Small Efforts - with Sean Sun and Andrew Askins

Andrew ditched Cursor for Claude Max and the economics made it an easy call. In this episode they get into the Meta Monster pivot toward content optimization, why Claude hallucinated an entire Wix API, and what the switch to Conductor actually looks like day to day. Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript: 00:00.47SeanCool. Thanks. What's up?00:03.03AndrewNot much. I haven't seen you in like three fucking months.00:06.58SeanYeah.00:06.74AndrewHow are you?00:08.06Seanah I'm good. Q1 is finally over. RSA is finally over. So now it's time to worry about Black Hat.00:15.45AndrewJesus.00:17.14Seanum But.00:19.03AndrewQ1 being finally over means we're like even closer to the death day for Metamonster.00:19.26Seanah00:25.67SeanOh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.00:27.03AndrewHave I told you this, that like Austin and I were like, if if it's not working by the middle of the summer, we're gonna, we need to like pull the plug.00:34.90SeanYou have. You have. yeah What would you do if you pulled the plug? Would you start a new thing, or can I finally hire you again?00:43.25AndrewDude, i I have, I don't know, is the short answer, but I have lots of thoughts. Like part of me wants to to buy a trad business, which is what I've been calling brick and mortar businesses lately.00:53.78AndrewAnd every time I say it, it makes people cringe, which is why I continue to say it.00:56.04SeanThat's horrible. du't That's disgusting. Mexico City is changing you. i can't believe you'd say that.01:02.13AndrewWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.01:03.16Seanforpin01:05.14AndrewNo, that's just me having a stupid sense of humor. You can't blame Mexico City for that.01:07.90SeanNo, no, it's good.01:09.10AndrewMexico City way too beautiful a place to blame for that.01:09.88SeanIt's good. Speaking, speaking of trad related things, have you seen the documentary?01:14.26AndrewOh God, where is this going?01:18.45SeanHave you been, ah have you been, ah did you watch the Manosphere documentary on Netflix with Louis Thoreau?01:24.79AndrewNo, but my little sister did and she was like, you have to watch it.01:28.22SeanIt's so good.01:28.28AndrewAnd i I haven't watched it yet. Yeah.01:30.15SeanIt's so good. It's all Ben and I could talk about at RSA.01:34.26AndrewNice.01:34.32SeanSorry.01:35.00AndrewHave you seen Project Hail Mary yet?01:37.11SeanNo, I hear it's good, but i don't know what it's about.01:38.71AndrewI hear it's really good. Yeah. Oh, you didn't read the book?01:42.21SeanNo, I don't read.01:43.86AndrewI forgot.01:44.73Seanyeah i think I think if all books were in AI chat bubbles, I would read all of it, but they're not. so that's01:52.77AndrewThat's the lamest thing you've ever said to me. It's almost as bad as trad businesses.01:59.32Seanit's It's probably worse.02:02.68Seanum How you been?02:03.89AndrewDude, I've been good.02:04.43SeanHow's life?02:06.32Andrewum We are working on a pivot for Metamonster. i am becoming, I'm embracing the fully AI-pilled by boy life.02:10.74SeanOK.02:18.71SeanOK.02:18.81Andrewum i still love Mexico. Yeah.02:23.66SeanGood.02:26.68Andrewyeah02:28.11SeanOK, can you tell me, can you just tell me what you're pivoting to before I like rip my hair out? Because I really need you to build some features at the moment.02:35.48AndrewSo it's I call it a pivot part somewhat facetiously. um02:39.31SeanOK.02:40.45Andrewwe're We're not really pivoting, like the tool is still going to work the same way it does now, um but we're going deep on content optimization.02:46.03SeanCool.02:51.03AndrewSo we're building we're building a single page view where you can still update metadata, but we also do SERP analysis and content recommendations for you and help you auto apply them.03:04.79Andrewum And so we're we're going to be adjusting our positioning to more directly take on ClearScope and Surfer. um03:15.96Seanand air ops.03:16.09AndrewSo the Yeah, air ops a little bit. I think of air ops as a little bit different. I think of air ops more as content orchestration, um like generate content at scale, whereas we're more content optimization.03:30.78AndrewSo like take your existing content or like new pieces of content and help you optimize it. Yeah.03:38.01SeanSick.03:39.39AndrewYep.03:40.43SeanCool.03:40.44Andrewum03:41.18Seanis Is this like a like like an editor that I'm writing in? And then, OK, cool. And then you can publish the web flow.03:49.05Andrewah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.03:50.40SeanOh, good, good, good, good.03:50.74AndrewTotally, totally.03:52.44SeanYou should do it. You should do it so I can use it. i don't I don't care.03:55.22AndrewYeah.03:56.00SeanNo. What?03:56.73AndrewSo, the um I, did you see my LinkedIn

Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00.85AndrewDude, your notifications are non-fucking-stop.00:04.50SeanYeah, they are. I know. It's terrible.00:08.08AndrewBefore you muted it, it was just like, what's... Your Slack noise is like a click clack. It's like a... Okay.00:13.94SeanYeah, the knock, the Slack knock.00:15.92Andrewdid it did00:16.09SeanYeah.00:16.75Andrewokay I don't ever have noises turned on for anything. It drives me crazy.00:22.67SeanYeah, I mean, don't know. You used to it, I guess. What are you going to and You know what notifications does drive crazy?00:27.94AndrewSicko.00:32.16SeanMessages. Yeah,00:34.98AndrewMessages, like iMessage or like Facebook Messenger or...00:36.68Seanyeah, yeah. No, sorry.00:40.30AndrewiMessage.00:40.84SeaniMessage. Yeah, iMessage.00:41.87AndrewYeah, yeah.00:42.99SeanNoises drive me insane. Slag is okay.00:46.20AndrewIt's kind of like a little like bubble burst, right? It's like a bubbly thing, sounding thing.00:52.18SeanOh, mine is a ding.00:54.12AndrewNo, maybe maybe the bubble is something else.00:54.20SeanMine is like a shark.00:56.16AndrewI don't know.00:56.88SeanThe bubble is like when you send a message.00:56.97Andrewsome Somebody. Oh, maybe. Yeah.01:00.56SeanYeah. Yeah.01:01.36AndrewYeah. Dude, did you get any sleep last night? We were chatting at like 1.30 a.m.01:09.48AndrewSecret pod.01:13.37SeanYeah. I still have like three hours. It's not that bad.01:17.44AndrewMan, that's so much sleep. what You must be wide awake fucking alert.01:21.96Seanyeah Well, I was going to ask you if you had any sleep last night, but you know.01:33.12AndrewI actually didn't fall asleep until like 3, 4 a.m., something like that.01:33.70SeanYeah,01:38.72AndrewI have a new favorite Dropout show. can't you You know Dropout, right? We've talked about Dropout.tv, best streaming service the internet.01:44.46Seanyeah, yeah. Yeah, college humor.01:49.32Andrewon the internet01:52.82SeanOh,01:52.96Andrewuh they have a it's not a new show i've but i i was finally catching up uh what is it called the parlor room where it's like a they played board comedians played board games and you watch so it's like right up my fucking alley i'm cursing a lot today sorry02:05.75Seancool.02:07.93SeanNice. It's okay. It's because don't have any sleep. I get it.02:13.93SeanUnlike me, who slept a lot.02:18.89Andrewuh have you ever heard of blood on the clock tower02:21.94SeanNo, no, no,02:22.83AndrewIt's like a deception game, kind of like mafia kind of vibes, but more complicated and there's, it looks really fun. The thing that makes it, I think, complicated is like the players, the roles that players get can change every time.02:37.96AndrewAnd you, there are multiple players who can have roles where they think they're one thing, but they're actually something else. They're getting, false information.02:44.69Seanno.02:46.28AndrewSo you can be the marionette, which is like you're controlled by like the big bad. You can be a drunk. You can also like get poisoned or something. And then there's like so there's all this stuff where you're like trying to piece things together, but you have to also consider the fact that you might have incorrect information.03:08.46Andrewlike the stuff you think you know about yourself might be wrong. It's chaotic as hell.03:12.93Seanthat's pretty cool that's pretty yeah that's pretty cool interesting okay that's it every time i hear deception game and i hear like mafia i kind of roll my eyes and internally just because i can't like there's there's just so many you know there's just so many of this like but but i think i think that's a nice that's like a03:14.95AndrewSuper fun. Yeah.03:25.54AndrewSure.03:29.61AndrewI know.03:35.68Seanan Actually, interesting spin on it.03:35.71Andrewyeah Some of them are a lot better than others.03:37.95SeanYeah.03:37.98Andrewlike kuup is pretty fun. Secret Hitler is pretty fun. Generally I don't love deception games though because I like i hate lying, I'm a terrible liar.03:47.70AndrewBut my strategy is usually just to be as chao like as chaotic and suspicious as hell even when I'm not the the like person so that that way if I do get the like big bad, everyone's just like Andrew's just being Andrew, he's just an idiot.03:55.67SeanI see.04:02.77Andrewlike Ignore him.04:03.10SeanNice. Nice.04:05.49Andrewi have to like access access because i know i'm going to access when i'm uh actually in trouble04:13.25Seanit's like It's like the opposite of like just always pretending you're bad at lying. So everyone thinks always telling the truth.04:22.08Andrewit's kind of the same thing it's kind of the same thing right yea

We found a cheat code for learning Spanish using Claude and Anki (without studying grammar). Plus, the Cult Brand marketing framework that turns customers into superfans.In this episode, Andrew reveals why he is moving to Mexico City and going all in on his startup. Sean breaks down how he scaled his agency to 18 employees and the specific Positioning Strategy he uses to charge premium prices.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Shipletter: https://shipletter.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,200I've had several situations where I just like make stupid mistakes. I feel very envious of the00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:10,800ability to like, spend all your time and energy on like one thing, we kind of made a mistake that I00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,200think I've seen a lot of people make. Ever felt like you're stuck making the same mistakes or on00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:20,480the verge of something big but held back? Today we explore founder struggles, mistakes, burnout, and00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,239focusing on real growth. We'll discuss creating content for people, not algorithms, and staying00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:29,640grounded in what matters. I'm Andrew Askins, founder of meta monster, and I'm Sean's son00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,000founder of miscreants. Let's dive into the journey. Like I think a lot of founders like, identify that800:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,559by accident and build a product around that. I don't give it. AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already900:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,199knows I'm stupid. You are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that1000:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,240actually fits said methodology. Learning a language is a lot of work. Demand is a fluid1100:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,600substance. My biggest thing is like social anxiety of picking up and making mistakes. Every small1200:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,400move is how we can.1300:00:59,970 --> 00:01:06,489How's your Spanish going? Pretend I was in Spanish. Um.1400:01:07,050 --> 00:01:13,769Not something smart. So menos lento is is muy, uh. Muy Modesto.1500:01:13,809 --> 00:01:20,729Muy, muy Modesto. Um, I, uh, I have been texting a lot in Spanish lately, so, like, my1600:01:20,730 --> 00:01:27,449reading and writing has been getting a lot better. Faster than my speaking and listening. Um,1700:01:27,449 --> 00:01:33,009I still, I was just hanging out with a bunch of friends last night. Um, and to be fair, uh, four of1800:01:33,010 --> 00:01:39,650my friends, um, were were ganging up on one of their boyfriends. And so it was,1900:01:39,809 --> 00:01:46,689uh, there was a lot of very rapid Spanish, um, and a lot of, like, g. Longo slang flying around, so,2000:01:46,730 --> 00:01:51,089like, not the easiest to understand, but I was just, like, I was just sitting back laughing, like, I2100:01:51,089 --> 00:01:55,929don't understand any of this. Although, interestingly enough, understood everything at the2200:01:55,929 --> 00:02:02,830same time. You know, like the universal language. It was pretty obvious what was happening. Nice.2300:02:03,550 --> 00:02:10,470Also, I heard you have a new, uh, nickname in Mexico City. Yeah, we don't need to go into that.2400:02:10,470 --> 00:02:17,270That's fine. I feel like. Yeah. Okay. All right. Fine. Am I? My friends, Rosa and Wyatt. Uh,2500:02:17,270 --> 00:02:23,710Rosa's from here. Um. Uh, and, uh, she's dating my my good friend Wyatt. Um,2600:02:23,750 --> 00:02:30,629and one night, I may have had a little too much fun, and, uh, they had to take care of me a bit,2700:02:30,630 --> 00:02:37,630and I got got dubbed El Polito clause. Um, which means, uh, the little colored chick.2800:02:37,830 --> 00:02:44,589Um, the the backstory is in Mexico City. Like, I don't know, 10 or 20 years2900:02:44,589 --> 00:02:49,550ago. Uh, there used to be markets everywhere where you could get these little baby chicks that had3000:02:49,550 --> 00:02:55,710been dyed like neon colors. And the dye was very bad for the chicks. And so, um, you would, like, buy3100:02:55,710 --> 00:03:01,319them for your kid, and they would inevitably die within two weeks. Um, and so they were like, just3200:03:01,320 --> 00:03:08,240very hard to keep alive. And so, Polito declares, is a, uh, is a joke you3300:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,720make about someone when they can't take care of themselves, when they when they need, need help. You3400:03:14,720 --> 00:03:20,319know, I don't think you told me. Did I not give you the context? No, that was way more morbid than I3500:03:20,320 --> 00:03:27,320thought. I thought it was just like. Like it

A two-hour feedback session with the SEO Gets founder changes MetaMonster's direction. Meanwhile, Andrew realizes he's burnt out on AI and capitalism and Sean defends Spider-Man Magic cards against gatekeepers. Also: surfing vs hiking debates, fractured ankles, the three C's of career satisfaction, and why JetLag's Magic episode was terrible.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:01.15SeanWhat's up?00:00:02.51AndrewI miss you It's been too long.00:00:03.76SeanI miss you00:00:05.97Andrewi did that Long time. Been a long time.00:00:09.78Seantoo. Long time. Yeah.00:00:13.45zAndrewWhen did we last like actually talk other than a couple of quick Slack messages?00:00:17.87SeanLike last year, pretty much.00:00:19.81Andrewdon't think it was that long.00:00:20.14SeanThis one. My brain's in 2026 already. It's it's cold. i i look outside at like four o'clock. It's already dark.00:00:28.96AndrewMy three of my best friends in Atlanta and I have a group chat that we started when I moved here. And it's it's titled See You in 2026, which like started as a joke because like my one friend quit his job and had a little bit of travel planned. And like I had a little bit of travel planned and they, the couple in the group chat had some travel planned. And so it was just kind of a joke. And now our friend who started the group chat, who quit his job,00:00:56.88Andrewhe is currently in seoul south korea he he is actually like we're actually not going to see him until 2026 pretty much he did00:00:59.48SeanWhoa, cool.00:01:05.52SeanSorry, did you say he was in Seoul, South Korea or Seoul?00:01:10.83Andrewseoul i said seoul south korea did did fuck that up okay did i say south k-kir-olina no i maybe i did that would be wild00:01:13.50SeanOh, I don't know why heard South Carolina. That's okay. We'll go back to the tape. We'll see if I was crazy or if you were crazy. No, i've definitely misheard you. I definitely.00:01:24.85SeanWe'll go back to the tape later.00:01:25.18AndrewHe's in South Korea right now in Seoul.00:01:26.62SeanCool.00:01:27.26AndrewApparently it's cold.00:01:29.54SeanYeah.00:01:30.14AndrewI forget how far north it is, but he's...00:01:32.06Seanyou should You should ask him how crazy things were when Korea won the League Legends finals again. Yeah, kind of curious.00:01:40.80AndrewOoh, okay, will do. Yeah, he's been... But dude's been traveling all fucking over the place. I'm so happy for him.00:01:48.26SeanNice.00:01:49.12AndrewYeah, he seems like... lighter and happier which is good to see yeah yeah00:01:52.72SeanNice. That's good. That's good. Do you feel lighter and happier with less hair on your head?00:02:01.66AndrewI am uh okay the I am no is the answer I feel like I'm a bit in a uh phase that I feel like I end up in every few years where I'm like questioning and trying to rediscover my personal style. And that often starts with trying to find a haircut that I like.00:02:24.41Andrewmy My typical haircut is just like the very standard white guy, like a little bit short on the sides, a little bit slicked over on top.00:02:24.10Seanmean,00:02:33.51AndrewAnd I just, know I always come back to it and then I go, this doesn't feel like me. And then I try something else and I'm like, well, this also doesn't feel like me.00:02:43.31AndrewSo... yeah i don't know i i'm trying i'm trying a messy fringe this time thanks00:02:48.07Seanit looks good. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it looks good. I think i like it looks good. You got you got like your oversized, boxy, drop shoulder t-shirt, the haircut.00:03:00.87SeanVery trendy. Very trendy.00:03:02.34Andrewi just watched a youtube video where like three people roasted a guy for wearing a uniqlo erism like boxy t-shirt and i was like fuck i thought that00:03:08.64SeanHaters. Haters. Haters. They're so comfortable. Haters.00:03:12.39Andrewthey are so comfortable yeah00:03:12.84SeanGet over themselves. Haters. oh Yeah. Don't take me back to skinny jeans, you know? was terrible time.00:03:21.28Andrewi feel like they weren't they weren't advocating for skinny but they were also like they were basically saying if you're gonna go boxy you need to it needs to look intentional like you're intentionally trying to be boxy like if you have like one boxy thing and then one more skinny thing it can look weird And like fit still matters. And that like the most timeless look is something kind of in between. It's not like crazy baggy, but also not crazy skinny.00:03:49.69AndrewBut then that's also kind of boring. I don't know.00:03:52.68Seani think I think there's ways to make all of it work.00:03:52.83Andrewdon't know.00:03:56.37SeanIt just kind of depend

From Magic addiction to Margins updates - Sean finally talked to a customer! Andrew tried Claude Code and wasn't impressed, then gets into product ideas around workflows and flexible tables for MetaMonster. Surprise twist: the guys accidentally design a $699 productized service for MetaMonster and close the deal live on the call. Also: type 2 fun, hiking debates, and why slabbing a kid isn't what it sounds like.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:00.82SeanWhat's up?00:00:02.45AndrewNot much. Just hanging out. What's up with you?00:00:05.69SeanCool. I have blown so much money this week. and Last week.00:00:12.87AndrewOh yeah?00:00:13.75SeanYeah, yeah, yeah.00:00:15.24AndrewOn something fun, I hope?00:00:16.73Seanactually Magic the Gathering. Magic the Gathering.00:00:22.28Andrewis Are you like building a deck to play? Is this investing? Are you like trying to buy collectibles?00:00:29.29Seananyone anyone that tells you they're investing in Magic the Gathering is lying to you and themselves.00:00:29.64AndrewWhat's the...00:00:33.17SeanNo one no one invested this in cardboard. No one invested in Magic the Gathering. let me I'm sure baseball cards are are profitable in whatever way. and Yeah, I'm bill building a deck to play and also just like spending money opening packs. and i got really into it in high school.00:00:54.33Seanand I think I was like fairly okay at it. And this is my like latest like obsession, indulgence, addiction, all that stuff.00:01:05.22AndrewFor whatever reason, I never got into magic.00:01:05.37SeanYeah.00:01:06.86AndrewI was super into Pokemon, and like I was you know collected Pokemon cards like crazy back in the day, but I never...00:01:13.89SeanPokemon is huge now, by the way.00:01:15.58AndrewYeah, I know.00:01:16.30SeanYeah.00:01:16.41AndrewI i like have a couple of creators I follow on YouTube, and it is really addicting watching people open packs. and then00:01:25.44SeanIt really is.00:01:25.71AndrewI also follow, you know Coop's Collections?00:01:28.70SeanNo. No.00:01:30.08AndrewHis whole MO is just that he's like really stupid, nice to people, like mostly little kids.00:01:34.08SeanOkay.00:01:35.28AndrewAnd so like little kids, he pretty openly says he doesn't make that much money selling.00:01:35.34SeanOkay.00:01:42.13AndrewHe makes most of his money from content. And so like little kids will come up to him at shows and he'll just give away cards and stuff.00:01:44.60SeanRight. and Nice.00:01:50.93AndrewThere's a, he live streams himself at shows.00:01:53.19SeanUh-huh.00:01:54.49AndrewAnd so people will just like watch him interact.00:01:57.25SeanI see, I see.00:01:57.79AndrewAnd there's, there's someone in his community who goes by the name Sweaty Booger. That's their username. And like Sweaty Booger is famous on Goof's collections because he will often like,00:02:05.26SeanOkay.00:02:12.57Andrewdonate money so that Coop can slab a kid. There's, it's, it's pretty slab a kid, which means give them a, give them a graded card in a slab.00:02:17.17SeanWait, so he can what a kid? Slab a kid.00:02:21.67SeanSlab a kid. bla00:02:25.70Andrewyeah00:02:25.91SeanSlab a kid. Okay. Okay.00:02:27.67AndrewSlab a kid.00:02:29.37SeanThat's, uh,00:02:30.04AndrewThere's like all this funny, like, yeah, I feel like even more than some of the other YouTube shows I watch. it has very quickly, because I think he's only been doing it for a year or two, it has very quickly developed lore and, sort you know, it's its own terminology and everything.00:02:47.77SeanSure.00:02:52.03AndrewIt's funny.00:02:53.33SeanCool. Slab a kid. Okay. That is not what I thought you said. It's like sweaty boogers fucked up, man. It's almost as bad as as that Twitch streamer shocking his dog.00:03:08.04SeanOkay.00:03:05.09AndrewOh, fuck. I don't want to know about that. Don't don't tell me. i I would rather not.00:03:08.96SeanOkay. All right.00:03:10.83AndrewFuck that person is all i all I have to say.00:03:14.57AndrewI don't even know, but I don't need to know.00:03:17.61Seanokay yeah this is this is whoever's listening this is just a this is just an internet culture magic the gathering podcast now00:03:26.06AndrewOh, dude. If you want to just go deep on, like, our latest YouTube obsessions, I can i can do that any day. I've been getting really into, like,00:03:33.32Seanoh my latest youtube what is that what is00:03:35.26Andrewthe Caleb Heron world lately. He's a comedian based out of l a who's like, he is super progressive, but is from Kansas City and like grew up evangelical. And so I think he does a good job of making fun of like progressives and like the right and Caleb Heron I think is how you pronounce it h-e-a-r-o-n

Andrew saw Saturn through a telescope and launched MetaMonster's new UI, but users won't activate! 🔭 Getting 1-2 daily signups with zero engagement while testing Phantom Buster for LinkedIn scraping. Sean presents his Michelin star agency framework and they debate reviving Chart Juice as a ChatGPT app. Plus: why web design agencies might be better customers than SEO agencies.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.07SeanHowdy.00:02.27AndrewHi, hi, hi.00:03.52Seanand We've had so many false starts of season four, think.00:08.60AndrewYeah, is this not season eight? I thought we were on season eight now.00:11.73SeanYou're right, you're right, you're right. It was a limited series for the first but past four seasons.00:16.07AndrewOne, two episodes.00:17.93SeanYeah, yeah, yeah. It's like those those like which TV shows did in the middle of COVID, and you know? It's like, yeah, season's over. We'll just, yeah.00:25.89AndrewYeah. I feel like I haven't talked to you in forever, and you're... so busy now that you don't even respond to my slack messages00:35.68SeanSorry. Hold on. I don't like that you said those things together because you made it sound like I'm the reason we haven't talked in forever.00:43.15Andrewyou are no no no it's like 25 true i was gallivanting in the woods for two weeks so i was away from atlanta for a month uh i was00:43.93Seanwhich Which is 75% true. didn't realize you were going for two weeks. I thought you were and that you're only... how How was it? Whoa.00:59.42Seanwell01:00.47AndrewYeah, I went in cat sit for my parents for a week. I went to Washington for two weeks, hung out with friends, went backpacking, then rented a car and drove around the Olympic Peninsula by myself, which was fucking awesome.01:13.33SeanNice.01:14.15AndrewJumped in the Pacific Ocean, jumped in Alpine Lake, climbed some sketchy mountains, saw a ton of beautiful views, walked in the rainforest, saw Saturn through a telescope.01:25.43SeanWhoa. Whoa.01:26.43AndrewIt was, yeah!01:26.92SeanWhat?01:28.38AndrewI feel like that's the one I always mention last, and that's the one that people get most excited about.01:28.45SeanYou've been like on01:32.82SeanYeah. You've had like a whole secret life of Walter Mini situation in the past.01:33.96AndrewOne night, dude, it was great.01:37.56SeanUh-huh.01:38.45AndrewI made a friend hiking down a trail one day, and she was telling me that she'd just come from this campsite and was checking the little board at the campsite and saw that the rangers were doing a telescope night.01:51.67SeanRight.01:51.74AndrewAnd so she said it was great. It was super fun. So I went and stayed at that campsite the next night. and they were doing it again and it was awesome there were like 50 or 60 people who drove up to the top of the mountain and parked and were just like walking around in the dark because you can't have white light it ruins the ability to see through the the telescope and everything it you know dampens your night vision so there were like 50 or 60 strangers02:11.72Seanright02:19.55Andrewmilling around in the dark, just quietly chatting with each other, waiting in lines to look through telescopes. And they had four huge telescopes trained at different things in the night sky. And one of the things we got to see was Saturn.02:31.90AndrewIt was like a little little tiny little tiny Saturn. it was you know these These telescopes were not big enough to blow it up. yeah We weren't looking through the James Webb Space Telescope, but it was still really cool.02:39.31SeanSure.02:42.07SeanRight.02:43.74AndrewYou could see the rings.02:43.91SeanYeah.02:44.78AndrewIt's like, holy shit, that's planet.02:45.19SeanWhoa.02:48.54SeanCool. Nice.02:49.75AndrewYeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And then I was in San Diego for a week. So fully, fully my fault. there's There's at least a month in there that was fully my fault.03:01.06AndrewI'd had kind of aspirations of like, maybe I'll drive to a coffee shop and we should do like a podcast episode from a coffee shop on the Olympic Peninsula.03:01.41SeanOkay.03:10.62AndrewAnd yeah, no way that was happening.03:13.08Seanwe can We can split it fifty fifty It's both our faults.03:17.92SeanThat's cool. You ever think about like how like crazy it is that when human... like you know I understand, like okay, like you're like, oh, hey, there are things in the sky. I want to go look at things in the sky and tell magnifying glass exists. We keep stacking them. We can start to see things in the sky.03:33.30SeanAnd then just like the realization of, like oh, shit, there's more like giant balls of things out there.03:40.80AndrewThe thing that the always gets me is when I start t

Andrew doubles MetaMonster customers in one week and is launching credit-based free trials! 🚀 Sean's still drowning in Miscreants growth (by the way Miscreants is hiring). Plus: LinkedIn strategy shifts, AI acquisition dynamics, and Sean just figured out what "I have to charge" actually means.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00.83Seanwhats up?00:01.73AndrewHey, we back.00:01.83SeanWhere are you?00:03.17Andrewis this Is this the start of season? What season are we on? Season four?00:06.65SeanYeah, this is...00:06.70AndrewThis is season four, episode two.00:07.29Seanthis is00:08.18AndrewAre we going to bury episode one forever and make it our new Lost Tapes? Or are we going to, do you want me to release it? Make a decision right now?00:17.64Seanfeel like... It seems like you want to bury it so we can bury it.00:20.54AndrewYeah, kind of.00:21.32SeanYeah. Okay.00:22.37AndrewI feel like I just rambled for 30 minutes.00:22.55SeanYeah. We can bury it.00:24.88AndrewAnd I was also like, You definitely caught me on the downturn of the startup roller coaster like mental cycle. And i'm I'm feeling more positive this week.00:33.35Seanand00:35.37AndrewSo let's start on a good note.00:35.99SeanCool. There was no such thing as everyone. Cool. Done. Easy. Yeah. Great. How you doing? Where where are you? This is not the usual background.00:45.64AndrewI am it no, no. I'm in Columbia, South Carolina, cat sitting for my parents. My parents are jet setting around Europe, living their retired life to the fullest.00:52.21SeanNice.00:56.16SeanCool.00:57.40AndrewMy German aunt is getting remarried this week.01:01.31SeanSweet.01:01.43AndrewSo there went to London and then Amsterdam and then Germany. And then they're going to Denmark on a joint honeymoon with my aunt and her new husband.01:11.16SeanOkay.01:12.08AndrewYeah.01:14.89SeanJoint honeymoon. Cool. Okay.01:17.32Andrewyeah01:17.56SeanI've never heard that term like used before, but that makes sense.01:20.53AndrewIt's not real. Like they, they actually got married a few months ago and this is just like the wedding celebration.01:22.25SeanCool.01:25.98AndrewAnd so they just wanted to go on a weekend trip with my parents. And so I've been joking with my mom that she's going on Giese's honeymoon with her, but that's not really what's happening.01:30.24SeanCool.01:39.13AndrewI'm cat sitting, hanging out with Ruthie.01:38.82SeanCool.01:41.76SeanNice. Nice, nice.01:42.69AndrewYeah. My cat's got it.01:44.03SeanI'm going to a wedding.01:45.87AndrewHuh?01:46.59SeanI'm going to a wedding.01:47.80AndrewOh, fun.01:49.23SeanYeah, but tell about your cat first. What what about Ruthie?01:51.29AndrewOh, I was just going to say earlier this year, my mom got a, what she calls her resistance cat. cat's name is RBG, uh, and we call her Ruthie.01:58.81SeanOh, nice. Nice.02:00.38AndrewSo she's adorable. Big fan.02:02.45SeanCool. Oh, cool. Hope she also lives to like 90 something.02:06.11AndrewI hope so too.02:08.05SeanYeah, i'm going I'm going to like my first wedding ever because it's not even a wedding.02:12.32AndrewOh my God. How is this your first wedding? I've, I feel like I've been going to weddings nonstop for the last 10 years.02:21.16Seanmaybe this is the start to that.02:21.12AndrewMaybe this is like, maybe, yeah, we are different ages, which I forget often.02:24.29SeanYeah.02:28.09AndrewI'm old and getting older every day.02:29.42SeanYeah.02:32.45SeanYou don't look a day over 40, my friend.02:38.06Andrewi also wonder if it's partially a New York thing versus a like growing up in the Southeast thing. If my friends got married young.02:42.58SeanNo, just my asshole friends just don't like there's like fuck a wedding. We just got married and didn't tell you. And then and then like that's that's all.02:50.31AndrewTo be fair, that's kind of what I want to do. I think I i want to elope with just like parents and then and then throw a big ass party because I do not want to pay the wedding markup.02:53.65SeanSee. This is.02:58.78SeanNice.03:01.40AndrewI'm not about that life.03:01.77SeanYeah, fair. I think um fair. I think um this, these friends, he's a summer camp friend from like high school and just always kept in touch for years.03:09.81AndrewOh, no way. That's cool.03:12.25Seanloosely, loosely. They also got married in middle of COVID and they just never actually had like a wedding-esque party. So this isn't even, technically I've never been to it.03:22.42SeanWell, think my cousin got married when I was really young. So I think I've been there, but outside of like, actually as a brain functioning adult, like I've never seen people consummate their marriage or whatever the that's not what tha

Andrew moved to Atlanta and is going all-in on MetaMonster while Sean drowns in Miscreants sales calls! 🚀 They dive into repositioning struggles, the push vs pull dilemma, and why lead magnets might be the answer. Plus: DEF CON madness, Webflow disasters, and someone made an AI review of MetaMonster.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00.50SeanWhat's up?00:02.12AndrewWhat up, man?00:02.99SeanLong time. Yeah.00:04.19AndrewHas been a long time. When was the last one of these we did? Like, at least six weeks ago.00:08.07SeanThe last... I think the last one we did, you interviewed someone else. I was replaced.00:12.88AndrewOh, with Louie. OK.00:14.20SeanYeah. Yeah. That was good one. That good.00:16.73AndrewYeah, that was fun.00:17.87SeanYeah.00:19.34AndrewIt has horrible ah ah stats on Transistor. I haven't checked the YouTube stats.00:24.88SeanOh. but They just like me. You know? They...00:28.93AndrewLet's see.00:30.81AndrewLet's see, let's see. What? Has anyone listened to this?00:36.56SeanYou know we got 51.00:36.86AndrewOh, wow.00:37.08SeanUh-huh.00:38.26Andrewoh wow. Our latest videos are not doing well. But to be fair,00:44.08SeanInternally.00:44.66Andrewyeah that episode, lol, I heard heard our autoplay video.00:45.51SeanMm-hmm.00:49.74SeanOh.00:51.90Andrew43 whole views on on that that episode.00:55.21SeanNot bad. Yeah.00:58.62AndrewWe're we're killing it.01:00.08SeanYeah. ah But we got 51 subscribers, so, like, i don't know.01:05.20AndrewDo we really?01:06.10SeanYeah, 51 subscribers on YouTube.01:08.78AndrewThis is not going to be interesting to anyone listening. Like, we're the only ones who give a fuck how many YouTube subscribers we have.01:11.100SeanYeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sorry everyone.01:15.36AndrewAlso, 50 is such a silly number.01:17.60SeanYeah.01:19.98AndrewYeah.01:20.46SeanCan't wait for my 50 subscriber YouTube play button.01:23.16SeanIt's a cardboard with a little poop stain on it.01:30.36AndrewYeah, a lot has changed since we last chatted and also not a lot has changed.01:33.88SeanMm-hmm.01:35.94AndrewI am now living in Atlanta.01:39.28SeanAnd you're leaving me.01:41.66Andrewand Well, just like we're not breaking up.01:43.04SeanWe're breaking up.01:45.78AndrewWe're going on a break. It's different.01:47.22Seanwow Can I see other people?01:50.18AndrewYeah, sure.01:52.08SeanWe're breaking up. We're broken up. It's okay. It's okay. I'm happy for you. Anything I'm jealous.01:57.43Andrewyeah so I'm living in Atlanta. I was, I working with scout last time we talked. to02:03.08SeanNot on the podcast, I think.02:05.94AndrewOkay.02:06.60SeanYeah.02:07.80AndrewI have a new client. it's been a lot of fun. They're in, uh, you an AI agent platform for sales teams.02:15.37SeanYeah.02:16.28Andrewand, uh, I'm basically a fractional CMO, which has been really fun. So I'm like, you hiring agencies and contractors and building marketing processes and trying to figure out how to, how to drive leads.02:30.29Andrewgot to bring in a friends agency. That's going super well. metamonster like, it's not like not going at all. Like I'm having it a couple of conversations a week probably, but, uh, they are not turning into customers. So,02:49.04Andrewgotta figure some shit out there which is why i'm talking about taking a break from miscreants work for a little while to focus on metamonster yeah i don't know where do you want to start03:02.24SeanLet's start, I mean, I don't know, let's talk about MetaMonster. Let's talk about like i feel like, I feel like we're chatting on Slack about like, you know, lead magnets and whether or not you have to nurture folks, you know, it feels like the people that are but you're speaking to are like interested but not ready to like buy or try.03:20.75Seanare they Are they like, are you giving them a trial or03:24.94AndrewYeah, so03:27.06Andrewwe... Okay, so since we last spoke, we updated the Metamonster positioning. So we were calling ourselves like an SEO web crawler and sort of a ah ah site audit tool.03:34.32SeanMm-hmm.03:42.18AndrewWe've tried to move away from that to more of like an SEO automation platform. our new so our new h one um scale on page seo optimization with ai and we're trying to sort of position ourselves against like chat gpt and manual processes and you know we didn't we didn't go for like a category because i don't know that ah seo automation platform is like an established category today so i wasn't i wasn't sure that would be widely recognized enough to resonate with people so we04:18.45SeanYeah.04:19.95Andrewsort of just have this like use case positioning and then we talk you know ah try to position ourselves against like doing seo work manually in with li

We've got a special guest on the pod today! Louis from Sparkloop joins to share how they evolved from referrals to recommendations and sold to Kit! 🚀 Meanwhile Andrew gets Louis's take on MetaMonster's positioning struggles and they debate how and why the SaaS landscape is changing. Plus: the most detailed rom-com ranking you've ever heard, featuring hidden gems and heated debates about classics.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Louis's Twitter: @louisnicholls_Sparkloop (newsletter recommendations platform): https://sparkloop.app/Grow your newsletter: https://www.growmynewsletter.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:01.03AndrewHey, what's up, man?00:00:02.44LouisHey man, how's it going? It's been a while.00:00:04.43AndrewIt has. Astute listeners might notice that you are not Sean Sun, founder of Miscreants. Do you want to introduce yourself real quick?00:00:13.90LouisYeah, my name Louis. I am the co-founder of Sparkloop. I'm a huge rom-com enthusiast, which I think we're going to get to later. and00:00:23.11AndrewHell yeah.00:00:24.25LouisI guess I'm a probably more of like a reformed indie hacker. People might know me from that, but more likely nowadays, if you're a newsletter nerd in the newsletter space, you probably have come across Sparkloop or maybe seen me online or something like that.00:00:41.21AndrewReformed. Does that mean you don't identify as an indie hacker anymore?00:00:44.76LouisOh, no, no, I do. I just don't hang out in the as much in like the IndieHack bootstrap founder space anymore. my My Twitter and LinkedIn have been taken over by self-interested business interests of talking about newsletters, which is a lot more lucrative.00:00:51.89AndrewYeah.00:00:59.73LouisYeah.00:00:59.94AndrewYeah. So, okay. How long ago now did you sell Sparkloop? How long has it been?00:01:06.67LouisWe sold just over two years ago. We were bought by then ConvertKit, now Kit, which I think we...00:01:10.16AndrewOkay.00:01:14.78LouisDid we talk about this shortly before or shortly? Maybe we met shortly after, actually, I think.00:01:19.18AndrewI think both.00:01:20.17AndrewI think we, you and i met in New York. I was working for Grey Noise at the time. And you told me, i don't remember if you actually told me it was ConvertKit. I think you told me you were like considering an acquisition and that there was some stuff in the works.00:01:31.86LouisHmm.00:01:33.80AndrewAnd then I think we hung out again, last year sometime after you'd sold to ConvertKit, when I was like starting to, oh yeah, because like last December, you and i were actually talking about like maybe collabing on some stuff.00:01:48.50LouisYeah.00:01:49.80LouisYeah, yeah,00:01:50.82AndrewI quoted you some ridiculously high number to do something. I don't even remember what exactly. like I think some of the like personal brand stuff that you've started doing, was going to help with some of that maybe.00:02:01.79Louisyeah. Mm-hmm.00:02:03.39AndrewAnd then then, yeah, I think I probably talked to you to just like ask you for some startup advice at some point, which I'm now doing again under the guise of having you on as a podcast guest.00:02:15.33LouisIt's the the best way to do it. i yeah I remember we were, i think the last time we properly talked was actually not about about this startup at all. It was about the in-email charts thing, I think, was the last time we had like a proper long conversation.00:02:33.24AndrewYeah, good memory. I'm impressed that you remember what it even was. Yeah, that was ChartJuice. was I think at the time it was probably ChartKit.00:02:42.64LouisMm-hmm.00:02:43.87AndrewAnd then had a co-founder, he left, and he owned the domain, so I bought chartjuice.com. And then...00:02:54.82AndrewBuilt it, probably shouldn't have ever built it. Like, I don't think it was like ever really a great market. But I did the classic indie hacker thing where I was like, I kind of just want to build something and I wanted to learn to code again.00:03:08.23AndrewAnd Chart Juice felt very like not intimidating. It felt easy to build. And so I spent a few months building it, launched it to Crickets and then was like, all right, I need to actually build something that I think people will buy now And so, yeah.00:03:22.97LouisAlways a oh it a good idea. I wish you had, with a name like Chart Juice, it wasn't called Chart Juice at the time, but a name like Chart Juice, that deserves to be a podcast growth agency.00:03:30.27AndrewYeah.00:03:35.87LouisThere should be a podcast growth agency called Chart Juice out there.00:03:39.11AndrewHonestly, that is so true. Someone has like a, someone has a oh, it's, it's a productized service that will submit your startup to a bunch of directories.00:03:54.29AndrewAnd it's called like submit juice or something like that.00:03:54.53Louissee00:03:57.23LouisI don'

Sean survives on 1.5 hours of sleep while juggling Black Hat submissions and client launches! 😴 Andrew discovers a new MetaMonster content strategy and shows off the new grid UI that's generating page titles and scoring them for engagement. Plus: should you delegate your therapy homework to Claude (hint: no), auth provider decision paralysis, and why internal linking breaks the table concept.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00.81SeanOh, you stopped.00:03.40AndrewYeah, that would be the most obnoxious sound in the world. I was doing the, like, little kid exasperated sound.00:10.45SeanYeah, yeah. What is that? What do you, what do you, how do you, like, what is the English phrase for that?00:16.64Andrewhave no fucking clue.00:17.80SeanIt's not like rolling your R's, but it's like blubbering.00:21.54AndrewIt's like flapping your lips. I don't know.00:23.97SeanI guess.00:23.99AndrewI was doing this. Pfft.00:26.94SeanThat's a thumbnail.00:28.02AndrewOh, God.00:28.21SeanThat's good.00:28.89AndrewJesus.00:32.72SeanThat's a good thumbnail. I'm going to have Jonah try that out. We'll see how it performs.00:36.82AndrewTry what?00:37.93SeanYou just blubbered.00:40.08AndrewPlease no.00:40.97SeanOkay.00:43.70SeanHow you doing? how's how's How's it going?00:48.00AndrewI'm good. I just pushed out a YouTube video, LinkedIn video for Metamonster.00:54.94SeanNice.00:55.68Andrewi I think this is maybe going to be a ah new tactic is I saw um like an SEO influencer type share something about how AI overviews really like structured schema.01:12.35AndrewAnd so I was like, dope. I'm going to go write a prompt to create structured schema in the new MetaMonster UI, record myself doing it, tag this person in the post,01:22.19SeanCool.01:24.43SeanSick.01:24.60Andrewand like shout them out in the video. And then did comment on my post. i don't yeah know They didn't share it or anything, but they commented on my post.01:30.77SeanSick.01:33.39AndrewAnd so that was kind of cool. And I'm like, I think this is probably a good tactic to follow is just like take the things that people are talking about and just record short videos showing how you can use MetaMonster to execute on them.01:38.71SeanYeah, 100%.01:47.17SeanYeah, all all of that makes perfect sense. that like01:49.42AndrewYeah.01:50.67Seanthat That feels like exactly what to do to grow Metamonster.01:54.27AndrewYeah. Yeah.01:55.81SeanIn fact, I would not be surprised if that was the way grew your user base to your first 500 to 1,000 this point. Yet, yet, to to ah thousand at this point so02:06.85AndrewMaybe. i mean, no one is watching, like, our videos aren't getting any, yeah, any views.02:09.98Seanyes yet yeah02:12.87AndrewAnd, like, my like LinkedIn, most of the people liking my LinkedIn posts about Metamonster have been, like, my friends. So I haven't gotten, yeah.02:22.08Seanyet yeah i think you need you need one you know ah ah you need like02:26.86AndrewYeah, you need one to go viral-ish in the SEO world. And you need, yeah, I just need to stick with it and...02:33.43Seanyeah plus i mean the content just gets reused so for the blog anyway or or the website anyway so yeah um i absolutely yeah but that sounds perfectly correct to me that's02:45.76AndrewYeah. I also, um i so I recorded this one today with Screen Studio, was fun to play around with. I like some parts of it a lot. I found myself really wishing, though, that it would generate a transcript like Loom does.02:59.46Andrewcan probably use, like, a transcript generator. I can just find something like that. But the reason is, i have gotten alex from like Lex like Lex.page set up pretty well.03:12.97Andrewprobably do it in Claude too. But I've got it generating pretty good marketing emails based off of video transcripts. And so it's been like a really nice way to like just, you know, reuse content as I record the video.03:30.97AndrewAnd then I upload the transcript to Lex and I have Lex generate a, generate a marketing email, I edit that email, and then I copy it over to loops and send it out to the Metamonster list.03:47.74AndrewSo I've also been thinking about playing around with some of the automation tools to see if I could actually automate that whole flow.03:50.05SeanCool.03:56.02AndrewAnd it would still be, like, human in the loop because I want to edit it before it goes into loops.04:00.35SeanYeah.04:00.43AndrewBut, like, even if it created it as a draft in loops, I could then go to loops and edit it there.04:04.58SeanYeah. 100%. 100.04:08.89Seanhundred percent and04:10.32AndrewSo...04:12.64SeanYeah, 100%. um I always, well, okay. Sorry, 100%, you can do that. I always struggle with the idea of doing that becaus

Pre-Black Hat crunch time hits Miscreants hard as brand audits pile up and Webflow goes down for half a day. Andrew's new MetaMonster grid shows AI's bipolar nature - brilliant one moment, baffling the next. 🤖 Plus: positioning challenges, category creation in the AI era, and why Poboy the cat makes a terrible hide-and-seek player.Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.03SeanWhat's up?00:02.39AndrewYour energy is different after we hit record than it was before.00:06.79SeanI know, I gotta turn it on I gotta turn on for the podcast.00:10.99AndrewWhat's going on, man?00:12.23SeanI can't believe we both just went like double peace signs on an audio podcast, by the way.00:12.40Andrewyou're a00:17.63AndrewWe have video now, Sean.00:19.07SeanWe do, we do, and do. We have great intros.00:20.91AndrewIf if somebody would ever approve the latest videos to go live, then we would have even more video.00:27.34SeanYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. that sounds like That sounds like a job for someone.00:33.60AndrewOh, hey, we have a new episode up.00:34.09Seanand00:36.53AndrewSomeone finally approved something.00:36.57SeanYeah. Yeah. I'm working on it.00:40.65AndrewAll right.00:40.64SeanI'm doing it. It just sounds like a job for someone who doesn't have 30 hours of meetings a week right now. So...00:46.70AndrewJesus Christ. Yeah, I'm not going to lie I've been trying to meet with you and JJ at the same time lately and trying to find overlap where neither of you has a meeting is almost impossible.01:00.43Seanit is It is pretty much impossible.01:00.69AndrewOh, boy, you sure you want to go out? Can we pause real quick?01:05.95SeanYeah, sure. OK, we'll come back. No problem.01:09.12AndrewThank you, thank you. Po'boy wanted out of the office, but also Wally, guy who works on our house, over. And so then Po'boy was immediately terrified and regretted his choice to leave the office and ran and hid under the covers of the bed.01:26.62SeanGotcha.01:27.14AndrewIt's pretty funny and kind of adorable. Like when our cat wants to hide from something, he just hides under the covers and it's like the most obvious lump in the entire world. So it's a completely ineffective hiding place, but he feels safe because he can't see anything.01:42.68SeanLook, man, if I can't see you, you can't see me. That's how it works.01:45.72AndrewHe's an adorable, dumb little fuckhead and I appreciate him.01:46.52SeanThat's01:52.19Seanthe...01:53.48AndrewYeah. Yeah, yeah. Trying to get time on your calendar right now is tough.01:58.27Seanyeah Yeah, same. Me too. It's like you start the day with yesterday's to-do list, you have a bunch of meetings, and you end the day with a new compounded to-do list, and then02:11.16AndrewSo what's going on? I thought i thought you were like removing yourself from a lot of client work. And yeah, what are all these meetings?02:18.30Seanah so i am ish but i also am not because it's pre-blackhat crunch time and i really have like i think i need to be there like to help you just get things across the finish line we launched a site last week we just launched a site that today we launched a site like the week before we're another monthly sprint to launch like two more sites02:45.30SeanYeah. Plus every single client wants a brand audit because, you know, they work with us at the early stage. We built, we built them a brand. It works really well for the first phase and they all reach a point where like they need to advance it, which is fine. It's normal. It happens with every single client. They just all consolidated onto the same last couple of weeks.03:07.59AndrewInteresting.03:07.84SeanSo03:08.03AndrewSo you're actually doing a brand audit of your own branding work?03:11.43Seanyes.03:12.20AndrewHuh. That's kind of cool.03:13.24SeanYes. Yeah. Well, it's because like...03:18.53AndrewSort of seems like a racket, but...03:22.74SeanFair. Fair. I mean, it's not like we're charging for them. So it's part of the retainer.03:26.12AndrewWait, why are you not charging for them?03:27.78SeanIt's part of the retainer. It's part of...03:29.03AndrewOh, okay, okay, okay, okay.03:29.02SeanIt's, its you know...03:30.39Andrewokay03:30.35SeanYeah, yeah, yeah.03:30.90AndrewYeah, yeah, yeah.03:32.56SeanIt's like it's time to evolve.03:33.04AndrewYou're charging for them, but you're not charging separately for them.03:36.84SeanYeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.03:37.60AndrewOkay. Okay.03:38.75SeanSo it's like half a racket. No, it's, it's ah a you know, when you are in early stage company, you are asking for very specific things to get you up and running, right?03:48.30AndrewYeah.03:49.09Seanand And over, you know, a year or so as you grow, like, lore gets built about

Fresh from a techno festival, Andrew's planning an escape to Lion's Head National Park in Canada while working through therapy insights about procrastination. 🏕️ Plus he's thinking about how to reposition MetaMonster away from tools that might be seen as cheap. Meanwhile Sean's juggling multiple client launches and working on mapping the security operations of a bank to help other people on the Miscreants team understand what it's like to work in a security org. Also: Ferrari shots, cognitive distortions, and landing new clients!Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.05Andrewnot much got a got a new haircut went to a rave this weekend not really a rave the movement festival the like big techno festival that happens in detroit every year was this weekend so uh we last year went for the first time got a one day ticket one day is all my old man old man ass can handle so00:04.76SeanYeah, what's fresh? How was that? Who did you see?00:14.70SeanCool.00:25.98SeanAre you a techno guy? Are you?00:27.81AndrewNo, not really. I like house better than techno, but Detroit is the birthplace of techno.00:28.71SeanOh, okay. Gotcha. I00:34.22AndrewSo yeah.00:35.31Seani didn't know that. And yeah also the birthplace of Eminem.00:38.87AndrewAnd i'm a I'm a Detroit guy. So big Detroit guy.00:40.85SeanYeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.00:44.76AndrewYeah, it was fun.00:45.52SeanYeah.00:46.53AndrewI could not tell you who we saw. I have no fucking clue what any of their names were.00:50.17SeanOkay.00:51.79Andrewi was just there vibing and dancing.00:54.88SeanCool. you Did you partake like many techno folks tend to?00:59.05AndrewNot this year. No.01:00.38SeanI see. I see.01:01.08AndrewNah, we were just... I had... I, you know, sipped on a few seltzers. Had a...01:06.13SeanNice.01:07.04AndrewHad a Ferrari shot before we left.01:09.49SeanWhat is a Ferrari shot?01:10.94AndrewA Ferrari shot is equal parts for Nett and Campari. For... Ari.01:16.49SeanCool. like01:17.37AndrewYeah. It's like...01:20.58SeanDo you like Frenet?01:20.71Andrewi feel... I don't know.01:21.50SeanAre you a Frenet person?01:24.71Andrewi01:25.07SeanOh. Interesting.01:25.68AndrewI want to be a Furnette person. i love Amari. And my cocktail nerd friends generally like Furnette. And it's a Furnette shot is called a bartender's handshake because it's apparently a big like industry thing where you're like, you know, start, start your shift or something with a shot of Furnette.01:35.35SeanInteresting.01:42.16SeanMm-hmm. Mm-hmm.01:46.36AndrewAnd so I feel like, like that just sounds so cool. Like a bartender's handshake. Like that sounds so cool. And like, I'm never going to be a real bartender, but I can at least learn to like for net.01:57.22AndrewI like it better.01:57.21SeanOh,01:59.49Andrewit it just, it can overpower things and tastes like toothpaste. So I like, I prefer it with other things. I really want to try the I found out the most popular cocktail in like Argentina is a for net and Coke.02:17.32Seanoh interesting.02:18.68AndrewSo yeah, it sounds really weird.02:18.85SeanNow want02:21.05AndrewI want to try it.02:22.31Seanyeah i hear uh i hear fernet was like popular in sf for a bit it's a big sf people drink yeah yeah i don't mind it it's not bad yeah i would like to try fernet and diet coke that feels yeah well fernet diet coke break with the the cigarette02:26.88AndrewI can see that. It seems like a SF hipster thing.02:39.81AndrewYeah. Yeah.02:44.25AndrewKind of like a Calimocho. Have you ever heard of that?02:48.67SeanNo, no, you know more about cocktails than I do.02:49.83AndrewCalimocho is like the... My friends in Spain told me it's like kind of a college kid drink, but it's red wine and Coke.03:02.87SeanYou know what's really good that people are going to think is this guy? Red wine and Sprite.03:07.24AndrewOh, yeah, yeah. They call that Tinto de Verano. Yeah.03:09.90SeanOh, no, none of my ideas are original.03:11.03AndrewYeah.03:12.70SeanI see.03:12.87AndrewYeah, red wine and either like some sort of citrus soda.03:13.06SeanOkay.03:16.34AndrewSo often it's like a sparkling lemonade or a Sprite or something like that.03:17.18SeanHmm.03:21.28AndrewIt's kind of like, you know, poor man's sangria. If you don't have like fruit and don't want to do a whole like put all the work into making a sangria, just have a Tinto de Verano.03:25.45SeanYeah.03:32.24SeanYeah. Nice.03:34.34AndrewWe drank a bunch of them on the Camino.03:34.38SeanCool. Speaking of the Camino, you're going on your next trip.03:41.14Andrewyeah uh if i can get this fucking newsletter out then i will be leaving to go up to canada for a three-day backpacking trip with maddie at lion's head national park it

Andrew and Sean talk about hiring tools, positioning MetaMonster, and Andrew's struggles to increase his publishing velocity. Meanwhile, Sean is slammed with inbound after RSA, is putting project management systems in place for Margins, and just got a pool table! Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/Apply to Miscreants: https://tally.so/r/nrWOlNFor more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.27SeanWhat's up?00:02.35AndrewNot much, just digging through job applications for this senior product designer role.00:07.89SeanYeah. Yeah.00:09.34Andrewit00:09.45SeanHow's that going? Do you like it?00:10.30AndrewIt really makes me want to build an ATS.00:12.75SeanYeah.00:14.07Andrewi I looked at Home Run again, and00:15.97SeanUh-huh.00:20.47Andrewit's gone up to, like, their base price starts at, I think, $90 a month or something like that. and JJ has essentially built a, an Excel Google sheets, ATS, uh, which is solid.00:34.46AndrewIt's, it's not bad at all.00:34.71SeanMm-hmm. Mm-hmm.00:36.55AndrewI think the email automation stuff she's been trying to do isn't working yet. then I have spent a chunk of today trying to figure out how to run a script inside of Google sheets that'll,00:50.78Andrewintegrate with an AI detection API because so many of these applications are so clearly just copy and pasted from ChatGPT and not actual applications.01:00.49SeanI see. I see.01:02.97AndrewYeah.01:03.27SeanYou can use GPT for sheets.01:03.42AndrewWhich01:06.08SeanAnd then...01:07.03Andrewdo you think how how good is ChatGPT at detecting itself?01:12.38SeanI think if you give it a rubric, it it's good. Because, like...01:15.84AndrewI don't know if I know enough to give it a good rubric.01:18.86Seancan give you my, like... You know, it's not a rubric. It's just like, hey, generate this blog post. Don't use these words. Don't use this phrasing. Don't...01:27.51AndrewYeah, and you could try to kind of reverse that rubric.01:30.27SeanYeah, yeah.01:30.85AndrewYeah.01:31.58SeanGod, that's funny.01:33.39AndrewYeah. And, like, there's there's, like, a small part of me that is, like, well, you know, I don't...01:35.17SeanYeah.01:42.50AndrewI don't have a problem with you using ChatGPT to help you write your application. But if you're clearly just like, if it's 100% copy and pasted from ChatGPT, then I have no way of knowing if it's legit information or not, or if you're just completely bullshitting.01:53.80SeanYeah.01:58.15AndrewLike, I got several answers to the same question that seemed almost identical.01:58.74SeanYeah.02:04.19AndrewAnd I was like, hmm, okay, so this isn't a real life experience you had then probably.02:08.60SeanYeah, I bet. That's so funny. I bet there's like apps now also like apply with AI like one click and then it just generates that stuff.02:16.65AndrewOh, I'm sure there are. yeah Yeah, so I mean, I think part of it is...02:20.17SeanHow would you build an ATS differently? Let's build a bit sauce.02:27.31AndrewLike, I think it's an area where I would try to compete on price because ATS systems tend to be pretty fucking expensive. And so I think if you tried to be a fairly minimal, simple version that was at more of an entry level price, I think that's like step one.02:43.52AndrewNow, the shitty part is to build even a simple ATS. You're basically building a CRM, an email marketing system, and a form builder all in one. and like kind of a website builder too.02:54.26SeanYeah. Yeah.02:56.31AndrewSo it's it's not a simple product.02:59.09SeanHmm.02:59.43AndrewSo I totally understand why they're expensive. But I still think ah ah most of that is sunk cost, not like ongoing cost.03:10.24SeanYeah. Definitely03:10.80AndrewI don't think they're that expensive to operate. Just you know there's a high barrier to entry to build you the base features you need.03:14.24Seannot.03:20.98SeanHmm.03:22.20AndrewSo I think I'd do some of that. i think I would also, think it could be really interesting. Like I've always been interested in salary transparency and stuff like that.03:31.98AndrewSo I think it could be interesting to try to do some like, try to talk people into doing some data sharing around salaries and stuff like that.03:40.80SeanMm-hmm.03:41.87Andrewon both sides of the equation. i think it would be cool to build in, know, some, I remember when we, I know,03:52.68Andrewwhen we were trying to care about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and like learn about it, part of what people said you should do is like serve like conduct anonymous surveys to determine you know try to determine if there's what bias there is in your application process and like you know some people say you should hide names from applications and stuff like that and i yeah that kind of stuff04:25.0

Whoops! Our last recording got botched halfway through and only Andrew's audio was saved. So we recapped what we talked about in the last podcast and got into some new stuff in today's episode. Sean is back from his busiest RSA yet and growing Miscreants like crazy! In fact, they're growing so fast that Andrew is hiring a full-time product designer to join the Miscreants team. Meanwhile Andrew is also rebuilding MetaMonster from the ground up (well, Austin is) and thinking about how to build products with AI at the core instead of just tacking it on. The guys talk about the Vercel AI SDK, the value of time in market when growing an agency, Sean's progress on his new Margins product, and more. Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:01.81AndrewYo, so funny reason that I was late to this podcast recording. I was distracted trying to write a job description for the miscreants product designer role that we're trying to fill.00:00:13.82Seanyeah.00:00:17.66SeanThat's true. You want to write the other ones, by the way? trying to hire like three more roles at this point. Yeah.00:00:24.94AndrewThat's nuts, man. Hey, actually, i was going to put in here.00:00:26.23SeanI'm00:00:28.46AndrewHow many people have you hired in the last year?00:00:31.76SeanI don't fucking know. I don't know, man. I can't.00:00:34.90AndrewIf you had to guess, like, give me give me a number.00:00:37.42SeanIn the past year,00:00:41.08Seanfive, six.00:00:42.96AndrewI guess six. So I'm just going to leave it as six.00:00:44.50SeanYeah. Okay. to fire Yeah, we've hired so many full-time.00:00:50.71AndrewOr should I say, like, we've grown the team by 50% or something like that?00:00:55.02SeanSure. Yeah, we've grown the team by 50%. It sounds way better.00:00:58.97AndrewYeah.00:00:58.92SeanWe've doubled in size. we're about to double the fucking team again at this point i think i like said on a call that jj heard where i was like yeah like we're trying to be like you know 25 30 people by the end of the year and she so yeah that was her reaction don't know00:01:10.57AndrewYeah.00:01:15.03AndrewI'm sorry. What?00:01:19.88AndrewI wonder why. i wonder why your COO would be is shocked to hear you want to triple it in size by the end of the year.00:01:27.88SeanYeah, yeah, but this was, you know, it's not triple in size. It's six times in size because just kind of said it00:01:36.66Seanlast year. ah home or or like the beginning. I think I said in the beginning of the year. i mean, I don't know. Inbound has been good. Inbound has continued to be really good.00:01:47.89SeanRSA was really good. So it just has kind of kept growing. and It was i was kind of said not in jest, but in hyperbole.00:01:59.66SeanIt was hyperbolic. I feel a little less hyperbolic at the moment.00:02:00.98AndrewYeah. I will say...00:02:06.94AndrewI will say always thought that like 20 to 30 people would be kind of the perfect size for an agency because at least for us, it was big enough that we could have enough clients to that.00:02:14.82SeanMm-hmm.00:02:22.91AndrewLike if we lost a client or two, it wouldn't be like 20% of our revenue, 30% of our revenue.00:02:27.42SeanYep.00:02:28.04AndrewLike it would be a smaller chunk. It would be,00:02:30.23SeanYeah.00:02:30.70AndrewYou know, we could have a good manageable number of clients. It was still small enough that you wouldn't have a whole lot of process or red tape. It would still be pretty flexible, pretty collaborative.00:02:40.12SeanYeah.00:02:41.74Andrewand And also big enough that, like, if you lose an employee, like if ah if an employee takes a new job, you weren't losing, like, you know, when we sold Crit, we were six full-time people, 10 including part-time.00:02:47.89SeanMm-hmm.00:02:53.71AndrewAnd so if we lost one person, like one full-time person, that was, you know,00:02:54.21SeanMm-hmm.00:02:58.47SeanIt hurts.00:02:59.71Andrew20% of our full-time workforce.00:03:01.87SeanYeah.00:03:03.66AndrewThat's brutal.00:03:05.33SeanYeah.00:03:06.87AndrewSo I do think that's a good size. Now, would you want to stop there? Because you are more ambitious than I am, probably.00:03:14.82SeanI am i am greed personified. Yeah. I mean, when when the years started, i like one of the exercises I did with JJ was that we sort of mapped out what a 20-5 to 30-person agency would look like.00:03:30.21AndrewYeah, I remember this.00:03:30.53Seanyou know with yeah yeah and Yeah, I think maybe I showed you as well that org chart.00:03:34.35AndrewYeah.00:03:36.49SeanI mean, I think agency-wise, I'd probably stop there. I'm saying probably, i don't know, give it like six more months, I'll let you know.00:03:46.79SeanI can't, i think i i I think I can't fa

Andrew is in Atlanta visiting friends and continuing to think about how to best integrate more AI features into MetaMonster to make the product stickier. Sean had his first demo of Margins and... everything broke! But that's okay!Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00.93SeanThis is a new background. Where are you?00:07.44AndrewOh, you can tell how well my brain is working today. Good Lord.00:11.24SeanYeah.00:12.58Andrewi am staying with one of my college roommates in Atlanta. And after four years away from the South, my body has apparently completely forgotten how to function in a land of like pollen and pollinators. Every time I come to the South now, it's like the first three days I'm here.00:30.46AndrewMy nose is just like, fuck you, dude. So... Yeah, that's where I am. Check out my sweete my suite setup. I've got my suitcase with a couple books on it.00:38.71SeanAmazing.00:41.60SeanAmazing.00:42.00AndrewLittle, know, who needs a fancy stand-up desk when you've got a suitcase desk?00:46.59SeanYeah.00:49.28SeanYou can just record things. You can just do things.00:52.52AndrewYou know, don't have the fancy mic today.00:52.93SeanYeah.00:55.88SeanYep.00:56.28Andrewknow, the MacBook microphone is shockingly decent, maybe.01:03.40SeanYeah, your audio level is better than mine for what it's worth. So maybe should just swap. Maybe I should just... Yeah.01:11.52AndrewDude, it's all it's all an illusion. It's all just, like, stuff.01:14.81SeanExactly.01:16.03AndrewAnd you don't need the stuff to do things. You can just do the things without the stuff.01:21.45SeanYeah. You just record it your vlog and on an iPhone and put on the internet. You might get a couple hundred thousand subscribers that way.01:28.08AndrewWas it...01:29.24SeanThat's the Jackie Cho way.01:30.69AndrewI just heard the other day that... Dude, do you remember Call Me Maybe?01:36.79AndrewThe song? The, like, pop song?01:38.33SeanYeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right.01:40.12AndrewThat was recorded on a MacBook.01:43.03SeanWhoa.01:44.15AndrewBut yeah, that was recorded on a MacBook, like on iMovie.01:44.89SeanThat's sick. That's I didn't know that. but That's crazy.01:48.59AndrewIt was just like them holding a MacBook.01:51.86SeanI think have you heard Here With Me by David?01:58.63AndrewNo.02:00.87AndrewUh-huh.02:02.46SeanI think that guy did it on his like iPhone. With like an iPhone like digital audio workstation and just cut it up.02:10.33AndrewThat's sick.02:11.29SeanIt's pretty crazy.02:12.11AndrewThat's wild.02:12.22SeanI don't know. Kids these days, man.02:14.27AndrewThere really are no excuses. Yeah. yeah I think we might have a little bit of lag.02:18.70SeanYeah.02:20.30AndrewIt feels like we're lagging a little bit.02:22.62SeanOh, definitely. We definitely are lagging a little bit. Yeah.02:25.65AndrewOkay.02:26.21SeanOh, well, all right, if you're listening, we're sorry.02:26.53AndrewWell.02:29.21SeanWell, we'll do better.02:29.98AndrewYeah.02:30.48Seannot Not this week or next week. I'm traveling next week, so I will also have, I'll be on hotel Wi-Fi.02:34.68AndrewYeah. Also...02:39.24AndrewYeah. Zincaster's pretty good, though, at, like, cutting out pauses, so maybe there will be no lag to the user.02:40.21SeanYeah.02:45.18AndrewIt's just lag to us.02:47.08SeanMaybe, yeah.02:48.11AndrewUser, listener, what call this? Yeah. Okay.02:51.26SeanI don't know, people, friends.02:51.45AndrewAlright. What's going on with you? what's What's going on in Miscreants land?02:56.98SeanI don't know, man. Giant tax bill.03:00.15AndrewOh, yeah.03:01.44SeanThat's...03:01.85AndrewYeah. Sucks making money, huh?03:03.93SeanI know. It's the worst. i03:06.12Andrewthe03:06.64SeanLife is so much easier.03:06.85AndrewIt's so hard to be profitable.03:08.97SeanYeah. yeah Especially if all of our profits just went into last year's taxes. No, it's it's it's like...03:14.28Andrewnot all of your ta Not all of your profits went into last year's taxes.03:17.34SeanAll all of our profit this year so far are paying off the taxes from last year.03:24.24AndrewOkay, that's very different. This year so far is a quarter of the year.03:26.02SeanFor sure.03:28.38SeanFor sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. Yeah. and it's it's It's good. It's fine. We will just have more taxes to pay next year. And it'll just be this.03:36.53AndrewYeah.03:37.43SeanYeah.03:38.44AndrewOkay, wait.03:39.24AndrewControversial topic.03:40.69SeanYeah.03:41.17AndrewDo you pay estimated taxes?03:43.81SeanI would like to. hi03:46.39AndrewSo, no.03:46.59SeanYeah. I would like to. We don't.03:49.77AndrewI don't pay estimated taxes, and I don't currently have plans to start paying estimated taxes.03:55.40Seanwhy don't you h

Andrew and Sean have a bet to see who can write the best cold email copy for MetaMonster, and early results are in. Sean has a name and domain for his new product - Margins and is letting the Miscreants team handle the branding. Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Margins: http://margins.so/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:01.15SeanWhat up, what up, what up?00:02.64AndrewI got some stats for you.00:04.12SeanYeah, tell me. Hit me. but yeah We should probably give some context first.00:08.26AndrewAll right. So Thursday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, some night, there was a night last week when, I lured Sean into giving me a bunch of free consulting advice, in under the pretense of let's cowork and like work on things side by side.00:11.90SeanI don't know. I can't remember. One of the nights. Uh-huh.00:26.76AndrewAnd instead I just like for three hours was like, what do you think about this cold email idea? What do you think about this cold email idea?00:34.37SeanWe co-worked. We co-worked on your cold emails. You didn't lie to me.00:41.45AndrewFair, fair. I'll take it. I'll take it. So got some cold emails spun up. I knew this was something I wanted to do again now that the product was live. And it's early, early days, but i have, I've sent 200 emails.00:57.98AndrewAnd so I have some early results and01:00.84SeanDo we want to tell everyone what the five different emails were?01:05.39AndrewYeah, I narrowed it down to four after day one. I just canceled. There were two that were almost identical. And so I just killed one of them.01:12.61SeanOkay.01:13.75AndrewProbably shouldn't have, but like I'm incredibly impatient and no, no, it wasn't one of the ones that affects your bets.01:16.85SeanDoes it affect my bets? Oh, good, good, good. Sweet. That's what matters.01:22.88AndrewOkay.01:23.01SeanOkay, go.01:24.34AndrewYeah, yeah, yeah. So we've got four cold email templates. going these are meta monster cold email templates if that isn't blatantly obvious first one is just like classic sales email the uh the subject line is ai powered screaming frog and then it's just like hey i built this thing do you want to demo it i want to sell it to you classic sales uh sales pitch second one01:45.84SeanYep. Yep.01:52.92Andrewis almost the exact same, only instead of presenting it as a sales pitch, presenting it as, hey, I'm looking for feedback, which is true. i At this stage, I just want feedback and information, especially on our pricing, which I want to talk about later. Third one is one of your ideas that you pitched me, which is kind of like Try to write... i think your your pitch was try to write your cold email like you're writing a newsletter.02:25.14AndrewSo try to write it so that you're teaching the recipient something and then just also happen to be have to have this product that is connected to the thing you're teaching that you want but to try to sell.02:39.34AndrewAnd then the the fourth one was more of like a... Classic kind of growth hacky play, which is, hey, I want to interview you for our blog.02:55.21AndrewAnd so you and I placed a bet on this. Your bet, what did you bet?02:57.76SeanYep.02:59.95SeanSo I bet that the AI powered Screaming Frog, the first one, the traditional sales email would have the most opens because not because I believe in those, but because specifically AI powered Screaming Frog alternative is just a great subject header.03:04.78AndrewYep.03:07.11AndrewYep.03:09.83AndrewYeah.03:16.15Seanand then i also bet that the one that would bring you the most value quote unquote whatever that however we want to define that and is the newsletter one value isn't like you know someone actually demos most qualified leads basically you bet uh that the interview one would have the most opens and replies but the most valuable responses would come from the feedback yeah the feedback letter and whoever wins the other person to buy that the other person the up03:23.39AndrewYes. Yeah.03:37.69AndrewYes.03:44.46SeanThe loser has to buy the winner on Chick-fil-A.03:46.44AndrewYep.03:47.24SeanSo the stakes are high.03:47.32AndrewAll right. are you03:48.38SeanIt depends.03:48.87Andrewwhen are When are we cutting off the results, by the way? What's...03:51.67SeanWhat are the results that?03:54.65AndrewSo, currently, in fourth place in open rates, and tied for lowest response rate, I think.04:03.73Andrewoh i There's an asterisk on response rates that I'll explain later.04:06.58SeanOK.04:09.17AndrewNewsletter.04:10.39SeanOh, damn.04:11.29AndrewBut all of these have gotten crazy good open rates for cold email.04:16.19SeanOK.04:16.80AndrewThat is the lowest open rate at a 42% open rate so far.04:20.22SeanWhat's the highest?04:21.26AndrewHighest, I'm sorr

Andrew just launched MetaMonster! Andrew and Sean dig into how the launch is going so far (spoiler alert: not great), whether the product is overpriced, and what to try next. Then the guys talk about the demo for Sean's new product and what to name it. Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:00.75SeanWelcome back. How is robotics?00:00:02.92AndrewRobotics was good and bad. Bad good? Good bad?00:00:07.35SeanOkay.00:00:08.00AndrewSo we got our butts kicked. Like, plain out, got our butts kicked.00:00:10.85SeanOh.00:00:12.28AndrewWe got there. The robots were insanely good, all of them. We played well. Like, there's this crazy advanced stats thing in robotics.00:00:22.25AndrewSome probably, like, 20-year-old or something.00:00:22.12SeanYeah.00:00:26.42Andrewbuilt a website called StatBotics that pulls the live data from... All the live data is published through the site called the Blue Alliance from every match.00:00:36.61AndrewAnd he runs that through some sort of equation, statistical...00:00:40.43SeanCool.00:00:41.28Andrewthingy and creates he calls it EPA estimated points added which is supposed to because like robots always compete in teams of three and so EPA is like how much of your total score did you actually contribute to the the team estimated points added so anyway this is a long rambly way to say that like throughout the competition so we were00:00:47.18SeanOK.00:00:56.35SeanOh, what what does what does EPA stand for?00:01:00.84SeanOK, OK, gotcha. OK.00:01:09.00AndrewThere were 40 robots in on our field. 160 robots at the competition total, by the way. Four fields going simultaneously all right next to each other. So it's like pure chaos. It's wild. It's really fun and interesting and crazy.00:01:22.28SeanYeah. Sweet. sweet00:01:23.97AndrewWe go into the the weekend ranked top 20 in EPA, like maybe 17 or something like that. And our goal was to end up like around that range at the end of qualifiers like if we had ended up around that range gotten picked for playoffs we would have been a lock for worlds uh our epa stayed around that range like we were at one point as high as like 11 we finished 22 in epa and then like fluctuated kind of between that range so we were playing well our driver was driving well00:02:00.39AndrewBut we just got our butts kicked in the actual matches. And EPA is definitely not perfect. It's not everything. like you know It has a bunch of obvious flaws. And so like you know just because our EPA was good didn't mean we were doing well. but But like we had some hiccups here and there.00:02:12.63SeanYeah.00:02:15.77AndrewBut like objectively, I think the team, like the kids drove well. I think they played well. But we ended up ranked out 40th. so we just got whooped we hit we won one match the entire weekend00:02:25.28SeanDamn.00:02:30.61SeanBut out of the top 40. Yeah.00:02:34.09Andrewuh well top 160 like top 40 we there were 40 in our field 160 robots there total and most of the robots never play each other so you don't really know who the top 40 are00:02:37.13Seanokay00:02:46.33SeanI just meant like of the state.00:02:48.19Seancause00:02:48.29AndrewYeah.00:02:48.68Seanbecause00:02:49.17AndrewWe were top 160. sixty Again, what I'm saying is like, 160 the state.00:02:51.79SeanYeah.00:02:54.51Seangod i Got it, got it, got it.00:02:55.25Andrewyeah00:02:55.52SeanMakes sense.00:02:57.41AndrewAnd so like that part sucked. like It sucked to lose a bunch of matches. it really You could tell it was like wearing on the kids. After a while, we had a little bit of drama that we had to work through with the team. like some you know you know it It was sort of getting to people, and it was causing some conflict and tension and stuff.00:03:15.63AndrewBut the good side of it is we worked through all of that. We got our first win. We celebrated the heck out of that.00:03:25.17AndrewCelebrated the heck out of the seniors, you know, just, you know, making it to states and their senior season and all of that. And then really cool on Saturday.00:03:35.58AndrewSo that we didn't get picked for playoffs. so we just had Saturday to chill, which was honestly really nice and fun. And like, just got to spend a lot of time. Like the team got spend a lot of time bonding and hanging out and watching robots do cool robot shit.00:03:49.53Andrewand then we were one of four teams who won an award called the rising all-stars award which is given to a team that is like has grown drastically and is on an upward trajectory which is exactly what we are and so that was really cool it was it was really cool to get that and so like00:03:55.32SeanSick. I love it.00:04:03.57Seanlove it00:04:10.31AndrewFinal rankings in the state, which again are imp

In this episode Sean is finally ready to reveal the new product Miscreants is building! Meanwhile Andrew's robotics team is getting dangerously close to qualifying for the World Championships, and the guys debate marketing new products. This episode was originally supposed to go out a couple weeks ago, but we're playing with our publishing schedule a bit. Links:Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskinsAndrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsunMiscreants: http://miscreants.com/Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.Transcript:00:00:01.03SeanHow you doing?00:00:01.98AndrewI'm good.00:00:02.68SeanHappy Wednesday.00:00:03.55AndrewHappy Wednesday. Things are hectic. My entire life is robotics and also trying to launch a product on Monday. But yeah, I'm kind of delighted that I don't have, no offense, but I'm delighted I don't have any miscreants clients right now.00:00:09.88SeanHell yeah.00:00:16.49SeanFor yet, you know I got two product inbounds in like one day.00:00:21.53AndrewOh, I knew about one. I didn't know about both.00:00:24.39Seani got another Well, i actually, technically, Osuja's got another.00:00:28.53AndrewSo we're up to three. Great.00:00:29.56SeanYeah.00:00:29.65AndrewCool. Cool.00:00:30.24Seanyeah00:00:30.41AndrewCool.00:00:31.14SeanI can just not close them.00:00:31.22AndrewOkay.00:00:32.71SeanYou know?00:00:33.75AndrewI mean, I do like being able to pay my bills.00:00:35.38SeanCash.00:00:37.32AndrewSo yeah, I probably will tell them I can't start on anything until May though. All right, good.00:00:44.47SeanThat's fine. That's what we're telling everyone right now. We're all inbound that comes in. We're swamped for RSA at the moment. We can kick things off and start like loosely, but it's like hands-on keyboard stuff.00:00:57.38SeanEveryone's tied up.00:00:58.19AndrewNice. When is RSA?00:00:59.99SeanApril 28th. 26th is when Gyside starts.00:01:01.61AndrewOkay, cool.00:01:01.81SeanYep.00:01:03.19AndrewSo the reason that I can't start anything until May is, one, we're launching Metamonster, the beta, on Monday, and I need to like ramp all of our marketing back up, like start up Google Ads, start doing cold outreach, all that stuff again.00:01:17.34SeanHell00:01:18.56AndrewBut two... There is now a non-zero percent chance that my robotics team makes it to Worlds and has to raise $10,000 and figure out how to get 15 high schoolers to Houston in like two weeks.00:01:28.86Seanhe yeah. That's awesome. 10K. Okay.00:01:32.02AndrewYeah, I don't actually know what it will cost. That's just like kind of a number I'm pulling out of my ass. But like we need to pay for like 15 flights, hotel rooms, and to transport a robot across the country.00:01:36.40Seanokay00:01:43.57AndrewYeah.00:01:44.78Seanjust have them take the pieces apart, put it in a suitcase, and rebuild it. And then you...00:01:51.04AndrewYeah, that is that sounds like an idea from someone who has never touched a first robotics robot in their life.00:01:56.15SeanI've done Legos and failed at the at the tech whatever it's called, the kinetic Legos.00:01:57.97AndrewYeah, same thing. Same thing.00:02:03.14AndrewThe, like, robo-LEGO thing?00:02:04.71SeanYeah, yeah, yeah.00:02:05.70AndrewYeah.00:02:05.81SeanI tried once was over.00:02:07.62AndrewYeah, so...00:02:07.79Seanwent back. Yeah.00:02:09.30Andrewwe crushed our second competition again and what that means this is i'll try not to get too into the weeds because first robotics is so incredibly convoluted but basically we have racked up 112 district ranking points between our first two competitions you need about 70 to qualify for the state championships00:02:11.88SeanCongrats.00:02:21.21SeanNice. Overqualified.00:02:29.05Seannice00:02:34.30Andrewwhich, so we have officially qualified for states. I leave at 6.30 tomorrow morning to go to the state championship for the first time ever.00:02:37.49Seanoverqualified00:02:43.78AndrewOur team has never been. And then district rank points are also how you qualify for worlds. So generally speaking, if you get 150 state rank points, then you qualify for worlds.00:02:58.55AndrewAnd points at states count for triple what normal points count for so if we finish kind of middle of the road and make it into playoffs and like win a playoff match we will almost definitely qualify for worlds Which would be absolutely bonkers because then we, as I mentioned, have to raise a bunch of money, figure out how to get a bunch of kids to Houston, and compete against the best robots in the world as a tiny scrappy team that has never even been to States before.00:03:33.77AndrewAnd it gets crazier. I've been doing some research. I don't think a Detroit public school from like our school district has ever made it to Worlds.00:03:46.99AndrewThere's only one team from DHDC that's ever made it. And I think they might have been like a private team