PRETEND

Who is Jane Whaley? Jane Whaley is the pastor at the Word of Faith Fellowship—a conservative, charismatic Christian church. Those who have left the church describe her as a ruthless cult leader. But, we don't know much about her. Where did she come from? How did she assume power? I spoke with John Huddle, a former Word of Faith Fellowship member, to learn more about Jane Whaley's past. To learn more visit pretendradio.org --Promo-- All Crime No Cattle --Music-- Thechicken.net Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Season 3: The Prophet - Word of Faith Fellowship Revisited I’m back with a whole new season of Pretend Radio. But this time it’s going to be a little different. Instead of telling you a different story each episode, I decided to do a serialize season where I tell you a single story, one episode at a time. So what is it about? It’s about the first episode I aired on this show—the Word of Faith Fellowship church. Back in season one, I met up with a man who says he escaped the cult. His name is John Cooper. I contacted him and asked "Hey, do you want to meet up? I’m thinking about starting a podcast and would like to tell your story." So, we just met up at a park in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. At this point, I didn’t know what this podcast was all about. All I knew was that he was part of a religious sect. And what he told me that day in that park blew my mind. But in the end, I feel like I didn’t do that story justice. It was one guy’s story. I needed to go out to the other side of the state, where the Word of Faith Fellowship is located, and do a little more digging. So, I got in my car and drove west. After I spending the whole day in Spindale, North Carolina, I thought to myself, there is no way I keep everything I just learned in one episode. If season one was about John cooper, season 3 is all about the town of Spindale. The episode you’re about to listen to is my first 3 episodes rolled into one. And I’m going to stitch them together by playing some ads for some non-profits organizations. And at the end of the episode there’s a preview of the new season. Now many of you have already heard this story, but trust me, even I had to go back and listen to these episodes. Once the season starts, I’m not going to spend a lot setting things up. We’re just going to get right to it. If you’re new to Pretend Radio, well this is a great place to start. Let me tell you, it’s pretty crazy. I got deeper into this story than any other journalist. The BBC has tried and failed. The Associated Press tried and they couldn’t get in. Even A&E is producing a documentary on the WOFF and they didn’t get the access I got. So enjoy this flashback episode and revisit The Prophet from season one. And get ready for the season because it’s coming out very soon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Martin McNally needed some cash, so what did he do? He hijacked an American Airlines flight with 90 passengers on board. If you haven’t listened to part one, check that out first. Today’s episode, picks up where we last left off. It’s 1972, and Martin McNally just hijacked a plane heading to Tulsa, Oklahoma. His plan was simple… Demand a half a million dollars, jump out of the plane, and disappear into the darkness of night. After 15 seconds of freefall, McNally pulls the ripcord. He begins to spin out of control. The parachute whips out and blasts him in the face. McNally looks up at the canopy as it pulls him away from the Earth. Then he looks down, and he realizes that the money bag slipped out of his hands. What now? He’s beat up, he lost all the money, and by the time he reaches the ground, there will be hundreds of FBI agents searching for him. What’s the point? McNally, considers ending it all. You definitely want to check out the rest of this story. This story was produced by Chris Knittel with the Burner Phone Podcast and was written and edited by me, Javier Leiva. LINKS Chief of Police for Peru Indiana picks up Martin McNally | New York Times Article Copter Hijacker Killed by Pilot Had Car With Weapons | New York Times Article Garrett Trapnell | Wiki FEATURED PROMO Already Gone Fall Line Podcast MUSIC The Pretend Radio theme song was composed by Joe Basile with thechicken.net Additional music by Blue Dot Session Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Martin McNally is going to hijack this plane and nobody, not even the FBI, is going to stop him. In today’s episode, Martin McNally recounts his 1972 hijacking of an American Airlines flight heading to Tulsa, Oklahoma. His plan was simple—sneak a submachine gun onboard a 727 jet, demand a half-million dollars in cash, and escape with a parachute. And he almost got away with it. Martin McNally’s story is gripping and will have you at the edge of your seat. He was inspired by the infamous hijacker D.B. Cooper. But unlike D.B. Cooper, we actually know how McNally’s story ends. As you can imagine, his plan didn’t go smoothly. The pilot had to return to St. Louis to get the mailbags full of money. After hours of negotiations with the FBI, there was a crew change and an FBI agent, dressed as crew members, snuck on board. Then, as the plane was preparing for take off, a drunk passenger smashed his Cadillac into the nose of the plane. By now, it should have been over. But McNally persisted and demanded a new plane. Once up in the air, McNally jumped into the darkness and disappeared with the cash. This story was produced by Chris Knittel with the Burner Phone Podcast and was written by me, Javier Leiva. --- FEATURED PROMO Oh No! Lit Class Killafornia Dreaming --- MUSIC The Pretend Radio theme song was composed by Joe Basile with thechicken.net Additional music by Blue Dot Session Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may remember Sharon McConnell-Dickerson from episode 8 titled “The Sculptor.” You know, the blind artist who casts the faces of dying blues musicians. When we first recorded that episode, she told me a story that quite frankly was hard to believe. It sounded like something out of a movie. In fact, it should be turned into a movie. It’s one of the most sadistic con artist stories I’ve ever heard. And warning, this episode is pretty dark. So if you don’t like that kinda stuff, you’ve been warned. This is the story of Wild Bill. Wild Bill, who’s real name is William Holbert, had long blonde curly hair and frequently wore a viking helmet. He was 6 feet tall and looked like one of those guys at the gym who’s pumped up on steroids. Wild Bill was also the owner of a Panamanian bar he liked to call the Jolly Rogers Social Club. The bar, which sat off the side of his island property, was a down and dirty watering hole, known for loud parties and the occasional drug use. The decor was simple. Wild Bill flew a flag with skull and bones. And the bar's motto says it all—90% of our members survive. William Holbert, and his wife Laura Reece, were not only the island bar owners. They also had a keen eye for real estate. The strange thing is, every time they closed a deal, the person selling them the property would disappear. Sharon McConnell-Dickerson shares with us the story about her friend Bo Icler and the real estate con that ripped them apart. ----- To learn more about this story, please check out the book titled, "The Jolly Roger Social Club" by Nick Foster. ----- Featured Promos: Moms and Murder The Murder in my Family ----- Theme music composed by Joe Basile with thechicken.net Additional music by Poddington Bear ----- This episode was written and produced by Javier Leiva If you would like to support the show, please leave us a rating on iTunes or donate $1 to our Patreon Page. Also, check out our sweet t-shirts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guess what? Pretend Radio turns one year old this month. So I thought it would be cool to replay some old guest interviews I've done on other shows. (01:00) Generation Why Podcast Interview - I talk about Vester Flanagan, the reporter who murdered the news crew live on television (14:23) Maurer Glass Podcast Interview - Learn how I find my guests and behind the scenes insights (30:22) The Live Canary Interview - I traded a story for a beer I'll be back soon with a new episode. In the meantime, spread the word. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode "The Babalawo" is about Santeria… the faith, not the song. Unlike the pop tune, not a lot of people know about this mysterious religion. Santería, also known as Regla de Ochá, La Regla de Ifá, or Lucumí, is an Afro-Cuban religion that means the worship of saints. So, you maybe asking yourself, “Javier, where’s the pretend angle here?” Well, this religion in particular gives me the heebie jeebies. I feel like people visit these Santeria priests like if they’re fortune tellers. Are they just taking advantage of people’s emotions or am I discriminating on this faith? Spoiler alert… I’m pretty sure I’m discriminating against their faith. But, I’m better than that right? Are my fears real or is this just a bunch of urban legends? Well, there’s only one way to find out. I need to travel to my hometown of Miami and embed myself in the Santeria community. First, I had to find a babalawo. What’s a babalawo? A babalawo is a Santeria priest who acts as a medium channeling the prophecy from the Orishas. Orishas are spirits who are a manifestation of the supreme God Olodumare. In this episode, we’ll get into the history and origins of Santeria. I also talk with a Santeria priest and priestess to learn more about their secret rituals. -----LIES, LIES, LIES----- Has someone ever lied to you? Have you ever lied to protect someone else? Send me your personal story and I'll post it on my Patreon channel. https://www.patreon.com/pretendradio If you'd like to submit a story, leave me a voicemail at 919-867-1871 or record your story on your smart phone's voice memo app and email it to me at [email protected]. -----MUSIC----- Theme Music composed by Joe Basile from The Chicken Music and Sound Design. Find out more about Joe and The Chicken at www.thechicken.net Additional music by Podington Bear -----PROMOS----- Promos by: Beyond Bizarre Podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How does a good cop turn bad? For Ruben Palomares, a former corrupt LAPD Rampart division officer, the process was slow. He went from receiving LAPD’s highest honor to becoming one of the most corrupt cops in US history. Officer Palomares’ story begins with his first undercover assignment. In the late 1980s there was this show called 21 Jump Street. Johnny Depp starred in it. It was about undercover cops, who pretended to be students, in order to bust drug dealers in schools. But did you know that back in the 1994, the Los Angeles police department juvenile narcotics unit actually recruited young officers to infiltrate classrooms in order to investigate drug dealers? They couldn’t just get any cop to fill this undercover role. They needed a fresh face who could blend in with the students. So, they approached officer Ruben Palomares. In 1995, Ruben Palomares got transferred to LAPD’s Rampart Division where he continued to work undercover cases. He was specifically assigned to the anti-gang unit called CRASH. CRASH is an acronym for the Community Resources Against Street Hoodlums. This is when Ruben’s fate will be decided. -----BURNER PHONE PODCAST----- You can find Burner Phone Podcast on Apple Podcast and Twitter. -----MUSIC----- Theme Music composed by Joe Basile from The Chicken Music and Sound Design. Find out more about Joe and The Chicken at www.thechicken.net Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A lie is only powerful if you choose to believe it. So why do we fall for it every time? In this episode, we’ll hear four different stories. Each describes a tall tale, so persistent, that it’s hard to imagine someone keeping all the lies straight in their head. Each one of these stories reminds me of the movie The Truman Show. It seems like everyone I spoke with lived in a world carefully created just for them. Now it’s time to ask you. Have you ever been lied to? Or have you ever told a lie in order to do the right thing? I invite you to share your story on Pretend Radio. If selected, your story will be featured as bonus content on our Patreon channel. Patreon is a way that you can support the show. And who knows, your story could be featured on the main show. If you would like to share your story, record your story using your smartphone voice recording app and email your audio to [email protected]. Or leave me a voice mail at (919) 867-1871. Please try to keep your story under 10 minutes. Don’t forget to leave me your name and a way to contact you. I can’t wait to listen to your stories. Theme Music composed by Joe Basile from The Chicken Music and Sound Design. Find out more about Joe and The Chicken at www.thechicken.net Additional music by: Podington Bear - Bambi Podington Bear - Twosome Podington Bear - Bumble Podington Bear - Suppose it is Thank you to Steven Pacheco with the Trace Evidence Podcast and Nicki T with the Strictly Homicide Podcast for partnering with me on this episode. And I’d love to thank Carly Nichols and Andrea Hill for listening and taking the time to talk with me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Previously on Pretend Radio, we learned how Art Schlichter’s gambling habits destroyed Anita Barney life. She went from being the wealthy widow of a Wendy’s CEO to becoming broke and struggling to pay her light bill. In part two of The Gambler, we’re going to talk about how Anita went from being Art Schlichter’s victim to his accomplice. You can find Anita Barney's memoir titled "Quarterback Sneak: Exposing the Criminal Game Plan of Art Schlichter" on Amazon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the story of disgraced Ohio State quarterback Art Schlichter. In order to understand Art Schlichter’s crimes, you first have to understand how his story ends. Anita Barney, heiress and widow of a former Wendy’s CEO, lost every single penny her husband left her. Art Schlichter and Anita Barney How did it happen? Art Schlichter gambled away her entire fortune. This episode was written and produced by Javier Leiva Music by: Cylinder Eight by Chris Zabriskie Careless Morning, Bivly, Pxl Eventuat, Pxl Cray, Pxl Ultra by Blue Dot Sessions Bittersweet, Pounded Piano by Podington Bear No More Trap by Audiobinger Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Warning, this episode may be disturbing for some listeners. It describes a shooting that resulted in the death of two people. While this story is not technically about a mass shooting, it has every characteristic of one. This is the story of Bryce Williams, the reporter who murdered Alison Parker and Adam Ward live on television. It turns out Bryce Williams is not his real name. Bryce Williams is just a pseudonym for his on air personality. The killer’s real name is Vester Flanagan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl comes from a long line of con men. He says both his grandfather and father were swindlers. It's only natural that Karl slipped into the family business. In today's episode, Karl talks about bribing corrupt company building managers. He says he sold them cheap light bulbs, trash can liners, and cleaning supplies at a premium price. In exchange for buying overpriced products, Karl would send these building managers gifts and cash. He made lots of money working as a B2B telemarketer. He eventually started his own company doing the same scheme. Karl admits that what he was doing was unethical, but surely it wasn't illegal. Finally, he got his answer when the FBI and the Postal Inspector's office showed with a subpoena. Jerri Williams, the FBI agent who busted him, says she could have locked him up right then and there—but she had bigger plans for Karl. ---- Special thanks to Jerri Williams for contributing her episode titled, "Karl LNU." This episode was written and produced by Javier Leiva and Jerri Williams. Subscribe to Pretend Radio: Apple Podcasts: tiny.cc/PretendApplePodcast Google Play: tiny.cc/PretendGooglePlay http://jerriwilliams.com/cooperating-witness-telemarketing-fraud/ You can learn more about Jerri Williams at jerriwilliams.com --- This episode includes promos from the following independent podcasts: -Maurer Glass Podcast -The Breakers Podcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Candis Cox and her husband Adam live in North Carolina. This is their love story. Their story is unremarkable in many ways. They met at a bar, went on a date, and eventually married after years of dating. What makes this story special is listening to them retell it. But love doesn’t come without sacrifice. This is a story about being your true self, even when the world is making you pretend to be someone else. The boy and the girl was written and produced by Javier Leiva and Wendy Gatlin. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Last time, I spoke with a group of women who drink a bleach-type chemical that they claim cures everything from cancer to depression. I soon discovered that parents are forcefully giving bleach enemas to kids with autism. In this episode, I interview Kerri Rivera, the woman leading this movement, and find out why she thinks this chlorine dioxide treatment is the cure for autism. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I stumbled upon a group of people who self-medicate with chlorine dioxide, a bleach like substance. They claim it cures everything from headaches, malaria, HIV, & cancer. In this episode, you'll hear from the man who discovered the "miracle cure" and from the people who take it. Thanks to Chris Cogswell w/ the Mad Scientist Podcast & Dr. Zuckerman with the TOXnow Podcast. toxnow.org/ themadscientistpodcast.com/ The Disgraceland Podcast disgracelandpod.libsyn.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mary Turner Thomas says she married a bigamist. She claims her husband, William Allen Jordan, was involved with 8 different women and fathered 13 kids. At one point, he had two wives, two fiances and a girlfriend on both sides of the Atlantic. William Allen Jordan and Mary Turner Thomson How in the world did Mary not know about these other relationships? How can one man pull off a con this big? It's easy to dismiss Mary as being naive. However, William Jordan was a skilled con man. Once you listen to how they met, and fell in love, it's easy to understand how he could steal her heart. Little did she know he will eventually steal much more than that. Mary says that William conned her out of £200,000. How did he do it? He led her to believe that he was a contractor for the CIA and terrorist were holding his family for ransom. As unbelievable as this sounds, he crafted evidence to back up his claims. Listen to Mary Turner Thomas describe the tactics he used to con her and learn how he finally got caught. This story was originally reported by my friend Lanie Hobbs at the True Crime Fan Club. I highly recommend you check out their show. You can find Mary’s book titled The Bigamist on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3uI9OkS She is also on Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheBigamistBook or at http://maryturnerthomson.com/book-inner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Pretender - Marc Ruskin FBI undercover agent Remember the name Marc Ruskin: because if you run into him, chances are he will introduce himself as Alex Perez, H. Marc Renard, or Sal Morelli – just a few of his FBI undercover personas. Marc Ruskin started his career as an assistant DA in Brooklyn and left it all behind to join the FBI Academy. It didn’t take him long to become an FBI undercover agent. His first big undercover case landed him in Wall Street busting up trading scams. That case went down in flames when a former colleague recognized his true identity and blew his cover. His next assignments proved to be much more dangerous. Marc embedded himself with mobsters, corrupt public officials, terrorists, and powerful drug dealers. Of course, we can’t cover his entire 27 year career here on this podcast. For that you’ll need to check out his new book titled “The Pretender.” It’s a great read. What we will do is talk about a few cases that were so intense, it had me grip the book so tight that I almost fused the pages together. Marc Ruskin’s next assignment was to bust up a fraudulent documents scheme in New York City. I'm not talking about fake IDs – there’s a difference. These fraudulent IDs are the real thing. If a police runs a fraudulent driver’s license, it actually checks out in their database. Marc told me terrorists, mob guys, fugitives were being arrested and had all kinds of real documents in their wallets under fake names. The FBI didn't have any leads. First, they had to find the source of these fraudulent documents. Marc says that some of these fraudulent driver’s licenses were selling for as much as a thousand dollars on the streets. It wasn’t until a tip from a twenty-something-year old man named John Sultan that led the FBI to a shabby travel agency in the Bronx called Holy Land Travel. The travel agency was a front led by Palestinian immigrant named Mahmoud Noubani. The Pretender Marc Ruskin FBI Undercover You can find The Pretender on Amazon.com or at your local bookstore. Also a special thanks out to St. Martin’s Press for letting me share Marc’s story with you. Buy the book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3dRXbgl You can also follow Marc Ruskin on Twitter https://twitter.com/mhruskin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before Marc Ruskin was an undercover FBI agent, he was an assistant DA in Brooklyn. Why did he give up his career as a powerful attorney to join the FBI academy? Well, in order to prosecute criminals, you have to catch them first. It didn’t take long for Marc to become an undercover agent. For 27 years, he slipped into various different characters busting criminals ranging from drug dealers to Wall Street insiders. At one point, Marc was juggling three or four cases at a time – switching back and forth between identities. He wrote a book about his time at the FBI appropriately titled “The Pretender.” When I first discovered his book I immediately shot him a message. Luckily for me, he agreed to share some of his stories. In the late 80s and early 90s, San Juan Puerto Rico had one of the highest murder rates of any US city. Some of the violence can be blamed on the Machetero, a separatist group actively trying to make Puerto Rico and independent country. Marc: "So I had gone from being an attorney in New York where the biggest thing I had to worry about was a papercut. Now I was in the streets of San Juan Puerto Rico as a combatant to the Macheteros. We learned at one point that the Macheteros had a plot to assassinate an FBI agent. The problem was, we didn’t know who the FBI agent was." Listen to my interview with Marc Ruskin on part 1 of "The Pretender" on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find The Pretender on Amazon.com or at your local bookstore. Purchase Marc Ruskin's autobiography titled The Pretender: https://amzn.to/3dRXbgl Also, you can follow Marc Ruskin on Twitter http://twitter.com/mhruskin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sharon McConnell-Dickerson is preserving the Mississippi Delta blues with her own two hands. She's doing it by creating molds of some of the most influential blues musicians of our time. The lifecasts include a mask of Bobby “Blue” Bland, Little Milton from Memphis, “Honeyboy” Edwards from Chicago, and Pinetop Perkins from Clarksdale, just to name a few – almost 60 musicians total. http://mcconnelldickersonart.com/blues-lifecast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

South Carolina serial killer Todd Kohlhepp confesses to the Superbike Motorsports mass murder. This is part 2 of "The Real Estate Agent." I suggest starting with part 1. It was a Thursday morning. Kohlhepp walked into the Superbike motorsports store and started scoping out the place. He’s not shopping for motorcycle. He’s looking for his next victims. Kohlhepp: "I got there. Not everybody was there. I went in sat on a few bikes, did my usual. Basically buying for time. And doing my best to make sure the paying customers are not there. Collateral damage is not cool. I chose a time when it was not busy. A time after work when I would have a lot of people in there. I did not want to shoot other people. Finally all four show up. From the sound of it nobody else was there." The four people Kohlhepp is referencing are Brian Lucas, Chris Sherbert, Scott Ponder, and Scott’s mother Beverly Guy. Investigator: "When you say all four?" Kohlhepp: "All the four people who work at the bike store. The mechanic, the mom. I was not going for the mom but she was there at the time. Working there. She was thrown into it. She was not a primary target." The store finally cleared. Kohlhepp was the only customer in the store. He tells one of the employees that he’s interested in a certain bike. Kohlhepp: "I cleared that room in under 30 seconds. You guys would have been proud. I’m sorry but you guys would have been proud." This was the crime Kohlhepp got away with. Nobody was looking for him. Why would he confess? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week’s story is about self-professed serial killer Todd Kohlhepp. What’s terrifying about Todd Kohlhepp? He’s not the type of serial killer you see in the movies. He doesn’t collect body parts in his fridge. He doesn’t taunt the media with riddles. He seems like a normal guy who owns a successful real estate company. Listen as his last surviving victim describes how he killed her boyfriend and locked her up in a shipping container for weeks. And that's just the beginning. SUBSCRIBE NOW Apple Podcasts: tiny.cc/PretendApplePodcast Google Play: tiny.cc/PretendGooglePlay Stitcher: tiny.cc/PretendStitcher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Previously on Pretend Radio we witnessed the birth of a con man. A man started his criminal career as a street thug and worked his way up to car insurance scam artist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part one of the Birth of a Con Man, hear how man became a career criminal—a con-man. First, he started scamming auto insurance companies. Then the con got bigger and more elaborate. You see, that’s how it works. Once a con man gets away with it, they have to do it again. But the next time, the con is bigger and more complex. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the Prophet part 3, we’ll look at the Word of Faith Fellowship from a completely different lens. We’ll hear from current sect members and get their version of the story. Plus, you'll hear the latest on trial against five ministers accused of beating and kidnapping Michael Fenner. If you enjoy the show, consider donating a dollar: https://patreon.com/user?u=5971503&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=creatorshare2 Follow us on: Twitter: @pretend_radio Facebook: www.facebook.com/PretendRadioPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

John Cooper remembers one of the Word of Faith Fellowship ministers commanding him to beat his wife. He also describes his family’s attempt to what he describes as a cult. Then it finally happened. John escaped. We’ll listen to secret recordings of pastor Jane Whaley trying to lure him back. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

///UPDATE/// Start with Season 3, episode 1. After covering this cult, I was personally invited by the cult leader to spend the day with her. You won't want to miss it. ///UPDATE/// The Prophet part 1 explores The Word of Faith Fellowship. You will hear about the accused cult leader, Pastor Jane Whaley, who many inside the sect believe is a prophet with direct communication with God. John Cooper describes the day 20 to 30 sect members surrounded and attacked him. He also shares secret recordings of Pastor Jane Whaley commanding someone to throw someone down to the ground. Plus, you’ll hear “blasting prayers” — ear-piercing crying sessions meant to cast out demons. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

PRETEND is a documentary-style podcast about con artists and real people pretending to be someone else. Javier Leiva interviews real con artists, snake oil salesmen, and former cult members–anyone living a lie. PRETEND is consistently in the top True Crime Podcasts in U.S., UK, Canada, and Australia. It has been featured in the New York Times, the BBC, and New York Magazine. In 2018, Vulture named PRETEND one of the top 52 True Crime podcasts in the U.S. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices