Pulling The Thread with Elise Loehnen

Psychotherapist Nicole Sachs has been pioneering a simple, yet remarkable approach to helping people with chronic pain, anxiety, and other very human conditions. Her story today begins with how she discovered Dr. John Sarno and eliminated her own debilitating back pain a few decades ago. Sachs explains why she’s come to believe that many chronic conditions stem from a dysregulation in the nervous system that leads the brain and the nervous system to send pain signals as a source of protection. As she puts it: “The pain is not in your head, but the solution is not in altering your physical body.” Today, she breaks down her (surgery-free) method, which involves something called journal speak to lower your emotional reservoir—which I think can be incredibly helpful and enlightening for any of us, whether or not you experience pain or anxiety.For the show notes and more on Nicole Sachs—including her new book Mind Your Body—head over to my Substack. And just another reminder here that we are certainly not suggesting in this conversation (or anywhere in this podcast) that you don’t receive proper medical care or pursue a diagnosis for anything that is bothering you. Please always see your doctor and take care! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

There is a historical lack of research on the female body—and this has hurt women, men, everyone. But now, there is some fascinating research on the female body, which Cat Bohannon, PhD, shares today. (Bohannon is the New York Times–bestselling author of Eve: How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution.) For example, Bohannon explains why the fat around our butts and hips is quite special, and how women tend to metabolize painkillers differently than men. She breaks down the evolutionary origins of breast size and shape, and she debunks the myth that men are much larger than women. We talk about why women tend to heal better and live longer than men. And what’s really at stake for our health and lives when it comes to understanding sex differences.For the show notes and more on Cat Bohannon, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I recorded this month’s solo episode from the floor of the hotel room where I stayed for a couple of weeks after the fires broke out in Los Angeles. There, I met an incredible cast of characters and I started to process what’s happening in our city: Acts of bravery that have stunned me. The incredibly moving ways we have shown up for each other. Other very human responses that have created some dissonance. What I think will change in communities within and outside of LA. Wherever you live, how this all might feel different depending on whether you over or under function. (Toward the end, I also take a detour to answer questions I’ve gotten about my thoughts on what is unfolding in the news regarding Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni.)For the show notes and related links, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Why do we go along with situations that make us comfortable? What can we learn from nervous laughter, or a crocodile smile? If we’ve been conditioned to be overly compliant, how do we learn to be a little more defiant? How do we intuit when it’s the right time for us to comply, and when we’re better off defying? Sunita Sah—trained physician, Cornell University professor, organizational psychologist, and author of Defy—answers these questions and more. For the show notes and links to Sunita Sah’s work, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the past three decades, renowned author Pico Iyer has made more than 100 trips to a small monastery in California. Today, he shares what he’s learned there, along with other moments of beauty from his new book Aflame. He talks about why many of us crave a particular type of silence, how to escape the trappings of our minds, why a recollection can be more profound than a realization, and how he’s come to see the people in his life more clearly.For more on Pico Iyer, his books, and this special Benedictine hermitage, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Trying to bring the best sparkly version of yourself to your own healing: It just doesn't work, says Katherine May. In this conversation, we return to May’s New York Times–bestselling book Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. It feels more relevant now than ever. We talk about finding a home for lingering, unexpressed grief and for vast, unsettled feelings. We talk about rest, creative work that we love, and things that make us laugh—and Katherine May always makes me laugh.For the show notes, including links to May’s books and our previous podcast conversations together, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Drawing from Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy, Gabby Bernstein created this simple, and yet powerful, process that you can do for one minute a day—or whenever you need to check in with yourself and reconnect with the core of who you are. It’s a helpful tool for (safely) recognizing beliefs, behaviors, and patterns that limit us—and then befriending these smaller, childlike parts of us, instead of letting them control us. It’s also what Bernstein calls “the real manifesting flex.”For Bernstein’s new book Self-Help, more on IFS (including my podcast conversation with IFS founder Richard Schwartz), and the rest of the show notes: head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Astrologer Heidi Rose Robbins starts us off with an astrological snapshot of this moment in time (including a dip into Trump’s chart). Looking ahead into the new year, she breaks down the five major outer plans that are shifting into new signs—and what these changes mean for all of us. She explains why her friend, an astrological historian, is calling this “the era of plot twists.” On an individual level, Rose Robbins shares an invitation to give the gift of your rising sign now. And to end, she takes us through a mini debrief of every sign, and the reasons why each one can get a bad rap from time to time.For the show notes and links, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For December’s solo episode, I looked at the etymology of the word resolutions. What I found might surprise you. And instead of thinking about what I want to be or do next year, it got me thinking about what I want to let go of. And how I can recognize when I’m making things more complicated than they need to be (I love complexity and depth but can sometimes get carried away). I also get into a few other things that are on my mind right now, including: journal speaking, how we sometimes conflate altruism with transaction, the MAHA movement, and ways I can be softer on people while being harder on systems. Last, some news about two of my most fulfilling collaborations, which are both coming out in workbook form in 2025: True and False Magic (with Phil Stutz) and Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (with Courtney Smith).For the show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Gregory Boyle is a beloved Jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries, a gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and re-entry program in Los Angeles. He’s also a New York Times–bestselling author. His new book is called Cherished Belonging: The Healing Power of Love in Divided Times. (It may sound soft and saccharine—but it’s not.) Father Boyle explains why he so deeply believes two things: One, that everyone is unshakably good. And two, that everyone belongs to us. He talks about the difference between hope and optimism, and forgiveness and mercy. And why the moral quest has never kept us moral. It’s just kept us from each other. He also talks about what prohibits us from making progress, how to get underneath a complex issue, and his way of holding a container in which someone else can feel their wholeness.For the show notes and to support Father Boyle’s work, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

John Price, PhD, is a depth psychotherapist, the host of the podcast The Sacred Speaks, and co-director and co-owner of The Center for the Healing Arts and Sciences in Houston. He shares his approach to spirituality, to bringing men into meaningful community, and to establishing intimacy. We talk about: Why it’s problematic that boys and men have largely defined themselves by what they’re not. Why he asks men about their inner lives as opposed to their feelings. And what it might look like if we had rites of passage that honored the masculine and the feminine within each of us, in truly unique ways.For more show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coach Courtney Smith joins us in this moment, when collective anxiety is running high, to share a perspective and tools that many of us could use right now. She explains why we understandably get seduced by fear and stuck operating below the line, from a place of threat. And how we can recognize when we’re ready to move above the line—and what awaits us there. She also shares some ways to escape the drama triangle, be okay with the unknown, and find power in your story—whether it’s one you’re fully committed to, or one you’re willing to expand.For more show notes, head over to my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Maria Rodale is the former CEO of Rodale, a longtime (and award-winning) advocate of organic regenerative farming, a lifelong learner, a self-described “crazy gardener,” and the author of Love Nature Magic, Shamanic Journeys into the Heart of My Garden (to name a few titles). She shares how she learned to journey shamanically (and what this does and does not mean)—and the incredible messages she’s received from nature, the world, and herself in the process.See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For November’s solo episode, listeners mostly asked me about the larger spiritual moment we might be part of at this moment in time—so I’m sharing some thoughts on that. Plus, what to do about male podcasters. Why it’s all too easy to mistake a transaction for altruism. How I’m trying to use my privilege to not morally exclude. And other things on my mind right now. (If there’s something you want me to explore in a future episode, drop a note in the podcast rating and review section.)You can find the show notes, as always, on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“There's no generation before us that’s had this opportunity to find this treasure,” says therapist Connie Zweig, PhD. Zweig is the author of The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul. She outlines a compelling approach to aging—one that teaches us how to navigate identity shifts, see who we are beyond our roles, and truly make the most of the gifts of our lives. Today, she shares what happened when she did her own life review practice, and so many other gems that make me excited to keep getting older.See the show notes and more about Zweig on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everything Richard Christiansen creates is incredibly beautiful and special. Christiansen is the founder of Flamingo Estate and the author of the new book, The Guide to Becoming Alive. He’s also a dear friend of mine. I loved chatting with him about how he moves so fast, what can spark momentum and growth, the qualities that make something precious but also cool, and what it means to ripen your banana (while this sounds vaguely sexual, it is actually a profound metaphor of his).See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl, PhD, returns for a deeper exploration of shadow. We talk about our instinct to disown what feels dark or evil, and how tightly we claim the side of what’s good, clean, pure. But Hübl also paints a beautiful alternative: a gentle integration that allows us to illuminate, and own, more of our collective shadow bit by bit—and to transform it into something hopeful, healing.If you’re new to the podcast, you can find my first conversation with Hübl (on locating “bad” feelings in our bodies) here, and our second chat (on sitting with discomfort) here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rightful Instagram celebrity Sharon McMahon is known as “America’s Government Teacher.” Her new book, The Small and the Mighty, was an instant #1 New York Times bestseller. With her trademark warmth and wit, McMahon shares a few historical secrets, her approach to judging people from the past, and her perspective on our current moment in time. She also tells a remarkable story that may convince you to work with, instead of against, your enemies. See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this solo episode, I share some things that are on my mind right now, including: An experience I had revisiting my 22-year-old self. A powerful takeaway from a workshop on wanting and desire. And how I’m thinking about personal stories, memoir, and bridges to bigger collective stories. I also answer some listener questions (thank you, and please keep them coming).See more about this episode on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this moving, live conversation with journalist Clara Bingham, we delve into the incredible stories that make up her latest oral history book, The Movement. Bingham reveals the highs and the lows of second wave feminism from 1963 to 1973, the women who transformed America during that time, and the reverberations that we’re still feeling today. I got choked up during this one.See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Legendary anthropologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy gave us the term “allomother,” and by extension, “alloparent”—the pioneering idea that mutual care is the reason we’ve evolved to be the humans we are today. Hrdy, who is professor emerita at the University of California, Davis, has just written a new (and stunning) book, called Father Time: A Natural History of Men and Babies. Today, we talk about what she’s learned about human culture over the course of her long career, and the impact of her elegant hypothesis.See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sharing an episode of Need a Lift?, a show that focuses on bringing people together during a tough time in our culture. Host Tim Shriver talks to wise guests who have transformed painful moments in their lives into purpose through their spiritual rituals and practices. Guests like bestselling novelist Min Jin Lee on why she creates complicated characters who hold the secret to our transformation, and Olympic athlete Michael Phelps and his wife Nicole discussing the importance of cultivating an inner life in competition, mental health and in their marriage. Need a Lift? is truly the antidote to the hatred and despair we’re all exhausted of hearing, giving us hope that change is possible. In this episode, The Office’s Rainn Wilson explains that we can quiet the world's chaos and deal with our collective sense of overwhelm by believing in something bigger than us. Find more episodes of Need a Lift? at https://link.chtbl.com/needalift?sid=pullingthethread Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“We need to be open to things that offend or transcend our worldview because they're clearly doing that for a reason,” says Jeffrey Kripal, PhD. Kripal—who holds the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University—returns to the podcast for a second time. We talk about different ways to understand the deeper realities of our lives, and his latest book, How to Think Impossibly: About Souls, UFOs, Time, Belief, and Everything Else. Yes, we get to time travel and conspiracy theories. And also what makes Kripal’s work fun—and funny.See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“I think it's good to relive the past and then revise your life,” says Edith Eva Eger. “Go through it, but don't get stuck in it.” The world-renowned psychologist, who survived the Nazi death camps, and went on to be a colleague of Viktor Frankl, just turned 97. And she just released The Ballerina of Auschwitz, which is the YA edition of her major memoir The Choice. She joins the podcast with her grandson, Jordan Engler, to talk about how her mindset has evolved—and what she still looks forward to doing.See more about this episode and guest on my Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Jim Doty is a neurosurgeon, neuroscientist, and the director of Stanford Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education. Jim is also a bestselling author—his first book, Into the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the Heart, tells his improbable life story: Jim had a tough start in life. He wandered into a magic shop where he met the shop owner’s mother, Ruth, who offered to spend six weeks teaching him mindfulness and meditation—these weren’t really things at the time—and ultimately how to manifest. After a rollercoaster of a life, including manifesting the list of things he wanted as a tween, he found himself back at the bottom again, and began to attend to making real meaning with his life. This ushered in his last chapter, where he has become much more than a neurosurgeon: He is one of the leading figures in the globe drawing connections between the brain, compassion and care, and how love shows up in the world.We caught up when Jim was in Riyadh, in the middle of the night for him—thank you Jim!—launching a new AI-enabled mental health app called Happi.ai, which isn’t therapy but is a friend in your pocket. Our conversation begins there before we dive into his newest book, Mind Magic: The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How it Changes Everything. If you think of Manifestation as woo-woo, Jim explains why it’s actually not—and the underlying brain mechanisms that are activated when you focus attention and intention. MORE FROM JAMES DOTY, M.D.:Mind Magic: The Neuroscience of Manifestation and How it Changes EverythingInto the Magic Shop: A Neurosurgeon’s Quest to Discover the Mysteries of the Brain and the Secrets of the HeartJim’s App: Happi.aiJim’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Sarah Elizabeth Lewis has one of the most illustrious resumés of all the guests on Pulling the Thread—and I think we’re the same age. Lewis is the John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Humanities and Associate Professor of African and African American Studies at Harvard University where she serves on the Standing Committee on American Studies and Standing Committee on Women, Gender, and Sexuality. It was at Harvard that Lewis pioneered the course Vision and Justice: The Art of Race and American Citizenship, which she continues to teach and is now part of the University’s core curriculum—as it were, Lewis is the founder of Vision & Justice, which means that she is the organizer of the landmark Vision & Justice Convening, and co-editor of the Vision & Justice Book Series, launched in partnership with Aperture. Before joining the faculty at Harvard, she held curatorial positions at The Museum of Modern Art, New York and the Tate Modern, London. She also served as a Critic at Yale University School of Art. I’m not done—in fact, I could go on and on. She’s the author of The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery, a book on Carrie Mae Weems, and innumerable important academic papers. Today, we talk about The Rise and how it dovetails in interesting ways with her brand-new book, The Unseen Truth: When Race Changed Sight in America, which is about the insidious idea that white people are from the Caucasus, a.k.a. Caucasian—an idea that took root in the culture and helped determine the way we see race today. MORE FROM SARAH ELIZABETH LEWIS, PhD:The Unseen Truth: When Race Changed Sight in AmericaThe Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for MasteryCarrie Mae WeemsSarah Lewis’s WebsiteVision & JusticeFollow Sarah on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

James Hollis, PhD is a Jungian analyst who is still in private practice in Washington D.C. Hollis started his career as a professor of humanities before a midlife crisis brought him to his knees—and to the Jung Institute in Zurich. The author of 19 books, Hollis is one of the best interpreters of Carl Jung’s work, making it accessible for all of us who want to understand how complexes, archetypes, synchronicities, and the shadow drive our lives.Hollis’s books are very meaningful to me—you’ll find a long list in the show notes—and the chance to interview him did not disappoint. In fact, at one point, where he describes what we do to boys as we turn them into men, I actually started to cry. Meanwhile, James Hollis still lectures—you can go to his site to find a way to see him live. The fact that he’s 84 and does not seem inclined to retire—in fact, he told me he has another book coming out next year—is a testament to how a vocation doesn’t feel like work. This is one of my favorite interviews to date. I hope you love it as much as I do.MORE FROM JAMES HOLLIS, PhD:Why Good People Do Bad Things: Understanding Our Darker SelvesFinding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow UpA Life of Meaning: Relocating Your Center of Spiritual GravityThe Broken Mirror: Refracted Visions of OurselvesJames Hollis’s WebsiteRELATED EPISODES:Connie Zweig, “Embracing the Shadow”Satya Doyle Byock, “Navigating Quarterlife”Terry Real, “Healing Male Depression”Niobe Way, PhD, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Jamil Zaki is a professor of psychology at Stanford University and the director of the Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab. Jamil trained at Columbia and Harvard, studying empathy and kindness in the human brain, and I’ve been a mega-fan for years, after interviewing him for his first book, The War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured World, in 2019. His latest book, Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human Goodness, is a must-read. It’s a love letter of sorts, a collaboration through the veil with his late colleague Emile Bruneau, who also studied compassion, peace, and hope. I would love for every single person to read this book as it paints a more accurate, data-driven portrait of who we are, which is mostly good, and mostly aligned in our vision for the future. Jamil explains what happens to us when fear and cynicism intervene and the way we come to see each other through a distorted lens. He busts some other significant myths as well, namely that we glorify cynicism as being “smart”—you know, no dupes allowed—but cynicism actually makes us cognitively less intelligent. Yes, you heard that right. I loved this conversation, which we’ll turn to now.MORE FROM JAMIL ZAKI, PhD:Hope for Cynics: The Surprising Science of Human GoodnessThe War for Kindness: Building Empathy in a Fractured WorldFollow Jamil on X and InstagramJamil’s Lab’s WebsiteRELATED EPISODES:Amanda Ripley, “Navigating Conflict”"Calling In the Call-Out Culture with Loretta Ross" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Tara Mohr is a coach, educator and the author of Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead, which is celebrating its 10th birthday this fall. I first met Tara a decade ago and was so taken with her and her insights that we did four stories together—stories that were deeply resonant with women everywhere. These stories were about understanding—and releasing—your inner critic, locating your inner mentor, examining the ways in which you keep yourself in the shadows and why, and the most potent one of them all: why women are so quick to criticize other women. We cover this same ground 10 years on—and it’s just as powerful as it was then. I loved reconnecting with Tara and can’t wait to do more with her over the coming decades, specifically revisioning what it might look like if more women led—but not in a model defined by men, in a way that might be uniquely their own. Okay, let’s get to our conversation.MORE FROM TARA MOHR:The Inner Mentor Guided MeditationTara Mohr’s WebsiteTara’s Online CoursesPlaying Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Katie Hendricks is the co-founder of The Hendricks Institute and the co-author of 12 books, including the bestseller, Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-Commitment. Katie and her husband, Gay, have been leading seminars and workshops for individuals and couples for decades—moving them from their definition of co-dependence into co-commitment. We touch on it in our conversation, but their definition of co-dependence is the only one I’ve heard that makes sense to me as they suggest co-dependence at its simplest is when your behavior is determined by someone else’s—when you are adjusting yourself around someone else in a way that is a disservice to the relationship. Instead, they argue for co-commitment, where everyone takes complete responsibility for their own actions and their own lives. They coach a lot of tools that I love to talk about on this podcast, including the Drama Triangle, and they also coined the concept of the Upper Limit Problem, which is our tendency—just when things are going really well–to self-sabotage. That’s a big focus of our conversation today.MORE FROM KATIE HENDRICKS, PhD:Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-CommitmentThe Conscious Heart: Seven Soul-Choices that Create Your Relationship DestinyThe Big Leap, by Gay Hendricks, PhDThe Hendricks InstituteFoundation for Conscious LivingFollow Katie & Gay on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Amanda Montell is the author of the New York Times bestseller The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, as well as Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism and Wordslut. Amanda is a linguistics major from NYU and all of her work centers around the way that words—and thoughts—shape our minds, and how our minds are permeable to other factors, whether it’s the halo effect, confirmation bias, or Cult-like sensibilities. Amanda is also the host of a podcast, “Sounds like a Cult.” Okay, let’s get to our conversation.MORE FROM AMANDA MONTELL:The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern IrrationalityCultish: The Language of FanaticismWordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English LanguageFollow Amanda on InstagramAmanda’s WebsiteAmanda’s Podcast: “Sounds Like a Cult”Amanda’s Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Jerry Colonna is the founder of Reboot and one of the most sought after CEO coaches in the world. Before he began coaching executives, Jerry was a burnt out VC, convinced that there must be a better way to impact the world—and also convinced that if he could influence the upper reaches of corporate structures, if he could help leaders heal, he could vastly improve the lives of all the employees. After all, he had observed the ripple effect of unhealed emotional wounds being taken out on other people—specifically people with less power. This is the focus of Jerry’s two great books about leadership: His first one is Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up and his second is Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to Belong, which takes a probing look at power and privilege and how it can alienate those who already don’t feel like they belong. In today’s conversation, we talk about all of this and specifically one of Jerry’s main queries. This passage is from Reunion: “While necessary, it’s not enough for us to do the inner work of unpacking our childhood wounds and, with fierce radical self-inquiry, free ourselves from the need to reenact the old stories of our pasts. Radical self-inquiry that stops at the question of how we have been complicit in creating the conditions we say we don’t want—a core tenet of my coaching and my book Reboot—is insufficient if it fails to look out to the world as it exists and ask how it could be better.” MORE FROM JERRY COLONNA:Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to BelongReboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing UpReboot CoachingFollow Jerry on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl is back for the second part of a series we’ve decided to undertake. If you missed part one, I’d recommend giving it a listen—it ran last week—though there is no test! You can pick up with this episode and you won’t be lost. Thomas is one of my favorite thought partners because of his presence—he can build and hold an incredible amount of space, which I hope is perceptible to all of you who are tuning in from afar. I can feel it through the computer. In today’s episode, we went deeper into our conversation about finding “bad” feelings in our bodies, sitting with discomfort, and learning how to move these sensations up and out. We talked about our collective responsibility to build this capacity—particularly if we’re not deep and directly in suffering ourselves—and why these deposits of collective trauma stick around for so long. On this final point—the presence of dark and dense entities that you can sometimes sense or feel, particularly in highly traumatized parts of the globe—we’re going to devote an entire episode. So stay tuned for Part Three, coming later this fall.MORE FROM THOMAS HÜBL:Part One on Pulling the Thread: “Finding Shadow in the Body”On Pulling the Thread: “Feeling into the Collective Presence”On Pulling the Thread: “Processing Our Collective Past”Thomas’s Podcast, Point of RelationAttuned: Practicing Interdepence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our WorldHealing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural WoundsThomas Hübl’s WebsiteFollow Thomas on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Carol Gilligan is an esteemed professor and developmental psychologist, who is the author of a landmark book called In a Different Voice—a book that I talk about and write about all the time. Back in the ‘80s—Gilligan is 87 now and still working—she looked at all the research from the likes of Lawrence Kohlberg and Piaget and made a stunning and obvious realization: These developmental psychologist giants had only ever studied boys. Typically white, middle-class boys. In response, Gilligan did a study on girls and moral development, a groundbreaking look into how culture genders our response to the world: Gilligan found that for girls, morality is relational and rooted in care—not so much law—and that fear of separation from relationship encouraged these girls to stop saying what they know. She struggled to get this study published—it was rejected multiple times—and has since become the most requested reprint out of Harvard. It also became the subject of In a Different Voice, which has sold 500,000 copies—unheard of in academic publishing. Everything that Carol Gilligan shares with us in this conversation is a revelation and also deeply resonant—and something you will know to be true. Before I go, if you missed Niobe Way’s episode from a few weeks ago, tune in to that next—Niobe was Carol’s student, and has done for boys what Carol has done for girls.MORE FROM CAROL GILLIGAN:In a Different VoiceIn a Human VoiceWhy Does Patriarchy Persist?Carol Gilligan’s WebsiteNiobe Way’s Episode: “The Critical Need for Deep Connection”FROM MY NEWSLETTER:“What Valley Girl’s Tell Us”“What Are We ‘Really, Actually” Saying“The Achilles Heel of Women” “How to Keep Caring” “Why is it So Hard to Scream?”EPISODES IN THE “GROWING UP” SERIES:Niobe Way, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection”Harvey Karp, M.D., ”The Long-Term Implication of Sleep”Carissa Schumacher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You’ve likely heard spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl on my podcast before. This conversation actually happened on his podcast, The Point of Relation, and we went so deep, we decided we needed to do a Part Two, which is coming to you next week. Thomas is the author of two excellent books on collective trauma and resonance: Attuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our World and Healing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural Wounds. He does work all over the globe in geographic pockets where a lot has happened, helping people create containers to move the energy up and out. In this conversation, we talked about locating “bad” feelings in our bodies—specifically in the context of On Our Best Behavior—though the practices we discuss here are applicable to anything. MORE FROM THOMAS HÜBL:On Pulling the Thread: Feeling into the Collective Presence”On Pulling the Thread: “Processing Our Collective Past”Thomas’s Podcast, Point of RelationAttuned: Practicing Interdependence to Heal Our Trauma—and Our WorldHealing Collective Trauma: A Process for Integrating Our Intergenerational and Cultural WoundsThomas Hübl’s WebsiteFollow Thomas on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Long-time listeners will recognize Carissa Schumacher from this podcast. Carissa is an incredible forensic medium—which means that yes, sometimes the police call on her for assistance in solving crimes and yes, she also talks to people on the other side. But as of the end of 2019, she’s also a full-body channel for Yeshua, or Christ Consciousness. This might sound wild—and it is wild—but what’s expressed during these transmissions is also incredible. It’s deeply resonant, lyrical, and profound wisdom that feels so true—and sometimes counterintuitive—that it doesn’t really matter who is its author. Carissa and by extension, Yeshua, have been guiding lights for me in the past four years bringing me ever closer to myself. If you have an opportunity to go to one of Carissa’s journeys and you feel called, do it. They can be life-changing, in both overt and slowly unfolding ways. I asked Carissa to join me for this special series on GROWING UP because I wanted to ask her about highly sensitive children, empathy, and intuition—both its presence in all of us, and what happens as we grow up that causes it to shut down. For highly sensitive people—of which I know there are many who listen to this podcast, hopefully you’ll hear your own experiences reflected here. For parents of highly sensitive children, I hope what you hear will help. Conversations with Carissa are never short though, so we cover a lot of other ground from recent transmissions—the “in-reality self” versus “the in-theory self” and so much more. MORE FROM CARISSA SCHUMACHER:The Freedom Transmissions: A Pathway to PeaceCarissa’s WebsiteEnergy Healer Uta Opitz’s Website “The Codes of Anger”PREVIOUS EPISODES WITH CARISSA:“Yeshua: Integration not Eradication”“Understanding Spiritual Power”“Why Do We Suffer?”“My Spiritual Teacher and Yeshua Channel”EPISODES IN THE “GROWING UP” SERIES:Niobe Way, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection”Harvey Karp, M.D., ”The Long-Term Implication of Sleep” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Poet and author Mark Nepo has now written nearly 30 books, including mega-bestsellers like The Book of Awakening. In this latest book, You Don’t Have to Do It Alone, Mark explores the power of friendship to lend life both vital energy and more meaning, likening friends not to the boat, but to the oars that can help you reach the other side of the water. I’ve been thinking a lot about boys and men lately—including the ways in which they suffer under patriarchy too, sometimes in more devastating ways. I’m grateful for people like Mark who are insisting and modeling that to care is to be human—and that intimate friendships are vital for all of us who hope to lead long and meaningful lives. Women have an easier time of this, though we can all benefit from reminders. MORE FROM MARK NEPO:You Don’t Have to Do It Alone: The Power of FriendshipThe Book of AwakeningFalling Down and Getting UpMark Nepo’s WebsiteFollow Mark Nepo on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Harvey Karp is the author of The Happiest Baby on the Block which has Bible-like status in the world of parenting. As a beloved Los Angeles pediatrician, Harvey punctured the mainstream with the 5 S’s—swaddling, shushing, swinging, sucking, and holding the baby on its side—all simple interventions that helped parents help their newborns sleep. This was revolutionary—and certainly changed my trajectory as a new parent, as getting five straight hours instead of three can have a huge impact on your mental health. Harvey then codified his findings into “The Snoo,” a bassinet that functions as an extra set of hands: It swaddles, swings, shushes, and keeps the baby safely on its back while it sleeps. In today’s conversation we talk about what it would look like to institutionalize support of new parents, what Harvey’s trying to do about this, why it can be so awful, isolating, and hard to have kids, along with the advice most parents frequently seek. I’m lucky to call Harvey a friend and to be able to turn to him over the years—in fact, Sam slept in a prototype Snoo—so I’m thrilled to share some of his wisdom with all of you. Let’s turn to our conversation now.MORE FROM HARVEY KARP, M.D.:The Happiest Baby on the BlockThe Happiest Toddler on the BlockThe SnooFollow Happiest Baby on InstagramEPISODES IN THE “GROWING UP” SERIES:Niobe Way, “The Critical Need for Deep Connection” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sarah Bessey is the author or editor of five books, including Field Notes for the Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith. Sarah writes most prominently about leaving her evangelical upbringing and working through the deconstruction of her religious beliefs to create something that feels more true to her in its wake—as part of this, she co-founded the Evolving Faith community with some of her friends, including the wonderful and late Rachel Held Evans. Bessey writes prolifically about what it means to connect with her idea of God in a bigger and more expansive way—one that has moved from Simplicity, to Complexity, to Perplexity, to Harmony. In addition to Field Notes for the Wilderness, Sarah is also the editor of the New York Times bestseller A Rhythm of Prayer and Jesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible’s View of Women. In today’s conversation we talked about ideas and processes Sarah holds tenderly, including a shift from peace-keeping to peace-making and trying to articulate a vision of what she is for rather than who she is against. There is much in this conversation to which we can all relate.MORE FROM SARAH BESSEY:Field Notes for the Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving FaithA Rhythm of Prayer: A Collection of Meditations for RenewalOut of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving FaithJesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible’s View of WomenFollow Sarah on InstagramSubscribe to Sarah’s NewsletterEvolving FaithSarah’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Niobe Way is an internationally-recognized Professor of Developmental Psychology, the founder of the Project for the Advancement of Our Common Humanity (PACH) at NYU, and the Director of the Science of Human Connection Lab. She is also a Principal Investigator of the Listening Project, funded by the Spencer Foundation, the Chan-Zuckerberg Initiative and the Rockefeller Foundation. When she was a student, Niobe studied with Carol Gilligan—if you read my newsletter or listen to this podcast, you know Carol is a hero of mine and will be wrapping up this series as a guest. Niobe has done for boys what Carol has done for girls—and their research intersects and Venn diagrams in fascinating ways. While Carol’s research shows that girls come to not know what they know, Niobe traces how boys disconnect from their caring and often enter a period of irrevocably devastating and dangerous loneliness. Niobe is the author of Deep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of Connection as well as the just-released, Rebels with a Cause: Reimagining Boys, Ourselves, and Our Culture, which offers fascinating insight into our culture at large. Along with historical context, Niobe offers beautiful case studies from her research—following and interviewing boys as they grow up—along with notes from boys who have gone on to wreak havoc on the culture, in homicidal and suicidal ways. These notes speak to disconnection, extreme loneliness, and feeling like nobody cares. As I talk about my book in living rooms around the country, I often cite Niobe and Carol Gilligan, specifically the insight that at a certain point—around 8 for boys, and 11 for girls—the word “don’t” enters children’s vocabulary. For girls, it’s “I don’t know.” For boys, it’s “I don’t care.” And of course, girls knows. And of course, boys care. We need to repair our culture so it’s safe for them to stay connected. As you can tell, I’m very excited for this conversation.MORE FROM NIOBE WAY, PhD:Rebels with a Cause: Reimagining Boys, Ourselves, and Our CultureDeep Secrets: Boys’ Friendships and the Crisis of ConnectionThe Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and SolutionsNiobe Way’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Stan Tatkin is an author, therapist, and researcher who guides couples toward more durable relationships. He developed the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy (PACT), a non-linear approach that explores attachment theory to help couples adopt secure-functioning principles: In short, Stan and his wife, Tracey, train therapists to work through a psychobiological lens. Often, our brains get away from us when we’re in conflict in our relationships—we lose ourselves to our instincts. He has trained thousands of therapists to integrate PACT into their clinical practice, offers intensive counseling sessions, and co-leads couples retreats with his wife. Tatkin is also an assistant clinical professor at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA. Stan wrote Wired for Love: How Understanding Your Partner’s Brain and Attachment Style Can Help You Defuse Conflict and Build a Secure Relationship more than a decade ago and it became an instant classic. It was due for a refresh to encompass the wider range of relationships we’re now experiencing and it’s just been re-issued, better than ever.In today’s conversation we talk about the table stakes of a good relationship: Nobody cares about your survival more than your partner, something we easily forget. As it were, we get into a fascinating sidebar on Pre-Nuptial Agreements, which in Stan’s estimation cause many relationships to founder. I’ll let him tell you why.MORE FROM STAN TATKIN:Wired for Love: How Understanding Your Partner’s Brain and Attachment Style Can Help You Defuse Conflict and Build a Secure RelationshipIn Each Other’s Care: A Guide to the Most Common Relationship Conflicts and How to Work Through ThemWe DoWired for DatingStan Tatkin’s WebsiteFollow Stan on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, It’s Elise, host of Pulling the Thread. Starting next Monday, I’m doing another special series—this one is about growing up, and no, it’s definitely not just for parents. It’s mostly about re-parenting, or understanding the driving factors of how we all come to understand the world. You’ll hear from four very different voices about childhood, social programming, and development. Two are pioneers in gender development: One of my all-time heroes, developmental psychologist Carol Gilligan, who I write about in my Substack all-the-time who wrote In a Different Voice in the ‘80s, is joining me on the show, and so is Niobe Way, who does for boys what Carol Gilligan does for girls. I’m also talking with legendary pediatrician Harvey Karp, creator of The Happiest Baby on the Block, the founder of the Snoo, and an ardent and early environmentalist—and Carissa Schumacher, a full-body psychic medium and dear friend who is going to talk to us about what it’s like to raise and be a highly empathic and intuitive person—and how you can retain and develop those abilities. Or shut them down. It will be a great series, coming every Monday for the next month. I’ll see you every Thursday for a regular episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Prune Harris has been able to see, study, and shift energy fields since she was born—a gift she didn’t fully realize she didn’t share with everyone else. Prune is an incredible teacher—I’ve been lucky enough to work with her—because can take esoteric and complex energy systems and distill them into metaphors, concepts, and practices that are both easy to understand and easy to do. She has taught me so many simple holds and gestures that have had a direct impact on helping me calm myself down and feel more contained and grounded. She’s the author of a great guidebook, Your Radiant Soul: Understand Your Energy to Transform Your World, and she has an incredibly comprehensive Youtube channel where she teaches simple practices. She’s wonderful. In today’s conversation we cover a lot of ground—from basic holds and energy systems to why most of us need to also ground up. We also discuss the auric membrane and what happens when it gets punctured, by other people, the energy of the world, and psychedelics.MORE FROM PRUNE HARRIS:Your Radiant Soul: Understand Your Energy to Transform Your WorldPrune’s WebsiteFollow Prune on YouTubeFollow Prune on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Karl Deisseroth is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and bioengineering professor at Stanford. Karl is also the author of Projections: The New Science of Human Emotion, which is a beautiful revisitation and exploration of his time as a psychiatry resident, where he encountered all sorts of people who didn’t quite understand what was happening to their brains—and by extension their minds.In the book—and in our conversation today—Karl explores mania, autism spectrum disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, psychopathy, and dementia, all in gorgeous prose. Karl runs a lab at Stanford that focuses on optogenetics, mind-blowing science that can pinpoint where adaptive and maladaptive behaviors begin in the brain. He’s won the Kyoto Prize and Heineken Prize for his research, which is not surprising—it just might change the entire world of psychiatry.Today’s conversation is far-ranging and it’s also surprising, including a conversation about how some of these disorders—like eating disorders, which can be deadly, can also be strangely adaptive. Please stick with us. MORE FROM KARL DEISSEROTH, M.D., PhD:Projections: The New Science of Human EmotionFollow Karl Deisseroth on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ken Wilber's work and intellect is difficult to describe. Throughout a long career—and the authoring of 20 books, including A Brief History of Everything, Grace and Grit, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, and The Religion of Tomorrow, Wilber has put together what is essentially a synthesis of every psychological model of development. In fact, he locked himself away for years, writing every model down on pieces of yellow legal paper, and then knit them all together. I’ve written about Wilber’s work at length in my newsletter, which is also called Pulling the Thread—I’ll put links in the show notes—and I talk about his work on this show as well. Most recently, I talked about Ken Wilber with Nicole Churchill in our conversation about Spiral Dynamics. Wilber is a Spiral Dynamics wizard, though he uses it in aggregate with the work of other developmental thinkers, integrating the work of luminaries like Carol Gilligan, Robert Kegan, and others. In today’s conversation, we talk about Wilber’s brand new book, Finding Radical Wholeness, which explores the five big processes we all undertake in our lives. In today’s conversation, we mostly talked about two: Waking Up and Growing Up, which are often conflated. Wilber makes the case for why they are unrelated processes—and the essential nature of the latter. While Waking Up, or having a Satori experience is wonderful—and something that 60% of people report—we all need to grow up. Wilber and I spend most of today’s conversation talking about our political environment from the standpoint of developmental psychology: Why we’re so fractured, and what it will look like when the Integral Stage becomes the leading edge of culture and we learn how to include and transcend. I think this is fascinating, and reassuring, and excellent context for a moment that feels so out-of-control.MORE FROM KEN WILBER:Finding Radical WholenessA Brief History of EverythingSex, Ecology SpiritualityTrump and a Post-Truth WorldThe Religion of TomorrowGrace and GritMore books from Ken WilberMore from Pulling the Thread Podcast:“The Basics of Spiral Dynamics” with Nicole Churchill“Our Collective Psychological Development” with John ChurchillMore from Pulling the Thread Newsletter:Transcend and IncludeEmbracing Nondual ThinkingRight DoingAscending and DescendingStates vs. Stages Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nicole Avant is a philanthropist, filmmaker, and former diplomat. In her recent memoir, Think You’ll Be Happy, Nicole describes attending to the grief and shock of her mother’s unthinkable murder—she was shot in the back by a home intruder in 2021—by creating a living legacy in her honor. Her mom, Jacqueline Avant, had turned her Los Angeles home into a refuge for artists, politicians, and world-changers as the partner to Nicole’s father, entertainment mogul Clarence Avant, who is the subject of Nicole’s beautiful documentary,The Black Godfather. Nicole grew up sitting at the feet of extraordinary artists like Bill Withers, Oprah Winfrey, Quincy Jones, Sidney Poitier watching as her parents navigated the world to make it better for future generations. In today’s conversation, we talk about that legacy—as well as Nicole’s relationship to the divine. Like her parents, she is a master connector—putting people together to see what unfolds.MORE FROM NICOLE AVANT:Think You’ll Be Happy: Moving Through Grief with Grit, Grace, and GratitudeThe Black Godfather, on NetflixFollow Nicole on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“I think we need each other. I say this all the time, there are some things that are too big to feel in one body. You need a collective body to move them through. And I think that's what we need. We need to come together in spaces to heal, not just to consume together or to watch a movie together, but to feel together and to have human emotion in real life, in public and act from the place of a feeling body, to choose action from a feeling body and not just a reactive or a numb body, but a body that feels, a body that can connect. What kind of actions do you take in the world from that kind of body? I think it's different.”So says Prentis Hemphill, therapist, embodiment facilitator, and author of the just-released, What it Takes to Heal: How Transforming Ourselves Can Change the World. In today’s conversation—the final in a four-part series—we explore a path to putting ourselves, and the collective, back together, and how this begins with a visioning…but a visioning born from getting back in touch with how we actually feel. I loved their book—just by reading along with Prentis’s own path to re-embodiment, I found myself finding similar sensations in my chest, back and heart. In today’s conversation, we talk about somatics, yes, but also about conflict—and what it looks like to become more adept with our emotions in hard times. This is one of my favorite conversations I’ve had to date on Pulling the Thread—I hope you enjoy it too.MORE FROM PRENTIS HEMPHILL:What it Takes to Heal: How Transforming Ourselves Can Change the WorldPrentis’s WebsiteThe Embodiment InstituteFollow Prentis on InstagramRELATED EPISODES:PART 1: James Gordon, M.D., “A Toolkit for Working with Trauma”PART 2: Peter Levine, Ph.D, “Where Trauma Lives in the Body”PART 3: Resmaa Menakem, “Finding Fear in the Body (TRAUMA)”Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence”Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness”Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance”Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past”Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“This is the richness of the traditional wife explosion, right? There's this simple idea that you get to choose. Now you're choosing to emulate a situation that's a fiction in that those women didn't choose anything. They had to dress like that. They had to live like that. They had to be nice to the men like that, because they had no bank accounts. They had no cars. They had no licenses. They had no income. They had no security. So, don't equate these two things because you're just kind of living a dignified version of something that was pretty egregiously harmful, you know. And it's the difference, I think, in knowing that you have an option.”So says Soraya Chemaly, an award-winning writer, journalist and activist whose work has been at the center of mine. Her now-classic, Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s Anger lit me on fire—not only for the deftness of her arguments but also because she is a meticulous researcher. What she gave air to in the pages of that book blew me away. She figures prominently in the endnotes of On Our Best Behavior.Her new book, The Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth After Trauma, follows a similar path. Soraya takes something we’ve been served as an ideal—develop resilience—and flips it on its head, both widening and undermining this definition. She challenges our cultural myths about this concept and urges us all to shift and expand our perspective on the trait, moving from prioritizing the role of the individual to overcome and conquer to focusing on what’s really at work, which is collective care and connections with our communities. As she proves in these pages, resilience is always relational. MORE FROM SORAYA CHEMALY:The Resilience Myth: New Thinking on Grit, Strength, and Growth After TraumaRage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s AngerFollow Soraya on InstagramSoraya’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“Here's what I would say: peace will happen when people invest in cultivating peace as opposed to war. Peace will happen. And one thing I know, for me, I know peace, I know I will never see it, but maybe I can put something in place to where I leave something here and my children's, children's, children's grandchildren can nibble off of and feed on what I've left here the same way I feed off of Frederick Douglass's stuff.”So says therapist and social worker Resmaa Menakem, author of the New York Times bestseller My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending our Hearts and Bodies and originator of the Somatic Abolitionist movement. I met Resmaa many years ago, when he was one of the few voices in this space—Resmaa calls himself a communal provocateur and this is true, as his work challenges all of us to recognize and acknowledge that we’re scared. And that much of this fear is ancient. We were supposed to talk today about trauma in relationships, but our time together took a different turn—Resmaa jumped at the opportunity to put me in my familial and familiar fear. It’s hard, or at least it was for me, but hopefully you’ll stick with us to see how this works. This is the third part of a series on trauma, and it won’t surprise you to hear that Resmaa also trained with Peter Levine.MORE FROM RESMAA MENAKEM:My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending our Hearts and BodiesMonsters in Love: Why Your Partner Sometimes Drives You Crazy—And What You Can Do About ItThe Quaking of America: An Embodied Guide to Navigating Our Nation’s Upheaval and Racial ReckoningResmaa’s WebsiteFollow Resmaa on InstagramRELATED EPISODES:PART 1: James Gordon, M.D., “A Toolkit for Working with Trauma”PART 2: Peter Levine, Ph.D, “Where Trauma Lives in the Body”Thomas Hubl: “Feeling into the Collective Presence”Gabor Maté, M.D.: “When Stress Becomes Illness”Galit Atlas, PhD: “Understanding Emotional Inheritance”Thomas Hubl: “Processing Our Collective Past”Richard Schwartz, PhD: “Recovering Every Part of Ourselves” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“There are studies showing that, once your basic needs are met, and you're not worried about losing your house, losing your health care, increases in money don't significantly increase happiness, right? So I think, you know, money helps alleviate the very real biological primitive fear of you're gonna die if you don't have shelter and food and in our society, healthcare, but when it comes to things beyond that, I think that we have been sold the lie that money creates security and it's a natural conflation because at a certain point for securing the necessities,and it makes other problems easier to solve also clearly, but emotionally, money is not the solution to an emotional problem any more than food or having a certain kind of body or being married or not married.” So says Kara Loewentheil, author of Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it Out. While Kara and I went to college together, I first met her when she was gracious enough to have me on her hugely successful podcast, UnF*ck Your Brain, where I obviously fell in love with…her brain. Kara is theoretically an unlikely life coach—she graduated from Harvard Law School, litigated reproductive rights, and ran a think tank at Columbia University before deciding that she wanted to go upstream and rewire our culture’s brain instead. Kara is fixated on what she calls the “Brain Gap” in women—the thought patterns so natural to women that keep us feeling anxious and disempowered. It’s in that “Brain Gap” that we continue to both unconsciously support and re-enact a culture that doesn’t do great things for women. My work and Kara’s work are very aligned. In fact, Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it Out is a cousin to On Our Best Behavior—one that’s written with actionable insights, by a life coach, for getting to the root of the problem.MORE FROM KARA LOEWENTHEIL:Take Back Your Brain: How a Sexist Society Gets in Your Head—and How to Get it OutKara’s Website: The New School of Feminist ThoughtKara’s Book WebsiteKara’s Podcast: UnF*ck Your BrainFollow Kara on Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.