Nobody Should Believe Me

In 2020, the Hartmans grow even more isolated as Covid hits: Sophie pulls C out of school citing worsening health and breaks with the church community who’ve been supporting her and her daughters. Concerns for abuse grow as Sophie begins to push a new narrative that C has central precocious puberty (CPP), a condition that causes the body to go through puberty prematurely, After making an initial DCF report in 2019 and tracking Sophie’s demands for increasingly invasive procedures: Seattle Children’s Child Abuse Team files an official report to the Department of Children, Youth, and Families. Her daughters are subsequently placed in protective custody and Sophie is charged with assault of a child in the second degree. We hear from the Seattle reporter who broke the story, Olivia LaVoice and dig into the extensive documentation from the investigation with Detective Michael Lee, a major crimes detective in Texas and co-founder of the National Crimes Against Children Investigators Association.. Andrea also talks with Dr. Mary Zupanc, a pediatric neurologist and epilepsy specialist with over 30 years of clinical and research experience with AHC. She gives listeners a better understanding of AHC by describing the history of the disorder, the various symptoms, common environmental triggers, and how clinical diagnoses of AHC are made. *** Links and Resources: More about Dr. Mary Zupanc: https://www.childneurologysociety.org/awards/mary-l-zupanc-md/ Check out Olivia LaVoice’s podcast, The Bakersfield Three: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/867-the-bakersfield-three-128074552/ Chad Goller-Sojourner’s Sitting in Circles with Rich White Girls: Memoir of a Bulimic Black Boy will be adding show dates in spring 2025. Click HERE for more information. Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Catch Andrea and Mike at their Seattle Book Launch Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/andrea-dunlop-and-mike-weber-the-mother-next-door-tickets-1097661478029 Learn more about our featured non-profit and mutual aid organizations: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/nsbm-supports/ Check out You Probably Think This Story's About You: https://brittaniard.com/podcast Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From corporate sponsorships to fundraisers large and small, Sophie Hartman was an expert at raising money for C’s various medical devices, mobility aids, and specialized treatments. But were any of these things actually needed? We hear audio from the police interviews of Sophie’s next door neighbors and a school aide who note that they rarely saw C in her wheelchair. We also take a closer look at C’s diagnoses with friend-of -the-show (our not-so-secret Florida doctor) Dr. Bex, joins us briefly to explain the process that pediatricians go through to provide a clinical diagnosis to their patients. We take a closer look at the narrative Sophie weaves on Instagram, documenting her daughter C’s medical journey on both her personal account and where she posts relentlessly about C’s health and includes pictures of her G-Tube and Cecostomy Tube. We listen to reports from both Sophie’s mother and father stating that C had no trouble eating by mouth, and we’re joined by Dr. Jill Glick, a Child Abuse Pediatrician from the University of Chicago, who explains why a child who can eat normally but still has a G-Tube, as requested by a parent, is incredibly troubling. *** Links and Resources: More about Dr. Jill Glick: https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/find-a-physician/physician/jill-c-glick Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Catch Andrea and Mike at their Seattle Book Launch Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/andrea-dunlop-and-mike-weber-the-mother-next-door-tickets-1097661478029 Learn more about our featured non-profit and mutual aid organizations: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/nsbm-supports/ Check out You Probably Think This Story's About You: https://brittaniard.com/podcast Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Immediately after moving with C and M from Zambia to Seattle, WA, Sophie starts bringing C to various doctors, reporting severe health issues. Just three days after C’s third birthday, she is diagnosed with Alternating Hemiplegia of Childhood (AHC), a rare, one-in-a-million neurological disorder. Simultaneously, Sophie enrolls her older daughter, M, in an elite gymnastics program. We speak to some of the moms who knew Sophie from the gym to get a better picture of Sophie and the two girls. They reveal a picture of a woman who, despite seeming to move from one crisis to the next, is somehow caring for a medically fragile child, nurturing an aspiring Olympian and financing all of this without a job or a partner. *** Links and Resources: Chad Goller-Sojourner’s Sitting in Circles with Rich White Girls: Memoir of a Bulimic Black Boy will be adding show dates in spring 2025. Click HERE for more information. Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Catch Andrea and Mike at their Seattle Book Launch Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/andrea-dunlop-and-mike-weber-the-mother-next-door-tickets-1097661478029 Learn more about our featured non-profit and mutual aid organizations: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/nsbm-supports/ Check out You Probably Think This Story's About You: https://brittaniard.com/podcast Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second episode of season 5, Andrea dives into how Sophie’s Evangelical Christian beliefs colored her worldview. From claiming that adopting a child from Zambia was God’s path for her life to allegedly performing an exorcism, Sophie’s faith is an integral part of this case. We hear from Dr. Lauren Turek, an Associate Professor of History at Trinity University in San Antonio, TX and author of To Bring the Good News to All Nations: Evangelical Influence on Human Rights and U.S. Foreign Relations, gives us a context about Evangelical Christianity in the US and abroad and helps us understand Sophie’s religious upbringing and worldview. Andrea is then joined by some of the Nobody Should Believe Me team: Senior Producer Myrriah Gossett and Lead Researcher/Producer Erin Ajayi to attempt to fill in the many blanks left by Sophie’s memoir about her time in Zambia. The three of them lay out a timeline leading up to Sophie’s adoptions of M and C, while at the same time examining the series of omissions and half-truths riddling Sophie’s story. *** Links and Resources: Learn more about Dr. Lauren Turek: https://laurenturek.com/ Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Catch Andrea and Mike at their Seattle Book Launch Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/andrea-dunlop-and-mike-weber-the-mother-next-door-tickets-1097661478029 Learn more about our featured non-profit and mutual aid organizations: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/nsbm-supports/ Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We begin the season by delving into Sophie Hartman’s 2016 memoir about her time in Zambia, Crowns of Beauty, where we learn about how a young woman from Michigan came to be the adopted mother of two Zambian girls by the age of 25. We learn about Sophie’s deep roots in evangelical Christianity and her state of mind prior to and during the adoptions of M and C; examining the way she portrays herself as both a martyr and savior. We’re also joined by Chad Goller-Sojourner, a performance artist and transracial adoption coach, to help listeners understand the complexities of transracial adoptions. *** Links and Resources: Chad Goller-Sojourner’s Sitting in Circles with Rich White Girls: Memoir of a Bulimic Black Boy will be adding show dates in spring 2025. Click HERE for more information. More information on Chad’s background with transracial adoption: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q76t_IpbJil2vWQVsNnw7f8Ms8p_lstK/view Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Catch Andrea and Mike at their Seattle Book Launch Event: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/andrea-dunlop-and-mike-weber-the-mother-next-door-tickets-1097661478029 Learn more about our featured non-profit and mutual aid organizations: https://www.nobodyshouldbelieveme.com/nsbm-supports/ Check out You Probably Think This Story's About You: https://brittaniard.com/podcast Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this last bonus episode before our season 5 premiere next week, we’re airing Andrea’s conversation with Dr. Catherine Ayoub, an associate professor at Harvard Medical School, APSAC member, nurse practitioner, and counseling and consulting psychologist. Cathy tells listeners about her background and first encounter with Munchausen by Proxy. She and Andrea chat about the different groupings of perpetrators and the characteristics/background that may signal that an abuser can be rehabilitated. Cathy dives into family dynamics, and her current study on the long-term effects of this abuse. *** Links and Resources: More about Dr. Cathy Ayoub: https://www.childrenshospital.org/directory/catherine-ayoub Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Season five of Nobody Should Believe Me tells the story of Sophie Hartman: a young, white midwestern evangelical missionary who travels to Zambia and comes home with two vulnerable sisters in her care. When she returns to the states, she lands far away from her family in Seattle, WA where she embarks on a medical odyssey with her younger daughter, C, reporting a variety of alarming symptoms: from chronic vomiting, to seizures, to days-long episodes of full-body paralysis. Eventually, C is diagnosed with a rare neurological disorder called Alternating Hemiplegia of Childhood. Sophie weaves a tale of a child who could “leave us anytime” and uses the child’s illness to fundraise tens of thousands of dollars for special equipment and medical expenses, takes C on a Make-A-Wish trip, posts constantly about her family’s plight on her prolific social media accounts, and even writes a memoir about the story of her journey to adopt her. But is Sophie really the heroic mother of a sick child, or is she the ultimate unreliable narrator? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the final part of our miniseries covering the Jesika Jones case, Andrea is once again joined by Detective Mike Weber, who shares the series of events from Jesika’s first bond violation through to her 60 year sentencing, from his perspective as law enforcement. He shares the differences in how seriously child abuse cases are taken when there’s a male vs female perpetrator, and the politics behind trying Medical Child Abuse cases in court. Andrea and Mike wrap up their conversation by talking about the systemic changes that need to happen, not only to protect kids from this abuse, but also to help families after the damage has been done. *** Links/Resources: Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to the 3rd installment of our 4-part series on the Jesika Jones case. In this episode, Andrea is wrapping up her conversation with Derek Jones. Derek recaps the fallout after Jesika’s lies finally start to unravel: the frustrating journey of working with the DA on the case, Jesika’s sentencing, and how his kids are doing today. Stay tuned for the final episode next week, where Andrea is once again joined by Detective Mike Weber. *** Links/Resources: Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second episode of Andrea’s coverage of the Jesika Jones case, she’s joined by Derek Jones, Jesika’s then-husband. Derek bravely tells the story of how he and Jesika met, their home life, and the decline in their daughter's health. Talking to Derek gives listeners insight into the manipulative nature of perpetrators, not only with their victims, but also with everyone around them, and the mental toll of coming to terms with such a monumental breach of trust. Stay tuned for part 2 of their conversation, coming next week. *** Links/Resources: Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week on case files, Andrea is joined by Detective Mike Weber, a crimes against children investigator and long-time friend/contributor to the show, to discuss the Jesika Jones case. Detective Mike is called onto this case in mid-2022 after Jesika brings her 4 year old daughter into Cook Children’s Hospital multiple times for an alleged seizure disorder. As the case evolves, Mike learns just how compulsive an offender who is allowed to walk can truly be. *** Links/Resources: Preorder Andrea and Mike’s new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

While the Nobody Should Believe Me team is hard at work on season 5, we’re revisiting the first episode of our third season, which covered the Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Children's trial, also known as the Take Care of Maya Case. Next week, we have a brand new miniseries coming to your ears, so stay tuned. *** As the Maya Kowalski case heads to trial, we dig into the massive trove of documents about this case and begin to unpack what we know about what really happened during Maya Kowalski’s fateful stay at Johns Hopkins All Childrens in October 2016. The Netflix documentary about the case—and the prevailing media narrative---would have you believe that Maya was ripped from her parents by a corrupt system, and that this could happen to any parent of a sick child. But did Maya really have a deadly disease for which she required the massive amounts of ketamine and other drugs she was being given? Was the hospital unfairly biased against Beata Kowalski because she was difficult, or was something more sinister at play? We talk to national law enforcement expert on medical child abuse, Detective Mike Weber, as well as a Florida pediatrician who helps us unravel some of the myriad strange details about Maya’s medical history. The beginning of our multi-part deep dive into the case reveals the shocking events that led up to the family separation. *** Links/Resources: Join Patreon for a look at Andrea and Dr. Bex’s previous coverage of the Kowalski case: https://www.patreon.com/collection/548199 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Andrea and Dr. Bex discuss mitochondrial disorders, which Dr. Bex has seen first-hand in her pediatric patients, and their connection to medical child abuse, most notably in the Justina Pelletier case. Like most illnesses seen in Munchausen by Proxy cases, while there are tests that doctors run, mitochondrial disorders present challenges in distinguishing genuine cases because of the array of symptoms they present. They discuss how support groups and websites–while so important for families dealing with complex chronic illnesses–can serve as playbooks for offenders. Andrea and Dr. Bex take listeners through the website for Mitoaction.org and its advice that appears to be directed squarely at perpetrators of medical child abuse. * * * Visit mitoaction.org Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the wake of this week's election results, Andrea shares a minisode with her thoughts on committing yourself to a fight that feels impossible. Want to suggest a non-profit for us to support? Drop us a line [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Bex joins Andrea for the final installment of our Justina Pelletier miniseries. They pick up by giving an overview of the court case, and the eerie similarities to the Kowalski case. They chat about the experts who were brought in by both the Pelletiers and Boston Children’s, and the importance of looking into the background of expert witnesses. Dr. Bex and Andrea break down the connection between somatoform disorder and prolonged Medical Child Abuse, and how it may affect the recovery of the victim once they are separated from their abuser. Bex and Andrea also catch listeners up on where Justina Pelletier is now and what the trajectory of her life and health has looked like since being returned to her parents. *** Links/Resources: The Battle for Justina Pelletier: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/the-battle-for-justina-pelletier/5657866397468499112 Join Patreon for a look at Andrea and Dr. Bex’s previous coverage of the Justina Pelletier case: https://www.patreon.com/collection/507935 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part 3 of our Justina Pelletier mini-series, Andrea and Beau pick up where part 2 left off, with the topic of mitoaction.org. They then get into the side story of Martin Gottesfeld, a hacker who did not know the family, but took on the mantle of saving Justina by hacking into the Boston Childrens’ system to pressure them into releasing her. Beau talks about the last time he was contacted by the Pelletiers, Lou Pelletier’s reaction to the media attention, and how Justina is doing currently. *** Links/Resources: https://www.mitoaction.org/ The Battle for Justina Pelletier: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/the-battle-for-justina-pelletier/5657866397468499112 Join Patreon for a look at Andrea and Dr. Bex’s previous coverage of the Justina Pelletier case: https://www.patreon.com/collection/507935 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this show we talk a lot about how Munchausen by Proxy cases are covered in the media, and today we’re getting the inside scoop from the reporter who broke one of the most high profile MBP stories. Beau Berman began covering the Justina Pelletier case back in 2013 as a young reporter and watched over the years as the case evolved and got stranger and stranger. He tells Andrea about how the story came across his desk and the complexities of trying to keep the balance on both sides while dealing with HIPAA. He reflects on his time with the Pelletiers and his thoughts on the case more than a decade after covering it. *** Links/Resources: The Battle for Justina Pelletier: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/the-battle-for-justina-pelletier/5657866397468499112 Read about Justina Pelleiter in The Boston Globe: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2020/01/12/pelletier/0I2dQrYlZFJ9tNzscaXdAO/story.html Join Patreon for a look at Andrea and Dr. Bex’s previous coverage of the Justina Pelletier case: https://www.patreon.com/collection/507935 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Case Files is back with the first episode of a multi-part series on the Justina Pelletier case. Andrea and Dr. Bex covered this case in the subscriber feed, but, due to popular demand, decided to bring it to the main podcast. Justina Pelletier was a 14-year-old girl whose hospitalization at Boston Children's Hospital sparked a significant legal and media frenzy. Andrea and Dr. Bex’s discussion covers the medical background of Justina's condition, including mitochondrial disease and somatoform disorder, the treatment plans proposed by the hospital, and the escalating conflict between her family and medical professionals. *** Links/Resources: The Battle for Justina Pelletier: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/the-battle-for-justina-pelletier/5657866397468499112 Read about Justina Pelletier in The Boston Globe: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2020/01/12/pelletier/0I2dQrYlZFJ9tNzscaXdAO/story.html Join Patreon for a look at Andrea and Dr. Bex’s previous coverage of the Justina Pelletier case: https://www.patreon.com/collection/507935 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the first episode of Case Files, our new series for episodes between seasons! Andrea, either solo or joined by guests, will be taking listeners through additional Munchausen by Proxy cases, updates on previously covered cases, and the broader societal impact of this form of child abuse. In this conversation, Andrea and Dr. Bex (our secret Florida doctor friend from season 3) delve into the growing popularity of ketamine usage and the public perception of the role that it played in the Take Care of Maya case compared to the death of Friends actor Matthew Perry. After giving a quick overview of the Kowalski v Johns Hopkins trial and an update on the appeal, they discuss how ketamine was used in Maya Kowalski’s treatment vs the current medical standard. Andrea and Dr. Bex then go on to recap and draw parallels to what happened to Matthew Perry. * * * Links/Resources: Join as a free Patreon member to listen to our interview with Ethen Shapiro about the appeal in Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Children’s: https://www.patreon.com/posts/kowalski-case-to-110897045 Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive ethical true crime bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this very special crossover episode with our friends at The Dating Detectives, Andrea joins private eye Mackenzie Fultz and comedian Hannah Anderson as they delve into a case of medical mystery and romantic deception. Mila joins us to tell her harrowing story about how her girlfriend’s tragic battle with brain cancer turned out to be something far more sinister. *** Check out The Dating Detectives! Follow The Dating Detectives on instagram. Follow Hanna and Mackenzie on instagram. Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Andrea Dunlop interviews Madison McGhee, host of the Ice Cold Case podcast, about her personal journey investigating her father's unsolved murder in 2002. They discuss the emotional complexity of the investigation, the challenges of maintaining objectivity, and the broader implications of failings in the justice system. Madison shares insights into how her podcast developed, her experiences with family backlash, and her determination to find answers. * * * Listen to Ice Cold Case. Follow Madison on Instagram. Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Season 3 mailbag episode! Andrea is joined by Dr. Bex (aka Secret Florida Doctor Friend), to sort through all the commentary and listener feedback from Season 3. They tackle the good, the bad, and the just plain weird from the comments, and answer burning questions about the Kowalski case. We hear what it was like to cover this case in real time and to go on the road to meet some of the key players. Come down the rabbit hole with us! * * * Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week Andrea is joined by Kathleen Strader, the National Director for Healthy Families America, the signature home visiting program of Prevent Child Abuse America. Following the Take Care of Maya film and media coverage of so-called "medical kidnapping" and misleading coverage of child abuse, we move the conversation to solutions: what can we do to prevent child abuse? We delve into Kathleen's background dealing with child abuse cases and her work supporting families through home visiting programs. Their conversation touches on the complexities of child abuse, systemic issues, and the importance of supportive measures and interventions that meet families where they are. As we wrap up our coverage of the landmark Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Childrens case, we issue a hopeful message of how we can alleviate one of society's most challenging problems. * * * Check out Prevent Child Abuse America. Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week Andrea is joined by Dr. Marc Feldman as she dives into the complexities and controversies surrounding medical child abuse and the developing story in Lehigh, PA about "overdiagnosis". They delve into the media’s role in shaping perceptions and the potential for a moral panic about doctors "falsely accusing" parents of child abuse. Andrea and Dr. Feldman address the challenges in protecting children, critiques of the healthcare and legal systems, and the broader social and political movement emerging from these cases. * * * Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join Andrea as she delves back into the ongoing legal battle of Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins All Children's Hospital, with Ethen Shapiro, the lead defense attorney for Johns Hopkins All Children's. They discuss the grounds for a retrial based on allegations of juror misconduct and the potential chilling effect on mandatory reporters following the substantial amount of money awarded to the Kowalski family by the jury. We also look at the the broader societal impacts on mandatory reporting and the protecting vulnerable children from abuse. * * * Get up to speed on the Kowalski case with our Kowalski Catch-Up Playlist on Spotify Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week's episode delves into the intricate details surrounding Beata Kowalski's death, which was central to the Kowalski's lawsuit against Johns Hopkins All Children's, as well as the documentary 'Take Care of Maya'. In court, Beata's death was presented as an act of maternal sacrifice and heroism. Through interviews and court deposition excerpts, we'll explore the odd circumstances leading up to and immediately after Beata's death that suggest a far more complex story might lie beneath the surface. * * * Get up to speed on the Kowalski case with our Kowalski Catch-Up Playlist on Spotify Preorder Andrea's new book The Mother Next Door: Medicine, Deception, and Munchausen by Proxy. Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we prepare to launch Season Four next month, we’re revisiting the subject of Season Three—the landmark Kowalski v. Johns Hopkins All Children’s verdict, in which a jury awarded Jack Kowalski more than $200 million dollars in damages following the suicide of his wife Beata while their daughter Maya Kowalski was in state custody because a medical child abuse investigation. Though the media has been largely sympathetic to Kowalski’s case—thanks in large part to the popular Netflix film “Take Care of Maya”—our exploration continues to reveal that nothing about this story is what is seems. With the case headed towards appeal, we take a closer look at newly released information about what was going on with the Kowalski family, as well as how this verdict is affecting mandatory reporting and the safety of children in pediatric hospitals all around the country. * * * Get up to speed on the Kowalski case with our Kowalski Catch-Up Playlist on Spotify Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Subscribe on YouTube where we have full episodes and lots of bonus content. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this week's episode, Andrea is joined by Roberta Blevins, creator and host of the Life After MLM podcast, and Terra Newell, who was featured in mega-hit Dirty John podcast and has since created and hosts Terra's Baddy Club. The audience gets to listen in as these three women talk about about the pros and cons of having a personal connection to the topics of their podcasts, how that affects their coverage of the topic, and the intersection between Munchausen by proxy, MLMs, and domestic violence. *Special thanks for Spotify, who provided recording support for this episode! * * * Listen to Life After MLM. Follow Roberta on Instagram. Listen to Dirty John. Listen to Terra's Baddy Club. Follow Terra on Instagram. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen to an episode we're releasing from our subscriber vault -- Andrea's full conversation with Hope Ybarra, whose story we've been revisiting in our look back at season one of the show. This conversation gives listeners a peek into the mind of a perpetrator and inspired the name of the show "Nobody Should Believe Me". * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the final episode of our look back at season one, Andrea reflects on her experience interviewing Hope Ybarra, how it impacted her in regards to her sister, and audience reactions to the conversation. * * * Andrea has made an intense connection with Hope Ybarra's family, and asked experts, doctors, and the detective so many of her burning questions about Munchausen by Proxy. But she's become increasingly fixated on talking to Hope herself as she comes to realize that it may be her only chance to get the insights she needs. In this stunning season one finale, Andrea travels to Mountain Home, Idaho, to meet with Hope Ybarra. In this intense, emotional back-and-forth, we hear straight from Hope what life is like for her after being released from prison. We find out what she's up to and what she hopes for from the future. Hope listens to her own family—all of whom she's estranged from with the exception of Robin—talk about what she was like before everything fell apart. She insists that she still loves her children, despite what she did. We see the human being behind the monstrous acts that splashed Hope's story across headlines and landed her in prison for a decade. Andrea asks Hope what might have been done to help her and what she might say to her younger self if she could go back. Finally, she tells Hope that if she really wants her family back, she should get treatment and offers to help her if she wants that. Hope is friendly and warm in person, but Andrea is left with the unsettling truth that she hasn't changed. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

After a look back at season 1 episode 7, Can They Be Saved?, Andrea reflects on how her thoughts regarding the psychopathology of Munchausen by Proxy has evolved over the years, as she has spoken to experts, survivors, and perpetrators of this abuse. * * * Andrea delves deep into her questions around the psychopathology of Munchausen by Proxy perpetrators. Floored by the similarities in the many cases she’s researched, she talks to two of the world's foremost experts on the disorder—Dr. Marc Feldman and Dr. Mary Sanders—about the characteristics, warning signs, and causes of the disorder that has upended the lives of so many people Andrea has spoken to throughout the course of the podcast. Why would a mother ever do this? What do they get from it? And most importantly, what could be done to stop them? Is it possible for someone who does these things to get treatment? * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

During this look back at the 6th episode of our first season, we hear the story of twin sisters who survived Munchausen by Proxy at the hands of their foster mother. At the end of the episode, we get a visit from very special guest, Erica Blake (then Handt), one of the sisters we interviewed almost 3 years ago. Andrea reconnects with her to chat about life since that interview. *** As Andrea contemplates what the future looks like for survivors of Munchausen by Proxy, she gets an unexpected message from two young women who’ve lived it. After appearing with Marc Feldman on a podcast, Andrea hears from twin-sisters who survived MBP. Liz and Erica Handt were taken from one terrifying situation to another when the foster mom who adopted them turns out to be abusive, telling the girls they had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and dragging them from specialist to specialist. The twins' story is harrowing but ultimately hopeful as they're now thriving. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the 5th episode of our look back at season one of the show. We revisit Andrea's conversation with two more dads who were a part of Munchausen by Proxy cases. At the end of the episode, Andrea gives a brief update on one of the dads and shares her thoughts on how gender roles play into these cases and why such a high percentage of offenders are women. *** As we learn from Detective Mike Weber, the father in a Munchausen by Proxy case can be the most important ally--or the biggest obstacle--in protecting child victims from abuse. In part two of Andrea’s examination of the father’s role in MBP cases, Andrea speaks to “John”, a father devastated but the revelation that his ex-wife had subjected their son to unnecessary brain surgery. We also talk to Ryan Crawford, a man who found himself fighting for his son’s life against a disbelieving system. Plus we get a stunning real-time update on one of our cases as “John” decides to come forward with his true identity. You can listen to the follow-up interview with him here. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com More about Ryan Crawford's story: https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2019/august/the-boy-who-stayed-sick/ * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Andrea connects with Dr. Jessica Pryce, an expert on the frontlines of child wellfare work, research, and reform. She talks to Andrea about her book, Broken: Transforming Child Protective Services, the child welfare system as a whole, and how her work applies to the needs of children and families affected by Munchausen by Proxy. * * * Learn more about Dr. Jessica Pryce here. Purchase Broken: Transforming Child Protective Services here. Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

During this re-aired episode, we revisit our conversation with 2 fathers affected by Munchausen by Proxy. At the end of the episode, we reconnect with George Hunnicut to discuss how life has been for him and his children after speaking to us on the show two years ago. *** As we learn from Detective Mike Weber, the father in a Munchausen by Proxy case can be the most important ally--or the biggest obstacle--in protecting child victims from abuse. We learn more about how Andrea’s own family became divided during the first investigation into her sister and we meet George Hunnicut, a veteran who discovered his young wife was abusing their infant son and found himself up against a system that had no idea what to do for him. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We take a look back at the third episode of the show. At the end of the episode, we catch up with Detective Mike Weber, friend of the show and expert in the investigation of Medical Child Abuse. *** Andrea speaks to Deanna Boyd, the crime reporter who broke the Hope Ybarra case and discovers that Hope's was one of many Munchausen By Proxy cases in Tarrant County that Deanna unearthed; all of which had flown under the radar. What's going on here? Why are there so many cases in this one area? As Andrea interviews Deanna and meets with Detective Mike Weber, as well as Dr. Jayme Coffman and Dr. Karen Shultz--two doctors involved with the Ybarra and many other MBP cases--she makes a chilling discovery. It's not that there are so many cases in Tarrant County, it's just that they're catching them. If the systems meant to protect children were functioning, every county would look like Tarrant. Andrea can only guess as to what truly went on behind the scenes in her own family's case, but she begins to grasp what the systems involved--CPS, the police, the doctors--are up against and why so many cases are destined to fail. Meanwhile, Andrea continues her maddening back-and-forth with Hope. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andredunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We take a look back at the second episode of the show. Stay tuned to hear Andrea share the story of how the show almost didn't air and what she learned from it. To learn more details about Andrea's sister's case, check out "Megan". *** We delve deeper into the story of Hope Ybarra, a young mother whose family discovers she’s been faking her eight-year-long battle with terminal cancer and begins to suspect her own health isn’t all she’s lying about. We talk more to Hope’s family and her ex-husband Fabian Ybarra about their efforts to unravel Hope’s many sinister deceptions. We meet Detective Mike Weber, who was responsible for investigating Hope Ybarra, an early foray into what would become the main focus of his career: Munchausen by Proxy. * * * Follow Andrea on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea's books here. To support the show, go to Patreon.com/NobodyShouldBelieveMe or subscribe on Apple Podcasts where you can get all episodes early and ad-free and access exclusive bonus content. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s MBP Practice Guidelines can be downloaded here. To learn more about Dr. Marc Feldman, visit Munchausen.com * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're going back to the beginning with an extended version of our very first episode! Be sure to stay tuned until the end for a special postscript with Andrea as she gives a behind-the-scenes look at how this show began. *** We meet accomplished novelist and loving mother Andrea Dunlop as she embarks on a journey to understand the series of events that tore her family apart. We learn that her older sister has been investigated twice for Munchausen by Proxy abuse, which inspired Andrea to learn everything she could about this complex and misunderstood issue. We see Andrea become captivated by the story of Hope Ybarra and go along with her to meet Hope’s father, sister, and brother: the first people Andrea has ever spoken to who’ve actually lived through a case. But can anything prepare Andrea for the truth? Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this bonus episode you’ll hear host Andrea Dunlop's full interview with Dr. Sally Smith’s son, Patrick. They discuss the impact of the slanted and sensationalized media coverage of Dr. Sally Smith’s work on him and his family. Patrick shares his pride in his mother's career as well as fears over the impact of the media coverage and the verdict in the Kowalski case. The full unbridged interview with Dr. Sally Smith will be available to subscribers. In the meantime, we are hard at work on season 4, stay tuned and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this bonus episode you’ll hear host Andrea Dunlop's full interview with Ethen Shapiro, lead attorney for John Hopkins All Childrens Hospital. Shapiro offers shocking insights into the trial and the media coverage of the Kowalski case, as well as what’s next for the defense team. We are hard at work on season 4, stay tuned and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this bonus episode you’ll hear host Andrea Dunlop's full interview with friend of the show Detective Mike Weber. Mike—who wrote the FBI guidelines on investigating medical child abuse—digs into the police report about Maya Kowalski and helps Andrea put it in context, revealing the serious and disturbing nature of the case. NOTE: We recorded this interview in September before the Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Childrens trial, so information revealed during the trial will not be reflected. *** More about Mike Weber: https://mikeweberconsulting.com/ Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the third and final installment of our exclusive interview with Dr. Sally Smith, she shares her side of what happened in the Maya Kowalski case, revealing how perilous Maya’s situation truly was when she originally arrived at Johns Hopkins All Childrens in October of 2016. Dr. Sally Smith also reveals, for the first time, the details of the multi-million-dollar settlement with the Kowalski family and shares the impact that this case could have on medical providers and abused children going forward. And finally Dr. Sally Smith disclosess her concerns and her hopes for Maya and Kyle Kowalski—the two children thrust into the national spotlight by their father’s lawsuit—and lastly, her reflections on the work she’s devoted her life to. *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second part of our exclusive interview with Dr. Sally Smith, we discuss how the media coverage of her reached a fever pitch and turned her life and career upside down. We explore how not only the Netflix film but a high-profile piece in New York Magazine rewrote the narrative of the Kowalski case and Dr. Smith’s involvement to cast her as a villain. We unpack the stories of the four other families in the Netflix film—featured as examples of “false allegations” made by Dr. Smith—and uncover the more complicated truth about what happened to the children involved. We hear from Dr. Smith about how the media has stoked outrage and real-life threats and harassment against her, her coworkers, and her family. We see the horrifying truth that what happened to Dr. Sally Smith could happen to any doctor in her position; looking at how the conspiracy theory of “medical kidnapping” is being constructed and affirmed by media on both sides of the political spectrum. *** Read Dyan Neary's New York Magazine piece here: https://www.thecut.com/article/child-abuse-munchausen-syndrome-by-proxy.html Watch the full video of John Stewart here: https://www.tiktok.com/@blind_gossip/video/7295142757612588334?_r=1&_t=8gwrdSfC298 Records of the four families covered in the film here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FpSFjvX_8WB5cgPCI0E_cpXj1jaeVcC4?usp=sharing Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In an exclusive interview with Dr. Sally Smith, host Andrea Dunlop travels to Florida to speak to the embattled child abuse pediatrician about her life and work and the Maya Kowalski case that saw her cast as the villain of a Netflix film. We get an inside look into Dr. Smith’s groundbreaking career as one of America's first board-certified child abuse pediatricians. We learn what it was like to face some of the most difficult cases imaginable all while raising two children of her own. And we see how the toughness necessary for her work led her to be ruthlessly judged in the public eye. This must-listen first installment of our season finale sets the stage for explosive revelations about the Kowalski case, the four other “falsely accused” families in the Netflix film, and much more. *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. * * * Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week Andrea examines how the harrowing and complex story of the Maya Kowalski case turned into a pop culture moment, and spread dangerous misinformation in the process. We continue our conversation with Ethen Shapiro, lead attorney for Johns Hopkins All Childrens, about how the media coverage of this case got so out of hand and the risks it poses to doctors and children going forward. We take a deeper look at how entertainment reporter Caitlin Keating stumbled onto the story at her job at People Magazine, and despite her questionable grasp of medical child abuse issues, made a movie about a complicated case that was subsequently viewed by millions of people. Andrea shares revelations from Beata Kowalski's blog, written disturbingly in her young daughter Maya's voice, and wonders how anyone can ignore its terrifying contents. Stay tuned for a sneak peek of our exclusive interview featured in our season finale. *** Read Beata’s blog: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FpSFjvX_8WB5cgPCI0E_cpXj1jaeVcC4?usp=drive_link Megan Fox YouTube interview with Gregory Anderson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22eytc7v8oc&t=9693s Kat and Nat Unfiltered: https://catandnat.ca/new-blog/hhttps/openspotifycom/take-care-of-maya-with-caitlin-keating Guys We Fucked podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlbosK25e7U Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just when we thought the endless saga of Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Childrens was over...it turns out it might only be beginning. In this episode, lead attorney for the Johns Hopkins All Childrens defense team, Ethen Shapiro, offers an insider's perspective on what happened in during the trial and what’s happened in the wake of it. Tina and Andrea discuss newly introduced evidence including Beata's requests to increase medications despite risks, Dr. Kirkpatrick's questionable diagnostic process, and communications illuminating Beata's substantial role in daughter Maya's care. Shapiro unpacks how harmful the verdict is for healthcare providers now unsure about reporting potential abuse and explains why the media coverage of this case and others like it is asymmetrical warfare. We discuss the motion for a new trial based on juror misconduct, what happens next, and what it all means. *** Read Beata's emails and view Ethen Shapiro's slide deck laying out the case: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FpSFjvX_8WB5cgPCI0E_cpXj1jaeVcC4?usp=sharing Watch Ethen Shapiro's closing arguments on Law & Crime's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HBYKAN3BxM Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! *** Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With the jury's stunning $242 million verdict in favor of the Kowalski family, host Andrea Dunlop looks at why this case has struck such a nerve on both sides of the political spectrum. She examines why some mothers accused of medical child abuse are viewed as monsters and others as martyrs. Andrea looks at the charges against social worker Cathy Bedy the woman who became the face of the child welfare bureaucracy during the Maya Kowalski case and examines her testimony. We also seek out answers about the troubled state of child welfare in America by talking to Dr. Jessica Pryce, author of the forthcoming book Broken: Transforming Child Protective Services—Notes of a Former Caseworker. Dr. Pryce shares heart-wrenching stories of mothers whose lives have been turned upside down by investigations and sets out a compelling and urgent case for an overhaul of CPS. With her inside view of the system, she also gives insight on how doctors and other mandated reporters can do the best for the families they want to help even within the current, deeply flawed system. This episode grapples with the complexity around reporting child abuse suspicions and the potentially chilling ripple effects of the explosive verdict in Kowalski v Johns Hopkins All Childrens. It examines the lack of support for struggling parents in America, while leaving the listener with urgent questions about justice and equity. *** Pre-order Dr. Jessica Pryce’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/Broken-Transforming-Protective-Services_Notes-Caseworker/dp/0063036193 Learn more about Dr. Pryce’s work on her website: https://jessicaprycephd.com/ Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munchausensupport.com If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As we continue to process the far-reaching implications of the shocking verdict in the Kowalski case, we take a closer look at Maya Kowalski’s testimony and what we know about her. She’s emerged as a divisive figure in the case: alternately being cast as a brave heroine or as a manipulator. But given the evidence of her possible abuse and the questionable motives of the adults surrounding her, the truth is far more nuanced. We bring in survivor Jordyn Hope and child and adolescent psychiatrist Dr. Mary Sanders to help unpack the impact of trauma on memory and the aftereffects of medical child abuse. As Maya continues to be thrust into the spotlight for a role she didn’t choose, we grapple with the outcome of what it could all mean for her. *** Munchausen Support accepts donations and volunteers at www.munhausensupport.com If you have a story about medical child abuse that you are ready to share you can tag @andreadunlop, email [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at (484) 768-0266 Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Andrea checks in with lawyer and trial consultant Jonathan Leach hours after the Kowalski verdict comes down. They talk about the judge’s decision to disallow testimony from the defense on medical child abuse, what happened with this jury, and the chances for a possible appeal for JHAC. With the medical community reeling from this news, Jonathan and Andrea unpack the dire consequences of the verdict and wonder — what now? *** Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Andrea and special guest Bex (aka our Florida pediatrcian friend) process the shocking verdict in the Maya Kowalski trial. After 9 weeks of testimony, the jury awarded the Kowalski family nearly $300 million in damages from Johns Hopkins All Children's Hospital. Bex shares her perspective as a pediatrician on how this verdict will impact the medical community and reporting of suspected child abuse cases. They discuss the implications for social workers and hospital staff who stood up and testified, and grapple with how the jury seemed to side with the emotional storytelling despite medical evidence. Andrea and Bex reflect on what this means for the U.S. justice system, mandatory reporting laws, and the public's willingness to accept that medical child abuse exists. *** Follow host Andrea Dunlop on Instagram for behind-the-scenes photos: @andreadunlop Buy Andrea’s books here. For more information and resources on Munchausen by Proxy, please visit MunchausenSupport.com Note: This episode contains sensitive content related to child abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Download the APSAC's practice guidelines here. *** Click here to view our sponsors. Remember that using our codes helps advertisers know you’re listening and helps us keep making the show! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices