TCC Podcast #233: Finding Your Copywriting Lane with Mariah Phillips

 

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

 

Full Transcript:

Kira: Time and time again, guests on our podcast have told us they started copywriting without actually knowing that what they were doing was writing copy. They were just figuring out how to market a product or service and copy was a natural part of the process. That’s also true of today’s guests for the 233rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Mariah Phillips. Mariah jumped from PR to fundraising to SEO before figuring out that the thing she did best in all of those roles was copywriting. 

Rob: Before we share our interview with Mariah, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. The Think Tank is a private mastermind group for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new revenue streams in their business, receive one on two coaching from the two of us and ultimately grow their businesses to six figures or more. If you’ve been looking for a mastermind to help you grow, email us at [email protected] to set up an interview or go to copywriterthinktank.com. 

Kira: Now let’s jump into our conversation with Mariah. 

Mariah: Somehow I’ve always been a copywriter and didn’t know it. So as I worked… I started in corporate America, I worked in a boutique PR firm in then New York Metro area. And so while there, we had to do a lot of brand story development for clients. Some of our clients were global and longstanding brands, and since some of them were brand new and sold quirky things like monocles, like this was their first time ever stepping out. And so my responsibility was to write their brand story, write copy, and even write pitches which isn’t necessarily copy, but pitches to the media are making a sale. So, I did that and then I transitioned to working for an ed tech company called 2U, Inc. And in the process there, I started off as a placement specialist for a clinical social work program. And if you don’t know anything about 2U, Inc basically they power the biggest universities in the country, they power their online master’s programs. 

My goal there was to get into their digital marketing department, but at the time when I was moving from the New York regions back to Maryland, they didn’t have any openings in that department, so I said, you know what, I’ll start off with student placement and help these master’s level social work students get their internships. And that was cool because in order to do that, the students had to take their social work program online, but they had to take their clinical programs in their hometown. And so I had to find clinical social work placements for students, working adults and places like Waukesha, Wisconsin. Places where there’s like one person in a whole town.

And I worked throughout different regions in the U.S. to do that, and that relates to copy because it was there that I realized that the team there who was pitching these different clinical social work partnerships and like agreements with health systems to get our schools in partnership with these health systems to make the clinical internship finding process easier, the pitches were very hard for people to understand. They just didn’t have anyone who was like a wordsmith on the team pitching these opportunities to the major health systems and placement sites. And so when I joined, because I had come from the public relations background, I was just like, “Hey, these are some things that we need to say in the subject line to get people to open. You guys are asking people way too much, way too soon, and you’re scaring them off with these emails.” 

And so I was able to, along with my team, of course, come up with copy for like, I guess you can kind of call it a sales funnel for how we acquired more national partnerships and legal agreements with these different healthcare systems across the country. And so when they started asking me like specifically to write emails for those sorts of things, I was like, okay, cool. I guess writing emails is a thing, but I still didn’t know that it was called copy and I still didn’t know that it was so valuable. And then I transitioned, I ended up applying for a role in their digital… On the marketing floor, so it was like a 12 storey building and everybody was like on the 11th floor is marketing. And if you reach… Nobody ever gets to marketing, so good luck you can apply, but we don’t think you’ll get it. 

And I’m always the type of person who’s like, well, you got to try. So, we had a few case studies that you had to do to get a role as a digital marketing specialist for their inbound marketing team. And I did the case studies, they picked me and the rest is history as far as how I got into search engine optimization and how [inaudible 00:05:26] later how that relates to how I write copy now, because a lot of people are like SEO and copy don’t go together. And I totally agree, but the two worlds can merge at some point. So anyway, there I also had to start writing different sales type copy, and also we would have a lot of guest posts on a lot of website for those who are familiar with inbound marketing. And so in order to do those things, we would have to write different advertising copy and come up with like blog posts briefs which are a lot like copy briefs when you’re working with freelance. I had to partner with freelance writers to help us write the amount of blog posts we did. And so it’s kind of like writing copy briefs, and we can go into that later if you find it helpful to do so. 

But I eventually ended up getting a job with Catholic Relief Services and they are one of the top global nonprofits in the world. And so I was on their digital fundraising team. It was just me and my manager fundraising millions of dollars a month. And I had to write the email copy for about 10 campaigns or more a year, as well as like product descriptions for what the website copy for donation forms and things like that, to get people to take action, to donate money without having something in return other than the satisfaction that they were making the world a better place. But again, nobody called the copy and it wasn’t until I left that job… I did the thing that I would never recommend anyone do, leave your job thinking that you have it all together, but you don’t really have a very well put together plan. I wanted more freedom to work with people like populations and help people who I knew needed my help outside of the guidelines of working for any sort of agency. And so I didn’t really know how to do that. So I did the only thing I did know how to do was throw events. I didn’t know how to do outside of traditionally working in the marketing field, I threw an event in Baltimore where we hosted Baltimoreans who just wanted to come and hang out and have a good place to hang and chill. 

And through that event, I had to do like a lot of like off the ground and grassroots promotion. It was a live event called Sunday Dinner Baltimore it’s still on Instagram and it will happen again at some point. But COVID happened, like I had the first event, it was successful, people loved it. People were like, “When are you releasing the next tickets for this cool event where we get to do trivia and eat good food and meet new people?” And I was like, “I don’t know, because COVID is here now.” And so that kind of like crushed my dream of having this wonderful community-centered event concept in Baltimore. So I had to pivot to doing something online to make money as I was no longer with my former employer and I was like, “I do know how to fundraise.” 

So I started putting out information a lot about my fundraising experience on LinkedIn and sharing different stories. And nothing about my story in the beginning ever matches so here we go. And Anti-nuclear Proliferation Think Tank in D.C. that focuses on women’s education was like, “We need a fundraiser, can you come and help?” And they were like, “We’ll pay you 2K to write four emails to help us fundraise for a particular campaign.” And I was like, “Cool, I need the money.” And so after that, I realized that was when I really got more familiar that copy was a thing. And I realized that people were willing to pay you a substantial amount if you could help them make sales and get donations. And so that’s when I started, I literally got on my podcast app on my phone and looked up podcasts about copy and The Copywriter Club popped up. And so that’s literally how I got started in copywriting. 

Rob: Wow. Okay. So I’ve got about 20 questions, maybe more about all of that before we talk about fundraising or SEO or the event stuff that you did. I’d love to go back to that first job where you were the marketing specialist and basically doing copy as part of your job in-house, like what was the process in-house of working with the other members on that team? And the reason I’m asking is because we don’t talk to a lot of in-house copywriters, you know most people we talk to are out freelancing doing their own thing now. But I’m curious that first job how did work arrive on your desk? What was the work that you were doing? How did you pass it off and the approval, the mentoring that you were getting just a few details there? 

Mariah: If we’re talking about the agency I got there they were like, Hey, we work with tele brands and we work with like all of these different kind of like Shark Tank-type of businesses who were finding people with really cool inventions. Making deals with them and taking it from there. And they were like, “Read through some of the campaigns we’ve had in the past, like stalk the client’s website.” YouTube was hot at that time. It wasn’t like the… It was pretty hot, but it wasn’t what it is today. So I would watch a lot of YouTube videos and that was really how I learned how to get immersed myself in the culture of whatever brand I needed to write for or represent. And so after that, they gave me like some sample, they were like, “Pretend like you are pitching to whatever company.” And they gave me some… My higher-ups would give me some pitches that they had written their score quality placements or PR packages that they had put together for major brands that we represented. And I would basically, they literally… They didn’t do the sort of thing where they gave me a fake brand. They were like, “We have a new client coming on. And so we want you to write a PR package and pitches for them. Don’t worry it’s not like we’re going to send these out, but we just want you to start writing and like jump right in.”

I wasn’t afraid because I was used to jumping right into things my whole life. So I was like, “Hey, they either like it or they don’t. But at the end of the day, I’m already on the team so here we go.” And they loved the pitches so much and liked the copy so much that the CEO… We had weekly meetings in the morning each week just to like talk about our successes, our failures, what we would do differently. And he literally pulled up my very first like go at writing pitches and press releases and stuff. And he pulled it up on a big screen and was like, “This is what everybody should be going for.” And so I was like, “Oh, I guess I did it right.” And from then on, we just had… You would get like your client bucket kind of. So like some of us were responsible… For me I’ll say what I was responsible for, I had a lot of the direct response clients. We represented Wolfgang Puck like his pressure oven, just a bunch of like very unconventional stuff like PedEgg and like those by now type of pants. 

And so that was like my wheel house along with different like innovative fashion brands that were closely related. They weren’t related because they were like the same type of product, but they were innovative, quirky products that you really had to work hard to sell to the media. And so they bucketed us into like those groups and we would literally spend time brainstorming the different audiences that we could pitch or get these products into. And that was interesting because I had a lot of PR internships before I got into that space, but it wasn’t until you have that pressure of being like you have to get this client payments because they’re paying way too much for you not to. And you also don’t want to be fired. You start getting really creative about the types of audiences that you can imagine for the type of products. 

And so, like most people might not, if you have a shoe, a comfortable shoe for walking throughout New York, but doesn’t look like a sneaker. Most people might not think to pitch it to a travel agency, or they might not think to pitch it to mommy blogs were really popular at the time. So we might have an angle about you come from work and you need to take your kid directly to the playground, you can stuff this in your purse and have it on the go. That’s a really like basic level example, but it was just there. We really focused a lot on helping our brands reach new audiences. 

So in both of those jobs that was very interesting. And then I’ll just make one more point about how that also transferred into the digital marketing space at 2U, I was representing brands like American, UC Berkeley, a bunch of big brands who needed to up their admissions. And so they would have programs like Syracuse Masters of Business program and of course you don’t just want to target business blogs, so we would maybe we had a blog post about marijuana legalization that’s a big one that I worked on. And the tax implications for each state or for a particular state should recreational marijuana be legalized. And so you don’t just want to go for, I learned that you don’t just want to go for the business publications. 

But you also want to go for publications that are like closely related to this topic or people who might be interested in the medical side of it or different, I don’t know, marijuana daily sort of publications, or talk about it from a I’m a mom. And here’s how moms are usually criticized for delving into this very like traditionally sketchy space. And so there were just so many… I just learned how to see beyond what was being sold and figure out how to get that type of content. And sell these concepts to different types of people who may not have even been thinking they needed such a product or such information. 

Kira: You talk more about that, especially in relation to copywriting and how copywriters could use some of these same processes, like almost the creative process that you went through to see beyond what the product could do and to see it in new ways and then pitch it to new audiences. Was there a creative process that you worked through every time you did that? Or just a couple of lessons that we could take away as copywriters and use with our own clients in our own office? 

Mariah: Yeah. So I would… Something that I did often was research what was already out there about the topic. Research online, via Google, what people were already talking about and Advanced Google Search was really helpful too, because let’s say we were talking about a new dog whistle or something like that. That’s usually like the easiest example for explaining stuff so I say, we’re talking about a new dog whistle. I would go on Google and do an Advanced Search and do, I think this is important to remember too, like when you’re thinking of your creative process before you even get to that part, try and see what geographical areas are already very familiar with whatever topic you’re talking about or are big fans of whatever niche you’re in or whatever you’re talking about. So like for example a lot of people like dogs, but like what sort of area usually has… You could think what sort of area usually needs to walk their dog, has the most trouble doing so, why they have that trouble and why this dog whistle that coms dogs based off of science-proven sound waves will help them. 

And so if you think that way you can start doing Google searches, so it can be like dog whistle, you can do all in text, you know dog whistles, or ask questions back to Google, how do dog whistles work? Then you can go to the news tab and you can see all the different articles that were ever written about dog whistles. You can just do a regular Google Search about dog whistles and then you can also do Advance Google Searches, and then you might come upon something like, Oh my God, people, there’s always something about dog whistles or a dog supplies and products in the New York city region. 

Well, okay, cool. Apparently that this is a hot topic, unconventional dog items and New York city. And then you get curious about, well, how come? And then you might start to find out, I think you should use logic in New York is a highly populated place, there’s a lot of concrete and dogs like to poop. So usually people in New York needs solutions for doing things with their dogs that don’t violate dog owner rules. And so then you can start to do even more Google searches about different blog posts and stuff that you’ll find about dog owners in the New York region, and just go into a rabbit hole just like we do on social media when we find something that we like, and we go into a rabbit hole about it. 

The creative process for that type of thinking requires you to dedicate yourself to a rabbit hole and just to go down as many different types of rabbit holes as you possibly can. And when you find that thing that piques your interest and holds your attention to that you think is really cool that maybe a specific angle that a certain writer or reporter has taken, or maybe you’ve gone down a rabbit hole and you’ve ended up on a Twitter account for dog lovers and people, somebody, and the audience on that Twitter account has gotten into a really interesting conversation about something you didn’t even think about. So nowadays people might be in conversations about, Oh, my God, my dog is always barking during my Zoom meetings and it’s so effing annoying. 

So if you’re someone who is selling a dog whistle that coms dogs you’re like, “Okay, cool. Well maybe I can pitch this dog, if you are COVID happened more of us are working from home, we have a dog whistle that coms dogs based off of science-backed sound waves. Let me find out the type of publications that this audience gravitates towards, let me search on Twitter and find out if there are any people, anybody who has a pet beat or work from home beat or something like that.” And now you have this whole angle that you can just start writing pitches for to convince people to write about it. But if we’re talking from a copy perspective, now you have this angle that you can take and use it as the angle that you’re going to sell to a specific audience. 

Rob: Awesome. So I want to change the subject just a little bit and ask you about fundraising. We talked to copywriters every once in a while, who want to write in the fundraising space. Oftentimes they’re worried that there’s not enough money in it, or they don’t know exactly the differences between copy for fundraising versus other kinds of response-oriented copy. Will you talk a little bit about your experience there? What is it that makes you so effective as a fundraiser? 

Mariah: Writing for fundraising it’s really important to not to assume that people know what you do, why you do it and why they should help. A lot of times we can look at people and we, as the copywriter can say, “Oh, my God, this audience is perfect because X, Y, Z.” And like in our heads, we have all of these… We put all of these expectations on to this audience who has no clue who we are, about what they should believe and what they should think and what they’re capable of, but they don’t know that they’re capable of it yet. And so when writing for fundraising, it’s really good just like when you’re writing for sales copy to present the problem, because most people are caught up in their daily lives and they might not know that there is a water problem in Bangladesh or a food justice problem in Chicago. 

So present the problem when it comes to fundraising, it’s really important to educate people really quickly before you ask them for anything. So, hey, let people know that there’s a problem connected to somehow to what they already do, what they are already aware of, and then educate them on why there’s a problem, why the problem should matter to them. Like you have to connect it to, hey, yeah, this is a problem we’re not just asking you to help because we want money. We’re asking you to help because if you don’t, your life will be effected in some sort of way that you don’t want. And that can take some time to find out what your audience doesn’t want to happen in their lives, but with research and by being a good listener and asking the right questions you can find out and then once you present the problem, educate your audience you can then spiral into what your company organization does, and be very specific towards the end on how they can help. 

And not just that, but just like if you’re writing a sales page after you show them how they can help, make sure you’re letting them know exactly what their money will do after they donate. That’s the really important part that a lot of people forget is not just saying, hey, there’s a problem. This is the problem, this is how it’ll affect you give, but once you give these are all the things that you were making possible. And once you let them know all the things that they are making possible with their gift or with their donation, and hopefully have some proof of what your organization has done in that sector before then always end the fundraising ask with that clear call to action, donate now, chip in or anything like that. 

Kira: This is kind of in the weeds but if a copywriter wants to focus on the fundraising space what would you recommend? How should they approach client work? Do you think it’s better to work with one or two clients on retainer in that space, or to create like one-off packages and kind of shop them around to a bunch of different organizations and non-profits?  What’s the best approach in that space to getting client work? 

Mariah: Yeah, so for the fundraising space I would say that it’s better to work on retainer because fundraising is much… So when it comes to sales versus marketing I always like to think of marketing in groups and then like sales is a one-on-one experience. And so when it comes to fundraising, if we’re talking about getting your clientele, your clientele is really thinking about how you can help them get a group of people and keep growing that group of people to join in with their mission, to believe in their mission and to donate. And any client, honestly that’s worth working with understands that you can’t do that overnight. And so in order to position yourself as a qualified copywriter and fundraiser the fastest way to do that is to say, “Hey, I want to work on retainer… I offer packages on retainer or let’s talk about how we can work my services into the process that you’ve already got going on or your end.”

Because you have to think that you need time to learn their audience. You need time to learn what that client is already doing well and what they’re not doing well. You need time to learn the chinks in their strategy’s armor. And if you try to hop in without having that retainer type relationship, where you’ve already worked in, like where you guys have already talked about the fact that this is going to take time to build momentum, if you don’t do that, then you’re promising them something that could quickly disappoint them and disappoint yourself because you haven’t been realistic about the type of effort that it takes to build a raving audience who’s going to give you money for something that is not tangible. Did that help? 

Rob: Yeah, it definitely helps. So when you have had that kind of a relationship, what has your retainer look like? What are the deliverables and can I even ask, how much did you charge for what you were providing? 

Mariah: Yeah, so for me, it really depends on the agency. I have a soft spot for helping up and coming agencies who really don’t have the money to pay the 15K or the 5k a month. 5k is what I’ll usually charge a medium-sized agency for my services, but for a small business or like a small organization who really doesn’t have the money I really asked them like, “Okay, well, so what type of funding do you already have?” A lot of times small agencies get funding from different sources, maybe the state, or like a private major gift giver. So I ask them to be transparent about what they currently have going on, and we work out a rate that makes sense for them to keep running their regular operations, but also for me to work with them and give them the type of effort and attention that it requires. 

So it’s a multifaceted thing, because as someone who’s running your own business, you really have to think, yes, I want the… If you’re thinking from working with of newly formed organization that has funding, but they’re not necessarily like a billion dollar organization, you really have to think first about yourself. And I say that because it’s yes, you want to be able to help this organization get where they want to be. But if you’re putting so much time into that project or like that client that you don’t have room to grow your business, because you’re not charging them enough to sustain yourself, then you’ve just worked your way into a hole where you’re going to give up anyway, because you’re going to get hungry and need to pay your bills. 

So it’s really important just to find out what I like to do is I’ll see they’ll let me know their budget and I’ll try to work out something where they kind of like you guys have a guy on the podcast not too long ago, who was saying that clients will pay like the first month and then like half of the last month upfront. And so, I will do that depending on the rate, the rate really varies and we’ll just go based off of that. But I can say that for like medium to major agencies right now, I’m charging about 5K a month for consulting, for getting their strategy and development plan into place. And also for helping them pull together the different key players that they need in order to bring their content and copy and also execution together. 

So the process usually starts with an intake, then we develop a plan and then we get to the actual execution of the plan, which is usually a repetitive cycle because when it comes to fundraising or any sort of digital strategy there’s always some sort of campaign involved. There’s always some sort of special, unique initiative that’s unique to the agency. So, if this could be helpful to somebody who’s doing it for the first time, if you think of writing out your client’s plan in the form of campaigns as opposed to an ongoing strategy, it’s really helpful. Because you can even break it down like this, the first month that you guys work together, the campaign is creating awareness. 

The second month we work together, the campaign is keeping that awareness going and educating the audience. And then you can think of it the third campaign might actually be a campaign in the traditional sense where they’re fundraising for a specific thing. So sometimes it’s easier to think about digital marketing strategy and development in the form of like segmented campaigns in order to help you track how many hours you’re spending on a particular initiative. And that can help you eventually figure out your pricing. But I will say that it’s kind of like when you’re on an airplane and they first take off and it takes a little bit of time for the plane to like correct itself. So you just have to be open to not getting your pricing right from the very beginning. And knowing when you have to tell the client, hey, this is going to require more and so the cost is going to change. If you have a good client that you’ve been transparent with from the very beginning they’ll understand, and you guys will be able to work something out. And I think that’s really important to remember in general. 

Kira: So can we dive even deeper into that? So, you know, there are variables that you shared, but like let’s say roughly it’s 5k for that retainer client, what does that look like? I mean, you mentioned the campaigns and execution, but like what does that look like for you and the work that you’re doing each month on average, I’m sure it changes per client. But is that like a weekly call with the client? And then, you know, it’s about 10 hours a week of client work working on that campaign? Do you have a team helping you? What does that look like per client and how many clients do you ideally want to work with at a time? 

Mariah: Yeah, so when it comes to fundraising and digital marketing strategy, I usually try to work with… I work with about seven clients right now. And that’s possible because they’re clients who have different needs and are at different levels. So for a client who doesn’t really have a big budget, but I identify with what their mission is. I’ll set up monthly calls with them or biweekly calls. And that’s because usually you’ll find that newer startup, not startups startup is the wrong word, I don’t want to be misleading, but newer organizations still have a lot to figure out for themselves. And so biweekly, and monthly calls allow you to pack information into a 60 minute call. I usually do 60 minute calls or 90 minutes depending on the client, but I will just say 60 minutes because that’s usually the most people can handle before they get overwhelmed. 

If they’re a new organization, we’ll talk about different things pertaining to their strategy currently. And I’ll give suggestions on how they can pivot the different key performance indicators they need to keep track of, the different tools that we need. And I like to space it out biweekly and monthly because it allows them time to actually implement what we’ve talked about and to come back to me with results or questions as they’ve navigated this new space. As opposed to when I work with clients who are more established and have the bigger budgets they get what I’m talking about, they usually have people who can do it and a weekly call is great, because they’re moving more rapidly than the smaller organizations. And you also want to make sure you’re letting the client know that you’re not just paying me 5K so that I can kick my feet up and wait until you need me. You don’t want to be annoying, but you want to be in the client’s face. 

So you want to let them know I’m here. You’re on my mind. Great way to provide value for clients in between those monthly, biweekly or weekly calls in a consultant role is to always stay abreast of whatever niche or industry you’re in, what’s going on, what competitors are doing, what new… How tools could help them. And some of them surprised emails like stuff they didn’t ask for. A lot of times when people are consultant, they’ll wait for the call and there’ll be like radio silence between the first call and the next one. 

But what I like to do is if I find out something that could help them, or if I know of an event or a workshop or just a small insight that I believe will be helpful to them, I’ll send them a quick email and let them know just so that they know I’m not just thinking about them 30 minutes before I hop on the call. I’m thinking about them all the time. And it also helps me to stay abreast of how my client is feeling and also if the going gets rough and they need to make budget cuts, we already have a more personable relationship than they probably do with a lot of the other vendors. So, just making sure you’re being a human being with your clients and staying in their face, so that you can make sure you’re always going to get over-delivering, give them more value than what they’re actually paying for, to be quite honest. 

Rob: Let’s break in here to talk a bit more about a couple of things that Mariah’s been sharing. So obviously Mariah got her start working inside a couple of big organizations, and while our podcast is often focused on freelancers, I just want to note here that working in-house can be a great way to start a career, to learn the ropes, to get feedback on your work and to build a network of contacts that you can then use when you’re ready to launch your own career, your own business as a freelancer. 

So just worth noting, Mariah is not alone here. We’ve actually interviewed a lot of people that have done this as well. It’s something that I did before I started my career, and it can be a really good path for starting out your freelance career. So what stood out to you, Kira? 

Kira: Definitely the event space and how Mariah was really focused on starting this event company before COVID hit and how she had this great business plan and that was in the works and then all of a sudden she couldn’t do it. So I think it’s a note about the power of events, but also how quickly she was able to pivot too, which is quite amazing because she’s doing really well in her business. Clearly she has a lot of experience in the non-profit space with fundraising and agency work and PR. But I guess I’m just surprised and amazed that like she was able to jump in, in COVID times and launch her business and do so well so quickly. And I know other copywriters out there have done the same where they just had to figure it out so fast. And I’m just always impressed when copywriting businesses and these agencies take off once COVID hit. 

Rob: Yeah and you’re speaking of events, obviously we’ve talked with a few people who have used events to grow their business. I mean, going the way back to our first interview with Brian Kurtz when he was talking about boardroom dinners and even for introverts like you and I, there’s something special still about getting together in small groups, you know, around a table, having food, or even just hanging out that really intensifies that connection, that one-on-one connection. And so while you may be thinking, I’m not going to put on my own events or big events or places where I get lost, there are ways to make events work for connecting for people. And one of the best ways is to actually start your own events, whether that’s a six person dinner or something even bigger like what we do at TCCIRL. 

Kira: Yeah. And I know we were interested in doing more events before the pandemic hit and we wanted to travel, you and I wanted to travel all around the world and have smaller events for the members of our underground. Of course, it didn’t happen, but we’re excited to pick that up once we can travel again. And I know for me in D.C. I would love to start holding events, smaller events, maybe dinner parties who knows for different copywriters and marketers in D.C. Is just a way of getting to know people and potentially making some business connections too. I love using in-person events as a way to grow business, but also just to make friends and make more connections. 

Rob: Yeah. Another thing that jumped out at me just was the help and the instruction that Mariah was giving, talking about how to write for non-profits. And, you know it really strikes me, this is we can use a lot of the principles of direct response to help our clients in the non-profit sector, but because there’s no real product here, you really have to think about the benefit that you’re selling to the person who’s making a donation or who’s giving their time or sacrificing something. You’ve got to connect that to a very deeply held belief or need or something, it’s less about a transformation, although maybe there’s a big transformation if you solve the problem that you’re working on, but being really cognizant of tying that benefit back to something that your client believes or feels, I think is an important part of writing in that space. So it’s just kind of an interesting note that I started to write down because I’d love to write for a nonprofit.

Kira: Me too, Rob. This is what we could do with our new agency. We could write in the non-profit space, I felt energized after speaking to Mariah about writing in the fundraising space and with non-profits. I’ve worked for a handful of non-profits and I think, although it was a good experience I also was turned off a little bit just because non-profits are hard and they don’t have a lot of resources frequently. And so it was really positive to hear from Mariah about her work and how we really can apply these skills that we have as more of a consultant and maybe not working in the non-profit, but serving them at a higher level with strategy. And so I love that we went deep with her on that work because I think it might motivate more copywriters to look at that space, especially ones who are wondering how they could have more impact and maybe feeling frustrated that they’re not doing more for the causes that they care about. This is a great way to step into that space. 

And she’s getting paid well, she mentioned 5k per retainer or up typically I know she said sometimes she offers discounted rates or lower rates for newer organizations, but that’s a solid retainer pay for a lot of copywriters. And so I think there’s a lot of opportunity in the non-profit space and I’m glad the two of us are interested now we can do it. 

Rob: Yeah. When you said that we should write for a non-profit in our agency, I was thinking that you were saying that our agency is going to not make profits. That’s not the same kind of non-profit I was thinking of. 

Kira: Let’s make an agency that is a non-profit model. That’s a great idea. 

Rob: It can be fun. So Mariah mentioned a guy when she was talking about retainers and collecting the first and the last months’ payments in a retainer. She mentioned a guy who talked about that on the podcast, I just should note that was Brian Speronello and that was episode 211, if anybody wants to go back and listen to that. 

Kira: Yes. Okay. And I just loved hearing Mariah’s creative process. She’s clearly a creative and she is a researcher and curious, and she knows how to go down the rabbit hole. And so it was just fun to hear her talk through her thought process for how she comes up with new hooks, new ideas, how she thinks about new audiences for her brands and her products. And so it was just a really great reminder that even though sometimes we say the rabbit hole is a bad thing and you don’t want to go down the rabbit hole and there’s so many distractions, there’s actually a purpose. And sometimes it’s helpful to go down the rabbit hole when you’re thinking about new hooks and new offers and doing the research. And so listening to Mariah I was like, “Oh, this is a great excuse for me to go down the rabbit hole more frequently to get new creative ideas and solutions.” 

Rob: Yeah. Listening to Mariah talk about that reminded me of what we were talking about last week with Marcus and the research that he does, the search for empathy, the search for the things that are going to connect you with the audience and how you convince them and it is definitely a rabbit hole worth going down. 

Kira: Yeah. And she goes deep and that’s why she’s doing really well with her agency and thinking more strategically and not just thinking as a copywriter, she’s looking for new angles, new solutions. And so I think that’s what you need to do if you want to step into more of that consultant role. 

Rob: Right. 

Kira: All right. Well, let’s go back to our interview with Mariah and hear a bit about what she’s doing to rebrand her business today. 

Rob: So before we started the call, Mariah, you were telling us a little bit about how you are going through a branding process and separating your personal brand from the business side of your business. Would you mind talking a little bit about that process? Like why are you doing that and what do you expect the outcome to be?

Mariah: Yeah. So the process has been interesting because it really came about because I started off only offering copywriting services once I found out that that you could get paid so much for doing copy. And I love writing, I’ve always loved writing. And so I started off with copywriting and then I realized that a lot of the clients that I was getting… Pivoting away from like fundraising, a lot of the for-profit clients that I was getting, they either needed copy, they want a new website or want a copy and had absolutely no marketing funnel or digital strategy to actually drive people to their website. So you have this beautiful, alluring copy and no one to read it or they wanted digital marketing help but like everything about their messaging was inconsistent, off and quite flat. 

And I think it’s important and I’ll mention that the clients that I work with already have like a really cool idea going on, and they’ve been able to create a lot of traction and generate sales without a strategy. And so that’s how I identify whether or not I really want to work with a client is if they already have a hot idea that’s catching on to the market without a smart marketing strategy in place. Cause I said that because a lot of folks will be like, “Well, how can you write copy if you don’t have reviews or if they don’t have clients.” And that’s how I know that they do have reviews and clients because they’ve already caught on. So I was doing that as Mariah Phillips Copywriter, and a lot of clients would come to me specifically for copy and then they would be like, “Oh, do you also do digital marketing?” Or I would just discover on my own that they didn’t have a digital marketing plan.

And so as I began to release like small level or low-risk courses like my recent SEO Course for Beginners, as I