The Lawfare Podcast

We are a little more than a year out from the 2024 election—an election that, in countless ways, promises to be unlike any other. One way it may be different is the very real prospect of a scenario in which neither major party candidate secures enough electoral votes to win, kicking the decision to the House of Representatives in what is called a “contingent election.” Possible third parties are actively discussing the possibility of a contingent election as part of their political strategy—and this talk has many experts and advocates nervous about what chaos the turn to a contingent election might wreak. To talk through what this scenario might mean, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Beau Tremitiere and Aisha Woodward of Protect Democracy, which recently released a report—and published a related piece in Lawfare—on the topic. They walked through how a contingent election would work, how it might end up subverting the democratic process, and what alternatives might be out there for those less than content with the two-party status quo.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott came together in the virtual studio to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:“Stuck in the Middle (East) with You.” The Biden administration is finding itself increasingly pilloried from both sides for its handling of the Oct. 7 massacre perpetrated by Hamas and Israel’s ensuing military response in the Gaza Strip, as the right urges stronger support for Israel while some on the left are becoming more vocal in calling for a ceasefire. How far can the Biden administration walk this tightrope?“Et Tu, Jenna?” Four co-defendants of former President Trump, including Rudy Giuliani’s right hand woman Jenna Ellis, have now pled out and promised to cooperate in the Fulton County prosecution addressing alleged election interference—and media reports indicate that his former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has accepted an immunity deal to testify before a federal grand jury. What does this all mean for Trump’s legal prospects moving forward?“Exit, Stage Far Right.” Former President Trump is reportedly once again planning to exit or diminish NATO if he returns to the White House—a position his contender for Republican nominee Vivek Ramaswamy has endorsed. What is the future of U.S. participation in the NATO alliance?For object lessons, Alan recommended Tiffany Li’s brilliant contribution to McSweeney’s Internet Tendency, “Statement from the University on Current Tensions in the Place You’re Probably Thinking About When You Read This,” which satirizes…exactly what you’re thinking about. Quinta lightened the mood by talking about serial killers in recommending Robert Kolker’s new piece, “The Botched Hunt for the Gilgo Beach Killer,” in the New York Times Magazine. And Scott directed D.C. locals to his favorite amaro distillery, Don Ciccio & Figli, who is brewing up botanicals right here in the city’s own Ivy City neighborhood.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded live before an audience of Lawfare Material Supporters on Thursday. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Quinta Jurecic, and Lawfare Fulton County Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower to talk about all the pleas that have happened in Fulton County and all the pleas that are coming. They talked about whether you can take back a plea by announcing that it was extorted, about the blizzard of motions to dismiss that Donald Trump has filed in the D.C. District Court, and about the government's response to the claims of presidential immunity.This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From July 3, 2018: Recep Tayyip Erdoğan won the Turkish election the other day, and becomes the first president under Turkey's new empowered presidential system. His party, in coalition with ultra-nationalists, will control the Parliament as well, so it's a big win for the Turkish president. It may be a loss for democratic values. On Tuesday, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Amanda Sloat, Robert Bosch Senior Fellow at Brookings, to discuss the election results, the crackdown in Turkey and the justifications for it, friction points in U.S.-Turkish relations, and what comes next for Turkey, the United States, and the EU.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s probably fair to say that the Israeli government was not the only one caught flat-footed by the deadly attack launched by Hamas on Oct. 7. On that day, several of the U.S. government’s top diplomatic posts in the Middle East were vacant, and the Biden administration had long focused most of its attention elsewhere in the world. And, in a now infamous episode from only a week prior to the attack, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan had said, “The Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades.”But all that has changed. Though its record is still up for debate, the U.S. diplomatic response has kicked into gear, with several visits to the region from Sullivan, Secretary of State Blinken, President Biden, and other high-level U.S. officials. To take stock of the U.S. diplomatic response to the war thus far, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Akbar Shahid Ahmed, HuffPost's senior foreign affairs reporter, and Robbie Gramer, a diplomacy and national security reporter at Foreign Policy. They talked about the nearly broken Senate confirmation process, the fallout from a high-level diplomatic resignation, and the potential “mutiny brewing” inside the State Department. They also discussed whether or not a reported dissent cable circulating through the department might shift U.S. policy toward Israel-Palestine.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Many will recognize the voice of Steve Inskeep from his nearly two decades-long role hosting NPR's Morning Edition. But he's also the author of what is now a trilogy of books about political relationships in the United States during the 19th century, including his newly published Differ We Must: How Lincoln Succeeded in a Divided America. His newest book uses a unique framework to study Lincoln's leadership and growth: Describing in detail difficult interactions Lincoln had with sixteen individuals, ranging from generals to political opponents to his wife Mary Todd Lincoln.David Priess spoke with Steve about what drew him to Lincoln as a subject; the challenges of recreating private exchanges from long ago; the links between Differ We Must and his earlier books; Lincoln's difficult conversations with Joshua Giddings, Frederick Douglass, Jessie Benton Frémont, Lean Bear, and others; and enduring lessons of Lincoln's pragmatic leadership.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book Differ We Must by Steve InskeepThe book Instant City by Steve InskeepThe book Jacksonland by Steve InskeepThe book Imperfect Union by Steve InskeepThe book series Abraham Lincoln: A History by John Nicolay and John HayThe book series Abraham Lincoln by Carl SandburgChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals last week faintly endorsed the Justice Department’s reading of a critical felony charge, “corrupt obstruction of an official proceeding,” which the department has relied on to prosecute at least 317 individuals for their alleged roles in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot. In the case, United States v. Thomas Robertson, the court affirmed the Justice Department’s conception of the definition of “corruptly,” as stated in the charge. Robertson followed another D.C. Circuit ruling in April, United States v. Fischer, which upheld the charge even more fragilely.Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff detailed the court’s Robertson decision on Lawfare. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Parloff to discuss Robertson, Fischer, and what it would mean for the Justice Department if its interpretation of the corrupt obstruction statute is ultimately rejected. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Another morning, another surprise plea deal in Fulton County Superior Court. It was Jenna Ellis this time, in front of Judge Scott McAfee, pleading out of the Fulton County election interference case. There was a tearful colloquy and a letter of apology to the people of Georgia. There is a cooperation agreement of some kind, and there is yet another sentence of probation. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down to talk about it all with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower. They talked about how big a deal Jenna Ellis could be for Fani Willis, about how the DA's record is stacking up, about who might be next, and about who's going to hold out and force this whole thing to trial.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thanks to advances in digital technologies, it is now easier than ever for civilians to get involved in military cyber operations. From private civilian companies being involved in cyber defense to individuals engaging in offensive cyber operations against enemy targets, the increased participation of civilians in armed conflict is a risky trend.Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with two guests who recently authored an article outlining eight rules to guide the behavior of civilian hackers during war. Tilman Rodenhäuser is a legal advisor at the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC. Mauro Vignati is a senior adviser on new digital technologies of warfare, also at the ICRC. They talked about what could happen if the principle of distinction is eroded and civilians lose their status, what limits governments should impose on civilian hackers conducting cyber operations in the context of an armed conflict, and the response so far from hacker groups and the cybersecurity community.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The promise and risks posed by artificial intelligence appear to have captured our collective imagination. The risks seem to span from global doom brought about by a rogue AI to the enshrinement of harmful bias and discrimination in systems that can determine whether you get a loan. The stakes require governments to step up and regulate the field, with several key companies advocating for government action. This call has been answered, but conceptions of responsible AI risk management and appropriate regulations are already diverging across jurisdictions.To discuss the approaches to AI regulation in the United States and in the European Union, Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with Arianna Evers, special counsel at WilmerHale, and Itsiq Benizri, counsel also at WilmerHale. Evers and Benizri recently authored an article on comparative approaches to AI regulation for Lawfare. They talked about the breadth of regulatory options being discussed, the similarities and differences across jurisdictions, and how the quickly evolving field affects how they help their clients navigate AI-related challenges.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined by their Lawfare colleague and Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Senior Fellow Eric Ciaramella to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:“PiS Off.” Elections in Poland appear set to oust the incumbent Law and Justice (or “PiS”) party, which has spent the past several years in power undermining many of the tenants of liberal democracy—that is, if the coalition of centrist and leftist groups that won a parliamentary majority can successfully form a government. What might this tell us about the authoritarian drift in Europe—and the extent to which it’s reversible?“Gaza Under Siege.” Israel’s military response to the massacre committed by Hamas is entering its second week, as rockets continue to rain down on Gaza, which remains cut off to most utilities, supplies, and humanitarian aid. President Biden, meanwhile, is in Israel showing his support, but has had to cancel meetings with Jordanian officials due to outrage over what Gaza authorities initially claimed—inaccurately, according to Israeli officials and the Biden administration—was an Israeli attack on a hospital there that killed more than 500 people. What is the trajectory of this conflict? Where is it headed?“Heir Jordan?” Conservative House judiciary committee chairman Jim Jordan is the latest possible inheritor of the Speakership in the House of Representatives, having won the nomination of the Republican caucus shortly after majority leader Steve Scalise went down in defeat on the floor. But Jordan also failed to win enough support for his colleagues in the first two votes on the floor. What does the state of the House mean for the country?For object lessons, Alan passed along his latest tonally off comfort watch: the British series A Spy Among Friends, which tells the story of notorious spy Kim Philby. Quinta recommended the new book, “Number Go Up,” by Zeke Faux. Scott urged folks to check out the surprisingly huggy and wholesome season 2 of The Bear. And secret musician Eric endorsed the Strong Songs podcast and its close look at the song writing process.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” our weekly YouTube livestream conducted on Zoom for Lawfare Material Supporters. It was a breaking news day on Thursday: Sidney Powell, the Kraken lawyer, pled guilty in a plea deal in Fulton County Superior Court, one day before she and Ken Chesebro were going to trial.To unpack it all, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Quinta Jurecic, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han. They talked about the plea, about what it means for Ken Chesebro and the trial for which jury selection was set to start on Friday, about what happened this week in Tanya Chutkan's courtroom where a gag order was imposed on Donald Trump, and about the defense motion to dismiss on presidential immunity grounds in that courtroom and an article about it by Quinta Jurecic.On Oct. 20. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott Anderson sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent for a special edition of "Trump's Trials and Tribulations" to talk about Kenneth Chesebro's surprise guilty plea. This discussion is added to the end of the Thursday conversationThis is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From July 7, 2018: It's been a bad week for Polish democracy, with the government removing a bunch of judges from the country's Supreme Court in order to replace them with party loyalists. In response, protestors took to the streets to push back against the deconsolidation of Polish democracy. Radek Sikorski joined Benjamin Wittes to discuss the week's events and the larger degradation of Polish governance of which they are a part. Radek served as foreign minister and defense minister of Poland, as well as speaker of the Polish parliament. He has also been a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and he's currently a senior fellow at the Center of European Studies at Harvard University and distinguished statesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Over the course of the last two presidential elections, efforts by social media platforms and independent researchers to prevent falsehoods from spreading about election integrity have become increasingly central to civic health. But the warning signs are flashing as we head into 2024. And platforms are arguably in a worse position to counter falsehoods today than they were in 2020. How could this be? On this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down with Dean Jackson, who previously sat down with the Lawfare Podcast to discuss his work as a staffer on the Jan. 6 committee. He worked with the Center on Democracy and Technology to put out a new report on the challenges facing efforts to prevent the spread of election disinformation. They talked through the political, legal, and economic pressures that are making this work increasingly difficult—and what it means for 2024.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Journalist Liza Mundy’s new history of the world’s most storied spy service focuses on the women of the CIA, who for decades worked in jobs that men found less glamorous or career enhancing, and that proved vital to the interests of U.S. national security. The Sisterhood covers practically the entire history of the agency, from its pre-World War II days as the Office of Strategic Services, through the Cold War and the 9/11 attacks, followed by the successful hunt for Osama bin Laden. Shane Harris spoke with Mundy about why she decided to write about the women of the CIA and what that story reveals about the hidden history of the agency. Mundy’s previous book, Code Girls, was about American women who worked as code breakers during WWII.  Among the works mentioned in this episode:The Sisterhood: The Secret History of Women at the CIA   https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/653184/the-sisterhood-by-liza-mundy/ Code Girls: The Untold Story of the American Women Code Breakers of World War II: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/liza-mundy/code-girls/9780316352550/?lens=hachette-books Mundy’s website: http://www.lizamundy.com/ Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In July 2021, the Chinese government published its “Regulations on the Management of Network Product Security Vulnerabilities.” These rules require researchers to inform the government of all flaws in code within 48 hours of their discovery, effectively supporting efforts to stockpile software vulnerabilities, which can then be used for offensive cyber operations.Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with two guests who recently authored a report on how China manages software vulnerabilities. Dakota Cary is a nonresident fellow at the Atlantic Council’s Global China Hub and a consultant at Krebs Stamos Group. Kristin del Rosso is a public sector field CTO at IT security company Sophos. They talked about how companies have adjusted to China’s rules, how their system compares to the U.S. voluntary approach, and the incentives to collect vulnerabilities for offensive operations. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“Stories of armies, governments, agencies, and institutions have a way of obscuring the humans behind them,” writes Stuart Reid, an executive editor of Foreign Affairs in his new book, “The Lumumba Plot.” Indeed, his protagonist, Patrice Lumumba, lays claim to one of history’s most contested legacies. In January 1961, just months after taking office as the first prime minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Lumumba was killed in an assassination plot that remained shrouded in mystery for years. As his daughter Juliana once said, “He passed by like a meteor.” Amid this mystery and contestation, Stuart sets himself to the task of finding the real Lumumba. As Stuart writes, “This book seeks to exhume Lumumba, to scrape away the mounds of lies, mythology, and conspiracy that have accumulated around him over the decades.”Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Stuart to discuss his new book. They talked about the charismatic Congolese leader of course and the other colorful and consequential characters that fill Stuart’s pages, the CIA’s complicity in Lumumba’s assassination, and the neocolonial and Cold War attitudes that led U.S. leaders to view such a tragic foreign policy misstep as an unimpeachable success. They also discussed what lessons “The Lumumba Plot” has for policymakers today. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On September 28, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, or PCLOB, issued its long-awaited report on FISA Sec. 702, a surveillance authority that is set to expire on December 31 if it is not reauthorized by Congress. The report was supported by only three members of the Board, with the two minority members issuing their own separate statement. The three-two split was along party lines. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with four members of the PCLOB, the Chair, Sharon Bradford Franklin, and board members Travis LeBlanc, Beth Williams, and Richard DiZinno. Board member Ed Felten could not join due to medical reasons. In this second of two episodes, they talk about the members’ views on the privacy and civil liberties risks posed by Section 702 and each side’s differing recommendations on how to address these issues, with a special focus on the recommendation that is the most serious point of contention among the two sides. If you haven’t listened to yesterday’s episode, where they talked about the areas on which the members substantially agree and the compliance problems that have plagued the FBI, you may want to do that first. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On September 28, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, or PCLOB, issued its long-awaited report on FISA Sec. 702, a surveillance authority that is set to expire on December 31 if it is not reauthorized by Congress. The report was supported by only three members of the Board, with the two minority members issuing their own separate statement. The three-two split was along party lines. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with four members of PCLOB, the Chair, Sharon Bradford Franklin, and board members Travis LeBlanc, Beth Williams, and Richard DiZinno. Board member Ed Felten could not join due to medical reasons. In this first of two episodes, they talk about areas on which the members substantially agree, the compliance problems that have plagued the FBI, and each side’s different recommendations for how to address those compliance problems. In tomorrow’s podcast, they talk about the members’ views on the privacy and civil liberties risks posed by Section 702, and each side’s differing recommendations for how to address these issues, with a special focus on the recommendation that is the most serious point of contention among the two sides.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined by Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes for a serious conversation about Hamas’s attacks in Israel, Israel’s military response, and what it might mean for the rest of the world. Given the gravity of this topic, we chose to forego our usual format and commit the entire episode to this extended conversation. We will be back to our usual format next week. In the meantime, we hope you find our struggle to make sense of these tragic recent events useful as you try to do the same.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” our YouTube livestream conducted on Zoom for Lawfare Material Supporters. This week, we heard from Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff straight out of the Garcia hearings before Judge Aileen Cannon in the Mar-a-Lago case. We heard from Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, who was straight off of two days of hearings in the Fulton County case. And Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic gave us an update from Judge Tanya Chutkan's courtroom on all the motions that have been filed since our last update. This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From May 8, 2012: Peter Berkowitz of the Hoover Institution has a new book out, entitled Israel and the Struggle Over the International Laws of War. The book, which is very brief—more of a long essay, really—is an impassioned critique of the abuse of the laws of war by Israel's critics in both international organizations and in the academy. Peter runs the Hoover Institution's Koret-Taube Task Force on National Security and Law, of which Ben and several other people associated with this blog are members. He's also—full disclosure—one Ben’s closest personal friends. He took a break from his almost unspeakable travel schedule yesterday to stop by Brookings and chat about his book.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The past two weeks have been a historical one for the House of Representatives. Last week, a band of dissident Republicans voted with House Democrats to remove Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy, leaving the office vacant. In his stead, a never-before House rule turned to a secret list of temporary successors that identified Congressman Patrick McHenry as the new Speaker Pro Tempore. But what exactly he is able to do in this role—and what it means for Congress’s ability to pass much needed legislation—is far from clear.To discuss this new predicament, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Brookings Institution Senior Fellow and Lawfare Senior Editor Molly Reynolds. They talked about the history of the rule behind McHenry’s appointment, what authority its authors intended for it to provide, and what it means for Israel, Ukraine, and the pending government shutdown.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Conventional wisdom has long held that countries, and even businesses, should not be run by those suffering from mental illness, especially during times of war or other dramatic challenges. Dr. Nassir Ghaemi, Director of the Mood Disorder Program at Tufts Medical Center and Professor of Psychiatry at Tufts University School of Medicine, disputes this notion. In his book A First-Rate Madness and other writings, he lays out a compelling case that in times of crisis, we are actually better off being led by mentally ill leaders than by mentally normal ones.David Priess and Nassir talked about the challenges (and surprising advantages) of assessing the mental illnesses of historical figures; the lingering impact of Freudian psychoanalysis within the psychiatric community; why the best crisis leaders are either mentally ill or mentally abnormal; the differences between mental illness and extreme personality; the indicators of manic depression; the cases of Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, William Sherman, Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Adolf Hitler; enduring stigmas associated with mental illness; Nassir's father's political activism and its influence on his son; the American Psychiatric Association's "Goldwater Rule" against offering a professional psychiatric opinion without a patient examination and proper authorization; and more.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book A First-Rate Madness by Nassir GhaemiMemoirs of Emil KraepelinThe book Bipolar General: My Forever War with Mental Illness by Gregg MartinChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Artificial intelligence has massive upside potential. It could revolutionize education, science, and art, and lead to a more prosperous and equitable world. But it also carries equally massive downside risk—not just for individuals but for society and human civilization itself. How do we avail ourselves of AI's benefits while minimizing its costs?That's a question that our two guests today have thought a lot about. Tino Cuéllar is a former Stanford law professor and California supreme court justice, and he's currently the President of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Hadrien Pouget is an Associate Fellow in the Technology and International Affairs Program at Carnegie.Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare spoke with Tino and Hadrien about what lessons history can and can't teach us when it comes to regulating AI and what an international regulatory framework for this technology might look like.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This past Saturday, the terrorist group Hamas launched an unprecedented raid from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel that left more than 1000 people—most of them Israeli civilians, many of them women, children, and the elderly—brutally murdered. Dozens more were taken as hostages back into Gaza. A shocked Israel has in turn responded with missile attacks into Gaza that have killed more than 800 Palestinians there, and is planning a broader offensive there. And as people search for more information on what’s transpired, there are concerns that events may yet spiral out into a broader regional war—one that, among other consequences, might derail efforts at normalization in the Israeli-Saudi relationship that have been a major focus of the United States in recent weeks.To discuss these tragic events and their potentially seismic consequences, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with a panel of leading experts: Natan Sachs, a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution and Director of its Center for Middle East Policy; Dan Byman from the Center for Strategic & International Studies as well as Lawfare’s Foreign Policy Editor; Ghaith al-Omari of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy; and Lawfare’s Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes. They discussed the ripple effects the attack is having throughout the region, the role that Iran and other actors may have played, and what it may yet mean for the region and the broader world. Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This morning, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes connected with his old friend Noah Efron about the weekend's events in Israel. Noah is a professor at Bar-Ilan University, a prolific essayist and writer, and the host of The Promised Podcast, a podcast on Israeli life, politics, and culture.In an interview punctuated twice by missile attacks, they discussed what happened over the weekend, the magnitude and horror of the Hamas attack, the impact on Israeli society, and the coming Israeli response in Gaza. They talked about the weird interregnum between the violence over the weekend and the violence that's to come and how quiet things are right now, about whether Israeli society is coming together or whether it is coming apart, about the implications of Hamas holding many hostages for the way the war is going to play out, and more.Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For decades, the United States has maintained a policy of “strategic ambiguity” toward Taiwan and China. But in recent years, this uneasy status quo has begun to falter, as the Biden administration doubles down on its commitment to Taiwan’s autonomy and China increases provocative military maneuvers aimed at signaling its willingness to use force to assert its claim of sovereignty over the island. Despite the devastation that war between the U.S. and China would surely bring, the two seem to be inching ever closer to conflict. At the same time, many policy assessments seem to assume that the president has the domestic legal authority to defend Taiwan in the event of a sudden and unexpected attack by China. But in a recent article for the Virginia Journal of International Law called “Taiwan, War Powers, and Constitutional Crisis,” Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson argues that history paints a much more complicated picture. As Scott writes, “An international crisis over Taiwan could thus … trigger a constitutional crisis at home—one that threatens the legitimacy of the president’s response and risks undermining popular and congressional support for what is certain to be a difficult war to come.” Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Scott to discuss his article. They walked through the various legislation, legal opinions, and communiques through successive presidential administrations that have defined the U.S. position towards Taiwan to the present day. They also discussed how tensions between the executive and legislative branches might play out in the event of an attack on Taiwan, as well as how the government as a whole might avoid them. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From August 12, 2020: President Trump recently issued executive orders aimed at banning TikTok and WeChat from operating in the United States. To discuss the sanction, Bobby Chesney sat down with Dr. Sheena Chestnut Greitens, an associate professor at the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin and a faculty affiliate with the Strauss Center for International Security and Law and the Clements Center for National Security at UT; and Dr. Ronald Deibert, a professor of political science and the founder and director of The Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto's Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. In addition to the executive orders concerning TikTok and WeChat, they also discussed the larger U.S.-China relationship and the role of technology competition in that space.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were once again joined by Congress guru Molly Reynolds to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:“Master of the House, Doling out the Harm, Ready with a Handshake and a Face Palm.” Over the weekend, Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy narrowly avoided a government shutdown. But this week it cost him his speakership, as Democrats joined a bloc of far-right Republicans to vote in favor of a motion to vacate the office. What does this say about the state of the House? And what does it mean for the Biden administration’s legislative agenda moving forward?“Serving Life to 20.” As the Supreme Court begins its new term under increased scrutiny for ethical lapses, several members of Congress have once again introduced legislation that would impose 18-year term limits on the Court’s members. But would this proposal fix the problem? And is it constitutional?“A Foreign Confluence Operation.” Washington has been in a tizzy this week with scandalizing reports of an Iranian influence operation that purportedly sought to influence U.S. policy through several prominent scholars of Iranian descent—some of whom now serve in the Biden administration or are close to beleaguered Iran Special Envoy Rob O’Malley, whose security clearance is currently suspended. What should we make of this story? For object lessons, Alan gave a shout-out to the most recent incarnation of Dune and its soon-to-be-forthcoming sequel. Quinta urged listeners to check out the book “Your Face Belongs to Us,” the creepy-yet-true story of the growth of facial recognition technology and the rise of the start-up that sold it worldwide. And Scott recommended his favorite seasonal cookbook as we get into the cold weather months: Anna Thomas’s “Love Soup.”Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” our weekly live stream on YouTube—and on Zoom for Material Supporters. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett, Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff, and Legal Fellow Anna Bower to talk about all kinds of things on a whirlwind tour around four different courts.The talked about what’s going on in the New York civil case, what’s with all of these gag orders and gag order requests, what’s up in the Mar-a-Lago case in south Florida, who is pleading guilty in Fulton County, and what’s up with this new motion to dismiss in Washington on asserted grounds of presidential immunity.This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From December 23, 2017: As the year is coming to a close, Congress has now missed the deadline for reauthorizing FISA Section 702. Molly Reynolds, a Brookings fellow in Governance Studies and expert on Congress, joined Benjamin Wittes and Susan Hennessey for a conversation on the failure to reauthorize and what happens next. They discussed the politics of Section 702, the influence of this year's overall legislative agenda, and what to expect in 2018 for the crucial intelligence apparatus.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The First Amendment protects speech, but what kind? True speech, sure. But what about false or misleading speech? What if it's harmful? After all, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater—or can you?To answer these questions, Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare spoke with Jeff Kosseff, who is an Associate Professor of Cybersecurity Law in the United States Naval Academy’s Cyber Science Department and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare. Jeff is releasing his latest book this month, titled "Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation," in which he describes, and defends, the First Amendment's robust protections for false and misleading speech.They spoke about the book, why you sometimes can yell fire in a crowded theater, and how new technology both superchargers misinformation and provides new tools to fight it.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Chatter, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Ben Wittes sat down with author and journalist Jonathan Rauch, of the Brookings Institution. In a wide-ranging conversation, they spoke about Jonathan's numerous books, his start in journalism, and his focus on liberalism, Madisonian Pluralism, and religion within democratic institutions.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today, we’re bringing you an episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem. And we’re discussing the hot topic of the moment: artificial intelligence. There are a lot of less-than-informed takes out there about AI and whether it’s going to kill us all—so we’re glad to be able to share an interview that hopefully cuts through some of that noise.Janet Haven is the Executive Director of the nonprofit Data and Society and a member of the National Artificial Intelligence Advisory Committee, which provides guidance to the White House on AI issues. Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down alongside Matt Perault, Director of the Center on Technology and Policy at UNC-Chapel Hill, to talk through their questions about AI governance with Janet. They discussed how she evaluates the dangers and promises of artificial intelligence, how to weigh the different concerns posed by possible future existential risk to society posed by AI versus the immediate potential downsides of AI in our everyday lives, and what kind of regulation she’d like to see in this space. If you’re interested in reading further, Janet mentions this paper from Data and Society on “Democratizing AI” in the course of the conversation.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's been an eventful few days in Fulton County with a flurry of orders, a flurry of briefings, the former president deciding he wasn't going to seek removal to federal court, waiting for the 11th Circuit to rule on other people's removals, and other removals being denied—there’s just been a lot going on. To catch up, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower. They talked about whether we’ll really see this case going to trial on October 23, about bail bondsman Scott Hall’s plea agreement, about whether other people will take the plea, about why Donald Trump is not seeking removal, and about all the people who want removal who just can't seem to get it. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you’ve been following the news out of Congress recently, you’ve probably been focusing on the narrowly averted government shutdown and the indictment of Democratic Senator Bob Menendez—and, perhaps, the House Republicans’ decision to begin an impeachment inquiry against President Biden. But there have also been some notable updates when it comes to the continuing fallout from Jan. 6. Recently, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit unsealed an opinion limiting the ability of the special counsel’s office to access phone records from Rep. Scott Perry under the Speech and Debate Clause. Meanwhile, Trump’s onetime advisor Peter Navarro was finally convicted of contempt of Congress for defying the Jan. 6 committee.  Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Molly Reynolds sat down with two of our favorite guests to call when there’s news about Congress and the law: Mike Stern, former Senior Counsel to the House of Representatives, and Eric Columbus, who recently served as Special Litigation Counsel in the House Office of General Counsel. They discussed Perry, Navarro, how exactly one should define an impeachment inquiry, and, of course, the Menendez indictment.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Russia’s war against Ukraine is the most documented conflict in history. In every part of Ukraine from which Russian forces have retreated, Ukrainian officials and civil society groups have found shocking evidence of mass atrocities and war crimes: torture, rape, summary executions, forced disappearances, looting, and the destruction of Ukrainian cultural heritage sites. The Ukrainian government is working around the clock to seek justice for the victims, even as the war rages on.In this special podcast episode, Lawfare Contributing Editor Eric Ciaramella brings you audio from a recent event at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace featuring Ukraine’s Prosecutor General, Andriy Kostin. In his discussion with Carnegie President Tino Cuéllar, Kostin laid out a compelling case for why Ukrainians believe that peace without justice and accountability would be a false peace. Kostin discussed how his office is dealing with the overwhelming caseload and the help it needs from international partners. This event was organized in partnership with the American Society of International Law and the Embassy of Ukraine in Washington.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott reunited to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:“Do as I Menendsez, Not as I Menendo.” New Jersey Senator and, until recently, chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee Bob Menendez was indicted alongside his wife last week, on charges that they accepted money from Egyptian businessmen in exchange for information and favors arising from Menendez’s official duties. How serious are these charges? Where will they lead?“…with a Silver Spoon.” D.C. federal district court judge Tanya Chutkan is weighing a gag order on former President Trump, aimed at restraining him from commenting on the proceedings or attacking various officials involved in them. Trump and his attorneys, meanwhile, see the gag order request as an attack on his First Amendment rights. Who is likely to prevail? And what are the broader stakes?“The Forever Chore.” The House foreign affairs committee is set to hold the latest in a long series of hearings on a topic that has been on Congress’s agenda for more than a decade: reforming the 2001 AUMF that provides the legal basis for most global counterterrorism operations. But despite near-universal agreement on the need for change, progress has been limited. Is there reason to think this time will be different?For object lessons, Alan recommended the Dear Committee Trilogy, which even non-academics will find hilarious. Quinta urged listeners to check out the recent New York court decision concluding that former President Trump and his businesses misrepresented the value of various properties. And Scott log-rolled for his new law review article digging into some of the tricky constitutional issues raised by the prospect of defending Taiwan.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's another episode of Lawfare's live Thursday show, “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” a tour around four courts. This week, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and Lawfare Senior Editors Scott R. Anderson and Roger Parloff. They talked about what's going on in Fulton County, about that judgment against Donald Trump and the Trump Organization in the civil case in New York, about Tanya Chutkan’s refusal to recuse herself, and about CIPA, CIPA, CIPA—classified materials in Mar-a-Lago. This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From December 9, 2020: President-elect Joe Biden has selected a new defense secretary, retired general Lloyd Austin, former commander of Central Command. The selection has received somewhat mixed reviews, and to discuss why, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Brookings senior fellow Mike O'Hanlon, a defense policy analyst, and Kori Schake, the head of defense and foreign policy at the American Enterprise Institute. They talked about why people are upset about General Austin's nomination, his background, the experience he has and doesn't have, who would have been a better choice and whether it matters that this is the second administration in a row that begins by putting a retired general at the head of the Pentagon.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Cyber Safety Review Board was created by a Biden administration Executive Order entitled, “Improving the Nation’s Cybersecurity.” The Board reviews major cyber events and makes concrete recommendations that can drive improvements within the private and public sectors. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Robert Silvers, Under Secretary for Strategy, Policy, and Plans at the Department of Homeland Security and Chair of the Cyber Safety Review Board, to discuss the Board’s mission and work. They talked about the two reports that the Board has issued, one that it’s currently working on, and a legislative proposal from DHS that seeks to codify the Board in the law and ensure that the Board receives the information it needs to continue to advance the overall security and resiliency of our digital ecosystem.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As humanity builds settlements beyond Earth, myriad ethical issues will arise--many in a different way than they do terrestrially. Astrophysicist and space communicator Erika Nesvold has devoted extensive thought and research to how to ethically govern space settlements, most notably on her podcast Making New Worlds and in her book Off-Earth.In a conversation that pairs well with Shane Harris's March 2022 Chatter discussion with astrobiologist Lucianne Walkowicz about ethical space exploration, David Priess spoke with Erika about her grounding in Star Trek and other science fiction, the JustSpace Alliance that she co-founded with Lucianne, that alliance's interactions with space industrialists, Erika's application to be an astronaut, conflicting motivations for humanity to settle space, how we should select space settlers, the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, the concept of legal personhood for non-terrestrial bodies, labor law and criminal justice in space settlements, how motivations for settling space influence openness to various forms of government, and more.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The podcast Making New WorldsThe book Off-Earth by Erika NesvoldThe Chatter podcast episode Ethical Space Exploration with Lucianne WalkowiczThe Star Trek universeThe Foundation book series by Isaac AsimovThe Dune book series by Frank HerbertThe YouTube video All TomorrowsThe movie 2012The book 2010 by Arthur C. ClarkeThe book Artemis by Andy WeirThe movie SunshineThe book A Brief History of Equality by Thomas PinkettyThe book series The Wheel of Time by Robert JordanThe book Doomsday Book by Connie WillisChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Next month, Kenneth Chesebro—the alleged architect of the fake electors plot—is set to be tried in Fulton County, Georgia, on racketeering and other charges. This week, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower sat down with Chesebro’s defense attorneys, Scott Grubman, Manny Arora, and Robert Wilson. In a wide-ranging conversation, they discussed why Chesebro demanded a speedy trial, debated the merits of several pending motions, and chatted about the prospect of a settlement in Chesebro’s case.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On September 19, Under Secretary for Intelligence and Analysis at the Department of Homeland Security, Kenneth Wainstein, gave a speech at the Brookings Institution on the current threat environment and the role of the Department of Homeland Security's Intelligence and Analysis Office (I&A) in confronting it. Following the speech, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Wainstein sat down for a Q&A, both between them and with the live audience at Falk Auditorium at the Brookings Institution. It's a wide-ranging conversation about the lessons of 9/11, how we seem to have forgotten them in certain respects, current congressional efforts to rein in I&A’s intelligence-gathering activities domestically, and the post-Jan. 6 need for those authorities.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On August 21, the Human Rights Watch released a report detailing systematic abuses of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers at the Saudi Arabia-Yemen border. Researchers interviewed dozens of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers and found that Saudi border guards had used explosive weapons on them and shot migrants at close range. Lawfare’s Associate Editor of Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Joey Shea, a researcher in the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch who investigates human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. They discussed the Human Rights Watch recent report, how the international community has responded so far, and the human rights record of Prince Mohammed bin Salman since he ascended the throne in 2015. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For the past several months, Ukraine has been engaged in a grinding counteroffensive aimed at retaking lost territory from Russian invaders. Last week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky joined President Biden for the U.N. General Assembly meeting in New York to make the case for continued support of Ukraine's efforts—a message they then repeated to members of Congress concerning whether to move forward a much-needed aid package.To discuss the state of the Ukraine offensive and where it sits in the broader political context, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with two leading experts: Eric Ciaramella and Dara Massicot, both of whom are senior fellows in the Russia and Eurasia Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. They discussed the state of the counteroffensive, how Zelensky's pitches in New York and D.C. went, and where the conflict seems likely to head in this next phase.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare colleagues Eric Ciaramella and Saraphin Dhanani, the latter for her last episode of RatSec before departing Lawfare, to break down the week’s big national security news stories, including:“UNGA UNGA Party.” President Biden and Ukrainian President Volodmyr Zelenskyy made back-to-back addresses to the U.N. General Assembly, which is gathered in New York for its annual summit this week. What should we make of their statements? Might this be a turning point for the conflict—and, if so, in which direction?“Et Tu, Modi?” Canada has leveled a serious allegation against the government of India: that it was directly involved in the recent assassination of a Sikh separatist leader (and Canadian citizen) on Canadian soil—something that promises to complicate U.S. efforts to bring India into the fold as a balance to China. How credible are these claims and what might they mean?“Ransomwhere?” The Biden administration has struck a deal with the government of Iran, exchanging several imprisoned Iranian nationals and $6 billion in frozen oil revenue for five U.S. nationals held by Iran and their spouses. Is this negotiating with terrorists, a new opening for Iran negotiations, or something else entirely?For object lessons, Quinta recommended Tyler Austin Harper’s penetrating review of Richard Hanania’s “The Origins of Woke.” Eric also went the critic’s route and passed along Gary Shteyngart’s withering review of Walter Isaacson’s new Elon Musk biography. Scott urged anyone with a junior mycologist at home to run out and find Elise Gravel’s charming “The Mushroom Fan Club.” And Saraphin gave a double-headed finale: BBC’s controversial documentary “India: The Modi Question,” which has been banned in India; and David Brooks’ recent article, “How America Got Mean.”Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This past Thursday, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson hosted “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” Lawfare’s weekly live video chat about developments in the many ongoing trials circulating around former President Trump. He was joined by Lawfare’s two leading court reporters, Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Legal Fellow Anna Bower, both of whom have been closely following developments in courthouses around the country, both from afar and sometimes up close and personal. They talked about removal proceedings in Georgia, a proposed gag order of the former president in Washington, D.C., and new news about how former President Trump allegedly mishandled classified information in Florida, as well as the coming wave of litigation around the country seeking to disqualify Trump from the presidency under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From May 25, 2019: Our friends from the National Security Institute at George Mason University stopped by earlier this week to discuss U.S.-China relations. Lester Munson, Jodi Herman, Jamil Jaffer, and Dana Stroul, former Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffers who collaborated and sometimes competed with one another on the Committee, had a lively discussion about Huawei, cyber and tech security, the South China sea, and Uighur internment.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.