership coach and former Human Resources and Management Development executive with Levi Strauss, the Coca-Cola Company, Fiserv, and Invesco. During his professional career, Rick was responsible for helping his organizations define their vision and purpose, develop talent pipelines, and create cultures where people were committed to their work and each other. His work with clients is grounded in coaching the whole person: including the mental, emotional, and spiritual self. His approach to leadership is about taking initiative, defining a vision, and helping those around you be successful. Conversation Overview Communication as Culture, Not an Event Continuous Flow vs. Big Announcements The Critical Role of Supervisors and Context Listening and Feedback Communication Across Levels and Silos Leadership Self-Awareness and Assumptions Resourses Rick Rarick at The Leader's Journey The Leader's Journey Blog https://www.youtube.com/@theleadersjourney

We communicate every day, yet we rarely stop to think about what we are actually doing when we enter a conversation. In this episode, Trisha and Elissa explore the basics of communication through a simple but powerful metaphor: conversation as a game of catch. What does it mean to throw well? To catch well? To take turns? To play generously? Together they unpack how conversations flow, how they break down, and how we can become more mindful, generous participants in the everyday exchanges that shape our relationships at work, at home, and in our communities. Conversation Overview Conversation as a game of catch Throwing and catching: sending and receiving skills Interrupting, over-talking, and holding the ball Asking good questions and keeping the game moving Generosity, anxiety, and when catch turns into dodgeball Staying in the game instead of taking the ball home Guest Bio Elissa Lappenga is a professional educator, trainer, and coach with over 20 years of experience in education, non-profit, corporate, and community settings. Elissa earned her Master of Education (M.Ed.) from UCLA with a concentration in counseling and was one of the first facilitators of the university's Intergroup Dialogue program. She also maintains a SHRM-CP certification with the Society for Human Resources Management and is a PROSCI certified change management practitioner. Resources and References Mentioned Elissa on The Leaders Journey Register for the Upcoming Zoom: How to Have a Converstation

Jim Herrington has been a steady voice on The Leader's Journey Podcast for years. In this episode, Trisha Taylor reflects with him on the long arc of his life, leadership, and learning as he steps into a slightly different role at The Leader's Journey. Together they explore the leadership principle that has shaped everything Jim does: leadership is all about learning. From early experiences of trauma and racism, to systems thinking, reflection, and the ongoing work of emotional and spiritual maturity, this conversation offers a deeper look at the experiences that formed Jim's perspective and continue to shape his work today. Conversation Overview Leadership is all about learning Learning shaped by pain, experience, and reflection Seeing yourself, your system, and your role within it Defining yourself and staying connected under pressure The long work of systems change and emotional maturity Encouragement and wisdom for the next generation of leaders Resources and References Mentioned The Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge Murray Bowen Family Systems Theory The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard Union Baptist Association

As a new year begins, leaders are often faced with uncertainty, change, and challenges that cannot be solved with a predetermined plan. In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor welcomes Megan Mills for a thoughtful and practical conversation about improvisation and its surprising relevance to leadership and everyday life. Together, they explore how the principles of improv such as trust, listening, shared agreements, and adaptability offer a powerful framework for navigating complexity, collaborating well, and showing up fully when the path forward is unclear. Megan Mills is originally from Waukegan, IL (north of Chicago), went to Hope College in Holland, MI and shortly after graduation, moved to New York City. Her early years in NYC were spent in stage management and personal assistant roles as well as performing, creating, teaching and directing improvisational theatre. Now daily life includes driving her son back and forth to numerous games and practices throughout Queens, NY and the tri-state area. Megan has a passion for organization, The Container Store, and Chicago Cubs. She has also been an advocate, public speaker, and volunteer for the American Heart and Stroke Association for the past 20+ years. Conversation Overview Beginning the year without a script Improv as a tool for adaptive leadership The importance of shared agreements and trust "Yes, and" as a mindset for collaboration Listening, presence, and patience in real time Supporting others instead of competing Improv games as practice for real life skills Applying improv principles to teams and leadership Creating safety and inclusion for all voices Meeting uncertainty with openness and curiosity Resources and References Mentioned Megan Mills at The Leader's Journey Truth in Comedy by Del Close and Charna Halpern Harvard Business Review - Three Improv Exercises That Can Change the Way Your Team Works TED Talks on improv, adaptability, and leadership Improv exercises including Three Headed Expert and listening games

In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor and Edie Lenz delve into the complex role of nostalgia within faith communities. They examine the emotional pull of "the way things used to be" and how leaders can honor the past without letting it prevent forward movement. Through personal reflection and practical examples, they invite listeners to cultivate a healthier relationship with change and cherish fond memories of the past. Conversation Overview When Looking Back Warps the Present Nostalgia as Emotional Comfort Generational Dynamics Around the Past The Spiritual Dimension of Nostalgia Practices for Moving Forward Learning to Grieve What Has Changed Resources Edie Lenz at The Leader's Journey Edie Lenz Substack The Leaders Journey Courses The Leader's Journey - Systems Thinking Bowen Theory System Course The Leader's Journey - Spiritual Formation Course

In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Edie Lenz is joined by Ken Eriks and Chelsey Harmon of Churches Learning Change for a rich conversation about the power of mental models in congregational life. They explore what mental models are, how they shape the way churches function, and why unearthing and reforming them is essential for leading meaningful, lasting change. Through stories, examples, and practical processes, they describe how congregations can move from feeling stuck to discovering clarity, creativity, and a shared path forward. Conversation Overview What Mental Models Are and Why They Matter Different Perspectives and Conflicting Assumptions Why Churches Engage Mental Models Work Competing Models in a Congregation Unearthing Mental Models in Community Congregational Practices for Surfacing Mental Models Experimentation as a Pathway to Learning Reforming and Rooting New Mental Models Why This Work Takes Time, Reflection, and Community How to Connect With Churches Learning Change Edie Lenz, Ken Ericks, and Chelsey Harmon are the staff of Churches Learning Change (CLC), an organization dedicated to helping congregations engage deep change through adaptive leadership, reflective practice, and intentional learning communities. Through coaching, content curation, and process facilitation, they equip churches to unearth, test, and reform the mental models shaping their life together. Their work integrates theology, systems thinking, and practical tools to support leaders and congregations seeking clarity, transformation, and renewed imagination. Resources: Churches Learning Change Learn more about Chelsey Harmon Edie Lenz at The Leader's Journey Learn more about Ken Eriks

In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Jim Harrington sits down with pastor and coach Mac McCarthy to explore how emotional intelligence shapes the life of a leader and the health of a congregation. Together, they discuss what emotional intelligence truly means, why it's essential for spiritual formation, and how leaders can embody and cultivate it within their teams and churches. Through real stories and practical insight, they invite listeners to see emotional maturity as a lifelong journey of formation and courage. Mac McCarthy is a coach with The Leader's Journey and the lead pastor of Crosspoint Community Church in the Milwaukee area. He has served in ministry since 2008 and is known for his thoughtful integration of emotional maturity, discipleship, and leadership development. Mac also hosts the Praxis podcast, where he explores faith and practice in everyday life. Conversation Overview Defining Emotional Intelligence and Why It Matters Jesus as the Model of Emotional Maturity Practicing What You Teach From Learning to Practicing to Reflecting Building Emotionally Intelligent Cultures Creating Shared Language and Playful Learning Leadership Practices for Growth Navigating Conflict with Maturity The Long Work of Formation Encouragement for the Journey Resources Mentioned Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman A Failure of Nerve by Edwin H. Friedman The Leader's Journey: Accepting the Call to Personal and Congregational Transformation by Jim Herrington, Trisha Taylor, and R. Robert Creech Praxis Podcast by Crosspoint Community Church Emotional Intelligence Dialogue – November 11, 11:30–12:30 PM CST

In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor and Michael DeRuyter explore empathy as a guiding principle for leaders. Is empathy always a strength, or can it sometimes get in the way? Through stories, humor, and systems thinking, they unpack what empathy really is, why it is often misunderstood, and how mature empathy helps us stay grounded, connected, and responsible. This conversation invites leaders to move beyond reactive compassion toward empathy that sustains courage, clarity, and truth. Conversation Overview Redefining Empathy Empathy, Sympathy, and Emotional Fusion The Role of Perspective and Curiosity Empathy and Systems Thinking Boundaries, Responsibility, and Courage Resources Mentioned A Failure of Nerve by Edwin H. Friedman Dare to Lead by Brené Brown Empathy Zoom Dialogue – October 21

What does it mean to be truly welcoming? In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor is joined by author and spiritual director Laura Murray to explore welcome as a guiding principle for life and leadership. Together they unpack how hospitality goes deeper than surface-level friendliness, why boundaries are essential to real welcome, and how leaders can create environments of safety, curiosity, and belonging. This conversation will inspire you to rethink what welcome looks like in your home, your leadership, and your community. Laura Murray is a minister, author, and spiritual director who brings faith formation into the digital space through her innovative work with online retreats and resources. She is passionate about integrating ideas, connecting people, and releasing the gifts of others. Her newest book, Becoming a Person of Welcome, explores what it means to embody hospitality in ways that are healthy, grounded, and transformative. Learn more about Laura's work, including her retreats and resources, at laurabmurray.com. Conversation Overview Welcome as more than friendliness Why genuine welcome requires boundaries and limits Protecting both people and purpose in our communities The grief and gift of acknowledging our limitations Learning to welcome our own humanity before we can welcome others Endings, closure, and repair as essential parts of welcome The multiplying effect of welcome beyond ourselves How God's welcome shapes the way we welcome others Resources Mentioned Becoming a Person of Welcome by Laura Murray LauraBMurray.com The Leader's Journey Coaching

Introduction Life and leadership inevitably bring seasons of disruption and instability. What do we do when the ground shifts beneath us, and the places we thought were safe no longer hold? In this conversation, Trisha Taylor talks with Rusty Mackey about resilience as a guiding principle—learning to live with instability, to cultivate presence, and to find stability not in circumstances but in God. Guest Bio Rusty McKie is a spiritual director, spiritual formation coach, and somatic coach. He is the founder of Steadfast Ministries, where he helps leaders survive and thrive in ministry. Rusty is also the host of The Art of Stability podcast and author of the book The Art of Stability: How Staying Present Changes Everything. His newest initiative, Man School, is a five-year rite of passage curriculum designed to equip fathers to raise their sons into men of character. Rusty lives out his passion for helping leaders and families build resilience through presence, reflection, and spiritual depth. Conversation Overview Guiding principles as steady reference points in instability Instability as an invitation from God rather than betrayal The link between fragility, resilience, and presence The role of lament and compassion in cultivating resilience Orientation, disorientation, and reorientation as a cycle of growth Noticing our bodies and responses in times of instability How personal growth reshapes leadership and relationships Resources The Art of Stability Steadfast Ministries: steadfastmin.com Man School: manschool.co The Art of Stability Podcast Guiding Principles Series - The Leaders Journey Podcast Integrity in Action: Alligning Words, Promises, and Values

What does it really mean to live with integrity? In this episode, Jim Herrington and Trisha Taylor unpack the guiding principle of integrity, not as a rigid rule, but as a dynamic, life-giving process. They explore how our words create reality, why honoring our commitments matters, and how integrity helps us align with God's design for our lives, families, and communities. This conversation offers practical wisdom, honest stories, and a framework for growing integrity in ways that transform relationships and leadership. Jim Herrington and Trisha Taylor are authors, coaches, and co-founders of The Leader's Journey. They are passionate about helping leaders grow the inner life and outer skills needed for sustainable leadership. Through coaching, teaching, and honest conversations, they guide individuals and organizations to live into their guiding principles with courage and integrity. Learn more at theleadersjourney.us. Conversation Overview Why guiding principles help us navigate anxiety and stay grounded in our values Integrity as more than "being good" How our words create expectations and shape reality The distinction between keeping our word and honoring our word Why we're designed to make big promises A four-step process for "cleaning up messes" when we break our word How leaders, families, and communities can cultivate a culture of integrity The role of accountability and coaching in growing integrity over time

Join Jim and Trisha as they discuss how we, as the church, can embrace the paradigm shift to a new structure in a church without walls. Their insightful conversation with this week's guest, Terry Walling, offers a unique perspective on how nomadic believers are truly helping grow the church as they act as disciples within the community. Terry Walling is a pastor, professor, and author of Unlikely Nomads: In Search of the New Church. He has also launched a podcast series in which he has conversations with a variety of people who are in search of a deeper journey with Jesus and with following Him in a different kind of church in America. Conversation Overview -Moving in an Old, New Direction -The Nomadic Believer -Personal Renewal that Leads to Corporate Change -Apprenticing the life of Jesus -Embracing the Mystery Resources: http://leaderbreakthru.com/ Unlikely Nomads by Terry Walling Canoeing the Mountains by Todd Bolsinger A Non-Anxious Presence by Mark Sayers The Great Emergence Podcast Series The Equations of Ministry: Imagining Beyond the Traditional Church Model Apprenticing to Jesus Related Blog Posts Unlikely Nomads: Redefining Church for a Missional Future – Repost Unlikely Nomads: A Reflection Unlikely Nomads: Redefining Church for a Missional Future

In Part 2 of this conversation, Trisha Taylor continues her dialogue with Mac and Josie McCarthy, diving deeper into what it means to lead churches and communities where people with disabilities can truly belong. Rather than offering a one-size-fits-all solution or launching a new program, this episode encourages leaders to shift their attention, challenge their assumptions, and engage the theological and relational work of creating environments where everyone can flourish. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by the complexity of inclusion or unsure where to start, this conversation offers grounded wisdom, gentle challenge, and hopeful next steps rooted in the heart of God's kingdom. Conversation Overview: Moving beyond inclusion and into belonging The role of leaders in shifting community attention and assumptions How disability challenges our theology of brokenness and healing Encouragement for leaders to start small, stay present, and notice more Guest Bio: Mac McCarthy is a pastor at Crosspoint Community Church near Milwaukee and a coach with The Leader's Journey, where he helps leaders develop emotionally healthy, systems-aware leadership grounded in their deepest values. Learn more about Mac's coaching work. Josie McCarthy is a recovery nurse, mother of three, and passionate voice for dignity and connection in the disability community. She brings a grounded, relational perspective rooted in personal experience and deep faith. Resources Mentioned: Mac McCarthy at The Leader's Journey – Learn more about Mac's coaching and leadership development. Esau McCaulley – Reading While Black – A powerful example of theology from a specific social location. Find The Leader's Journey on YouTube Subscribe to The Leader's Journey Newsletter

In this episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor is joined by Mac and Josie McCarthy for a deeply honest conversation on disability, faith, and the church. Sharing their journey as parents of a child with Down syndrome, Mac and Josie open up about the grief, growth, and spiritual reframing they experienced, and how it has changed the way they see God, themselves, and their community. Together, they challenge us to move beyond pity and mere inclusion toward presence, dignity, and belonging, recognizing the gifts individuals with disabilities bring to the body of Christ. Whether you are a parent, pastor, or community leader, this episode will encourage and challenge you to see disability not as a problem to fix, but as a call to deeper love and interdependence. Mac McCarthy is the lead pastor of Crosspoint Community Church near Milwaukee and a coach with The Leader's Journey, where he helps leaders build emotionally healthy, systems-aware communities rooted in Christian values. Learn more about Mac's coaching work here. Josie McCarthy is a nurse, mother of three, and passionate advocate for recognizing the dignity and gifts of individuals with disabilities, bringing practical wisdom and deep faith to this conversation. Conversation Overview: Moving through grief and acceptance after a disability diagnosis How disability challenges and reframes our theology and expectations The way Jesus sees and engages individuals with disabilities From pity to presence The pitfalls of prejudice, disability blindness, and transactional service Seeing individuals with disabilities as vital, gifted members of the church Navigating the tension between challenge and joy in disability Encouragement for leaders feeling overwhelmed in creating spaces of belonging Resources: Mac McCarthy at The Leader's Journey – Learn more about Mac's coaching and leadership development work. Zoom Dialogue on Disability (July 24 at 1:00 PM Central) – A live dialogue with Mac and Josie exploring how leaders can practically engage these conversations. Disability Theology (to be explored in Part 2) – A framework for understanding faith and disability in the church. Find The Leader's Journey on YouTube Dive a little deeper into the conversation pertaining to disability by reading these recommended books: Amy Kenny's My Body Is Not a Prayer Request Nancy Eiesland's The Disabled God Organizations that equip churches to be places of inclusion & belonging: Key Ministry -- https://keyministry.org SOAR -- https://soarspecialneeds.org

In this candid bonus episode of The Leader's Journey Podcast, Trisha Taylor, Michael DeRidder, and Aundrea Baker open up an honest conversation about the realities of abuse and misconduct within faith communities and organizations. Sharing insights from their ongoing learning, including reflections from a recent conference, the team explores the power dynamics, cultural patterns, and systemic issues that allow abuse to occur and persist. They discuss the deep wounds left in individuals and communities, the need for preemptive culture work, and the essential role of leaders in creating environments of safety and accountability. If you are leading or serving in a church or organization, this conversation will challenge and equip you to think differently about prevention, response, and healing when abuse surfaces. Trisha Taylor, Michael DeRuyter, and Aundrea Baker are coaches with The Leader's Journey, where they guide individuals, teams, and organizations toward emotionally healthy, systems-aware leadership rooted in Christian values. They bring deep experience in walking alongside leaders navigating crises and transformation, helping communities engage challenging conversations with courage, clarity, and care. Conversation Overview: The weight of healing and the need for shared responsibility How power dynamics and organizational culture enable abuse The myth of exceptionalism and its role in silencing victims Why systems thinking is critical for addressing abuse The importance of leaders creating cultures of safety and openness Moving from protecting perpetrators to caring for survivors Preemptive culture-building as abuse prevention Resources: Being Human: Podcast with Chuck and Steve https://churchcares.com/ Find Aundrea Baker and Michael DeRuyter on The Leader's Journey Extraordinary Relationships by Roberta Gilbert – Framework on systems thinking, including the concepts of being separate, equal, and open in relationships and organizations.