295: That Particular Monster

That Particular Monster

[00:00:00] Christina:

[00:00:02] You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren and I am joined as always by Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra guys. How are you?

[00:00:14] Jeff: Hido hi, episode 2 95.

[00:00:16] New Teeth?

[00:00:16] Brett: I got new teeth. You? Nope. Okay. So our listeners, we don’t, we’re not doing video, but for the last year I had the four teeth in the bottom, right back of my mouth got pulled. So I haven’t been able to chew on the right side of my mouth for

[00:00:32] Christina: Oh, wow.

[00:00:33] Brett: Um, and I just got used to it. I, I got used to having all that extra space from my tongue.

[00:00:38] Uh, and you, you, your, your brain just accommodates, you know, you just start chewing with one side of your mouth. So now I have to like force myself to chew, but they put these teeth in, I got this bridge, this implant, and for, for people listening, I just like pulled my cheek back and

[00:00:54] Jeff: no, you did like the old comedy, like fish hook and the

[00:00:56] Brett: Yep.

[00:00:57] Yeah. And, and the teeth [00:01:00] they put in this implant, they put in is bigger than the teeth that were taken out. Um, I don’t know if you can see, but it comes in like almost a quarter inch further than the normal teeth

[00:01:13] Jeff: oh, jeez.

[00:01:14] Christina: Ooh, weird. So, okay. Now was that an accident or is that just like how they work or like.

[00:01:20] Brett: I complained about it and they explained to me that because of the way, cuz there’s two, uh, like whatever, screw posts, whatever they’re called implants, I guess. Um, and the way that they have to create a bridge that spans across these two posts, it has to be in a straight line instead of curved the way a, a set of teeth normally would be.

[00:01:42] Um, so I guess it’s unavoidable. I’m gonna give it a couple weeks and if it, if I can’t stop biting my tongue, like I I’m having to retrain the way I speak. Um, I’m, I, I, I tend to li [00:02:00] now if I’m not paying close attention, because my tongue is kind of like jammed towards the center of my mouth and it’s, it’s nice to be able to chew on the right side of my mouth.

[00:02:10] But honestly, I, I kind of miss not having teeth there at this point. , I’m getting, uh, as the days go by, I’ve only had ’em for two days. So I feel like I’m getting more used to them every day. Uh, we’ll see. Maybe I’ll just, maybe my brain will just adjust to this. No reality. Now,

[00:02:29] Christina: I think it probably eventually will. Um, they might have to do a thing where like they shave some of it down or whatever. I don’t know.

[00:02:36] Brett: if that’s an option, I’m all for

[00:02:38] Christina: I mean, they might be able to, I’m just, I, the reason I’m saying this is like, I know that they can shave regular teeth down, so I don’t understand why they couldn’t shave like an implant or something.

[00:02:44] Brett: Yeah. We’ll see what,

[00:02:47] Jeff: I went to the dentist for a crown and they gave me a 3d print of my teeth.

[00:02:51] Brett: oh, geez. What are you gonna do with ’em Halloween’s coming up.

[00:02:55] Christina: That is cool.

[00:02:56] Jeff: Well, my fucking family’s sick of seeing them. Uh, I had it on [00:03:00] my bedside table for a while.

[00:03:02] Christina: Oh

[00:03:02] Brett: my family’s like my family’s like that with the gallstones I got taken

[00:03:06] Christina: your wife is like, you put that in the house first. You get that off the bedside table.

[00:03:12] Jeff: it’s fascinating to look at. You never see it’s like a for, for those again, for this visual episode where retired, I have a full 3d printed version of my mouth and, uh, and I can just look at it and it’s like looking at me, uh, or at least part of me. And it’s like, where I know there’s bigger gaps in my teeth.

[00:03:29] I can locate him on the side. And like, it’s just amazing

[00:03:32] Brett: do you look at it while you’re flossing? So you can

[00:03:35] Jeff: Well, no, but it’s actually facing me. I I’m looking at it. It’s up on top of my monitor on a little tray. So they they’re staring at me all the time.

[00:03:43] Brett: So one of the benefits I was looking forward to with this whole quarter of my mouth being fake now was that I can’t get cavities there. What I didn’t realize is with a bridge like this, you have to floss underneath it. [00:04:00] So it’s not that I have a core of my mouth being, uh, like maintenance free it’s that I have a quarter of my mouth that requires different maintenance than the rest of my mouth, which I’m pretty disappointed about.

[00:04:12] Jeff: What is that? You bring the floss back to the back and you go under the teeth.

[00:04:16] Brett: there’s two posts in it. So you can’t just like scoop under it. Uh, you get this thing called, I think it’s called a bridge thread. And it’s like, it’s just a wire and you have to like get it between and around the post and like poke through at the bottom of your teeth

[00:04:33] Jeff: Wow.

[00:04:34] Brett: instead of going between the teeth, cuz it’s one solid piece.

[00:04:36] So you can’t just like floss down and into it. You have to dig underneath it. And I’m not excited about that.

[00:04:43] Jeff: A, uh, a, a elderly British friend of mine told me that it used to be custom on the island, uh, for a wedding gift in rural parts of the country to give the husband or the husband and the wife, uh, to give them, uh, fake [00:05:00] teeth for their wedding, present a set of full set, full set of

[00:05:04] Brett: planning for the future.

[00:05:05] Jeff: I guess. So I don’t understand it.

[00:05:08] I didn’t fact check it. This lady’s generally very reliable,

[00:05:12] Brett: everyone should have at least one elderly British friend.

[00:05:15] Jeff: mm, this is the best.

[00:05:16] Brett: Everyone should have at least two Austrian mates. Sorry. That’s a reference to a movie that neither of you will ever see, but it’s all gone. Pete Tong is a fucking classic and everyone should watch it. At least once

[00:05:29] Christina: Okay.

[00:05:30] Jeff: all right.

[00:05:30] Brett: I’m adding, it’s been in here before, but I’m adding Pete Tong to our show notes right now,

[00:05:35] Jeff: Okay. He is. Can you hear him clicking? He’s not bullshitting.

[00:05:38] Brett: all gone Pete to such a good movie.

[00:05:41] Jeff: Spelled like it sounds,

[00:05:42] Brett: It’s a great movie. I’m telling you His girlfriend, his girlfriend tells him he should maybe write a book about his life and he says, oh yeah, that’s brilliant. Wait, that’s a lot, maybe a pamphlet or a brochure. I get that. I, I feel you all right.

[00:05:59] Mental Health Corner

[00:05:59] Brett: Should we do some mental.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Jeff: I guess so.

[00:06:01] Brett: Feel like we segued

[00:06:02] Christina: I, I, I think, I definitely think we segued into it.

[00:06:05] Brett: Who’s up first.

[00:06:08] Christina: go first. Uh, because mine is not massive. I, uh, so I mentioned this ironically in an Adri last week that I’ve been like having some indigestion and I, I think I have an ulcer is basically what I think it is. And so this isn’t really mental health per se, but it is like my health, which affects my mental health.

[00:06:27] So, so like the last few weeks, this has been a weird thing where I’ve never really had this where I have like, um, like really bad, like all day, like indigestion. So how it started was I’d been at a friend’s house. I hadn’t had much to eat that day. I ate some stuff. I had some wine and then I woke up like eight hours later and I threw up and, but I didn’t throw up, you know, because I was like drunk or anything.

[00:06:52] Like it was. That thing where sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever, either of you ever had this, but sometimes you do get like indigestion where like all [00:07:00] of a sudden you wake up and like, your mouth is full of saliva. And you’re like, I have to throw up because there’s gas or something in my stomach and that happened.

[00:07:09] But then it continued to happen for like three more days and I really couldn’t eat anything. I couldn’t keep anything down. I just felt terrible. And I felt like, you know, it was like, like lower than normal indigestion, but not like a stomach ache. And it’s, it’s continued and it got better, but now it’s like worse.

[00:07:26] Like I’ve had a lot of Tums I’ve been taking like over the counter things and whatnot, but, um, and things were better. I had one instance at my parents’ house for one day, but, um, then it, uh, was, was better after I was, I was taking some like, uh, some Pepsi or something, but I ran outta pep, so I have to get more pep and it’s like back and it is.

[00:07:47] Not great. Like, I, I, I I’ve forgotten, like, it’s been a while since I’ve had any sort of like physical health problem, almost all my problems have been like hidden. So I, you know, like mental and, and so [00:08:00] I’m like, God damn, this sucks. So I’m gonna have to find a, a, a gastro, um, to, to go to and like get checked out.

[00:08:07] But it’s one of those things that, that can make you tired and like, make you not feel good. Like otherwise when like your body like, feels like it’s, you know,

[00:08:15] Brett: Right. And, and I think, I think that’s under underrecognized is that chronic pain of any kind, even short term has a major effect on, because it affects your sleep. It affects your diet, it affects your overall pain level, uh, which all affects your mental health. And that absolutely is a valid part of the mental health corner.

[00:08:37] Uh, any kind people who are like, uh, deal with like extensive chronic pain or chronic fatigue. Yeah. That’s that takes a real toll on the mental health.

[00:08:48] Christina: Yeah, no, and, and it, it, it doesn’t like, and obviously mine is, is, is very minor compared to those things, but it does. But I think that that’s a great point, Brad, and that, that I think was what it kind of got me thinking about, which is that a lot of times, [00:09:00] I do think sometimes like, if you’re your other health is not good, then that’s going to make everything else better worse.

[00:09:07] And, and I think on the flip side, right, like they’re almost, they’re these terrible self, like fulfilling things is that if you have like, your mental health is not good, then you’re less likely to take care of your physical health. And like, it’s this, it’s this terrible, like self perpetuating motion

[00:09:21] Brett: Yeah. And may maybe even vice versa.

[00:09:23] Christina: Yeah, exactly. So that’s

[00:09:25] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Um, So I had, I had, I had, I had an additional thought for this and I lost it. I lost it because I was working really hard to actively pay attention to what you were saying, which is a problem I have, like, I will start thinking about my response and the, the person I’m talking to will continue on with their story.

[00:09:47] But meanwhile, I got stuck on this, this part I wanted to respond to and I missed. And when I edit our podcast, I always realized that I’ve done that. Like you’ve gone on, you’ve gone on and shared something important, [00:10:00] relevant, uh, noteworthy. But I got stuck on something. You said like two minutes earlier.

[00:10:06] And that’s what I respond to when I like derail the conversation. And it drives me nuts to hear like my own habits when I’m, when I’m editing this show. So I apologize for all the times I’ve done that and probably will do it in the future.

[00:10:19] Christina: Hey, that’s okay. I mean, I, I, I actually, I, for one, like, appreciate the, uh, the self-awareness there because I think most of us probably do that. I think that’s one of those truisms. Um, again, I, last week I quoted something from, um, invisible monsters, my, one of my favorite books, which has not aged particularly well in certain aspects, but I still love it, uh, where, like, you know, the postcards they send out, which are, are, again, these, these sort of trite things, but, but some of them are, are good.

[00:10:45] Like one of my favorite quotes, but there’s one where it’s like people, you know, ask you how your day is so that they can tell you about theirs.

[00:10:52] Brett: Yeah,

[00:10:53] Christina: And there’s, there is a certain truth to that. I think where a lot of times we are thinking about our responses and our own things, or waiting to say our next thing and not [00:11:00] always like active listening.

[00:11:01] This is my short, my, my long-winded sorry, this is my long-winded way of saying that yes, active listening can be difficult, but it’s especially difficult when you’re trying to think about what you said next. Did you, did you remember what you were gonna say?

[00:11:12] Brett: No, but I saw, I saw, uh, an Instagram meme the other day that, that basically, uh, to paraphrase the conversation between neuro two neuro divergent people is basically just a series of that reminds me of the time where none of it relates to the story. The person just told, it’s just like a constant, like, well, that reminds me of, and I’m like, yeah, that is, that’s how I actually prefer to converse.

[00:11:38] I feel like there’s a lot of, there’s a lot communicated when you share personal stories and some people feel, they look at that as like, oh, you’re making it all about you, but actually that’s how I relate to what you’re saying. It’s I find a connection that I can latch onto. And if my connection. Offend you [00:12:00] or it’s wrong, then I want to hear why your experience is different.

[00:12:04] Like that’s, I put it out there for the purpose of like, trying to communicate, it’s my way of saying, is this what you mean? Um, and, and some people don’t deal with that. Some people like L my girlfriend, um, have learned to communicate with me in that way, uh, to hear it the way that, I mean it, uh, but, but yeah, when you’re, when you’re talking to a neurotypical that can, that can sometimes not go so well.

[00:12:29] Christina: Yeah. Although I think that most neurotypical people are like that too. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, like, I I’m I’m at this point now, I don’t know if anybody is neurotypical to be completely

[00:12:37] Jeff: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don’t know if I even believe in the, the, that particular monster.

[00:12:42] Christina: yeah, because I think that most people, uh, are, are that way. And I, I think that what you just described, if anything, I would actually describe that as a fairly common response to say that you relate to people by being able to, you know, make comparisons in your own experiences and.

[00:12:58] Brett: if that’s true. I don’t know if [00:13:00] that’s true. I can’t prove it either way. All I know is what’s true for me and, and it’s true for me, so,

[00:13:05] Christina: that that’s, I think that that’s true for me largely is not universally true, but like, I think that a lot of times, like one of my first instincts, especially when talking to people is to try to find a thing I can relate to if only, not so much for myself, but, but oftentimes for them to be like, oh, you know, I, I, I know what you’re saying.

[00:13:22] I have empathy or whatever. Right. Like, whereas I would think that if I, I think that, so again, like, I, I, I think terms like neurotypical and a neurotypical are, are not necessarily even helpful at this point. But, um, but I do wonder like, if, if, if you were going to go on that spectrum, I think that if people who have a hard time with empathy, that might not be a thing that might even be aware of, if that makes any sense where they could even make that connection of this is similar to this thing with.

[00:13:54] Brett: So maybe, and, and maybe your life is similar to mine in that you [00:14:00] have attracted and curated people in your life who can relate to you in those ways. Um, there is a world out there that was designed by neurotypicals. Um, that is why those of us who are neuro divergent often have trouble. I mean, it’s, it’s what makes us, it’s what makes school hard for us?

[00:14:24] It’s what makes work hard for us. We have extra challenges because this neurotypical world was not designed for us. Um, and this is especially true with like autism, but, but ADHD, for sure. Um, like there, there, those people do exist though.

[00:14:42] Christina: oh, no, I know they do. I, I, I

[00:14:43] Brett: we self-select out of those

[00:14:45] Christina: Well, no, and I know they exist. I’m not trying to say that. What I’m saying is my experiences, and this is why I, I, I guess I am neuro diversion, but I’ve never identified that way because for most of my life and, and even now, like I could I’ve existed [00:15:00] in, in primarily neurotypical spaces where I’ve worked with a lot of neuro diversion people, obviously, but I’ve also been in very neurotypical spaces that are very common and like excelled in those spaces.

[00:15:11] Right? Like, like I think I have,

[00:15:13] Brett: at masking.

[00:15:14] Christina: well, not just masking, but I think I’m actually good to be completely honest. I think I’m good at understanding social cues and social scenarios, regardless of what person I’m with. I don’t think that’s masking. I think that’s like, if anything, like, I, I just understand instantly what the social dynamic of something is.

[00:15:30] Brett: You info dump though, which is not a neurotypical thing. That is an atypical thing to

[00:15:38] Christina: Oh, sure.

[00:15:39] Brett: you know, something about something it’s a it’s and in your case, like, you know, so much about so many things, like someone hits a topic, you know about, and you will dump, you will, you will info dump and, and it can make neurotypical people uncomfortable.

[00:15:54] It can make ADHD, people like me lose focus, but,

[00:15:58] Christina: good. No, totally. No, no. And [00:16:00] I’m again, like I’m not, I’m not claiming that I’m like not normal. So what I’m saying is

[00:16:03] Brett: and I’m not claiming to give you therapy.

[00:16:05] Christina: well, I’m, I’m just saying like, in these, in these situations, like I think what you were describing as trying to find like similarities, I actually think that’s a fairly common neuro neurotypical skill to try to find common commonalities.

[00:16:18] Brett: So there’s this line. We can, we, we won’t drive this into the ground, but there’s a difference, like for me, someone will tell me a meaningful story. And instead of me, I believe the neurotypical response would just be to say, I hear you. That’s, that’s really rough, or that’s really meaningful in its way.

[00:16:41] And my response instead is to say, yeah, one time when I was, you know, 25, this happened to me and it’s not, uh, just in a pure, conversational, uh, as a gambit, it doesn’t really indicate, [00:17:00] necessarily understanding, especially if what I say isn’t. Obviously correlated. Uh, I found people like Jeff here. Uh, they hear me do that and he rolls with it.

[00:17:15] Like I think he understands, I think he speaks the way I do. Uh, but people like my mother, uh, will, will worry that I’m making the conversation about me when they just told me something that was meaningful to them. And my way of acknowledging that it was meaningful was to find a personal story that relates.

[00:17:35] But, uh, but for my mom, it, and if anyone’s neurotypical, it’s my mother. And that’s why like, life has been rough. Uh, cuz she does not understand like what I go through and uh, and, and she sees it as me making it about.

[00:17:51] Christina: Yeah. Okay. I can understand. I can actually see both of those things and I guess, yeah, this is, this would be the difference. I think that, I guess [00:18:00] I, I, I, I think that most people do actually act like you, nor even people like your mother, where they would in their mind find a similar situation. They might not share it at that moment because that might not be the right response.

[00:18:15] If that makes sense.

[00:18:17] Brett: Yes, I appreciate that. You think, you know how neurotypical people

[00:18:21] Christina: Well, I I’ve spent a

[00:18:22] Brett: as neurotypical?

[00:18:23] Christina: I mean, I’m not neurotypical, but I’ve, but I’ve been around enough neurotypical people and I’ve, I’ve. I do feel like I understand how neurotypical people act, cuz I’ve been, that’s been my primary existence. Like my, my, my family is completely neurotypical, so, so I know, I know the response

[00:18:39] Brett: up against it. Yeah.

[00:18:40] Christina: Yeah. And, and, and I don’t like, I know I’m, I’m neuro diversion, but I’m, but I’m like, but I, I understand that this is what I’m trying to say. Like, I understand the social scenario where if you say what you’re feeling, how they’re going to react and why they would react that way. I also completely understand why they would react that way.[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] Brett: and to be fair, like I can get along fine at a party these days less. So when I was younger, but yeah, I’ve gotten really good at existing in a more neurotypical, typical space. I’m not like handicapped. It’s not like everything I do comes across as like, uh, disabled in any way. Like I can be social.

[00:19:21] I can be well liked. Um, I can, I can even have deep conversations with people that aren’t like me. So it’s, I’m not saying it’s not possible. Um, it’s just, there are differences in the way we naturally communicate.

[00:19:35] Christina: Yeah, I guess all I was gonna say, and this will be my final thing, and we’ve gone way too long on this and you can edit out any, you can edit out any or most of

[00:19:42] Brett: Nope. It all stays.

[00:19:43] Christina: uh, is I think that most people, this is what I was going say. Maybe not for the reasons that you do, but I think that most people do cuz this is a truism and this is like a known like, like truism or afro. Right? This is, this is one of those things, which is that. Usually the [00:20:00] whole time someone else is talking, people are waiting and thinking about what they wanna say rather than listening to the next thing to say, like that is a truism and that is a, that is a neurotypical truism.

[00:20:09] So that’s all I was gonna say is that many people I think are, are thinking about their own experiences or their own relation thing while someone else is talking, they might not share that the way you did, but most people aren’t actively listening.

[00:20:21] Brett: And this will be the last thing I say on the topic, cuz yeah, it’s gone on. But um, that, that is probably one of those things that everyone can relate to. Every, everybody like has that for ADHD people in particular, it’s hard to, uh, circumvent that it’s hard to, it’s hard to bring yourself back. Um, I think it’s harder for ADHD people to, uh, to like see that that’s happening and, and do something about it.

[00:20:54] Anyway, Jeff, how’s your mental health?

[00:20:58] Jeff: Well, I it’s [00:21:00] interesting cuz I, uh, my mental health is, is it is what it is, but I’ve, I’ve really been thinking a lot about, um, the quality of presence. And um, thinking about that again, as you’re talking, uh, for me, quality of presence in the sense of like, I’ve just, I’ve done a lot of it over recent years, COVID excluded.

[00:21:23] Um, I’ve done some experimenting with myself in social situations where, um, where I actually. You know, work to not do the thing where that you’re describing, which is like, oh, that makes me think of a story, cuz I really, I actually quite love like story trading and I think that in certain relationships I have, that’s a norm and it’s, and it’s just lovely.

[00:21:48] Um, and I’ve found in many, many other situations that, um, I think I’m hitting the mark and I’ve probably missed it. And, and in missing it, my quality of presence [00:22:00] has, has degraded significantly in that conversation. And, um, and so I’ve experimented with kind of letting stories just end without me having, um, something to share about it, but in finding some meaningful and natural way to sort of mirror or, or just register that I’m, I’ve taken this in.

[00:22:22] Um, and I, and whatever, whatever sort of appropriate level of, of indicating, you know, I, I feel that the gravity of this or the hilarity of this or whatever it is, um, I actually, for me, the reason that’s difficult is because I, I am like, it’s like in my DNA, on my dad’s side, like. I get antsy in silences. Um, my dad and my grandmother, his mother always did.

[00:22:50] And, and always does, um, make sounds in silence whistle or Hmm. Or my, my grandma used to always go, oh, golly. [00:23:00] You know, like in any fucking silence, right. Including in really serious conversations when the silence felt meaningful, right. Like generative. Um, and so I , I learned this incredible lesson when I was working with my reporting partner, Samara Freemark for, um, American public media on a project.

[00:23:19] And we were interviewing a bunch of veterans. She was holding the, um, the shotgun mic, uh, because she could actually hold it without moving her fingers constantly and causing the audio to be completely terrible. And I was doing a lot of the question asking in the beginning of our, um, of our project. And after like one interview, she’s like gun.

[00:23:44] You do not leave any silence. Like you have to learn to just pause and see what happens. I’m like, okay, I’m in. I’m in, well, what do we do? And she’s like, I’m holding the microphone, which is always like very close to the source. Right. She’s like, after you ask a [00:24:00] question or after an answer, seems like it’s done, I’m gonna raise my finger.

[00:24:05] And until my finger goes back down, you’re not gonna say anything. I’m like, got it. Right. Like, awesome. And it was incredible. Like what I learned about, about gathering stories and, and what can happen when you actually, this is like classic. Like we would, you believe I’m a CIS white male, um, that when you actually leave space, um, what can happen even though it’s initially awkward?

[00:24:29] Is actually like transformative and, and magical, and actually does leave room for that person who just finished a story to go somewhere entirely different and that applies to conversations. Um, and so I’ve really tried and I’m not always good at it, but I really try to just leave space after someone tells me something, even though it triggers.

[00:24:47] And I really want to tell ’em this fucking story, cause this such a good story and they’ll know a little bit more about me and like, you know, whatever else, like, um, I’m really practicing that kind of quality of presence. So anyway, I was already gonna talk about quality of [00:25:00] presence, but what you both were talking about really raised that for me.

[00:25:04] And so I’m, I’m really just, I’m answering the question. How is my mental health by just saying that like, I. Thinking a lot about quality of presence and the ways in which my quality of presence can, can be degraded. Um, the ways in which I may feel it’s good and it’s actually not good. Is this really funny story from when, uh, my wife was pregnant with our first son, we were living in New York and we went to a, uh, we were part of a, a group, like a, a group of people that were about to have babies.

[00:25:32] Right. It was like a parent. Fucking club or whatever. And we were learning different lessons about, you know, the actual birthing process. And they did this thing where it was all men and women. It was all like straight couples where, um, the women were supposed to kind of just sit in a chair and the men were supposed to come behind them and, and put their hand on their back.

[00:25:51] And just, and just the, the instructions were just to be like, as loving and supportive, as you can, like send all that loving and supportive [00:26:00] energy through your hand, into their back. And we did the exercise and when it was done, it was time for the women in the group to share out. And one, after another they’re like, felt really oppressive. So, you know, we’re all going, like support, love, light babies, you know, and they’re just like, fuck, get this hand off of me. And that taught me a lot and I continue learning about quality of presence. So that’s my answer.

[00:26:25] On Interrupting Women

[00:26:25] Brett: I will say it was really hard for me to not interrupt you while you were talking, uh, to talk about how common it is for ADHD people to interrupt in a conversation. Um, And I’m like, I would just be illustrating the point and my conversation with Christina before you went Jeff, like I interrupted her so many times because I couldn’t like not say what was on my mind.

[00:26:50] Um, and, and I feel like shit about that. And, and honestly, it is easier for me to interrupt women than it is men. And that sucks. Like it [00:27:00] it’s like I

[00:27:00] Christina: That does suck. That is shitty. Honestly, that’s really fucked

[00:27:04] Brett: really is. And I’ve noticed this about myself. Like if I have something I think is important to say, I’m willing to cut a woman off where I will give a guy a little more time to finish his, his speech.

[00:27:18] And like, at least that’s what it seems to me in, in anecdotal situations. Like, and it’s something that I, I work on. Um, but, uh, it is a common trait for ADHD people to interrupt. And, and that is something that I could really use someone holding up their finger. And just like, just that signal would be like, okay, all right.

[00:27:42] Back down. We’re we’re just gonna keep listening. Um, maybe what I have to say right now might not even be relevant by the time they finish talking and that’s okay. Like, I need to learn to deal with

[00:27:54] Jeff: Well, and in the case of what you’re describing of interrupting women, more than men like to, to have [00:28:00] a bigger finger, um, that, that is up for longer, um, in those cases, I mean, that is something I think it’s really important. You’ve got that self-awareness and I think you just figure out like what, it’s just what you do on your computer, right?

[00:28:12] Like what’s the hack, what can I do to make sure that, um, and it, and I don’t, I have no shame in having to like, mechanize me, shutting the fuck up, like, you know, the idea of that finger or whatever else, like, because what happens is it quickly feels like something other than mechanized, it just feels like spaciousness, you know?

[00:28:34] And you know, , that’s the biggest thing in the world. Right?

[00:28:39] Brett: Suddenly, I feel physically bad now about admitting that I cut women off in conversation, I’m gonna leave it in the podcast because it’s fucking true. Like, it’s just, it’s true. But I feel, I feel physically bad now. Um,

[00:28:56] Christina: I’m sorry, you feel physically bad, but I’m glad that you admitted that. Right? Like I think that that’s [00:29:00] cuz honestly, like it’s one of those things, like I think that it’s a good thing to kind of like be aware of. Right. Like I

[00:29:04] Brett: oh

[00:29:05] Christina: that, you know, like, like I’m glad that you have that self-awareness to at least even say that, like, I think that’s really good.

[00:29:11] Brett: How am I ever gonna fix it? If I don’t acknowledge.

[00:29:14] Christina: Well, that’s exactly it. And which I think goes to what, what Jeff was saying, which is like, I think, and I’ve done something similar to Jeff, um, where I’ve also like tried to be more present. So I really appreciate what you were saying about that, because that encourages me to continue to do that because I, I, with, I think that silences can be beautiful, but like you, I also kind of have a hard time, like letting things be that way.

[00:29:37] Um, but like, but, but I think what Jeff was was saying, and, and this is my, maybe me completely undoing. What I was just proclaiming to do is I think applicable to even like what you were saying, Brad, about like you, you noticed that you are more open to interrupting women. Like you’re aware of these things.

[00:29:57] And if you can be conscious of it, [00:30:00] even if it’s hard and even if it takes time, even if you don’t have that, that physical cue of the hand going up, you can make changes in your behavior. Right. And then those BA, and then those changes, the more you do them, the more common, like the more, the easier it is to continue to do them.

[00:30:17] And the more they become habits. So, you know, just like, yes, it’s, it’s harder for ADHD people, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And it doesn’t mean that, that, like, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, like our, our, our, our, our mental, um, you know, challenges are, are, are not like crutches. They’re not excuses for us to act certain ways.

[00:30:38] They’re just not. So if that’s something you really wanna change, you can take the steps, which starts with acknowledging what happens to recognize it. And then, you know, think about it. Not feel actively bad, but to be like, okay, well, in the future, I’m going to be aware of this and stop myself when, when I, when I even, even if I, since it’s happening, stop myself, when I start to do it [00:31:00] so that, you know, the habit becomes something that you just do.

[00:31:03] Brett: Sure. Yeah. And, and, and I’ve been aware of this for a little while now. It’s I feel physically bad. Having publicly admitted it to thousands of people. , that’s just, that’s a, that’s a, you know, I’ll be, I’ll be very aware of it now. Um, so. So guess what? Uh, after, after months of talking about how I needed to find a therapist, I found a therapist.

[00:31:30] You Need a Therapist

[00:31:30] Jeff: Woo.

[00:31:31] Christina: Woohoo.

[00:31:31] Brett: first session a couple days ago. Um, like we, we did a meet and greet, uh, just kind of like an interview is this guy didn’t work for me. And, and I wasn’t sure, like he checked all the boxes, all the questions I had lined up. Uh, he had answers that were satisfactory. At the end of a little like 20 minute, uh, let’s just, let’s just chat kind of thing.

[00:31:57] I didn’t feel like he was smarter than me [00:32:00] and I really want someone smarter than me that can call me on bullshit. Um, cuz I’m, I’m a, I’m, I’m a smart guy. I’m also an addict. I’m very adept at deception and uh, in manipulation for sure. And like I need someone smart enough to just be like, Nope, that’s not right.

[00:32:22] That’s not true. What do you actually think about this? What are you actually feeling? What actually happened in that situation? And, and I wasn’t sure he could be that guy for me. Um, and I didn’t know if I wanted a male or a female therapist, so I, I put unspecified when I did the psychology today, search, um, But this guy came up and, and he has experience with religious trauma.

[00:32:50] He has experience with addiction. He has experience with bipolar and ADHD. And during our first session, he, like, he explained things about my bipolar [00:33:00] specifically. Like he listened to, um, me explain what my like, manic episodes were like and everything. And he was able to tell me things about my condition that I didn’t know before and that I double check to verify.

[00:33:15] And he knows what he’s talking about. It was, it was impressive. Um, he’s worked with, uh, with, uh, alcohol abuse and, and at like, uh, dual diagnosis clinic, um, in Minnesota. And, uh, he’s, he. He’s worked with seven day Adventists and some, some cult members that needed deconversion and yeah, so like he, he like, he immediately, when I talked about, um, my fundamentalist upbringing and he, without prompting was like, that’s abuse, you were abused.

[00:33:56] And I’m like, I needed to hear that from him. I needed a [00:34:00] therapist who understood that while outwardly appearing like a, leave it to beaver Cleaver home, my upbringing was terrifying. Um, and I wasn’t physically abused in any way. It wasn’t sexually abused, but I was emotionally abused and, and it affects me to this day.

[00:34:21] And, and I feel like this guy, I feel like he hit all the right buttons. Um, I, I. I’m no longer concerned about his intelligence level. He’s, he’s a smart enough guy. He’s at least as smart as I am. Maybe not smarter, but he’s, he’s smart enough. And I feel like this is gonna work. So I signed up to do weekly sessions for the next six weeks and we’ll see how things go.

[00:34:47] It’ll be the first time I’ve actually given therapy a chance.

[00:34:51] Christina: I’m I’m so, I’m so glad to hear that. And I’m so glad, like you gave him a second chance and that you didn’t just go on that kind of like initial gut feeling of, you know, he’s not [00:35:00] smart enough.

[00:35:01] Brett: Right? Well, I realized like I could probably shoot down therapists for the rest of time.

[00:35:06] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you’re probably not gonna find a therapist who smart than you to be completely honest.

[00:35:12] Brett: Well, and, and, and the thing is like, that’s a very subjective, like, no one’s sharing their IQ scores with me. And I don’t even know how much faith I put in the idea of a, of an IQ test. Like what he, he met all the requirements on paper that I could think of that I could possibly come up with. And this idea of like, is he smarter than me?

[00:35:36] It’s subjective. And I could use that to shoot down anybody. So I had to ignore that one and just accept that he met all the other requirements and give him a shot. And yeah, I think it’s gonna work out

[00:35:48] Jeff: For me, it’s not, it’s not smart. I mean, like generally speaking. Important that somebody be smart and, you know, a little wise even, right. Um, or w but clear eye is [00:36:00] actually what, for me, what matters the most is like the thing that you said where he was able to sort of reflect back at you, what, what you already knew, but you needed to hear, which is that your, your religious upbringing was traumatic, right? Clear eye enough, to be able to kind of see you in these, these ways that you’re presenting yourself, as you get to know each other. Um, it takes smarts for sure, but I think you can have the smartest therapist in the world and they might not see you, you k