The Good Fight

Yascha Mounk and Sebastian Mallaby discuss why tech leaders both fear and accelerate dangerous AI development, and whether open-source models pose unacceptable risks. Sebastian Mallaby is the author of several books including The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind, and the Quest for Superintelligence. A former Financial Times contributing editor and two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist, Mallaby is the Paul A. Volcker Senior Fellow for International Economics at the Council on Foreign Relations. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Sebastian Mallaby discuss why AI developers simultaneously fear and advance potentially dangerous technology, whether open-source AI models pose unacceptable security risks, and how China and the United States differ in their approaches to AI safety. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠⁠⁠this link on your phone⁠⁠⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Apple⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Google⁠⁠⁠ X: ⁠⁠⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠Yascha Mounk⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠Persuasion⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and David Autor discuss how policy failures made trade disruption worse—and why we're still making the same mistakes. David Autor is the Daniel (1972) and Gail Rubinfeld Professor in the MIT Department of Economics, codirector of the NBER Labor Studies Program and the James M. and Cathleen D. Stone Center on Inequality and Shaping the Future of Work. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and David Autor discuss whether the economic pessimism of the 2010s was justified, what lessons we failed to learn from the China trade shock, and how artificial intelligence will reshape the American job market. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠⁠this link on your phone⁠⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Apple⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Google⁠⁠ X: ⁠⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠Yascha Mounk⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Persuasion⁠⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and David Goodhart explore how the domination of mobile, university-educated “anywheres” sparked the populist revolt. David Goodhart is a journalist, author and think tanker, and currently head of the demography unit at the Policy Exchange think tank. His latest book is The Care Dilemma: Freedom, Family and Fertility. In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and David Goodhart discuss why the triumphalist worldview of the early 2000s has collapsed, how the “anywhere” versus “somewhere” divide explains contemporary populism, and whether meritocracy is creating an insulated professional class that damages the communities it leaves behind. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Shashank Joshi examine whether the United States and Israel are achieving their strategic objectives in the Middle East. Shashank Joshi is Defence Editor at The Economist, where he writes on a wide range of national security, defence and intelligence issues. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Shashank Joshi discuss how the war of attrition between the United States, Israel, and Iran is unfolding, whether military successes justify the enormous economic and strategic costs, and why Iran’s nuclear program remains largely untouched despite being a primary justification for the conflict. Note: This episode was recorded on March 18, 2026. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Ibram X. Kendi also discuss anti-racism, equity, and education. Ibram X. Kendi is Professor of History and the founding director of the Howard University Institute for Advanced Study, an interdisciplinary research enterprise examining global racism. His latest book is Chain of Ideas: The Origins of Our Authoritarian Age. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Ibram X. Kendi discuss whether great replacement theory is the common basis for political movements from India to Argentina, the role of racist policy in different outcomes between racial groups, and how to define equity vs equality. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Adrian Wooldridge explore how liberalism reinvented itself through past crises—and what that means for its survival today. Adrian Wooldridge is the global business columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. He is the author or co-author of 12 books, including Centrists of the World Unite: The Lost Genius of Liberalism. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Adrian Wooldridge discuss how liberalism emerged as a solution to concrete historical problems, why the fundamental challenges liberalism addressed in the 17th and 18th centuries have returned in new forms today, and what lessons the origins of liberalism offer for defending it against contemporary threats. We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our series on Liberal Virtues and Values. That liberalism is under threat is now a cliché—yet this has done nothing to stem the global resurgence of illiberalism. Part of the problem is that liberalism is often considered too “thin” to win over the allegiance of citizens, and that liberals are too afraid of speaking in moral terms. Liberalism’s opponents, by contrast, speak to people’s passions and deepest moral sentiments. This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, aims to change that narrative. In podcast conversations and long-form pieces, we feature content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss truth, trust, and accountability—until he abruptly ended the interview. In January, I received an email from Klaus Schwab about a new book he had just published, called Restoring Truth and Trust. It was, he told me, “part of my broader series aimed at helping a global audience understand and respond to the profound changes shaping our societies, economies, and institutions.” I decided to invite Schwab onto my podcast. In his role at Davos, he had helped to shape, or at least to midwife, the global order which is now suffering an unprecedented crisis. Given the themes of his book, he seemed open to a genuinely searching conversation about which elements of this order were worth preserving, which others in need of jettisoning—and what responsibility the elites he knew so well might have for our current travails. I was greatly looking forward to the conversation, and approached it the way I do most of my podcasts: I was determined both to give Schwab an opportunity to present his ideas in the most compelling possible way, and to interrogate them critically. A few questions in, it became clear that the conversation was not going well. Whenever I mildly pushed back at some point he was making, Schwab looked visibly annoyed. After about twenty minutes, he suddenly broke off the conversation, saying that he had a migraine. After giving Schwab time to recover, a member of his team stepped in and requested that we reschedule the conversation, which we were happy to do in the circumstances. Naturally, we gave Schwab’s team many opportunities to resume the conversation. We offered numerous options for when we could record the rest of the conversation, and invited them to suggest a time that would work for him. But after a few back-and-forth exchanges, it became clear that his team had no real interest in doing so. Eventually, they openly admitted as much, writing that “Professor Schwab has decided that he does not wish to continue with the podcast.” They also asked us multiple times not to release the part of the conversation we did record. Some podcasters consider it a kind of trophy when a public figure like Schwab walks out of an interview because he does not like the line of questioning. I don’t. The point of my podcast is to facilitate genuine conversations across ideological differences. In the 437 episodes I have recorded so far, I have sometimes experienced moments of genuine tension, and perhaps occasional flashes of hostility; but not a single guest has ever walked out of a previous recording. Given the nature of my questions, I must admit to being even more bewildered by this turn of events. Schwab has for decades been in one of the most influential positions in the international firmament of power and influence. None of the questions I asked were posed in the spirit of a gotcha question. Are some of the most powerful people in the world really that allergic to basic intellectual scrutiny? But don’t take my word for it. Instead, listen for yourself. —Yascha Klaus Schwab is the founder and former Executive Chairman of the World Economic Forum. His latest book is Restoring Truth and Trust. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Klaus Schwab discuss whether the principles underlying global cooperation can survive today’s political upheaval, how democratic institutions can respond to rising populist movements without appearing tone-deaf to voters’ legitimate grievances, and what stakeholder capitalism means in practical terms for corporate decision-making. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Dean Ball examine how the fight over autonomous weapons and mass surveillance reveals the impossible choices facing American AI policy. Dean W. Ball served as Senior Policy Advisor at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, where he was the primary staff drafter of America’s AI Action Plan. He writes the AI-focused newsletter Hyperdimensional. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Dean Ball discuss the clash between Anthropic and the Department of War over AI usage restrictions, why mass domestic surveillance capabilities make AI governance so challenging, and how to regulate transformative technologies under conditions of radical uncertainty. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: [email protected] Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices