JC Cassis on friendship in adulthood etc.

You can find JC Cassis at jccassis.com, and can check out her own podcast, Risk.

We cover a bunch of topics, including friendship in adulthood, what we owe each other, and a little about parenting.

Divia (00:01.721)

Hey, so I'm here today with my friend, JC. And I like to say that we went to school together and if people are like, like you mean like what? And I'm like, no, all the school we went to school together, starting in kindergarten through senior year of high school. And then we also went to college together. Yeah, it's yeah. Though, as we sometimes say, you were in the other class in kindergarten. really more like 16.

JC (00:02.589)

Hey.

JC (00:20.116)

17 years of nonstop togetherness.

JC (00:27.356)

Right, so it's, right. And then you were in a different dorm at Harvard and, you know, different friend group and all that. you know, yeah, yeah. It certainly wasn't, it wasn't overkill and it also wasn't nothing, you know?

Divia (00:33.216)

But we did hang out!

Divia (00:38.83)

Yeah, totally. And, you know, and we've kept in touch since then. I, you know, I wish I talked to you more ultimately, but, but I would say like at least, I don't know, like at least most years I think we check in. She seems like a.

JC (00:45.106)

Yeah, me too.

JC (00:51.836)

Yeah, and I think we totally could more and we probably just should do that. I don't think you're hard to reach at all, but I think it's just living in different cities and all that kind of stuff.

Divia (00:57.377)

Yeah, yeah that seems right.

Divia (01:03.659)

Yeah, totally. And, and JC also has a podcast. Do want to tell people a little about that?

JC (01:07.252)

Sure, yeah, so for the last 13 and a half years, which I cannot believe how long it's been, I've been working on the podcast called Risk, which is where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. No.

Divia (01:17.857)

Nice. Yeah. And so we were just texting the other day and I'm still sort of like restarting up with this podcast. Everybody took a pretty long break and trying to figure out what I'm doing. But one thing I know I want is just to like actually have conversations with people. And so I was like, yeah, let's, let's get on and, catch up and talk about stuff. I don't know, share our different perspectives. So JC, welcome to the podcast.

JC (01:39.72)

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I think it's funny. You know, it's funny, I was talking to my brother the other day and he was saying that he remembered having a conversation with you when we were kids and you came over to my house and he was like, why are you friends with her about me? And you were like very diplomatic, classic Divya, you know, like he did his great impression of you. I forget exactly what the wording was, but it was just something like, you know, well, you know, I think we have good chemistry and I like to talk to her and we have a nice time together. So like, I'm friends with her, you know? And he was just like.

I just thought that was hilarious.

Divia (02:09.017)

Yeah, siblings, siblings are really, I don't know, it's funny with sibling relationships. I hope your brother's doing well.

JC (02:17.51)

Yeah. Yeah, he is, you know, and he fondly remembers you, you know, so that's nice. But he could not believe that you have five kids. His head almost exploded when I said that. So I know I told him that. Yes, you have not wavered on this. I told him I was like, well, her dream was always three kids and then she had three kids and she wanted two more. So like she's doing what makes her happy. Like, you know, it's never it's never wavered, you know, but his head exploded.

Divia (02:22.573)

Yeah, it's mutual, totally.

Divia (02:30.751)

but I always wanted a bunch of kids. I feel like this has been consistent,

Divia (02:45.229)

You know, actually, so a little bit of it, you say that, I think that's almost right. I definitely said three kids, but this is, and I think we're gonna come back to this topic more than once, but like what I thought was normal growing up in New York, going to like a private girl's school with you like we did, and then what, you know, later I got older and I saw some more things. so I just, it sort of didn't occur to me, I think that anyone could have more than three kids.

JC (03:08.928)

that's hilarious.

Divia (03:09.997)

Because like, who did we really, I'm like, I don't know. I feel like I barely knew anyone who did. I was like, three kids is a big family. There was one Christian homeschool group at the music school I went to that had five kids, but I think that was maybe it for what I knew, which seems, I don't know, it seems sort of weird to reflect on that. And, okay, so then here's the other part of that.

JC (03:15.751)

Yeah.

Divia (03:30.169)

The next next week, assuming you know nothing goes wrong and I get everything recorded promptly etc. The podcast guest will be Michael Vassar whom I believe I introduced you to at one point. Yeah and I think you guys talked about like the New York City Council and stuff.

JC (03:40.039)

Who that is? Some Russian, this guy?

JC (03:46.46)

God, my God. Talk about why are you friends with her? my God, I thought he hated me with that conversation. And then you were like, he loved you. And I'm like, perhaps he could have made that a little bit more like apparent.

Divia (03:48.801)

Yeah, yeah, so, I didn't...

Divia (03:54.698)

No, no, no, yeah, not at all.

Divia (03:59.789)

me.

So yeah, my recollection of that was I was like, no, he thought you were smart. He just was expecting you to push back. He sort of doesn't know how to like communicate if the person isn't pushing back and like asking for details and like arguing with him more. And you were like, well, yeah, it's true. I didn't do that. so anyway, no, he, I talked to him at a certain point and I'm going to get into this when he comes out of the podcast, I think at least a little, or at least mention it, but like, it was some conversation with him where I was like, yeah, I guess I could, I guess I could have even more kids if I wanted to.

JC (04:15.198)

How funny! That's hilarious.

JC (04:33.005)

after three, not after five, right? Yeah.

Divia (04:33.177)

And so then I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, after three. And I was like, maybe I could have five kids. And that was before I had any kids, but I was like, maybe I could have five kids actually. Cause I'm like, I was sort of like, have like a book at the time I was probably like, I don't know, 25 or something. And I was like calculating and like, I haven't met someone yet, but if I do, and then how many years? And so anyway, that was kind of where I got that one into my head and probably no, well, just if it had been super easy, I might've had even more, but it wasn't.

JC (04:39.494)

Wow.

JC (04:52.558)

Wow, that's funny. Yeah, it's funny. It's like, go ahead.

Divia (05:00.417)

So I really did want kids, but it is a lot of work, so that's why we're done now.

JC (05:00.596)

Right, right, Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think about like, you know, whatever the 1890s were like tons of people were having like 12 kids, 15 kids, 17 kids. And it kind of makes you wonder like, if it's so much harder now, I guess it's that we're doing a lot older and it's also much more expensive and whatever, but it's like, what the hell were they doing that we're not doing? Where it's like, my God, one pregnancy almost killed me, you know, like.

Divia (05:17.879)

I don't...

Divia (05:22.903)

So, so my contrarian take on this is I think it was harder for them. I think they had kids anyway. I don't think it was because it was easier.

JC (05:33.14)

But like just the idea, I don't know, it's like I wonder if the kind of, I don't know, it's not like fertility or just like baby delivering ability of women is the same today as it was then in terms of like, could the same per capita number of women have 12 children today as they could back then? And I suppose if they all started at 16, sure, but nobody wants to do that and nobody should.

Divia (05:45.785)

Right.

Divia (05:50.562)

Yeah, maybe.

Divia (05:55.981)

Yeah, I think that's some of it. And obviously, like, people did have... I think infertility is a lot more common now. I think it's one of those many, like, people have theories, but like lot of modern health problems, people are like, I don't know, like, modern health problems. Maybe. Right. Something like that. Totally.

JC (06:05.948)

Yeah. Yeah. Microplastics and chemicals and poison food and depression and, you know, all these terrible things we're dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. It's like we have more freedom, but we're less happy. And back then it's like, I don't think people were necessarily more happy back then, but it's like, you just had to do what you had to do. And you weren't thinking like, but I want to be a lawyer. It's like, I mean, some, some women were, but I feel like most women were like, this is my fate. It sucks, but it is what it is. I don't have another option, you know?

Divia (06:27.767)

Right, right.

Divia (06:36.033)

Yeah, this guy that I some, I think it's David Chapman. He talks about like the choiceless mode where like now, I don't know, we sort of, did modernism, we did postmodernism. And so they're obviously like trad people or whatever, but it's never really the same when you know that like, you could just go live in modern society and have a choice if you want. Like maybe for the Amish or something where you're like, I guess I could, but I was raised this, like everyone I know is ever whatever. But for like most people that were raised in like a

JC (06:41.949)

Mmm.

JC (06:54.792)

Mm

Divia (07:02.861)

basically modern context. There's there's no going back. You know you have choices.

JC (07:06.694)

Right, right. Well, I like choices. I'm glad we have them for sure, you know.

Divia (07:09.783)

No, but yeah, absolutely. But people, so yeah, I also am very pro -choice in the broad sense of the word, but I do hear people like on Twitter and stuff and like complaining pretty often, like they wish they had less choices, which I don't personally identify with, but I think that's out there as like a political take.

JC (07:27.316)

Yeah, I mean, that's something I struggle with constantly is like, there's a million things I want to do, and there's not enough time to do even two or three of them. And it's very frustrating to like have constant ambitions of like 12 million things and be like, well, it's not going to happen. And then also, like, I talk about ideas all the time. And I feel like people get exasperated with me because they're like, this is the 50th idea I've heard from you over the last two years, and you've been talking about it forever. What are you just going to do it? And I'm like, maybe it's not about that.

Maybe it's just like, I'm constantly thinking of things and as time changes, I think of a new thing or as I learn more about the thing, then I'm like, okay, I'm not doing that anymore, but maybe I could do this. but it's like, in the meantime, my days are jam packed with stuff to do. And I don't know, I'm trying to figure out like, how do I find peace and be like, yes, I'm just going to have ideas all the time, but unless I decide to push other things aside to execute this one idea or be like, I'll do this one idea for one month and then I will stop and do a different idea.

just make peace with the fact that like, it's just gonna be a fire hose of ideas and like an absolute trickle of execution, you know?

Divia (08:29.985)

Yeah, I mean, I certainly relate to that. I think most people do, right? Yeah.

JC (08:32.466)

Yeah, I think that's like the human conditions. Like, yeah, but that's why it's funny to me when people are like, you've been talking about this for so long, when are you gonna do it? And I'm like, you've been talking about plenty of things for so long. We all talk about things for a long time. Like go f**k yourself, you know?

Divia (08:40.153)

Right?

Yeah, no, and I certainly, I think also like, this is sort of a, it's like a pretty basic answer, but like, I think one of the reasons that we get along is I think we both like talking about stuff, like we find that energizing. Probably also why we both have podcasts, like, and then, yeah.

JC (08:57.46)

Right.

Right. I mean, can I ask you, because one thing that drives me completely insane is feeling like I'm the only extrovert I know, but would you identify as an extrovert or like, okay, yeah, then I think that's a big f*****g point of like commonality between us, you know, like, do you find like you're you're surrounded by introverts and misanthropists or misanthropes or whatever the word is?

Divia (09:09.965)

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

Divia (09:20.043)

Well, yeah, no, some of that, but all like, and it's a little bit weird because I do consider myself an extrovert, but then this is some of the thing about having kids is I get to the end of the day or even in the middle of the day. And I'm like, I need nobody to talk to me for like five minutes in a row because I, you know, I think some of my kids are extroverts too, which I think is great. Or at least they want to talk to me. I think at least one of them is definitely an extrovert. And I think that's great. But like I

JC (09:34.8)

Mm

Divia (09:48.439)

because I do think there's something, certainly for me. So a weird thing that I've done, I'm not currently doing it very much, but I, there's this Facebook group for people who want to post like, I'll pay somebody to do this. And so it's just like among rationalists basically. it's, no, it's all over the map. Like last night I logged on and some guys like, I'll pay you a hundred dollars an hour if you help me with this programming thing right now.

JC (10:04.302)

What are the things they're asking for then? Not screwing in a light bulb but...

Divia (10:15.257)

But then other people will be like, like I once posted and I was like, I'll pay $5 to someone who makes a gift with the subtitle of this one thing from planet unicorn. Cause I couldn't figure out how to do it. And sure enough, someone was like, yeah, I'll do it. Cause that took me like two seconds. So like, why not make $5? But, but something I posted was because sometimes I like, if you ever noticed, like I'll get stuck on something and then once I talk it through, then I'm not stuck. It's a common human experience. So I was like, okay.

JC (10:16.195)

I need to learn programming.

JC (10:25.758)

That's cute.

That's cute. Nice.

JC (10:41.512)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (10:43.417)

I'll pay either $50 an hour or we'll do like an in -kind trade one hour per one hour for somebody to just listen to me talk about whatever it is I'm on about. And I don't normally do it and I ultimately like, I don't know, I feel a little weird about it, but then sometimes I do it. But it was extremely helpful whatever I did it.

JC (10:51.758)

Mm -hmm.

JC (11:00.276)

Mm -hmm. That's something that's another f*****g idea I have that I've never acted on and I may never act on and you got to make peace with it everybody in the world is is is offering hey I will listen to people for whatever 50 bucks an hour if you just need somebody to be present and listen I will do that and then one thing I thought was like I probably need to make some guardrails of like I'm allowed to say hey I need to stop you on that topic I don't want to hear about that if somebody's like let me tell you about this time that I just remembered a living cat it's like no thanks you know but if it's just like you know

Divia (11:07.383)

you

Divia (11:15.459)

Yeah.

Divia (11:29.325)

Right, right.

JC (11:29.992)

I'm feeling lonely and I need someone to listen. It's like, sure, you know.

Divia (11:33.495)

Yeah. Yeah. And for me, a lot of it's like, just, have some idea that like only half makes sense to me, but if I talk it through, they'll make more sense. but anyway, like I think sometimes my kids too, like I think they like to talk to people to process in like sometimes the sort of more one -sided way, which I think is developmentally appropriate and all fine. But then, so yeah, so I do think of myself as an extrovert, but then sometimes given that my kids and I still have little ones and then I have a lot of them.

JC (11:42.226)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (11:51.24)

That's funny. Right.

Divia (12:02.763)

and they rely on me, it doesn't meet, like, I don't necessarily want socialization on every margin, but especially if it's like more peer -like and like with somebody who's like also gonna care about, like also be more attuned to me. So it's like, that is one -sided. But yeah, I do find that very energizing. I do like to do it a lot.

JC (12:04.104)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:09.256)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:13.032)

Mm -hmm.

JC (12:22.74)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just talking to my cousin about, know, how like our social needs are not getting met, you know, and how I don't know if we just said this before recording or what, but the idea of like, you know, people would not be so desperate for relationships if their friends were showing up more, or if it was easier to get time with friends, you know, and I feel like at 40, I am so tired of chasing people around, you know, and I feel like as somebody who like works alone from home,

Divia (12:49.208)

Yeah.

JC (12:51.316)

I need the interaction more than they do. Like I recognize that a lot of my friends deal with people all day long in their jobs and then they come home and they just want to watch TV and not talk to anybody. And I'm the opposite. I'm alone all day. I want to talk to people when the work day ends, you know, or even in the middle of the work day, you know, and I'm so tired of calling 20 people and not getting anybody. It's, it's insane to me. It's like my friends have flexible schedules. They live all over the world. Da da da da. How can it be that all 20 people I try are not available?

Divia (13:04.098)

Right.

JC (13:21.14)

bright this same moment. You I'm not calling at 10 a on a Tuesday, you know what mean? And it's exhausting. And it's like when you feel like you need some social time, the worst feeling is like, well, I just tried 20 people. Most people don't have 20 people they could call. I have f*****g 80 people I could call. I call 20 and I'm so depleted by the idea that nobody picks up that I'm like.

Divia (13:25.997)

Yeah.

Divia (13:36.813)

Totally.

JC (13:43.964)

I can't do this to myself anymore. Like nothing comforts me more than talking to a friend, but it's not possible to talk to a friend. So I guess I got to read a book or listen to a podcast or go to the gym or whatever, you And I think if I knew like my friends are going to be present and show up and when I call somebody they will pick up or they will call right back or whatever, then, you know, it's like, I'm not longing for a relationship, but one reason why I understand why so many other people seem to be is just this idea of like, I need

Divia (13:55.352)

Yeah.

JC (14:13.384)

to have a designated person in my life who is obligated to show up for me. They have agreed to that and that's the expectation and they're gonna do it, you know?

Divia (14:22.487)

Yeah. No, I mean, this is, I think it's a huge topic because lots and lots of people talk about, and like, I don't really trust surveys that much, but in surveys, I think most people say they're lonely or at least like almost half, like a lot. It's big. It is also just, you know, aside from surveys, this just seems true of people I know when I asked them. But then, like you say, it's like modern culture does basically tend to have the frame of like,

JC (14:35.497)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (14:50.189)

You don't really owe anyone anything except maybe like the person you're dating and your kids and stuff like that. Like family and romantic partners are the only one that it's like more socially accepted to have that type of more like committed, like actually you owe them something in relationship with.

JC (14:58.025)

Yeah.

JC (15:02.995)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's what drives me crazy is like, people go and find relationships and create human beings that they are legally responsible for and that they kind of own in a way, partially because they're like, well, the alternative is being alone and that is horrifying. And it's like, okay, so why are you surprised when I say, hey, I really need to talk to you right now and it's not great if you can never talk. Because it's like, I don't have a...

Divia (15:21.73)

Right.

Divia (15:29.912)

Yeah.

JC (15:31.678)

partner and a family. I don't have built in people that are obligated to be present in my life, you know? So I need, you know, voluntary people. And yeah, you know, I'm very frustrated by the attitude of like, no one owes anybody anything, because it's like, then good f*****g luck to us. Then we're all gonna f*****g die. Is that what we want? No, like, I want a healthy society. And a big part of that is giving a s**t about other people and showing up, you know?

Divia (15:49.378)

Right.

Yeah, no.

Divia (15:58.807)

Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, and I mean, and I think like a lot of people, I don't know, like, I relate to this somewhat where I'm like, okay, like, you know, as a kid, you're going to have various sort of obligations that don't really make a lot of sense to me. And then at a certain point, I'm like, wait a minute, like, shouldn't I sort of get to decide for myself about these types of things? But then like, but then it doesn't mean I don't actually have obligations, obviously.

And I think some of how I try to think of it is like, whatever, what is the thing that I think is sort of supposed to happen? And then like, who are all of the plausible people who maybe could be doing it? And I'm one of them. And so maybe that's like some information about how much I ought to try to do it. Am I making sense?

JC (16:39.826)

Yeah. Yeah. And also like, you know, I'm just learning over time, like how to better focus my efforts as I try to get my social needs met, which frankly, I just don't know if it's ever going to happen unless I get some job that is just talking to people all day long. But I, know, a lot of those are not very well paid and I don't really want to do them. anyway, f**k was I going to say? Hang on. I've realized like, I can't just

you know, for lack of a better term, spray and pray in terms of how I try to make friends. Like, it gets more specific every year of like, okay, now I need friends who are planning to live in New York City forever. Now I need friends who are planning to live in my neighborhood forever because I don't want to take four trains to go see people. Now I need friends who are going to not be in a relationship and not have children if that means that they're not going to have time for their friends.

Divia (17:13.271)

Right.

Divia (17:26.091)

Mm

JC (17:32.564)

Now I need to find people that, and like all these things plus like natural friend chemistry. Like I don't want to hang out with people that are like perfectly nice, but I don't give a s**t about them. Like I want to have the like deep friend chemistry. And you know, and I'm realizing like, I feel like phases of life come out of nowhere and just like smack you in the face and like turn you upside down and shake you and make everything fall out of your pockets or whatever with like no warning. And so I feel like this phase of life, like the phase of life that started

Divia (17:41.517)

Great.

JC (17:58.612)

previously that's still going is like everybody's parents are getting old and it's starting to impact our lives where it's like now you have to really like take care of your parents and get in there and like do some work to help them and factor them in and blah blah blah in a way that maybe you didn't 10 years ago and like the new phase is like crossing the 40 line in New York City never in my life did I think about how so much of the culture of at least certain areas of New York City that I frequent

Divia (18:02.423)

Yeah.

Divia (18:21.613)

Yeah.

JC (18:28.148)

are about you're under 40 and you're going out and you're socializing. And it makes sense for you because you are under 40 or under 30 and that's what your people do. But then you cross the 40 boundary and it's like, okay, now I'm the grandma in the room. Everybody else here is still 24 and I'm not, and it feels weird and I don't like it. And also with like the generational divide, like Gen Z and Gen Alpha are so different from millennials in some ways.

Divia (18:33.069)

Mm

JC (18:54.036)

that it's like you feel like a foreigner and you feel like you do not know what's going on. And also it's like, I had this experience where I was playing with a cover band in a bar and all the patrons were under 26. And I looked out across this crowd of people in friend groups having the best time with their best friends from college and high school and whatever. And I couldn't help but think you people don't understand that this is gonna come to an end.

Divia (18:54.157)

Yeah.

JC (19:17.652)

real fast and either all of you are gonna leave or all your friends are gonna leave. And like this is a very fleeting era and then you're gonna be alone. And like I'm standing on here as the 40 year old on stage looking out at you like your fetuses and also being like enjoy it while you got it bro, cause this is gonna end real fast and nobody told me that, you know? And so it's been like a hard adjustment to be like, okay, where do I go as a 40 year old to not be the only 40 year old in the room? And like,

Divia (19:19.576)

No.

JC (19:46.9)

You know, I had a conversation with like a work colleague that I ran into somewhere where we were having this conversation of like, okay, we're women over 40 who want to live in New York forever, are not seeking relationships, are not seeking to move away and are not seeking to have children. Where do we find each other? Because there are many thousands of us and we all want community with each other because we're tired of having our hearts broken by everybody leaving, you know?

Divia (19:59.885)

Mm

JC (20:09.758)

but like somebody's gonna have to spearhead it. And again, that's another of my million ideas that I'll probably never do, but I kind of have to because I'm like, if I want my life to be better, I've got to step up and do this because nobody else will.

Divia (20:12.951)

Here.

Divia (20:20.345)

Okay, but it seems to me, like, and obviously I don't know all the details, but like, it seems to me like you do a lot. Like you actually do try to put yourself out there and meet a bunch of people and like, what are you talking about doing that you're not already doing?

JC (20:30.15)

Yeah. Well, so for example, last or a couple nights ago, I went out, I took the initiative to talk to somebody new who was like playing pool and stuff. And I was like, do you want somebody to play with? And he was like, sure. Like I actually was really hoping somebody would ask. And I was like, amazing, great. We had a great time playing and chatting. He's, you know, friendly and interesting and like all these great things. But I I've met so many people over my adulthood who I'm like, I really like this person. I'd like to stay in touch with them. I'd like to try to build a friendship with them, whatever.

and I put in the effort and it doesn't lead anywhere. And so now I'm kind of like, I'm not gonna like try to make something happen with people anymore unless I'm like, this person is so special and I really think they want me to like invite them to like continue knowing each other. Otherwise it's like, this is one of the another person where I had an amazing time with them and it doesn't mean anything to them or it does, but they don't want a friendship, you know, or they're not gonna.

Divia (21:01.997)

Yeah. Yeah.

Divia (21:25.016)

Right.

JC (21:25.982)

put in the work and I'm so tired of being the first one to message and then like not hearing back or being the person who has to like set up like the first like three hangouts until it kind of like get the momentum going. And also it's like he was a guy and you he was there with his adult child and so I don't know if he had a partner he didn't mention it but it's like I you know I don't know I don't know what the vibe was I didn't I didn't say like you know.

Divia (21:35.651)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (21:50.178)

Right.

JC (21:51.644)

hey, are you open to friendship, whatever. And also he was like in his mid 50s, so it's like, maybe he is pretty satisfied with his life or maybe he's not, but he didn't seem to want me to make an effort to like keep in touch. So I'm at the point now where I'm like, if I'm not getting the vibe that somebody's like, please let's be friends, then I'll just kind of hold back and be like, it was awesome hanging out with you, know? Yeah.

Divia (22:05.187)

Right.

Divia (22:13.655)

Yeah, not waste your energy on that.

Divia (22:19.425)

Yeah, no, it's I think it is one of those things where a lot of people really do want community. A lot of people really are lonely. And then I have I have a similar experience to you of most people don't follow up or anything like that. Or like even if I do follow up, it doesn't mean that they do. And. Yeah, spray and pray, sort of like what you said.

JC (22:32.392)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

JC (22:39.602)

Yeah, you know, it's tough. know, I'm somebody who would like to have that conversation directly, but I feel like a lot of people say like, but you can't do that. You can't ask that. And so I feel like it's okay to kind of feel it out of just being like, I was getting the vibe that like, yes, he thought I was funny and nice and yes, we had a good time playing pool together and yes, yes, yes. But he doesn't seem to be wanting to exchange information. It doesn't seem like he'll care if he never sees me again. like.

I'm just gonna let it be and say good night. And I kind of opened the door where it's like, I could have just left without saying goodbye, but instead I said, hey, it was really fun hanging out with you. I'm gonna head out, but have a great night. He could have been like, wait, let me get your information, but he didn't. at this point, after being the person who makes all the effort, I wanna meet people who are trying to make an effort. it's like my friend who was there with me who's so funny, he's like, I think that guy wants to bone you, whatever. And first of all, it's like, well, that's not.

Divia (23:23.715)

Right.

Divia (23:31.32)

Yeah.

JC (23:37.148)

what I want from him, but second, if he does, then he should f*****g say something. He should ask for my f*****g information. I don't wanna deal with a guy who's not gonna make effort. So whether it's for a friend or for a companion, know? Yeah, and that's another little like subtopic is like.

Divia (23:43.181)

Yeah.

Totally.

Divia (23:52.046)

Yeah.

JC (23:58.264)

I have wasted so much energy trying to build friendships with men who are in relationships with women. Just, you know, friendships. And it's like, I've learned, beware the straight man who's in a relationship with a woman because he is a waste of your f*****g time. He will not put in effort. You know, he will have paranoia about like, like my girlfriend, what would she think? It's like, it doesn't f*****g matter. I'm not trying to f**k you. Calm down, you know? And like...

Divia (24:07.192)

Yeah.

Divia (24:21.776)

Thank

JC (24:23.954)

So I just feel like that's a demographic where it's like, tread real carefully, let them make the effort, because if I make the effort and then they dip, it's like, it's more and more disappointment for me and I'm sick of it, you know?

Divia (24:37.429)

Yeah, I mean, so are there people where you have had more success? Yeah. Okay, what are the most promising ones?

JC (24:40.66)

other demographics of people? For sure. It's like, you know, I can make friends with women all day long, you know, basically like women and gay guys, you know, same s**t. We all know, you know, you know, it's like this is, this is, you know, I was talking to, you know, my cousin about this. I've talked to lots of people. I think one of the most alarming things going on in our society is the, is the real, I don't know if you'd say bifurcation or like just the segregation and separation of men and women, you know, especially like straight men and straight women, you know.

Divia (24:48.481)

Okay, yeah.

Divia (25:06.861)

Mm.

JC (25:10.004)

It's a real problem. And I think it's only gonna make things worse and worse and worse if we don't start bridging the gap. But in order to bridge the gap, we've gotta fight the rhetoric where people are saying, men are trash, women suck, whatever. It's like, if you have this idea that a whole group of people is terrible, then you're alienating them. And you're not gonna put any effort into trying to get to know them. And it's like,

I love straight men. I have straight men friends who I just adore and straight men in my life that I just think are the best people and I love talking to them. I love hanging out with them. I'm just saying that when I meet a straight man who has a girlfriend, that seems like a minefield because it's like, you know, this guy that I met recently, it made me so angry because he's an awesome guy and I really wanted to be friends with him and he lives in my neighborhood. We hung out, we talked for six hours, but you know what?

Divia (25:51.352)

Yeah.

Divia (25:59.255)

Hmm.

JC (26:02.844)

He was talking about how things weren't going well with his girlfriend. And you know when I stopped hearing from him? When things started going better with her. And it's like, are you f*****g kidding me? And it's like, and at least just say, like, hey, I really had an awesome time talking with you. Things are going better with my girlfriend now. We're spending a lot of time together. I just don't have bandwidth for like building new friendships right now or whatever. But the whole like complete disregard of like,

Divia (26:14.765)

Yeah.

JC (26:28.984)

six hours talking to a new person and you don't wanna be friends? What the f**k? And it's so obvious that it's about your f*****g girlfriend and now you're getting what you need from her so you don't care about friends. And it's like, f**k you, friendship f*****g matters.

Divia (26:35.991)

Yeah, you just can't relate to it, right?

Divia (26:45.763)

Yeah.

Yeah, how do you, like, if you could sort of, like, what is your speech to people about how they ought to relate to friendship? Like, how do you think people should do it?

JC (26:56.7)

Like if I'm just talking to like the general public about it. Well, one thing I've been thinking is like people really should treat it like dating in the sense of like a friendship is not a friendship until you both kind of get to know each other a little bit and you agree like, okay, we are friends now. Like you're not friends if you've like met at a party and hung out once, you know, it's like you're not obligated to each other. And there needs to be an open line of communication of like if somebody is really feeling it and the other person's not quite so sure.

Divia (26:58.722)

Yeah.

Divia (27:16.557)

Mm

JC (27:24.584)

then the person who's really feeling it should probably be like, hey, let's hang out again. And if the other person isn't feeling it, they can be like, you know, thank you so much, but I'm not really feeling it the way you would with dating instead of like, okay. And then you're just like leading someone on in a friendship way. But also it's like, I think it's like, you have to show up. Like a conversation I'll never forget. Is there somebody that I know from college who I don't know if you know or not, but we were having a conversation at a party once and he was saying,

Divia (27:34.817)

And then, right.

JC (27:50.136)

I was talking about friendship stuff or whatever. And he was saying like, well, I have a friend who's really mad at me because like, I don't really keep in touch. And he's like, but why is she so mad? I'm not doing anything. I'm not taking action that is hurting her. So like, what am I doing wrong? I'm not doing anything. And I was like, dummy, she wants you to do something. So you're neglecting the relationship. That's why she's angry. Like, we don't have friends so that they can just...

Divia (27:56.642)

Divia (28:07.96)

Yeah.

JC (28:13.874)

you know, ghost us. Like if you're going to be somebody's friend, you should send a text once in a while. You should have a call once in a while. You should let them know when you're in their city, you know? And so yeah, she's angry because you're supposed to be her friend and you're slacking on your friend duties, you know? And she's telling you that and you're not remedying it. You're not her friend. Just tell her, I don't want to be friends anymore. I can't, I can't put in the effort. So I can't, you're not going to get anything out of this friendship. So I'm going to peace out, you know?

Divia (28:28.065)

Yeah.

JC (28:41.598)

So yeah, think friendship is so much about like caring and actually showing that you care. Because like something I think about all the time, which is like, you know, it's whatever, but it is what it is. Like I love saying things that mean nothing. It is what it is. I think all the time about like, if I died, I know that there's a lot of people who'd be like, my God, I loved her. And it's like.

Divia (28:52.297)

You

JC (29:02.788)

and you never called me and you never texted and you never let me know when you were in New York and you never made an effort. like save it a*****e. know, like if you care about me f*****g do something about it. So that's definitely my thing is like when you think of someone in your life, send them a text, do it.

Divia (29:05.581)

Yeah.

Divia (29:13.356)

You

Divia (29:25.143)

Yeah. Okay, yeah. So it seems like for you, they're kind of two things that are maybe the same thing. One is like, have a concept in your head, a friend that means, that has some obligation attached to it. That isn't just like, like them, but it's like, and here's how I'll show up for them. And you also want people to be direct with people about whether they're up for that or not.

JC (29:37.832)

Mm -hmm.

JC (29:41.651)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, because I feel like a lot of times I think about how I feel like I'm item number 697 on a lot of my quote unquote friends priority lists where it's just like, if I'm not poking them for attention, I'll never hear from them again. And like, it will never occur to them to send me a text or whatever. But if I say like, hey, you're invited to my birthday, they show up and they have a great time and they talk to me. If I say, hey, do you want to go see this movie together? They'll be like, yes. And then we'll have a grand old time. But like, yeah, if I don't, it's like,

It does not feel like I matter to them in the least. And like, it's not my preference.

Divia (30:20.545)

Yeah, no, it's true. a lot of a lot of like if I periodically they'll be like Twitter threads or stuff and I'll sometimes signal boost them about like here's how to meet people if you're trying to as an adult or whatever. And it's a lot of stuff that we've talked about, like put yourself out there, introduce yourself, host events, whatever, whatever, like all that stuff. And I do think it's true that the advice doesn't usually the advice tends to assume that the person is willing to put in all of the effort themselves perpetually. Which it makes sense.

JC (30:46.298)

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Or at least like a lot of effort up front of like send the first message. If you don't get a response, follow up gently. If you don't get a response, then maybe leave it alone. But like, yeah, like set up the first meeting, then like set up the second meeting a couple of weeks later, and like communicate directly. It's funny, I have a friendship that like just started recently where it was kind of crazy to me because we started...

with a little bit of like a conflict about like, I'm really disappointed in how you are not showing up, you know? And then we had to have this whole like text discussion about like, yeah, I'm sorry, I've just been like so busy and this is not how I usually am and I know that it sucks. Cause I think we had our initial conversation, we met at a party, our initial conversation had been like, we're feeling a little lonely, we want more friends, we're the kind of people that show up as friends. We like talking to each other. Okay, great, let's make a time to hang out. And then it was extremely difficult to get that first time on the calendar.

Divia (31:18.659)

Mm

Divia (31:42.371)

Mm

JC (31:42.388)

and, and so I was feeling very like tender about that because I ha I was dealing with another friend that was kind of flaking and I was just like feeling very frustrated and exhausted by like constant friend flakiness and, never getting any closure about that because it always feels like you can't be like, Hey, I'm not happy with what's going on here because people will just kind of be like, chill out, dude. Your number 697 on the call list.

Like, what are you expecting? You know what I mean? But I'm kind of at the point now where it's like, well, if I'm number 697, I can say if I have a problem, and if you don't like it you want to walk away, what am I really losing? But like, I'm sick and tired of being like, it's all fine, it's not, you know? So anyway, so I was like, you know what? I just met this woman, I want to be friends with her, but if me expressing myself makes her go away, I'm okay with that because we just met. So again, what am I losing?

Divia (32:08.332)

Right.

Divia (32:15.669)

Right.

Divia (32:22.424)

Yeah.

JC (32:33.958)

and I'm tired of holding everything back all the time. So I said, like, hey, I'm not happy about how hard it's been to get something on the couch. I don't remember the exact words. I use something gentler than this, because I know that sounds like a lot or whatever. But I was just like, you know, I'm just so exhausted by all the friend crap that I deal with all the time. And it just feels like we're going down that same road. And I just don't want that. So let's please try to make something happen or let it go. And she was, I was really.

Divia (32:36.611)

Thank

Divia (32:43.33)

Okay.

Divia (33:02.211)

Good.

JC (33:03.782)

impressed by her stepping up and being like, you're right, it has not been ideal. This is not how I want to show up. Things have been crazy. I'm sorry. This is like not how I usually am. And like, we will make this happen. And then like we did make it happen. And it was kind of weird to start off because I was just like, you like we started with a conflict like that has never happened to me before. But we also started with resolving a conflict, which makes me feel more like secure and confident about like

Divia (33:15.107)

Okay.

JC (33:30.194)

she's somebody who's willing to have the conversation and then like course correct, which is amazing, you especially for a f*****g new person to whom she owes nothing, you know? You know, and it was, but I just felt like, let me just like clear the air of just like, I'm sorry that we started in conflict. I really appreciate how you like stepped up. It'll be okay. I understand. I was also in just like a really sensitive moment about this exact issue. So I was just kind of like, f**k it. I'm going to tell this person how I feel. I'm sick of not saying anything.

Divia (33:35.041)

Okay.

Right.

JC (34:00.244)

But I think, you we cleared the air about that and then we're like off to the races now and we're like kind of, you know, slowly building some rapport and I'm sure it'll be fine. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's funny because it's like she's she's really great, but she does live far enough away that it's like, God, like, I really want friends within 10 blocks at this point, you know.

Divia (34:11.884)

the school.

Divia (34:24.479)

That's so close though.

JC (34:26.034)

I know, but it's like, you my neighborhood is chock -a -block with cool, nice people. And let me tell you this, like I could talk about this s**t forever. I ran into a friend from college the other night. I didn't see him, he saw me. He called out to me, he reminded me who he was, because like my eyesight is not great. And you know, like at this point in our lives, it's like, there's so many faces where it's like, I know this face, but.

Divia (34:32.185)

You

Divia (34:43.918)

Yeah.

JC (34:47.486)

please help me. And so he immediately told me who he was, which I really appreciated. And I was like, of course. And then I was like right in it of like, I remembered our inside jokes and like I remembered our context and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, hey, what are you doing? He was like, I'm doing this job. I was like, where are you living? He lives three blocks away from me. But I have always gotten the vibe from this guy that he is not going to show up as a friend for me. He's a friendly acquaintance who is willing to say hello to me proactively when I didn't even see him. But he does not want to exchange information.

Divia (34:57.282)

Nice.

Divia (35:03.513)

Wow.

Divia (35:08.439)

Right.

JC (35:15.432)

does not want to be in touch. He's a f*****g straight man with a girlfriend. It just is what it is. And so I'm not going to do the thing anymore of like, well, we should grab coffee. No, we shouldn't because you don't want to. So like, I accept that you are a person who remembers that you know me and you proactively say hello to me when you didn't have to, but you will not engage with me beyond that. And I accept that. But I'm just like, why do you live three blocks from me and Divya lives in Austin?

Divia (35:20.323)

Yeah.

Divia (35:28.365)

Right.

Divia (35:45.025)

Yeah.

JC (35:45.044)

Why do you live three blocks from me and all my best friends have moved across the globe? What the f**k? So I'm just like, there have to be people within 10 blocks of me that are willing to engage with me. And I wanna find those people and create relationships, you know?

Divia (36:00.557)

Yeah, no, I mean, it's it is a big value add to have people be close for sure. Like physically close. I did know and and it took forever. Yeah, I don't I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast very much, but but I did finally move to Austin in a neighborhood with other friends that I already knew. And it's honestly it's really great. And I will say, though, for me, something I learned about myself during Covid is it works like I definitely prefer seeing people in person, to be clear. But I

JC (36:05.468)

I mean, you literally put a huge amount of effort into making that happen.

JC (36:20.745)

Mm -hmm.

JC (36:28.38)

Mm -hmm.

Divia (36:30.359)

do all right if I get to just talk on the phone. But then I'm like, for my kids, especially, it's just like even more important that it be in person. Though then I say that, know, so the thing you're saying about like, yeah, and so the people we moved with, so one of them does not have kids, he's just a guy, you know, and he hangs out and that's cool. Or so he has step kids that are much older, but he doesn't have.

JC (36:32.456)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

JC (36:40.272)

Mm -hmm. You mean your kids to p