Future Christian

Pastors and church leaders often face the pressure to "perform," whether that means always appearing as spiritually confident, emotionally intact, or even just always showing up as the idealized version of themselves. In our age of authenticity, how can pastors and church leaders balance the need to "perform" in some capacity while also being true to themselves? In this conversation with Paul Romig-Leavitt and Brian Davis, two veteran worship leaders who know what it's like to "put on a show" for thousands of people at a time, we talk about handling the pressures and how to lead in a healthy and sustainable manner. Brian has been leading worship in the Denver-metro area for the last 25 years and has built relationships with dozens of churches all over the city. Authenticity and empathy have been hallmarks of Brian’s leadership, and his intention is to use these attributes to coach other worship leaders and inspire greater creativity and deeper spiritual practice in the local church. Brian has three daughters, and he and his wife, Jess, live in Lakewood, CO. He also serves part-time as the Worship Arts Director at New Denver Church. Paul has been a worship leader and pastor in the greater Denver area since 2001 working in full-time positions in churches such as Crossroads Community Church in Parker, The Refuge in Broomfield, and Restoration Church in Denver. Along with working as a guest worship leader in many other churches in Colorado, Paul also works with the Aspen Institute in Aspen CO as the Production Manager for the Aspen Ideas Festival as well as a director with the Denver video production company Colorado Arts Productions. Paul is the Co-author of “Cue-Lines,” a collection of plays and sketches he co-wrote with Greg Stier for the Dare 2 Share conferences. He lives in Broomfield CO with his wife and two daughters. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Despite efforts to include and make space for diversity, churches often do the opposite through their language, spaces, and architecture. In this conversation, Kimmothy Cole talks about what it means to create spaces where all are included, highlights the importance of knowing your community, and how pastors and church leaders can use her book in their churches. Kimmothy Cole is a community artist working with ritual and gathering as tools for radical change. Their work prioritizes the creation of shared culture through a decolonizing lens. Cole is an accomplished visual, musical and performance artist, bringing immersive experiences into mundane spaces. Their performance and ritual work has been featured in festivals, events and venues across the US. They have certificates in Embodied Healing and Movement Chaplaincy, and their first Book A Liturgy for All Bodies: New Words for a New World available from Cyclical Publishing. Support Kimmothy at https://www.patreon.com/TheRootedRitual The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

When it comes to church growth and revitalization, church governance isn't a topic that often comes to the forefront. Yet, according to Sean Bublitz, poor church governance is often a significant factor in stuck, declining churches. In this conversation, we talk about why pastors and church leaders should pay more attention to church governance, why when it comes to church boards bigger isn't better, and why voting should happen less often - not more. If you've ever felt like you're running into a brick wall with your organizational structures, you're going to want to listen to this. Sean Bublitz has spent time over the past two decades at Community Christian Church (Naperville, IL) and Granger Community Church (Granger, IN) serving in weekend service, arts, and senior leadership roles. For the past 5 years, he has served as a ministry consultant and on the leadership team at The Unstuck Group. Sean lives with his wife and 5 kids in the South Bend, IN area. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

The work of a good pastor or church leader, according to pastor and church planter Aurelia Davila Pratt, is to make space - to be a spacemaker. And while she understand that there are many who have chosen to leave church for sake of their own healing, she also believes that it is essential that we make space for others, and most importantly, for the Spirit. In this conversation, we talk about what it means to make space for the Spirit, for real critique, and for others to heal and re-imagine. Aurelia Dávila Pratt (MDiv, LMSW) is the lead pastor of Peace of Christ Church, a radically loving community in Round Rock, Texas. Named by Sojourners as one of “Ten Christian Women Shaping the Church in 2022”, Aurelia is also the author of A Brown Girl’s Epiphany: Reclaim Your Intuition and Step into Your Power and the co-host of the Nuance Tea Podcast. She is also a licensed master of social work, who currently serves as chair of the Board of Advocates at the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. She regularly contributes articles for Progressing Spirit, Alliance of Baptists, and Good Faith Media. Find her on Instagram @revaureliajoy where she is reimagining faith and theology via spoken and written word. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Music isn't the main point in church, says singer and songwriter Spencer LaJoye, but churches need to decide what is. LaJoye joins the pod to talk about how music can be used for good in a church, and when it it's not. Spencer also shares advice for churches trying to become more inclusive, and what the one thing is they would change about music in church spaces. Spencer LaJoye is a folk/pop singer songwriter, violinist, and vocal loop artist in Boston, MA, who believes everyone is made of the good stuff. A 2021 Kerrville New Folk Songwriting Competition winner, LaJoye (luh-JOY) makes music to tell the truth and return to their body as a queer person in recovery from American Christian evangelicalism. Delivering Broadway-esque melodies accompanied by a weathered dreadnought, their performances are equal parts confident quirk and elegant storytelling. The easiest way to support Spencer and stay connected is to join their community on Patreon. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

So your church is struggling and maintaining an aging building is no longer feasible. What do you do next? Pastor Dennis Sanders shares about his own church's experience navigating this difficult decision. Dennis shares how the conversation started, what was the tipping point, liturgies for leaving, and what they plan to do with the proceeds. Through it all, Dennis shares why keeps him hopeful for his church and why they still want to try. A native of Flint, Michigan, Dennis is an ordained minister in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). He received his bachelor's in journalism from Michigan State University and his master's of divinity from Luther Seminary. He’s been a communications professional working for various nonprofits for over 20 years. From 2008 until 2013 he was the Associate Pastor at First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Minneapolis. Since 2013, he's been the Pastor at First Christian Church of St. Paul in Roseville, MN . He lives in Minneapolis with his husband, Daniel. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Church planting is the R & D arm of denominations, says pastor and church planter Jonah Overton. Having launched a new church, Jonah shares about the story of Zoa MKE Church and key aspects along the starting process. They also emphasize that success is not a reflection on a leader's faithfulness, encourage pastors and leaders to have prophetic imagination, and understand that something not working doesn't mean it's a failure. Rev. Jonah P. Overton (they/them) is a community organizer, creator of the podcasts “Jonah & the Peacock” and “Christian Queeries,” and the lead pastor of Zao MKE Church in Milwaukee, WI. As a young queer and trans clergy person, Jonah has been called into ministry to build the church as queer space and organize communities and churches towards justice and liberation. tiktok & instagram: @rev_jonah, @zaomke The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

How does one lead faithfully in a time of collapse? Michael Chan joins the pod to talk about an article he co-wrote with Dwight Zscheile. In this conversation, we talk about what inspired the article, the biblical precedent from the prophet Jeremiah on leading through collapse and dealing with denial, and knowing what are the right questions to ask. Chan also reminds church leaders that denominational collapse is not that same as the failure of the gospel. Dr. Michael Chan is executive director for faith and learning at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota. Prior to that, he was associate professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn. He joined Luther Seminary after completing his Ph.D. at Emory University and a year of research and teaching at the University of Helsinki. He is a graduate of Luther Seminary (M.A. in biblical theology) and Pacific Lutheran University (B.A. in elementary education). As the executive director for faith and learning, Dr. Chan directs the Lorentzsen Center for Faith and Work and the Dovre Center for Faith and Learning, guides Concordia’s interfaith relationships, and oversees the work of Campus Ministry. Read the article we discussed here: The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In many mainline church contexts, pastors and leaders often spend countless hours wishing things were different and worrying about what's next. Anglican Priest, author, and runner Martha Tatarnic proposes a different way, encouraging pastors and leaders to embrace "ultrarealism," a running philosophy that encourages one to focus on what's actually happening and embrace it. In our conversation, we talk about why ultrarealism isn't about giving up, why an ultrareal church can't be anything other than an anti-Designer community, and what the big risk is in an ultrareal church. Martha Tatarnic is the lead priest of St. George’s, a thriving downtown Anglican church in St. Catharines Ontario. Martha writes a regular blog for the Anglican Church of Canada, which can be found at medium.com. She is the author of The Living Diet: A Christian Journey to Joyful Eating, an exploration of our relationship with food and our body through a Christian perspective and also her second book, Why Gather? The Hope and Promise of the Church. Find out more about her at https://marthatatarnic.ca The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Having served in local churches his entire life, Jonathan Foster had a startling realization: most Christians don't love themselves. Seeing so many Christians struggling beneath the weight of shame and the assumption that God didn't like them any more than they liked himself, Foster believed there had to be a better way. In this podcast, we talk about Foster's journey led him down a path of deconstruction, but also reconstruction, as he realized that our only hope is love. Jonathan Foster is an award-winning and amazon best-selling author. He recently received his doctorate through NorthWind Seminary. The author of two books, The Reconstuctionists and his dissertation turned book Theology of Consent: Mimetic Theory in an Open and Relational Universe. He's the founder of lovehaiti.org, has three children, and one life-long partner. You can find out more about him at jonathanfosteronline.com. Social handles twitter: jonathan_foster podcast: jonathan_foster patreon: jonathan_foster The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Forged in the furnace of U.S. segregation, the Black Church is the pillar of African American communities across the country. As such, it has a powerful testimony and incredible lessons that can be shared still today. Author and leader Freda Sampson joins the pod to talk about the history of the Black Church, what distinguishes Black Churches from other protestant churches, and what are the biggest challenges facing Black Churches today. Freda G. Sampson is an advocate for equity, justice and radical inclusion. She is entrepreneur, creative, and author. Her passion stems from growing up and observing her father, Rev. Dr. Frederick G. Sampson, II, a civil rights leader and pastor, fight for equality for all people. Witnessing that love in action has formed the direction of her personal and professional journey. A diversity and inclusion professional, Freda provides consulting, training and facilitation services to corporations, governmental agencies and organizations throughout Michigan and Canada on diversity, inclusion, and cultural competency. Find more books on the MSU Bias Busters series here: The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Many of the things we think we know about religion and politics in America simply aren't true, says Ryan Burge, and he has the data to back it up. As a professor, researcher, and pastor Ryan Burge has spent years exploring and now debunking many common myths around Abortion, Born-again experiences, and the so-called "Nones." In this episode, we talk about some of the myths and what church leaders should understand instead about American culture. Ryan P. Burge is an assistant professor of political science at Eastern Illinois University. Author of numerous journal articles, he is the cofounder of and a frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a general audience. Burge is a pastor in the American Baptist Church and is the author of The Nones and 20 Myths about Religion and Politics in America The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Between the historical baggage of colonialist mission endeavors of the past and the consumer-oriented "selfie mission" focus of present day, many churches and church leaders find themselves at a loss when trying to figure out how practice honest and authentic mission in the way of Jesus. Author and veteran missionary Hunter Farrell joins the pod to talk about the what lessons can be learned from past mistakes, opportunities for companionship and mutual mission in the present, and ideas for pastors and churches trying to plan mission trips. Hunter Farrell serves as the Director of the World Mission Initiative of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, having served 30 years as a Presbyterian mission co-worker in Democratic Republic of Congo and Peru, Area Coordinator and Director of World Mission for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Farrell earned his doctorate in cultural anthropology at the Pontifical Catholic University in Perú, and his M. Div. in Cross-Cultural Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary. Farrell is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and married to Ruth Brand Farrell with whom he raised three children, now grown. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In these days of increasing political polarization and hyper-partisanship in church, Brian Kaylor joins the show to talk about why he doesn't think pastors should be partisan, how it is possible to be a bi-partisan church, and how pastors and church leaders can foster health political conversations. Brian also shares why churchgoers are more likely to change churches than change their politics and encourages pastors to focus on what unites people other than their politics. Brian is an writer and expert on issues of religion, politics, and communication. He also hosts the award-winning podcast “Baptist Without An Adjective.” In addition to his work as Editor & President of Word&Way, his writings have been published by CNN, Houston Chronicle, Kansas City Star, Washington Post, and many other outlets. He is also the author of four books on religion and politics. Brian has a Ph.D. and an M.A. in Communication from the University of Missouri, and a B.A. in Communication and Christian Ministry from Southwest Baptist University. He previously served as Associate Director of Churchnet, Assistant Professor of Communication Studies at James Madison University, Contributing Editor for Ethics Daily, and Pastor of Union Mound Baptist Church in Elkland, Missouri. He currently serves as chair of both the Communication Advisory Committee and the Resolutions Committee for the Baptist World Alliance. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Year after year, thousands of churches across America are closing. Churches that were once the heart and soul of their communities are now shrinking both in size and influence, leading author and filmmaker Thom Schultz to try to figure out why. The creator of the film, When God Left the Building, Thom joins the pod to talk about the spiritual malaise, refusal to change, and an irrelevance to modern life that doom so many churches. Thom also shares some signs of life and hope for fresh expressions of church and ministry. Thom Schultz is an author, filmmaker, publisher and innovator in resources for churches. He is the director of the documentary feature film “When God Left the Building.” He’s the co-author, along with his wife Joani, of many books, including Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore, The One Thing, and Don’t Just Teach . . . Reach. And his blog is called Holy Soup. Thom founded the international multimedia company Group Publishing in 1974, and continues to serve as its president. Group publishes books, Bibles and educational resources for churches and Christians around the world. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In these times of contentious struggles over important issues, how can we fight like Jesus? Author and peacemaker Jason Porterfield joins the show to talk about fighting with means that are consistent with the way of peace, the importance of speaking truth to power but listening with humility, and how to fight like Jesus in an age of Christian Nationalism. Jason also shares his passion for cultivating God’s shalom wherever it is painfully absent and helping churches embrace their peacemaking vocation. Jason Porterfield was a founding member of the Servants team in Vancouver, started a new team in Indonesia, and directed operations in North America through 2015. Jason holds a masters in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary and is the author of Fight Like Jesus, a groundbreaking book that equips readers with practical peacemaking skills as it examines how Jesus waged peace on each day of Holy Week. Today, you’ll find Jason living in his riskiest location yet: next door to his in-laws. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Covid-19 accelerated the digital reformation for the church as countless ministries were forced to re-evaluate and re-examine their strategies and methods around online ministry. Author and church leader Ryan Panzer encourages Christian communities to think like a reformer when planning what's next for digital ministry. In this conversation, Ryan talks about digital values, practices that must be preserved from before and during the pandemic, and how to make hybrid ministry sustainable. Ryan Panzer is the author of “Grace and Gigabytes: Being Church in a Tech-Shaped Culture” and the forthcoming "The Holy and the Hybrid: Navigating the Church's Digital Reformation." Ryan has spent his career in the worlds of church leadership and technology. He received his M.A. from Luther Seminary while simultaneously working for Google. Ryan serves as a learning and leadership development professional in the technology industry and as a speaker and writer on digital technology in the church. Ryan also serves as the Resident Theologian at Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Madison, WI where he lives with his wife and two children. For more writings and resources, visit www.ryanpanzer.com. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In many churches, innovation and experimentation is avoided, often due to a fear of failure. Author and Episcopal Priest Lorenzo Lebrija joins the pod to talk about Design Thinking, why frameworks can be helpful in church contexts, and why failing is okay. Lebrija believes that God rewards faithfulness, not success and encourages leaders to examine their goals rather than just aiming to get people in the seats! The Rev. Lorenzo Lebrija is the Chief Innovation Officer of Virginia Theological Seminary and the founding director of TryTank Experimental Lab, an action laboratory for church innovation. Prior to launching TryTank, Fr. Lorenzo was the Chief Development Officer for the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles. He also served as the Pastor on behalf of the Bishop at St. John's Episcopal Church in San Bernardino, CA, and as priest associate at St. Athanasius Episcopal Church at the Cathedral Center of St. Paul in Los Angeles. He studied at the General Theological Seminary in New York City where he earned his Master of Divinity degree. His book How to Try is available by print or audio. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Growing up as a child, Christina Edmondson believed there were not that many white Christians in America, because the people she saw couldn't be connected to the Jesus she knew. In the years since, her passion for following the way of Jesus and bringing love and justice to racial dynamics in America has shaped her work. In this conversation, we talk about why talking about racism is not a "distraction" from the gospel, why common memory is crucial for forming community, and how to have a trauma-informed mission strategy. Christina Barland Edmondson is a higher education instructor, organizational consultant, and co-host of the Truth's Table podcast. She is the coauthor of Faithful Antiracism and has served in a variety of roles in higher education including as the Dean for Intercultural Student Development at Calvin University. She is also a certified Cultural Intelligence facilitator, public speaker, mental health therapist, and a consultant in the areas of ethics, equity, and Christian leadership development. Christina holds a PhD in counseling psychology from Tennessee State University, an MS degree in family therapy from the University of Rochester, and a bachelor's degree in sociology from Hampton University. Her writing has been seen and referenced in a variety of outlets including Essence.com, YourBlackWorld.com, and Gospel Today magazine. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

While the Covid-19 pandemic forced many churches to join the digital revolution, many have failed to accept the "Great Digital Commission." Believing that embracing social media can be a catalyst for church growth and transformation, Caleb Lines joins to the show to talk about the importance of evaluating vision and mission, why branding is more than just trendy graphics, and why not everything you do at your church needs to be replicated online also. Rev. Dr. Caleb J. Lines is Senior Minister of University Christian Church in San Diego. Additionally, he is the Co-Executive Director of Progressive Christianity.org and is the Co-Host of the podcast The Moonshine Jesus Show. Caleb has a passion for pursuing social justice for the marginalized, demonstrating the Good News of God’s radically inclusive love, and proclaiming a relevant message for today’s ever-changing world. Caleb is the author of The Great Digital Commission: Embracing Social Media for Church Growth and Transformation His writing has been featured in The Nation Magazine, Disciples News Service, Chalice Press, The Christian Left, The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, The Center for Prophetic Imagination, the Convergence Leadership Project, and Sojourners. Caleb has a D.Min from Duke Divinity and a M.Div from Yale. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

For the last 10-20 years, church planting has become formulaic and systematized, as large church planting organizations brought corporate practices and values into the church world. This kind of business thinking has created an "industrial church starting complex" that according to author Nick Warnes, needs to be re-examined. In this conversation, we talk about a better model for church starts, the need for churches to shift from internal growth to reproduction, and why denominations are no longer a viable protocol to start new churches. Nicholas Warnes (Masters of Divinity, Fuller Theological Seminary, Emphasis in Worship Theology and Art) is the Founder and Executive Director of Cyclical. He enjoys the regular pattern and rhythm of being both the Executive Director of Cyclical Inc. and Director of Cyclical LA, a ministry of the San Fernando Presbytery in Los Angeles. Nick is also a recognized speaker on church planting, coach for New Worshiping Communities with the Presbyterian Church USA, and is the chair of the board of the Church Planting Program at Fuller Theological Seminary where he is also an adjunct professor (church planting certificate). Nick is the author of several books including Deconstructing Church Planting. Nick lives with his wife, Whitney, and son, Lee, in Los Angeles, CA. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

As more churches struggle post-Covid, many are looking at how their building and property can support their flagging budgets. Yet, according to real estate expert and author Dominic Dutra, if churches are simply leasing or renting their property just to prop up their dwindling budgets - they're only hurting their mission. In this conversation, Dutra talks about his experience with real estate and church property, how real estate and church mission go together, and what questions to ask if your church is declining. Dutra also examines the three common moves for churches and property, including merging, leasing, and selling. Dominic Dutra has spent his life serving his community. As a leader in the world of real estate, an adjunct faculty member at his alma mater (Santa Clara University), a two-term member of the Fremont City Council, and a committed Christian, Dutra seeks to leverage his experience to further the mission of the church. He aims to partner with organizations to reach fiscal sustainability and create more effective ministry. Dutra and his wife, Lisa, have been married for thirty-five years and have raised two children—Tricia and Gabriel. Learn more about his book here: The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Far too often, churches are asking other to risk their discomfort - shouldn't churches be willing to risk their own discomfort for the sake of others? In this conversation, Sean Chow talks about how to help churches honestly assess their ability to pivot for change and growth, the importance of finding the right kind of change/growth leader, and why investing in resources bearing fruit matters. Sean believes that crisis accelerates change and understands the changes that are permanent post-Covid and what your church can do about them. Rev. Dr. Sean Chow is the Associate for 1001 New Worshiping Communities for Training and Leadership Cohorts for the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). He resources and consults with regional denominational bodies, churches, and church plants as they launch new creative expressions of church. He is a graduate of Azusa Pacific University (2005), Master of Divinity from San Francisco Theological Seminary (2009) and a Doctor of Ministry at New York Theological Seminary (2022). The author of Rediscovering Vitality, Sean has an inner desire to be a part of a God driven movement that impacts the world for God’s glory. His aim is to prepare, equip, and sustain leaders to do the work in which God calls them. He is a frequent speaker to churches, committees, gatherings, and conferences. Learn more here. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In a time in which countless church leaders have cast aside Christian ethics in the pursuit of power, David Gushee believes that Christian ethics still matter. In this conversation, we talk about why ethics should still be important to Christians and churches, how he sees the kingdom of God as a basis for Christian ethics, and how to promote an ethic of creation care rather than a relentless pursuit of profits. And, in this post-Roe landscape, David examines the lessons from SCOTUS and whether the victory will be worth the cost for Evangelicals. Dr. David P. Gushee (Ph.D., Union Theological Seminary, New York) is Distinguished University Professor of Christian Ethics atMercer University, Chair of Christian Social Ethics at Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, and Senior Research Fellow at International Baptist Theological Study Centre. Gushee is the elected Past-President of both the American Academy of Religion and Society of Christian Ethics, signaling his role as one of America’s leading Christian ethicists. He is the author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of over 25 books and approximately 175 book chapters, journal articles, and reviews. His most recognized works include Righteous Gentiles of the Holocaust, Kingdom Ethics, and The Sacredness of Human Life, and more recently, Changing OurMind, Still Christian and After Evangelicalism. Over a 28-year career, he’s been a devoted teacher, scholar, and activist on such issues as climate, torture, and LGBTQ inclusion. Dr. Gushee and his wife Jeanie live in Atlanta. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

It's vital that new churches and communities of faith are started in order to carry the faith on to future generations, yet church planting has never been harder. Setting aside the challenges of Covid and a culture in turmoil, there are common pitfalls that can trip up even the most agile. Pastor and veteran church starter Daniel Steigerwald joins the pod to talk about these common pitfalls and how they can be avoided, such as navigating bi-vocational ministry contexts, leadership challenges, and unrealistic ministry metrics. Daniel Steigerwald helps pioneering leaders engage fresh ways to lead and multiply mission-shaped communities while tending to their holistic formation along the way. Having worked for 30+ years in cross-cultural missions, church planting and pastoring, he knows personally how hard and soul-depleting ministry can become. Dan holds a DMin in Leadership in the Emerging Culture from Portland Seminary, is credentialed at the PCC level under the International Coach Federation (ICF), and has authored a number of practical books including 10 Pitfalls in Starting New Churches: Avoiding Hazards on the Way to Health (2020). The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In many church and clergy circles, part-time is considered the "kiss of death," the dreaded sign that the church has thrown in the towel and is circling the drain, trying to squeeze out a few more months or years before inevitably closing its doors. It need not be so, says Jeffrey MacDonald. In this conversation, we talk about how utilizing part-time clergy can actually be a move toward vitality and growth for struggling churches, what denominations can do better to support PT clergy, and what churches and denominations owe to pastors who took on student load debt but can't find decent jobs to pay the bills. The Rev. G. Jeffrey MacDonald helps mainline Protestant congregations develop fresh vitality without full-time clergy. He does this through service journalism, authoring books, consulting with church leaders and serving as a part-time interim pastor. Ordained in the United Church of Christ, Jeff has won national awards for his religion coverage in The Christian Science Monitor, Religion News Service, Faith & Leadership and other outlets. He’s the author of Thieves in the Temple: The Christian Church and the Selling of the American Soul and Part-Time is Plenty: Thriving without Full-Time Clergy. He lives in Swampscott, Mass. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

"The church can break our hearts more often than it does the gospel work of healing us" says pastor Amy Butler, who in being the first woman to serve at 3 different churches knows what it's like to find heartbreak rather than healing. In this conversation, Pastor Amy shares why she still believes the church can be a powerful force for healing and hope, talks about Invested Faith - one of the ways she is seeking to lead the church forward into more healing and hope, and explains why she's fascinated with the question, "what does it take to build community that can change the world." Rev. Dr. Amy Butler currently leads National City Christian Church as intentional interim Senior Minister. Before that, Amy served for for five years as the seventh Senior Minister and first woman at the helm of The Riverside Church in the City of New York. She holds degrees from Baylor University, the International Baptist Theological Seminary, and Wesley Theological Seminary. When she’s not busy leading, teaching, preaching or writing, Pastor Amy is an avid reader and loves to write, recently completing her first memoir which will soon be published by Penguin Random House Books. Pastor Amy is mom to three amazing young adults who are each making their way in the world; they are her favorites. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Deconstruction has been the buzzword in progressive Christian contexts for the last 5+ years, yet often times that deconstruction looks more like an angry sledgehammer than a thoughtful critique. While there are certainly aspects of the Christian tradition that need to be taken apart, pastor and author Brian Zahnd joins the pod to talk about the dangers of deconstruction, the mystical future of Christianity, and why the future will be sustained by an experience--not an argument. Brian Zahnd is the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. Known for his theologically informed preaching and his embrace of the deep and long history of the church, Zahnd provides a forum for pastors to engage with leading theologians and is a frequent conference speaker. He is the author of several books, including Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, A Farewell to Mars, and When Everything is on Fire. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

As with many things in our society, Covid accelerated the revolution in church economics that was already coming. Mark DeYmaz joins the pod to share from his book, written before Covid, about what inspired him to write the book and why he thinks it's all the more important as a result of the Covid-related changes. In our conversation, we talk about the change in mindset church leaders need to have, how churches can develop multiple streams of income and leverage their assets, and why churches need to stop begging for money! A thought-leading writer and recognized champion of the Multiethnic Church Movement, Mark planted the Mosaic Church in 2001 where he continues to serve as Directional Leader. In 2004, he co-founded the Mosaix Global Network with Dr. George Yancey, today serving as its president and convener of the triennial National Multi-ethnic Church Conference. In 2008, he launched Vine and Village and remains active on the board of this 501(c)(3) non-profit focused on the spiritual, social, and financial transformation of Little Rock's University District. Mark also has academic partnerships with Wheaton College and is an adjunct professor at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and Phoenix Seminary, where he earned a D.Min. in 2007. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Evangelicalism has been in a season of conflict and turmoil as seemingly unending scandals and controversies have rocked the space. As an uneasy insider, Pastor and author Dan Stringer acknowledges the struggles yet seeks an alternative option between "everything's fine" or "burn it all down." In our conversation, we talk about understanding Evangelicalism as as a space rather than a brand, the importance of understanding evangelicalism as more than simple white and American, and why he understands why some "exvangelicals" had to leave. Through all this, Dan offers some practical suggestions and glimmers of hope. Dan Stringer grew up as a third culture kid in five countries on three continents. He is a graduate of Wheaton College and Fuller Theological Seminary, ordained in the Evangelical Covenant Church, and serves as team leader for InterVarsity's Graduate and Faculty Ministries in Hawai'i. Dan is pastor of theological formation at Wellspring Covenant Church in Hālawa, Hawai'i. He previously was a social worker helping people obtain housing and employment. He has written for Missio Alliance, Inheritance, and Level Ground, and is a contributor to Father Factor. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Do I stay Christian? A question countless pastors, church leaders, and followers of Jesus could never have imagined themselves asking, yet when confronted with the behavior of modern-day Christians and the historical legacy of Christianity, many can't help but ask themselves the question. In our conversation, Brian talks about the complexity of what it even means to be a Christian, why solidarity--not supremacy--should be the model for Christianity moving forward, and why some people may need to simply leave a form of Christianity rather than the whole religion. A former college English teacher, Brian was a pastor for twenty-four years. Now he’s an author, activist, public theologian, and frequent guest lecturer for gatherings in the U.S. and internationally. His work has been covered in TIME Magazine, Newsweek, USA Today, The New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, and many other media outlets. The author of more than 15 books, including Faith After Doubt, A New Kind of Christian, and Do I Stay Christian? Brian is a faculty member of The Living School at the Center for Action and Contemplation. McLaren lives in Florida. https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/brian-mclaren-on-faith-after-doubt/ The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Evangelism, the "E" word is often one of the most dreaded conversation topics in many mainline and progressive church communities. Rev. Phiwa Langeni, a self-described "evangelist for evangelism" joins the pod to define what they mean by "evangelism," clarify the differences between evangelism and colonialism, and also provided good examples within progressive contexts. Phiwa believes there is a difference between proselytizing and evangelism, and we need to better train church people to share their stories. As a queer, Black, trans person from an immigrant family, the Rev. Phiwa Langeni is quite skilled at detecting and decreasing various societal gaps, especially with/for those with multiple minoritized identities. Since ordination in 2011, Phiwa has served in just about every local church setting possible: a thriving progressive church, multi-charge rural churches, a large suburban church, small churches deeply rooted in political and social justice, and a new church start/nonprofit hybrid. They currently serve as the Ambassador for Innovation and Engagement in the United Church of Christ's Center for Analytics, Research & Development, and Data. Phiwa is also the owner of a few small creative businesses, including their most recent adventures in fashion design. They solo parent an adult daughter who challenges them in brilliance and beauty. In their free time, Phiwa enjoys reading, upcycling, 90s R&B, dad jokes, and creating all manner of things. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Numerical church growth in mainline churches is often seen as problematic or even impossible. Pastor and author Tracy Barnowe joins the pod to talk about ethical and achievable action plans to help churches bring in more people. In our conversation, we talk about why church growth is often so frowned upon in mainline churches, what churches are doing that doesn't work, and 3 things churches can start doing immediately to grow their church! Rev. Tracy Barnowe is an ordained minister with the United Church of Christ. She has served as a revitalization pastor in multiple churches and has studied and tested methods for effective church growth for the past twenty years. She has served as a Church Growth Consultant and led workshops on her evidence-based growth strategies for years. She served as the Minister for Church Vitality in the Hawai’i Conference of the United Church of Christ. Pastor Tracy is the author of Unstoppable Outreach and Grow Your Church. She holds an MDiv from Pacific School of Religion (2011) and an MA from the Graduate Theological Union (2012) in Biblical Studies with a focus on Old Testament Hermeneutics. Learn more at her website. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

In this time of disruption and decline among mainline denominations, it's vital that efforts be made to start new churches and worshipping communities. Consultants Paul Nixon and Craig Gilbert join the pod to share practical, how-to steps for everything from initial advertising to building a volunteer team from their book Launching a New Worship Community Paul Nixon is the author of multiple books on church development. His company, Epicenter Group, has coached hundreds of congregations and their leaders in North America and in Europe, helping many to discover breakthroughs in the growth and renewal of their ministries. Nixon also serves as director of church multiplication for Discipleship Ministries. He was codeveloper of the Readiness 360 inventory for churches. Craig Gilbert is a worship consultant and founder of Purposed Heart Ministries. From Craig’s ministry start in a small congregation to his serving a church with eight distinctive worship communities involving more than 2,000 worshipers, Craig has planned and presented worship in a wide variety of styles at the “every Sunday” level, as well as designing and leading worship in large conference settings for thousands of people. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

For the last 2+ years, pastors and church leaders have wondered what church after Covid would look like. While there are some conclusions to be drawn, in many ways the results are still unclear. Pastor and Researcher Ann Mitchell Hall joins the pod to talk about cultivating change readiness, leading intentionally, and making meaning meaning out of transitions from her book Church After, a book written before Covid, yet incredibly applicable to these times. Listen in to learn more about the importance of story, why listening is so important, and why shared practice is everything. Rev. Dr. Anna Hall is an ordained Baptist minister who has coordinated programs and conducted research in churches, nonprofits, and universities. In her work as Director of Research and Development for the Convergence, she draws on the latest research from across the fields of religious practice, organizational development, and adult learning to inform product development and implementation that supports the needs of pastors and churches. She holds a Master of Divinity from Candler School of Theology, Emory University, a Master of Public Administration from Valdosta State University, and a Ph.D. from the University of Georgia, where her research focused on congregations experiencing a change in pastors. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

From tiny houses to Marie Kondo, Minimalism has a strong counter-cultural following against the endless onslaught of consumerism. Author and educator Becca Ehrlich joins the pod to talk about minimalism, how it connects with the Christian faith, and why minimalism isn't just about getting rid of stuff, but choosing to live intentionally and purposefully. Becca Ehrlich AKA The Christian Minimalist, is striving to be a Christian minimalist in a consumer society. She is an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA); she also holds a doctorate in Christian spirituality. As a Christian minimalist in a consumeristic society, she got rid of 60 percent of her personal possessions in six months, took part in a year-long shopping fast, and moved into a small home. She currently lives in New York City with her husband Will. You can read more about her story and how her blog came to exist here. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

We all have so many demands and distractions that it is hard to take time away for ourselves to spend with God. Rich Lewis joins the pod to talk about the importance of making time to spend in quiet contemplation. Rich talks about the practice of centering prayer and why it has been an important spiritual practice for him, allowing him to let go of stress, find rest, and be more present in everyday life. Rich Lewis is an author, speaker and coach who focuses on centering prayer as a means of inner transformation. He teaches centering prayer in both his local and virtual community and offers one-on-one coaching. He publishes a weekly meditation, book reviews, and interviews on his site, Silence Teaches. He has published articles for a number of organizations, including Contemplative Light, Abbey of the Arts, Contemplative Outreach, EerdWord, In Search of a New Eden, the Ordinary Mystic at Patheos, and the Contemplative Writer. ​Rich has been a daily practitioner of centering prayer since June 2014. Centering prayer has been so life-giving and life-changing that he feels compelled to share his journey with others who wish to learn more. Rich resides with his family in Ambler, Pennsylvania. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Terry Wildman joins the pod to talk about the First Nations Version, a new translation of the Sacred Scriptures by and for Native North Americans. In this conversation, we talk about what inspired the translation, their choice for the name of Jesus (Creator sets free), and how he hopes the translation will be a blessing to first nations people. Terry M. Wildman (Ojibwe and Yaqui) is the lead translator, general editor, and project manager of the First Nations Version. He serves as the director of spiritual growth and leadership development for Native InterVarsity. He is also the founder of Rain Ministries and has previously served as a pastor and worship leader. He and his wife, Darlene, live in Arizona. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Jeya and Daniel So join the pod to talk about what is a third culture leader, how to develop them, and the gifts they bring. Jeya and Daniel believe that changing our attitude toward post-Christendom will help us all, and why Christ does not erase our cultural or ethnic heritage, but rather redeems it. Revs. Jeya and Daniel So are the co-founding and co-lead pastors of Anchor City Church, a third-culture community in San Diego,CA. They are contributing authors to the book, "Deconstructing Church Planting: Reconstructing a Post-Colonial and Post-industrial Pneumatology for the Next Generation of Churches" as well as other books. Jeya also works as a coach, cohort leader, and in other capacities with church and industry leaders in several denominations and organizations, including the PC(USA)’s 1001 New Worshipping Communities, Cyclical Inc. and ISAAC (Innovative Space for Asian American Christianity).Daniel serves as director of Cyclical San Diego — a diverse grassroots network of faithful innovators and church starters. During the pandemic, Jeya has enjoyed exploring hidden places in San Diego that reveal new and wonderful things about the city that she loves. When its safe to do so, Daniel will be front and center in the moshpit at local hardcore shows." The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

American Christianity seemingly has built-in assumptions that God is only honored in victories. Writer and author Tanya May Avent joins the pod to talk about why it's a mistake to only understand God's abundance as being in external metrics, how our own demands for results can hurt the ones we love, and why she's redefined winning and worshipping God and loving her family. Tonya is an engaging speaker, teacher, and award-winning author who has contributed to Chicken Soup for the Soul and has written for Guideposts and Stay Focused magazines. After a serious injury to her daughter while competing in Track and Field, Tonya started ministering the gospel through a sports lens at destined4thedub.com, offering personal stories relating to the intersection of her Faith, her Family, their athletic pursuits, and everyday life challenges. Tonya has been married to Kenny Avent for 19 years. They reside in New Jersey with their two daughters, Kennedi (17) and Kassadi (14), and are guardians to Anna (15). The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

"Dreamcrusher" and fellow Coloradan Jessie Cruickshank joins the pod to talk about about Neuro-ecclesiology. In this off-the-cuff conversation, we talk about why shame is never a tool of God, why people will never make it on information alone, and why the brain can't be trusted, or at least, our own understanding of the world. Jessie also talks about why the job description for pastors is one crafted in hell. Jesse is an ordained Foursquare minister and nationally recognized expert in the fields of discipleship, neuroeducation, and experiential education. She has spent over a decade applying neuroeducation research to discipleship, ministry training, experiential education, and organization development. She is respected globally as a missiological thought-leader and serves the body of Christ as a neuro-ecclesiologist. Jessie is a church and denominational consultant and serves as the Director of Certification with the Future Church Company. She is the Co-Founder of 5Q. Jessie holds a Master’s from Harvard in Mind, Brain, and Education. She is a published academic, author, and serves on multiple boards internationally. You can follow her on Twitter and Instagram at @yourbrainbyjess The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Love is perhaps, one of the most overused and misunderstood words in the English language, especially when it comes to God. Theologian Thomas Jay Oord, author of the new book, Pluriform Love, joins the show to talk about the confusion around live in the Bible, why the Augustinian idea of God's love isn't ideal, and why he believes there is not a distinction between human love and God's love. Thomas Jay Oord, Ph.D., is a theologian, philosopher, and scholar of multi-disciplinary studies. Oord directs the Center for Open and Relational Theology and doctoral students at Northwind Theological Seminary. He is an award-winning author and has written or edited more than twenty-five books. A gifted speaker, Oord lectures at universities, conferences, churches, and institutions. He is known for his contributions to research on love, science and religion, open and relational theology, the problem of suffering, and the implications of freedom for transformational relationships. https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/thomas-jay-oord-on-open-and-relational-theology/ The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

With all the controversies of the past few years, many churches have sought to avoid difficult conversations and tough topics. Pastor and Author Elizabeth Hagan believes such an approach is mistaken. Rather, she believes people need to speak their truths without fear of being dismissed, shamed, or judged. In this conversation, we talk about safe spaces vs. brave spaces, why conflict can be a good thing, and the importance of boundaries. Elizabeth Hagan is an ecumenical pastor at heart who currently serves at First Christian Church in Athens, GA. She is a graduate of Samford University and Duke Divinity School. She is also the author of Birthed: Finding Grace Through Infertility and the executive director of Our Courageous Kids, a foundation serving young adults who grew up in international orphanages with educational and mental health support. She is the proud wife of Kevin and mother of Amelia. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Discipleship is something we all like to talk about but don't all agree on what it actually means. Robert Douglas, author of the book The Missional Discipleship-Making Handbook, joins the show to talk about the best ways to live into discipleship, why we are not often clear on definitions and key terms, and why the church overemphasizing the Sunday worship gathering has effectively rendered discipleship optional. Pastor Robert Douglas has an MA Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary and is a church starter, local pastor, Cyclical Developer, coach, author of The Missional Disciple-Making Handbook, and Director of Cyclical Full Circle. Rob has taken the lessons learned from starting church planting ecosystems and working with innovative church leaders around the world and applied it to creating frameworks that help churches take faithful next steps toward greater health and vitality. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Pastors often find themselves working in churches that don't fit with their own personal theology. Jake Doberenz joins the pod to talk about what keeps him in a church that doesn't fit with his own theology, whether he thinks there is a way to bridge the theological divides that often exist between clergy and laypeople, and how to know when it's time to leave. Having served in the Church of Christ, Jake also shares some thoughts on what conservative churches can learn from liberal churches, and vice versa. Jake Doberenz is a writer, speaker, minister, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK with my wife Samantha. His main role is the founder and president of Theophany Media, a Christian education company dedicated to helping Christians create better art. Currently, he serves as producer for Theophany Media's Creatively Christian podcast. He recently finished a Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, where he also earned a Bachelor’s degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies. If you want to see his progress, achievements, and appearances sign up for the newsletter so you’ll never miss an update! The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Recent times have put a spotlight on the inequities, systems of oppression, and deep divisions in our society. Much has been written that acknowledges and describes the divides, but there has been little practical information on what can be done. In this conversation, Brian Allain and Adam Thomas, editors of the book How to Heal Our Divides, talk about why they believe healing our divides is possible, ways that churches and leaders can facilitate healing in their communities, and steps privileged persons often overlook when seeking healing. Brian Allain founded and leads Writing for Your Life, a resource center and conferences for spiritual writers, which includes the Publishing in Color conference series, intended to increase the number of books published by spiritual writers of color. Brian also founded and leads the teams that produce Compassionate Christianity and How to Heal Our Divides. Previously Brian served as Founding Director of the Frederick Buechner Center where he led the launch of Mr. Buechner’s online presence and established several new programs and strategic partnerships. Brian has developed and led spiritual writers conferences at Princeton Theological Seminary, Drew Theological Seminary, Western Theological Seminary, the University of Southern California, Belmont University, New Brunswick Seminary, and several churches. He led the publishing effort for the book Buechner 101: An Introduction to Frederick Buechner, in collaboration with Anne Lamott, and also the book How to Heal Our Divides. All of this is a second career, coming after business and technology leadership in high-tech. Brian has an MBA from the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania, where he was designated a Palmer Scholar, their highest academic award. You can learn more about Brian here and here. Adam Thomas wears many hats: pastoring an Episcopal Church in southeastern Connecticut, editing and designing books for independent writers, writing fantasy novels, podcasting about Jesus and nerdy stuff, and playing lots of Dungeons and Dragons. Adam published four books and curricula with Abingdon Press from 2011 to 2014 (Digital Disciple, Letters from Ruby, Converge: Who is Jesus?, and Unusual Gospel for Unusual People). When the twins were born in 2014, he switched to writing fantasy. You can find hundreds of sermons on wherethewind.com, several fantasy novels on adamthomas.net, and his podcast, The Podcast for Nerdy Christians at nerdychristians.com or wherever you download your podcasts. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Lent is often misunderstood as simply being about giving up meat, chocolate, or some other pleasure in the name of spiritual growth. Rev. Riley Pickett joins the pod to talk about why she loves Lent and why believes Lent is so much more than just simple fasts and diets. In the interview, Riley talks about the beauty of Lent, how she helped bring together the book Fury & Grace, and how churches and faith communities can use the book to cultivate communal spiritual practices and growth during the season of Lent, considering the perspectives of the marginalized and often forgotten in prison. Rev. Riley Pickett (she/her) is an ordained Presbyterian (USA) minister currently serving as Interim Pastor for Hagar’s Community Church, a congregation planted inside of the largest women’s prison in Washington State. She holds her Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary and is passionate about creating worshipping spaces with folks who have been historically excluded from the Church, especially queer and trans people. She is happiest by a body of water, on a mountain, or when surrounded by books and her people. Get a copy of the book here: The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

The biggest challenge to new church start leaders is sustainability. But, these problems are not for church planters to solve alone says Scott Hagley, Karen Rohrer, and Michael Gehrling, editors of the book Sustaining Grace: Innovative Ecosystems for New Faith Communities. In our conversation, we talk about the book, why judicatories ned church planters even if they don't become self-sustaining, and why the metric of "sustainability" needs to be interrogated and cast aside. Scott J Hagley is Associate Professor of Missiology at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. He is the author of Eat What is Set Before You: A Missiology of the Congregation in Context. Karen Rohrer is the director of the Center for Adaptive and Innovative Ministry at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. Before coming to Pittsburgh, she was an organizing co-pastor at Beacon, a new faith community in Philadelphia. Michael Gehrling serves the Presbyterian Church (USA) as an associate for the 1001 New Worshipping Communities initiative. Before coming to this role, he was an organizing co-pastor of the Upper Room, a new faith community in Pittsburgh. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Inclusion often comes at the cost of excluding others, says Rev. Lori Tapia. In the interview, Lori talk about understanding church beyond simply faith development, but an extension of everyday life and family, encouraging churches to work together in new ways, highlighting the ways Hispanic churches are modeling these practices already and can be an example for predominately white churches. Lori also shares some of the things she's learned during this time of pandemic and offers some advice for churches moving foward. Rev. Lori Tapia serves as the National Pastor for Hispanic Ministries of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the US and Canada, the first woman and first Mexican-American elected to this position. Additionally, Pastor Lori is a church planter, an author, a community activist and a public speaker. Lori serves with a passion for relevantly sharing Jesus, for empowering others, and for building and maintaining strong and faithful relationships, and healthy communities of faith. Lori received her Master in Divinity from Claremont School of Theology, receiving the prestigious Church of the Good Shepherd Preaching Award and the Disciples Seminary Foundation Award. Lori has over 25 years’ experience in community, family and social service programming. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.

Churches and nonprofits often struggle trying to figure out how to "market" themselves, often lamenting that they are the "best kept secret" in town. Marketing expert JJ Peterson joins the pod to talk about the four different categories of nonprofits, how each kind should market itself, and why non-profits should market and message like a for-profit. JJ also talks about the how the Storybrand framework, and how progressive churches can do a better job getting their message out. Since 2013, Dr. J.J. Peterson has used the StoryBrand Framework to help thousands of organizations clarify their message in order to grow their business. He holds a PhD in Communication and has spent the last 20 years practicing and teaching communication theory. J.J. has studied C.S. Lewis in Oxford, debated theology with filmmakers at the Sundance Film Festival, directed a documentary, served in marketing and PR for two multinational non-profit organizations, served as a communication professor, and has spoken to thousands of people about creating a clear message. As the Sr. Director of StoryBrand, J.J. travels around the world facilitating StoryBrand workshops and keynotes, helping people grow their business. The Future Christian Podcast is a production of Torn Curtain Arts and Resonate Media.