239: Microtargeted

Brett

[00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Christina Warren and you are listening to overtired. See, I did it a little bit out of order, but I still pulled it off. I’m getting way better at this.

[00:00:10] Christina: [00:00:10] Totally getting better at this.

[00:00:11] It’s actually very, very good. How are you Brett?

[00:00:15] Brett: [00:00:15] How many years have we been doing this? Now?

[00:00:18] Christina: [00:00:18] Seven.

[00:00:20] Brett: [00:00:20] It took me way too long to figure out how to do intros.

[00:00:27] Christina: [00:00:27] I mean, in fairness to me, we did have like, we were consistent and then we weren’t

[00:00:32] Brett: [00:00:32] Yeah, there was a couple years in there for me to get rusty. Again, we have, we’re more consistent now than we ever have been.

[00:00:42] Christina: [00:00:42] I know it’s, it’s actually pretty great.

[00:00:45] Brett: [00:00:45] Yeah. Yeah, no, I, uh, this is, uh, a regular part of my weekend. I enjoy it. So how’s your mental health this week? Let’s just jump right into it. Like regular segments. How are you doing.

[00:00:57] Christina: [00:00:57] I’m doing.

[00:00:58] pretty well. I’m tired, [00:01:00] um, is early as I’m recording this, but, um, cause we had to make some adjustments for your job, which completely great. Like I have no problem with that at all. Um, but I am, I’m, I’m a little bit tired, but I’m okay. Um, I’m a little frazzled this week and next week because Microsoft build is next week.

[00:01:18] And so I’ve got all this stuff that I have to do. All of these things have been promised for and stuff that I’ve got to get ready. Cause I’m hosting next week. And there, like all these side projects that happen and on the one hand, like that can be stressful. But on the other hand, it’s almost like easier not to focus on other externalities that might be, you know, not because you’re just busy.

[00:01:40] Brett: [00:01:40] Sure. Yeah. Like throw yourself into your work kind of thing.

[00:01:44] Christina: [00:01:44] Yeah. Basically like, yeah. When, when you’re so busy, you can’t really like focus on anything else, but yeah, I I’m. Okay. Um, I, uh, you know, I was, I was home with my family for 10 days and I didn’t, it is weird because I want to, I want to preface this by saying I [00:02:00] would never move back home. Like that would never be a thing, but it, it, it has been like, you know, it was really nice seeing everybody, and it was really hard to leave and, and that, it was like the first time that it was like really difficult for me to leave.

[00:02:12] And, um, I’m actually going back at the end of next week for the Memorial day weekend. Uh, so, uh, cause I need to get my airline status anyway. So, uh, you know, might as well, but, um, but Grant’s going to go with me, um, on that trip, but yeah, it was, it was harder for me to, to leave than I thought that it would be.

[00:02:34] And, uh, that surprised me.

[00:02:36] Brett: [00:02:36] How was flying?

[00:02:38] Christina: [00:02:38] It was fine. Um, you know, everybody wears a mask. I should preface this by saying that I used upgrade certificates in my status. Got me one of the ways upgraded without using one. So I was in first class, but the planes that I was taking because of how they’ve rearranged routes and stuff, um, well, they, they sometimes have these planes configured, even pre [00:03:00] COVID, but it’s the, it’s the business class flights.

[00:03:03] So it was like the international planes. So your first class seat is like a lay flat seat rather than the typical thing. Well, yeah, I purposely book those flights for that reason. Um, because you pay the same amount of money for first class and you could either be sitting in like a shitty chair where you have a little bit more leg room or like a private, you know, full thing.

[00:03:27] Um, so. If the scheduling works. I always, if I’m going to Atlanta or New York, um, I always like look for those things and I was trying to book this flight, but, um, the, the flying itself was fine. Um, so the reason I prefaced it with that was because I was in my own little cocoon area. So like I have a mask on, which is annoying, cause my makes my rosacea act up, but you know, where, whatever, and I’m in my own little like space, I don’t know what it would have been like, you know, [00:04:00] normal stuff.

[00:04:01] Um, but the flight out was not busy because it was a red eye. The flight back was packed and both airports were packed and. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know. Like that still feels weird. The other thing, so it was weird. Cause like the airport and stuff like feels like it’s back to normal, even though we know things aren’t back to normal, but then they won’t give you a blanket or a pillow or actual food on the airplane and the lounge is restricted.

[00:04:33] So, you know, like there’s this weird half-measures so it was like one of those things where like, you kind of feel like you’re back to normal, but then you’re reminded of all the ways you’re not right. So that’s kind of a weird thing, but I mean, it was fine. I’m, I’m double Vaxxed. I’m not concerned about any of that.

[00:04:50] I trust the vaccines and at a certain point we’re going to have to get out in, you know, the open anyway, right? Like not everybody, I guess, but most of us are going to have [00:05:00] to. Did you do that anyway? So I’m, I’m not super concerned that way, but it was, I guess, slightly disconcerting given the numbers, what we know that vaccination numbers are just to see so many people at the airport and traveling like,

[00:05:20] Brett: [00:05:20] Yeah, because you’d know that not everyone there is

[00:05:24] Christina: [00:05:24] exactly, exactly. And, and I’m, I’m on this weird thing. I don’t want to go on a whole rant on this, but I am curious about your thoughts and I want to hear about your mental health updates stuff. Like I’m not necessarily in favor of like, I don’t love the idea of like digital, like passport vaccination passports in the sense that I, I want like, you know, a government mandated like list, but at the same time, It does bother me that no one is checking those [00:06:00] things.

[00:06:00] Like, I feel like there’s a middle ground. Like for instance, when you travel to certain countries, you have to show that you’ve been vaccinated. Now they don’t have a database that they’re checking up against. But, but they’re at least looking for proof that, that you have that. And the fact that that’s not even happening, I don’t love, right.

[00:06:18] Like I, I’m not saying that I want in our country. And it was some countries which are not, America are fine with having government databases of people’s vaccination records. And I don’t trust the us government, uh, to, to be secure with that stuff. Just don’t be, we are the United States of America. We are not Korea.

[00:06:35] We are not Singapore. We are not like other places. Like that’s, that’s not who we are as a country for better or for worse. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be at least trying to enforce or have people show proof that they’ve been vaccinated. You know what I mean? Even if people were able to fake it, like that requires a level of, of [00:07:00] malice and a forethought for someone to go through that process of baking a certificate, you know?

[00:07:04] Brett: [00:07:04] Yeah, especially for something they could just do for free.

[00:07:08] Christina: [00:07:08] Exactly, exactly. Like, like, I just, I, I, it just, it just, it’s, it’s interesting to me that like, to go to Brazil and to come back from Brazil, I have to be vaccinated against number of things. But with COVID like some countries do want proof of it, but in the United States, they’re just like, yeah, whatever.

[00:07:28] Brett: [00:07:28] Well, uh, the, the fact that the CDC guidelines are entirely an honor system. Uh, it doesn’t work because the people who are most likely to not be vaccinated are the people who would most likely, uh, stop wearing their masks anyway, like it, the, the crossover there isn’t such that people are going to feel bad that they didn’t get back to native and, and do the right thing.

[00:07:58] Christina: [00:07:58] No, I mean, I think, I think the [00:08:00] thing that like, Makes up all apart. Cause I do feel like in some cases, in some societies you might be able to rely on an honor system maybe a little bit more than, than what you would, um, in America. But we don’t think the rules apply to us like collectively as a culture.

[00:08:20] Like we just don’t and, and I can even feel that way about myself with certain things, not for stuff like fascinations, but with other smaller things. And you’re like, ah, whatever, I whatever, you know? Um, so it’s like this weird thing where, you know, in, in all places for the honor system not to work because in some places the honor system I think could work, right?

[00:08:38] Like going back to the cultures who have the, the, the government mandated, you know, like vaccination records, like in Singapore, people would not lie about this, um, because they would be afraid that the government would like shoot them and here. Yeah. It’s just like trustworthy and I get why the CDC guidelines are what they are, because they’re correct.

[00:09:00] [00:09:00] But it seems to miss the fact that we’re not yet at herd immunity and that people will just lie and we’ll just be like, well, and then we’ll write it off as being like, well, I haven’t been around anyone, so it doesn’t matter if I say that I’ve been vaccinated or not, because I haven’t been sick in a year and no one I know has died.

[00:09:18] Brett: [00:09:18] Right.

[00:09:19] Christina: [00:09:19] So I don’t know. Anyway, that’s my rant.

[00:09:21] Brett: [00:09:21] I’m supposed to. Okay. So there are, uh, it compliance standards at my new job that require that I run McAfee, antivirus on all of my computers.

[00:09:35] Christina: [00:09:35] Oh God. We had that for awhile,

[00:09:40] Brett: [00:09:40] Like it much like vaccination. It’s one of those things. I feel like. I can get away with, because I I’m, I’m careful. I know, I know what happens on my machine. It’s not like they’re checking to see if I have like sip disabled or anything. Uh, it, they did point out that, and I don’t know how they know this, but [00:10:00] I did not have, uh, uh, disc encryption turned on, on my new mini, which was an entire, uh, an oversight on my part.

[00:10:07] I absolutely meant to have disc description, but I get these emails that are like, here are the following things about your personal machines that are not in compliance. And, uh, I find it, I feel like I’m above the law in those regards and I’m not obviously like I have to, I have to meet compliance. They, they pay me to be compliant, so it’s fine.

[00:10:32] But I get that attitude of like, this doesn’t apply to me.

[00:10:37] Christina: [00:10:37] See, that’s the perfect example. Cause I do the same thing. Like we have a MDM system, so they, because of the compliance issue that you noted, like they just installed anti-virus on our Macs. If your Mac was in tuned and it was a controlled by the MDM, but there were ways where you could still access certain resources.

[00:10:56] Without it being intuned. So you would [00:11:00] still technically you need to have an anti-virus, but there’d be no way of them knowing. Um, and, but they had to like do that now they got rid of the Sofos and now they’re using the Microsoft antivirus, which is better. But yeah, it’s one of those things, like we’ve all been in jobs and had stuff where we’re like, well, I know I’m supposed to do this, but I don’t.

[00:11:17] Yeah. So.

[00:11:20] Brett: [00:11:20] I want to come back to this cause I have a cool story about it. But I will say that. Okay. So I haven’t, since the last time this came up, I have not had a manic episode. Um, I have slept for months now without interruption. And, uh, the only thing that’s been happening is about, about once a month, I have three or four days of this, like very hypo depression.

[00:11:50] Like just like, I just want to sit on the couch. I’m not like down on myself. I don’t have the like dark thoughts. I just don’t have the [00:12:00] motivation. And so I’m going through that right now for the first time, since starting the new job and I’m finding like, I can. I can cope. Like I’m not going to be on my game, but I can still make it to meetings.

[00:12:15] I can still get my work done. And like, it’s a relief to me to know that I can pull this off. Um, I, I, I’m a little bit like the, my direct teammates. I let know what’s going on because, uh, um, I’m an open honest person and it feels better to me to, uh, just talk about it than it does. I mean, that’s why I’m always honest about my mental health, because actually like physically hurts me to like bottle it up and, and try to hide stuff.

[00:12:48] Christina: [00:12:48] yeah.

[00:12:49] actually, I think that’s a great point because I think a lot of people don’t know that sometimes about like depression and things like that is that I think for a lot of us, we spend so much time not talking [00:13:00] about it and hiding it and pretending to be okay. And it eventually bubbles up and comes out and it’s so much worse.

[00:13:07] Brett: [00:13:07] Yeah, but I haven’t talked to my manager about it yet. And I just like, since starting, they switched my manager and my first manager, I would have felt more comfortable bringing it up. But now I plan to, but I don’t know how it’s going to go over.

[00:13:27]Christina: [00:13:27] That’s hard. I I’ve run into this myself too, and I don’t have the frequent episodes or infer, you know what I mean? Not frequent, but more frequent episodes. Like, like you do, my step tends to be those, um, Like I don’t have the highs and the lows. And so I just have like prolonged periods of depression, frankly, that I often ignore and, uh, try to kind of find a way to work through or whatever, but it is a difficult thing to have a conversation about, especially when you’re new or when you have a new manager, legally, they [00:14:00] are required to provide accommodations and they are, they are required to not hold it against you.

[00:14:05] But Yeah, you feel like if I say this thing, especially somebody, I don’t know, are they going to look at me differently? Are they going treat me differently? Am I going to get fewer opportunities? It’s a real question. yeah.

[00:14:17] Brett: [00:14:17] Yeah. I, I have developed like a, uh, a philosophy that says that I, I can’t, I won’t work at a job where I have to lie about my mental health, so it’s got to happen. Uh, And like I said, like, I’ve talked to teammates about it. I just need to, uh, uh, but if it doesn’t affect my work, should I like, that’s the question in my head?

[00:14:46] Like, do I, even if I’m able to do my job, does it really, maybe not.

[00:14:53] Christina: [00:14:53] I mean, I think it depends, like I don’t actively talk about it with my managers and whatnot, but I know that they [00:15:00] see me on social media and they know that, that stuff. And so, and I don’t hide it and I don’t hide it for a reason. Um, I don’t hide it because it’s important for me not to. And cause we’ve heard from people like even just doing the show, we’ve heard from people who, us being open and honest about our mental health has helped them.

[00:15:18] And before we even did our show, I’d heard from people who, and this was before I had any sort of status, if you want to save and have status now, um, which, which, which is debatable, but. Before I was even established. Um, but I, you know, it was on Twitter and I would talk about my medications and things like that.

[00:15:36] And, and I’d heard from people later on who was like you talking about what medicines you want to be an honest about it got me to go to the doctor and you only have to hear that once. I think, um, and, and both of us have heard this many times. I think you’ve heard it more than I have, because you’ve been really honest about stuff, which is amazing.

[00:15:54] But I feel like you only have to hear that once for that to be like altering in terms [00:16:00] making you not want to shut up about it. Right.

[00:16:01] Brett: [00:16:01] for sure.

[00:16:03] Christina: [00:16:03] Like that, that, that, that’s all it takes. But, um, I don’t know if it’s not affecting your work right now. I don’t think you have to bring it up. I do feel like if you know that it could potentially be an issue, you don’t need to go into the details.

[00:16:17] You just need to say, Hey, sometimes there are periods where I might be a little less productive or it might be a little, you know, down.

[00:16:26] Brett: [00:16:26] I feel like it would be good to get ahead of that. Cause there are definitely.

[00:16:29] Christina: [00:16:29] Yeah, that that would be my Mo my recommendation, because like what I do when I have, and I’ve gone through the manager gauntlet, I’ve had like nine managers in four years. Um, I think it’s about to be 10. So, you know, um, it is that I try to tell people who I work with on a consistent basis. Hey, I’m ADHD. Um, during meetings, like this has not been an issue in the last year, but an in-person stuff like, and I’ve done this for years.

[00:16:55] I’m like, Hey, I’m paying attention. Like, if I’m in a one-on-one meeting, this is [00:17:00] not going to be the case. But if I’m in like a big group meeting with like 10 people, I’m usually going to be on my phone and I’m usually gonna be playing like a, a match three game, and I’m doing that. So I can concentrate on the meeting.

[00:17:11] It is literally like, even my doctor has said, this is something that is good. And, but people will, will take it as rudeness. And so I try to get off of the office and be like, look, if this is really bothersome or whatever, we can try to work something else out, but I’m, I’m ADHD. I literally cannot focus unless my brain is doing something else.

[00:17:30] This is how I handle it. Just so you know, this is what’s going on and people are, are, um, usually completely fine with it. I’ve only had a couple instances where people haven’t been. And usually in those cases where they’ll, we’ll try to kind of call me out, like, you know, a teacher would in school and try to be like, Christina, what are you doing this?

[00:17:46] And then I’m like completely on it, completely engaged. And they’re like, Oh, well she’s completely engaged. So we’ll, we’ll leave it alone. Um, and, and have been other instances where I haven’t maybe been as honest as I should have been and I’ve been late on stuff and I’ve [00:18:00] been bad about it that I’ve had to kind of, you know, go with my tail between my legs.

[00:18:03] And I’m like, Oh no, I should have been more honest. I, I can’t speak for your situation. I don’t know your manager or anything. Um, I think getting ahead of it would be a good thing, but I also think that the last year has been a good thing in the sense that managers and corporations, um, and, and big and small companies have to have, have to be a lot more understanding because everybody now, I think whether they’ve suffered from like an officially diagnosed condition or not knows what, like having, uh, a bad mental state is like now, right?

[00:18:38] Like I feel like the whole world collectively has been going through something where we, we haven’t gone through it before. And so. People are more accommodating by design because they know that like, life is hectic because even if you don’t have any like mental health conditions, if you’re completely neuro-typical, but you have kids who are now being, you know, [00:19:00] having to be homeschooled and you have a small house and you’re trying to figure out how to work and do that other stuff that adds stress.

[00:19:07] And that can add maybe, maybe somebody was laid off. Maybe there was some other stuff going on. Like there are now these things that I think people collectively have empathy for. So I think that there’s more understanding than there would have been a year ago, where if you go to a new manager who you don’t know anything about, and you’re a new employee and you’re like, Hey, sometimes I might not be as productive because of this.

[00:19:31] And they might be like, well, this guy’s just a fuck up. Or what the hell now? I think people are like, yeah, we know that everybody has stuff and we can be accommodating.

[00:19:40] Brett: [00:19:40] Did you read the New York times article on languishing?

[00:19:44] Christina: [00:19:44] I did. You sent it to me and it was really good.

[00:19:46] Brett: [00:19:46] Yeah. So like, there’s this concept that, uh, that the pandemic has highlighted of. Uh, you’re not depressed. You’re just not thriving in a situation [00:20:00] where you normally would where you’re just languishing and they’ve added a word for it. It’s like part of the lexicon now and people who are languishing now have a higher chance of having, uh, uh, uh, PTSD 10 years from now.

[00:20:18] So it is like, it’s a legit, uh, problem. It’s not just, Oh, you’re having a block day. Uh, there’s this concept that people who are otherwise, uh, not currently diagnosed with depression, not currently diagnosed with anxiety. Uh, but are going through something that can have long-term effects. And, and I do think that the pandemic has really highlighted mental health in a way that affects more than just those with, uh, the common diagnoses.

[00:20:52] Christina: [00:20:52] Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree. And, uh, I think what I hope is maybe a good thing [00:21:00] from this is that it will, it will make people. Who haven’t experienced it at all, like more empathetic for the people who have, and that it will maybe reduce the stigma. And that’s maybe a big ask and maybe that won’t happen, but, but, but that’s, that’s the hope anyway.

[00:21:14] Brett: [00:21:14] So here’s, here’s a cool story. You ready? Um, I, I, uh, it was after our last episode, I, I get, uh, uh, I don’t know why I can’t talk today. I get a, uh, Slack message from a guy named David who works at Oracle and has been listening to over-tired for years. And, uh, so, so there are people within the company listening, and he had listened to the episode where I complained about the VPN and he showed up and told me that, uh, the app Shimo or any VPN app that works with, uh, Cisco, uh, I could use instead of the, any connect [00:22:00] app that doesn’t store my credentials.

[00:22:03] So now I can just, I, I, well single click in my menu bar that can get me on and off the VPN without having to store my password or like paste my password every time. And,

[00:22:17] Christina: [00:22:17] so good.

[00:22:18] Brett: [00:22:18] and there’s like HTTP proxies that you can use to still be able to use like Spotify while you’re on the VPN. And he,

[00:22:27] Christina: [00:22:27] Oh, hell yeah.

[00:22:28] Brett: [00:22:28] He changed the world for me.

[00:22:30] It was awesome.

[00:22:31] Christina: [00:22:31] That’s so cool. I love it so much. Um, I’ve had this a couple times. No, no. Over tire listeners, I don’t think. Um, but, uh, although I probably do work with some people who listen over tired now, but I don’t think anybody who’d listened to it like beforehand, but I do sometimes have like, um, um, Coworkers who I’ve never met, um, email me or Slack me after teams.

[00:22:53] Me, I guess, after they’ve heard me on twit or, um, a rocket even, and it’s the same [00:23:00] kind of thing, which is just the best. Um, so his name is David. You said

[00:23:05] Brett: [00:23:05] I I don’t know if I give his full name. I don’t know how

[00:23:09] Christina: [00:23:09] no, no, no, no, no, no. Don’t, don’t give us full name, but that’s a very common, very common name. So, but yeah, shout out to David because that’s awesome and, and good a good colleague being there.

[00:23:19] And I knew, I knew that there had to be like people who knew tips and tricks and Shimo is that that’s a set-up app. Isn’t it So that’s awesome. Um, yeah, I love that. Um, that’s really, really good.

[00:23:32] Brett: [00:23:32] Speaking of setup apps, have you used Pelletreau Oh my God. I’m super. So you know how, like in a Mac app you can type command shift question Mark and focus the help menu, and then use that to search all the menu items. What if you could do that with fuzzy matching and get all of the option? Uh, like sometimes you hold down option and menu items change.

[00:23:58] What, if you could get all of those in a [00:24:00] pallet, the way you would in like a vs code. That’s Pelletreau does. So I can type in any app. I can take command shift P and then just type any part of a menu item and then hit return and execute it.

[00:24:16] Christina: [00:24:16] I’m okay. I’m installing this right now. Cause that’s awesome. That’s something that I would seriously, I will use all the time because that is frequently. One of those things that I sometimes have an issue with, like there are other apps that have done similar things to that, but not quite to that extent, but there are oftentimes when I’m trying to access a menu thing and I really just want to do it from the, from the command line or not command line, but from my keyboard,

[00:24:38] Brett: [00:24:38] And with big Sur, where a lot of times, if I use that command shift question, Mark trick, it’ll find the menu item, but I can’t hit return to actually execute it. And then when you move the mouse to go to it, the whole thing disappears. Right. And then you have to like drill back down and menu option again.

[00:24:55] don’t know why that’s happening, but it’s kind of defeated the purpose of that [00:25:00] trick for me. back.

[00:25:02] Christina: [00:25:02] Okay. That’s awesome. Yeah, no. And that, that would defeat the purpose because the whole purpose is like, you don’t wanna move the mouse around. And so it, and, and like the whole purpose is you’re in your brain, you’re in your like zone. You don’t want to do that.

[00:25:13] Brett: [00:25:13] your flow.

[00:25:14] Christina: [00:25:14] got, well, that’s exactly it.

[00:25:15] Like, this is the thing. Like I have nothing against the mouse at all. Um, neither of us do, but sometimes like when you’re just in your flow, like you just want to use your keys, man.

[00:25:26] Brett: [00:25:26] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:29] Christina: [00:25:29] That’s awesome. Okay. I’m installing that now. Um, should we, uh, actually, this might be a good as a segue for, uh, for Headspace, since we just talked about mental health.

[00:25:39] Brett: [00:25:39] Oh, yeah, totally. Sponsor: Headspace [00:25:41] So one of our sponsors today is Headspace, which I have been loving for quite some time. Uh, if people keep telling you to try meditation and you’re like, when would I have time? You should check out Headspace. Headspace is a daily dose of mindfulness in the form of [00:26:00] guided meditations and an easy to use app.

[00:26:02] Headspace is one of the only apps advancing the field of mindfulness and meditation through clinically validated research, head, Headspace meditation, sorta just one minute each, which you definitely have time for. And they even have a set of walking meditation. So they’re easy to fit into even the busiest schedules.

[00:26:20] And if you’re feeling overwhelmed, Headspace even has a three minute SOS meditation. You can do anytime you need it. Headspace is proven to help you feel better. Just 30 days of Headspace lowered stress by 32% and just four sessions can reduce burnout by 14%, which in my line of work, uh, in Christina’s line of work, uh, 14% less burnout is, is, is not something to laugh at.

[00:26:47] Um, and as in both of us are ADHD people and like the idea, the concept of meditation can seem very foreign, uh, or you can just assume it’s [00:27:00] not for you, but Headspace makes it so simple and so easy. That, uh, you can quickly come to the realization that perhaps an ADHD mind is the mind that most needs meditation.

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[00:27:54] Christina: [00:27:54] Awesome.

[00:27:54] Brett: [00:27:54] Good call. That was a, that was a great spot to slot that in, not [00:28:00] this not the lead in, but the mental health lead

[00:28:04] Christina: [00:28:04] Yeah. Yeah. Well, but, but Fletcher thing like Betsy, then you talked about the ADHD thing. So like it all fit. Like

[00:28:10] Brett: [00:28:10] Oh, my gosh. We’re we’re. We are we’re fucking professionals.

[00:28:14] Christina: [00:28:14] we are fucking professionals. It’s good. It’s good stuff.

[00:28:17] Brett: [00:28:17] So yesterday I was eating some, uh, some mushroom jerky it’s like beef jerky made with mushrooms, and I was waiting for my bean based sausage to cool, to thaw so that I could have lunch. And I was going to cook it in my fancy, uh, pan that, uh, that I love. And I bought because I loved the knife that I bought from the same company.

[00:28:48] And, uh, it dawned on me that all of these things. Came from Instagram ads and even, even the non-alcoholic beer I was [00:29:00] going to have with lunch that I was very much looking forward to because BrewDog is amazing. Like it all, it all came from Instagram ads and I’ve realized Instagram is uncomfortably. Good.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:13] Christina: [00:29:13] It is, it is. Um, so this is an interesting question and I don’t know the answer to this. I don’t think it will affect anything, but I’m curious, you know, the whole iOS, uh, 14.5, like whole like no tracking thing. Like Facebook’s mad about it. Um, a lot of apps are mad about it and they’re like, Hey, this will really help us improve your ads.

[00:29:35] Can we track you? And I’m like, no, I don’t think that your Instagram ads should be impacted by this. Although Facebook certainly think so. Cause I feel like the Instagram ads are usually based on like the accounts you follow and the stuff you interact with.

[00:29:49] Brett: [00:29:49] Yes, but here’s the thing. Instagram, since I turned on the tracking blocking has started going all [00:30:00] in, on advertising hair products to me,

[00:30:04] Christina: [00:30:04] which is like not

[00:30:05] Brett: [00:30:05] which it makes sense because I’ve been doing this like history of Brett’s hair, uh, posting pictures of my various Mohawks and bleach jobs and, and punk rock hairstyles.

[00:30:18] And so it’s safe for them to assume that I have hair. If they know nothing else about me. But I get these ads of like these dudes with like shoulder length hair, talking about how tangled it gets and how this conditioner smooths it out. And they have this whole hair care regime that regimen that does not in any way interest me.

[00:30:45] And it’s almost comforting to know that I have foiled Instagram advertising, but at the same time, like seriously, I’ve discovered so much good stuff. right.

[00:30:56] Christina: [00:30:56] Yeah, no, I have to, I haven’t bought a ton of stuff off of Instagram, although I [00:31:00] have bought some things, but it’s been one of those things where I always feeling bad about it, but then I see shirts and I feel other stuff, but it’s effective. And like, and it makes me hate Mark Zuckerberg a little bit because I’m like, God damn it.

[00:31:09] Like not the Mark Zuckerberg created, um, Instagram or even had once to do with it for its first decade or close to decade of, of existence. But you know what I mean? Like, it just makes me just cause like he’s the worst and, um, you know, it just makes you, it’s just one of those things where you’re like, I don’t know about this.

[00:31:28] Um, but yeah. Um, he, uh, for sure, like that’s one of those interesting, like dammit, you know, like things, um, because it’s effective, like it works and.

[00:31:43] Brett: [00:31:43] like when small businesses ask me like what they should, where they should put their ad budgets, which it doesn’t happen often. I’m not an, I’m not an ad guy. I’m not like the go-to guy for this, but when it comes up, I’m always like, you know, Instagram seems to [00:32:00] allow you to actually target people who would be super interested.

[00:32:04] And as far as bang for the buck goes, it’s where I would recommend putting your money.

[00:32:09] Christina: [00:32:09] Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. And it’s actually funny. So I’m also not an ad person, but I was asked, there was a whole thing where I was asked to, um, give a talk at the, um, Association of national advertisers a number of years ago, which was an interesting event. Um, and I basically had to do a trend report. I was basically kind of doing a trend analysis thing of like, what are some of the bigger trends we are seeing as social media and in other places.

[00:32:38] And one of the things that I was talking about, and this was 2013, I think, so this was Instagram ads were new. And I was like, no, this is where you, this is where you need to be putting your money. This is going to be a big deal like this. And that was before they even had a lot of the targeting and, and like the breadth of the, of the campaigns that they have now.

[00:32:57] But I was like, no, this is effective people like [00:33:00] the photos, especially if you make an engaging ad, which I think the nature of Instagram forces, advertisers to make better ads, that they want them to work. Like you can’t just get away with like your typical, like really cheap, like, you know, Fivey belly fat ad.

[00:33:16] Like you, you have those, but instead what happened. Right. Exactly. Well, the thing is, is that what’ll happen there is that you just pay influencers to, to drink the fat tummy tea and, and like do that, you know, Stephanie, like, Hey, take the, and it’ll make you look like this. Like that’s how you get away with that.

[00:33:33] But if you want the actual ads to work, like you have to make it look like part of people’s feeds and, and stand out. Like there’s a, there’s a certain science and probably like psychological thing you have to do with it. Like there’s an art to it. Right. And, and so, I don’t know. I, I, again, I’m not an ad person, but I, I feel.

[00:33:53] I feel like I called that relatively early compared to people who are alleged experts [00:34:00] because, um, I got, I didn’t get a blow back from it that I did get some surprise from people, you know, who I, I, after I gave the talk, cause I, it was, I was one of the keynotes at that conference that year. And, you know, people who these were, this is their profession and, and seemed surprised that I was like, so bullish on Instagram ads.

[00:34:18] Um, and yeah, I would do the same thing. It’d be like, if you’re trying to figure out where to put your money, I would be looking at either direct sponsorships into things like, um, you know, podcasts or YouTube videos, not pre-roll, but like, you know, host read stuff that fits a YouTube thing for podcasts, you might be able to actually do, you know, uh, the generated in that generated,

[00:34:39] Brett: [00:34:39] role. Yeah.

[00:34:40] Christina: [00:34:40] stuff, right?

[00:34:40] Like that, that might, might work too. Um, and Instagram, cause you’re more than likely going to be able to fit, like get a lot more like dedicated people to really engage with what you’re wanting.

[00:34:52] Brett: [00:34:52] Here’s my advice for YouTube advertisers. This is what works on me and I am possibly an outlier, but [00:35:00] don’t try to trick me if it, if, if it looks like, like maybe someone I follow and forgot about is, is super psyched about this product. And I see that it’s a sponsored link. I I’m done I’m out if it’s clever and it shows up in my feed and it’s clearly an ad, but it’s for something that honestly I would pause to watch.

[00:35:22] You’re good. If it’s too clever, if you’ve done this whole like super produced scripted. Like a hilarious skit about your product. I, I will probably roll my eyes and continue on it’s this, there’s this certain level of cleverness that it’s just like, I, I love commercials. Like I, I really enjoy commercials.

[00:35:47] I wish that, uh, Hulu had more commercials that weren’t insurance companies. Um, not that I hate all Jake from state farm love that guy that got weird with the [00:36:00] talking dog, but those, those were, I like those ads. I think they’re doing a great job. Um, but anyway, like there it’s still, it needs to feel like an ad to me, for me to be comfortable with it.

[00:36:11] I don’t like to be tricked and I don’t like to be, uh, uh, if it’s too clever, it feels like it’s manipulative. And I just, just advertise to me like a normal person. Like I like a goddamn normal advertisement.

[00:36:26] Christina: [00:36:26] Yeah, no, I agree with that. Uh, I also feel like there are some, because I’ve watched a lot of the tech, uh, like a computer tech, like a YouTuber is like, I feel like Linus tech tips does a good job with their ad reads. Um, they’re, they’re usually not too clever. They’ll do funny kind of segues. And, and that can be useful, but yeah, I mean, just, I love a good advertisement.

[00:36:47] Um, I’ve always loved like good advertising, uh, which is weird. Cause like I find a lot of the ad tech practices really creepy and gross, but I’ve li I used to collect print advertisements. I used to have albums as a [00:37:00] kid of what I thought were really well-executed campaigns. And I love commercials I used, I know, I know I used to watch the Cleo awards when they would air them on TV, you know, and which is an Anthem, uh, you know, now is to think that they would even do But like, but like Fox would air the Cleo awards and you’re like, okay. You know? And, um, I don’t know. It feels like in our, I don’t know, like I feel like advertising is an art and I think this is one of the reasons why mad men was so successful as a show. Right. Because it kind of like kind of opened up people.

[00:37:31] Well, it was successful for a lot of reasons, but I think that part of it was that a lot of people. Innately have good memories associated with certain campaigns and that there can be like a real power in advertisement.

[00:37:42] that isn’t like creepy and gross because there’s an art to it. If you’re making something that’s funny or memorable or, or whatever.

[00:37:51] Um, but in our bid as a society to just go to being as targeted as possible and getting [00:38:00] as much data as possible and just trying to like ring like as much money and have as many high click-throughs and whatnot, like that’s, I feel like that’s ruined the art of advertising.

[00:38:08] Brett: [00:38:08] Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. So, so how’s the dose gone.

[00:38:15] Christina: [00:38:15] Oh, my God. So crypto in general is a free-fall right now, which, you know, fine. Um, but my doge was up, so I was down. And then at the end of last week, like it recovered and I was up over, I was up over 55 cents and I should have sold that I should have sold then. And I didn’t. And now I’m like almost at breakeven, I’m like, I’ve only made $450 at this point.

[00:38:40]