Update Your RESUME & LINKEDIN with Martin Buckland (ep.178)

Is your resume or CV updated to comply with ATS (Applicant Tracking Software) standards? Whether you’re actively job-searching or vaguely considering a job change, these insights from resume expert Martin Buckland will set you up for success. Bonus download: “How to Optimize the Top of Your Resume for the ATS.”

 

BONUS DOWNLOAD

• “How to Optimize the Top of Your Resume for the ATS” – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/ATS

 

MARTIN BUCKLAND

• LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mbuckland/
• Website – https://aneliteresume.com/
• Podcast recommendations:
  • The World of Work, Dr. Nima Pasha, Henley Business School
  • The Application, Associate Dean of the Saeed Business School (Oxford)
  • Trium Connects, London School of Economics, HEC Paris, and NYU Stern

 

CONNECT WITH ANDREA 

• LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/
• LinkedIn – Talk About Talk:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/
• Website: TalkAboutTalk.com
• Newsletter:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/#subscribe
• YouTube Channel:  https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/

 

TRANSCRIPT

 

Are you vaguely considering a job change?  Or perhaps youre actively job searching? No matter your job status, you need an updated and optimized resume.  And as you’re about to learn, optimizing your resume has changed a LOT in the last few years!  Get ready to learn all about how AI and specifically the ATS or Applicant tracking system, has significantly changed the rules of effective résumé writing. 

 

If you choose to ignore the new resume guidelines based on the ATS, there’s a high probability that no one will ever read your résume.  On the other hand, if you incorporate the ATS guidelines, if you optimize your resume based on the advice you’re about to hear, you just might have a competitive advantage relative to other job seekers you’re competitive against.

 

Are you ready?

 

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode “Update your Resume and LinkedIn with Martin Buckland”

 

I get a lot of requests from my clients to help them with their CV. Let me say upfront there are things I can help with when it comes to your resume, and things I cannot. I can definitely help you craft your narrative in terms of clearly communicating your unique personal brand.  I can help you choose the words and phrases that will reinforce your unique value.

 

What I cannot do it help you with formatting. I am not expert on that. And as I said at the beginning, the ATS or Applicant Tracking System has completely changed how resumes should be formatted.  So, what should we do?  Let’s call in the expert- Mr. Martin Buckland.

 

You’re about to hear my conversation with Martin, where we literally go line by line and he describes what can and cannot be included starting with your name at the top all the way down to your interests at the very bottom.

 

To make this process easier for you, Martin and I created a one page template of what should be included in the top section of your résumé in particular. You can find a link to this one pager in the show notes which you can either print now before you listen to the interview or you can print and read it later as a review. We thought it would be helpful if you could see an example of exactly what Martin describes.

 

All right then without further ado I’m going to interview Martin and then we’ll get right to the interview. After the interview as always, I will summarize with three main learnings that I want to reinforce for you. Are you ready?

 

Martin Buckland is a a globally acclaimed Executive Career Coach and Executive Resume Writer. He’s helped thousands of individuals across the world manage their careers, climb the corporate ladder, and land the job they deserve.

 

After a distinguished Law Enforcement career with the renowned London Metropolitan

Police and Scotland Yard, Martin retired and started “Elite Resumes.” He provides career management services customized to the client’s job level, sector and career goal.

 

Working with EMBA programs inspired Martin to launch EMBA Career Coach, designing a platform of tools catering to graduates and candidates around in the world. He also works for numerous Business Schools around the world.

 

Martin is a sought-after presenter, podcast guest, coach and resume/cv writer. He frequently presents to large and small audiences and facilitates intense workshops as an authority in all pillars of career management. He enjoys delivering what he light heartedly calls ‘the career management gospel according to Martin’.

 

Martin has earned >20 certifications including Master Resume Writer, Certified Social Media Career Strategist, Personal Branding Strategist, Job & Career Transition Coach, Employment Interview Professional, and Job Search Trainer.

 

INTERVIEW

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Martin, for being here today to talk to the talk about talk listeners. about your resume and Linkedin profile.

 

Martin Buckland: You’re very welcome, Andreas. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Before we get into this, I just want to say, for those folks who are listening to this podcast and not watching on Youtube, you are wearing an absolutely fantastic shirt. I love it.

 

Martin Buckland: Well, thank you for your compliments. Yes, I’m known for my shirts and my color that I wear, and friends when I go out they ask me, well, wonder what color he’s going to wear. I wonder what shirt he’s going to wear today? And then when I go online and I do. As you know, a lot of live streaming. I try and wear a different shirt. Obviously you run out of shirts, but I try and wear a different shirt because, I’ve been doing 4 podcasts or 4 webcasts today. And each person has asked me about the shirt.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So this is a particularly remarkable shirt. Now, people are going to want to go to Youtube to see this. Or maybe I’ll put a photo of us in the show notes so people can see it. It’s fantastic. So this is your 4th time on camera today.

 

Martin Buckland: Yes, yes, the 1st one was at 4 Am. This morning.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. okay. And behind you, for those people who aren’t watching this on Youtube, you have 9 clocks that are all set for different time zones so clearly. You are coaching and doing workshops all over the world.

 

Martin Buckland: That’s right. Yeah, I have clients right now. In 31 different countries.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Amazing. Okay, so let’s get into this. Then this is well before we get into what does the the ideal Cv or resume look like. I have a perhaps more general question, which is. what’s the difference between a Cv. And a resume, or is there a difference.

 

Martin Buckland: Well, that could be a long winded question, but it really the Cv traditional Cv is known. It’s known or resume is known as A. Cv. In Europe and certain parts of Asia and Middle East, and then a resume is known here in the Americas and certain other parts of the world. So basically, they are the same documents. However, let’s go down to the drill it down a little bit further. A traditional Cv is reserved here in North America for somebody like a scientist, a physician and surgeon, somebody in the justice system, a judge or subject matter expert. But and that’s called the curriculum vitae. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? That’s right. I know that from being in Academia, yeah. different, a different sort of document. And that’s not necessarily what we’re talking about. So I’m going to try and stick to the right vocabulary here, and I’ll be asking you about a resume. But this advice is hopefully relevant for people all over the world with regards to kind of the classic managerial two-page resume or Cv. Whatever you want to call it.

 

Martin Buckland: Right or 3. Page.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, well, we’ll get into that. We’ll get into that. I love it. I knew I knew there was a little hesitation there. So what does the ideal resume? Look like, then?

 

Martin Buckland: Okay, so there’s 3 different types of resumes. So there’s the functional which I used to write when I 1st started writing resumes, or Cvs 31 years ago. That’s a skills based resume. And then there is the reverse chronological, which is sort of self explanatory. And then there’s the combination. So a combination of the functional and the reverse chronological. And that’s the resume the Cv of choice today, and you cannot afford to go out of that that particular format, the combination. Because today we become, we’ve gone into the technology age where candidates when they apply for jobs, aren’t screened by human eyes. Initially, they are screened now sadly, I don’t like it, and many other people don’t like it, but we have to abide by technology, and it’s built around a certain format and a certain content. And, as you know, Andrea, you cannot beat a computer, but you can at least try and match it.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. It’s like understanding the algorithm of Linkedin, which we’re going to get to in a moment here. But so, understanding what it’s looking for I was gonna ask you about the do’s and don’ts in terms of making it through the AI screen in a minute. But but let’s let’s go back to you talked about a functional versus a chronological cv, so I had heard that I guess humans, when they’re reading a resume prefer chronological because it gives a structure that our brain can understand. It tells a story, a chronological story, and sometimes people would, even

in their minds, question whether, if someone created a functional resume if they were trying to, you know, hide something or create some confusion, because maybe they took a big break and they were trying to hide it. So can you elaborate a little bit on? Why, you’re recommending or hearing that people are preferring the combination. And what, specifically, that might look like.

 

Martin Buckland: Well, a combination really above the crucial part of a resume Cv. Today is that translates it takes it from a traditional reverse chronological, which is a No. No, today, because it won’t go through the ats and it and it takes it away from the skills based. Resume. But you’re right. Yes, we used to used to be when somebody was received, a a functional, a skills based resume. Many years ago it used to put a lot of well question marks in people’s mind. Why is this person got reverted to a chrono to a functional rather than a chronological? But now, all resumes Cvs are, are combination combination of the 2.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So you mentioned Ats what is ats.

 

Martin Buckland: So it’s called application tracking system. It’s the acronym for application tracking system. So your resume your Cv. If you were to submit to a corporate job or an Ngo job, or even the government municipal, federal, local, or whatever it’s fed it sadly fed into. It’s not read by human eyes. It’s fed into a computer and pulled out, based on a certain format and a certain content. Right? So I’ve had many clients who just had one minor minor mistake. And they’ve been in job search, and they’re close to running out of money, and they’re panicking. They’re frustrated, you know, and their social or their family life is falling apart because of this situation.

It’s just 1 5 min change, and then they get interviews.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow, okay, so bring it on. What are some of these things that we need to be aware of?

 

Martin Buckland: Well, shading, you can’t have shading. I mean, that’s a pretty simple thing. People have a lot of shades in their resume. Each block of shade creates an extra page. So you know, if you’ve got 3 different types of shades, and you’ve got a traditional 3 page resume. That means it’s going to go to 6 pages, and then this is the crucial thing. They have their name, and they have all their contact info, and maybe down the left hand side. They have their skills. Well, the text within that shade cannot be read by the scanning machinery. So nobody will know what their name is, let alone their email and how to contact them and everything else.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Because of the shading, or because it’s in a box to the side.

 

Martin Buckland: Because of the shading, because so the text. So 2 things you can’t have the shading and that create every block of shade creates an extra page, and then the text within that shading. Then you can’t read the scanning machinery doesn’t read. So 0 comes out. So they wanted to know your name.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, this is critical. This is critical. So, yeah, so people black on white, right? Black copy on white paper. No shading, no color. Let’s just.

 

Martin Buckland: Have a little bit of color. You can have, maybe a color border, but you can’t have shading. You can’t have underlines. You can have hyperlinks, but you can’t have underlines, limited Bolding, and we’ll come to Bolding in a couple of minutes. Okay, you can only have one block of of of text, of 4 lines or more, and the rest has to be 3 lines. You can only have  squares, or small squares, or small circles as bullets. So you know, some people have those graphics, and whatever every graphic. So some people put the little I don’t know what it’s called. Well, the tell it, the the receiver for their telephone number and their, you know, little envelope for their email. Well, every one of those graphics again, creates an extra page.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow, wow, okay.

 

Martin Buckland: So it’s very, very particular, and it’s sad that many people are who are have got the who are a perfect candidate. But they’ve got 150% of the skills needed or required. and they’d be a perfect candidate. They’d be a perfect employee. But they’re counted out just simply because technology.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And you shared with me in a recent conversation, that you and I had a tip about credentials being on a separate.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah. Yeah. So so in in the when I used to 1st started writing resumes prior to Ats, I used to put the credentials around after the name Mba, Bsc. Or whatever. Now, if you put that, the scanning machinery will think your name is Mba. Bsc. And it will forget about your name. So you now have to put the the credentials, designations, or whatever right underneath your name.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: On a second line. Yeah, that’s also critical in particular, for some some positions, right where a certain designation or credential is required.

 

Martin Buckland: So I’m just touching it. There’s a whole long laundry list of stuff you can’t do. Yeah, I mean, I could keep you here to breakfast tomorrow morning, because it’s it’s like it’s, it’s really long list. I’ve had to adjust my resume writing style to meet this format.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, well, you can think of it as a competitive advantage. If you’re taking the time to listen to this podcast and to take this instructions from Martin, then you may have an advantage that a lot of people are lacking. I’m going to ask you now if you can just kind of go through from the top. You talked about what’s above the fold. I love that, and then the sections, and maybe the do’s and don’ts, and then we’ll move on to Linkedin.

 

Martin Buckland: Sure. Yeah. So so you have obviously have your name at the top, and then you have your and then you have your designations, and then underneath that you have your contact info. Now you don’t need to put your full address, which is good, like we used to your full residential address. You can just put the city and the province, or the state, or county, or whatever it is. But you must have these 4 key things. You must have your phone number. You must have your email and keep it a a professional email. Hotmail is like a card in all sin. You can’t have Hotmail. That’s like a that’s like a very unprofessional. And then you need to have your Linkedin address customized. And we’re going to talk about that when we come to Linkedin. And just recently, I’m going to say, in the last 6 or 8 weeks you now need to have your 10 digit zoom address on your resume. So those are the contact points. Then you have a line separating that, and then underneath that you have the directive. Now that this is the only forward or future part of the resume because the resume basically documents. Your career history. So historical document. So it takes you from today backwards cover letter written in the personal pronoun takes you from today forwards. So those 2 go hand in hand. So so you need to have the type. If you’re going to send to an executive recruiter. you, you would put a senior supply chain leader, or something, or senior finance leader, or whatever. But and then and then, if you want to get on their database. But if they have a specific job you are applying for you put chief financial officer, or senior or senior manager, Fpna, or whatever it is. got it. And then you need to for a corporate job. When you’re applying, you need to put the full title of that job underneath that you need to look through the job. Notice, this gives you extra points with the ats so underneath the job type underneath the job title. You put the 4 top hard skills that you think you in your own mind that they are looking for in that advert, and that.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I’ve got 2 questions.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah, sure.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: 1st of all, 1st of all, why 4, and secondly. hard skills, you know, do you mean specifically as opposed to soft skills.

 

Martin Buckland: Oh, sure, yeah. So hard skills are your business skills. So they are your functional skill, level industry and sometimes geographic skills.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Got it.

 

Martin Buckland: Whereas your soft skills are your personal skills, the skills you were you were born with and brought up on, so that you need to distinguish between the 2, and we. Then we’re going to have a section on that in a couple of minutes. So so you do the top. Why, top 4 is because it has to be on one line, because if you go, this is another ats thing. If it goes to 2 lines, you throw the ats off.  So if there is room for 5, you can have 5. But don’t go more than one line. So what I do is I do supply chain, management, space bullet, space asset management, space bullet space demand, planning, space, bullet space, and whatever the 4th one is.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Got it.

 

Martin Buckland: Beneath that you have your personal brand. So that is your, as you know, is your unique promise of value, your differentiator, your value. Add, and that has to be written in 1517 or 19. Words don’t go to 18. Don’t go to 16. Don’t go to 20. Why is because psychologists tell us that the human mind our mind picks up on 1517, or 19 words faster than any other combination.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I have never heard that before.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah. And so that goes in bold italics on 2 lines underneath those 4, hard skills.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

 

Martin Buckland: You have a space, and then you go into a 4 to 6 line margin to margin block paragraph. And there’s 4 key ingredients. You need to have in here. These are the what I would call the sweaty palm, twiddling your thumbs, shuffling your butt questions. You’re going to be asked in the in the interview, so you may as well put the answers to them in the resume. It makes your life a lot easier plus. It makes the interviewer’s life a lot easier. So one of the questions is what one word one word would describe you now start, that work, that paragraph off of that one word, and then you need to describe your leadership style, because, as you know, we all lead differently. And then you need to describe your communication style, because we all communicate differently. And then final thing is, what are you renowned for? Business, wise not to be duplicated from your personal brand your personal brands over here, and what you’re renowned for business. Wise is over here, so don’t duplicate the 2. So 4 key things in that 4 to 6 line block paragraph. and then you go into your business functional skill, level industry, maybe geographic geographic skills. So you’re allowed a maximum of 28. So.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: 28. That’s a lot.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah, it is. But some. Sometimes there isn’t a maximum of 4 lines. So you know, you might only go to 24, or even 20, but 28 is the Max. Don’t go any more than 28, whereas on a Linkedin you can go to 100. But we’ll talk a little bit about that in a couple of minutes. But so so you you do it. So executive leadership space pipe, the downward line space, and then whatever the second one is space, pipe space, and then whatever the 3rd one is space, pipe space. But look at the advert. There again. Take those top 4 again and repeat them, and then take all the other hard skills and put them down there and then, and then you can and then put the other hard skills that you think well, you that you have don’t put hard skills that you haven’t got, because that’s yeah embellishing that’s not called for, but but get about 2026, 28, if you can get 28 in that, that would be good. And then. So now you’re a 3rd of the way down the 1st page. If that’s the top of the above the above the fold. Now you go into reverse chronological of your work. Experience.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, so.

 

Martin Buckland: When you go into a job search people people don’t know how they they don’t know. Then they’re sales people. They’re nothing to do with finance or supply, chain, or marketing, or whatever they are selling themselves. The 3 worst functions for resume writing are sales. marketing, and human resources.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Why is that?

 

Martin Buckland: You would think they would be the best. Well, they can sell anything, but they can’t sell themselves.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

 

Martin Buckland: I never repeat an action verb. So when we come into the professional experience.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

 

Martin Buckland: I’ll repeat an action verb between page one and page 2. You can repeat it between page one and page 3. I see on my sales resume increased, increased, increased, increased. Well, how boring is that? What about propelled? What about catapulted? What about elevated, raised, boosted, uplifted. There’s so many other actions it gives. It excites the audience at the other end as well, and it also shows you have a good command of English.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So the algorithm doesn’t care that you have synonyms and a great vocabulary, right? But the algorithm is looking for things. So you’ve switched now from at the top. 3, rd the above the fold. It was what you were describing to me violates so many tenets of effective communication, interpersonal communication, and written communication. For example, people’s eyes glaze over after a paragraph that runs more than 3 lines, they’ll either skip it or they’ll skim it. Neither one of those is good news for you, so I always tell people keep it below 3 lines, and if you’re making a list. you know I I would say at most. It’s a 3 by 3. Right? You have 3 columns and 3 rows. And you’re saying 28.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. So the top part is really written for the algorithm, for the ats.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah. But I mean people, recruiters and other Hr professionals. People who read and assess resumes all the time now become used to this this format, but you still get that first, st you know the 6, second, 5, second, 4, second, or whatever it is, initial, cut. If it they can, they can tell instantly if it’s not a good resume. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Okay, so the second.

 

Martin Buckland: One kick of the can. You need to invest time? And then, if you, you know, can’t, or make an investment in somebody who’s professional to do it. There’s lots of us around.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So what are the main sections after this top of the fold? Summary section? You said professional experience and.

 

Martin Buckland: Yes, and the professional experience based on accomplishments. So when I 1st started writing resumes, we used to put responsibilities. They’re not really interested in your responsibilities now they’re interested in. Well, how much money could he make me? How much money can he save me? Can he eliminate headcount? Can he introduce new systems and processes. Can he save us from Cra? Or can he save us from? You know? Total destruction? All sorts of different things. So. yeah, so.  And there’s then there’s the emphasis. So people sell their companies by using bolding and maybe capitals more than they’re selling their their their title, their job title. Well, this is not their company’s resume, this is their resume. The wrong emphasis is on, you know, and then, underneath the title, which is in bold capitals, there are some responsibilities that the Ats and the reader. The human eye needs to see at the other end they need to see. Generally they need to see direct reports, indirect reports. Your Capex budget, your opex budget, and if you have it, your P. And L. Now, if it’s international job, they need to see well how you know how many countries have you got staff in and things like that? Or how many branches are you responsible for, or whatever that would be in small letters? And then this is the sale. This is what people have difficulty in, and it just blows my mind. They can’t sell themselves. So you build the acronym their sales stories around. I don’t call myself a resume writer anymore. I call myself a storyteller. so I tell stories on behalf of my clients based on their performance. Because you, if you were to go on a job search, you’re not going to be hired for your responsibilities. You’re going to be hired for your results, your accomplishments, your achievements, your performance. So you need to Now, this is where these the ats comes into like again some of the star stories I write for people, you know, like resurrecting a company. They were in deep, deep trouble. They got bank debt. They got all sorts of different stuff wrong with it. They got the tax authorities after them, and all that jazz they’ve resurrected that company. There’s a good word for you resurrected. So you know you revive it. And and so so that’s that would go. Maybe if I was right, maybe 10 lines somewhere like that. But scanning machinery. The Ats only allows you one block of text of 4 lines or more. Everything else has to be 3 lines. So what you can do is you can cheat. You can do the situation as one bullet either or circle bullet, and then you can sub bullet the task, the action and the result. So 3 lots, 3 further, 3 lots of 3, which is and then the total 12 lines. I’ve never gone to. I’ve never gone to a 12 line, but I’ve come close to about 10, maybe 11. But yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So you can split up the star framework into different points as necessary. So you’re not going over. It’s 3 lines. You’re not allowed to go over.

 

Martin Buckland: Not allowed to go even one character over 3 lines and one character that blows you out. Okay? So.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I, yeah, cool. I love it.

 

Martin Buckland: Sure. So it makes it. The resumes today. It makes the interviewer’s life at the other end a lot easier because they’ve got the questions there, almost yeah, to ask really a run through of your resume.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, yeah, I guess you’re you’re begging for the question, then, other than the stories that you shared in your resume. Do you have any other stories that you can share where you solved a problem made money save money, whatever it is. Right? So you can kind of anticipate that. That’s.

 

Martin Buckland: Performance after poor sack it out at this end rather than the earlier end of the career. I normally cut it off about 13 or 14 years, and then really scale it back and then save the world or something. In which case that’s a star story. Yeah, you have to tell the story. But.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I have heard that the most recent titles or positions that you had you share more detail and then less as it goes back in time.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But one and a half star stories per year. That’s the measure. So people said to say to me, Oh, I haven’t got a 1, and I haven’t got any accomplishments. Well, I say, well, sit with me because I’m an ex police officer as well, so I’m a detective. And I pull. I pull literally pull stuff out of them. And they like, Whoa, wow, like, that’s flipping. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So happy. They’re so overjoyed. And but everybody. but it’s just a question of getting in to the right mindset of doing, sitting down and thinking about them.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: This is another reason, I guess, is a bit of a side here for us to update our resumes. Even when we’re not on the job market. Maybe every year after you’re done your performance review, you take your accomplishments, turn them into star stories on your resume, and then it’s so much easier when the time comes right.

 

Martin Buckland: Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I get. I mean, I put it on Linkedin all the time. You know, you should update your resume every 3 or 4 or 5 months, and you know they don’t believe it. And then, of course, you know, they they say I’ve got a job offer, and I need your my resume by tomorrow. But I’ve been watching your Linkedin profile. You know your posts, and whatever well, it doesn’t happen that way. It takes, you know, working with me can take up to a month. But yeah, like. And they’re so frustrated. Yeah. but that will always have your resume prepared, because tomorrow, Friday or next Monday next Tuesday, an executive recruiter could call you with your dream job the job of your dreams, and you don’t know how you haven’t got an up-to-date resume. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. So how much? What proportion of the space of your Cv. Whether it’s 2 or 3 pages, as you were saying, should your your professional experience take up, and then what are the sections? After that.

 

Martin Buckland: So you should really I mean, the rule of thumb is either do 2 complete pages or 3 complete pages. You don’t do 2 and a half, 2 and a 3rd or 2 and a quarter whatever, because, psychologically, what? What does that center? The reader at the other end? Right. So then the education comes in. So here again people sell their universities. and then they they just they totally ignore their degree or their diploma or certification.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh!

 

Martin Buckland: Designation. You you you you highlight the designation. Yeah. And if you’ve got a thesis or you’ve got you know something you’ve done like a capstone project or something. You put that.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Scholarship, maybe a scholarship or an academic award, or whatever. Yeah.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah? Yeah. Or if you’ve been on an Emba program and you’ve done international modules. So you’ve done a module in London, Paris and New York, and maybe San Francisco or Dubai. You put that in there, because that shows shows you shows the reader that you know, you’ve got international background as well.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Okay? So you’ve got education. And also that should be reverse chron chronology as well. Right.

 

Martin Buckland: That’s chronological. Yeah. And then then you can go into things like memberships and affiliations, licenses and certifications. Then you can go into patents, publications, presentations. I normally, if a lot of people got, you know, lots of presentations and lots of publications, I cheat. I go to an addendum. So I had create enough a 4th page what you do. But you ask the reader at the other end if they would like the addendum. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right beautiful. So I was having this conversation with my son, who’s graduating from college, and he was asking for help with his resume, and he had it at about one and a half pages, and I said, You know, it should really be 2 pages. And he said, No, mom, we’ve actually been told one page. So I’m curious what you think of. So he’s going out on the job. By the way, he successfully secured the job of his dreams. Yeah. One page for him graduating unless he’s got extensive work experience prior to going to school, or whatever. Yeah, that that’s perfect. But sadly, you know, when I mean, as you know, I specialize at the emba level. So

 

Martin Buckland: the career services at lots of business schools. They don’t. they. They’re more vastly out of date and.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah, I got a cat walking in front of me. You can see that.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Just saw a whitetail go by.

 

Martin Buckland: Because I work from home.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s awesome. So anyway. So yeah, so one page is like, No, no, you can’t create an Ats friendly resume on one page. But.

 

Martin Buckland: Services are giving. People spend 200,000 Usd to go through those programs. And then the career services say, Do one page that’s like a cardinal sin.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. Okay.

 

Martin Buckland: So that’s go on top of this niche.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, what about? At the bottom of our resume, where we have, you know, interests and hobbies. And and you have, you know, like, I led the toastmasters group of Toronto for 3 years from this. Whatever you have, the things that you’ve done in the community, maybe with your church or your hobbies, the clubs, etc, and personal interests. What are some do’s and don’ts? There.

 

Martin Buckland: Anything political, anything religious sadly. We’re still in a discriminatory age. Unless you’re applying to a political party. Unless you’re applying to a faith-based organization, then put it in. But leave that out because we can still discriminate against you. But yeah, and if you’ve got some community, Red Cross, or you’ve got Princess Margaret or something, yeah, or something in the community. And you’ve raised money. Then put that in. There are exceptions to that rule. I mean, I’ve had one client who’s who’s climbed to Mount Kilimanjaro? Mount Everest? Mount Blanc, the 5 top mountains in the world. Well, what does that tell the reader at the other end? You know there’s a lot of persistence. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. you’re reminding me of a conversation I had with a client a couple years ago, and I was coaching him on his personal brand, and about 3 sessions in it was our 3rd coaching session. He said, sorry, I look like such a mess. I just came in from a run, and I said, Oh, this hasn’t come up in our conversation yet. You’re a runner, he said. Oh, yeah, I’ve run several marathons. In fact, I’m training for the. And I was like. how did this not come up? He said. I don’t think it’s relevant. I said exactly what you just said. It’s very relevant. 1st of all, it’s interesting. Secondly, it shows that you have discipline. and it shows that you have perseverance, especially because it is an endurance Marathon, right? And.

 

Martin Buckland: Oh, sure!

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So we ended up putting on his Linkedin profile on the headline we added, Avid Runner, and his banner image is a picture of him at the starting line of some Marathon that he ran, I think, in in Africa or somewhere.

 

Martin Buckland: Oh, right? Yeah. The those crazy ones across the desert. Yeah. Oh, my, gosh, yeah, yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, so, so.

 

Martin Buckland: An employer how? There’s tons of hard skill, what? Many soft skills that go into that? Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So you know, I remember again, this was when I was much, much earlier in my career. It wouldn’t show up in my resume now. But when I was  20 year old, when I was 18, I skated in the closing ceremonies of the Olympics in 1980, and I carried the Canadian flag into the stadium. Okay? So I had under interests and hobbies, I said, ex-competitive figure. Skater carried the Canadian flag. Inevitably, every interview I had in the 1st 10 years of my career they would say, Okay, we want to get into this, Andrea. But 1st of all. tell us your experience from the about the Olympics. Right? So.

 

Martin Buckland: Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So what I’m hearing from you, though Martin is. you don’t want to list every interest and hobby that you have. Ask yourself whether the way that you spend your time outside of work is telling a story that is going to support the narrative around. Why they should hire you, especially in terms of maybe your soft skills. and to stay away from political and religious.

 

Martin Buckland: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So in Industry Association. So if you’ve been voted nominated by your peers to become, I’ll go on the executive team of your local chapter or the National Association. Then that’s valuable as well. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right, right, as, of course. And we didn’t talk about this. But what about volunteer volunteer positions specifically, and and board work.

 

Martin Buckland: Sure that would.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Be a separate section, right?

 

Martin Buckland: Yes, yes, so so a board director resume. So if you’re if you’re the latter end of your career, I would encourage you as a career coach. You’ve got management, the leadership abilities. Significant. I would encourage you, maybe, to go for a board position. Now, a board resume is a totally different document to a. to a corporate resume. It, focuses on risk management. Audit any type of audit and governance.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Governance. Right? That’s right. Okay.

 

Martin Buckland: But different format. So the so that’s that’s another podcast. Okay, that’s another. That’s another episode. Yeah.

 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Is there anything else you want to add about resumes or Cvs in terms of whether it’s the human reading it or and or the the algorithm, the software reading it any do’s and don’ts that we’ve missed.

 

Martin Buckland: Your marketing sales collateral. So you you’re, I tell people I break it down to the basics. You are a product, and you’re sending that product to the market, whatever market that may be. So the the package for that product is your resume on one side, your Cv. And then your Linkedin profile on the other side, so don’t mess around with either, or you’ve got to have them as close to perfect as possible. But there