TCC Podcast #242: The 28 Month Client with Jared Macdonald

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Full Transcript:

Rob:  One of the big challenges of running a copywriting business is finding clients. And unless you have retainers, once you find a good client and do the work, you’ve got to go back out there and find another client and then another. But what if the great clients that you have could stick with you, offering project after project month after month so you don’t have to spend your time prospecting and instead you can focus on problem solving. That’s what Jared McDonald, our guest for the 242nd episode of the Copywriter Club podcast does. His average client relationship lasts almost two and a half years. And we asked him what he does that makes his clients so happy and he shared a few ideas that any copywriter can implement into their business.

Kira:  Before we hear what Jared has to say, this podcast episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Think Tank mastermind, which Jared has participated in. The Think Tank is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new revenue streams in their businesses, receive coaching from the two of us and ultimately grow to six figures or more. Up until last year, we only opened the Think Tank once a year, but today we invite a few new members each month. If you’ve been looking for a mastermind group to help you grow, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more.

Rob:  Okay. Let’s jump into our interview with Jared with this question about how he became a copywriter, a marketing consultant, and a UX strategist.

Jared:  Yeah, it’s a great question. I mean, from a story perspective, do you want the short version, long version? No.

Rob:  I want a medium version. Sort of in the middle.

Jared:  Medium, yeah? Medium details. Yeah. I mean, I started out in experiential marketing and doing sales as well. And then it really wasn’t until I went to… Wanted to go to school to be a diplomat in foreign languages for some odd reason. And then, as you both know, my kind of cancer diagnosis and that whole journey kind of led me out of that path and it couldn’t have been the best. It was literally the best thing because I managed to get a gig at a startup downtown Toronto, because I’m Canadian. And then started there, started content marketing, content strategy. And that’s kind of where the words, coming from a sports journalism background. Rob, you know I’m a big baseball fan. So I was covering baseball and hockey for a long time on the side.

It wasn’t until I met you fine folks in the Copy Hackers mastermind where words can sell and the rest is kind of history. So moving from there, I loved the research side and I still do write copy periodically now, but not as much anymore. And I just love the research side. So at the same time, shortly after I met you both, I segued into user experience through the Nielsen Norman Group and really kind of saw a lot of overlaps with user experience and copy research. And then it kind of just blossomed from there. And since then, I’ve worked with e-commerce clients, financial startups as well and heavily on strategy right now, but used to write copy.

Rob:  You started out with experiential marketing, you said. Tell us more about that. That may not be a term that everybody’s heard. Obviously referring to the experience and marketing experience, but yeah, what is that and what were you doing?

Jared:  Yeah, it’s funny because I didn’t even really know what experiential marketing is. In the world that we’re in with list building and wanting to create a list and provide an experience, this was kind of doing that but in person. So it was at sporting events and essentially, maybe we can link a photo in the show notes, but essentially it was backpacks with full sound and laptops inside and there were screens over top of your head. You do outdoor. I know Kira is already picturing this is great.

So you’d be outside at sporting events or tailgate parties and those kinds of things and brands at the time like Blackberry and stuff would hire us. And you’re basically providing an in-person experience and you take photos of people with cameras and you’d have a wrist keyboard that you would enter in their email to email them photos of the event. Yeah, this was kind of list building. And obviously back then, I wouldn’t have had any clue I’d even go into user experience or anything like that. So it’s kind of funny how things, I’ve always been prioritizing the experience and now I’m doing it digitally instead of in person.

Rob:  I was hoping that you were one of the guys in the president’s costumes running around the track at like nationals game or whatever, but not like that.

Jared:  Yeah. President or the big celery costume or a hot wing.

Rob:  Exactly.

Jared:  And then you fall down intentionally to let the other… Yeah. Oh, that’s great.

Kira:  When people walk up to you, what was on the screen above your head?

Jared:  Yeah, I know, it’s so mysterious. I mean, it was promos for kind of a Blackberry model or features or we had like a camera app. There were different apps because there was a laptop in the backpack. There was a lot of different apps and functionality that we could do with it. But the two most common ones were just kind of a video playing with full sound. And because the screen was over top of your head, you’d stick out and a crowd of people would come up to you. The people I was managing at the time, we hired really extroverted people who just loved going up and talking to others and just kind of breaking the ice. So it was a lot of fun.

Rob:  This seems like a job you should have had, Kira. This is the perfect job for you.

Kira:  I would be so bad at that. I would be like, “Don’t talk to me. I don’t want to talk to you.” But I feel like Jared’s friendly and that would be perfect. Like you’re tall, so you stand out. People can see the screen.

Jared:  Well, I was just going to say the same thing about you. I was going to say the same thing about you. People would ask you, “Wow, you’re so tall.” And you probably don’t get that often, right Kira?

Kira:  No, I don’t get that enough. So that would have been a good job for me. What lessons did you learn from that experience of having that job where you’re out there and you’re taking photos of people and marketing that way? Lessons that could help freelance copywriters today.

Jared:  It’s interesting sometimes to apply in person experiences or even conferences now, but back then, I mean, I think really wanting to provide a unique kind of experience. And I think there’s a lot of opportunity for copywriters like us to really go outside the norm and really create a unique experience, whether it’s in your sales process or onboarding. There’s so many opportunities to delight and that’s really what this was about back then, was yes, you would take people’s photos and be able to email them a photo of the event afterwards. And then obviously the brand would have the contact info and the same kinds of things.

But I think it was just so much better to just be there with your friends. You didn’t have a camera and you could get a photo emailed to you. That was just one kind of example. But I think really the main thing was just to look for opportunities to delight in the experiences that you’re having, whether it’s with clients or your students or members or however we want to call them. You hear customer experience right now and it’s a buzz term, but what does that actually mean? And I think really just wanting to find opportunities to delight and over-deliver.

Rob:  I know we’re going to come back to this idea because it’s something that you’re focused on in your business today before we get to what you’re doing today. You’re I think the first almost diplomat we’ve ever had on the podcast too.

Kira:  Yeah, I didn’t know that about you.

Rob:  What was the drill about? Yeah, what were you thinking? You were thinking like, hey, I’m going to be what? The ambassador to Nigeria, Egypt, China. Like what’s the thought process, what were you thinking?

Jared:  Oh my gosh. Well, I’ve always had a thing for languages. I’ve always enjoyed communication and building rapport with people. Obviously this comes out in sales and other elements now. But yeah, I mean, I was in French immersion since grade one in early immersion. Obviously being in Canada, French is a big thing. And yeah, I just, I grew a liking to it. I took German in high school. I’d always loved languages. And I thought, okay, if I’m going to go, I’m going to go for something like this. The career choices for whatever reason were being an ambassador. And to be honest, I didn’t have this kind of foreign policy real interest, but I just really liked the languages and kind of being what’s called a polyglot where you’re able to speak multiple languages. So yeah, it was a fun experience before the health stuff took me out. That was a whole fun experience too. But yeah, I mean, in your morning you have Spanish and then the afternoon you have Mandarin Chinese and your brain’s melting because it’s very different languages, but it was a lot of fun.

Kira:  Which languages can you speak today?

Jared:  Oh my gosh, we’re going to pivot now. We’re going to do part of the interview in German, part of it in French. Yeah. No, I mean right now, just English and French. I mean, I can speak a little bit of Spanish and I’ve lost the German. It’s a nice romance language. The Mandarin Chinese has vanished, but being able to write it was kind of the most fun for a little bit.

Kira:  That’s so cool. You mentioned the health stuff took you out. Can you talk a little bit more about what health stuff took you out and how you came back from that too and what that even look like.

Jared:  Yeah. Just looking back on it now, I think you never have things figured out. I think you can have a plan, sometimes plans change and mine did in a drastic way. But I think just kind of taking it head on and I think just looking back at it, I think being dealt the wrong hand or winning the wrong lottery as people called it. Essentially looking back on it now and realizing that that was the best thing that could have happened because I never would have been where I am now if it wasn’t for that time, not to mention learning a lot and bonding with people and just being able to just have a lot of, I don’t want to say a lot of fun at the time, but having a lot of fun talking about it after the fact just to people I know on certain things.

So in short, it was exam week when I was at school and it was just like I had gotten back from a destination wedding. You get back on a Saturday, you’ve got multiple calls from your doctor’s office and you can’t call them back because they’re closed. So that’s kind of a funky thing. I kind of went to church in Sunday morning. I was kind of like this is out of sorts. This is uneasy feeling. And then Monday morning it was like a suspicion of the secular cancer. And then tomorrow morning you’re going to see a specialist and then you’re in the OR the next day. And then three weeks later you’re in chemotherapy. It was a whole whirlwind, but like what an experience, and just being able to meet people at the hospital and meet just amazing doctors and nurses. Yeah, it sounds really bizarre, but I would not change anything.

I’m grateful for the whole. It’s probably about a year. There were multiple surgeries, chemo for three months, lost my hair, the whole deal. But I mean, fortunately my hair grew back the same color and the same style. For a while, my first hair growth was all curly and I was worried that I was going to have, nothing against curly hair, but I was a little worried. But I just, I met women who had had black hair and it grew back red and curly and just weird things. So I was really fortunate and thankful overall.

Rob:  I’ve heard people share stories like that in marketing and in copywriting. And it seems like going through something like that builds empathy in a way that maybe other experiences don’t. Have you found that and has it made you more empathetic, your copy is different or your approach to clients is different having gone through such a traumatic and in some ways life-threatening experience?

Jared:  Yeah. I think definitely. I mean, perspective is the word that kind of comes to mind. I think if I was to really think about kind of an overarching kind of theme, just really you don’t know what anybody’s battling. You don’t know what anybody’s going through. And I think, especially in this age of public personas and social media and visibility and being out there, some people are really real when they share, but I think that’s kind of something that, I mean, the cancer stuff definitely added. But I think just really just my whole life just kind of people all have challenges. There’s no your challenges are harder than other people’s. I had a friend who lost his mom and then he lost his dad three weeks before his wedding. And he’s like, “Man, this is nothing. You went through cancer.” And I’m like, “No, you don’t have either of your parents.”

I’m like, at the end of the day, there’s no tiering to struggle. It’s just if somebody is having “a minor struggle” or whatever it is, just you don’t know what anybody’s going through. So I think, yeah, Rob, tying back to what you were saying about empathy, I think it’s just really important to kind of maybe take yourself out of it and not really compare somebody else’s experience to yours and just kind of be understanding about their own situation. And at the end of the day, it’s all unfortunate. I mean, it’d be great if none of us had any struggles to go through, but they do shape you. They shape your character. Yeah, I think just really not being quick to judge others or being quick to have a comment on what they’re going through because you probably have no idea.

Kira:  What advice would you give to someone who may be listening and is going through a struggle. Like you said, there’s varying degrees. Could be really bad or it feels huge to them. What would you say to them if they’re in the middle of it and feeling really alone based off your experience?

Jared:  Yeah. I think just first off, I mean, you aren’t alone. I think there’s people who do care about you, there’s people who want to hear what you’re going through and you can reach out. I think it’s just, it’s so hard sometimes because when you, especially mindset for what we do and especially if you’re doing something new or there’s so many mental challenges and struggles alone, let alone real life and other hiccups or obstacles or roadblocks, whatever you want to call them, that either intentionally come in or surprisingly come in. So I think, yeah, I mean, just trying to see the positive out of it. And I think, again, at the time, I mean, obviously I was upset with something like that but almost measuring it down the road.

I mean, you’re going through a storm, you’re being tested for something for a reason. But you will get through it. A friend of mine has a saying. Whether things are good or bad, things will change. And I think it’ll get better and you will kind of come out and you’ll learn something from it, you’ll be shaped from it. I think it’s hard to look at the positive during something. I won’t lie to you both, I didn’t have a smile on my face every single day, but I think just wanting to… Yeah, I think just taking the positive out of it and realizing that it will come to an end, whatever it is.

Rob:  I’m going to change our subject just a little bit, which is maybe sort of a cold turning from this amazing human experience to talking back about your business. But tell us about your business today, the kinds of clients that you’re working with. You mentioned UX and e-comm and the way that you’ve brought different things together. I know you’ve worked with a really big bank client for a long time. Just tell us about your business today.

Jared:  Yeah, absolutely. There’s two things about me. One is going against the grain and not really doing what everyone’s doing and that has been good sometimes and it’s been bad sometimes, but it’s uniquely me and I won’t I won’t fight that. But the other thing too is doing things that don’t scale. Sometimes I’m a big believer in that, especially early on your business, whether that’s over delivering for a client or going to a conference without any expectations of getting a client or something like that. And just the things that you’re told not to do sometimes. But yeah, I mean, my business started out initially doing copywriting for clients, a lot of web copy and some email sequences.

And then, like I was saying earlier with really tying in the research side and the user experience side, it’s evolved. I think one example of kind of doing something different is I’ve worked with clients for a long time. My client average is 28 months. Once I kind of get in with them, I’m always kind of not selling the next project to make money but it’s usually when I see once you kind of get the lay of the land and you pull the curtain back and you see so many different opportunities, if the client is good, it doesn’t exhibit red flags and all these things, then I just continue to work with them over a longer period of time. That’s been a lot of fun for me because I’m huge on relationships.

It’s just been a little bit of a different approach in the age of onboarding, offboarding productized services. Those are great 100%, but I think for me just being able to, and whether it’s a retainer client or whether it’s kind of multiple projects, kind of back-to-back, I mean, obviously making sure the scope is really narrow or defined rather. But yeah, I mean that’s kind of been one thing is just really I’ll work with a client and then have them for a couple of years. That saves me a lot of time on the backend of not having to prospect as much. I still prospect, that’s one thing I learned the hard way is when you think you have a full client load or even if you have a list and you take the foot off the gas for prospecting or building your pipeline. And then if circumstances change, you’re kind of caught there with your tail between your legs because you haven’t been engaging and networking and building up your pipeline. But again, a lesson learned.

And then right now, I mean, it’s evolved. So I’ve done a lot of customer journey mapping and a lot of just strategy work. So marketing strategy, user experience strategy, largely around the website, and then funnels as well. So kind of connecting the dots. And again, finding opportunities to delight at each phase of the funnel. So right now, I mean, focusing a lot on customer journeys and using something like ActiveCampaign to tie it all together. And customer journey could be your sales process, could be your onboarding, could be your upsell to your existing clients, whatever it is. But kind of looking at everything in a journey perspective and eliminating all the buzzwords of like marketing automation and personalization and segmentation and all this gobbledygook.

Kira:  I have so many questions for you. If your average time working with a client is 28 months, that’s so impressive. I mean, I feel like I’m happy if it’s six months. I feel like that’s huge. If I want to start working with clients for 28 months on average, what are some steps I can take? Maybe it’s just a mindset shift or maybe it’s actually something more practical than that so I can start to extend these relationships and provide value over a longer period of time.

Jared:  The number one thing at least I’ve learned over the years and would say is owning the consultant or the strategist relationship early. So owning it in the sales process. And if you didn’t do it in the sales process for that first project, or project as some Canadians like to say, I would make sure while you’re working on the engagement to basically enlightened them on things that they hadn’t noticed before and almost be assuming that they’re going to hire you for the next project. So you’re in the middle. Say if you did an audit or a product test service at start, and then you did maybe a two to three month kind of bridge deal where it’s kind of, okay, we’ve worked on A project, let’s see what monthly is like. And we either get a really big win in that 90 days or we go our separate ways afterwards.

And I like that as a little bit of a litmus test because yes, having a client for a long period of time is great for you, but also you want to make sure that the client is worth it. You want to make sure that the client is, again, not showing those red flags and respecting your time and, again, whatever your boundaries are. But yeah, I would say that’s kind of the first thing is really owning that strategist role and making sure to share with them things that they weren’t really aware of and owning that and kind of just saying, okay, after this, we can, and almost pre-selling. Well, not almost, yes, pre-selling the next project and priming them for the next project.

So say you were doing a three month gig, maybe in the middle of month two or near the end of month two, you’re already putting out feelers for that next project. And if there’s any objections, you overcome those in your weekly meetings already. And you have that signature on that SOW before you’re done that first project, which takes a bit of extra time, but yeah.

Rob:  Let’s talk about that process a little bit because you’ve mentioned a few things like the weekly meetings, owning the consultant role or whatever. I’m thinking like, how can we make this totally actionable for somebody who may be just starting out or maybe they’ve been doing this for a couple of years but they’ve never been able to put together something like this. What exactly does that look like in order… I’ve been hired to write a website, I write the website, how do I start pre-selling the next thing or how do I start acting as a consultant when I’ve been asked to only write copy? What does that look like?

Jared:  Well, starting in your sales process first off. And again, if that’s ideal, and again, essentially for me it comes back to running the show and running the show as an expert. Clients want to depend on you, you know what you’re doing, you’ve done this before. They will know and they can tell if you’re owning the process and saying, okay, here’s what I need from you next, et cetera, et cetera, and you just kind of line up the pieces. They’re going to feel like, oh, this is so great. Yeah, okay, great. I will see this, I will submit this for you, et cetera, et cetera. If you can’t do it in the sales process, I think really when you are already underway, trying to find another win that they weren’t already aware of.

So, I kind of build in a bit of scope time for over-delivering or to find a bit of a surprise where sure… So Rob, in your example, if they hired you to write web copy, okay, well maybe you are learning something else on the side or maybe you notice that there’s an issue with their marketing software or their headline on their website, whatever it is you, and it’s not part of your scope. And then that kind of is the big for me a bit of an X factor where they say, “Hey, we hire…” Because every client I’ve worked with, that’s how it starts. It’s literally been, “We hired you for X. Oh, I didn’t know about Y or I didn’t know you could do this.” And then that kind of opens the door to say, “Okay, yeah, I can. We’re used to working together. We’ve vetted each other. We like each other. Shall we chat?”

Kira:  So that type of pre-selling, you might bring it up when you’re a month into a project and it might be on like a weekly check-in call where you surprise and delight them. Or what’s the timing and what’s the best approach?

Jared:  I mean, sometimes you won’t have weekly calls. Sometimes, I mean, a weekly call is nice, but whenever there’s a check-in with the client to kind of maybe review some copy or to hop on a call, getting them on a call, you’re able to ask kind of some probing questions and put out some feelers for whether or not they’re going to be interested in what you’re mentioning or if they’re resistant to it. And that’s really where for me the switch flips is when they view you as a peer, when they view you as a partner, as opposed to a gun for hire wanting, here, do this for us kind of thing. When you kind of bring something new to the table and say, “Hey, have you thought about doing this before? If not, why not?”

Kira:  Do you have any other examples of probing questions?

Jared:  Oh my gosh. So many. Yeah, I have geeked out on this a lot. But really, I mean, we are copywriters, we do voice a customer research, we have sales calls and really anything that starts with a what and a how. But one of my favorite ones is can you give me an example of that? And that is just such an awesome probing question because the client may… I mean, you hear all this stuff about mirroring and pausing, because silence can be a great probe as well. So I do that a lot on voice a customer interviews where if a client starts talking about something and I’m not really satisfied with the answer, or I think there’s more there, I just kind of stop.

And especially being over here in North America, people like to fill the silence because they feel really awkward. Whereas somewhere in like Japan, for example, silence is more common and they view it as a sign of respect to really think about their answer. So you can have three, four minutes of just silence and it would be pretty awkward if you weren’t used to it. But over here, it’s not a problem. So one of my favorite probing questions is, “Oh, that’s great. Can you give me an example of that? Or what would be an example, what would be a good example or a bad example?” There’s different modifiers you can put on there, but that really, it adds specificity in just the way we’re wired as humans is even in content, if you’re writing blog posts or videos, showing an example brings it to life as opposed to just talking about it and it being kind of theory.

Rob:  Let’s go deeper on the experience of this as well, because it’s not just like being a consultant, it’s not just asking them questions. Like you’re creating an experience for somebody, especially if they’re lasting two years, two plus years in a client relationship. What does that look like? How do you make that experience different from what a typical copywriter would provide?

Jared:  Yeah. I mean, I think there are so many ways you could do it. Well, I’m thinking from a copywriting perspective. I mean, there’s opportunities to repurpose voice a customer research that you’ve obtained. There’s additional test versions of copy you can include, maybe one extra one or an additional email or educate them on AB testing or how to read the data. Like there are so, so many. But I think one thing that’s been great is that, like I said, bringing something new to the table and mentioning something that they hadn’t really realized.

But another one is, I mean, we have so many networks and connections and there’s people that can really do great things that you can’t do. I have been that friend to my clients every single time and brought in trusted people either on my project, not subcontracting. Not that I have anything against subcontracting, but just I like to just kind of pass it all over and bring somebody in. That’s been big because clients sometimes won’t know where to start and they might not have the time. And if you say, “Hey, I know somebody that’s great for this, talk to them.”

Rob:  That seems like more of the consultant role as well where it’s not just all about you, but you’re bringing in resources, you’re bringing help, ideas, other things that help move not just the project forward, but you’re thinking about bigger issues to solve, bigger problems to solve.

Jared:  Yeah. I love what you said that about, it’s not just about you because that is really the crux of everything is taking a real interest, a genuine interest. I mean, yes, you’re being hired, yes, you’re being paid and you are going to do a great job. But I think really taking… I think if somebody were like, you can’t teach giving a crap, like you can’t. And somebody who was hired who wants to do the job to get money versus somebody who cares about the business and wants to see them succeed, I feel like, again, I don’t have statistically significant data on this, but I think it’s a night and day experience for the client if they can tell that somebody is just performing a task or a job to have money versus really caring about them and thinking about them and what would be best for them.

Kira:  Let’s talk a little bit more about delighting clients because that’s come up a lot. Like how do you delight clients? And I know you focus on that throughout the entire customer journey, but can we talk about the sales process just to go a little bit more narrow, because that’s also your specialty is like how to set that up, how to book the sales calls and how to conduct a great sales call. So if I feel like I’m average at the sales process, what are some changes I could make to delight a prospect more or to intrigue them so that I land the project?

Jared:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, so many. You know me, I’ve got one speed and I just keep talking and talking because I love this stuff and I love talking to both of you too. Yeah, I mean, from a sales process perspective, or process again for certain Canadians, there’s so much before the sales call that you can do and there’s really own that process tying back to what we were talking about before. But there’s also opportunities too with using video as well. And again, if you’re not open to having your face on video or having a video sales call, those are big things. And just I almost think of like a concierge kind of just having them taken care of. So sending a little right before the discovery call if they’ve shown and taken the actions you want them to take to show that they’re going to be worthy of hopping on a sales call.

And again, it’s not because you’re a celebrity and you want to treat them as a power play or anything, but they need to show you that they’re interested enough to hop on a sales call with you. So, there’s a lot of opportunities in even just simple things like sending a video kind of primer or a written primer of what to expect on the sales call. “Hey, Kira, we’ve got our call in 24 hours, really looking forward to it.” And again, before I kind of go deep on that, just something like a meeting reminder. There’s so much opportunity to make it so much better instead of it being the default Calendly with the meeting link and the time and that’s it, and you can tell it’s auto-generated.

But if you had something with a bit more personality, and we are copywriters, so this should be easy peasy, but something like a meeting reminder and saying, hey, we have our call in 24 hours. I can’t wait. Looking forward to, again, what you meant, and mention maybe a pain that they had on their intake form or something like that. And say, “Hey, here’s what to expect. We’re going to start right on time.” I would say, “We’re going to be on video. So make sure that you have your camera ready. If that’s going to be an issue, let me know.” Again, just what to expect so there’s no surprises. So if you show up on video and they’re not and they didn’t do their hair, like that is going to be unbelievable from a friction perspective. They’re just going to feel… And again, it’s kind of caring about them, wanting to take care of their comfort level and just really being kind of an advisor or a good friend.

I know some copywriters in our space already do this, but proposal review calls. Really thinking about when you work with bigger clients, there’s going to be multiple people that have signed off. So if you’re working with a small business or the business owner directly, they’re the only ones that have say. But if you have a bigger team, there’s no way to capture what was on that sales call to kind of sell you or evangelize you to the rest of their team. So something like a proposal screen-share video on Loom, whether you’re on camera or not, having that just for a couple of minutes and running through. They can send that to maybe their boss or their colleague who’s going to have a say in the buying decision and sticking with that.

And then I’ll stop after this one, but running through the terms and conditions on your contract. I know Abbey Woodcock in her Freelance Coop. She had a friend that was very big on conscious contracting. It was a lawyer in New York I believe. I can get the name, I’m drawing a blank on her name, but talking about conscious contracting and writing things in plain English, you’re not trying to do legal lease and pull the wool over somebody’s eyes. It’s more of like an integrity thing where you’re saying, “Hey, I’m covering this. I need to have this text in here to cover me and to cover you. Here’s how we’re going to resolve disputes,” and just really laying that out. And you could do again a screen-share of the terms and conditions and say, “Okay, I’ve had a couple of people ask questions about ABC. I just want to address those here as you’re reading through.” Just really not rocket science things, you’re kind of preempting objections or preempting concerns and addressing them before they can actually happen.

Kira:  Let’s break in here to talk a little bit about a few things Jared mentioned. Let’s start with empathy. He talked a lot about empathy. What stood out to you, Rob? You and I have talked about how important empathy is in marketing and business building, but what did Jared share that maybe sounded new or just stood out to you?

Rob:  Well, I think maybe the thing that stood out to me is that empathy is this thing that happens when we start to go through experiences like Jared with cancer or previous people who’ve been on the podcast have suffered things like depression or the loss of a child or all of these things that happen to our business, loss of jobs, hard clients, difficult clients. And the more experience we have, the more that we develop empathy. And empathy is really critical for connecting with the people that we’re writing to to help them understand that we really do understand the pain that they’re going through, we really do understand the problem they’re struggling with and the things going on in their lives.

And if we can’t capture that as copywriters, we sort of miss that first hurdle, which is to connect with the customer, the client so that they understand that, yep, they’re being heard and that whatever we’re going to say next is actually going to connect with them and solve the problem that they have. And so I think a lot of us sort of wish away these experiences, like Jared cancer, although he didn’t wish it away. He said there was a fantastic experience coming out on the end side of it. But I think it’s just important to realize that that’s where empathy is often built. I’m not sure that I’ve got a lot of good ideas of how to build empathy without going through the struggle ourselves. Maybe you have some thoughts around that.

Kira:  Well, I think part of it for me was just that Jared shared a really smart reminder that I’ve heard before but it’s always powerful to hear it again, just the reminder that we don’t know what anybody’s going through behind the scenes. And I think if we can remind ourselves of that, whether it’s in business with relationship development or in copywriting when you’re speaking to the audience or just walking around your neighborhood, not feeling frustrated by every person around you who may annoy you for whatever reason because just everybody’s dealing with their own stuff, their own baggage. And so I have to remind myself of that. I think I also feel like we have the privilege of talking to so many different copywriters in one-on-one calls or in small group calls where we get to hear a lot of the behind the scenes stuff of what’s going on in their lives.

You just realize too that everybody’s got something. And like Jared said, there’s no competition for struggles. So it doesn’t matter if it’s something little that’s happening that day or something huge that’s just really such a huge distraction and long-term. It’s we’re all dealing with it. So I think for me, it’s just more let me just remind myself of that every day. And then also it’s we can choose to share that. If we want to share what we’re going through, that’s our option just to share as we’re dealing with those little struggles and big struggles. Just to remind everybody like I’m going through stuff, you’re going through stuff, let’s share and talk through it.

Rob:  Yeah. And to have that experience, like really live the experience so that you know what that struggle feels like. I remember I think it was on our podcast with Marcella Allison, she was talking about an interview she had with one of her mentors and he was asking her, have you had this kind of medical condition or have you struggled with this other thing? She was a little taken back by it, but he was looking for somebody who has experienced some setbacks, some hardships in order to be able to write at that level. And so again, just as you’re going through hardships, whether it’s big or small or whatever, lean into it, feel it because you can use that experience then to connect with your customers, the people that you’re writing to later on.

Kira:  Yes. It’s okay to be more human in what we do. That’s a good thing. Also what stood out to me is what Jared shared about doing the things in business that won’t typically scale. I know this is what Jared has built so much of his consulting business around, and he has been so successful because he over-delivers, because he’s problem-solving and showing up in service of his clients in such a big way and doing those things, again, that won’t necessarily scale. I love that advice because I do think it’s okay to want to grow your business and it’s okay to want to scale your business. There’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, you and I want to do that. You can still want that but also realize that those little things you can do really make a difference and there are ways, even if you’re building a larger platform, that you can still keep it intimate. Even if sometimes it’s harder or it takes more time, there are ways to do it. You don’t have to trade that in just because you want to grow a larger business.

Rob:  Yeah. Oftentimes I think those things that don’t scale are the things, especially when we’re just trying them out, we’re trying to figure out what are the kinds of things that we can do to connect with our clients, whatever, but those things that don’t scale are the things that end up creating the experience that is unique to you. If it’s you’re reaching out to clients midway through a project or you’re sending them gifts or you’re doing something else to connect with them, maybe you’ve got some kind of a client portal. These things that are a little bit harder to scale in the way that you’re serving your clients, that’s where you start to discover those things.

It’s like, oh, that’s a little bit of magic. And then if you can figure out a way to incorporate it into your processes and then scale it in some way, maybe it’s not exactly the way that you’re doing it one-on-one, but that’s really where you start to create that experience of working with you that is really different and that clients can appreciate. And obviously Jared has locked in on that from his early beginnings in experiential marketing to what he does with his clients today, actually creating an experience from tools and process and just the one-on-one connection that he has with them really sets him apart and is something that I think a lot more of us should be emulating.

Kira:  Yeah. And we’ve done it through the Copywriter Club through our one-on-one calls, which you and I have talked about in some of the groups that we run. Like it’s hosting, running one-on-one calls with other copywriters is not scalable because you only have so much time in your day, but it’s also something that can make a huge impact and can build strong relationships and has been really important, I think, to what we’ve built in the Copywriter Club to build a really strong foundation and a community of relationships that we’ve invested heavily in because we’ve spent time with those copywriters who have become friends. So it’s, again, something that’s not scalable and a lot of people will tell you don’t do one-on-one calls, don’t spend your time doing that. But it’s something I think has worked really well for us because it’s so intimate and so personal and goes a long way.

Rob:  Yeah. That’s where you have the impact. And I think doing the same thing, even if you’re not working with other clients or people in a consulting role or in a coaching role, you can still do that working with your clients one-on-one. Check-in calls, you’re making that same connection. You’re still able to advise them on what’s going on with your process, sharing marketing ideas, sharing new things that they might want to try out. Again, going back to some of those things that makes Jared so good at connecting with his clients. Same principle, just a different way to apply it.

Kira:  Right. Your client will never hire you for a copywriting or marketing project and say no to a call with you where you’re going to show up and share ideas about how to grow their business or give them feedback on their business. They want that. They’re hungry for that. We have to be careful with how much time we give them, but that’s where we can over-deliver, that’s where we can do those things that don’t necessarily scale but build really great client relationships.

Rob:  Yeah, exactly.

Kira:  And maybe that’s how Jared has grown into his 28 month long-term relationships with his clients, which we must repeat, again, is amazing. I respect that so much. And so, again, what stood out to me talking to Jared is just how he does pre-sell his existing clients. And he does it through what you already shared, having those weekly check-in calls. Adding more time into his timelines for projects so that he can figure out ways to over-deliver and surprise them and delight them with extra deliverables and showing up as a problem solver so that he can solve larger problems and introduce new ideas to his clients so that he can sell them on the next project. I think it’s brilliant, and we’ve seen him do it firsthand. So if Jared can do it,