299: An Invitation to the In-Between

An Invitation to the In-Between

Brett: [00:00:00] Hello. I am Brett Terpstra. You are listening to Overtired. I, it was in a tribute to, to the queen. I just, I figured,

I figured I’d do a, a Python, a Python

tribute to the, to the

queen. Um,

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Very slowly. Silently. Exactly.

Brett: I’m, I’m Brett Terpstra. You’re listening to Overtired. I am here as always with Jeff Severns Guntzel. Uh, Christina Warren has the week off. She got her vaccine and is recovering, uh, from a couple nights of insomnia that I think we can all relate to. We have a special guest this week. We are joined by rabbi Eric out of Athens, Georgia home of REM.

How’s it going,

Eric?

jeffrey_merged: good to, and I’m, I’m meeting you for the first time. I’ve heard you [00:01:00] on Brett’s podcast, but

Naming bands is hard

Eric: And nice to meet you, Jeff I

and, uh, and, the B 50 twos and KLAS local

42, my

jeffrey_merged: The

Brett: Yes. Eric is in a band called KLAS

local. Is it 42 or

Eric: 42.

Brett: What does the 42 refer

Eric: It’s just the uh, the lead of the

band wanted a name that sounded like a

labor union. So he just

jeffrey_merged: What was the band thinking? Fellers union, uh, back from the nineties, there was another band

Brett: Street sweepers. No.

jeffrey_merged: That’s a

great name. It’s a great

name.

Eric: Oh, I have a, I have a, I have a, note, uh, filled with

band titles. Like

jeffrey_merged: oh yeah,

Eric: I, I, have

like

dozens, dozens.

Brett: That is the hardest part

jeffrey_merged: thing in the world. That’s like, it’s amazing. Any band survives

naming itself?

Brett: so I had a band in high school that was called Moom man auto, which isn’t a horrible name, but it, it came about because we had spent weeks. [00:02:00] Arguing over what we should call our band. And eventually we had a chemistry book and the authors of the book were

Moom man and Otto, and we’re like, fuck it.

We’re that’s, that’s our name?

jeffrey_merged: like an academic paper reference.

Brett: with two man with two ends. And we kept that. We

kept it like straight up

Moom man auto

jeffrey_merged: That’s amazing. That’s good. Like, um, my wife and I were, were reminiscing of the, the heyday of the very long band name. Like, um, I love you, but I have chosen darkness or there was a band in, which is an amazing name. There was a band in Minneapolis called Siegels screaming. Kiss her, kiss her

Normalize sleeping at shows

Brett: or God speed.

You black

Eric: I That’s the one I was just thinking of. Yep.

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. I mean

Brett: felt I fell asleep at that

show.

jeffrey_merged: Well, that’s actually nice sleeping music in my

Brett: it is, it is. I got those, uh, the, the seats at front row behind the glass up by the bar.[00:03:00]

jeffrey_merged: Ooh.

Brett: Uh, what did I did I say at

first a

jeffrey_merged: yeah, yeah.

Brett: first a that, that

sounded

weird in my head.

jeffrey_merged: didn’t say a club. I don’t think, but

I could be

Brett: at first Ave up, uh, behind the plexiglass on the, on the, on the balcony level. Um, and I just sat there in a bar stool and fell

asleep

and it was a

pleasant nap.

I, I can’t complain. I like, I like got speed. Just

jeffrey_merged: the, the idea of like napping at

shows is really, we’ve really missed a chance culturally, to make that a norm. Like, I just feel like I’ve fallen asleep. I love going to see classical music and I will often fall asleep at some point. And it’s the nicest little nap in the world.

Eric: An expensive one, but I

jeffrey_merged: super expensive.

Well, I’m awake for most of it, you

know, but

they always play a couple things. You didn’t come for, you know, like any

band

Brett: it’s PLE it’s pleasant to wake up and realize you’re in the

middle of a, a,

show you wanted to see. It’s a, it’s a great way to

wake.

jeffrey_merged: that [00:04:00] is max Richter has a, the composer has an album called sleep. That’s a, that’s the actual composition is like 24 hours

long and

Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

jeffrey_merged: And the idea is you do go and you

sleep to it. Um, which is just like,

awesome.

Eric: I feel like it’s in an app literally

called sleep. I could

jeffrey_merged: there is actually an app for it. Yeah, totally.

Brett: we need to add this

show. No, it’s max Richter.

jeffrey_merged: Max Richter sleep. Yeah. I mean, I actually was just, I just took a, uh, late morning nap to it cause I was feeling a little under the weather. It’s my napping. Totally. My napping music. Anyway, Eric, um, people who have listened to Brett podcasts have, have met you before, but I was wondering if you could kind of introduce

yourself,

Meet Rabbi Eric Linder (again)

Eric: Yeah. So, uh, I’m a rabbi in Athens, Georgia. I’ve been here 10 years, uh, decided to be a rabbi. The, the, the joke I tell people is when I realized I would not be the

saxophonist for James Brown, I decided to be a rabbi, but, uh,

jeffrey_merged: so, [00:05:00]

Eric: right. It was one or the other, no, nothing else. Uh, I started college as a music major on saxophone.

And, um, you know, I grew up what I’ll call fairly mainline reform Judaism. So reform Judaism is a, is a denomination of Judaism that, uh, leans more to the liberal side. And I was active in youth group. And I, I, I made friends in Hebrew school. I went to undergrad at university of Florida and got involved in some Jewish activities there with Hillel and other things like that.

But it was really when I went to a summer camp, which is actually just about an hour from Athens in near a small town called Helen Georgia. Have either of you been there by chance?

jeffrey_merged: no.

Eric: It’s a weird little town. It’s a very touristy, it’s like a, it looks like a Bulgarian. Dollhouse has come to life and you’re walking around in it, like Google pictures of Helen, Georgia.

You’ll

jeffrey_merged: Okay. Okay.

Eric: Um, and lots of like fudge places and funnel cakes and

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. [00:06:00] Okay. I get it. I get it. I’m starting to a, picture’s

starting to

form.

Eric: you go. Um, and so there’s a Jewish summer camp, uh, very close to there that I went to as a counselor. And that kind of started this journey for me. And now I’ve been a rabbi 16

years, I think.

jeffrey_merged: 16 years.

Eric: yeah, it’s

crazy. Uh, started in Omaha, Nebraska at a synagogue. There had a wonderful

jeffrey_merged: way I, I have, most of my working life is spent in Omaha.

Eric: Oh, funny.

jeffrey_merged: you where we’re in Omaha.

Eric: Oh, right. I mean right in the heart of it, I was, uh, in

Dundee.

jeffrey_merged: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Eric: and still have lots of good friends there and, uh, keep in touch with folks. And then I moved here to Athens and like two weeks after I moved here, I met the woman. That would be my wife, which is hysterical because I, Athens is the smallest Jewish community I’ve ever lived in.

So like, it, it is, I mean, I, I went to rabbinical school in New York, New York city, and then Omaha is about 5,000

Jews. And then [00:07:00] Athens, nobody, if you don’t count students, it’s probably 500 or so. I mean, nobody really knows, of course. And you know, I had this vision of being on J date and like driving to Atlanta, you know, once or twice a week, going on these blind dates and was not excited about that prospect.

And, you know, I met Emily, uh, through a congregant at a retirement party and now we have

two kids and

that That’s

it,

jeffrey_merged: That’s

Brett: Was it, one of those,

you,

you

need to meet my, my neighbor or my daughter kind of

Eric: No. She walked into this party and I was, and I

asked, um, the person who retired his wife, I said, Lauren, do you know who this woman is? She said, yes. And she’s recently single and Jewish and stereotypically, my wife does not present as looking Jewish. She’s tall blonde

hair, blue eyes. So, um,

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Awesome. So you’re like, yes. Okay. Yes, the signals were not there, but now I know. Where, where did [00:08:00] you go to school? In New York.

Eric: It’s so it’s called Hebrew union college is the seminary and it’s right

by NYU, downtown fourth and Broadway

jeffrey_merged: My, um, My, wife went to union theological

seminary up near

Columbia

Eric: sure.

jeffrey_merged: and, uh, and took some classes across the street.

Um, at the what, what is the

school across

Eric: J JTS.

jeffrey_merged: the JTS. Yeah. Jewish

theological

Eric: what did, what did she take there? Like what

jeffrey_merged: She, um, well she was studying

theologies of evil and, uh, and also feminist theology.

Uh she’s like she likes to party, you know,

Eric: Well, it’s like my wife’s specialty is PTSD

and sexual trauma. It’s

jeffrey_merged: See. Yeah. Yeah. So I can picture already the books that lay around the house. Like that was, I remember when she, we had our first child living in New York city when she was still in school. And, um, and, and it was almost like he was waiting for her to finish this paper on evil. It was just literally just a paper on evil.

And, um, and she had a book laying [00:09:00] around that. Just the biggest word you could see on it was just evil, you know, and she’s like waiting for this baby to come. And it was like, as soon as she handed in that paper, she started going into labor and within hours we were in a taxi going to the hospital. I was like, just needed that, that evil

paper

Eric: That’s right. Just get it out. Get it.

jeffrey_merged: don’t wanna bring that into the whole labor process.

Anyhow. That’s awesome.

Eric: the Odyssey is one of my favorite Tencent

words that, you know,

jeffrey_merged: a good tenent word, that’s a 25% word, but you, okay. So you’re a rabbi and I’m looking at you and, and like Brett, you have framed black and white pictures in musical instruments behind you. Um, so can you tell, tell me, tell us a little bit about

that.

Eric: Yeah. So, you know, music has always been huge for me. I mean, I, I, honest to God, remember when I was in sixth grade and going to like the, some open house for people interested in band, and I picked out the saxophone purely because it had a lot of buttons and I just, I liked the mechanics of it. And, [00:10:00] um, I’ve always found joy in listening to music, learning about music, certainly playing it.

Uh, it’s a huge part of what draws me to Judaism, what both drew me in and in terms of, I guess, how I present Judaism, if that makes sense, you know, through music and, and through musical teachings. Um, so yeah, I have this studio in my basement. It’s it’s, as my wife likes to make fun. It’s one of my man caves that she’s allowed me.

Um, but yeah, it’s a lot of fun down here. A lot of

electronic keyboards and drums and, and stuff

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. What’s the other cave.

Eric: So the other cave

is, yeah, well, so next to it is, well, it, it could be my study. It’s, it’s, it’s become a bourbon room just to my left that uh, that’s it’s the combination of pandemic and

children somehow

that.

Um, and then I have a, a whole video game. Well, it’s, it’s

the general playroom, but, [00:11:00] um,

jeffrey_merged: all right, hold on. Let’s just, let’s talk

about that. Let’s talk about the video game room.

Brett: I wanna, I wanna point out one thing because nobody can see it, but the lighting in the man cave, you’re currently in with all the musical instruments,

you have some

like maybe Scots lighting going on.

It’s gorgeous. you have the best

jeffrey_merged: It’s true. It’s true.

Brett: ever seen.

Eric: that you say that Brett, because it’s because a lot of bulbs are they’re all BR 30, like flood lights. But literally there’s only three on, because they’re all burned out. The electrician was here last week.

Brett: It looks beautiful.

Eric: speaking of like stereotypical Jewish guy that

doesn’t

know

anything about, you know, electronics. I have the electrician here thinking like it’s some complicated mistake

with wiring. He’s like, these bulbs

are

bad.

jeffrey_merged: Oh, right,

Eric: Here’s $150 to tell me that. Thank you.

jeffrey_merged: That’s amazing. And a little bourbon. That’s incredible. Okay. So you have a, a video game room. It is. It is. How old are your kids?

Eric: at two and a half in six [00:12:00] months.

jeffrey_merged: So this is truly your video game room. Let’s

hear about it.

Eric: but it will be theirs. It will.

jeffrey_merged: sure.

Of course. That’s why That’s uh,

it’s it’s under that, that you, uh,

build it, right?

Like, yeah. Yeah. I build this future for my children. Um, so what’s the what’s what’s what would I see if I

walk in

Eric: Oh yeah. I mean, Xbox PlayStation. Um, I’ve been playing with, uh, you know, about the Phillips hubs. So I have a sync box. So if I’m really feeling

geeky, I can sync the lights to the

TV and the

jeffrey_merged: Nice, nice. That’s awesome. Do you have the, do you have the PlayStation five or do you have

me too, but nobody else it’s like my, my poor teenagers are like, I wanna play with people on this thing, but

nobody has it.

Eric: Yeah. So we’re, we’re in

Jeff. Let, let,

jeffrey_merged: yes. do it. You gotta get got lucky. Got lucky. Um, do you do any, do you mess with any vintage video game stuff?

Eric: like, like

jeffrey_merged: gaming either?

Just like, yeah.

Any, any [00:13:00] interpretation

of

Eric: yeah, so I have emulators, I actually have an arcade cabinet that I, I got from myself. Um,

Brett: the question right there is, do you have an arcade

Eric: or

something. Yeah.

jeffrey_merged: yeah. I, um, hold on. I’m gonna grab something,

Eric: Yeah. Tell me everything.

Brett: while, while he’s running off, have you seen the go V lighting stuff?

Eric: No.

Brett: It’s super affordable compared to hu. And you can like hook it up to a microphone and have like rope lights and, and back lights, all like dance to music. It’s actually

really good.

Eric: Go V.

Brett: G

O V

Eric: Okay, look, look it up.

jeffrey_merged: So I built this for my kids out of a like ancient electronics project box, uh, that I got at this amazing surplus store called Axman in town. And everybody I’m just holding up like kind of a joy, it’s a joystick with a bunch of bunch of buttons and it actually has

a.

Eric: fighter. Uh,

jeffrey_merged: has [00:14:00] that look. And it has like a seven inch screen that,

uh,

is actually normally hooked up to it.

But I’m upgrading it.

Brett: to a 10 inch.

jeffrey_merged: uh, no, I’m upgrading the electronics inside and, and putting speakers in and

Eric: so is it a raspberry pie or

jeffrey_merged: yeah, it has a raspberry pie in it. I’m

totally obsessed, um, with them anyway. Well, you have a lot of fun rooms in your house. Um, that’s great.

Eric: yes. So that’s something else that right when I got here, um, met now a very dear friend, who’s the one of the, uh, heads of our band and found out I played sex and I sat in with the band and, and it’s great, cuz there’s obviously overlap culturally with Judaism, but you know, a lot of congregants come to our shows and it’s just a nice way to integrate with

the community and, and be involved in the music scene and

all that stuff

jeffrey_merged: That’s awesome. So how did you and Brett meet.

Eric: we met because I annoyed him on Twitter. I think I just had

Brett: sounds about right.

Eric: OmniFocus questions,

[00:15:00] automation,

Brett: Yeah. You hired

Eric: apple script.

Brett: you, you you hired me as a consultant for some of your crazier scripting stuff. And eventually, like, it got

to a

point where I was like attending your temple services and I wasn’t charging

you

anymore.

Eric: Yeah, Jeff, be careful. well, yeah, I mean, I think I was asking you all these questions and you were so nice and responding and I just, I was like, you know what, rather than like one at a time and, you know, ignoring you at all hours, can I hire

you for an hour and, you know, pay you for this

expertise is

jeffrey_merged: I basically did the same thing.

Brett: is the way you worm your way into Brett’s

life is, uh,

jeffrey_merged: That’s how you end up on his podcast. I also like the idea that apple script is like the gateway to converting to Judaism. I mean, you all know how someone says they’re doing apple script, you know what they

mean?

Eric: that’s somewhere

jeffrey_merged: yeah, that’s right. That’s right. [00:16:00]

Well, should we do, uh, should we do our mental health corner?

Brett: Yeah, let’s let’s let’s do that. And then we’ll, we’ll hit a sponsor then, then I kind of wanna talk about like an atheist

attending

temple.

Mental Health Corner

jeffrey_merged: perfect. Sounds good. Um, it’s a, it doesn’t have to be, how is your mental health? It can be a mental health checking of any sort. Uh, you, you wanna start you, are you feeling, are you feeling really brave? Eric?

Eric: I mean, I, I could start, I I’ve listened to you all a few times. I, I. um, I have a sense of what’s happening even regardless of my mental health. Um, so we’re actually, it’s a, we’re actually in a, a super interesting time in the Jewish calendar. Um, we’re right before our Jewish high holidays of Han and Kippur Han actually starts Sunday.

And the month prior to Rohan, it’s called Elul is meant as a time for introspection and really kind of thinking about your life and your [00:17:00] priorities and what a lot of people do. My myself included is try and have either a meditation or reading for everyday of Elul that either focuses on an aspect of introspection or forgiveness, which is another huge theme.

And so in many ways, mental health, you know, in kind of capital letters is what this month is about. Um, at the, as a rabbi though, I don’t know that my mental health is as balanced as Judaism kind of would want it to be because I’m, you know, I’m trying to promote, it’s like a physician healed myself kind of situation where I’m, you know, giving it to the congregation hopefully, but not necessarily always taking it for myself.

And so I’ve really been, especially as Roshan comes closer and closer, I’ve really tried to kind of take those themes to heart. Um, and it’s different with kids too, like just thinking about time and how, [00:18:00] you know, we’re, we’re always in a rush to get to the next thing, or certainly I am. And like my two and a half year old, if he wants to jump, doesn’t matter that dad has an appointment or, you know, or it’s lunchtime or whatever.

So, um, that’s kind of, uh, where I am. And, and what I’ve been thinking about in

terms of, uh, mental health lately.

Brett: Yeah,

jeffrey_merged: to have a framework.

Eric: It is. And the other thing too, is like, without a framework, people don’t do it. Like, that’s why there’s apps. That’s why there’s like all of these methodologies,

because we, it, it helps.

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. Yeah, For sure.

For sure. It’s funny. You mentioned the kids like I, so I have two teenage boys. Um, but when I, when the first home was born, I remember having this just in those hours after having this distinct feeling that I could see further and, and, uh, and almost like this opening of a, of a void or something, like avoid sounds like a negative connotation, but like, I felt like I could see [00:19:00] further beyond just whatever kind of shortsightedness I had been living my, my life with up until having a child.

Right. But then really

Brett: heard that description.

jeffrey_merged: but really quickly it becomes you can’t see past

your fucking nose. Right? Like, like

And I think that’s such a funny, such a funny

ju

Eric: Absolutely. That’s a great, yeah.

Brett: like, it’ll, it’ll never happen to me. I’ve taken surgical, uh, precautions to ensure that I never become a father. But when I hear people talk about like the perspective change that happens when you have a kid, uh, like I find myself very curious, like I’ve always considered myself too selfish to have children.

Um, I am too obsessed with like figuring out my own life that I, I don’t feel qualified to, um, inflict my, uh, insecurities, I guess, uh, my, my lack of direction onto another [00:20:00] life form. Uh, but the response I get from people who are happy, parents is often like none of that matters. Once you have the kid, like everything changes, your, your perspective changes your, your, what you thought was selfishness then gets directed towards a new life form.

I, I,

that’s curious. I,

believe that could be, uh, a situation.

jeffrey_merged: Yeah, 10 years of 10 years of high triage will definitely

the selfishness out of you.

Eric: And, and to flip it too. I mean, I think there is a, not in a negative way. I, I have a whole thing on selfishness gets a bad rap sometimes, but, um, in, in a way it,

your children is extension of your, of yourself. So it, it, it, it almost like it’s selfishness in that way too. Like, they are a part of you, so it’s not like you’re giving up something to

be with them.

Like it it’s like, it’s the same thing in a.[00:21:00]

jeffrey_merged: a nice way to put it. That’s a nice way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Having kids can also be the ultimate selfish act, right. Like

Eric: I mean, yeah. I mean, like, look at, you know, overpopulation and the planet and the world. I

jeffrey_merged: right,

Eric: don’t, I don’t want our mental health to now go down thinking of

Brett: if, if, if

you want a list of all the reasons not to have

kids, we can do

Eric: AB it’s very easy. Very,

jeffrey_merged: too late for me. Um, uh, I can, I can go. I, you know, I, um, I am just, uh, really benefiting from, uh, probably my eighth or ninth week with a new therapist. And, um, after having one for the same therapist for probably three years, she retired and I’ve mentioned this on the show before, but I, um, it is an incredible thing to generally in life.

It’s an incredible thing to watch a good professional, do what they do, but it’s a really incredible thing to be held by the [00:22:00] sort of skills of a professional in the case of therapy in a way that, um, Uh, that I, in, in this case, I just, I’m noticing after years after decades of kind of circling around some of the same things, all of a sudden, I feel like I’m standing somewhere different with those things.

I’m not, I haven’t healed from any issues. Not that healing is a final state. Right. But like, but, um, but I’ve just been so grateful, uh, to have this particular therapist at this particular time in my life and, um, and is a great argument for why, why we try so hard to find the right therapist in the first place, cuz it doesn’t always work.

Um, I’ve had to, you know, I’ve had to let one go before, but, but it just is an amazing thing. Now that said she only does, uh, online therapy and I realized that after eight weeks or so, it is strange to not have been in a physical space with a person that you’ve shared this much with, you know [00:23:00]

Eric: My therapist, I is online as well. And that’s the only way I know him. Yeah,

jeffrey_merged: yeah, yeah. yeah. And, and like she’s technically savvy. Thank God. My, my retired, uh, therapist, the first, probably four to six appointments of COVID. I was doing tech support for 20 minutes of the hour and I was not actually in a good place. So I was just like, can we, can you figure this out some other fucking time

Eric: Oh my God. I

jeffrey_merged: can you figure this out?

Uh, you know, she’s like, well, I’m just not hearing it now. And I’m, and then she got a kitten at the same time and the kitten was jumping on. It was just like, it was insane. Anyway, just grateful for that. And, and as always recommending, you know, if you feel like you’ve never been to therapy or like it’s been too long, uh, it’s so worth, it’s so worth looking into it and trying to find a match.

So

Brett: Oh, I can follow that

up.

jeffrey_merged: All right. Hit me.

Brett: So, okay. My, I, I recently got a new therapist. I got a therapist. This is my [00:24:00] first real therapist. Um, and if you had talked to me last week after my weekly, like right now, I’m, I’m going every week. Um, and if you had talked to me last week, I would’ve been a lot more skeptical because I went to see him in person.

Like I have the option to do either telehealth or in person visits. So I was like, I’m gonna try it in person. And I showed up and the session ended up being like, mostly we talked. Like, uh, media, uh, our favorite movies and, uh, Neil Gaman and adaptations of, of comic books into movies. And it was an intriguing conversation, but it’s not what I ever thought therapy would be about.

And, and he was like, yeah, no, it’s good to just, you know, establish a, a personal base, uh, like groundwork, uh, to get to know each other. So I was like, all right, I’m, I’m gonna let this one [00:25:00] go. I’ll, I’ll pay for a, a shoot the shit session with this guy. And, and we’ll see what happens. And then this week, uh, I went back to telehealth just due to schedule and holy shit, like we, I learned so much.

This week, like my therapist, he, he, he, he likes to explain things. Um, like I expected to spend a lot more time talking about myself, um, and have him nod and writing a notebook, uh, just based on what I’ve seen of therapy in movies. Um, but he, he has a lot of input on what I’m feeling and what I’m going through.

And he’s actually given he’s younger than me. Uh, he actually has a lot, especially when it comes to bipolar, uh, ADHD, religious trauma, like he, he knows his shit and he proved that this last week, um, the big takeaway for me [00:26:00] was, uh, he suggested, so I quit drinking, uh, officially two years ago, had some relapses, um, and I was framing them as failures.

Uh, Like just the term relapse in and of itself is a loaded term. And like with heroin, I have good reason not to do heroin. Like I ruined people’s lives with my heroin addiction. Uh, alcohol I’ve never hurt anybody. Like maybe I got in a fight once when I was a teenager. Um, cuz I was drunk, but I’ve never hurt anybody.

I’ve never stolen from anybody. I’ve never, I’ve never even like emotionally injured as far as I know someone because I was drunk. So I don’t have this strong, like I can never drink again. It will hurt people. Uh, I just, I, I shouldn’t drink again because I know I’m not super [00:27:00] responsible with it and, and it’s not healthy.

Like it’s, it’s bad for my teeth. It’s bad for my, my liver or whatever. And, uh, and so he, he wants me to attempt to reframe my relationship with alcohol and like the times that I have quote unquote relapsed, uh, I’ve been like, I’ve had a bottle of whiskey in the basement and, and I sneak it and I use some mouthwash and go about my life.

Um, and maybe don’t sneak alcohol in the basement, maybe join my girlfriend for a glass of wine when she’s having a glass of wine and maybe, uh, attempt to drink socially and responsibly and not, not hide a bottle of whiskey in the basement. So it was a, it was a great conversation. Like we’re, we’re, I’m gonna attempt a new, a new paradigm.

If it doesn’t work out, if it proves that I just cannot be responsible, then we [00:28:00] look at more drastic, like, uh, complete abstinence, but it was like, he, he. Saw me in a way that, like, if you go to a 12 step program, uh, you, you go in, you just, by showing up there, you’re admitting you have a problem. And the only option is a hundred percent abstinence.

Uh, and he, and the way it’s framed is not necessarily, uh, helpful to people that might be in more of a gray area. So it was, it was enlightening. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m looking forward to this reframing of my relationship with alcohol as an attempt maybe, maybe, maybe AA is right. Maybe I don’t have a, a chance in hell of ever drinking responsibly.

Maybe. Uh, gonna find out, gonna gonna test the waters. So all this to say, like the [00:29:00] guy has really, he proved himself to me in the last session that he sees me as a person, he understands where I’m coming

from. And yeah, I’m really looking forward to my next

session with him.

Eric: that’s awesome.

Yeah, that’s great.

jeffrey_merged: That is so good.

Brett: Yeah.

jeffrey_merged: Yeah.

Failure. I feel like it’s like a good, a good therapist. Helps. At least in my case, my therapists, when they’ve been good, have always been so good at stopping me when I I’m clocking myself upside the head and making me kind of open the fists and you

know

Brett: So, he asks me what’s the antonym of shame. And, and my answer was pride. Like the opposite of shame is pride,

but he’s like, no, it’s compassion. The opposite of

shame is compassion. and and I was like, holy shit. Yeah. Like the things that I have figured out, especially in relationship to my ADHD, uh, is compassion, like [00:30:00] understanding myself in a way that lets me, uh, feel compassion for that kid.

You know, like to look back and say, this is life was rough for this kid. And I feel compassion for him. He wasn’t, he wasn’t lazy. He wasn’t a failure. He, he deserves compassion and, and same with like religious trauma and all of the shit that I’ve gone through with that, uh, compassion like that. That’s kind of the, the keyword.

From my last session, it’s just compassion, especially self-compassion, but that translates to compassion for others. Like how can you possibly exist in the world? If you paint everyone in black and white terms, good and evil and have, have no compassion for, for people’s stories for, for where people are coming from.

So that was actually a, that was

kind of a, an eyeopening thing for me.

Eric: Yeah. And that,

that goes so much toward, uh, Jewish teaching too. Especially during this [00:31:00] time. I mean, it really does. And again, not trying to convert anyone, but just the resonance there of, you know, the, the Judaism and I mean, the high holidays as a microcosm of that is all about us moving forward. And you know, my wife, uh, we were talking before the show, she’s a therapist.

Her specialty is, uh, cognitive behavioral. So like your therapist, Brett, a lot of talking, you know, it’s not the Freudian of like, yes. Tell me about yours.

Brett: And how does that make

you

feel?

Eric: Right. Exactly. But you know, the, the, I, one thing that she, her and I talk about all the time when I have, we, we, I have what we coin on. We sometimes where it’s just like the middle of the day and like, I’ll have a few hours free and I just don’t feel like doing anything and, or, or I’ll feel regret that I’m not doing anything.

And,

you know, we talk about all the time that like you go down that rabbit hole where then you just feel regretful or shame and, and to use your word, when you feel [00:32:00] compassion, you’re motivated maybe to do something productive or good in the world. And that’s, I mean, that’s what Judaism is all about is taking our mistakes or what seemed like failures or places where we didn’t hit the mark.

And rather than beat ourselves up about it, just do better just starting today. Just do better.

Brett: As a bit of backstory. Um, Eric and I, uh, we started a podcast called an atheist and a rabbi, uh, something, something, I forget exactly what the title was, but, um, Eric has always accepted that I am an atheist and has never attempted to convince me that God exists, but has offered me like what, what wisdom he can from a Jewish perspective.

And he has invited me to temple and I have attended with like, as an atheist, I have attended temple and have learned from what Eric, [00:33:00] uh,

I

don’t, it’s

not preaching. What, what is it you do

at

temple?

Eric: I mean, if I give a preaching sermonizing

Brett: It’s a sermon. It’s a sermon. Yeah, but it’s it’s you don’t have to accept God. To, to take something away from, from Eric’s temple or probably from most Jewish temples.

Like, I, I don’t have a lot of experience, but like, uh, there’s been a, there’s been an understanding and I think if I’m not mistaken,

you have atheist in your congregation, do you not?

Eric: Oh 100% and that’s not atypical in Jewish communities either. And you know, the, the way, the, the way I frame it, I mean, I, I could go on for hours about this. I, I’m not, I promise, uh, to all the listeners, this is gonna be very short, but you, if you picture a Venn diagram with religion being one circle and God being one circle, there’s definitely an [00:34:00] overlap, but they are absolutely not the same

Brett: yeah.

jeffrey_merged: Yeah. That’s nicely put,

Brett: What’s the, is it a lo Aloha,

ALO Heim. What’s the Jewish word for

God Elohim

Eric: Elohim is, is one name there’s there’s many, but that’s Yeah.

Brett: Yeah. I come from the church of yawe

jeffrey_merged: I

heard of that, dude. Um, I truly hate to do this, but we

have to read a sponsor.

Brett: Yes, let’s do it

jeffrey_merged: minutes in

Brett: Oh, man.

jeffrey_merged: call it 30.

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jeffrey_merged: Ding D ding,

Bearing witness to ourselves

jeffrey_merged: ding, you know, something that I think is really amazing about finding, being able to have compassion, especially as you were talking about it, Brett, like towards like your younger, younger self, is that when you can do that, when you find yourself able to have that compassion, you’re also bearing witness in, in a way that almost nobody else could, like, if you’re thinking I’ve had this experience recently looking at things when I was younger and, and finding some compassion for myself and understanding, or kind of making room for understanding what that [00:37:00] experience was like for me also ends up being that I serve as sort of a witness to it.

Brett: define this term for define, define, bearing

witness, cuz for me,

that’s a loaded term coming from a fundamentalist background.

jeffrey_merged: It comes from, I mean, it’s absolutely rooted

in, uh, in a theological sense, right. Because it’s the idea of bearing witness to suffering, bearing witness to, you know, what, what is true about somebody, um, that maybe that person can’t see or bearing witness to a system that is, that is doing something to people that, you know, so it really does have its roots.

Cuz the idea is like if it’s seen then all that, all that needs to happen can happen once it’s seen. Right?

Brett: Yeah.

Yeah.

jeffrey_merged: It’s my sermon for the day.

Eric: That’s a good one. No it is. And you know, people forget too, forgiving yourself is as important as forgiving

others.

Brett: That, that I have [00:38:00] definitely learned, like the thing that has allowed me to move forward, um, like getting ADHD and bipolar diagnoses were huge for me. Um, they gave me an understanding of why my life has gone the way it’s gone. Um, but the process of forgiving myself, the process, like even day to day, like, like you were talking about, like you have some free time and you feel guilty about all the things you don’t feel like doing and being able to forgive yourself, being able to find that compassion.

Is what leads to actually doing something worthwhile. Um, and from, so from like a, a grand scheme of things, forgiving childhood me to like forgiving me for not feeling like doing this, this thing that maybe needs to be done. Maybe it’s just an idea that I wish I could bring to fruition. Uh, but I just don’t have the [00:39:00] motivation and finding that forgiveness really

leads to actual like productivity.

Eric: And all, you know, I, I also, I, I, I think I’m hearing my wife in my ear too. Like, it doesn’t mean anything we do is okay. And like, you know, just like you could do anything and you’re just like, it’s okay. Just forgive yourself. But don’t let that mistake be kind of, you know, is a biblical phrase, uh, from the Torah, uh, be a stumbling block for the blind.

Like don’t let that mistake stop you from then doing the right thing or doing better. And that’s really the, the key, I

think.

Brett: Yeah,

Eric: Which of course is easier to say than to do. I mean, I, I say, you know, rabbis often write the sermons that like they need to hear, and that is 100% true for me as, so I’m by no means.