296: Thought Bubbles in the Brain Matrix

Thought Bubbles in the Brain Matrix

[00:00:00] Brett:

[00:00:01] Welcome to Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severns Guntzel. How’s it going, Christina?

[00:00:12] Christina: Pretty good. Pretty good.

[00:00:14] Brett: And Jeff, how are you?

[00:00:15] Jeff: I’m good.

[00:00:16] Brett: I tried something new this week, instead of just saying how you guys doing and expecting the two of you to vye for dibs. I split it up. I learned that from Jeff. Uh, when, one time when we had multiple people on, I noticed that he very specifically like duck, duck, goosed people into talking. Jeff is a professional interviewer.

[00:00:40] Title First, Episode Second

[00:00:40] Brett: I have a lot to learn from him. Um, so I wanna start off by just saying that I really wanna title this episode, thought bubbles in the brain matrix. And I would like to tell you why. Um, so my girlfriend Elle uh, she sometimes [00:01:00] has trouble remembering words. I don’t know if related to ASD or just a personality quirk, but she can put together like pictures of the things she wants to say.

[00:01:11] And she was trying to ask me about mind mapping, but she couldn’t remember the word mind mapping. And what she came up with by way of explanation was “thought bubbles in the brain matrix.” And, and I was able to put that together. I got that. I understood it. So here by explaining that I now I’ve now given us a reason to call the episode “thought bubbles in the brain matrix,” and immediately explained it to listeners who like maybe tuned in, because it was such a great title.

[00:01:41] Jeff: That’s great. This happens to me all the time. It’s like, I, the way I describe it is like I reach into the word bag and I just grab the wrong fucking word. So I just say whatever comes to mind, like “heffleprint”, like what it’s like, there are times when I’ll ask for something and I’ll just say that.

[00:01:58] And, and, and my [00:02:00] wife’s at the point where she can just be like, oh, you mean a spoon? Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:04] Brett: Well,

[00:02:04] Christina: That’s awesome.

[00:02:05] Brett: It’s interesting because I, it’s probably true of everybody, but I know that between Elle and I, and this is, uh, the first time I’ve ever had such clear communication with a partner. Um, but we have very different needs in the way things are said to us. Um, and we try to accommodate each other’s need, like, I, for example, if I, if I offer an idea and your first response is here’s what’s wrong with it.

[00:02:35] I hear that as like a no, instead of like, uh, that’s a good idea. Let’s see what we could do with it. I, I just hear that as a no. So I need like the first thing out of your mouth to be like, oh, that’s a great idea here’s a problem we might run into instead of jumping straight to the here’s, what’s wrong with the idea, uh, which is that’s the way Elle thinks, like she just accepts that, okay this is the idea we’re [00:03:00] working with, let’s start figuring out how to do it.

[00:03:03] Jeff: Not a shocker, Brett your love language is “yes, and.”

[00:03:09] Brett: Not a shocker. Yeah. Do you guys wanna do some mental health?

[00:03:15] Christina: Definitely.

[00:03:16] What are people for? (Mental Health Corner)

[00:03:16] Jeff: Hey man, you guys wanna go in the back room and do some mental?

[00:03:18] Christina: I like it.

[00:03:19] Brett: I got the good stuff. I got the

[00:03:20] Christina: I got the good stuff. Yeah.

[00:03:21] Brett: Who wants to start?

[00:03:23] Jeff: I could start. I have been just over the last week. There’s been just a lot going on. So we, we went to a video game convention, my boys and I, and their friends. I rented a couple of hotel rooms, using points. And so we stayed in the hotel where the convention was. It’s kinda like a 24-hour thing.

[00:03:42] I get outta that is being able to go downstairs at like 11 o’clock and play whatever pinball machines I want for a long time, for free, which is really wonderful. But also I was like responsible for, you know, like I, I would set up like a sandwich buffet for these kids, like every day, a couple times a day.

[00:03:57] And like just generally tracking these [00:04:00] two age groups around 13 and around 16. And, um, it was wonderful. And it was like, it was a lot to do, which was, but it was totally great. And then that was three days. And then the next day we went to the State Fair here in Minnesota for the whole day. Um, and then yesterday was like my first day back and I remembered I had scheduled with a good friend to take a walk.

[00:04:23] And, uh, I did that thing that happens to me all the time where I’m just like, oh man, I’m not ready for this right now. And I like came so close to canceling so many times, but I’ve been challenging myself lately to say yes, more often and trust that. Yes in general on balance, uh, makes me happier than no.

[00:04:45] And so I, I just decided not to cancel, which he didn’t even know was a yes, cuz it was already planned, you know, but that is, that is my way. And we had just a lovely night, we had a lovely dinner and a lovely walk in this nature reserve around here. And [00:05:00] then at the same time, a neighbor of ours who we are really close friends with, we have something called the border bar.

[00:05:05] It’s at our fence between our two houses. We meet there even in the winter when it’s really cold and, and we just kind of call it like it’s border bar time and we bring some drinks, you know, if someone’s not drinking, we bring some bubbly water. Otherwise someone makes cocktails whatever. And uh, and so they had invited us, uh, over for drinks in the hangout.

[00:05:23] And I wanted to say no, cause I was like Ahaha, but I was like, no, say yes, say yes. And, uh, anyway, so I’m just like, I find that when I say yes, I really never regret it. Like I might end up a little more tired than I would’ve liked to be. But when I say yes, even though I think I’d rather be alone is actually like the thinking I’d rather be alone is usually an indicator that probably I could use to hang out with some people, like when those people are like safe people, right.

[00:05:50] Like, you know, it’s gonna be pleasant. Like if anything, you’ll just have to leave earlier, then maybe they would want you to, or whatever. So anyway, I’m kind of playing with [00:06:00] I’m, I’m reminding myself of that. I go through phases of this or remind myself like yeah, just say yes. Just say yes. It’s probably gonna be good.

[00:06:06] Brett: heard the exact opposite from people who habitually say yes, who have to practice saying no. Um, and I’m a person like it took me until I was maybe 35 years old before I realized that if someone asked me to do something, even if it sounded cool, I was allowed to say no, uh, and conserve my energy and my time, because I would take on like every project, every crazy idea someone came to me with, I’m like, yeah, we can do that. Let’s fucking figure it out. Um, and, and I wore myself very thin doing that, which is, I guess, different than like saying yes to a social engagement, which I could probably do more of.

[00:06:47] Jeff: Yeah, no, I mean, where you’re at is more like that really important thing where you have to recognize that when you say yes, you’re saying yes to one thing, you’re saying no to a bunch of things. And often those things are your own peace of mind, [00:07:00] relationships, you know, things that are good for you.

[00:07:02] But for me, it’s almost comically, not that problem. It’s really just about like, when I say yes, what I’m saying no to is like essentially hiding. I am someone who for the most part will never be plagued by the problem of saying yes, too much.

[00:07:19] Brett: I have no one to say yes to. I have after 44 years I have essentially whittled away everyone who asks me to do social things. I can’t remember the last time that I had a yes or no to offer because no one invites me to do anything anymore. And I’m kind of okay with that. I’m, I’m very okay with that, but maybe I should get out.

[00:07:44] Christina: I was gonna say, I think that like that, cuz, cuz I think you’re exactly right. Like there’s the difference between agreeing, you know, to take on work stuff and the social things and to your point, like I I’m with you, Jeff. I’m somebody who I’m social and I go out with people, but I also have a tendency sometimes, especially the last two [00:08:00] years, cuz last two years have been terrible for all of us to like put off. You’re like, oh, you know, I can’t do it right now. Let let’s, we’re definitely gonna get together in the future, you know, to just like find an excuse to not do something. And I find like for my mental health, it’s actually really important for me to get out and do things because as you noted, Brett, like what’ll happen is, is if you say no too many times, people just stop asking and, and that, you know, is, is not great.

[00:08:25] So for me, this is something that I, I discovered, you know, that I wasn’t like, you know, as a younger kid, you know, younger teenager, it wasn’t something that I recognize as being really important to me, like being social is something that’s actually really important for my mental health and having actual time with other people.

[00:08:44] So, but it

[00:08:45] Brett: Like face-to-face time, not just Twitter time.

[00:08:47] Christina: Exactly. And Twitter time helps too, but really face to face time,

[00:08:50] Brett: I’m really good. At the Twitter time. Face-to-face. I don’t see anybody.

[00:08:54] Christina: My mental health, I find. Really is improved when, when I have like a more active in-person kind of social life. [00:09:00] And when you’re married and, you know, older, like it’s harder to make friends. And a lot of times, like, you know, the person you spend the most time with is your partner and that’s not great because at least for, for me, like, I can’t just have like just one person that, you know, I, I see all the time, like it’s actually really important for me – and I find that I, I do better in a lot of regards when I’m around other people. And so I have to similar to you, Jeff, I have to like, remind myself, like, no say yes, do these things go out because you might have some anxiety around it, you might have some other things, but it’s actually fundamentally really important to do, you know, that your overall mental health is gonna be a lot better. And, and it’s just, you know, once you do it, like you’ll appreciate it. And then it’ll like be easier to like, understand, okay, well, what are the things that I need to say no to and what are the things that, you know, I, I can, that’ll actually be really good if I go ahead and do.

[00:09:51] Jeff: Yeah, for sure. I also have this thing where like I get feedback from people that they enjoy being around me and, [00:10:00] and I don’t always believe that that could be true. And I think that there’s this. There’s this sort of weird, um, self-compassion chess move in, actually going out and, and giving of myself as well as receiving from people that is like, oh, it’s okay. I, I, I like to be seen, I like to be appreciated. I like to be able to offer up whatever it is I can offer up in relationship with this person. Um, just as much as I, I love receiving from them what they have to offer, and it’s kind of a silly kind of upside down thing, but I’ve, I’ve sometimes thought like I’ve played it out and like, you know, if I only stayed home and if, if everybody that tries to get me out completely gave up, which some people have I would, I think I would just like, I would not be on a good path.

[00:10:59] Brett: Yeah, [00:11:00] I feel attacked. To be honest, like there are a couple people in this town that I enjoy, um, as, as conversationalists. Um, but nobody that I feel as close to as some of my online friends, uh, friends that I see maybe once a year there’s, there’s nobody in like driving distance that I really crave seeing, or when I see them feel like I’ve really uh, spent my time well, and I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to have a satisfying social encounter and to feel very enriched by that. I don’t currently have any friends and that’s not to say there’s nobody cool in this town, cuz there really are. I’ve just, I haven’t forged the relationships and as Christina noted, uh, once you’re older and married, it’s hard to make new friends. Um, [00:12:00] I know they’re out there. I know I’ve had good conversations. Since I quit drinking again it’s been harder to like most of the good conversations I’ve had in this town have been not drunken conversations, but have happened in bars and have happened around alcohol.

[00:12:17] And there’s a new bar in town, uh, like a hipster bar, uh, opened by old people. And I think it would be like a hipster bar for old people,

[00:12:26] Jeff: like us,

[00:12:27] Brett: but it looks like the kind of place that I would be totally comfortable going, ordering a seltzer water or a Heineken Zero Zero, and just sitting and being social with people. Uh, without it feeling like the darker a bar is the more I need to drink. If it’s a well lit bar it’s basically a coffee house and, and I can, I can totally sit there.

[00:12:51] So I’m, I’m kind of curious to try reviving that, but yeah, there, there’s just nobody here [00:13:00] that is truly rewarding for me to hang out with.

[00:13:04] Jeff: I know one from Winona.

[00:13:06] Brett: Is he in Winona though?

[00:13:07] Jeff: No he’s from Winona.

[00:13:10] Brett: All the good people leave. There’s a guy here named Kalin Kalin Larson, who is an awesome guy, super smart. Um, he he’s a hacker. He makes crazy cool stuff. Um, he got obsessed with, uh, label printers and turned it into like a full-time business writing software because all label printer software sucks.

[00:13:36] Jeff: it’s terrible.

[00:13:37] Brett: It’s awful. And he fixed it. He like made, uh, like boutique label printer software that he sells for a hefty price, to people who actually wanna use their label printers. Um, and he’s, he’s, he’s brilliant. He’s one of my favorite people. He really is. I just, I’m not good at, I, I [00:14:00] really only make friends with other ADHD, people who converse the way that I do and who just mirror my quirks in a way that’s very comfortable for me. Um, and I don’t always realize that I’m talking to an ADHD person, but I will realize later that is why I got along very well with them.

[00:14:21] Um, yeah. Anyway, this, how did this become about me? This is

[00:14:25] Jeff: Well, I just want, but that’s fine. I just wanna wrap it unless anybody has anything else to say by saying that I, I don’t want to be suggesting that the only meaningful way to connect is in-person. In fact, I thank the gods that’s not the case because like, most of my social life happens, whether it’s like connecting on Zoom, if only because most of my friends are spread out across the country or the world or whatever, like it would be, you know, for one thing, super ableist to just be like, yeah, no, if I can’t get to the bar, I can’t go out on a walk. It doesn’t matter. [00:15:00] So it doesn’t count. Right. But like, so I really wanna be really super clear about that, that I know there are so many ways it’s really very much just me. It’s about me struggling to do in-person contact and about me saying yes to in-person contact. That’s the, that’s my that’s my personal challenge.

[00:15:21] Brett: I see my therapist in person tomorrow. Um,

[00:15:25] Jeff: oh yeah. Cuz last time it was online.

[00:15:26] Brett: Yeah, I will let you know. I will report back, uh, how that, how that, uh, differs for me.

[00:15:33] Jeff: Sounds good. That’s great. What about you, Christina? How you been?

[00:15:37] Christina: I’ve been fine, nothing really new to kind of updates since like our last episode, I’ve been fine. Um, like you, I totally agree. Like I love my online friendships and, and like interactions and whatnot. I’m just saying like, Seeing people is good.

[00:15:51] And I’m actually gonna see a bunch of people this weekend, because there are two parties I’m going to, I’m going to a, a, a weird hybrid birthday party. That’s gonna be a lot of fun that my friends are [00:16:00] having for their two kids who are very different ages. So that’ll be a lot of fun. And, um, then my, uh, my other friend, he is finally, the next day he’s having, um, a birthday party.

[00:16:09] His birthday was in may, but he had to reschedule. So, uh, barring any other things we’re gonna be getting together and I’m finally gonna see his new house. So I’m actually really excited about this because I, like I said, I, I do actually get a lot from being out and seeing people and like being social.

[00:16:27] And that’s the thing I think that I miss the that’s been the most different about my life now versus two and a half years ago is that, you know, I used to see people face-to-face every single day reliably. And now I work from home, which is fine. Um, I, I go into a studio once a week, but like, it’s, it’s, you know, I, but I don’t actually see any of my coworkers because we’re all remote and that’s, that’s great.

[00:16:51] Like, I love that we have that, but I do miss that, like interaction and, and stuff that I get with like actual [00:17:00] humans. Like, I, I, I, there could be too much of it, but I thrive off of it. And, and it’s something that has definitely made my life worse, not having. So I’m glad that, that I have that.

[00:17:09] Jeff: Awesome. House tours and cake. That’s in your future.

[00:17:12] Christina: Yep.

[00:17:14] Brett: I, uh, so I will, I will say, uh, cuz this is been a thread here, um, like going to MacStock, uh, this year it was a smaller MacStock and um, I really focused my attention on two new friends that I made. Uh, one, one I had met before, but with my ADHD brain, when he contacted me on Twitter to ask what I was up to this year, I was like, who the fuck is this?

[00:17:42] Um, and, and Elle was like, oh, that’s Shane. He, he’s a really good guy. You had a good time with him. I’m like, okay. So anyway, we end up hanging out with Shane and, and another friend that I met because we were, we were at a table [00:18:00] expecting, um, Dan, uh, from Agile to show up and he has a beard and he’s bald and a guy walks in matching his profile exactly and I just instinctively like, wave him over. It’s not Dan though. It’s this other guy that I’ve never met before. And he realizes very quickly that. It was a mistake, but asks if he can sit down anyway, becomes like our best friend for the weekend. And, uh, and we had some really cool, really fun conversations and I came home feeling much healthier for the social interaction.

[00:18:38] So I’m not immune to this. And I don’t mean to imply that I am, and I should also say I was every year I have a birthday party and the friends that I do actually connect with get invited and it got put off this year for various reasons and I haven’t had it yet and I do miss it. And, and [00:19:00] there are, there are people here that actually do connect with, but I never see on Zoom. Like I see them once a year and I forget about them until that time rolls around. So, uh, scratch what I said before about there being nobody here, there are at least four people in this town that I like.

[00:19:17] Jeff: And also just to note everybody, if you are a bald white bearded, man, Brett is gonna have you bring it in

[00:19:24] Brett: Yeah, Bring it in.

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[00:19:28] Brett: You know when a podcaster record their sponsor reads and posts, and then injects them into weird spots in the episode. Yeah, I’m sorry, but I’m doing that. And this episode kind of got away from us with all the mental health talk. Fortunately today’s sponsor is 100% about mental health. You just need to take better care of yourself is not a response to mental health struggles.

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[00:21:27]

[00:21:27] Journaling while manic (and otherwise)

[00:21:27] Brett: I heard from a bunch of people, I shouldn’t say a bunch. I heard from four different people, um, after our last episode about how they were also bipolar and they, they loved manic episodes loved and hated manic episodes, but they understood like where I was come coming from with like my actual desire for mania when I don’t have it, but then maybe regret when I do have it.

[00:21:55] Um, so that’s been, that’s been interesting and I’m, I’m, I’m gonna talk more [00:22:00] about it with my therapist, cuz I have that now. Um, but uh, Friday I started. Uh, a, a manic episode that got pretty intense and, uh, it’s Wednesday now. Um, I started sleeping, uh, Tuesday night, uh, Monday night and Tuesday night. I slept both nights, and got caught back up.

[00:22:23] It was just a couple days, but holy shit, I made so much stuff in a couple days. Um, and oh my God, Elle is such a trooper. It’s hard. I, when I get manic, I get very, like, I just wanna hide in code and I, it’s a very, it’s a safe mania. Like I don’t hurt anybody. I don’t, I don’t spend a lot of money. I don’t set a lot of tweets. I don’t do outrageous things. I, I write and I code and, and it’s, it’s overall, [00:23:00] uh, very productive, but it comes at the, the costs of like, uh, interpersonal relationships. And with my ex-wife, like I was having manic episodes that would last 10, 12 days. And I would basically never see her and I would ditch her. And I swore never to do that again. So I make my manic episodes are way less serious or intense now than they were. um, and I make an effort to like, be part of the family and to join, but Elle a is really good.

[00:23:37] She’s fine on her own. Like, she doesn’t mind having the house to herself while I disappear to my office for hours on end. Uh, but also she looks out for me, like she does what she can to kind of pave the way for me to just get through it, uh, kind of pain free because I immediately start worrying, like, how am I fucking in my [00:24:00] relationship?

[00:24:00] Like, I’m, I’m focused, I’m obsessed with this piece of code that I’m working on, but in the back of my mind, how am I fucking up my relationship, uh, right now. And, and she, she, she does her best to make it okay. Not in a codependent way, just in way that says, Hey, I know what you’re going through. And. I’m not mad at you.

[00:24:24] And she’ll like, say out loud, I’m not mad at you, which is helpful, but yeah, it’s, I’m, I’m coming down still. You can tell I’m a little bit, uh, we’ll say frazzled, but, um, I am looking forward to going to see my therapist tomorrow . Having had enough sleep. Oh. And I journaled through this whole episode, like he told me he wanted, he wanted documentation of my manic episodes.

[00:24:53] And I was like, just look at my GitHub chart. you can tell where, where, when and where my manic [00:25:00] episodes happened based on my GitHub activity. Uh, and he was pretty impressed by that, but I figured I’d go the extra mile and I started journaling as soon as I realized I was. And I’ve journaled every day through the process.

[00:25:13] And that first day, holy shit, I wrote four pages. It just pours out. And then today I wrote a paragraph. It waned off after a couple nights without sleep,

[00:25:26] Jeff: Have you ever journaled through a episode before?

[00:25:29] Brett: no, the closest I’ve gotten is blogging about like, I did a, a couple of blog posts. I did one during the mania and then forced myself during depression to do a follow up.

[00:25:42] Like, this is what the other side is like. Uh, which is really hard for me. I typically don’t write when I’m depressed. Uh, after, after a, you know, a week of putting out a blog post every day, then there’ll be like two weeks where I don’t post at all. Um, [00:26:00] but, uh, that’s the closest I’ve ever gotten to actually putting into words what was happening.

[00:26:06] Uh, so this time I have, I have some documentation.

[00:26:10] Jeff: I’m not asking you to be specific, but I’m curious, um, we can get so sort of stuck in our stories about our mental health or about how we experience this thing or that thing. Right. Cause we kind of tell it the same way over and over for me, the way that stuff breaks is when I can journal that’s when things like become that’s when I get surprised is what I’m trying to

[00:26:31] say. Um yeah. You know, and, and

[00:26:34] Christina: you to like re-remember or like re-experience and, and recontextualize, oh, Right its not just this loop that I’ve been replaying that I’ve told myself. It’s it’s maybe these other things.

[00:26:44] Jeff: And it’s like truly, truly, truly not for an audience, right? Like not in any way, shape or form. Um, and Brett, I was just curious if anything, about the journaling, not that I’m expecting it should have surprised you. I’m just curious if it did

[00:26:55] surprise

[00:26:56] Brett: Totally totally like when I’m manic, [00:27:00] I can start chaining together. Thoughts in ways that normally I would hit a logical conclusion very quickly. Uh, but when I’m manic, like I, one thing makes me realize another thing in succession and journaling in that state actually proved to be very, um, in depth. Like I discovered things in the process that I hadn’t previously realized, and they were things that I was excited to talk to my therapist about. And you’re right. It is very different than writing for an audience because I’m in that I am, I’m mentally curating what I share. Uh, when I’m journaling, I took out all the filters and I’m, I’m, I’m honest with people, but I don’t dig. I don’t dig the way I did in that journaling. So yeah, I

[00:27:53] Jeff: I don’t feel like it’s about being honest or not honest. I think that when you share about yourself in public, you are, you are [00:28:00] crafting a self in the truest sense and, and you’re crafting a self that is, I mean, hopefully you’re able to craft a self that is, that is safe being that self out in the world. Right. And which no doubt means you’re leaving parts out as you should. Right. Cause it’s like

[00:28:16] Christina: Yeah.

[00:28:19] Brett: Yeah, there’s very little. I leave out. Um, yeah, no, I guess there are things I leave out just for people’s sanity.

[00:28:27] Christina: Well right. Cuz that’s that’s the thing is like, I. So it’s funny because for me, I, the first time, and really like the only time I was ever able to consistently journal and, and I kind of wish I could get back on it. Ironically was when I had a live journal starting in high school and then in college. And, and what I liked about that is that yes, there was that public aspect, which. Yes, you, you can censor, even if you’re not trying to censor, like it just, as you were saying, you, you, there’s a different craft. There’s, there’s a different thing. But what was great about live journal is you could also have completely private posts, right. That [00:29:00] were only for yourself and, and that, that you could have there.

[00:29:03] And so, you know, like I, I appreciated that like motif, cuz I was like, I can do the thing that I’m used to doing that I’ve kind of made a habit of mine, which was good for me, but I can also be like really honest in a way that, that I, I wouldn’t feel comfortable even like if you’re not trying to hide things, you’re not trying to lie.

[00:29:20] It’s just like, there’s stuff that, not anybody else’s business, there’s personal writing, you know, I could still do that in that space. And I always like having kind of that dual thing, but I think you’re right. Like it’s very different, at least for me, even if we’re, we tend to be more honest about how we do things about if you’re just journaling for yourself, You don’t ever expect anybody to read it.

[00:29:41] Maybe you don’t even want anybody to read it. Right? Because that, that’s not how you’re doing it versus knowing that someone could read it.

[00:29:49] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:51] Brett: I did this journal. I wrote to my therapist, um, I didn’t write dear diary. Like in [00:30:00] my head, I was like, these are things I want my therapist to know.

[00:30:03] Christina: That’s really smart.

[00:30:05] Brett: I don’t know if that’s smart or if that made me censor it a little bit because, um, like I barely know the guy at this point. Uh, I,

[00:30:14] Christina: that’s a good thing too, right? Like when you don’t know somebody like you don’t like, you don’t have any of that built ups of like, am I

[00:30:20] Brett: I suppose, yeah,

[00:30:21] Christina: am they gonna judge me in a way? It’s like, I don’t know this person who

[00:30:24] Brett: like it’s very important to me. If I’m gonna make therapy work, it’s very important to me that I don’t lie and manipulate. Um, and so I, I approached it with that consideration in mind. Uh, but basically everything I wrote was stuff that I wanted him to read. Uh, not the deep I I’ve read. I’ve snuck in, in read girlfriend’s journals in the past, um, which is a super shitty thing to do.

[00:30:53] And if you’re young and dumb, don’t even

[00:30:56] Christina: fucking do

[00:30:57] Brett: don’t fucking do it

[00:30:58] Christina: You a, you don’t

[00:30:59] wanna do it [00:31:00] a, a, you don’t wanna do

[00:31:00] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:31:01] Christina: because nothing you learn is going to make you feel good. There’s only possibility you’ll feel bad. And you were violating like the most intimate trust you could ever have

[00:31:09] Brett: such a violation. And then, and then you feel compelled to like confront them about this thing that, that got under your skin, but then you have to admit that they, that you read their journal and then holy shit, that, yeah, you, it is a world of hurt. It’s a world of pain. Never, ever, ever read someone else’s journal.

[00:31:31] Just take it from a guy who’s been young and dumb and jealous and stupid. Uh, just don’t read anyone’s journal, but I will say what I learned from that is that people who actually know how to journal, they don’t, they don’t filter. They just pour it all out. And, and that’s maybe something I, I think I filter everything on the fly.

[00:31:57] I don’t think I know how to actually [00:32:00] journal. I’m always, always writing for an audience. Even when I’m writing for myself,

[00:32:05] Jeff: have you ever heard of the, I mean, this dates me, cuz this is forever old. Um, the book, “The Artist’s Way” by Julie Cameron,

[00:32:15] Brett: vaguely familiar. Don’t know

[00:32:17] what it is.

[00:32:18] Jeff: um, it’s, it’s a book about, it’s just a book about creativity. It’s a book about how to sort of, um, claim your creativity and your, your creative self essentially. Um, and I read it, it’s like a workbook kind of, I read it, uh, back in 2000, maybe 1999.

[00:32:37] Um, but the thing that stuck with me and I don’t do it all the time, but it gets right to, this is there’s a practice she encourages you to do early on throughout the period that you’re working through this workbook, which is like the couple months and she calls it the Morning Pages. And the idea is that you just open up a journal or you grab three pieces of printer paper, and you just write, you write three pages, you just write straight through. You don’t – you’re not trying to sound [00:33:00] smart. Um, you’re doing what you can do to make yourself feel safe, that nobody would ever read this thing.

[00:33:06] Right. And it’s just three pages. You don’t write more. You just go it’s, you can write big, you can write small, whatever it is, but you just like let it all flow out. First thing in the morning is sort of the primary idea. And, um, what I have found when I’m doing that and I I’ve done it, the longest period I did, it was like something 170 days or something.

[00:33:26] I remember the, I remember counting, um, you know, you can, one way she has you do it is just put those three pages in a sealed envelope when you’re done and put it in a file cabinet. You you’re not supposed to even reread. ’em it’s just like the idea is, and you’re not going back to this nothing. Right. Um, what I have found when I do that is that after a few days, I am surprised every day.

[00:33:50] So I find it annoying to do. Sometimes I’m not in the mood to do it. Sometimes I write really big so I can get through my three pages quickly. But if I do it [00:34:00] every day, there is some little surprise in there. And little surprise, nothing big, nothing mind blowing. That makes me think. I’m really glad I did that today.

[00:34:08] And, um, the fact of, you know, this idea that it’s just three pages and nobody’s ever gonna read this and I am not trying to sound smart. I am not trying to get complete thoughts out. Um, you know, I’m not trying to explain something to myself, which is sometimes what can happen in journaling. Uh, I just find that to be an amazing practice and I highly recommend it.

[00:34:27] Brett: What do, why, why in the morning versus in the evening, like, what do you write about in the morning? Like in the evening I would write about my day here’s, here’s what I experienced. Here’s how I felt about it. What do you write first thing in the morning?

[00:34:43] Jeff: so for me, why it works well in the morning and I’ve tried it all different points in the day is that in the morning, I’m kind of putting myself on like, you know, like I’m, I’m dressing in me. Um, and I actually find the transition from [00:35:00] sleeping and dreaming. I’m, I’m a very intense dreamer. So I find that transition from that point into breakfast, into work, to be actually really difficult and, and in need of some sort of ritual.

[00:35:11] Um, and, and this stops me when I’m doing it. And it’s not just that I need that ritual and I need it there more than any place else. I could also use a ritual at the end of the day, for sure. Like leaving work and going into family stuff. But like, it’s actually, it’s a ritual, not just to transition myself, um, physically into a new space, but it’s like, I just come to find when I’m doing it in the morning that I have some leftover thoughts from the day before I have some worries about the day.

[00:35:39] Um, I have some things that have been just sort of passing through my head, but I haven’t really grabbed them and acknowledged that they’re there. And, uh, and I find that I, I need to sort that stuff. I mean, I find, sorry that it’s super useful to sort that stuff in the morning before I enter into my day, um, through these morning pages, whereas the end of the day, it’s just like, [00:36:00] I’m more kind of exhausted and it’s just more of a yeah.

[00:36:03] And this and this and this and this and this. Whereas in the morning, it’s like, I’m a little more open to the universe. And like, I haven’t quite like, I haven’t quite solidified into like who I am for the day yet. And so it feels like there’s an opening there just to get a little metaphysical.

[00:36:18] Brett: All right. I I’m gonna have to give it a try. See what happens. Like I like, I, I like the idea of jo… I’ve always liked the idea of journaling, but now that I started, um, I’m definitely curious to see. What else I can do with it. Cause like I have all these tools that track what I’m doing and, and how it’s going.

[00:36:39] Uh, like I can see my productivity. I can, I can remember what I was working on, but my feelings have always been kind of ignored.

[00:36:52] Jeff: Yeah,

[00:36:53] Brett: so

[00:36:54] Jeff: You don’t get those in GitHub unless you’re a really good commentor.

[00:36:55] A GitHub activity chart for my feelings

[00:36:55] Brett: Right, like a GitHub, a GitHub activity chart for my [00:37:00] feelings, which I, you guys remember exist. exist.io. Um, it is, uh, it’s a web service web app. I don’t anyway, um, it, you, at its core, you rate your mood from like one to 10 every day and you write a little status update, but you can write as much as you want, and you can add all kinds of tags, uh, at various signs throughout the day.

[00:37:29] And you can, and it can automatically pull in data from other like social media sites and every week it sent you a summary of like how you did that week. Like, how were you feeling? What was your mood? And it’s pretty basic. It’s just, it’s a mood tracking app and I’ve kind of followed them from their inception like 10 years ago. And I used it pretty frequently for almost two years. Uh, and then like in my head [00:38:00] I was capturing data that would be useful to me. Um, and ultimately having years worth of mood data was not, it didn’t help me make any decisions and I kinda lost the drive to do it, but, uh, I think it kind of serves the same purpose as, as, as journaling.

[00:38:24] Christina: Definitely. I think like if, what you’re wanting to get out of the journaling is to kind of track that sort of thing. I think it can, like for, for me, journaling is about getting my thoughts and my feelings out even if I never look at it again, just so I can work through my emotions so that I’m not bottling it up and carrying it forward and making things bad, like by, by, by having some explosion later on, because I never go