205: A Deep Kind of Mauve Color

01Intro + 2

[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] hold on. You’re ready.

[00:00:09]Christina: [00:00:09] that is nifty. This is over. You’re listening to over-tired. I’m Christina Warren.

[00:00:15] Brett: [00:00:15] She’s delighted. This is Brett TURPs dress. She’s delighted because I just, I, I rigged up this whole soundboard using my stream deck and loop back and, uh, audio hijack. So I can just hit a button. And play soundtrack stuff. And so we can do this live and save me maybe five minutes of editing. I put like an hour into building this soundboard,

[00:00:40] Christina: [00:00:40] Right. So, but I love it actually. And it’s not about saving time because that’s not what any of the things that you build are about. It’s about the fact that you’ve done it. And, um, at some point maybe it will be time-saving, but it’s just really cool. I’m very excited.

[00:00:59] Brett: [00:00:59] me [00:01:00] too. I just, I ordered a bigger stream deck. I ran out of buttons.

[00:01:06] Christina: [00:01:06] I knew that it was going to happen. Cause you got the mini. I was like, man, you probably, you’re probably an Excel person if I’m being

[00:01:11] Brett: [00:01:11] Cause, well, cause you can have folders, right? So like you can have five buttons in a folder, but you always lose one button to the back button and then you can have it switch profiles. So you can get six entirely different buttons depending on what app is in the foreground. But for something like a soundboard, I need it in the foreground.

[00:01:30] Even when I’ll talk about it after it comes out, I wrote, Oh, so w we’ll get to this, we’ll get to why I wrote all next week posts already. Um, but first I’m currently in a text chat with my cousin who I don’t talk to often.

[00:01:47] Haven’t really spoken with her since. Probably the nineties. Um, but we’re catching up and she she’s in California. And so like 20 minutes from her, there are [00:02:00] fires right now and they’ve been locked inside for, with the air quality, the way it is. How’s your end of the West coast.

[00:02:07] Christina: [00:02:07] Real not good, obviously, not as bad as California in terms of, um, you know, the horrors that are happening, like the skies aren’t orange, and we don’t have wildfires breaking out, although Oregon, which is just, you know, below us does, but the air quality right now, I’m trying to pull it up on my phone. The air quality right now is let’s see what the number is.

[00:02:34] Is two 37, which is, is very much in the very unhealthy category. And like, there’s this, this color kind of wheel it’s in the purple. And there’s only one color after that. It’s at the beginning of the purple, but there’s only one color after that. That’s like this, this deep kind of Mav color, which I’m assuming is like, You’re, you’re not allowed to, you know, go anywhere without a really good [00:03:00] filter mask.

[00:03:00] And on the one hand, like I haven’t gone outside cause pandemic. And so like on the one hand, I guess it’s good that everybody is, is forced to wear masks for social distancing reasons. On the other hand, the, the fabric mask don’t do shit for this.

[00:03:17] Brett: [00:03:17] Right.

[00:03:18] Christina: [00:03:18] So. You know, this is one of those situations where you really would want the people P E like, like the, the in 95 masks.

[00:03:25] Brett: [00:03:25] well, what’s actually, uh, I can’t remember what all the letters and numbers mean. It’s pretty, it’s pretty intuitive, but I forget, um, the, the masks that would be best for air quality are not good for viral spread. So like at this point, everyone needs to have at least three different kinds of mask on them at all times.

[00:03:46]If you’re in California, I mean, I don’t need a pollution mask.

[00:03:50] Christina: [00:03:50] Right. I was going to say, yeah, cause I do remember that, for instance, I like the reason that Apple had so many in 95 or in 97 or whatever, the number was mass, that they were able to donate. [00:04:00] Cause they had like over a million of them was not because, cause they’re like, Oh, there’s going to be a pandemic.

[00:04:04] It’s the same thing with Facebook. It was because the wildfire. So, you know, um, but the, regardless, like all those types are hard to get, whether they’re good for, you know, spreading virus detection or not. And you know, uh, Like a clock mask. It’s better than nothing, but it’s, it doesn’t do shit to actually, you know, filter that stuff out.

[00:04:25] Like the few times I have been been pseudo outsider or whatever, like, I mean, you can just smell and taste the smoke and you can see it visibly because you can’t really see anything else. It looks like. Because, you know, we get, we, we get fog in Seattle, but this is not bog. This is smoke. So we this before, not this bad, but a couple of years ago, again, when there were like massive wildfires, we were getting it both from like coming down from Vancouver.

[00:04:52] And then also, you know, some stuff I guess, wafting over from San Francisco. But these I’m assuming we’re all getting from, from Oregon. [00:05:00] So. Yeah, no, the, uh, 2020, certainly if you look at the photos, I mean, like between everything that’s happening to me, it is, it is an apocalyptic year. Like I have to think that some of the religious, uh, like insane people, not to say that all religious people are insane, but like the people who’ve been like predicting the rapture and all that stuff, like are super, super stoked because you know, it does look like all the stuff is happening.

[00:05:28] Brett: [00:05:28] Somehow. I like I grew up in a world where it was constantly, well, this is a sign of the end times, you know, this is leading up to Armageddon. Um, and now all of the sudden these things that clearly are signs of the end, don’t seem to register that way anymore. I haven’t heard one Christian say, obviously this is the end of the world.

[00:05:55]Christina: [00:05:55] That’s really interesting. I wonder, I wonder how much politics plays into that.

[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Brett: [00:06:00] Well, I think it’s entirely politics. I think as long as it’s them causing the end of the world, then it’s a, it’s not Armageddon. It’s just a bad year.

[00:06:09]Christina: [00:06:09] Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of disappointing that that’s.

[00:06:14] Brett: [00:06:14] Right. We should all be cheering on the apocalypse at this point.

[00:06:19] Christina: [00:06:19] I mean, I think so. I’m like, what’s the point of having like, uh, you know, uh, being like apocalyptical and whatnot, if you’re not going to see, like, I mean, honestly, we’re very close to, you know, toads, like raining down, like that’s, that’s where we’re at.

[00:06:35]Brett: [00:06:35] I’ve had two great title ideas so far a deep kind of mob color. And apocalyptical, I’ll decide before the end of the show.

[00:06:43] Christina: [00:06:43] Fantastic. Fantastic. A quick update for you, um, since, um, your air quality is fine. Uh, how, how, how how’s the med situation?

[00:06:51] Brett: [00:06:51] well, okay. So I actually wrote a, a long post on my blog last week. Um, [00:07:00] you know, I go through these regular periods of not sleeping, but I never talk about why very much. Um, and it’s partly because I haven’t fully understood it. Until last couple years, but I’m bipolar. And I get these manic spaces, manic swings, manic episodes, and I’ll go through three to five days.

[00:07:25] Yeah. Of not sleeping, getting a bunch of stuff done. Um, they’re relatively mild in that. Like I know when they’re happening, like a lot of bipolar people that are here from, they don’t know when they’re manic. And they just think they’re being normal and making really good decisions when they are. In fact not, um, I don’t have that problem, but I’ve decided to start talking more about the bipolar stuff.

[00:07:51] It’s super easy to talk about ADHD. Like everyone could smile and nod and it’s well understood. [00:08:00] And you know, it’s something kids have it’s. It’s easy to grasp a bipolar scares people more though. So it has more stigma and I’m one for, uh, alleviating stigma, wherever possible.

[00:08:14]Christina: [00:08:14] Important cause I, I’m not bipolar, but I am informed agreement with trying to reduce the stigma around it. And honestly, that’s one of the reasons why I get, I think frustrated with people like Kanye West, who, well, not just him, but also the people around him when like he’s so clearly unmedicated and in pain and then going on, like, this is why I stopped even like commenting on the stuff that he did because.

[00:08:41] Like four years ago when we didn’t know what the situation was, there was like humor to it. Right. And then I stopped about four years ago because I very much got the, it like the, you know, it occurred to me. I was like, you know what? I think he’s [00:09:00] bipolar based on my own experiences with people who have it and things like that.

[00:09:03] I was like that this is what I think it is. And I don’t feel comfortable anymore, like making this into like a joke. Like I’m just, I’m just not comfortable with that. Okay. So then, you know, he, he becomes public about it, but it has the manic break, you know, kind of live on stage and whatnot. And then rather than. You know, kind of using that as an opportunity to do anything with it. He doesn’t, which is fine. He wants to deny it. He wants to try to pretend like, you know, um, it, it, it’s not a real thing. Okay, fine. That that’s his prerogative, but I become very bothered by the people in his family and his entourage who see the self destructive things that are happening and then refuse to do anything about it and enable him to be, you know, Running for president and, and talking and

[00:09:50] Brett: [00:09:50] Didn’t Kim didn’t Kim come out, um, like Instagram and talk about it.

[00:09:55] Christina: [00:09:55] She did. And I was actually very happy that she did that, but it’s like it, but it literally [00:10:00] took him like talking about his children and his wife and attacking her mother and her mother’s boyfriend. And, you know, claiming that he almost aborted his daughter and all this stuff while running for president.

[00:10:12] This is when this all happened for her to finally be like, okay, He’s not in a good place. This is what this reality is. And I appreciated that she did that, but it was, it bothered me that it’s like, okay, you’re completely fine profiting off of it. When, um, when, when, when he, when he’s, you know, putting, um, you know, I’m bipolar and I love it, or whatever, you know, on the, on the cover of one of his albums and, and he’s doing the other light, just.

[00:10:38] Like the unhinged stuff, which is clearly like, what happens when you’re in like a manic spiral and you’re not being treated like you’re fine profiting off of it. But once, you know, you personally become called out, that’s when you’re finally going to like speak up and say something like, I’m going to be honest.

[00:10:54] I’m not, I try not to judge, you know, other people’s situations with that too much, but that did kind of bother me. [00:11:00] Cause I’m like, I’m glad you said something and that’s really important, but you’ve, you’ve. Enabled this to be totally candid and you’ve profited off of it. And, and that just makes me really sad because he’s such a talented musician.

[00:11:15] And I want your perspective on this. Cause I other people I know who are I’ve wholer, one of the things that has kept them many times from being treated correctly is that they feel like they can’t create. Unless they have, you know, the, those, the, the, the mania, like, they need that to create. And, and, and I, I guess my question for you is age.

[00:11:38] Do you feel that? And B and I can relate to that a little bit. Like I’ve never had, um, mania, but I have had, like, with depression, depression has, has kicked off like really creative. Inspirational parts within myself. And it used to be a thing where I could even kind of tie it to my period because of the hormones I was on with that and whatnot.

[00:11:57] But then it got to the point that my depression was so bad [00:12:00] that I couldn’t even create anymore. And, and I realized, I was like, well, even the good parts are, are, are bullshit. So I’m not going to be able to, I’m not going to be able to create regardless. So I was just curious, like, from your perspective, do you, do you struggle with that and how have you been able to kind of overcome that.

[00:12:17] Brett: [00:12:17] Yeah. So when I’m stable for too long, I really start wishing for mania. Not because it feels great or leads to good things, but because it’s really the only time that I. I feel like I come up with good ideas. Um, I I’ve had, I’ve had some good ideas in my life and almost all of them have come during

[00:12:41] Christina: [00:12:41] Okay.

[00:12:42] Brett: [00:12:42] three-day coding binges, or, you know, whatever happened, whatever I get up to while not sleeping.

[00:12:49] And, um, and I do, I do. And, and when I swing to the other end, which is very predictable, there’s like if I have three days of not sleeping, [00:13:00] Uh, three days of a manic episode, I’m going to have probably three days or four days of depression following it. And once I hit that depression, there’s I just lose interest, all these things that seemed super interesting and seem like great ideas suddenly are colorless.

[00:13:18] Um, nothing. I can’t feel anything about them anymore, and I definitely am not coming up with. Creative ideas or the motivation to make them happen. That happens mostly for me during manic episodes. I can, when I’m stable, which is I’m stable more often than I’m swinging, I’m medicated. I’ve been medicated since my twenties.

[00:13:42] Um, and I’ve gotten really good at it. At recognizing my own symptoms and kind of have my own coping mechanisms for it. But when I’m perfectly stable, I can be a normally productive person. Uh, my whole life people have lauded my productivity. [00:14:00] Uh, you get so much you’re done and yeah, for, you know, three, three days a month, I really, I get an inhuman amount of stuff done, but they don’t generally see the weeks at a time that I.

[00:14:12] Just kind of, I’m just kind of a normal human and I mean, I feel like everyone has productivity issues. It’s combined with ADHD for me, um, which doesn’t help productivity in general, but yeah, in answer to your question. Yeah. Mania is I think a lot of the greatest creations, uh, artistically have come from manic depressives.

[00:14:39]Christina: [00:14:39] Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t disagree with that. I guess I’m just curious, like, from, from your perspective, like how do you reconcile the fact that you can have those, those bouts of brilliance, but also know that at a certain point, like it’s. Like, you know, um, what was the term I’m looking for? Like, it’s diminishing returns, like at a certain point, [00:15:00] it’s not going to continue.

[00:15:01] And if you don’t get back on medication, if you don’t find a way to sleep again, you’re not going to have those creative spurts like that, that doesn’t continue on. That’s what I’m

[00:15:11] Brett: [00:15:11] I think, I think I just accept, like I don’t, I don’t feel like I get a lot of choice in the matter. Um, I accept what comes and. Like I, the medication I take and I, I never go off my meds, like my bipolar episodes or not because I went off my meds. Um, I haven’t gone off my meds since I started them in my twenties.

[00:15:34] I think what you’re saying is that you have to see that there’s there’s bad.

[00:15:39] That comes with the good and you have to kind of, you, you have to acknowledge that there’s going to be, there’s going to be some pain involved, I guess. I don’t know. It’s a tough question. Really. I don’t think I have dealt with that.

[00:15:58] Christina: [00:15:58] Okay. Yeah, no, [00:16:00] I that’s just, that’s like, when I, when I look at people who are very clearly like talented, but are fighting the realities of that, I’m always, I’m always curious about that.

[00:16:10] Brett: [00:16:10] think it’s the, uh, the epitome of the tortured artist.

[00:16:13] Christina: [00:16:13] yeah, probably.

[00:16:16] Brett: [00:16:16] Maybe that’s what that means. Maybe that just means bipolar.

[00:16:20] Christina: [00:16:20] I mean it’s possible. I mean, I, there is something to be said. I think about great art and people who are in, who are depressed or bipolar, or, um, have some other form of mental illness. I think that, uh, the two are linked in some way, not to say that that’s the only way that you can produce great art, but it certainly is.

[00:16:41] I think a common ality, uh,

[00:16:43] Brett: [00:16:43] I mean,

[00:16:44] Christina: [00:16:44] for a lot of art.

[00:16:45] Brett: [00:16:45] are plenty of talented artists that do not rely on chemical imbalances to make their art. I don’t mean to imply that,

[00:16:53] Christina: [00:16:53] No. I know you don’t. I know you don’t. I do, but I, but I do think, I mean, studies have kind of shown, uh, that, that there are correlations, you [00:17:00] know, that it’s, it’s not just something that’s like, Oh, you know, it doesn’t mean every single person, but there are commonalities with, with, with having a chemical imbalance and being able to produce really amazing things.

[00:17:11] Um, which. You know, if you think about it kind of makes sense because everything is kind of going normal. That’s it doesn’t mean that the output isn’t great. It just means the output is going to be more expected. Right.

[00:17:23] Brett: [00:17:23] Yup. Um,

[00:17:25]Christina: [00:17:25] So have you been doing anything on like you’re on these sleepless binges? Has there been anything you’ve been working on.

[00:17:31] Brett: [00:17:31] Oh, well, like I said, I, I, I wrote a blog post for every day next week, and every one of them was about a project I was working on and a lot of it had to do with my app bunch weirdly. Um, I got back into developing that and working on the stream deck. And, uh, writing scripts and, uh, doing a lot of stuff. I go down rabbit holes, uh, aren’t worth sharing, uh, which like [00:18:00] when I go down a rabbit hole, the one thing that justifies it for me is maybe I get a blog post out of it.

[00:18:07] And that helped it built my career is built on like rabbit holes. Um, So like there’s a redeeming factor when I can like turn it into something I can write about something. I can share something I can provide to people. But so many of my rabbit holes when I’m manic are I get obsessed with like the one I wrote about in my blog posts was I was working on the command line interface that I made for the app hook.

[00:18:36] And I have this whole, uh, sub command based interface for it. That is self-documenting. Uh, I, I add a comment before each function and it, it builds itself at the end. It builds our doc documentation, but I wandered it to build markdown documentation. Yeah. Even though get hub is perfectly capable. Yeah. I’m taking an R doc document and making it your read me.

[00:19:00] [00:19:00] I wanted it to be a universal format like markdown and I spent. Hours. I spent from like midnight until 10:00 AM. Just writing one class that would output my documentation that’s marked down for. And let me, let me clarify. This is for a version of the CLI that isn’t even public yet. This was just for me, I’ll never, I’ll never be able to, uh, this will never benefit me.

[00:19:30] It was a complete waste of time.

[00:19:32]Christina: [00:19:32] I mean, I think that’s okay. I think that happens.

[00:19:35] Brett: [00:19:35] Sure. I just, I had a freelance gig I should have been working on.

[00:19:40] Christina: [00:19:40] Then that, then that then that’s disappointing. Like if you add actual work, okay. Then that’s, that’s the part that like, that’s, that’s the part that I think that, that should be the focus. Not that you did the thing that won’t benefit you, but that you had this opportunity to work on something that could have actually been beneficial and you didn’t, you know,

[00:19:55] Brett: [00:19:55] In fairness over my, over the succeeding. 48 [00:20:00] hours of sleepless nights, I did finish the freelance gig too.

[00:20:03] Christina: [00:20:03] Okay, well, that’s, that’s good. I mean, that’s, at least you finished that, but yeah. Yeah. Um, to complete non-sequitur work. Cause this is my add my ADHD as,

[00:20:16] Brett: [00:20:16] we’re here for. We’re all

[00:20:17] Christina: [00:20:17] I’m listening, as I’m listening to you and as you’re doing your talk about your projects, I’m now. Playing around with Homebrew for the first time in a while on my system.

[00:20:27] And they’ve updated it and they’ve changed the they’ve changed the commands significantly. And I don’t like it. I’m not a fan.

[00:20:36] Brett: [00:20:36] What are you talking about

[00:20:39] Christina: [00:20:39] So like, like brew, cask upgrade doesn’t work anymore. And I don’t know what the new command is to upgrade all of your outdated casks and brew cleanup doesn’t work anymore. It’s some new thing.

[00:20:52] And yeah, those are just the two changes that I’ve that I’ve

[00:20:56] Brett: [00:20:56] through dr. Runs through clean up now?

[00:20:59] Christina: [00:20:59] I [00:21:00] guess. So, uh,

[00:21:02] Brett: [00:21:02] In fact now, when I install in you formula, it runs cleanup at the end of it. Almost every time.

[00:21:09] Christina: [00:21:09] yeah, that, that, that it told me, but I’m looking through as I was calling brew CASCAP grid is deprecated use brew upgrade dash dash cask instead. Okay. Which, which sucks because it’s like, okay, well now it also brew cask. LISC is deprecated. And so I’m like, okay, well now I have to actually manually upgrade each cask.

[00:21:25] And so I’m like, okay, well tell me to tell me what I can do now to upgrade all of them. Um, and I, I I’m on this podcast with you. So what I’m trying to read the man page, but I’m not happy about this.

[00:21:35] Brett: [00:21:35] There is a script. Um, I’m trying to remember what it’s called, but it’s like an Uber updater and it will update. Not just brew, but it’ll update your makeover, uh, updates. It

[00:21:48] Christina: [00:21:48] yet? Is it Mac update? Updater

[00:21:50] Brett: [00:21:50] No, no, it has. It’s like an update, everything kind of name or something. Um,

[00:21:57] Christina: [00:21:57] yeah.

[00:21:57] Brett: [00:21:57] updates your NPM package. Is it [00:22:00] updates? Uh, I can’t remember what, all right now, everything that you would normally spend time updating all of your, your gems, your Ruby packages.

[00:22:10] Christina: [00:22:10] Okay. I need this because I’ve been using like, there’s a gooey app called mock-up data that I really, really like that actually does check, you know, Bruce stuff. It doesn’t check your Ruby gyms or your MPM packages. So I want to find this OmniUpdate or that you’re talking about. Um, And, but I, I do like, um, the mockup data, but I want to find this other thing, but now I’m, I’m just annoyed because this is one of those things that I like to run to make myself feel productive.

[00:22:37] And now the, the way I do things has changed and I’m not happy about it.

[00:22:42] Brett: [00:22:42] I, uh, I just searched my blog for update everything. Cause I felt like I had blogged about her at some point, but Mac updater was the first result for that. I blogged about back in 2019. I’ll find that script for you.

[00:22:55] Christina: [00:22:55] you’ll find it. Yeah. Uh, maca Bader guy is great. He actually added a it’s still [00:23:00] in development, but he actually added kind of a preliminary CLI tool for it specifically for me, which was pretty great.

[00:23:06] Brett: [00:23:06] Very nice. You’re so , yeah, that’s about to say something in a pro. I was just, you, you carry a lot of weight. People make you stuff.

[00:23:16] Christina: [00:23:16] I don’t think he had any idea who I was. I just like sent a tweet thing and he was like, that’s a pretty good idea. So

[00:23:22] um, so as you’ve been updating bunch, And, uh, also, um, what’s, what’s going on with, uh, with indie ultra.

[00:23:34] Brett: [00:23:34] So Fletcher schedule has been. Very like his personal life has gotten in the way of his development life and the way our code is set up, I’m very reliant on him to actually get things published. Um, but the thing I’m running into is a lot of people that are on the beta beta are MDL like longtime NBL users [00:24:00] and NB ultra is.

[00:24:03] Ostensibly a replacement for NBL. That was always the intention. Obviously that’s where the name came from. Um, and it is a perfect replacement for the way that I use. NBO it basically strips out all the stuff. I don’t use an NBO and improves this stuff I do use, but I’m realizing there are a lot of NVL fans that do things like click their mouse on stuff,

[00:24:31] Christina: [00:24:31] And you’re like, what? And you’re like, what’s a mouse.

[00:24:34] Brett: [00:24:34] I’m like you use the header columns in the list view to sort by why wouldn’t you use the keyboard shortcuts, um, and envy ultra like strips out as even more, uh, interface Chrome than NBL did at down to a point where you really have your, your list of notes with no previews and you have a full featured markdown editor, and there’s nothing else on your screen.

[00:25:00] [00:24:59] Um, which is what I wanted, but now I’m second guessing all of that people are people who expect it to be just like NBL give up on it right away. I’ve heard too many times about people that are like, I got on the beta. I tried it for five minutes. It wasn’t NVL. So I went

[00:25:23] Christina: [00:25:23] So I’m, I’m done. Totally, totally.

[00:25:26] Brett: [00:25:26] I don’t know what to do with those people.

[00:25:28] Christina: [00:25:28] Um, well I think that there are a couple of things you could do. From my perspective as somebody who kind of straddles the line between being those types of users and being your type of user. Uh, and, and also as somebody who I guess like now, like works directly with, you know, um, customers of widely used software, which is a different perspective than I’ve had before.

[00:25:53] Um, I think that. First you would, it would be useful to find out [00:26:00] are there, are there opportunities for them to be able to do what they did before? Like that, that’s my first question for you. Like can’t is there a way that if they played with the net, that where they could configure it and they could use it similar to the way they used some of those things before?

[00:26:12] Yes or no?

[00:26:14] Brett: [00:26:14] There there’s always the possibility. The first, first hurdle is that Fletcher and I have to agree that a feature should be added.

[00:26:24] Christina: [00:26:24] Okay. No, but the Buba going beyond that, meaning, meaning that a feature talking, not talking about like what features would need to be added. I’m saying that like right now, when somebody uses the app, are there certain things that they don’t know about that they could enable that would make it more similar to what it was like before?

[00:26:39] Brett: [00:26:39] Well, in some cases, uh, like. If you wanted to sort by date and you were used to clicking the list header to sort by date. Now it’s a keyboard shortcut because there’s no list header. Uh, when you want to, when you want to search, uh, people keep coming to me and saying, they’re used to clicking in the URL bar [00:27:00] and it, it would highlight, it would select all when you clicked in it.

[00:27:05] And ours doesn’t do that because we never even considered that people are going to use their mouse to get to the URL bar. Like that’s just command L and if people got used to command L they would find it was faster. Anyway. Um, so yeah, no, I basically, we, we removed a lot of the stuff that people seem to be looking for.

[00:27:26] Christina: [00:27:26] Okay, well, then that, that becomes a problem. Um, and I think that you and flusher are gonna have to figure out probably this is what you were talking about before, which is, are there things that you’d be willing to add back in. Um, or at the very least, um, allow an opportunity for people to access in a way similar to what they did before or not.

[00:27:46] And if the answer is no, then I do think that you probably need to be honest with those people and say, look, the way that you did things before is not going to work. And so if what you like before is, is what you want [00:28:00] to stick with, and this isn’t going to be for you. However, what might be useful would be to do with, um, You know, a series of blog posts, videos, or even like in-app sort of tutorials to show people where things have moved and how it works now.

[00:28:16] Um, so, so I think that that would, that would help a lot just to say, Hey, this is how it used to be done. This is what you do now, the other thing, and you know, I know that the name has already been kind of a contentious thing,

[00:28:33] Brett: [00:28:33] No. I know exactly what you’re going to say. And I agree.

[00:28:36] Christina: [00:28:36] Yeah, because the issue is, is that if you’re calling this envy, ultra and people are going to be making assumptions, that it’s going to be like the continuation of envy alt and it’s really not.

[00:28:45] It’s kind of a rebirth and kind of a reinvention. I don’t know if you, if you having the envy in the name.

[00:28:51] Brett: [00:28:51] I, I, I agree. Uh, it was, uh, We’ve talked about this. I know, but it was a, a point [00:29:00] of just giving up after going through huge mind maps, full of name ideas, and never being able to agree on anything. Uh, it just came down to envy. Ultra was a clever play on what was clearly going to be our LA our, our largest part of our initial customer base.

[00:29:20] Um, they would like, they would recognize it. They would find it. Hopefully clever, but yeah, you’re right. If I, if I don’t want people to make comparisons to envy all, then it was really stupid to call it MB, ultra.

[00:29:34]Christina: [00:29:34] Yeah. I mean, and look, you’re not unique in this. A lot of applications go through this and naming is hard, but a lot of applications go through this thing where they change things that you didn’t realize until you’ve gotten through the beta process, that people are really of faith. They use things the way that, you know, you use things, um, and, uh, they don’t use rather, they use things in a different way than how you use things and [00:30:00] that, that impacts your development.

[00:30:01] And so. It is worth looking at, especially now that you have feedback from you users, it is worth considering, is this just like a vocal minority of users or is this the vast majority of people who are using our product? And that will require a much harder conversations about what direction you want to take things in, because it’s very possible for you to be able to say, you know what, we’re willing to give up.

[00:30:24] Some of the older users maybe have a different name and we’re going to be going after a different user base because this is how we do things, but it also was worth considering. Okay. The people who we thought our users were and who they actually are, are different. And if we want to actually be able to sell this and market this and make this into something that is sustainable, then we need to make adjustments.

[00:30:45] Brett: [00:30:45] I think it’s going to be a combination of those two.

[00:30:48] Christina: [00:30:48] Yeah. I mean, I think so, too. Um, it’s interesting. Panic is, is sort of going through something similar with, um, uh, Nova, I mean, and, and they say this, [00:31:00] I haven’t heard them. Uh, uh, say that, but I’m in their beta. And I can just imagine that, you know, Nova is very, very different from Coda. And so I actually do think that them selling the name was smart to be totally honest, um, or, you know, selling the name to Coda.

[00:31:19] The web app was, was actually pretty smart. So I, um, But I imagine they’re going to get a lot of that too, from people once that hits general release next week, that a lot of people are going to be like, wait a minute. This is not the app that I thought it was, you know? Um, I don’t know. They, they have other challenges too.

[00:31:39] I will buy it. Um, I I’m, I’m proud of them for releasing it and I want to support them. I’m going to be totally honest. I don’t know if I’m actually going to use it. I’ve become such a visual studio

[00:31:49] Brett: [00:31:49] I was going to say, like, it’s, it’s hard to beat vs code for the kind of stuff you want to do.

[00:31:54] Christina: [00:31:54] It really is. It really is. And

[00:31:55] Brett: [00:31:55] can make it as shiny and pretty as you want to, but it’s gotta be that functional [00:32:00] to take over.

[00:32:01] Christina: [00:32:01] Well, that’s the issue. And, and especially, you know, when you’re, and, and that’s, that’s completely even separate from like the cost issue. Cause for me, I want to support my friends. I want to support ND software. I’m going to buy it whether I use it or not. Like that is not an issue for me. For some people it will be.

[00:32:18] I think the bigger thing though, is it’s like, if I’m going to make, if I’m going to switch my text editor, It needs to be significantly better. Like that’s why I was stuck with texts mate for so long. Is that there? It took me, frankly, until we as code and a couple of years of IES code for me to be like, okay, finally, this, this is better.

[00:32:37] And that was completely like, I never went to sublime. Like you went to sublime way, way, way back. And I was just, I was like, I never liked sublime. So I was just not going to bother, but

[00:32:49] Brett: [00:32:49] I’m still stuck on sublime. Like I, every time I use vs code, there’s something about it that delights me. Like there’s so many cool things about it, but I keep over configuring it [00:33:00] and then having to like erase my configuration and start from scratch. And then I. I tend to lose interest and go back to what I have very much working and sublime text.

[00:33:12] Um, it’s the S code is amazing. I’m not, I’m not, I can’t there’s I have no major complaints about it at all. Other than maybe it’s too configurable.

[00:33:22]Christina: [00:33:22] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do think it would be interesting, like, and this is well, what’s interesting. They come up with like various extension packs that kind of can turn it into various versions, you know, like there’s the Java, um, you know, extension pack. There’s one for

[00:33:34] Brett: [00:33:34] there’s a, there’s a sublime pack that like basically sets up your, uh, your key bindings and everything. So that it’s an easy transition.

[00:33:42] Christina: [00:33:42] That’s awesome. There there’s a Python like extension, which adds a lot of really good Python functionality they have now finally like enabled as part of the, the main version it’s still in preview, but they have finally enabled like a, a built in native setting sync. Which I think is really cool. And the extension that [00:34:00] would upload to adjust just before is awesome.

[00:34:02] But having it natively built in is, is cool, but what I’ve suggested to them and, and it’s, it’s, they’re, they’re looking at it. I don’t know if it’s going to go in this direction or not, but I would really love to be able to have distinct profiles that aren’t just about like work home, but also maybe different workspace type so that I could have different extensions, different set ups, maybe for different.

[00:34:23] Scenarios that I want, which I know kind of complaints with how their workspace thing works out. But sometimes you just want to, you know, have it synced across everything and, and have a different kind of way that it works. I don’t know. Um,

[00:34:38] Brett: [00:34:38] do that.

[00:34:40] Christina: [00:34:40] you can, but I would like to have it like tied in with, with the, the synchronized settings, um, rather than having to be like project based. Like, I would like to be able to basically open it up in a certain mode, if that makes sense. Like, I would like to be able to just launch, okay, I want this to be in, you know, markdown writing [00:35:00] mode, or I want this to be in like JavaScript mode, or I want this to be in some other sort of thing with certain number of configurations, uh, like extensions, you know, uh, theme, configurations, fonts, whatever.

[00:35:10] Um, That would be tied to something more than just like saying, okay, this is my work persona. This is my, you know, home machine, um, that kind of thing. So, um, but yeah, but it does kind of cross into some of the stuff that they already do. And the problem with that is it kind of, which is exactly what you said is that it does become then this whole issue of like, okay, this is too configurable.

[00:35:32] Right. Which is sort of a thing I’m trying to get around. I’m like, no, just give me like, like nicely preselected defaults, but.

[00:35:38] Brett: [00:35:38] Well, the thing I run into is eventually I have no idea what keystroke is causing what to happen. Like I have too many plugins enabled and I don’t know what’s conflicting with what and. No, why suddenly certain texts is being inserted when I typed certain characters. And, um, I think it’s cause I do too much too [00:36:00] fast.

[00:36:00] Christina: [00:36:00] Yeah, the, I run into that issue

[00:36:01] Brett: [00:36:01] plugin a day and got used to that plugin and fully understood that plugin before I installed another one, I probably be in better shape.

[00:36:10] Christina: [00:36:10] You would, and I run into the same exact problem that you do, where I do the same thing. Like I get super excited and then I’m like, what is even causing this issue? And then I’d have to disable them all and go through it again. And then I go through my own rabbit hole of spending all times time configuring my text editor and not actually doing the stuff that I needed to get done.

[00:36:28] So, yeah.

[00:36:29] Brett: [00:36:29] We got from bipolar disorder to text editors in three steps. That is, that is peak overtired right there.

[00:36:39] Christina: [00:36:39] Honestly, it really is. I was going to say, because our podcast is about three things. It’s about Taylor Swift, obviously it’s about the mental health and it’s about text editors,

[00:36:48] Brett: [00:36:48] Yeah. I mean, you could generalize that and say it’s about tech, but it really,

[00:36:53] Christina: [00:36:53] really tech

[00:36:54] Brett