“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan engage in a heartfelt discussion with Todd Olson, CEO and founder of Pendo.Todd shares his personal and professional journey, from his early days as a developer to his current role as CEO. He provides deep insights into leadership, his unique hiring process, and why he believes HR is essential to business success where human connection and vulnerability are prioritized.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsLINKS:Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/HR Heretics podcast with JR Rettig: Building Legendary Teams: Trust, Transition, and Quality with JR Rettig of PendoLINKEDIN:Todd: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddaolsonNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction(03:00) Typecasting and the importance of being the CEO(05:00) Co-founder dynamics at Pendo(09:00) The CEO card and cultural decisions(12:00) Blending human elements with leadership(16:00) The impact of personal life on leadership(17:13) Sponsors: Workvivo | Attio(19:47) Todd on Elon Musk(21:00) Building a culture of followership(24:00) Hiring practices(27:00) The "why" behind joining Pendo(31:00) Interviewing Senior SDRs(34:00) CEO involvement in offer review(37:00) Hiring executives(41:00) The first 90 days of an executive(45:00) The role of HR in 2024(50:00) Hiring a head of HR This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli explore the rising trend of replacing managers with coaches, examining the pros and cons of this model and its potential impact on employee development.They also discuss the practicalities of implementing a coach-based management model, including the role of functional expertise and the need for rapid onboarding of coaches.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Introduction & The Big Changes in Tech (01:40) Tweaking the System (02:52) The NVIDIA Model: Pros and Cons (04:14) One-On-Ones and The Middle Ground (6:00) The Importance of Spontaneous Communication (07:18) Sponsor: Attio (08:15) Skillset and Capability Considerations (09:09) Assessing Candidates for New Environments (11:07) The Canva Model: External Coaches (13:00) Executive Coaching vs Functional Coaching (13:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church welcome Michelle Delcambre, an operating partner at Felicis (and formerly of Stripe & Databricks), to discuss company growth trajectories, and strategic HR practices around talent, comp, and exits. Michelle shares the development of Felicis’ ‘Benchmark Your Org' tool — which you can access here — it’s a free platform utilizing data from 15,000 companies, updated monthly, to help founders benchmark organizational growth. This conversation, which is one of Nolan's favorite episodes of the year, covers common founder mistakes and offers insights around pre-negotiated exit packages, comp strategies, company attrition, and so much more.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsLINKS:Benchmark Your Org: https://www.felicis.com/benchmarkLINKEDIN:Michelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledelcambre/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(04:30) Actually useful benchmarks for founders(07:25) What metrics do people care about now?Boomerangs(09:30) Missing people data metrics(10:30) The talent vortex(15:35) Sponsors: WorkVivo | Attio(18:15) The anxiety of the “Regrettable attrition” metric and boomerang employees(23:07) Compensation challenges in startups(25:52) Tender offers and secondary markets(28:13) Innovative solutions for employee equity(38:41) Pre-negotiated severance and employee retention(43:56) Common mistakes founders make(49:36) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dive into the devastating impact of toxic managers, featuring real stories of burnout, mental health struggles, and even suicide. They delve into the misconduct of a Baidu executive who displayed horrific behavior towards her employees and the extreme pressures leading to suicides among investment bankers, highlighted by a tragic case at Bank of America. From recognizing the signs of toxic management to building a strong support network, Kelli and Nolan offer actionable advice on navigating difficult workplaces and prioritizing your well-being. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsRelated Articles:* Top exec at Chinese search giant Baidu tells workers ‘I’m not your mom’ — then loses job* Death of Former Green Beret (IB Associate at BofA)—KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:37) Toxic Managers: Baidu Executive's Shocking Behavior(01:03) Toxic Managers: The Tragic Case of the iBanker(01:34) Kelli's Take on Toxic Management(04:26) Nolan's Perspective on Work-Life Balance(06:40) Sponsor Workvivo | Attio(09:19) The Impact of Fear-Based Leadership(11:15) Balancing Work Expectations and Employee Well-being(13:57) Encouragement and Community Support(16:17) An Element of EQ Is Necessary(19:19) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Casey Woo, a former public market investor turned 7x high-growth executive (including WeWork). He is now the founder of Operations Guild and General Partner at FOG Ventures. Casey shares eye-opening experiences from his time at WeWork and describes working with Adam Neumann, and the dynamics of rapid business scaling. They also highlight the impact of AI on business operations, the rise of the business operator, and discuss what skill-based ‘‘specialist generalists” do.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH CASEY, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINCasey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywoo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:14) Casey's journey and WeWork experience(08:39) Lessons from WeWork(14:19) Current Climate and Operators Guild(19:48) Sponsor: WorkVivo | Attio(20:45) Current pace of AI development(26:26) The Rise of the Operator(35:03) Importance of generalists in business(41:10) Building a Community: Lessons Learned(44:42) Future of operators and founding businesses(49:56) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli discuss an article from Business Insider about the ongoing white-collar recession, particularly affecting those earning over $100,000 a year. They discuss significant changes in the tech job market, including the influence of AI, global competition, and the shift from managerial roles to more individual contributor positions. The episode concludes with insights into personal fulfillment versus financial stability in career choices.Vanguard data reveals a hiring freeze for six-figure earners, impacting tech and finance. Is this the start of a white-collar recession?HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Discover Workvivo, Zoom’s employee experience platform, designed to delight your hybrid workforce. With dynamic and intuitive features people actually like using, Workvivo fosters a sense of belonging and boosts retention and productivity. Join Ryanair, Dollar General, and Virgin — head to https://bit.ly/hrhereticsworkvivo to book a demo (tell them Kelli and Nolan sent you).Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich—TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Introduction to the White Collar Recession00:30 The Dichotomy of Employment Data00:48 Challenges for High Earners01:56 The Big Stay and Trapped in Place Economy02:34 Industry-Specific Impacts05:21 Global Competition and AI's Role06:23 The Future of Tech Employment08:34 Personal Reflections and Career Changes08:43 Sponsor: Workvivo | Attio11:12: First-World Work Problems13:02: Self-Reflection and Assessment15:34: On Gratitude on Salaries and Roles16:11 Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli sit down with Nathan Tanner, an executive coach, author of The Unconquerable Leader, and former HR leader at DoorDash, Neighbor, and LinkedIn. Nathan demystifies the black box of coaching as a career path for people leaders, getting into the nitty-gritty of setting up the business, getting clients, and the economics of coaching. They also discuss the fine line between the empathy required of an HR leader, an executive coach, and a therapist.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH NATHAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNathan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathantanner/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:58) Nathan’s journey into coaching(02:53) Impact and philosophy of coaching(05:25) Navigating the coach, HR leader, and client relationship(13:08) What makes a great coach?(15:52) Sponsor: Attio(16:49) Assessing client’s perspectives(21:49) Lifecycle of a coaching relationship(24:29) Balancing revenue and client success(26:03) Strategies and challenges of building a client base(30:38) Economics of coaching(35:33) Maximizing your coaching business(39:34) Essential tools for success(42:20) Value of transparency and resilience(44:13) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Nolan Church breaks down what is happening over at OpenAI and what we know about three developing stories involving exec departures, equity, and transparency. Kelli is on vacation this week. He touches on:* The departure of Ilya Sutskever, co-founder and chief scientist, along with Jan Lieke* The journalistic investigation by Vox's Kelsey Piper, who broke the story of OpenAI's practice of requiring departing employees to sign life-long non-disclosure and non-disparagement agreements, threatening the loss of vested equity for breach* The incident involving Scarlett Johansson being approached to voice OpenAI’s AI, without her consent, raising questions about ethical use of voice likeness in AI technologiesNolan debriefs with lessons for HR leaders and company founders.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:47) The Big Departures: OpenAI's Executive Shake-Up(03:31) OpenAI's Controversial NDAs(05:12) Sponsors: Attio(08:21) The Scarlett Johansson Voice Saga(10:04) The Future of OpenAI and HR Lessons(10:50) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli have an honest and transparent discussion with CEO and founder of Remote Job van der Voort (also the former VP of Product at GitLab) on the nuances of running an international remote company. Job strongly emphasises how trying to replicate the office environment in a remote setting doesn’t work and how giving small teams extreme autonomy with focus on outcome-based-management far outweighs surveillance and micro management. Kelli, Nolan and Job chat about early career growth and development in remote settings vs learning by osmosis in the office and how the company committed to developing new methodologies to mentor and train up juniors.Job also gives insights into the complexities of global hiring, geography-based compensation, and geographic mobility for remote workers and discusses the impact it has on contracts and mutual obligations.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH JOB, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJob: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobvo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Replicating Office Culture in Remote Settings(06:45) Embracing Asynchronous Work and Team Autonomy(09:48) Hiring and Training in a Remote-First World(13:51) Innovative Remote Work Practices and Tools(17:50) Addressing the Challenges of Remote Work (22:10) Remote's Approach to Documentation and Communication(26:00) International Employment and Expansion(26:54) Global Employment with Remote(28:10) Global Compensation Strategies(33:52) Equity and Performance in Global Teams(39:40) Mobility and Compensation In Employee Relocation(46:55) The Global Hiring Market and Future Trends(51.24) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today's segment, Kelli welcomes back Janelle Lopez, discussing her recent career decision to take a second-in-command role at Coursera over the top Chief People Officer position elsewhere. She gives us an honest look into her decision-making, her networking efforts (75 meetings!), and how to assess a company for fit.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.--SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics--KEEP UP WITH JANELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINJanelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:27) Career Decision: Chief People Officer vs. Number Two Role(01:27) Networking(04:29) Evaluating Opportunities(08:04) The Real Power of Networking(12:01) Biggest Lessons From the Job Search(13:23) Janelle's Future Aspirations(14:20) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli chat humanity in leadership with Michelle Weaver, CFO at Twitch (now part of Amazon). Michelle Weaver has 25 years experience including Hired (with Kelli), StitchFix, Axiom, Gap, Inc. and EA.Michelle emphasises the importance of a human-first leadership approach and that growth and learning can come from the projects you work on, not just promotions. The team all agree that building a strong relationship with the CFO builds a strong business foundation and knowing the business you’re in makes you a stronger leader. They also advocate for taking the wins from experiences with bad managers by being the outcome you want to see.Michelle also offers advice on selecting the company you want to work for and understanding the 'why' behind business numbers. She also goes deep on staying grounded through the M&A process and gives her own spin on personal growth and burnout in high-stress environments. HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Get new episodes straight to your inbox: HRHeretics.substack.com.SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH MICHELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINMichelle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-weaver/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:45) The Human Side of Being a CFO(04:10) Rethinking Team Management and Development(06:20) Promotions and Organisational Changes(08:03) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM(08:59) The Power of CFO and CPO Collaboration(12.18) Structural Alignments Within The Company(15.46) The CPO interviewing the CFO (17:16) Choosing the Right Company(21:10) The Expansion of Gaming(24:06) M&A Trends and Staying Grounded(27:37) The Role of a CFO in Navigating M&A Challenges(30:31) Deep Dive into the M&A Process(32:45) Red Flags and Deal Breakers in M&A(37:15) Addressing Burnout and Understanding What Your Passion Is(42:59) How to Discover Your Passion(48:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the recent FTC ruling to ban non-compete agreements nationwide in the US, the broader implications of the ruling for employers and employees, and the future of AI and tech post-ban.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) FTC Bans Non-Competes Nationwide(00:53) Personal Takes on the Non-Compete Ban(01:13) The Surprising Impact of Non-Competes Across Industries(02:49) Freedom and Innovation(05:09) Balancing Trade Secrets and Employee Freedom(07:33) The Future of Tech and AI Post-Ban(10:41) Embracing Side Hustles and Innovation(11:56) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan are joined by Kristy McCann Flynn, a seasoned HR professional with 25 years of experience, who shares her journey from working in traditional HR roles to founding SkillCycle, a company aimed at revolutionizing talent development and performance management.The lively debate covers the evolving role of HR, why HR software purchasing power might be changing, why HR practitioners are doing it wrong if the 50% of their time is spent hearing staff concerns, and as ever, the fundamental importance of aligning HR initiatives with business outcomes.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.coThis episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsLINKS: https://www.skillcycle.com/KEEP UP WITH KRISTY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Kristy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmflynn/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:41) The Genesis of SkillCycle: A Response to Industry Frustrations(01:17) Navigating Corporate America's Challenges and Changes(03:29) Revolutionizing Talent Development(04:20) Transforming HR and Talent Management(04:54) Addressing the Skills Gap: A New Approach to HR Tech(05:33) The Business Case for Investing in Talent Development(09:04) SkillCycle's Strategy: Performance, Engagement, and Learning(09:26) Skill Development vs. Hiring(13:20) Sponsor: Attio(16:31) Enabling Your Entire Workforce(17:39) Investing in Employees Without Bias(20:04) Burnout in HR(24:18) The Future of HR and Shifting Focus to Business Leaders(27:37) Strategies for Professional Development and Growth(29:04) Navigating Budgets and Building Relationships with CFOs(31:02) The Importance of Business Acumen in HR(32:12) Redefining HR's Role Beyond Being a Complaint Department(37:29) On Engagement and Pulse Surveys(43:26) Transitioning from HR to CEO: Insights and Reflections(47:31) Optimism vs. Pessimism in Leadership(50:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today's segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss Google firing employees who barricaded themselves in the CEO of Google Cloud Thomas Kurian's office for nine hours, to protest Google providing cloud computing services to the Israeli Ministry of Defense. Google CEO swiftly released a 'No Politics in the Workplace' message. The discussion explores the broader implications of protesting in the workplace, raises questions about protests and explores alternative ways to voice dissent without disruption.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentineKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) The Google Protest Controversy: An HR Perspective(01:23) Analyzing the Protest: Tactics and Consequences(02:35) The Fine Line Between Protest and Workplace Disruption(06:13) Google's Response and the Shift in Tech Culture(07:48) Sponsor: Attio(11:31) Exploring Solutions and the Future of Workplace Politics(14:19) Thoughts on Politics in the Workplace This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This week Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Peterson Conway, headhunter, investor, and advisor who shares insights from his epic career working closely with Silicon Valley greats like Peter Thiel, Kevin Hartz, Keith Rabois, and Joe Lonsdale. Conway has assembled talent for the founding/early teams of Xoom, Palantir, Founders Fund, and 8VCStrap in for some crazy stories. Conway's journey highlights the significance of curiosity, optimism, and unconventional hiring practices in Silicon Valley. Conway reflects on the profile of talent he looks for and drills down to certain keywords he uses to search for seeking individuals with strong convictions and a "fight from the bottom" spirit.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics--LINKS:Zero to 1 by Peter Thiel & Blake Masters: https://www.amazon.com.au/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296Butthole Notorious: https://pconway-73418.medium.com/butthole-notorious-e4ac4ff12db4Peterson Conway: https://www.petersonconway.com/KEEP UP WITH PETERSON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINPeterson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersonconway/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(01:49) Intro(02:41) Peterson's Unconventional Path to Silicon Valley Success(09:23) Navigating Challenges and Learning from Silicon Valley Titans(16:18) Exploring the Magic of Silicon Valley and Beyond(18:56) Sponsor: Attio(24:46) The Dynamics of Connectivity, Safety, and the Future of Work(27:37) Exploring the Intersection of Fear and Love(27:55) The Therapeutic Journey: From Fear to Healing(28:13) On Guilt, Shame, and Vulnerability(29:55) Unfiltered Conversations: Embracing Discomfort(31:42) The Power of Silence in Communication(32:26) Team Construction and the Quest for the Right Hire(35:04) Recruiting: From Elite Schools to Keyword Searches for Grit and Determination(39:14) The Role of HR in Shaping Company Culture(43:36) On Unconventional Recruiting and Finding Hidden Gems(50:19) The Art of Asking for Forgiveness, Not Permission(50:41) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment , Nolan and Kelli discuss new information about Shopify's Mastery Program. Employees are assigned a mastery score, and if their score does not increase, they do not receive a raise. They cover the implications of this new approach, comparing it to previous systems used by other companies which also relied on ratings and algorithms to determine merit increases, and discuss the concept of creating a zero-sum game in the workplace. While not exactly new, internal competition is front and center in Shopify’s transparent new approach.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsLINKS:Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/masteryInformation article: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/shopify-employees-go-head-to-head-for-raises-in-new-ranking-systemKEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS(00:00) Shopify's Mastery Program(04:34) Exploring the Broader Implications of Performance Review Systems(08:59) A New Era of Performance Management and Employee Evaluation(09:04) Sponsor: Attio CRM(09:57) Nolan’s Time at Carta(11:55) Commending More Experimentation This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss the audacious quest to change the HR market with Adam Weber, Chief Evangelist of 15Five.The team discuss the new reality of strategic HR business outcomes and the importance of developing and nurturing high-performance cultures and building great leaders, with the critical necessity of upskilling leadership development fast to adapt to new trends such as the addition of AI which will change the face of how we know HR today.Adam also advocates for having courage and standing up for what you believe is true in the business and valuing the role of the Individual Contributor.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Subscribe to our substack: hrheretics.comSPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsLINKS:Adam wrote the best selling book Lead Like A Human on leadership and culture: how to bring your full self to work and unleash your full potential.HR Superstars podcast: https://www.15five.com/resources/podcast/KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINAdam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetadam/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS(00:00) Intro(02:57) From Founder to Team Member(03:09) Role Power In Practice(04:51) HR Superstars Community(05:26) Autonomy and Decision Making Post-Acquisition(07:22) The Amplify Team's Integration and Evolution Within 15Five(09:33) Old HR vs New HR: Changes and Expectations(13:44) What CEO’s think(15.23) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM(16:40) Showing Courage and Backing Yourself(21:11) Understanding the Business on A Deeper Level(24:40) Superhero Mentality vs Delegator Mentality(27:10) AI’s Impact on HR(28:38) Upskilling and the Future of Work(29:16) The Dichotomy of Company Strategies on Upskilling(35:00) Celebrating Individual Contributors (41:00) Rethinking Best Practices and Embracing Experimentation(43:32) Visibility and Sharing Wins and Losses (46.12) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

HR Heretics bestie Colleen McCreary joins Kelli Dragovich for today’s segment to discuss a recent viral post about a VP People candidate who was denied a job because she didn’t wear makeup. Colleen and Kelli discuss the expectations and norms about appearance in the workplace and the nuances of providing helpful feedback to candidates.—HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe at hrheretics.substack.com—SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, KELLI + NOLAN ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/—LINKS:Viral Post: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/woman-says-she-denied-job-because-didnt-wear-makeup-aywoe/Colleen’s Writing: https://medium.com/@colleenwheelermccreary—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Colleen Guests on Today’s Segment(00:19) The Case of Melissa Weaver & Workplace Appearance Standards(07:20) Sponsor: Attio CRM(08:18) The Legal Perspective: Can Appearance Influence Hiring?(10:18) Navigating Interview Feedback(15:22) Authenticity at Work(15:55) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli discuss “happiness police” overkill with Jeff Diana, former Chief People Officer of Calendly and Atlassian.They talk about the importance of being clear on who you are as a business to avoid massive swings and over-rotations in current HR programs. Jeff believes it’s driving shareholder value that creates employment and that HR pros need to think more like investors and shareholders with focus on business impact rather than focusing on employee satisfaction alone.Jeff also offers advice on being OK with saying no to a job that doesn’t “light you up”… and testing the alignment with HR philosophies and execution of business outcomes with the ones that do! He also offers advice on building a strong relationship with the CEO and is it better to report to a CFO or CEO if you’re aiming for that number 1 CPO role?!HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join Replicate, ElevenLabs, Modal and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH JEFF, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJeff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-diana/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:24) The HR Market Today(02:37) The Shift in HR's Role(04:44) Understanding the Market Shift(05:05) Changes in HR's Role Amidst Economic and Cultural Shifts(09:23) Over-rotations in HR Programs including DEI and Employee Expectations(11.40) Sponsor: Attio CRM(14:19) Understanding Why Businesses Want To Cut HR(19:05) Embracing Business Model Changes as a Leader(23:00) Thinking Like an Investor(25:45) Employee-Employer Dynamics(26:52) Expectation Misalignment(29:24) Realigning Business Focus: Mission, Values, and HR Opportunities(33:23) Due Diligence in Career Moves and Hiring(36:51) Building Relationships With The CEO (45:43) Board Dynamics and CEO Feedback(49:39) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan discuss the news out of McKinsey this past week: generous packages for employees to opt out of their workforce. Is this a sign that there are no more golden tickets? Kelli and Nolan cover what this move says not only about McKinsey but about pedigreed qualifications more broadly. They also identify the key skillsets for this economy and the single most important thing you can do to make yourself recession-proof.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible, and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join ElevenLabs, Replicate, Modal, and more at https://bit.ly/attioturpentineKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(00:53) The Opt-Out Strategy: A Personal Perspective(01:52) Clarity and Transparency in Layoffs(03:00) Business Continuity During Layoffs(04:43) Rethinking the Value of Prestigious Institutions(08:25) Sponsor: Attio(09:22) Networking and Layoff-Proofing Your Career(10:39 )The Changing Landscape of Employment and Skills(13:35) Final Thoughts and Advice for Navigating the Job Market(14:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli chat all things “data from Carta” with Peter Walker, Head of Insights and Data Storytelling at Carta.They discuss Carta’s comprehensive report on startup compensation trends in H2 of 2023 influencing the flow of “dry powder” and the alarming increase in startup shutdowns. Peter proves VC’s will have less leeway in 2024 to throw good money after bad forecasting an even tougher year ahead.The team also discuss honesty in HR around equity structures, including liquidation preferences, and Peter offers advice for job candidates on evaluating startup offers with an investor's mindset. HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now.This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH PETER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINPeter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterjameswalker/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro: Peter Walker and Startup Compensation Trends(00:39) VC in 2023: Dry Powder and Capital Deployment(03:02) 2023's Investment Distribution: Early vs. Late Stage(07:43) Startup Shutdowns and Future Predictions(11.13) Sponsor Ad: Attio CRM(12:09) The M&A Market for Startups(15:05) The Impact of the Economic Shift on Startup Hiring and Industry Trends(21:59) Job Offers in Today's Market(22.30) Valuations and Equity in Job Negotiations(24:07) Key Questions Candidates Should Ask About Equity(25:34) Understanding Equity and Liquidation Preferences(27:59) Transparency in Startup Equity(30:17) Educational Resources and Support for Job Candidates(34:22) Options vs. RSUs in Late-Stage Companies(37:35) Startup Compensation(41:21) The Equity Dilemma: Exercising Options and Market Realities(42:32) Post termination Exercise Window(43:49) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan tackle the ongoing discussion around remote versus in-person work environments. They talk about the tradeoffs based on where you’re at in your career, the importance of questioning work environment structures, and encouraging listeners to consider what work environment aligns best with their current life phase.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. Learn more: www.turpentine.coSPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovichTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:17) Remote vs. In-Person Work Debate(01:16) Navigating the Remote Work Landscape(03:36) Work in the Office if You're Young in Your Career(06:50) Sponsor: Attio(07:46) Serendipitous Encounters(08:50) Reflecting on Work-Life Tradeoffs (10:33) Understanding the Seasons of Your Career(12:16) Work Culture(13:00) A Sudden Interruption(13:08) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Richard Ni joins Nolan and Kelli to discuss diving head first into a leadership role at Scale AI, a Series E AI startup that supplies data for AI models last valued at $7.3B.From software engineer turned Head of People, Richard talks about his experience heading into a role with zero experience but with an aptitude for people where he needed to be honest with himself about his limitations and how this became pivotal in his learning. He also talks about the importance of building trust with the CEO and the value of self-reflection in career decisions. The team also chat about being the bad guy in HR and building thick skin around unpopular company decisions.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to hrheretics.substack.com and never miss an episode or segment.--SPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics--KEEP UP WITH RICHARD, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINRichard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-ni/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/--]TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:56) From Software Engineer to HR Leader(03:10) The transition from Cruise to Scale AI(04:33) Leveraging Technical Background in HR and Recruiting(06:22) Embracing Leadership Roles Early in Career(11:17) The Power of Authenticity and Self-Awareness in Career Growth(12:36) Sponsor: Attio CRM(16:43) Building Trust and Navigating HR Challenges(20:26) Learning from Mistakes and Valuing External Advice(23:44) Mentoring(24:22) Being the 'Bad Guy' in HR(25:19) Finding Balance: The Importance of Safe Spaces and Ownership(26:34) The Unpopularity of HR Decisions and Its Impact(30:21) Learning from Mistakes and Self Reflection(35:07) Valuing Your Own Happiness(38:18) Creating a Culture of Openness and Trust(43:09) Insights on Early Stage Hiring and CEO Involvement(49:24) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this segment, Nolan and Kelli talk about how to be recession-proof and share tactical advice on network-building for a resilient career.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. SPONSOR: Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Preview (00:24) How to be Layoff-Proof (01:00) Investing in Your Network and Building a Recession-Proof Career (07:08) Practical Steps to Expand Your Professional Network (10:02) The Job Doesn't Just Happen (12:35) Sponsor: Attio (13:32) Make Time to Keep Your Network Warm (15:24) Expand Your Surface Area of Luck (17:02) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Nolan and Kelli investigate the “recruiting is like art and science” analogy with the Chief People Officer at Pendo, JR Rettig. JR digs into the decisions that led her to the CPO seat, working closely with Kelli. JR also covers the needs for businesses to budget for leaving C-Suite leaders and succession planning, the advantages of a hybrid internal and external recruiting method for execs, and how to maintain a high bar in talent acquisition.HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Hit subscribe now. hrheretics.substack.comSPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH JR, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJR: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenrettig/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:22) How JR and Kelli Became Work Wives(05:35) Yin and Yang in Professional Relationships(08:26) CPO Seat Then and Now(11:06) Learning Together: The Secret Sauce of Success(14:10) Sponsor - Attio(15:06) Pulling top talent in a Competitive Tech Landscape(19:24) The CEO's Role in Hiring: Ensuring Quality Over Quantity(24:19) Scaling the Recruiting Team(28:19) Mindset Shift from Recruiter to TA Leader(30:11) Maintaining High Quality in Recruitment Amidst Challenges(34:26) Balancing In-House and Agency Recruitment(41:49) Succession Planning and Building Trust within Teams(45:40) A Culture of Openness and Trust for Smooth Transitions(50:49) What Really Makes a Great Company?(57:10) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is all about getting promoted while playing the game of corporate politics, maintaining great relationships, and executing well in your role. In the second half, Kelli and Nolan discuss whether you can get promoted too fast.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com--SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics --TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:36) What Drives Promotion Obsession?(01:18) Get Your Foot in the Door, Then Climb the Corporate Ladder(02:13) The Game of Corporate Politics and Relationships(04:26) Get Used to the Politics…(05:21) …But Don’t Be Like a Slimy Car Salesman(06:21) Advocating for Yourself(09:10) Sponsor: Attio(10:05) The Double-Edged Sword of Rapid Promotion(12:38) Framework for Employee Scaling(14:51) The Dirty Secret of A Founder Not Doing Well(16:48) Wrap—GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and Kelli host A.J. Thomas of X, the moonshot factory from Alphabet. A.J for a discussion about failure, innovation, and embracing adversity. They also discuss the importance of scenario planning and asking all the questions upfront as a baseline for business optimization.While at X, A.J. embraces the notion that professional breakthrough requires personal breakthrough and her perspective on the relentless pursuit of truth, dispassionate assessment, and the power of curiosity provides invaluable insights into cultivating a mindset of innovation and resilience.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network.HR Heretics is brought to you by Attio the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(02:07) Unique Approach to Onboarding(10:09) Creative Hiring and Community Outreach(13:07) Change and Clarity(14:20) Sponsor: Attio(15:52) Scenario Planning(19:07) AJ's Journey to X, Google’s Moonshot Factory(29:56) Embracing Failure (33:00) The Unrecruiting Route - Why You Shouldn't Join(42:23) Dispassionate Assessment(44:46) The Relentless Pursuit of Truth(47:58) Authenticity(50:48) Being on the Front Line and the Quest for LearningKEEP UP WITH A.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINA.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelejeanthomas/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment delves into the intricacies of board member dynamics, specifically focusing on the removal of board members. Highlighted by the situation involving Michael Moritz's removal from Klarna's board, the discussion covers the complexities and nuances of board construction, including the distinction between preferred and independent board members, contract terms, and the impact of diversity.We need to demystify board operations — how they work, voting dynamics, and what they do! Open call for any listener (ex-CEO preferred) who can come dig into the gritty details of board dynamics in a future episode.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe. hrheretics.substack.com--SPONSOR: This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics --TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:22) The Complex World of Boards(03:53) Sponsor - Attio(04:48) Nolan and Kelli Share their Experiences and Expectations of Board Members(07:52) Picking Investors and Board Members(08:22) Board Construction(09:52) Diversity of Boards When A Company Matures(10:32) Stories From DoorDash(11:32) The Mysterious Notion of Board Votes and Equity Approval--GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Do companies need HR? Kelli and Nolan discuss a recent episode of All In (the #1 Business podcast in the world) which championed a utopian vision of dismantling HR inside companies, a conversation ignited by Sequoia’s Shaun Maguire exposing Google’s promotion policies. Kelli and Nolan discuss how we even got to this point of frustration, what’s worth decentralizing, and what would fall apart without HR. What do you think?Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: video episodes in your inbox: hrheretics.substack.com This episode is brought to you by Attio.Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Emergency Segment(00:49) Discussion on the All In Podcast's Take on HR(01:05) Shaun Maguire’s Tweet About Google(02:16) Debate on the Role and Future of HR(08:56) Sponsor: Attio(09:55) High Growth Companies Without HR?(11:37) HR & Business Outcomes(15:27) CTA—GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In today’s segment, Kelli and Nolan discusses Shopify's recent announcement of their ‘~Mastery’ dual track system, rewarding management and craftspeople equally.Kelli and Nolan also delve into topics such job leveling, advancement, and performance reviews and share personal stories from DoorDash and Yahoo.Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear some real talk - and tell them to subscribe: hrheretics.substack.com--SPONSOR:This episode is brought to you by Attio, the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics --TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction to Shopify's New Mastery Approach(01:09) Nolan and Kelli’s Initial Reactions(2:13) The Concept of Six-Month Work Sprints(05:43) IC Track and Manager Track(07:20) The DoorDash Story(08:42) Sponsor - Attio(09:39) The Evolution of Workforce and Organizational Structures(14:07) Shifting from Management to Mastery Roles--LINKS:Shopify Mastery: https://www.shopify.com/news/mastery--GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/--HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Kelli and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary go from 0 to 100 with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-founder of 37signals (Basecamp). The discussion covers 37signals’ radical policies and the “no politics at work” policy that got them canceled on Twitter after corporate America “went woke”. They also discuss the no managers rule that embraces more efficiency in a limited 40 hour work week and why overworking is a dated mindset. David also talks about his love of programming and the development of Ruby on Rails through his unique approach, and how it went on to impact other programmers.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Susbscribe now: Hrheretics.substack.comHR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co--This episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics--KEEP UP WITH DHH, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDHH: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-heinemeier-hansson-374b18221/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(05:00) Creating Ruby on Rails: DHH's Experience(10:00) Making Your Code Sing(12:31) The Role of Management(14:34) Sponsor - Attio(16:21) Code is Easy, People are Hard - Aligning and Developing Philosophies(20:50) Refining the Work Week and How to Get More Out of It(25:53) Having a Creative Space Within a 40-hour Work Week(31:01) Office Work vs Remote Work(34:27) Discussing Diversity and Choices in Companies(36:10) Wokeness and Surviving Cancel Culture(41:42) The Importance of Clarity and Identity(47:18) Radical Candor(50:54) The Misinterpretation of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion(56:58) Honest Conversations in the Workplace(59:50) DHH's Take on the HR Profession(01:05:35) Wrap—--LINKS:Radical Candor by Kim ScottDHH's Writing: https://world.hey.com/dhhEmployee Handbook: https://basecamp.com/handbook This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is sparked by the situation at Bolt, where employees who participated in an employee loan program were impacted by the company's valuation which was slashed by 97%. Kelli and Nolan discuss the post termination exercising window, the need for employees to be better educated about equity, and share personal experiences with options. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe hrheretics.substack.comSPONSOR:Attio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHeretics TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Bolt’s revaluation and how it affected employees(03:30) Get smart about equity(04:00) Carta’s Guides to Equity(05:00) Post termination exercise window(08:00) Sponsor: Attio(09:00) Why 90 days?(10:25) Nolan’s personal story with his options from DoorDash(13:00) Early employees get screwed(14:00) Request for crowdsourced google sheetLINKS:Carta Equity 101 - https://carta.com/equity/learn/Carta Equity 102 - https://carta.com/blog/personal-finance-102-table-stakes/GET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

We are so excited to bring you Kelli and Nolan’s interview with L.J. Brock, the CPO of Coinbase – a trailblazing company that has come under scrutiny in the press for their ‘no politics at work’ stance and talent density policies. L.J discusses how Coinbase continues to innovate to drive the company mission, how they ensure the company hiring standards stay at the highest level, how he works with Coinbase’s CEO Brian Armstrong to conceive of new policies, and how Coinbase sees career development.Share this with your friends, forward to your enemies. Subscribe to our Substack: https://hrheretics.substack.com/HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.coThis episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH L.J., NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINL.J.: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbrock/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview and Intro(02:34) Coinbase's Controversial No Politics at Work Policy(07:29) The Aftermath of the No Politics Policy(11:25) Running Headfirst Into Your Death Moment(13:53) Talent Evaluation: Designing an Interview Process That Gives A Realistic Preview(15:46) Sponsor - Attio(17:53) Coinbase's Process of Implementing Radical Changes(24:13) Making Two-Way Door and One-Way Door Decisions(25:27) On Transparency and the Challenges of Innovating and Implementing Change(27:51) Sprint Concept(29:25) How Talent Density Came to Be at Coinbase(35:10) The Impact of Hiring Processes on Talent Density(36:57) Challenges of Implementing Real-Time Feedback(43:00) Doing Work Trials(45:47) Being More Equitable and Diverse(48:46) Moving to Single Pay Target and Stock Grants(55:41) Grooming and Developing More CPOs and HR Leaders(59:52) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church talk with Elizabeth Patterson, Partner (People & Talent) at Sapphire Ventures. The conversation is all about how to find the best CPO roles, how VC talent partners actually work, and what it's like engaging with portfolio companies and execs. Lots of insider info. Elizabeth manages Sapphire Venture’s human capital network, including the Sapphire Fellows program.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.coThis episode is brought to you by AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsKEEP UP WITH ELIZABETH,NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN- Elizabeth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabetharnsdorfpatterson/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(03:17) Stories(08:08) Navigating the Venture Capital World(11:00) The Gotchas and Ahas of Finding the Best Opportunity into Venture Capital(13:50) How Success is Measured(16:00) Sponsor - Attio(17:11) How to Find the Best CPO Roles(22:56) The Relationship Between Talent Partners and Executive Recruiters(27:24) Correlating the Business with Cultural Fit and Vibe in Recruitment(31:28) Back Channels in Recruitment(35:49) Executive Compensation on Recruitment (40:18) How Photographic Memory Helps in Recruitment(45:53) Elizabeth's Favorite Interview Question(48:02) Qualities of a Great Leader This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode, Nolan and special guest co-host Colleen McCreary delve into diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) with Mita Mallick of Carta. Mita is the Head of Inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta and the author of Reimagine Inclusion. They discuss the benefits of cross-cultural marketing, how DEI roles aren't set up for success in tech companies, inclusion as a business driver, and successful career succession planning.Want more Colleen? Check out her DEI Roundtable episode here (https://hrheretics.substack.com/p/colleen-mccreary-on-layoffs-m-and-7cb) and our 3rd ever episode interviewing Colleen about her career ups and downs (https://hrheretics.substack.com?utm_source=navbar&utm_medium=web&r=39tmjr)SPONSOR: AttioAttio is the next generation of CRM. It’s powerful, flexible and easily configures to the unique way your startup runs, whatever your go-to-market motion. The next era deserves a better CRM. Join OpenAI, Replicate, ElevenLabs and more at https://bit.ly/AttioHRHereticsWe highly recommend you subscribe to HR Brew: a free daily newsletter for people leaders and operators https://bit.ly/hrbrewTIMESTAMPS:* (00:00) Introduction * (01:09) Welcome to HR Heretics* (01:31) Intro to Mita Malik* (02:56) Shout Out to HR Brew https://bit.ly/hrbrew* (04:00) Mita's Book Reimagine Inclusion* (05:42) Mita's Career in DEI* (08:52) The Importance of Inclusion in Business* (14:37) Sponsor: Attio* (15:40) Measuring Success of Inclusion* (20:54) The Role of Leadership in Diversity* (28:55) The Myth of Meritocracy* (30:02) Realities of Career Progression* (31:36) Talent Management* (34:59) The Importance of Honest Feedback* (38:12) The Role of Inclusion in Competitive Advantage* (49:05) The Impact of Generational Shifts on Workplace Norms* (49:55) WrapLINKS: Mita Mallick’s book Reimagine Inclusion: Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your WorkplaceKEEP UP WITH MITA, COLLEEN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINMita: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mita-mallick-2b165822/Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is sparked by a recent viral video of a layoff recorded by an employee. Kelli and Nolan cover the recent layoffs at Google and Cloudflare, how treatment of an employee during the layoff impacts both the employee and employer, and how companies should handle parting ways with an employee in 2024. Forward this to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to subscribe: https://hrheretics.substack.com/.Timestamps:(00:00) Special segment alert(00:17) January is the biggest month in the last 20 years for layoffs in tech(01:10) Kelli's take(02:41) Bad behavior, bad policies and the need for big tech companies to be called out for doing rolling layoffs(04:32) Google layoffs(05:20) Cloudflare employee records her layoff(06:10) The litmus test of being part of a team (not just HR teams)(07:03) When CEOs think they can get away with bad behavior since other companies do it(08:05) What happens when you don't treat employees in good faith(10:05) Accountability checks on companies during layoffs(11:20) Back to the golden rule(11:41) Important reminder for employersGET IN TOUCH WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/HR Heretics is a podcast from the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Brigette McInnis-Day, CPO of UIPath — a people leader at the biggest company we’ve had repped on the podcast to date.Timestamps and the transcript of our episode with Brigette are below. We love feedback! Subscribe to our substack to get VIDEO episodes in your inbox. You can also always listen to the podcast on Apple & Spotify.----We highly recommend you subscribe to HR Brew: a free daily newsletter for people leaders and operators https://bit.ly/hrbrew----KEEP UP WITH BRIGETTE, KELLI, + NOLANBrigette McInnis-Day: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brigettemcinnisday/Kelli Dragovich: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan Church: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/----TIMESTAMPS* (00:00) Intro * (02:38) Shout Out to HR Brew https://bit.ly/hrbrew* (04:07) The Looker Acquisition by Google* (05:04) The Role of HR in M&A* (14:12) The UiPath Team Construction* (21:11) Building a Company with the Right HR Toolkit* (21:35) The Importance of Prioritizing in a High-Growth Company* (24:56) Pay Transparency and Pay Equity* (33:08) The Future of Comp* (38:41) Negotiating* (41:56) Learning from Failures in HR* (47:51) The Strategy of Hiring a SuccessorHR Heretics is a part of Turpentine podcast network. Learn more at www.turpentine.co This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

This segment is dedicated to covering what rising mid-career HR professionals really want to know. Janelle Lopez, an incredible HR professional, is brought in to interview us about her next move. Janelle, who worked at Yahoo and SurveyMonkey, has 12 years of transformative experiences under her belt, yet finds herself faced with biases and apprehensions from CEOs and founders reluctant to hire a 'number two'. Kelli and Nolan offer advice about taking control of the narrative during the hiring process and leaning into work trials. Forward our substack to any HR Pro who needs to hear it - and tell them to Subscribe: https://hrheretics.substack.comTIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro & Janelle’s background(01:46) What should Janelle’s next steps be?(02:07) The Debate: Number One or Number Two Role?(07:45) Overcoming Biases and vhallenges during the search(08:14) The reframe: loyalty and learning(15:45) Imposter syndrome(17:02) Work TrialsGET IN TOUCH WITH JANELLE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJanelle:https://www.linkedin.com/in/janelle-lopez-29997a4/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

The only reason we do interviews is because we’ve done them in the past. Hear Nolan and Kelli discuss Linear’s recent announcement that they’re moving from interviews to work trials for all candidates (https://twitter.com/linear/status/1735019663875264958)Also discussed is Nolan’s experience with a failed interview policy from his time at Google.Let us know what you think by sending us a message on LinkedIn, sharing your thoughts in the comments. Our substack is new and we’re excited about this new way to watch the podcast, so we’d appreciate you subscribing, sharing and forwarding this to anyone you think would love it.This episode is brought to you by Continuum. Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN- Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/- Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/rjJKJsGxi3r4iX7Qh5uo This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with Katelin Holloway, founding partner at VC firm 776 which she started with Alexis Ohanian. Holloway, the former VP of People at Reddit, shares insights from her experience both in HR and breaking into venture. Katelin shares a ton of practical advice - and tactics - for HR leaders who want to start investing or break into VC, explaining how to develop a founder-focussed approach, the benefits of advising relationships, and the need to deliver value.We highly recommend subscribing to free newsletter HR Brew: https://bit.ly/hrbrew–KEEP UP WITH KATELIN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINKatelin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelinholloway/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–In addition to being a partner at a VC firm, Katelin hosts the excellent podcast All Hands which we recommend: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/all-hands/id1515795663–TIMESTAMPS:|(00:00) Preview(00:46) Intro(04:24) Waking up one day in the boardroom: Katelin's career journey in HR(11:50) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum(13:48) On meeting Alexis Ohanian and the evolution of their relationship(19:03) Getting more people leaders in venture(22:33) The fork in the road: how to transition out successfully from an organization(27:45) Why aren't there a lot of HR people working in venture?(37:32) Katelin's gripes with the VC operating system, and how it’s changing(42:20) Building an investor reputation and brand starts with building a good relationship with founders(49:27) Tactics: How to become an investor(56:22) Past experiences that helped Katelin get to where she is now(58:50) Wrap✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

In this episode of HR Heretics, we have a conversation with Matt Oberhardt, partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), about the complexities of recruiting executives and finding talent. Matt explains the importance of precision in referencing and maintaining professionalism in recruitment processes. We also cover specific advice for founders, the transition of veterans into start-ups, and dealing with the 2024 macro and job market. Find the best fractional execs at Continuum: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co -- SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum ✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics ✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9 Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com – KEEP UP WITH MATT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Matt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattoberhardt/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ – LINKS: Andreessen Horowitz Exec Hiring Guide: https://a16z.com/executive-hiring/ – TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (03:21) Matt's Role at a16z and Approach in Talent Assessment (06:10) Balancing External and Internal Roles (07:35) Measuring Success in Talent Assessment (09:10) The MOC Process in Executive Hiring (15:02) Assessing Fit in Executive Hiring (18:39) Effective Reference Processing (22:25) Support our sponsors: Lattice | Continuum (24:35) Dealing with Negative References (26:48) The Importance of Nuance in Hiring (27:46) The Concept of Personal Growth in Candidates (28:43) Reengaging with Executives and Understanding Their Growth (29:56) The Challenge of Making Decisions as a Founder (37:44) The Role of Veterans in Startups (44:16) The Impact of Market Shifts on Hiring (46:49) The Challenge of Retaining Top Talent (50:55) The Value of Tough Feedback in Interviews This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Jen Trzepacz, or JT as she's widely known, is a Silicon Valley vet (Yahoo, EA, Salesforce, Living Social) and currently the CPO of SymphonyAI. JT joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to talk about how HR needs to be expertly aligned with the business bottom line, how to do transparency around compensation well, how to recruit the best talent, navigating complicated CEO relationships, and takes us on a trip down memory lane for her biggest F-ups.HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–KEEP UP WITH JT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINJT: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jetrzepacz/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview and Intro(04:33) Jen's biggest F-ups in her career(07:35) The merit files of Yahoo and the ripple effects(15:12) JT's thoughts on comp transparency today(20:09) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum(21:54) Making hard trade offs and understanding competitive differentiation(41:10) When the relationship between a CEO and CPO doesn't work(47:01) JT's best hire and her secret weapon in the candidate experience(51:49) JT's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates(55:46) Chief people officers are going to have to deal with AI This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Friends of the podcast and experienced CPOs Colleen McCreary (CreditKarma, Zynga, Twilio, EA) and David Hanrahan (Flare, formerly EventBrite, Zendesk) join hosts Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for this roundtable discussion of where the puck is going for DEI in 2024. They offer their takes on the progress made over the years, the current camps in this debate propelled by the recent capitol hill hearings and Harvard controversy, and the necessity of founders and companies to better understand their own priorities and define their position on DEI.Check out our individual episodes with both Colleen and David who have both been former guests on the show!Colleen McCreary on Layoffs, M&A, and Recruiting the Best Talent - https://open.spotify.com/episode/0WuLzUYeDaPIsOTbtTCZFD?si=aLgdLcjTR0eK6wBCv6KrGwDavid Hanrahan on High Performance, Comp Strategy, Performance Cycles, and New Norms - https://open.spotify.com/episode/46H0HSchsnl52DaP9aPsrG?si=jTZ9tTjzR36cNsdqPkjrAQHR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co–SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINColleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer/David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–LINKS:Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/harvard-dei-interview-question-best-avoided-roxanne-bras-petraeus-wzope/Joelle Emerson’s piece: https://fortune.com/2024/01/04/anti-dei-movement-fringe-mainstream-corporate-america-diversity-equity-inclusion-meaning-joelle-emerson/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview and Intro(01:16) The current facts about DEI(04:50) The inability to have a real dialogue about what practices work and what practices matter(06:59) Current conversations move people out of the conversation on DEI to the detriment of an effort on diversity(09:07) The prerequisites of doing DEI the right way(11:08) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company(14:19) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum(16:05) The impossibility of measuring belonging in a company (continued)(17:57) Allocating resources and improving a company's DEI efforts and programs(31:50) Where do we see the puck going with DEI in the future?(41:05) When CPOs can't be everything for everybody and the importance of going back to who you are, your values and your culture(46:22) DEI in 2024 is going to be more of an expectation of leadership as opposed to standalone efforts This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Q Hamirani, the Chief People Officer at Paper, joins Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church to discuss navigating the CPO seat under immense pressure, the real deal behind Airbnb's remote work policy, how design thinking helps solve people problems, and how the people function should not be left behind by the AI revolution. They also touch on great stories and tactical insights from Q's time as AirBnB s and his current CPO role at edtech company Paper (https://paper.co/).Learn more about Q's AI community for people leaders: https://www.thepeoplegpt.com/HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–KEEP UP WITH Q, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINQ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamirani/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–TIMESTAMPS:00:00) Preview(01:30) Q's wild background(07:40) How the engineer in Q handled the rejection going into HR(09:27) Having a business background(11:37) Balancing the dynamics of design thinking and love for iteration(13:07) Transitioning from Airbnb to Paper(17:27) On avoiding burnout while building your team(19:47) How Airbnb handled layoffs(23:53) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum(25:37) The Digital Nomad program(31:05) What would Q change in terms of handling comp given the circumstances of today's market?(33:50) The future of work debate with AI(36:38) Getting people back in the office and maintaining morale(41:51) How do you react when things don't go your way?(48:21) AI and the direction of People Ops and recruiting(57:10) Q's favorite interview question(58:10) Q's best hire and why This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

At scaling companies. navigating parting ways with an executive requires finesse, strategic insights, and insider experience. Run The Numbers podcast invited Kelli and Nolan to break down every facet, lever, and little known facts behind successfully exiting execs. Its a great conversation - Kelli and Nolan have seen it all and break down termination packages, terms like double trigger and garden leave, exec pay parity, and how to fire CEOs. Definitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbersHR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Run The NumbersDefinitely check out Run The Numbers! Listen wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers–KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, KELLI , and CJNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(02:08) Exec Departures(03:47) How the Decision-Making Process Happens in Executive Departures(04:49) The Continuum of Executive Departures(05:57) The Ideal Scenario(06:42) The Challenges of Replacing Executives(09:03) The Compensation Aspect of Executive Departures(10:59) The Controversy Around Executive Severance Packages(16:06) The Biggest Golden Parachute(22:11) The Concept of Garden Leave(23:40) Understanding Single Trigger vs Double Trigger Clauses(25:41) Understanding the Double Trigger(26:03) Kelli's Experience with Double Trigger at Looker(27:12) Sponsors: Lattice | Continuum(28:57) Common Positions to Get Axed(29:30) The Importance of Parity Among Executives(31:30) The Role of Employment Agreements(39:22) The Process of Firing a CEO(45:45) How to Handle Being Fired as an Executive This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Dan Portillo is the founder and GP of The General Partnership, a fund that prioritizes talent in a network-based approach. Formerly he was early-Mozilla and then went on to Greylock where he carved out a role as a talent partner. Dan talks to Nolan and Kelli about how VC and VC talent partners operate, an influential world that most people in the venture and startup ecosystem don't actually know that much about. They also talk about backchannels, going from HR leadership roles to finding success as an advisor, and the necessary skill of framing new ideas as experiments. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–RECOMMENDED PODCAST:Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers–KEEP UP WITH DAN, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINDan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielportillo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(02:40) Dan talks about Mozilla, being the 20th employee, his role and how the became the VP of Talent(06:21) On scaling Mozilla: handling both the HR side and recruiting side(10:00) Dan's take on creating a leveling structure and performance reviews(13:00) Dan talks about his journey building talent at Greylock(17:05) Dan's experience working with the founders Greylock has backed(19:35) Sponsor - Lattice | Continuum(21:20) Dan's "Aha!" moments with executive hiring and with how the industry shifted from 2011 to 2018(25:55) Dan's transition from Greylock to Sweat Equity Ventures (now The General Partnership)(34:30) Shifting from Talent to VC and making the portfolio companies better(38:40) Should I get into a VC talent partner role?(41:00) How to get into advising and pitfalls to be careful of(43:32) When does a founder need an advisor?(44:55) Dan's expectations expecting going into 2024 and how he is positioning the fund and advising founders(47:30) Dan's best hire and why(50:25) Dan's secret for finding undiscovered talent(52:30) The power of back channels and executive hiring(55:00) Seven degrees from Dan PortilloLINKS:https://www.thegp.com/builders/daniel-portillo This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Kelli and Nolan discuss their different perspectives on the effectiveness of DEI initiatives and the temperature in tech businesses right now.–Feedback is welcome - send a note to Kelli and Nolan on LI to let us know what you think.Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.joincontinuum.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Cara Brennan Allamano is the Chief People Officer at Lattice and previously at Udemy, Pinterest, and Adobe. Nolan and Kelli talk to Cara about the intricacies of building relationships with CEOs, different career paths for people leadership, undergoing layoffs with dignity, and the importance of saying "no" when necessary for the health of the organization. HR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrhereticsHigh performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. www.Joincontinuum.com–RECOMMENDED PODCAST:Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers–KEEP UP WITH CARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINCara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carabrennan/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Episode Preview(03:16) Being a people officer but having low tolerance for pain(05:40) On getting excited about helping other people become successful(06:55) The meta thing of careers according to Cara(10:58) How do you get to that point where you can say no to your CEO?(13:24) Sponsors - Lattice | Continuum(14:52) How do you pick the right CEO to work with?(17:17) On building a CPO career: Shiny object syndrome and focusing on the relationship with the CEO(22:36) The paradox of choice(30:40) On leaders coming outside of HR into HR(37:34) Cara's insight on rolling layoffs(41:46) Cara's biggest screw up in her career(45:42) What does it look like to be an effective people team?(46:56) All anybody wants is to be heard and respected(50:50) On the biggest things to build successors in Lattice (and the idea of meritocracy)(53:59) Cara's best hire(54:40) Cara's favorite interview question that gets the best signal on candidates This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Brett Queener is a partner at Bonfire Ventures, with a background extending to nearly every function as an operator at Salesforce, Smart Recruiters, and more. Brett is well-versed in the mechanics of early-stage companies and this conversation covers the death rate of startups, the point of board meetings, getting people to work outrageously hard for you, and more.Kelli and Nolan’s segment this week (54:00-01:09:30) discusses Jack Dorsey’s decision to eliminate PIPs and expands into a broader discussion of the right sized management layer, span of control, performance review systems and how businesses can change their approach towards feedback and evaluationsHR Heretics is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co--SPONSORS: Metaview | Continuum | Lattice✅ Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Robinhood, Quora, and Replit say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself for free on your first 5 interviews: https://www.metaview.ai/1000✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics–RECOMMENDED PODCAST:Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers–KEEP UP WITH BRETT, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINBrett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–LINKS:Brett Queener’s exceptional (free) Guides and templates: https://www.bonfirevc.com/team/brett-queener–TIMESTAMPS:00:00) Preview(04:31) Insights on what's in store for investors, founders, and execs for 2024(09:06) Making that pivot in 2024(12:32) The economics of how a VC works(16:34) Sponsor - Continuum | Metaview(19:20 There's nothing that replaces the soul of a founder(23:11) On talent planning at the executive level(29:39) Sponsor - Lattice(30:50) Signs that how a company has the right people leader(35:50) Does Brett think HR leaders, founders, companies have gone a little soft?(41:51) How to get people to love working hard and appreciate it and the negative connotations of the 40-hour work-week(46:21) On the importance of the relationship between the CHRO and the founder for company health(50:20) Brett's best hire who has transformed a company(52:49) Brett's favorite interview question that gives the best signal on candidates?(54:00) Kelli & Nolan's segment on PIPs, Performance Reviews, and Managers vs ICs This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

Melanie Naranjo is the VP, People at Ethena and an insightful writer at the forefront of HR thought leadership. In this episode, Melanie, Kelli and Nolan dig into the current sentiment in HR, why the bar is set lower than it should be, why you should abandon PIPs, instilling a culture of feedback among execs, and why EQ isn’t the most important skill to develop in a people leader. If you’re looking for HR software that drives performance, check out Lattice https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics–SPONSORS: Lattice | Continuum✅ Discover HR software that drives performance with Lattice: https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics High performance and great culture should never be at odds; they’re better together. With Lattice People Management Platform, companies efficiently run people programs that create enviable cultures where employees want to do their best work. Serving 1000s of customers of all sizes. Learn why companies from Slack to the LA Dodgers choose Lattice. https://www.lattice.com/hrheretics✅ Hire Fractional Executives with Continuum using this link: https://bit.ly/40hlRa9Have you ever had a negative experience hiring executives? Continuum connects executives and senior operators to venture-backed tech companies for fractional and full-time roles. You can post any executive-level role to Continuum’s marketplace and search through our database of world-class, vetted leaders. There is no hidden cost, you only pay the person you hire. And you can cancel at any time. Joincontinuum.com–RECOMMENDED PODCAST:Check out Run The Numbers! Kelli and Nolan were guests on the most recent episode: a deep dive into FIRING CEOs and EXECS. This one's hilarious. Listen here, wherever you get your podcasts: https://link.chtbl.com/runthenumbers–KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDINMelanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/–LINKS:The Cost of Tolerating Underperformance: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cost-tolerating-underperformance-overlooking-your-high-naranjo/Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/–TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Preview(00:43) Intro(02:40) Melanie's Ethena Journey(05:17) Is it fun being in the HR tech space?(06:19) Biggest learnings for HR leaders(12:41) Sponsors - Lattice | Continuum(14:24) Is High EQ the most important quality in a people leader?(16:50) Emotional maturity and logical problem solving(20:04) Having support and guidance and intentionality(27:07) Ego, politics and feedback(29:00) On meritocracies in tech(32:48) On handling performance issues(35:00) Insights on writing "The cost of tolerating underperformance — and overlooking your high performers" - see links(37:47) Using or abandoning Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs)(40:26) Ethena's selling points(41:45) Most people suck at giving feedback(43:08) On growing personal and employer brand awareness on LinkedIn(46:06) When a CEO and CHRO works together(48:23) How to find the CEO and leadership team to partner with(51:20) Assessing for intellectual nimbleness during an interview(53:16) Why Melanie doesn't backchannel for non-execs(55:43) The best interview question(56:40) Melanie's best hire(57:44) Advice for people leaders going into 2024 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com