Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

David and Rhonda are joined in today's podcast by Dr. Taylor Chesney, a former student of David's who is now the head of the Feeling Good Institute of New York City. She is a prominent TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer, and specializes in the treatment of children and teenagers. Taylor kindly agreed to do some live work today on her panic and despair because of the impact of the pandemic on her family. Her situation is especially challenging and poignant because her husband, Gregg, is a highly esteemed Emergency Room / Intensive Care physician in New York, and he is constantly working to save the lives of Covid-19 victims. Ten days ago he moved to a separate apartment several blocks away so he will not put his wife and children in harm's way in case he contracts the Covid-19 virus. But will he, himself, be struck down by this vicious virus? He told Taylor that he recently had to intubate several of his colleagues, which is horrifying. Taylor fears that she may lose her beloved husband, and that her three children may have to grow up without a father. She also feels overwhelmed because she's supporting many people now. David begins with a brief overview of the cognitive model, including several key points: All negative feelings result from thoughts, and not from what's actually happening. So even in a crisis that is as real and devastating as the Covid-19 pandemic, all of our emotions will still result from the way we think about it. Remember the teachings of Epictetus 2,000 years ago, when he wrote: "People are disturbed, not by things, but by the views we take of them." This is potentially empowering, because we usually cannot change the fact—the pandemic is real and we are powerless to make it disappear—but we may be able to change our perceptions (eg thoughts, or "cognitions") about what's happening. There's a healthy and an unhealthy version of every kind of negative feeling. For example, healthy fear is not the same as unhealthy anxiety; healthy sadness and grief are not the same as clinical depression; healthy remorse is not the same as neurotic guilt. And so forth. Our goal is not teaching you how to be happy all the time no matter what—that would be absurd—but simply to reduce or eliminate unhealthy negative feelings. Healthy negative feelings result from valid negative thoughts, and do not have to be "treated." Unhealthy negative feelings, in contrast, result from negative thoughts that are distorted and illogical. David reminds us that even in a crisis, depression and anxiety are still the world's oldest cons, and that you CAN change the way you feel. But is this possible? It just doesn't sound right! Can Taylor really change the way she thinks and feels when the crisis is so overwhelming and so real? And can you? As the session unfolds, Taylor tearfully describes her intense fears for her husband, who she loves so greatly, as well as their three young children. She says that 75% of the time, she's "okay," when she's awake and involved with caring for her kids, but 25% of the time—especially late at night when she's alone with the kids—things get pretty desperate, and sobs for 30 minutes or more while experiencing "sheer terror." What's making the situation more painful is that Gregg is temporarily living six blocks away in order to protect his family in the event he does contract the potentially deadly virus. Taylor says that "it feels like we're kicking him out. He's at war. He's fighting, struggling, suffering." She says he's passionate about his work, but she wishes he'd quit! Take a look at Taylor's Daily Mood Log at the start of the session. As you can see, she is focusing on how she is feeling every night before going to sleep. She circled seven different categories of negative feelings, and all are intense, including the depression, anxiety and frustration clusters (all are 100%), the lonely and hopeless categories (both 90%), as well as feeling "bad" (50%.) You can also see the negative thoughts she recorded. She is telling herself that: Negative Thoughts % Now 1. I shouldn't have to do this alone. 90 2. I can't handle parenting alone. 70 3. I shouldn't burden Gregg with my feelings. 70 4. I should share my feelings. 50 5. I should be strong and tough. 80 6. I'll let my patients down if I don't have enough time for them. 50 7. I'll lose Gregg. 50 - 100 8. I shouldn't have to do this. 100 9. I should be able to work and support my family while Gregg stays at home safely. 50 You can also see that her belief in these thoughts varied from 50% to 100%. After empathizing for 30 minutes, Rhonda and David asked about her goals for the session, which would be to turn down the intensity of her negative feelings. Together, Rhonda, Taylor and David do Positive Reframing, asking two questions about each negative thought and feeling: What does this negative thought or feeling show about Taylor that's positive and awesome? What are some benefits, or advantages, of this negative thought or feeling? Together

My mother won't follow my advice! David and Rhonda are joined in today's podcast by Alex Clarke, MD, a former student of David's who is practicing TEAM therapy at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California, and by Zeina Halim, a TEAM therapist and student in David's Tuesday Stanford psychotherapy training group. In our last two podcasts (Corona Cast 1 and 2) (links) we focused on the impact of the corona crisis on internal feelings like depression, anxiety, panic, hopelessness, and so forth. In this week's Corona Cast 3, we will switch our focus to the impact of the pandemic on personal relationships, using a real example. Zeina was concerned that her mother, aged 72, was not being sufficiently careful about social distancing. Zeina felt panicky because she feared her mother might get the virus and die. However, Zeina's mother is very self-reliant and independent, and didn't take kindly to Zeina's frequent reminders to do this or do that so as to be safe. They ended up arguing and feeling frustrated with each other. Perhaps you've also run into problems with friends and loved ones because of the corona crisis. When people get confined into close quarters, under conditions of intense stress and uncertainty, clashes are almost inevitable. When you're angry with someone , you'll nearly always be viewing the other person in a distorted way. For example, you may be telling yourself that s/he "should" not think, feel or behave the way he or she is thinking, feeling, or behaving. Of course, this is a classic other-directed "should statement." Or you may be telling yourself that the other person is being "stubborn" or "unreasonable" (Labeling; Mind-Reading). Or you may tell yourself that you're right and the other person is wrong (All-or-Nothing Thinking; Blame). And in most cases, you'll be telling yourself that the conflict is the other person's fault and that you're the innocent victim of his or her bad behavior (Blame.) These are just a few of the cognitive distortions (link) that fuel conflict. But it's these distorted thoughts, and NOT what the other person is thinking, feeling, or saying, that actually causes your negative feelings. You are making yourself angry--the other person is NOT causing your anger or frustration! You are creating these feelings. And the thoughts that trigger these feeling are wrong thoughts. This can be a VERY hard pill to swallow. You, and not the person you're mad at, are triggering your feelings of frustration and anger. In addition, the thoughts that upset you are not valid. They're distorted, and just plain WRONG. If you don't like this message, you might want to stop reading! I get it! It is SO MUCH more rewarding to blame the other person! In today's podcast, we discuss and illustrate a sophisticated TEAM-CBT technique called "Forced Empathy" (link). Forced Empathy forces you see things from the perspective of someone you're at odds with. It will ONLY be effective if you want a closer relationship with the person you're at odds with. If you want to remain in battle--as most people do--then you're welcome to do that. Go for it. If, in contrast, you do want to feel closer and more loving, Forced Empathy can lead to a helpful shift in how you think about the person you're angry with. When you suddenly see things through the eyes of the person you're angry with, you may suddenly discover that your thoughts about the other person's motives were not correct. Alex and David describe how the technique works in a step-by-step way, and then illustrate it with a role-play between Zeina and her mother. This is a recreation of the technique they used live in the Stanford Tuesday group a couple weeks before the recording. Forced Empathy proved to be extraordinarily helpful to Zeina, and brought tears to her eyes. Once she saw things from her mother's perspective, the tone of their interactions suddenly softened, and the tension was replaced by feelings of love and acceptance. Zeina was surprised to discover that, among other things, her mother, while not wanting to die, had no fear of death, but didn't appreciate being constantly told what to do, or what not to do, and that she loved and admired Zeina tremendously. Zeina also discovered that in the highly unlikely event that her mother did die, she would want to spend her last days or weeks with her Zeina, feeling close, and loving one another, instead of arguing. Is this relevant to you and your friends and loved ones? In today's podcast, we talk about how you can improve your relationships with friends and loved ones during these challenging times using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We emphasized one of the important take home messages in podcast 164 on "How to Help, and How NOT to Help." Sometimes, people just want someone to care about them and listen, without having someone trying to help them or give them advice. Learning to do this can be incredibly freeing, but it's not easy, because so many of us are add

With the "Shelter in Place" orders in California, we are recording these podcasts from our homes instead of from the Murietta Studios. The sound quality may not be as high as usual while we are learning to use the new technology. (I apologize for the echo in this week's podcast. It won't be there again-Rhonda) Let us know what you think! Thank you, David & Rhonda David and Rhonda are joined again in today's podcast by Jeremy Karmel, who is working with David on the new Feeling Great app. In our first Corona Cast, we promised to present an example of how TEAM-CBT can be helpful for individuals who feel depressed and anxious about the personal impact of the pandemic. Rhonda kick starts today's session by describing her treatment with a patient we're calling Alice just a few days ago. Alice woke up feeling stressed and having trouble settling in and getting to work. If you click here, you can see how she filled out the first few steps of the Daily Mood Log just before the start of her session with Rhonda. The Upsetting Event was simply waking up and feeling out of sorts. She circled and rated her negative emotions, which were fairly intense, especially the feelings of depression, anxiety, inadequacy, despair, frustration. Her anxiety was only minimal, but she was also feeling tremendously "jittery." Why was Alice feeling so upset? Her feelings didn't result from the corona virus epidemic, but from her thoughts about it. As you can see, she was telling herself: 1. This could be the new normal. 2. My life is going to waste. 3. I should be handling this better. 4. I could catch the virus and die. 5. No one is in charge. She strongly believed all of these thoughts except #4, which she only believed 40%. You may recall that in order to feel upset, two things must be true: You must have one or more negative thoughts on your mind. You must strongly believe these thoughts. How are we going to help Alice? In the old days, I would have jumped right in to help Alice challenge her Negative Thoughts, but now we have a far more powerful and systematic approach called TEAM-CBT, as most podcast fans probably already know! These are the four steps of TEAM-CBT: T = Testing. Rhonda tested how Alice was feeling at the start and end of the session. E = Empathy. Rhonda provided warmth and support without trying to "help" or "cheer-lead." A = Assessment of Resistance. This is one of the unique aspects of TEAM-CBT, and it's the secret of ultra-rapid recovery. Rhonda used the Miracle Cure Question, Magic Button, Positive Reframing, and Magic Dial to bring Alice's "resistance" to change to conscious awareness, then quickly reduced it before trying to "help." M = Methods. Rhonda helped Alice identify the many cognitive distortions in her thoughts. For example, her first Negative Thought, "This could be the new normal," was an example of All-or-Nothing Thinking, Overgeneralization, Mental Filtering, Discounting the Positive, Fortune Telling, and Emotional Reasoning. The goal of the M = Methods phase is to crush the Negative Thoughts that are upsetting you. Do you know how to do this? You have to come up with a Positive Thought that has two characteristics: It must be 100% true. Positive affirmations and rationalizations and half truths are worthless. Cognitive therapy is based on the Biblical idea the "The truth shall set you free." The Positive Thought must drastically reduce your belief in the Negative Thought you've recorded on your Daily Mood Log, and ideally your belief in it will go all the way to zero. In fact, the very instant you stop believing the Negative Thought, your feelings will change, and often quite dramatically. Rhonda helped Alice challenge her Negative thoughts with a powerful technique called the Externalization of Voices. For example, Alice was telling herself that "I should be handling this better" because she'd been having trouble adjusting to the home isolation and had been procrastinating instead of focusing on her writing, and she was also telling herself that "My life is going to waste," thinking she'd be procrastinating and feeling miserable forever: "The new normal." The Positive Thought that crushed it was, "I have a lot of experience as a self-starter, and I've got eight weeks of free time now to write, which is pretty awesome. In addition, I can give myself a break, instead of putting myself down, and give myself a little to regroup!" After all, there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who are feeling isolated and in distress, and probably most of them aren't being nearly as productive as they usually are, but clearly, that isn't going to go on forever! Instead of putting yourself down, you can give yourself some support and encouragement, in exactly the same way you might talk to a dear friend. Once Alice crushed her Negative Thoughts with strong Positive Thoughts, her feelings suddenly changed. Although the session was only one hour long, Alice experienced incredible improvements in ho

With the "Shelter in Place" orders in California, we are recording these podcasts from our homes instead of from the Murietta Studios. The sound quality may not be as high as usual until we all get the necessary recording equipment, and learn the new technology. Please bare with us during this transition. Thank you, David & Rhonda David and Rhonda are joined in today's podcast by Jeremy Karmel, who is working with David on the new Feeling Great app, and Dr. Alex Clarke, a former student of David's who is practicing TEAM therapy / psychiatry at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. One of our loyal podcast fans, Phil McCormack, sent a heartwarming email which read, in part: In light of the pandemic taking us into uncharted territories, I thought it might be interesting to hear of some tips from you that would help folks deal with the situation, kind of like the David's Top Ten Tips podcast but this one focused on the hysteria which is prevalent as I write. I'm sure your fans would appreciate it and it might be a good jump start for your new book and app, both called Feeling Great. I realize you are incredibly busy and don't expect an answer. And if you want to tell me to screw myself, I can use your techniques to handle that! I responded like this: Thanks, Phil. I'm trying to put together at least two or three podcasts on the coronavirus from a variety of perspectives! Might read you question to kick start the first one we do, if that's okay. david Phil immediately shot back this email: You're an animal! I have no idea of where you get all your energy and motivation–obviously your techniques work (drug free!) so that must be part of it! Kudos to you for all your effort. It is so, so much appreciated!! I sincerely hope you someday get the recognition you deserve!!! I think Feeling Great might be your ticket... Hope so. Please feel free to read question and thanks for not telling me to "screw myself!" Really appreciate that! Phil How cool is that! Rhonda and I are planning several podcasts on this important topic including today's as well as a podcast on how Rhonda used TEAM to help a woman with severe feelings of depression, anxiety, inadequacy, despair and frustration about the current corona crisis in a single session. We are also planning podcasts on how to communicate with friends and loved ones during the crisis, as well as a survey to assess changes in mood (depression, anxiety, anger, relationship satisfaction and happiness) since the corona virus hit, and possibly more. When the survey is ready, we'll announce it and send you a link in case you'd like to let us know how you've been feeling, and how your feelings might have changed since the virus hit! Rhonda kick starts today's session by reading a list of negative thoughts from folks who are freaked out about the corona virus, including these: Negative Thoughts with Probable Cognitive Distortions The world will turn into an apocalypse. I'll be a carrier and won't know it and then I'll infect my partner and children who will get really sick. I'm divorced and I think my ex- will try to keep me from my kids. She won't be as vigilant as I am about keeping our kids healthy. They'll get sick and infect me. I'm looking for a job right now, but no one will be hiring for a long time and I'll never get a job. I won't have enough money to pay my rent and I'll be evicted from my apartment and end up homeless (or) my business will go out of business. I won't have enough money to have fun for several months. My parents will contract the virus, especially one of my parents who has some chronic health stuff, and get really sick or die. I'm going to get cabin fever. I will lose a sense of self/connection to reality with how surreal everything is. People in my life will die from the virus. * * * Negative Thoughts that are Probably Not Distorted The numbers of infected people are way higher than what's being reported because there's no testing The pandemic is worsening. The pandemic will get much worse than we realize now. Needier populations -- people who have lost work who really need it (restaurant workers, hotel, caterers, production staff, people with no savings, etc) — will suffer. The social fabric is going to break down. Things are going to continue worsening as climate change worsens. I live too far from my parents to help take care of them. Rhonda, Alex, David, and Jeremy begin by discussing several of the basic ideas of TEAM-CBT. We feel the way we think. In other words, the events of this world—like the corona virus—cannot have any effect on how we feel. All of our negative and positive feelings result from our thoughts, or "cognitions." This idea goes back nearly 2,000 years to the teachings of the Greek Stoic philosopher, Epictetus, who said that people are disturbed, not by the things that happen, but by our views of them. Some negative feelings are healthy and some or not. Healthy fear is not the same as neurotic anxiety. Healthy sadn

Today, Rhonda and David answer several challenging questions submitted by listeners like you. What schools of therapy are embedded in TEAM? Do negative feelings cause negative thoughts? Or do negative thoughts cause negative feelings? Or both? Or neither? "Can TEAM-CBT help bipolar patients during the depressed phase?" How do you make Externalization of Voices work? I get stuck! For example, my patient said, "It's unfair that I cannot get a job!" Is there a cure for OCD? 1. What schools of therapy are embedded in TEAM? Dear Dr. Burns, I have some questions specifically about T.E.A.M. therapy. You mention in a blog post that T.E.A.M. therapy "integrates features and techniques from more than a dozen schools of therapy." I'm aware of many of the CBT techniques you use, but I don't think I've read yet of any technique belonging to any other schools of therapy. Would you be so kind as to mention such techniques? Madelen Hi Madelen, This is important because I believe we need to get away from competing schools of therapy and need to create a new, data-driven structure for therapy based on research on how therapy works, which is what TEAM is. At the M = Methods part of the session, you can include methods from any school of therapy. Here are some of the schools of therapy that I draw upon TEAM-CBT. Individual / Interpersonal downward arrow: same (psychoanalytic / psychodynamic) Flooding / Experimental technique: behavior therapy (exposure) Externalization of Voices: Gestalt / Psychodrama / Buddhism Acceptance Paradox: Buddhism Self-Defense Paradigm: REBT CBA / Paradoxical CBA / Devil's Advocate: Motivational techniques Identify the distortions / examine the evidence: cognitive therapy Empathy: Rogerian (humanistic) therapy Five Secrets / Forced Empathy: Interpersonal therapy Shame-Attacking Exercises: Humor-based therapy / Buddhism Be Specific / Let's Define Terms: Semantic Feared Fantasy: Role-Playing / Psychodrama / Exposure One-Minute Drill / Relationship Probe: Couple's Therapy Time Projection / Memory Rescripting: Hypnotherapy Anti-Procrastination Sheet: Behavioral activation therapy (Lewinsohn-type therapy) Brief Mood Survey / Evaluation of Therapy Session: data-driven therapy Talk Show Host / Smile and Hello Practice / Flirting Training: Modeling / teaching effective social behavior Storytelling: indirect hypnosis. Positive Reframing: Paradoxical psychotherapy. Hidden emotion technique: psychoanalytic / psychodynamic Do you need more? Can provide if you want. Let me know why you have this particular interest!At any rate, I really enjoyed and appreciate your thoughtful questions, thanks!David 2. Do negative feelings cause negative thoughts? Or do negative thoughts cause negative feelings? Or both? Or neither? Hello Dr Burns, I would like to thank you for your podcasts. I greatly enjoy listening to them and find them very much helpful both in my personal life and my work as a psychologist. I do have a question: you talk about how cognitive distortions cause anxiety and depression. Are cognitive distortions also a result of depression and anxiety? For instance, if a person was to become depressed after experiencing loss, would they then discount the positive in their lives to a larger extent, for example? Thank you very much! Audrey Hi Audrey, Yes, depression creates a negative bias in perceptions, so you pick out information and details that support your distorted thoughts, like "I'm a loser" or "my case is hopeless." My research, which I'll report in my new book, Feeling Great (sept 2020) indicates that negative thoughts trigger feelings of depression and anxiety, which, in turn trigger more negative thoughts. This is a negative vicious cycle. There is also a positive cycle, in that positive thoughts that you believe to be true trigger positive feelings, which, in turn trigger more positive thoughts! Thanks for the question, Audrey. david 3. "Can TEAM-CBT help bipolar patients during the depressed phase?" Name: Sarah Comment: Hi, Dr. Burns. I am a big fan of your work and very much enjoy reading your blogs and listening to you and Fabrice on you weekly podcasts. I am writing with a question that has to do with the depression side of bipolar disorder and the potential usefulness of CBT. I have not heard you speak about this topic before. My sister in law lives in Switzerland and has been diagnosed with a fairly severe case of bipolar disorder. She does not cycle rapidly, but her manic and depressive states are quite severe. In fact, she has been hospitalized several times during her manic episodes. For the first time in her life, I believe my sister in law has finally accepted the fact that she is bipolar, and she is actively pursuing treatment and trying to get better. After hearing me talk about all the great information I have learned from you, my husband has hunted down several CBT practitioners in Switzerland, in the hopes that changing my sister in law's thoughts will help her navigate the overwhelming

Today, Rhonda and David talk about how to give potentially hurtful feedback when you sense racial bias in a friend or colleague. She describes an incident in her office where the glass coffee table in her waiting room was found smashed and shattered when her office mate "Steve" (not his real name) arrived Monday morning. Although many people, including the cleaning crew, had used the office over the weekend, Steve asked Rhonda to discuss the broken table with someone who uses her office on the weekends, Kenya. Kenya is African American, and a highly esteemed professional and beloved friend and colleague of Rhonda's. Rhonda thought there was implicit bias being played out in this situation but did not know how to discuss it with Steve. But how can she convey these feelings to her office mate, who conveyed the impression that a black man must be the one who broke the table? David suggests one of the advanced communication techniques called "Changing the Focus" discussed and demonstrated in a previous podcast #158. They illustrate how to apply that method to the current situation, and struggle a bit along the way! David reiterates the story of when he was accused of being racist at a psychotherapy workshop near the Texas / Mexico border, and how his own teachings in that very workshop saved the day for him. He emphasizes that it can be so painful to be accused of racist tendencies, or to discover them in yourself, and that this is another case where the cover-up is far worse than the crime! David and Rhonda

Today, Rhonda and David answer three great questions submitted by listeners like you. I am confused about the terms, negative and positive distortions. Help! "How do you treat an "existential crisis?" Can you use the Five Secrets with someone in a hypo-manic state? Won't agreeing with their accusations just make things worse? 1. I am confused about the terms, negative and positive distortions. Dear Dr. Burns, I do have one question about terms I have heard on the podcast. The terms that confuse me are "negative distortions" and "positive distortions." I think I understand that they are both "bad" distortions, but the positive distortions are distortions related to moods or thoughts that are unhealthily high or "up," such as in mania or narcissism. And negative distortions are the ones related to lower mood states/depression. Is this correct? I don't know if it is a brain thing, but even though I think I understand the concepts, my brain still seems to automatically think of positive distortions as good, and so I become quite confused when trying to understand how to fight them or help someone else fight them . . . Thank you again, so much, for all of your hard work on the podcast, as well as your diligence in training therapists in your TEAM model. I am a super-fan of the model already after only a week or so of listening! And the Five Secrets have challenged me to examine my communication abilities much more honestly and helped me in several important interactions already (even as a novice making many mistakes😬). Thank you, thank you, thank you! Please also tell Fabrice and Rhonda many thanks for all of their hard work and excellence as well. They both bring such gifts and refreshing honesty, brilliance and genuineness to the discussions. I especially admire Rhonda for sharing her personal work. Such powerful and transformative stuff! It gives me hope that someday I might be a fraction as brave to DO that kind of work, much less share it openly with others for their benefit. What a generous as well as brave thing to do! I feel so hopeful and encouraged to know there are therapists like you, Fabrice, and Rhonda helping people to heal from vast amounts of mental and emotional suffering. I can't wait for TEAM to be as commonly known everywhere as CBT is now. Sign me up to volunteer for any promotional efforts if that is ever needed! For now, I will continue to tell everyone, including quite a few other counselor friends, about the podcast and the TEAM model. Sincerely, A new super-fan podcast listener, Holly Miller Hi Holly, Many people are confused, so this is a great question! Rhonda and I will gladly discuss this on our podcast. And thanks for your kind words! david 2. Can you use the Five Secrets with someone in a hypo-manic state? Won't agreeing with their accusations just make things worse? Hi David and Rhonda, Thank you so much for the podcast. I have been an avid listener since the early days of the podcast, and it has helped me through very difficult times and still is. My question is related to my relationship with my future to be divorcee. She is at times in a hypo mania state due to her bipolar illness (which is diagnosed and treated). Is it possible to use the five secrets of effective communication with someone who is in a state of hypo mania? I feel that agreeing with unreasonable accusations and complains is not helping at all and only causes her to hold to these claims. I know that you usually like to relate to specific correspondence but it is more of a general question. I hope you can give me some guidelines on what works and what doesn't. Thanks! Al Hi Al, The devil is in the details. Can you provide a specific example of one thing she said, and exactly what you said next, that you need some help with? General questions about the Five Secrets are NEVER productive. Great question, thanks! david David D. Burns, M.D. Hi Dr. Burns, Thanks for the prompt reply. Well, I was asking a general question if it is possible at all to use the 5 Secrets with someone who is totally unreasonable? She would say "You started to be a father when you decided to divorce" referring to the fact that I am claiming for joint custody. The fact of the matter is that she has been going in and out of long depression periods and manic periods and I had to take care of the kids, maintain the house and keep a job (working from home). I would answer that I was there taking care of the kids all the years and now that I decide to break I want to keep my fair share of the time with them. Prior to that she always claimed that I am not a good spouse although I took care of her during all the years and had at times to reduce my workload in order to be available for the kids and her. So, the claims and accusations are always discounting what I did for her and the kids. And she is not accepting the fact that she has been ill and that this had a toll on the family. She says I need to look forward even though these episodes on hypo

In my workshops and weekly training group for community therapists at Stanford, we often include personal work as a part of the training. The personal work can help in several ways: When you've successfully done your own personal work, you will feel greater joy and energy in your personal life and in your clinical work as well. You will have a much deeper understanding of how TEAM-CBT actually works. You will be able to deliver faster and deeper therapy to your patients. You'll be able to tell your patients, "I know how you feel, because I've been there myself. And what a joy it's going to be to show you the way out of the woods, too!" Those who observe the therapy develop a greater understanding of how the fine points of effective therapy. When the person in the "patient" role has a profound change, we all share that joy and feel inspired by the miracles that can often be accomplished in a relatively short period of time. As they say, "seeing is believing." Rhonda recently surveyed some of our listeners about live therapy we sometimes offer on our podcasts—do you prefer to have the live therapy presented all at once, in an extended, two-hour podcast, or split up over two or more podcasts with expert commentary along the way? Our listeners were split on this. So today we are presenting an actual and dramatic therapy session in its entirely. If you don't have two hours to listen all at once, you can stop after an hour or so, and then return to the last portion when you have more time. And please let us know what you think of this live therapy podcast format! In today's session, we are very grateful to Sarah, a certified TEAM-CBT therapist, for allowing us to share her very personal and powerful session with you. Sarah was having intense anxiety during her sessions with patients, and her anxiety was bordering on panic. This is actually not unusual. In my experience, most shrinks struggle with feelings of insecurity from time to time. But when we shrinks experience insecurities, we often feel strong shame as well, telling ourselves that we "should" have it all together because we are supposedly "experts." I'm no exception! I can remember how anxious I used to feel on Sundays when I was starting out in private practice. I'd tell myself, "Wow, I'm going to have all of these high-powered patients tomorrow, and what if they notice that I don't actually know what I'm doing half of the time!?" But then, halfway through Monday morning, it would dawn on me that my patients didn't seem to notice or care about my flaws, and I'd relax! Although Sarah brought a Daily Mood Log to the session, listing all of the negative thoughts that were triggering her anxiety, along with many other intense negative feelings, the session took an unexpected turn in the direction of the Hidden Emotion Model. We've done several podcasts on this powerful technique before, and now you have the chance to see how it works first-hand! Instead of challenging Sarah's negative thoughts, as we usually do, we asked whether there was something bothering Sarah that she wasn't telling us about, due to her arguably excessive "niceness." I think you'll enjoy listening, and you may learn a little, too! My co-therapists for this session included Dr. Rhonda Barovsky, my beloved and brilliant podcast host, as well as Kevin Cornelius, MFT, a fabulous TEAM therapist whom I've recently featured in a recent blog! Rhonda and I want to thank you, Sarah, once again, for your tremendous courage and generosity! David and Rhonda

Rhonda and David are joined today by Jeremy Karmel who is working with David on a new Feeling Great app. Rhonda begins by reading several amazing emails from fans whose lives have been changed by the podcasts as well as David's books, including Jessica, Tim, and Mike. Thank you, everyone, for such kind and thoughtful comments! This great photo of Rhonda is courtesy of Nancy Mueller, a local photographer who kindly took some pics at my home in Los Altos, California. David describes his upcoming book, Feeling Great, which will be released in September of 2020. It will move well beyond his first book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, all will incorporate all of the latest hi-speed treatment techniques in TEAM-CBT (aka "Feeling Great Therapy.") David describes his excitement about the team he is working with to publish his latest book, including Linda Jackson at PESI (the publishing company), and Jenessa Jackson, his editor. Jeremy describes why he approached David to develop a Feeling Great app. As a Stanford student, he was depressed and had to drop out of school for semester. Antidepressants and talk therapy had done nothing for him, so he was feeling hopeless. Then Jeremy discovered one of Dr. Burns' students, Dr. Matthew May, and recovered in just two weeks, which was mind-blowing. Matt was one of the first practitioners in the world to use the new TEAM-CBT, Jeremy felt a tremendous drive to make these powerful new techniques available to people around the world. David and Rhonda, of course, share this goal! In fact, Rhonda has recently gone to Mexico City as well as India to support the sudden and strong emergence of TEAM-CBT in those countries. Rhonda asks Jeremy many questions about the amazing recovery he experienced in his work with Dr. May, and how he's been doing since. Then Rhonda, Jeremy, and David address a number of intriguing questions about the new app. For example, there is tremendous evidence from research that David's first book, Feeling Good, has significant antidepressant effects. In fact, many published studies have confirmed that more than 50% of depressed individuals will recover or improve dramatically within four weeks if you just give them a copy of the book. Is it possible that an app that incorporates all the great methods in Feeling Good, plus all the new techniques in TEAM-CBT, could be even more effective? And if so, would this mean that an electronic app could even outperform human therapists as well as antidepressant medications? David says that this has been his dream for more than 40 years, and he thinks this is a definite possibility. Jeremy agrees, since the app, now in creation, has the potential to be far more powerful and systematic than reading a book or even going to a therapist. Rhonda asks: "Are you trying to put human therapists out of business?" David believes that there will always be a place for human therapists, since the person to person support and connection is invaluable and desperately needed. However, the Feeling Great app can actually be a friend of human therapists, just as his book, Feeling Good, has been, working hand in hand with therapists helping to accelerate the recovery of their patients. In addition, the app can bring rapid help and relief to millions of people worldwide who cannot afford therapy, and those who simply cannot find effective therapy. David emphasizes the goal of having an entirely free version of the app for people without resources. Rhonda asks: "Will you be doing research as well as self-help "treatment" with the new app?" The answer to that is absolutely, yes, and the implications for incredible research into the causes and treatments for depression, anxiety and relationship problems are immense, especially if thousands or even tens of thousands of individuals use the Feeling Great app. For example, David has developed many psychological assessment instruments to help therapists and patients alike, but the costs and time required to develop and validate even a single short test can be substantial. In contrast, one might get more than enough data to evaluate a new instrument in just one day, which is mind-boggling. In addition, every time someone uses the app, we will learn more and more about what works, and what does not. This type of analysis is vitally important, but practically impossible, or at the very least arduous and confusing, when working with human therapists, due to the complexity of what's happening, and the intense bias of therapists and researchers alike. The computer, by way of contrast, does not mind being wrong and moving in different and more promising directions! Rhonda, Jeremy and David will let all of you know when a beta version of the new app, is available, and hopes that many of you will try it out and let us know what you think! David will also let you know when pre-ordering for his new book, Feeling Great will be available as well! David and Rhonda Thanks for listening to today's podcast! David

Rhonda and David are joined today by Dr. Michael Greenwald, who was in the studio following his recording of last week's podcast. We address a fascinating question submitted by a podcast fan: Sally asks" "How can I help my depressed husband who is leaving me?" Hello Dr David, My husband is going through severe depression and anxiety. He blames me frequently for all the bad decisions he made, and he says he married the wrong woman. He regrets almost every decision he made and says he made the decision [to marry me] under my pressure. Our marriage of 20 years is almost leading to separation. I don't want to separate, but I don't know how I can improve the situation. He doesn't want to go to any doctor. Do you think if I decide to go to TEAM certified therapist, they can work on me to get him out of his depression? If yes, how many sessions will it take? Sally David, Rhonda and Michael discuss this sad and difficult situation that Sally describes. Feeling loved and cared about is vitally important to nearly all of us, and when an important relationship is threatened, it can be extremely painful. It sounds like Sally's husband may be on the verge of leaving her. David describes a powerful and paradoxical strategy he described in Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, that he has often used to help abandoned wives. The approach is the opposite of "chasing," and is based on experimental research on the most effective ways of shaping the behavior of rats! It also sounds like Sally and her husband have some significant difficulties communicating in a loving and supportive way, like nearly all couples who are not getting along, and certainly some couples therapy or consultation might be a useful step. However, the prognosis for couples therapy isn't terribly positive unless both partners are strongly committed to each other, and willing to work on their own problems, as opposed to trying to change or "fix" the other person. We place a strong emphasis on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially the listening skills, when criticized by a patient, family member, colleague, or just about anyone. If Sally committed herself to learning to use these skills—which are NOT easy to learn—she might be able to develop a more loving and satisfying relationship with her husband, whether or not they separate or stay together. David expresses the opinion that her fixation on "helping" or "fixing" him might be misguided, and might actually irritate him and drive him away. Rhonda, Michael and David illustrate David's "Intimacy Exercise," which is a way of learning to use the Five Secrets, and they practice with three of the criticisms Sally has heard from her husband: "You pressured me into marrying you." "You're to blame for all the bad decisions I've made." "I married the wrong woman." After each exchange, the person playing Sally's role receives a grade (A, B, C, etc.) along with a brief analysis of why, followed by role-reversals. These role play demonstrations might be interesting and useful for you, too, because you'll see how this exercise works, and your eyes will also be opened to just how challenging it can be to respond to a painful criticism in a skillful way, and how mind-blowing it is when you do it right. You will also see that trained mental health professionals often make mistakes when learning these skills, and how you can increase your skills through this type of practice. David emailed Sally with some additional resources that could be helpful to her. Hi Sally, Thank you so much for your question, and for giving us the permission to read and discuss your question on a podcast. We will, however, change your name to protect your identity. For referrals for treatment, you can check the referral page on my website, or go to the website of the Feeling Good Institute. There may be some excellent therapists in your area, too. I would recommend the recent Feeling Good Podcast on "How to Help, and How NOT to Help." . The idea is that listening is sometimes far more effective and respectful than trying to "help" someone who is angry with you. Also, the podcasts on the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, starting with #65, could be helpful, along with my book, Feeling Good Together. There's also search function on almost every page of my website, and if you type in "Five Secrets," you'll get a wealth of free resources. Your husband might benefit from my book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, available on Amazon for less than $10. Research studies indicate that more than 50% of depressed individuals improve substantially within four weeks of being given a copy of this book, with no other treatment. However, the depressed individual must be looking for help, and it's not clear to me whether the treatment is more your idea, or his idea. You seem to be asking for training in how to treat your husband. Perhaps, instead, you could learn to respond to him more skillfully and effectively using the Five Secrets. Le

In today's podcast, Rhonda and David are honored to interview Dr. Michael Greenwald, a courageous clinical psychologist who helped make the Atlanta Intensive a truly amazing event. Michael volunteered for the live demonstration to work on his lifelong problem with social anxiety, which seems to be a popular topic these days, and likely a personal problem for many podcast fans. My co-therapist was Thai-An Truong, a highly respected TEAM therapist and TEAM therapy trainer from Oklahoma City. Thai-An also joins today's podcast via Zoom and dialogues with Michael for the first time since the intensive. The session with Michael was powerful and inspiring, with a good 50% of the audience in tears (of joy) at the end. Michael recorded the session on his cell phone, but the quality was not up to the quality of our podcast recordings, so he agreed to fly up to the "Murietta Studios" from his home in Los Angeles so we could at least describe what happened and share the magic with you. If we can find a way to do some sound enhancement on the cellphone recording of the session, we will likely publish it as a separate mid-week podcast for those who like to hear the incredible therapeutic process unfolding in real time. If you review Michael's Daily Mood Log at the start of the session, you'll see that he was feeling depressed, anxious, ashamed, worthless, lonely, self-conscious, discouraged and stuck, and all of these feelings were intense. In addition, he told us that he wasn't feeling much joy, self-esteem, pleasure or satisfaction in his life. But the strongest feeling was anxiety. He said that coming up on stage to face his fears was an enormous challenge, and that this was the first time he'd ever done something like this. We will do T = Testing again at the end to see what changed, and by how much. We'll also ask Michael to complete the Empathy and Helpfulness surveys, so we can find out how he experienced Thai-An and David during the session. You may be saddened by the upsetting event Michael recorded at the top of his Daily Mood Log, which was "sitting with my son and trying to make conversation with him." He said their conversations were always pretty superficial, and that he would typically leave the room after short interactions with his son because he felt so anxious. Here's an example of a typical exchange. Michael's son, a graduate student in clinical psychology, was working on his applications to internship programs. Michael: What's up? Son: I'm working on my applications to internship programs. Michael: That's good. How's it going? Are you getting them in on time? Son: Yah, it's fine. Michael: Are you completing them? Do you want me to look at them? Son: All fine. If you review the negative thoughts on Michael's Daily Mood Log, you'll see that he felt like a failure as a father because he did not know how to get close to his son or how to tell him just how much he loved him. He was telling himself things like this: Something is wrong with me because I can't talk to him. 100% I am failing him as a father. 100% He deserves so much better than me. 100% He must wish he had a different father. 95% And more. I was sad to see that Michael had been beating up on himself pretty badly for years, and I'm pretty sure that the therapists in the audience felt the same way, because it was so clear that he was a tremendously humble, giving and loving father who was totally devoted to his sons. I found myself thinking, "My gosh, I wish I'd been half the father that Michael is!" The E = Empathy phase of the session lasted about 30 minutes. Michael indicated that Thai-An and I had done a good job, and that he felt understood and accepted, so we went on to A = Assessment of Resistance in a step-by-step manner, using these tools: The "Invitation Step" to find out if he was ready to roll up his sleeves and get to work on his social anxiety The "Miracle Cure" question to find out what he hoped would happen in the session The "Magic Button," to see if he'd want all of his negative thoughts and feelings to disappear suddenly, just by pushing it "Positive Reframing," asking Michael these two questions about each negative thought or feeling: "What does this negative thought or feeling show about you and your core values that's positive and awesome?" "What are some benefits, or advantages, of this negative thought or feeling?" At first, these questions didn't make any sense to Michael, since he was so used to thinking about his negative thoughts and feelings in a negative light, thinking they were "bad" and were the result of some kind of personality defect or mental disorder, like "social anxiety disorder" described in the DSM5. This is also the hardest part of TEAM-CBT for therapists to learn, because it is so anti-intuitive. But as the list of positives grew, Michael began to "get it," and we could actually see his mood lightening up before our very eyes. It was so cool, and this was the first hint the audience had that somethin

Rhonda, Fabrice, and David discuss psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, Fabrice's wonderful new marriage, his fascinating new podcast (http://peaceatlast.us/), and more. David and Rhonda are thrilled to have our beloved friend and colleague, Dr. Fabrice Nye, as the special guest on today's podcast. Many of you will remember Fabrice as the man who gave birth to the Feeling Good Podcast, and acted as host for the first 133 podcasts. Fabrice describes many events since he turned over the reins to Rhonda earlier this year, including his recent marriage and move to the beautiful but fire-ravaged Russian River area roughly 100 miles north of San Francisco. However, Fabrice still maintains his clinical practice on a part time basis in Redwood City, in the San Francisco Bay area. The main focus of today's podcast is Fabrice's participation in promising new research on the treatment of PTSD. The participants in the study are veterans receiving psychotherapy that is assisted by treatment with MDMA during extended treatment session. MDMD is also known as the party drug, Ecstasy. However, the MDMA used in the research is chemically pure, whereas Ecstasy is generally obtained on the street and may not be pure. Fabrice describes MDMA as an "empathogen" that makes people more loving and more in touch with their emotions. This can make it easier for patients with PTSD to talk about their traumatic experiences and painful feelings, which people with PTSD usually try to avoid. Avoidance makes all forms of anxiety much worse, where as exposure is usually beneficial. Patients in the study received three treatment sessions, and a preliminary analysis indicated that one third of them improved to the point that they no longer had symptoms severe enough to be diagnosed with PTSD. Further studies are in progress, including a study with a control group, as well as follow-up studies to find out whether the improvement continued and whether some of the patients relapsed. Fabrice also describes the fascinating new trend in treatment of a variety of conditions with psychedelics, including psilocybin, mescaline, and ayawauska. I expressed my personal support for this trend, as these substances have been used by hundreds, if not thousands of years, for spiritual purposes by indigenous people throughout the world. And perhaps the coolest thing we learned was that Fabrice will be starting his own terrific podcast entitled PeaceAtLast.us about the time today's podcast will be published. PeaceAtLast.us will focus on the overlap between spirituality and psychotherapy, a topic that I have always found extremely interesting and helpful in my own clinical work using TEAM-CBT. You might want to check out the new Fabrice podcast! I know that Rhonda and I will! After the podcast, we received the following email from Fabrice, which includes many resources for those of you wanting more information about psychedelics and psychotherapy, as well as his new podcast. Hi David and Rhonda, It felt so good to be reunited with you for an hour. Wish we didn't have to cut it so short. Here are some of the links that you may want to provide to your listeners. Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), which sponsors and funds the Phase 3 trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD: https://maps.org/ Michal & Annie Mithoefer, lead researchers for the study: https://mapspublicbenefit.com/staff/michael-mithoefer-m-d/ Psychedelic research at Johns Hopkins University: https://hopkinspsychedelic.org/ Roland Griffiths, main researcher for psilocybin studies at JHU: https://hopkinspsychedelic.org/griffiths List of federal clinical trials involving psychedelics in the U.S.: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=&term=psychedelic&cntry=US Article on how to have a legal psychedelic experience (but not necessarily a safe one): https://psychedelic.support/resources/legal-ways-to-pursue-psychedelic-experiences/ And finally... Here's how to find my new podcast, to be launched on February 6, 2020: http://peaceatlast.us/ Fabrice Nye [email protected]

Rhonda and David discuss two challenging questions submitted by listeners like you. Question #1: Cindy asks: My suicidal daughter refuses to talk to me! What can I do? Comment: Dear David, I stumbled upon you teaching in another podcast a few months ago. Immediately I was stunned by how much your words echoed in my mind. I have listened to your book three times in Audible and many of your podcasts. You Changed my life!!! I am much more relaxed now and I can sleep!!! I talked about you with my massage therapist and she bought your book for her daughter (who has anxiety attacks) and her niece. Her daughter is an aspiring artist who said that she would buy your book and give them away to teens when she becomes famous. I now ask you to change another life, that of my daughter's. She has been depressed for more than 20 years, suicidal (bought a noose, watches suicide movies, talked about ways to kill herself) and no therapists could help. We went to therapy together this past summer and it only ended that she abruptly canceled and is no longer responding to me by any means: phone, text, card, or email. The last time I saw her was late August and she was very down and had very poor personal hygiene. I have since sent her a loving text at least every other day, I offer to drive to her city (an hour away) to have dinner with her, I sincerely apologized for everything I could think of that I have done wrong since she was a child, I sent gifts to her by mail, I invite her to come for holidays, I ask her cousins to call (she did respond to them). No response to me at all. I am wondering how to communicate with a loved one who just totally shut you off. Always your fan, Cindy Thank you, Cindy. Sorry to hear about your daughter, very concerning. My heart goes out to you. Our own daughter had a rough time as a teenager, too, but now is doing great. I hope things evolve with your daughter, too. This podcast may help: https://feelinggood.com/2019/10/28/164-how-to-help-and-how-not-to-help/ as well as this one: https://feelinggood.com/2019/02/04/126-how-to-communicate-with-someone-who-refuses-to-talk-to-you/ The first podcast highlights common errors in trying to "help" someone who is hurting, and emphasizes how to respond more effectively, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. The second podcast illustrates how to get people to open up using one of the advanced secrets called "Multiple Choice Empathy / Multiple Choice Disarming. My book, Feeling Good Together, explains these techniques in detail, with practice exercises, and includes an entire chapter on how to talk to someone who refuses to talk to you. You can learn more on my book page. (https://feelinggood.com/books/). Some support from a mental health professional might also be helpful to you, as these techniques sound simple, but are actually challenging to master. Your daughter might also benefit from my book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy (https://feelinggood.com/books/). It is not a substitute for treatment from a mental health professional, but research studies indicate that more than 60% of the people who read it improve significantly in just four weeks. It is inexpensive, and I've linked to it if you want to take a look. All the best, David Question #2: Lorna asks: How can I deal with my jealousy? Comment: Hi David, I've recently discovered your books and your podcast and CBT has really been helping me in my personal life. I really want to thank you for all the amazing work you do!! The issue I'm having however seems to still really get my moods down and I was wondering if perhaps you could offer some general advice via the podcast. I'm in a great relationship but the ex-girlfriend of my partner has recently moved back to the city where we live and now we are in similar social circles. They were together for a very long time and now I'm really struggling with the prospect of spending time with her. When we all spend time together, it's actually fine, but afterwards I really struggle with thinking about them together, getting to know her and thinking about her personality and how we compare. I think most people would find this uncomfortable, but it really has triggered a downward spiral for me. My partner and I argued about it and I struggle to let things go that were said in arguments. Do you have any advice on dealing with a situation of an ex-partner being on the scene and perhaps how to not dwell on things that were said during arguments? Thanks, Lorna Hi Lorna, Thanks, might work. What does this mean: "Do you have any advice on dealing with a situation of an ex-partner being on the scene and perhaps how to not dwell on things that were said during arguments?" The rest of the email seems to suggest feelings of jealousy, insecurity, and so forth, as if she is a threat to your current relationship. is this correct? David Hi David, Thanks so much for getting back to me! I don't actually think she is a threat to our relationship, and don't feel

Rhonda and David address a question from Karolina, a therapist in Poland who was failing with a depressed patient who felt totally convinced he was a "useless" human being. I think you will find their discussion of this case fascinating, as it deals with the cause of practically ALL therapeutic failure, and illustrates the solution al well, using TEAM-CBT methods and concepts. Today's podcast is intended for therapists and patients alike! For the show notes, we are including the email David received from Karolina, as well as his initial response. Dear Dr. Burns, I've been listening to your podcast for 6 months now and it's been so helpful with my work as a therapist as well as in my personal life. I'm starting to develop a habit of considering every unwanted state with a "what does it say that's awesome about me?" and I'm much happier now :). I'm wondering if you'd consider helping me some more. I have a client who's been struggling with depression for many years. At the moment he's doing ok and his mood is up. Lately the topic of his uselessness came up again and he's willing to work on that. He said he'll consider the possibility that he's not a useless human being and asked me to not to dismiss the possibility that he is - that's how he'll know that I'm not just trying to cheer him up. It's been bugging me ever since. Although I've agreed, I really can't find in me any part that is ready to think that. I strongly believe he's not a useless person. I can't imagine labeling anyone in that way and in his case it feels so personal as I like him very much and I care about him. I'm starting to have dreams about our next session when I fail him by trying to convince him to think as I do. How can I be open about our conclusion when my mind is already fixed? Any thoughts on this would be deeply appreciated. Best wishes from Poland Karolina Hi Karolina, Thanks! The term has no meaning. It is just a vague put down, like what a bully might say. I might ask him what time of day he was feeling useless, and then have him fill out a Daily Mood Log for that moment, step by step. We can only help him at one specific moment. You can use a large number of techniques but must first get an A on Empathy, and then do effective paradoxical agenda setting, starting with the Paradoxical Invitation Step and then asking "what type of help would you be looking for?" then you can do the Magic Button and Positive Reframing. All of the negative thoughts and feelings on the Daily Mood Log will be advantageous and will show something about him that is awesome and positive. You should be able to generate a list of at least 25 overwhelming positives. Then you can use the Magic Dial. When you get to M = Methods, you can put the thought, "I am a useless human being" in the middle of a recovery circle, and then select a minimum of 16 methods to challenge it. You can start with Identify the Distortions. There are likely at least 9 distortions in the thought, including AON, OG, MF, DP, MAG / MIN; ER; LAB; SH; SB. You can try, "let's define terms," and ask what's the definition of a "useless human being"? You'll find that no matter how you try to define it, The definition will apply to all human beings. The definition will apply to no human beings. The definition does not apply to him. The definition does not make sense. The definition is based on some kind of arbitrary cut-off points. You can do this as a role-play, being a close friend trying to find out if you're useless, and asking him for guidance on how to find out. You can do the Paradoxical Double Standard Techniques, Downward Arrow, Hidden Emotion, Externalization of Voices, Acceptance Paradox / Self-Defense Paradigm, Examine the Evidence, Semantic Method, and on and on. The problem is NOT that he's a "useless human being" but rather that he's obsessing and wasting time on a meaningless construct, and beating up on himself. The whole key to success will be agenda setting. You can take the position that maybe this is not something that he really wants to challenge, since it may be working for him, and also reflects all those 25 wonderful things about him. The whole key to success will be agenda setting. You can take the position that maybe this is not something that he really wants to challenge, since it may be working for him, and also reflects all those 25 wonderful things about him. Remember that just about 99.9% of therapeutic failure results from Agenda Setting errors. Is this something you want to help him with, or something he is desperately asking you for help with? I am almost 100% positive that this is your agenda, not his. In fact, your need to "help" him with this may actually keep him stuck. In fact, here is the proof. You write: "I'm starting to have dreams about our next session when I fail him by trying to convince him to think as I do. How can I be open about our conclusion when my mind is already fixed?" If you don't understand this, I recommend some supervision from a T

People in the featured photo for today's podcast. Back row: Amir, David, Rhonda, and Dave. Front row: Steve and Barb This will be our first podcast of 2020, so we wanted to make it a really good one! Rhonda, Dave and I are very proud to welcome Steve Reinhard and his wonderful wife, Barb, on today's podcast. Steve and Barbara flew in from Colorado to join the Sunday hike and do this podcast in the "Murietta Studios" following the hike. Steve is a former electrical contractor and lay minister, and is the first certified life coach to be admitted into the TEAM-CBT certification program at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, Ca, (link). The following is a heart-warming email I received from Steve prior to the show. Subject: Re: looking forward Hi David, Woohoo! We are partners in crime! I'm feeling super comfortable now. Thanks David for your generous invitation! I'm happy to jump on any of the 3 options you suggested for the show. I'd love to hear your stories, especially those of undistorted sadness where you celebrated with tears, aware of the suffering we folks tend to keep hidden. I cry a lot these days, laugh a lot too. In that regard I'd love to have my own personal Ask David session. David, I love the old, demented, weak human guy, while admiring the pioneering, genius who teaches so clearly & humanly. My questions wouldn't be so much for me to learn or be taught but to connect with you. I'm crying as I write. As a listener I want to connect with the human, David. May or may not be something you want to do. We have loads to interact with. Yep, I take a "spiritual " approach & would love to interact with you being anti-religious. Listeners might find this helpful & it sounds fun to me. A great opportunity for me to experience a death of the ego & the acceptance paradox which I have found liberating before I knew what it was called. I'd love to talk about what it's like to be diagnosed with blood cancer and holey bones & some of the nutty things we say to each other when we don't know what to say. Empathy in the Five Secrets way is extremely rare from my distorted perspective. Aging & being willing to challenge the many shoulds & shouldn'ts that accompany things being different than they were last year would be fun to talk about. I can't keep track of the # of times folks repeat "getting old is hell", same with cancer, vision problems, walking problems, drug side effects. I would love to hear your stories & experience as an old demented guy who can't walk as fast as he did a couple years ago. Thanks for your generous invitation. I still find it surprising that I get to have this experience with you all. I'm really looking forward to today's show. Steve We began the podcast with a discussion of the role of lay therapists in the field of mental health. Coaching is newly emerging field of counseling that does not require graduate work in psychiatry, psychology, social work, or counseling. In the past, coaches have not been permitted to enter the TEAM-CBT certification program. However, Dr. Angela Krumm, who is the head of the FGI certification program changed that policy specifically so that Steve—and now, other certified coaches as well--can be certified in TEAM-CBT, and I applaud this change. The role of lay therapists has always been highly controversial. I can recall that when I was in college in the 1960s, there was a lively debate about so-called "lay psychoanalysts." Previously, you had to be an MD to be a psychoanalyst, but over time, non-MDs were permitted to become psychoanalysts. To my way of thinking, this debate has always been more about power and the protection of territory than about skill or the capacity to heal. Now we are seeing the same questions being raised about certified life coaches. In my experience, graduate training doesn't always guarantee that someone will be a skillful therapist, and sometimes the opposite is true. In fact, in my experience, the LESS previous training therapists have, the easier they are to train in TEAM-CBT, because they don't have so much training they have to "unlearn." The Buddhists say that an empty cup is better than a full cup, because the full cup spills over when you try to pour the wine. Of course, there's a downside, too, since therapists can also be sometimes exploitative and can be hurtful to patients. This includes coaches as well as mental health professionals with graduate training. Next, we asked Steve about the role of spirituality in his TEAM-CBT counseling, since he is a also a lay minister. I am convinced that the spiritual dimension can be important and powerful in therapy, and that at the moment of our deepest change, the change is not only psychological, emotional, and behavioral, but also spiritual, because we may suddenly "see" things from a much deeper perspective. Much in TEAM-CBT is easily integrated with spirituality. For example, the Acceptance Paradox is an inherently spiritual technique that can play an important role in re

This will be our last podcast of 2019, so we wanted to make it something special. We also want to thank all of you for your support over the past year, and wish you all the very best in 2020! Thanks to all of you, we surpassed 1.5 million downloads this year, and will likely hit 2 million in the spring of 2020. If you like the Feeling Good Podcasts, please tell your friends and family members, as word of mouth is our best marketing by far. In addition, if you are a member of any mailing lists, send them this link to the list of all the Feeling Good Podcasts. On any given day, 30% of human beings are feeling depressed and / or anxious, so you'll be doing lots of people a favor, since the podcasts, as you know, are entirely free. We are joined today by Amir Sabouri, PhD, MD, a highly esteemed neurologist from Iran with extensive medical training in the United States in addition to his PhD research in molecular immunology in Japan. Amir specializes in the treatment of horrific neuromuscular disorders such as ALS (the dreaded Lou Gehrig's Disease) at one of our local Kaiser Hospitals here in the San Francisco Bay Area. In today's riveting and inspiring interview, Amir describes how he discovered that, in spite of his extensive technical training, his strongest and most effective medicine by far is sometimes a healing dose of humility and compassion, delivered with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. We are also joined by our wonderful host, Dr. Rhonda Barovsky, as well as my friend and neighbor, Dave Fribush, who has joined many of our podcasts recently, as well as Steve Reinhard, a certified coach and TEAM-CBT therapist who flew in from Colorado for the Sunday hike and podcasts. Steve will be the featured guest on next week podcast, along with his wife, Barbara, on the topic of "Sadness as Celebration." Back row: Amir, David, Rhonda, and Dave Fribush. Front row: Steve and Barb Amir and I have had a friendship and professional collaboration that goes back several years, when Amir first joined one my Sunday hikes, along with his wife, Dr. Sepideh Bajestan, PhD, MD, who was one of my students during her psychiatric residency at Stanford. In the past couple years, Amir has attended the Sunday hikes regularly and has worked hard to learn and master TEAM-CBT, especially the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, which have begun to play a huge role in his clinical and professional work. Amir begins with a description of the first time he did personal work on one of the Sunday hikes. At the time, Amir was struggling with feelings of sadness, guilt and inadequacy about his role as a physician and neurologist. That's because, in spite of his incredible background training and research in molecular immunology and neuromuscular pathology, the bottom line was that he had no cure to offer his many patients he had to diagnose with incurable diseases, such as ALS, and he confessed that he often felt like a failure in his attempts to help these unfortunate patients and their families. However, by looking at his own negative thoughts, and pinpointing the distortions in them, he was able to challenge and crush those thoughts, and accept the incredible value of the immense caring and compassion he brought to his work with his patients. The change he experienced on that hike was quite pronounced, and was arguably his first "enlightenment." It was a very moving experience for me, too. Next, Amir tackled the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, and worked extremely hard to practice and master these techniques, which have also been invaluable in his medical work. He describes two recent patient encounters where these skills were invaluable. One involved an angry new patient who aggressively criticized Amir from the very moment he walked in the door. The many also criticized bitterly all the other doctors he'd seen. He complained that he didn't want to be there, that nobody could help, and that nobody cared about him. Amir responded using the Five Secrets of Communication, empathizing and disarming hat the man was saying, and using "I Feel" Statements, Feeling Empathy, Stroking, and Inquiry as well. The man suddenly began to sob and share his deepest feelings throughout his entire encounter with Amir. At the end, Amir was concerned that he'd given him "nothing" other than his efforts at skillful listening using the Five Secrets, and was afraid the man might issue yet another complaint. One hour later, Amir received a touching email from the patient, filled with praise and gratitude, and he said he felt hope for the first time! We talked about the paradox of "giving nothing," just listening with compassion, without trying to help or fix. and how this is often the greatest gift of all. Amir also talked about his interaction with a young woman who suffered horrific complications from a powerful medication that Amir had prescribed for her neurologic problem, and Amir was flooded with guilt and fear, thinking that he had fa

Happy Holidays to everyone! Today's podcast is nestled between Hanukkah (on the 22nd) and Christmas Eve (on the 24th.) We send our warmest greetings to all of our listeners of all religious faiths. Today, Rhonda, Dave and David discuss three questions you have submitted: Does emotional trauma cause brain damage? Do you have to have a good cry when something traumatic happens? Why does avoidance make anxiety worse? 1. Is it true that emotional trauma affects the brain? Hi again Dr Burns, I love the 5 secrets, and have had great success in my new job by implementing them! I keep listening to all the 5 secrets podcasts over and over to keep it fresh for me and really loved the podcast on advanced techniques. My question today is about how trauma affects the brain. 'Trauma' is the new buzz word in education, and psychologists are creating presentations geared for teachers and other school professionals that claim the "trauma-affected brain" is altered and cannot learn as easily. They allege imaging technology can prove this. Do you know if PTSD/trauma actually impacts a person's ability to learn? I thought that it was the negative thoughts that interfere with attitudes toward learning, not an actual brain impairment. Another term that is used frequently is "intergenerational trauma", meaning if my parent experienced trauma, it could be passed down to me and therefore impact my ability to cope with life stressors. Any thoughts? Any credible research you are aware of? In the Ask David, could you also include your opinion on how Adverse Childhood Experiences impact people's mental health and ability to cope? There are a range of experiences cited in studies from moving around a lot in childhood to witnessing a murder to molestation. After listening to your podcast episode 147 (Garry with PTSD) I was satisfied with the effectiveness of TEAM to treat trauma rapidly. But then I remembered a documentary I had seen about 'feral children' who were extremely neglected as children, and I wondered if there are some cases where the psychology or potential of a person is forever impacted by an adverse childhood experience. Your take? All the best, Jackie Educational Consultant Mountaintop School Division Answer David finds these buzzwords and buzz-theories somewhat misleading, and sometimes even pseudo-scientific. He has treated large numbers of patients struggling with the effects of severe trauma, and has found that trauma patients are usually the easiest to treat and the quickest to learn. David like to focus on rapid healing, using TEAM-CBT, rather than sending people the message that they are impaired, damaged or defective because of some emotionally traumatic experience. In fact, nearly all humans have experienced quite a lot of traumatic events, which can range from mild to extreme. And lots of us have some degree of brain damage. My brain (David Burns) was squashed at birth, for example, and there are certain cognitive functions that I'm not very good at. For example, for some reason, I can't often find something that's right in front of me, and I have lots of trouble remembering names and faces. I just try to accept my many shortcoming and work around them. The problem is rarely our flaws or imperfections, but rather the distorted negative messages we give ourselves; messages that generate anxiety, fear, inadequacy, shame, and so forth. Of course, animals and humans with traumatic experiences at a young age, or any age, may struggle with fear and may seem, as you say, "feral." My wife and I (David) have adopted many feral cats, and have found that consistent warmth and love can lead to dramatic changes and the development of trust. We all have a history, and every person's story and suffering deserve respect and profound compassion. 2. What's displacement? Is it true that you have to have a good cry when something traumatic happens? Hi there again, I've been practicing TEAM-CBT for a year while at the same time studying Dr. Gordon Neufeld's theories on the need for "tears of futility" for true healing (including adaptation, maturation and development of resilience). He states that if we only work on the cognitive level, we risk to just displace the symptoms in our clients and they would miss out on maturation and adaptation. I'm wondering if you have ever seen a displacement of the symptom in treating your patients with TEAM-CBT? In most live sessions I've seen with you you seem to have this gift / skill to make it safe for the client to let the tears flow and that this often seem to be the moment when a breakthrough is about to happen. So I wonder if you think the client needs to shed tears or at least feel the feelings of futility or "true sadness" before we should move forward to methods (in addition to getting perfect empathy scores)? And what role you think tears play in the healing process? Would love to hear your thoughts on this! (See my last e-mail if you want more details to why I'm asking.) Thanks, Warmly

Today, Rhonda rejoins us as host after a three week hiatus! My neighbor, Dave Fribush, joins us as well, as we answer two thought-provoking questions! Is it possible to treat "burnout?" Can negative feelings can make physical pain worse? 1. Does "burnout" exist? How do you treat it? Comment: Hi! I have been listening to your podcast for a while now and it has helped, and has encouraged me and made me feel less alone. Thank for your work and sharing your podcast with us! My situation now is very much defined by my burnout syndrome (a medical diagnosis in Sweden, not sure about the US) and/or depression. From what I've learnt there is no evidence of CBT as a treatment for burnout - really nothing other than adaptations at your workplace. What triggered me to "hit the wall" was studying too hard and not giving my body and mind time to recover. Do you have any thoughts on burnout and effective treatment of it? I feel I have made huge progress in the underlying reasons to my burnout like perfectionism, performance-based self-esteem, figuring out how I want my life to be, who I am etc (although the last one is a big one!). All this with the help of CBT and other sorts of therapy. What remains is mental fatigue, on and off anxiety, not being able to focus and hardly any mental or emotional resilience. Through healthcare, you are basically treated for depression, the treatment being anti-depressants. I've been on sick leave full time for over four years now, am in my late twenties and am constantly frustrated, sad and feeling stuck. I want to get going towards this life I now know that I want but I don't seem to get any better. I eat and sleep well and exercise. I realize this could be a complete medical question but nobody REALLY seems to know anything about burnout. A long question but hey ho :) Would be grateful for any thoughts you might have, thanks again! Sincerely, Elisabeth Hi Elisabeth, I'm sorry to hear that you've been struggling for some time, but I'm glad you've been making progress, and I'm so glad you wrote to me. To my way of thinking, there is really no such "thing" as burnout. Depression, anxiety, anger, and other negative feelings do exist. Burnout is just a vague buzzword for feeling upset when something upsetting has happened. When I was in clinical practice, I saw as many as 17 depressed and anxious patients in one day, and as the day went on, I just got higher and higher and more energetic. That's because I loved what I was doing and felt I had something to offer, a lot, actually. I only got "burned out," or unhappy, if I felt I had said something that hurt someone's feelings, or if I had not done a good job for someone. Then I got really upset, but it was my thoughts, and not what I was doing, that caused my feelings. That, of course, is the cognitive model. I found it helpful to zero in on one moment when I was feeling depressed, anxious, or "burned out," and to do a Daily Mood Log focusing on that moment. I'll attach one to this email in case you are interested. I've also included a completed one so you can see how it works. This is not a similar case, just something I grabbed by way of illustration. Thanks, David (a fellow Swede) On the show, I describe one of the most stressful experiences of my career, when I appeared on a Philadelphia TV show with Maury Povich, and a patient of mine threatened to commit suicide. Fortunately, the story had a surprise ending that was very positive. So my message is one of hope. The idea is to focus on some specific thing you are upset about, as opposed to getting overly focused on a concept like "burnout." I think we all feel pretty exhausted at times, and if you've been studying or working too hard, it definitely makes sense to take a break to take care of yourself. When I transferred from my residency training program at Highland Hospital in Oakland, California, to the residency program at the University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, one of my supervisors gave me this advice--he told me to make sure I set aside at least one half a day a week to stare at walls. What he meant was that I was working intensely, 24/7, during the first two years of my residency, and he wanted to make sure I gave myself a break to rest from time to time. So every Sunday afternoon I just watched football games on TV, often with a cat on my lap. This was refreshing and helpful, and my supervisor's advice helped me avoid feeling guilty for not working 24/7! 2. More on physical pain. Is it really true that negative feelings can make physical pain worse? We recently did a podcast with Dr. David Hanscom, a back surgeon who emphasized non-surgical treatments for back pain that can be surprisingly helpful. In that podcast, I described my research indicating that 50% of the pain we experience can the result of negative feelings, such as depression, anxiety, and anger. And if you can reduce or eliminate those negative feelings, your physical pain will often diminish substantially,

Today, Rhonda could not join us due to the religious holidays, so we have recorded several podcasts with my wonderful neighbor, Dave Fribush, as host. In addition, we are joined by Michael Simpson, a friend and colleague from New York. Dave, Michael and I answer two thought-provoking questions! 1. Working with Abused Women Hi David (and Rhonda!), I want to start out by stating how much I love your podcast. It has helped me understand myself, and, in turn, has made me a much more effective counselor. I'm a drug and alcohol counselor, working here in Los Angeles. I work primarily with women from 18 - 25 years old who have aged out of the foster care system. They are an endearing group of women, as I know you are aware (I've heard you speak of working with this population), and they just want to feel loved and worthy. However, their deep-seated beliefs of being unworthy of good things happening in their lives prevents them from attaining their goals of getting jobs, getting their children back, and gaining housing. These deep-seated beliefs are based on mistreatment by their families of origin, and their subsequent experiences in the social services system. Most were sexually abused or physically abused as children, taken out of their homes, then bounced around from one Foster Care family to the next. Despite my best efforts, the majority of these women go back out to the streets just shy of completing our 6- to 12-month treatment program. Once on the streets they return to drug dealing, prostitution, and crime. After which, if they are lucky, they get picked up and incarcerated. Many die on the streets of drug overdoses or murder. I'm using all of the tools I can to help them change their core beliefs, but it is challenging to say the least! My question to you is—is there a book coming out which goes into depth about T.E.A.M. therapy? I need to become the most effective counselor I can in order to help these women recover and lead normal lives. Thank you so much for your help! Keep up the good work. You are definitely saving lives!! Pennie Hi Pennie, Thank you so much for your question. I did work with this population at the Presbyterian / University of Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia, and found the patients to be incredibly rewarding and hungry for help, love, and connection, as you have said. I'm sure it is heart-breaking for you to see so many fall short, continue to struggle, and even die on the streets. I found this population to be particularly easy and rewarding to work with because they seemed so grateful to be getting any kind of help at all. Many of our patients were homeless, and about a quarter of them could not read or write. We gave them more than eight hours of cognitive group therapy every day in a residential treatment setting, so they got 40 to 50 hours of therapy per week. The program was very inexpensive to run, and was more or less free to the participants, paid for by some type of medical assistance insurance, as well as by our hospital. Most patients showed dramatic changes within three or four days. The average length of stay was something like a week or ten days or so. In today's podcast, I describe a patient in one of our groups, a woman who was severely depressed. She thought of herself as "weak" and "a bad mother." She recovered from her depression in just 20 minutes or so when I used a TEAM-CBT method called "The Paradoxical Double Standard Technique. My book, Ten Days to Self-Esteem, is the program we used at my hospital in Philadelphia when working with this population. It is a simplified version of CBT, and it is a ten-step program that can be administered individually or in groups (which I prefer.) It is written using simple words for individuals with little education. We gave a copy to every patient entering our program, and found that really boosted our outcomes. The hospital purchased them in quantities of 50 or more, and got the wholesale price, which made the books cheaper than having to copy the materials for the patients. There's also a companion Ten Days to Self-Esteem, The Leader's Manual, that you can get as an eBook. It shows the group leaders how to set the groups up and what to do at each of the ten group sessions. There are many additional resources for you, if you'd like to learn more about CBT, as well as TEAM-CBT. First, my new book, Feeling Great, is now at the publisher, PESI, and should be coming out in 2020. I'll update you as more details become available. But yes, it does have all the new TEAM-CBT stuff in it. It is intended for therapists as well as the general public, and features lots of written exercises while you read, so you can really master the many new methods and concepts. My psychotherapy eBook, Tools, Not Schools, of Therapy, is for therapists, and we use it in all of our TEAM-CBT training programs. It is an interactive book that shows you how to do TEAM-CBT in a step-by-step way. this book also features many challenging interactive wri

Today's podcast features Michael Simpson, a friend and colleague of Dr Burns, who describes his personal battle with social anxiety. Dave Fribush will again be our host, since Rhonda is celebrating the important religious holiday of Yom Kippur with her family. Michael first became acquainted with David when he read David's book, When Panic Attacks, which he says was SO GOOD! But when he went to David's website, www.feelinggood.com, he was shocked to see so much terrific free content for people, but the website was not well-presented. In fact, it was pretty sucky! So, Michael sent David a brief video, pointing out all the problems, and offered to redo the website in exchange for some help with his social anxiety—and the relationship took off from there! Michael describes his own experiences with social anxiety, which amounts to slight to moderate nervousness, tension and dis-ease during interactions with people. There is no apparent pattern to his triggers: he can become anxious (or not) around friends, strangers, men, women he is attracted to, and women he is not attracted to. He experiences the anxiety physically: butterflies in his stomach, tension around his face and a general tightness in his body. He is usually unaware of his negative thoughts, which involve fears of looking weak, being judged by others because of his anxiety, and being unable to connect with others while he is feeling anxious. He usually tries to hide all of these fears. In addition, his social anxiety does not appear to inhibit him — he is a tall, handsome, articulate man, and when he confides his social anxiety to others, they are usually extremely surprised that someone who outwardly appears so confident could possibly be struggling with social anxiety. Michael describes one of his first "homework assignments" from Dr. Burns, who suggested that instead of hiding his anxiety, he should approach attractive women he encounters on the street and simply tell them that sometimes he becomes anxious when speaking to attractive women. The purpose of the exercise was to confront his fear (Exposure) and do a real-world experiment to find out if his fears of being judged are realistic. Opening up about his anxiety was very challenging for Michael, to say the least, given that he had spent most of his life trying to hide it. He describes walking around Times Square in New York City, procrastinating, and trying to muster up the courage to follow through on his assignment. So, he finally approached a woman from Brazil whom he found exceptionally attractive. He kind of had to chase after her to stop her to tell her. We can call her Adrianna. Adrianna did not judge or reject Michael, and the two of them seemed hit it off tremendously. And they talked and hung out together every day. Michael described their relationship as one of the deepest and most fulfilling relationships he'd ever experienced. He was amazed by Adrianna's warmth, compassion, and openness, and appreciated the respect and love she conveyed to everyone she met. Michael also describes visiting her and spending a week together in Brazil after she returned home. One of the take-home messages for Michael was that vulnerability, rather than trying to be cool, or trying to impress people that you have it all together, is the real key to intimacy and joy in our relationships with others. Dave Fribush and David Burns feel very indebted to Michael for his awesome work on today's podcast. Michael hopes his experiences will be helpful to any of you who have also struggled at times with social anxiety. My new website makeover will probably be launched by the time you read this, so let us know what you think! It's will be at the same address: www.feelinggood.com. If you are struggling with social anxiety, you might also enjoy my book, Intimate Connections. It's now a bit dated, but the ideas can still be tremendously helpful. Here's an unsolicited endorsement I recently received from a young professional woman: "I'd like to share a story about a book I started reading on my trip to Asheville this past weekend. On the plane, both tears and uncontrollable laughter simultaneously streamed from my face while reading the Intimate Connections book. No more peanut butter and jelly sandwiches telling myself what a loser I am!" ZR David

Happy Thanksgiving if you live in the United States! This is my favorite holiday, because it means just hanging out with the people you love, eating some wonderful food together, and doing simple things like a family hike, without the commercialism and "push" of some of the other holidays. I wish the very best to you and yours, too! Today, Rhonda could not join us due to Yom Kippur, the highest Jewish holy day. So we will record three podcasts with my wonderful neighbor, Dave Fribush, as host. In addition, we are joined by Michael Simpson, who flew out from New York to attend my Empathy workshop two days ago. He will also join the Tuesday group at Stanford tonight. Michael is doing a massive upgrade / fast lift of my website, www.feelinggood.com, which will likely be published by the time you read this. Let us know what you think about the new "look." Dave Fribush, Michael and I answer many thought-provoking questions submitted by listeners like you! 1. How can I overcome my fear of blushing? Hi David, Hopefully this reaches you well. I am dealing with Erythrophobia (the fear of blushing) and have been having issues with going out with friends, being in public, in work meetings, etc. The weird part is that I don't even get red, but the visualization in my head is so vivid sometimes (Kool-Aid man) that I believe it. Sometimes, if I think about it long enough (like an internal panic attack for 20+min), I get kind of red. . . . Currently, I am trying to just break this habit and I have been reading your book When Panic Attacks and it has been pretty good at helping me. I have been facing my fears and going out into public and hanging out with friends; I'm kind of anxious on the inside of getting red all of sudden, which puts me on edge. I look in the mirror and see that I am not red, but it's been hard to train my brain to believe it. I started reading your book five days ago and it has helped a lot already. Since then, I have been able to accept I don't mind being occasionally red or nervous and I'm fairly confident, but I struggle to accept the idea of being perpetually red? Part of me wants to accept the idea that "Eff-it! If I'm red, I'm red! That's who I am," but another part of me knows that it's not true; occasionally I might blush but it's not the norm. Please let me know if you have any advice. I think this might be a great podcast topic because I know a lot of people with Rosacea deal with anxiety and I'm sure that would help a lot of others. Best, Alex Hi Alex, I have a awesome podcast on the fear of blushing! You might find it helpful (Podcast #88, published on May 14, 2018.) I cannot do therapy through this medium, so this is just general teaching, but exposure / self-disclosure in one method you could use. You could tell 5 to 10 strangers every day something like this: "Could I speak to you for a moment? I've had the fear of blushing almost all of my life, and I've been hiding it from everybody out of shame. But today, I've decided to stop hiding and being ashamed, so I've decided to tell people, and that's why I'm telling you." You'll find tons of additional ideas in the podcast and in one of my books, like the one you're reading, When Panic Attacks, as well as The Feeling Good Handbook. Actually, blushing is NEVER a problem. The only problem is the shame. Without the shame, the blushing, like shyness, can be an asset, making you more human and more appealing. Also, on my Sunday hike yesterday, we were joined by a young Stanford dermatologist who showed us some photos and videos of a new laser treatment for rosacea, which is similar to blushing. Apparently, the treatment is quite effective. Thanks, David 2. How can you get over a broken heart? Hi David, First of all, I would like to thank you from my bottom of my heart for the wonderful jobs you are doing. I have a question regarding aftermath of divorce and searched feelinggood.com for any post but I couldn't find any. My best friend is going through divorce process and he cannot forget the good memories he had with this wife. He still loves her so much and would like to continue their relationship but she's not interested in that. They have been separated for 4 years and he tried his best to bring her back. How can I help him move forward? Those good memories are haunting him? Thanks, Didi Hi Didi, Thanks for your terrific question, as most of us were rejected by someone we loved at some point in our lives. You're in luck! We just recorded a podcast on how to help a friend or loved one who's hurting, and by the time you read this, it will have been published. It's Podcast #164 on "How to HELP, and how NOT to Help!" It was published on October 28, 2019. You can find the link on the list of all of the published podcasts on my website. I would definitely listen before trying to "help" your friend! Resources for your friend might include the book I wrote on this topic, which is called Intimate Connections. One of the themes is that rejection could

Professor Mark Noble was our special guest on the one hundredth Feeling Good Podcast. In that podcast, he described the effects of TEAM-CBT on the human brain. Many listeners were enthralled by Dr. Noble's revolutionary ideas! Today, Dr. Noble returns to discuss his illuminating ideas, and prevents an overview of his chapter entitled, "TEAM CBT and the Art of Micro-Neurosurgery: A Brain User's Guide to Feeling Great," which will appear in David's new book, Feeling Great, which will be released by PESI in 2020. Rhonda begins the podcast by asking how Dr. Noble met Dr. Burns. What brought the two of you together? Dr. Noble explains that he read about David's work on drug-free treatments for depression in the October, 2013 issue of Stanford Magazine entitled Mind Over Misery, This article became the most-read article in the history of the Stanford Magazine. Dr. Noble was particularly interested in drug-free treatments for depression because of some alarming research emerging in his laboratory on the central nervous system impact of some popular antidepressants on lysosomes in the brain. So, Dr. Noble made a trip to California so he could visit David's Tuesday training group at Stanford and participate in one of David's famous Sunday hikes. This was so much fun, and so intellectually rewarding, that he become an irregular regular at the Tuesday groups and Sunday hikes! Since that time, there have been many Sunday hikes and many Tuesday groups in the emerging friendship and professional collaboration between David and Dr. Noble. David describes some of the resistance he runs into from mental health professionals who cannot believe that the rapid recoveries David sees in TEAM-CBT can be real. Most therapists were trained to believe that depression develops slowly, over many years, and that effective treatment must also be very slow, often requiring many years, or even more than a decade of weekly sessions. But Dr. Noble argues that the amazingly rapid changes David routinely sees in TEAM-CBT are actually highly consistent with the latest neuroscience understanding of how the human brain works. David and Dr. Noble on a Sunday hike In fact, Dr. Noble presents the amazing idea that if you had to invent a form of psychotherapy that was specifically developed to capitalize on how the brain works, you would come up with something very much like TEAM-CBT. Dr. Noble discusses neuroscience in simple, everyday terms that anyone can understand. Even me (david)! Dr. Noble teaches in a kind of clear, accessible way of communicating that I (david) admire greatly. I have seen this in all of the teachers that I've admired the most in college, medical school and beyond. Dr. Noble explains that if you want to change the way you think, feel, and behave, you have to change certain specific networks in your brain. That's because networks of nerves are the biological equivalents of thoughts. But how do you do that? How can you change the networks in your brain that cause you to feel depressed, anxious, and inadequate? It's through two basic concepts of neuroscience called FTWT and WTFT! In Dr. Burns' new book, Dr. Noble writes: "One of the most famous concepts in the science of learning is called, "What Fires Together Wires Together" (FTWT). Nerve cells that frequently interact with each other become functionally connected, and the more they fire together, the stronger the connections become. This is how new networks are formed and how existing networks become stronger. "In addition, nerve cells that are Wired Together tend to Fire Together (WTFT). WTFT. This idea explains why once you've learned something it gets easier to repeat it every time you do it." Dr. Noble also views TEAM-CBT as a kind of micro-neurosurgery, because you replace highly selected negative brain circuits that send distorted signals, such as "I'm not good enough," or "I'll never recover," with new circuits that are far more accurate and positive. Dr. Noble also explains why Dr. Burns' concept of "Fractal Psychotherapy" is so complimentary to our understanding of the human brain, as are the other components of TEAM-CBT, including T = Testing, E = Empathy, A = Assessment of Resistance, and M = Methods. David and Dr. Noble following a Sunday hike, just before the dim sum feast with the hiking group at the Joy Luck Palace in Cupertino, California, Notice the slightly bulging but happy stomachs from both doctors! Dr. Noble also explains why conventional therapy--where the patient comes in week after week to vent about his / her problems--may actually make the patient worse. This is because the neurons that Fire Together every week, actually Wire Together. So, in simple neuroscience terms, conventional therapy may actually lead patients in the wrong direction, by strengthening the negative circuits in the brain. You will love this down-to-earth discussion of TEAM-CBT and the human brain! David D. Burns, M.D. & Rhonda Barovsky, Psy.D.

In today's podcast, David and Rhonda interview Dr. David Hanscom, a renowned and controversial spine surgeon who gave up a large and lucrative surgical practice in favor of helping and educating people struggling with back pain, directing them on the path to recovery without surgery or drugs. Dr. Hanscom describes his personal journey and recovery from panic, pain, and other disabling somatic symptoms when he read Dr. Burns' book, Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, and began doing the written triple column technique to challenge his own negative thoughts and overcome his own feelings of depression, panic, hopelessness, and anger. He also began to study alarming research reports indicating that many of the surgical procedures were no more effective than placebos; and even worse, he could see that back surgery often had damaging and even disabling and horrific effects on patients. And he also discovered that most of the patients seeking surgery for back pain could be helped simply through talk therapy and support, by focusing on the problems in their lives, rather than simply focusing on pain and pills. Dr. Burns supports Dr. Hanscom's premise, that even physical pain can have powerful psychological causes and cures. Dr. Burns briefly summarizes his own research on hospitalized inpatients with significant emotional problems as well as chronic pain. He wanted to answer the question of why physical pain and negative feelings so often go hand-in-hand. To find out, he studied changes in negative feelings, like depression, anxiety and anger, as well as the intensity of pain, in more than 100 patients attending a 90 minute cognitive therapy group. He saw that there were often massive shifts in negative feelings, like depression, anxiety, and anger, as well as the severity of physical pain, during the groups. He analyzed the data with sophisticated statistical modeling techniques to evaluate two competing theories about why pain and negative feelings go hand-in-hand. Physical pain could cause negative feelings, like depression, anxiety and anger. This seems plausible, since physical pain is so debilitating, and just plain awful. Negative feelings could have a causal effect on physical pain. The analyses indicated that there were causal effects in both directions, but the most powerful effect, by far, was the effect of negative emotions on physical pain. In fact, the analyses indicated that, on average, half of the physical pain these patients were experiencing, on average, was the direct result of their negative emotions. This means that if you're in pain, and you're emotionally upset, which would be totally understandable, that a great deal of the pain you are feeling is the result of a magnification of the pain by your negative emotions. There is a positive implication of this finding that supports what Dr. Hansom is saying--namely, that if you are in pain, including chronic pain, and you are willing to overcome your negative feelings and deal with the problems in your life, there is a good chance that your pain will improve substantially. Some people, as David saw in the groups, will experience a total elimination of pain--something he often observed within the group. It is also possible that you will experience a reduction of your pain, but not a complete elimination. And it is possible that your pain will not improve when your negative feelings disappear--but at least you won't have to struggle with pain and depression! So he has now devoted his life to making people, as well as his surgical colleagues, aware of the realities vs. the myths of back surgery. To learn more, visit his website, or pick up a copy of his terrific book, Back in Control. The book includes a section on your personal roadmap out of pain. Rhonda and I are incredibly grateful to Dr. Hanscom for this illuminating, challenging, and profoundly personal interview. We hope you enjoy it! And if you've been struggling with any kind of chronic or debilitating pain, we hope you will find some hope, as well as a drug-free path to recovery! David D. Burns, M.D. & Rhonda Barovsky, Psy.D.

In today's podcast, David and Rhonda answer two questions about suicide submitted by podcast fans. Question 1. Why do shrinks kill themselves? Dear Dr Burns, Before I get to my question (which I hope you will consider addressing in your 'Ask David' segment of the podcast), I would like to extend my gratitude to you. Your book, Feeling Good, came to me at a time when I was struggling to make sense of my depression and anxiety, and it has been a vital part of my recovery journey. The exercises and the podcast have been such lifelines, and I am grateful to you for the incredible and life-changing work that you do. I know you have addressed the topic of suicide in a previous episode, but I recently was struck by a piece of news from my alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where a senior member of the college's counselling services (CAPS) died by suicide. Here was someone who had spent his life's work on promoting suicide prevention, and had a great deal of knowledge on resilience. How can we process/understand the decisions that someone like this might make to take his life. How can I arrive at the understanding that his decision doesn't necessarily spell doom for the rest of us? What TEAM-CBT exercises can we do to make sense of the world when it might not make much sense at first glance, during situations like these? Thank you very, very much, Sindhu Dr. David's Answer Thanks, Sindhu, this is a really great question. I'll put this in the Ask David folder. Should I use your name? Here's the short answer. It's a lot like saying that an infectious disease expert shouldn't get pneumonia, or that an orthopedic surgeon shouldn't have back pain, or a broken leg. I know of at least three mental health professionals who have committed suicide, but my knowledge based is tiny. I'm sure there are thousands of mental health professionals who have committed suicide. People can commit suicide for many reasons, and I can only mention a few here, as my knowledge, like yours, is limited. Hopelessness is one of the most common causes of suicide in depressed individuals. Hopelessness always results from cognitive distortions, and never from a valid appraisal of one's circumstances. Depressed people often turn to suicide, thinking (wrongly) that it is the only escape from their suffering. You may have done something that you are profoundly ashamed of, and fear it is about to be made public. Like the fellow in New York arrested for child abuse who hung himself just a few weeks ago. I am convinced that sometimes people commit suicide to get back at someone they are angry with, someone perhaps who rejected them. Physician-assisted suicide. I believe that physician assisted suicide is absolutely indicated and compassionate if someone is in excruciating pain from an irreversible terminal illness. The Achievement Addiction. Feelings of failure and worthlessness. In our culture, we sometimes (wrongly) base our feelings of self-esteem on our success in life, our income, or our achievements. And so, if your achievements are only "ordinary," you may feel worthless, like "a failure," and kill yourself. The Love Addiction: Many people (wrongly) tell themselves they must be loved to feel happy and worthwhile, and then kill themselves when they are rejected by someone they thought they loved and "needed." Drug and alcohol abuse: These habit, when severe, can greatly disrupt a person's life. They can also make someone more impulsive, and more likely to jump or pull the trigger when intoxicated. There are likely way more causes than just these common ones. For example, a psychotic process like schizophrenia might sometimes play a role as well. I suspect you may have a hidden "Should Statement," telling yourself that a mental health professional "should not" get depressed or have the urge to commit suicide. But to me, that would be a nonsensical claim, and it isn't even clear to me why you might think that way. In fact, most people are drawn to this profession because of their own unresolved suffering. There is, I suspect, MORE depression and anxiety in mental health professionals, but I have not seen data, so I'm not certain of this. But I've trained tens of thousands of mental health professionals, and pretty much ALL of the ones I've known personally have struggled at times, and sometimes intensely. People also ask, "Why did so and so commit suicide? S/he was so famous and loved and wealthy!" Well, famous and loved and wealthy people often suffer and commit suicide, too. Finally, I would say that suicide is both tragic and devastating—for the patient for sure, for the family and friends who typically suffer for years, and for the therapist as well. Fortunately, the family and friends can be helped, if they ask, but it is too late for the person who was depressed. And the tragedy is needless in most cases, since the patient's intense negative feelings can be treated effectively in nearly all cases. David Question 2. How can you find out

Lately, I've received numerous emails asking, in essence, "how can I help my loved one who has this or that problem?" I would say that I get several emails like that every week. For example, here's one from a man we'll call "Karl." Love you podcasts. Listen as often as I can. keep reading your books. Our son is in an unhappy marriage. Last night we talked and he mentioned that there is no love in their marriage. Just coldness. The children "feel" the chasm. There is a lack of trust in the home. Our son feels he did not protect the children in defense of their mom, even though he disagreed with her. Now the children feel their father does not have their best interests. Our daughter-in-law feels that everything is fine. She uses the passive-aggressive "silent treatment" to punish others. Our son says she is controlling and manipulative, and that the children have become that way also. There's no truth in the home. Years ago, she wanted them to go to counseling, but our son refused; now the tables are turned. Sad. We want to help but don't know how to approach it. What podcasts would be helpful to us? And to our son and daughter-in-law? We visit our grandchildren often, sometimes one-on-one. Communications are open with them and with our son. Daughter-in-law feels, and tells others, we are conspiring against her Karl Thank you Karl, for that moving email. It can be really sad and frustrating to see a couple in conflict who are at odds with each, especially when your son and grandchildren are involved. And I can imagine you might also be feeling anxious and a bit helpless, and deeply concerned! When I wrote Feeling Good forty years ago, I tried to make it clear that the cognitive therapy tools I described in that book are for people to use to help themselves. It is okay to correct your own distorted negative thoughts in order to break out of a bad mood. But it is generally NOT a good idea to try to correct someone else's distorted thoughts, because they'll just get ticked off at you! This is a very understandable error, because you may get really excited by the things I'm teaching, and how helpful they can be when you're feeling depressed, anxious, or insecure. So it just makes sense that you would want to share these tools with others. But those are generally NOT the tools to use when you're talking to your son, daughter, spouse, or friend who's feeling down in the dumps. There is a way to help someone you love who's hurting—but you'll have to use an entirely different set of tools and skills—the Five Secrets of Effective Communication—WITHOUT trying to "help." So, the short answer to your question is—skillful listening is all that's called for. Anything more runs the risk of getting you into trouble. But this may require a radical change in the way you communicate, as well as your personal philosophy. Let's talk about what TO do, and what NOT to do when patients, friends or people you care about express angst, or seem troubled, or describe problems in their lives, and they seem to be hurting a lot. DO NOT Give advice Try to help Try to cheer the person up Try to solve the problem s/he is struggling with Try to get the other person to think or act more positively Try to minimize the problem by saying it's not that bad, or things will get better. Point out ways the other person may be thinking or acting in a self-defeating manner. Before we tell you what does work, let me focus on just one of these errors, to bring it to life for you. Recently, Rhonda and I recorded a live therapy session with a man named who was upset because his mother had lost the use of her legs to due a rare neurological disorder, and needed much greater care in an assisted living facility. This required selling the house his mother was living so they could afford the assisted living facility, and it was a great loss for everyone, since Kevin was raised in that house, and his parents and grandparents had lived there, too. After Rhonda and I empathized with him for about thirty minutes, we asked the other therapists to offer empathy as well, as part of their practice and training that evening. We stressed the importance of simply summarizing what Kevin had told us (Thought Empathy) and how he was feeling (Feeling Empathy), without trying to "help." One of the therapists, who was new to the group, kind of missed the mark, She did what we call "cheerleading," telling Kevin what a wonderful and heroic person he was without acknowledging what he'd be saying and how painful it was for him. You'll hear this brief excerpt from the session in the podcast. When we asked Kevin how he felt about her comment, he had to tell her that he was embarrassed, and not helped, by what she'd said. Here's why. When you don't acknowledge someone's profound negative feelings of loss, anxiety, sadness, anger, and more, you might unintentionally convey the message that you don't want to hear about how they really feel inside. And when you cheerlead, it also conveys t

163: Ask David: Anxiety, Dreams, Cyclical Negative Thoughts, Secrets of Selling, Exposure, and more Can you treat anxiety without meds? How do you interpret dreams? Are negative thoughts cyclical? How can I get over anxiety when selling? How does exposure work? Will you teach on the East Coast again? Hi! We've had tons of great questions from listeners like you. Here's the first: Question #1. TREATING ANXIETY WITHOUT MEDICATIONS Hi Dr. Burns, I would love to talk to you!!! I have been going to a wonderful counselor for several years, and he is the one who recommended your book. My question is how can you overcome anxiety without taking medicine? I have been on a very low dose medicine for years and would love to discontinue but when I try the anxiety seems to come back. Thank you. Lisa Hi Lisa, Thank you for your email! This is one of my favorite topics, since I've personally had at least 17 different anxiety disorders that I've had to overcome. That's why I love treating anxiety. Whatever you've had, I can say, "I've had that too, and I know how it sucks! And I can put you on the road to recovery, too!" Did you read When Panic Attacks, or one of the earlier books? The written exercises would be the way to go, I think. You will find more than 40 methods in that book. Write back if you have questions after reading it. Focus on one specific moment when you are anxious, and do a Daily Mood Log, as illustrated in Chapter 3. You can also listen to the free Feeling Good Podcasts on anxiety. Go to my website, FeelingGood.com, and click on the Podcast tab. There, you'll find a list of all the podcasts, with links. In the right hand panel of every page, you'll find the search function. You can type in "anxiety," or "social anxiety," and so forth, and all the relevant podcasts and blogs will pop right up. You can also sign up in that same right-hand panel of every page so you'll receive all the new podcasts, along with the show notes. In addition, withdrawal effects are pretty much inevitable when going off of benzodiazepines, if that is the type of medication you are taking. These are the drugs most often prescribed for anxiety, like Valium, Librium, Ativan, Xanax, and so forth. Typically, the withdrawal, which typically involves insomnia and increased anxiety, take several weeks to wear off. Your medical doctor can guide you in this. I cannot advise you about medications in this forum, so make sure you check with your doctor! David Question #2. How can you interpret dreams? Hello, Dr. Burns. I am terrified that this may be the most boring question you have ever received, but, I'll press on none the less. I often experience very vivid dreams after listening to your podcasts. In fact, I recently dozed off after listening to one of your podcasts on procrastination (#75) and forgot to turn off my phone. In my dream I was in my childhood house and could hear you talking away in some far corner of the house and I was really getting quite annoyed and angry. I really wanted to find you to tell you to shut up, but I couldn't get the words out. When I awoke, podcast #77 was playing, which seems to explain some of my unconscious hostility. I struggle with most of my relationships and don't really want to deal with all the hard work I have to do to improve them. So, there you have it! Thanks for listening to me and all your Herculean efforts on behalf of all those in the struggle to grow. Mike Hi Mike, I explain how dreams function, and give an example with my dream that I had a broken jaw! Question #3. Are Negative Thoughts cyclical? David, I have a question about our strong attraction or inclination to negative thoughts. Are our psychological processes cyclical? People seem to recycle the same negative thoughts for years. Even if we produce a strong alternative thought or reattribution it may not be a default choice the next time. How can we make the alternative/ positive thoughts a conscious choice? Thanks, Rajesh Hi Rajesh: Negative Thoughts are not cyclical for the most part, but are an inherent part of our human nature. The podcast on fractal psychotherapy might be useful, since the same Negative Thoughts will tend to come back over and over throughout your life. And once you have learned how to combat those thoughts, you can use the same techniques to smash the thoughts whenever they pop back into your mind. The written exercises I describe in my books, like the Daily Mood Log, are extremely helpful, even mandatory, in building new brain networks and strengthening them through repeated practice. Bipolar manic-depressive illness is a little different, and it can be quick cyclical. (David will briefly explain this.) Thanks Rajesh for yet another great question! david Question #4. I'm in sales. How do I combat my Negative Thoughts about each person I approach? Hi David, I have been struggling with anxiety for the last 18 months and recently faced up to the fact I have also been suffering from depression. And then I discove

"Yikes! I might get contaminated!" The Treatment of Sara Today we are joined by a woman named Sara, who will be featured in one of the chapters from my new book, Feeling Great. Rhonda begins today's podcast by reading two heart-warming endorsements from podcast fans. Then we did a brief overview of OCD. OCD consists of two components, obsessions and compulsions. The obsessions are intrusive, anxiety provoking thoughts, like "what if I forgot to turn off the burners on the stove." Compulsions are rituals that temporarily relieve the anxiety, such as going back into the kitchen repeatedly to make sure that the burners really are turned off. This problem can become more and more severe until the obsessive thoughts and compulsive rituals consume massive amounts of the patient's time and become crippling. You are probably aware that OCD plagued the life of the billionaire playboy, Howard Hughes, featured in the recent film, "The Aviator." During the last years of his life, he became totally consumed by concerns about germs, and ended up isolated in the penthouse suite at the top of a hotel in Las Vegas. According to a "psychological autopsy" (https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug05/hughes) published by the American Psychological Association, Hughes lay naked in bed in darkened hotel rooms in what he considered a germ-free zone. He even wore tissue boxes on his feet to protect them, and burned his clothing if someone near him became ill. Sara, today's guest, was a victim of the same type of OCD. She describes how her intense fears of germs and contamination came on more than 20 years ago, and the devastating impact of the OCD on her as well as her relationships with friends and family. She also describes her shame about her rituals of constantly washing her hands and desperately trying to avoid contamination. Sara also describes, in vivid detail, her remarkable and inspiring five minute "cure" one evening at David's Tuesday evening training group at Stanford earlier this year. She had courageously volunteered to be the patient so David could to demonstrate TEAM-CBT with a problem generally thought to be exceptionally challenging and refractory. And although Sara's dramatic and mind-blowing recovery only took about five minutes, the treatment required a lifetime of courage! Fortunately, one of my students had his cell phone in hand, and made a brief video of the last phase of her treatment at the Tuesday group, which involved putting her hands into a slimy, dirty garbage can right outside the front door of our Behavioral Sciences Building at Stanford and then rubbing her fingers on her face. Check it out! (link) And yes, the effects DID last! Her treatment was many months ago, and she's been a totally changed person! Following the podcast, Rhonda and I got two beautiful emails from Sara: Wow! What a beautiful day! Thank you, Rhonda and David for the amazing opportunity to share my story! I feel very selfish but I enjoyed every minute of it. You both made me feel so comfortable and welcome. You two are so incredibly AWESOME! You make a superb team! :) And here is the second wonderful email: David, I hope you are feeling better and that you recover from your cold soon, very soon. I wanted to share an afterthought I had a couple of days after we recorded the podcast. I wish I had thought about it before the podcast because this was so much part of my OCD. Anyway, for years (many years) I bought sanitized hand wipes and carried them in my purse, car, briefcase, you name it—I had hand wipes everywhere. I was known for having wipes with me all the time. Not long after the magical treatment of my OCD, I was at the grocery store and proceeded to add three packets of sanitized hand wipes to my basket and I burst into laughter, even though I was by myself! I, then, put them back on the shelf, as I told myself, "I don't need these anymore!" Since then, I no longer carry them NOR NEED THEM! Funny enough, I have been approached on different occasions by family members and friends saying something like, "You always have wipes, can we have one, please?" I have to say, "Sorry, I don't carry wipes anymore since I've been cured!" What a wonderful feeling that is—not to feel dependent nor a slave to the sink and hand wipes. Not to mention, all the money I am saving by not buying wipes!!! Anyway, I thought I should share that with you and I'm sad I didn't remember it until after the recording of the podcast. Once again, thank you both for the amazing recording, all your support, and all you do for our Tuesday training group and humanity in general! With Immense Gratitude, Sara Sara Shane is a certified TEAM-CBT therapist practicing in the central valley of California (Stockton). She is multi-lingual and offers intensives—extended, single-session treatment of depression and all of the anxiety disorders. And, here's something fantastic—although Sara is a superb therapist, her fees are modest, thus bucking the current trend of charging out

Hearing the Music Behind the Words This podcast again features the music of two beloved colleagues we introduced last week, Brandon Vance, MD and Heather Clague MD. We will be listening to music again this week, but it will be, for the most part, a different kind of music—it's the music behind the words when someone criticizes you. We will be focusing on the most challenging and important of the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, the Disarming Technique. This week, Brandon and Heather will help Rhonda and David illustrate how to use this technique when you're under the fire of criticism. But in addition, Brandon and Heather will also sing one more of their extremely beautiful and fun songs, appropriately entitled, "The Five Secrets!" When you use the Disarming Technique, you find the truth in a criticism, even if the criticism seems untrue, unfair, or exaggerated. This technique is based on the Law of Opposites. The essence of the Law of Opposites is that if you genuinely and immediately agree with the criticism that seems untrue, you will put the lie to it, and the critic will stop believing the criticism. This is a remarkable phenomenon that can be enormously helpful in conflicts with patients (if you're a therapist) as well as friends, colleagues, and loved ones. However, it is challenging, because you have to be able to really listen and "hear" the music behind the other person's words. If you use the Disarming Technique, or any of the Five Secrets, in a mechanical way, it will backfire. And I (David) have noticed that even trained mental health professionals can have a tremendous difficulties learning to use the Disarming Technique. Here's an example of POOR technique. Although this is a therapy example, it is equally valid for conflicts between friends and loved ones. Let's say that you're a therapist, and your patient confronts you by saying, "This is the second week in a row that you've been late for my session." I've seen therapists respond like this: "You're right. I have had emergencies which made me late for your sessions last week and today." Is this a good example of the Disarming Technique? NO! Can you see why? It's because this therapist is agreeing with the criticism in a literal way, and not hearing the "music" behind the words. What is this patient really saying? He's probably saying that he feels a lack of caring from his therapist, and this may be one of his core conflicts, thinking that the people he cares about never care about him. So the therapist's "mechanical" answer misses the boat. Here's an improved response that addresses what the patient really said. After each sentence, I'll put the name(s) of the technique(s) I used in the sentence. "Jim, it's painful to hear you say that, because you're right. ("I Feel" Statement; Disarming Technique) I was late and I let you down, and I feel embarrassed. (Disarming; "I Feel" Statement.) I wouldn't be surprised if you're feeling hurt and annoyed, and maybe even a bit angry with me, and for good reason. (Feeling Empathy) This is particularly uncomfortable, because you've told me that everyone you care about seems to let you down. ("I Feel" Statement; Thought and Feeling Empathy) I care about you and have tremendous respect for you. (Stroking) Although I was delayed by emergencies last week and this week, the fact is, you had to wait. (Disarming) I will try to correct the problem of getting emergency calls when I'm in the clinic, which definitely is irritating and unfair to you, and I'll gladly offer a free session to compensate the fact that you had to wait. (Disarming Technique, Feeling Empathy) I want to know more about how you've been feeling, and if there have been other times when I've let you down or perhaps said things that seemed uncaring? (Inquiry)" Can you see that this response addresses the music, or feeling, or message behind the words, and not just the words? And can you see the Law of Opposites in action? When this therapist agrees that he has let the patient down, and shows some humility, the patient will probably suddenly feel very cared about. In today's podcast, Brandon, Heather, Rhonda and David play a kind of Disarming Round Robin, taking turns responding to unexpected criticisms, using the Disarming Technique as well as any other communication techniques that may be needed. For example, one of the therapists is attacked by a patient who is a person of color who calls him "one of the rich white privileged people." You will also hear the immediate grading of each response--was it an A, a B, a C, or a D--along with what worked and what didn't work, followed in some cases by a second try. If you want to learn the Five Secrets, and especially the Disarming Technique, this type of practice will be a must! You can practice with a colleague, or with a friend. But be prepared to check your ego at the door so you can learn from failure, because it will be very challenging for you at first! A neighbor who was helping with t

Introducing Brandon Vance, MD & Heather Clague, MD This podcast features the music of two beloved colleagues, Brandon Vance, MD and Heather Clague MD. Brandon and Heather are both certified TEAM-CBT psychiatrists practicing in Oakland, California. Brandon is a brilliant multi-instrumentalist and singer / song writer / performer who has transformed his vision of TEAM-CBT into music! Heather is brilliant and fun improv acting teacher and performer who is quick in her mind and on her feet! Brandon and Heather have performed at David's annual South San Francisco psychotherapy intensive for the past several years, and we are delighted to bring them to you up close and personal today! In today's podcast, they'll bring you their songs and amazing personal stories. And what is super cool is that you can follow the words for the music right here in the show notes. Song #1 Heather and Brandon begin with music about a familiar but painful theme for nearly all of us—the feeling of failure, and the belief that we are somehow defective or just "not good enough." Brandon and Heather are extremely talented and successful individuals, but they are not immune from suffering. During the podcast, they describe their own painful personal experiences with depression, anxiety, shame, and defectiveness. Most therapists, including David, were trained in the psychoanalytic tradition and told that we should NEVER disclose or reveal our own personal feelings or experiences to patients. But we believe that some personal disclosure can be very healing for patients if done with skill and compassion. Most patients want to hear this type of message from a therapist: "I've been there myself, and know how much pain you're in. And I can show you the way out of the woods, so you can experience feelings of joy and self-esteem again. And what a joy that's going to be!" So, with no further ado, Brandon and Heather perform their first song: The Feel of Failure Lyrics by Heather Clague and Brandon Vance to the tune of "The Sound of Silence" by Paul Simon Hello failure my old friend I've come to talk with you again Because my ego softly creeping Infects my thoughts while I am preaching And that vision that was planted in my brain Still remains; becomes the Feel of Failure Fool, said I, you are so lame Done something wrong to feel this shame Perfect is the way that you should be Self-blame coming like a tsunami Negative thoughts one hundred - percent on my DML I was in hell Suffered the Feel of Failure My self-esteem had turned to shit I needed the magic button hit Something told me my feelings weren't lame Began to do a positive reframe Maybe my feelings say something about me that is pretty fly I set the bar high So I have a Feel of Failure I saw that I was not alone Dared go beyond my comfort zone I took pride in my humility Welcomed my faults as my humanity And in a moment of enlightenment I cried and then I laughed I'd finally grasped The wisdom... of the Feel... of Failure Song #2 The next song is on social anxiety. Brandon explains: "I wanted to introduce this song I wrote with Amy Specter who was on your podcast on August 5th #152 a month or so ago. It's called, "Negative Thoughts Shut your Piehole Tonight." And it's about social anxiety and the idea that when you're upset, it's not the event or the other person who's "making you" feel upset, it's your own negative thoughts. "Where it gets personal for me is that I was bullied in elementary school by a group of my former friends who made up a story that I was gay - as if that's a bad thing - and then yelled things, tried to get in fights with me, etc., for really the majority of the school year. And I got really down and felt ashamed, and didn't tell my parents or anyone else about it because of that. But what they did, didn't make me down - it was my negative thoughts. I wasn't actually gay, but what was important was that I told myself that I was defective, and people didn't want to be around me. "The person who I thought was the ringleader was a blonde blue-eyed (as if those are good things) smart, handsome guy who had great social skills and apparent confidence - both seemingly more than I had. In my mind I made him into an evil person just interested in popularity. But he had many good qualities (and was a friend of mine before this). Seeing his good qualities reminds me of the concept of the disarm. "In this song, the singer is anxious about going to a party. She feels envious of Anna, a woman who's thin (as if that's a good thing) and gets a lot of attention - both because of our culture's preoccupation with women being thin and also because she has great social skills. So, she feels bad about herself. "But then realizes it's just her negative thoughts and also sees that her negative thoughts and feelings helpful to her, and represent good things about her. Then she works successfully on changing the way she thinks and feels." Negative Thoughts, Shut Your Piehole Tonight! by Amy Specte

The Secret of a Meaningful Life One of my favorite podcasts of all time, and one of the most frequently downloaded, was the live session with Daisy (podcast #79): "What's the Secret of a Meaningful Life?" You may recall that Daisy and her husband, Zane, were looking forward with dread to the possibility of childlessness, since their efforts at pregnancy had so far failed, and Daisy was asking if she could possibly have a joyful and meaningful life without children. In today's podcast we return to the same type of question from the other end of the spectrum. When we age and look back on our lives, and realize that our days are numbered, we may once again, "Have I lived a meaningful life?" Do you know how to answer this question? What, in your opinion, is the secret of a meaningful life? If the answer to this question is important to you, you might enjoy today's podcast, which features, once again, two beloved friends and colleagues, Dr. Marilyn Coffee and Dr. Matthew May. Matt and I first treated Marilyn for intense depression, anxiety, and anger two years ago at the time of her unexpected and shocking diagnosis of Stage 4 non-smoker's lung cancer. Marilyn was incredibly depressed and panicky, as you might imagine. If you are interested, you can listen to our initial treatment of Marilyn in podcast #49, "The Dark Night of the Soul." One of Marilyn's concerns at that time was that she had lost her faith in God and had begun to doubt the existence of an after-life. She was intensely self-critical and ashamed, and was also extremely angry because she began doubting her spiritual teachers and thinking of them as frauds. These doubts were all the more troubling to Marilyn, since she'd been a devout Catholic for her entire life. In fact, she even has a Master's Degree in theology, along with several additional Master's Degrees plus a PhD in clinical psychology! But now she was terrified by the prospect of her own death. During that initial treatment session, Marilyn overcome her fears, depression, and doubts, and ended up in a state of joy, and even laughter. This rapid transformation confirmed the basis of cognitive therapy, that our emotional pain results from our thoughts, and not from what is actually happening to us. And the thoughts that cause depression and anxiety will be distorted and cruel--I've often said that depression and anxiety are the world's oldest cons. Following that session, we were flooded with emails praising Marilyn. Oddly enough, many people said she was their spiritual hero. They said they were stunned and grateful her raw courage, testimony, and honesty. Now, it's two years later. Sadly, Marilyn has just learned from her doctors that she's had numerous metastases, and that her lung cancer has spread to the opposite lung, as well as to her bones, brain, liver, and lymph nodes. Marilyn is understandably paralyzed once again by overwhelming feelings of depression, anxiety, shame, hopelessness, and anger. Today's podcast is based on our most recent session with Marilyn about two weeks ago. I have to warn you that the session may be sobering, and even a bit terrifying, but hopefully you will find it to be inspirational and helpful, because sooner or later, we'll all have to share the prospect of facing our own inevitable death, and asking ourselves, "Have I had a meaningful life?" We scheduled this follow-up live therapy podcast for three reasons. First, we hoped to provide Marilyn with some relief from the devastating depression that had returned when she learned of her metastases. Second, we wanted to give you, and all of Marilyn's many fans, an update on what's happened in the past two years. And third, Marilyn wanted the chance to tell you about some of the positives in her life, since she so often mentions her failures, such as her bouts with alcoholism, and the fact that she never found a loving partner. Every TEAM session begins with T = Testing. You can see her scores on the Brief Mood Survey she filled out just before the session began. (link) All her scores reflect the most severe negative feelings a human being can experience. Marilyn has extraordinarily severe depression, anxiety, and anger, and her positive feelings are totally absent. Marilyn brought a partially completed Daily Mood Log to the session. If you take a look, you'll see all of her intensely Negative Thoughts and devastating feelings about the spread of her cancer. During the E = Empathy phase, Matt, Rhonda and I gave Marilyn the space she needed to vent and describe her despair and feelings of terror. We did not try to help or cheer her up. Marilyn cried as she described her fear of dying alone, and vividly recalled a friend who died a horrible death from lung cancer 20 years ago. Marilyn says he could barely breathe, and fears a similar horrific fate. Marilyn cries, and confesses that she has not been able to cry up until now. She says she suddenly felt a spiritual presence being around Matt, Rhonda, and David. Dur

David and Rhonda are joined again today by David's neighbor, friend, and hiking buddy, Dave Fribush. We appreciate his superb technical skills and thank Dave for his support of our podcasts! Rhonda starts the podcast by reading a question from a podcast fan named Rajesh, who wrote: I have often seen that estranged friends or family members do not talk or resolve a trivial conflict for years because one or both of them have ego issues or have fear of rejection. This problem of unfairness may even exist between a demanding parent and the child, ranging from secretly resenting to not talking at all. They might come face to face in family occasions or professional settings in case of friendship and bear the discomfort, but not attempt to reconcile. They might be suffering deep down emotionally but they refuse to accept that it matters. One or both members might feel they have been treated unfairly and expect apologies. But, both parties are scared to even make the move for the fear of being hurt again or rejected. On a personal level, I have faced such unfairness with a close friend. I see even if you forgive the other party, that element of resentment is still in their somewhere. How do you know you have truly forgiven someone and moved on? Whats the best that can be done at an individual level without involving the other party, at least till the time both are ready to talk it out, if it ever happens. Once again I thank you for all the selfless Good work you do for people through your knowledge sharing. My sincere best wishes to you and great thanks 🙏. Rajesh I appreciate this question, and it is a great introduction for our podcast on Changing the Focus, one of the three Advanced Secrets of Effective Communication. We recently introduced the three advanced secrets in podcast #126, and you can listen to it for review if you like. Changing the Focus. This technique can be tremendously helpful when there's an "elephant" in the room. Multiple Choice Empathy. This technique can be transformative when you're trying to connect with a teenager, friend or loved one who refuses to talk to you. Positive Reframing. This technique can be invaluable when you're fighting with a colleague, patient, friend or family member, and you're both feeling frustrated, angry, and upset Today we take a deeper dive into Changing the Focus. This technique can be extremely helpful when you feel tense or awkward in your relationship with someone. For example, you may be arguing endlessly, or there could be some unacknowledged feelings that no one is talking about, like shame, anger, hurt, or resentment. When you use Changing the Focus, you gently point out what's happening, and focus on your feelings, and drawing out the other person's feelings, instead of continuing in the same pattern of arguing or avoidance. Although this technique can be tremendously helpful, it is very challenging, so I have written two memos explaining the technique in greater detail, with examples. One is for therapists and one is for the general public. If you are interested in learning this technique, this would be a great starting place, and it might not hurt to read both memos. In addition, you have to be skillful with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication before trying this technique. That's a lot to ask, I know! David, Rhonda, and Dave (our new podcast co-host) model how Rajesh might use Changing the Focus with estranged friends or family members. Then Dave Fribush provides a terrific example of how he used the Five Secrets, plus Changing the Focus, in a troubled love relationship, after arguing and resisting for several years. Then I (David) provide an example with a patient I was failing with, and Rhonda provides two tremendous examples--one from her clinical practice, and one involving her sister. See what you think about our new three-person format! Since our audience consists of therapists as well as the general public, we welcome Dave with open arms and hearts, and feel lucky! David, Rhonda, and Dave :)

One Student's Experience In today's podcast, Rhonda and I are super-pleased to interview Kyle Jones again. For some time now, Kyle has been telling me that he wants to talk about his psychotherapy training experiences on a podcast. This subject is near and dear to my heart, since I do a great deal of training, so Rhonda and I decided to do this second interview with Kyle, and it's a good one, I think! You may recall our recent interview with Kyle on his interesting research and perspective on the treatment of LGBTQ individuals several weeks ago. Kyle is a brilliant and super-friendly 5th year graduate student in clinical psychology at Palo Alto University, and has been a member of my Tuesday evening psychotherapy training group at Stanford for the past four years as well. Kyle now sees patients at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. He has also been promoted to small group leader in our Tuesday group, and does superb work as a teacher. During today's interview, Kyle, Rhonda and I focus on many critically important training and treatment issues. Kyle states that he has been exposed to many fine teachers promoting a wide variety of popular treatment "packages" at the Palo Alto University and at his practicum sites, including traditional CBT, ACT, EMDR, psychodynamic therapy, and more. However, in all cases, the therapist was encouraged to "sell" this or that approach to the patient. Unfortunately, this has a tendency to trigger resistance, and is the main cause of therapeutic failure in clinical settings as well as controlled outcome studies as well. Paradoxical Agenda Setting, which is the secret spice of TEAM Therapy, was never mentioned in his training at Palo Alto University. When you do Paradoxical Agenda Setting, you bring the patient's subconscious resistance to conscious awareness, and then you melt it away with a variety of innovative techniques like the Magic Button, Positive Reframing, Magic Dial, Acid Test, Gentle Ultimatum and more. The rapid reduction the patient's resistance often leads to the high-speed, mind-boggling recoveries we frequently see in TEAM-CBT. Kyle emphasized that he has not see a single teacher or therapist even use the simple Invitation Step in therapy, in spite of the fact that it is so incredibly basic. Essentially, after empathizing with your patient, you ask if there is something she or he wants help with during the session, or if the patient needs more time to talk and get support. Most therapists wrongly believe that this question is unnecessary since the patient is coming to therapy, so he or she MUST want help. But in fact, nearly ALL patients have some degree of ambivalence about recovery, and if this ambivalence is ignored, the patient may, and probably will, resist the therapist's efforts to "help." Rhonda enthusiastically agrees that the Invitation Step is incredibly powerful and admits that it took her several years to "get it," and that she also resisted using the Invitation Step it at first, thinking it wasn't needed. But she failed her Level 3 Certification Exam in TEAM-CBT because she didn't know how to do it! Once she began using it, her practiced changed dramatically. And then she easily passed her exam with flying colors! Intense therapist resistance to these new techniques is extremely common. I once supervised a clinical psychology post-doctoral fellow at Stanford who resisted using the Invitation Step with her patients for the first two months of our supervision. All she did was schmooze with her patients. Finally, I asked her why she wasn't using the Invitation Step. She told me she was afraid her patients would say, "Yes, I DO want some help with problem X, Y or Z." And then she might not know how to help them solve whatever problem they had! She said, "As long as I just schmooze with my patients, I know that nothing will change, but they'll think it's good therapy!" Fortunately, after we discussed this dilemma, she began using the Invitation Step, along with many other Paradoxical Agenda Setting techniques, and her clinical work improved a ;pt. Kyle also emphasizes the incredible value of the Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session with every patient at every session, and yet most teachers and therapists in his graduate program, as well as those at his practicum sites, are not using these instruments. I think this is arguably an ethics violation, since therapists' perceptions of how their patients feel can be wildly inaccurate. I predict that within ten years, all therapists will be required by licensing agencies and insurers to use these kinds of assessment instruments. The importance of assessment instruments in clinical work and training was underscored by my experience several days ago with a patient who gave me incredibly poor grades on empathy as well as helpfulness at the end of a free, two-hour phone session. I had sensed the session had not gone especially well, but I didn't realize just how awful it was until I s

Plus, Thomas Szaas, TV Shrinks, and more! David and Rhonda are joined today by David's neighbor, friend, and hiking buddy, Dave Fribush. He has incredible technological skills, and wisdom. We thank Dave for his support of our podcasts! We open the podcast with a wonderful email from a fan named Sushant who listened to Feeling Good Podcasts for nine hours during a rigorous hike to the "Tiger Monastery" in Bhutan. You can see Sushant and his phone, showing the podcast icon, just in front of the monastery. Rhonda encourages podcast fans from around the world to send photos of yourself listening to the Feeling Good Podcast in additional unusual or exotic locations! Might be fun to see what you send to us! Here are the questions for today's program: Ann asks: Loved your podcast (on the exposure model, #26)! But I do have a question - I have suffered from panic attacks for years - the past 2 years I've become agoraphobic and don't want to be far away from my house. So, my phobia is now "having panic attacks." Does that mean I just need to go out and have a bunch of panic attacks in public to get over my fear? The thought seems terrifying. Also, I am severely claustrophobic which affects me anytime I feel trapped (elevators, small cars, traffic, tight spaces, etc.) Is there a protocol you used to treat patients with this? Just wanted to suggest perhaps a podcast on this subject, or agoraphobia, as it does affect many people worldwide. Nathan asks: Dear David, Love your podcasts. I am currently preparing a lecture for psychology honors students here at Monash University on assessment of depression and anxiety. In your podcasts you mention that you conducted a "study on the psychiatric inpatient unit at the Stanford Hospital, in which I evaluated how accurate therapists' perceptions of patients were after an interaction. Student researchers interviewed patients for several hours as part of a research study on psychiatric diagnosis." I was wondering if you could provide me with a reference to this study? I could not find a specific reference in your website and I would like to be able to highlight to student's the results of your research. Richard asks: I listened to your podcast on being worthwhile and found it interesting. You say all people are worthwhile. This may be true but does the whole world think this? If a person is worthwhile but the world thinks they are not worthwhile, isn't this almost as bad as not actually being worthwhile. Don't we have to play by the world's rules, however bad, instead of our own or the Platonic rules? What do you think? Robert asks: Dear David. I am up to podcast #108. I am heading to India next month for a three-week trek and am going to download the rest onto my phone. Perhaps by the time I get back, I will be up to date! I have never heard you mention Tom Szasz, who, as I am sure you know, was making some of the same observations about the constructs of medicalizing you make back in the 1960s and maybe even in the 50s. In particular, his criticism of the psychiatric industry giving the names of diseases or syndromes to behavioral issues was very consistent with yours. Robert also asks: My other question is an idea for future podcasts and it is...How about critiquing the therapeutic approach we see so often on television and in the movies? For the lay audience, these are probably the source of much of what they know about therapy. And because these therapists are well-known and fictional, it would give you an opportunity to make critiques without having to criticize an actual person. And it could introduce some levity into what can often be quite heavy. Some of the Hollywood therapists people know best are: Judd Hirsch as the shrink in Ordinary People Lorraine Bracco as the shrink in The Sopranos Peter Bogdanovich as the shrink's shrink in The Sopranos Billy Crystal as the shrink in Analyze This! Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting Kelsey Grammer in Frasier I am sure there are many others. These are the ones who quickly came to mind I just found an article about this that might help make the case that what the public sees on TV and in the movies is not really reflective of the therapeutic process or good therapy. Here's the link: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/therapists-on-the-big-and_b_4263798 Thanks for tuning in! David and Rhonda References for Nathan Burns, D., Westra, H., Trockel, M., & Fisher, A. (2012) Motivation and Changes in Depression. Cognitive Therapy and Research DOI 10.1007/s10608-012-9458-3 Published online 22 April 2012. Hatcher, R. L., Barends, A., Hansell, J. & Gutfreund, M.J. (1995). Patients' and therapists' shared and unique views of the therapeutic alliance: An investigation using confirmatory factory analysis in a nested design. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 63(4), 636 - 643.

The Story of Lorraine and "Anna" In today's podcast, David and Rhonda interview Dr. Lorraine Wong, a board-certified clinical psychologist, and her patient, "Anna," who sought treatment recently for depression, anxiety, and self-image / self-esteem issues. But first, David and Rhonda answer a question submitted by Estafonia, a "public image consultant," who asks about the treatment of a woman who sees herself as "fat." Estafonia wrote: "Hi Dr. Burns, "I am learning TEAM, CBT and implementing your techniques to help my clients change or improve their self-perception. In most cases, your techniques have been very effective. I am very grateful to you and I will happily join your list of fans! "My question is this—What would be the best method to change someone's self-image? How can you help people change the idea that they are fat for example? "I have a patient who can't defeat the thought, 'I am fat.' We tried the method called Examine the Evidence," and she has already found 20 people who see her as thin. So, the evidence clearly did not support her belief that she is fat. But this did not help. "We also tried the method called Let's Define Terms, and we both concluded that she is not fat. But now she tells me, 'I know I am not fat, but I can't stop thinking about it.' "We also did the Downward Arrow Technique to probe her deepest fears and Self-Defeating Beliefs, but that didn't seem to help, either, and she keeps ruminating about being fat. I would greatly appreciate your guidance on how to help her overcome that thought! "Thanks in advance! Estefania" Lorraine, Rhonda, David and Anna quickly diagnose the most likely cause of Estefania's stuckness—she is trying to "help" her patient without first melting away her patient's resistance. This is the cause of practically all therapeutic failure, and you're not really doing TEAM-CBT if you don't know how to eliminate the patient's resistance. That's because most people are ambivalent about change. As the Jesuit mystic, Anthony DeMello, has said: "We yearn for change but cling to the familiar." Recognizing and modifying this inherent ambivalence is the heart of A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting, but you can also think of the A as standing for "Assessment of Resistance." How could we melt away this woman's ambivalence / reluctance to stop bombarding herself with the message, "I'm fat"? It is important to realize that this self-critical thought, and, in fact, all of her negative thoughts and feelings have huge advantages for her, and also indicate some really beautiful and awesome things about her and her core values. For example, telling herself "I'm fat" may motivate her to diet, to exercise, and to make extra sure that she doesn't get complacent and gain a tremendous amount of weight. In addition, the thought, "I'm fat," shows that she has high standards, and her high standards have probably motivated her success in many areas of her life. For example, she probably works really hard to stay in good health and in good physical condition. The thought, "I'm fat," also shows that she's humble, and on and on and on. And that's just one negative thought. But this woman probably has many negative thoughts and feelings, like anxiety, shame, inferiority and depression, and they ALL have tremendous advantages, and they ALL reveal what is beautiful and awesome about her and her core values. In addition, the thought may be protecting this patient from things she fears, like intimacy. As long as she tells herself, "I'm fat," she does have to risk trying to get close, or having sex, or risking rejection. So the thought, in a way, is a form of self-love and self-protection. Once Estafonia and her patient list all these positives, Estafonia could ask her patient, "Given all these advantages and positive qualities, maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea to stop telling yourself, 'I'm fat.' This thought seems to be working for you in a really positive way, and also reflects your core values." That's the essence of Paradoxical Agenda Setting. We try, in a genuine way, to honor the patient's resistance, rather than trying to sell the patient on change. This is very difficult for therapists to learn because of the compulsion to save, help, or rescue the patient. In addition, obsessions (recurring illogical negative thoughts like "I'm fat") frequently result from the Hidden Emotion phenomenon, and this has to be dealt with skillfully when treating any patient with anxiety. Estafonia's patient may be upset about something she's not dealing with in her life, and bringing the hidden problem or feelings to conscious awareness can often be incredibly helpful. For more information, see my book, When Panic Attacks, which you can order from my books page (link). After focusing on Estafonia's excellent question, David, Rhonda, Lorraine and Anna talk about the emotional challenges that brought Anna to treatment, including severe feelings of depression which came on when Anna returned to the Unite

Ask David Five Secrets Relationship Questions Kate asks: I love listening to your podcasts and am currently reading my way through your book, Feeling Good. I appreciate that you have written and spoken about relationship problems at length, but in what I have read and heard so far I do not see how this can apply to the current climate of casual dating and hook up culture which is fueled by apps such as Tinder. I don't know how it's possible to build relationships when the dominant mentality is that people are disposable. It feels like no matter how much I find truth in what my date says, stroke them and empathize with them, that they will disappear ('ghost') at the drop of a hat. I think this may be a significant problem for many of your listeners, and would greatly appreciate your thoughts, as well as any practical steps on how to date in today's world. * * * Eli asks: Your work has helped me tremendously over the past 2 years. However, recently I've discovered something about myself that I don't know how to change. I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts. For some reason, when it comes to sex, it seems that I have a lot of self-worth wrapped up in my sex drive. I'm realizing when my wife and I have sex I feel like I'm on top of the world afterwards. I feel so positive the following few days and I feel mentally and emotionally healthy. But it's devastatingly real that the reverse is true as well... when we don't have sex (and particularly when I reach out and she's not in the mood) and when a week or so passes that we don't have sex, I find myself feeling very insecure. I feel ugly, unlovable and generally less valuable as a person. Is there an exercise you would recommend for me to discover possible hidden thoughts/emotions that could be causing this? Is it possible to change this about myself? I want to have a close, intimate relationship with my wife (sexually and non-sexually) but I also want to feel valuable and positive whether or not we're sexually active. PS - If, by chance, you address this on the podcast, could you refer to me as "Eli" or something else anonymous as you usually do. Thank you for all you have do! * * * Susan asks: You seem like a good person to ask this question partly because you are a man. Someone I know, I won't say whom, told me he felt emasculated when I asked him to take my car to the gas station to get the wipers replaced. He said that he should be able to replace them himself but doesn't actually know how, so he would prefer if I took the car to the service station. I said that was stupid, granted not very diplomatic, and he said that's what he gets for expressing his feelings, which I frequently complain he does not do. To me "emasculated" is more of a concept or a thought. I will not get into toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, but I am curious what you think. By the way, this person and I have benefited a lot from your relationship journal exercise, thankfully we did not need it this time :-) * * * Knaidu asks: Here's a specific example which occurred whilst I was trying to use the disarming technique. It is one where I failed to use the technique. Anyway, I was meeting a friend of mine, and was a running a few min late for our lunch appointment. I couldn't send her text to let her know as I was driving. I arrived at least 5 min late. When I arrived she immediately said "I knew it all along, you really don't want to meet with me or actually have lunch with me!" I tried to explain that I was stuck in a traffic jam and couldn't text, but it didn't work. Here's what I said: "Please Mrs. X, I was stuck in a traffic jam and that's why I am late. Have I ever said I don't want to meet with you? And if I didn't why have I bothered to arrive at all, I mean I could have just not arrived if I didn't want to meet you!" After I said that she stormed off. I am afraid I could agree with her idea that I didn't really want to meet with her, because the truth was I did want to meet but couldn't help being late. I could agree with something that was not real to me and if I did try to agree, I would be lying to her. Please help me, David and Rhonda! Thanks for tuning in, and keep the great questions coming! David and Rhonda

New Ask David Questions Kelly asks: Would love to hear a podcast about to use or not to use touch in therapy. I personally feel touch is extremely helpful (what is more natural than to hug or put a hand on someone hurting), however I believe our profession has become so "professionalized" that is leaves out such a power act of healing. Did you ever use touch when you were practicing, and do you feel it is appropriate? Against Machines Taking Over asks: You say that depression always results from distorted thoughts. But the sadness that results from a failure, rejection, or disappointment is not distorted. Can you explain a bit more about this? Against Machines Taking Over also asks: Is there something you used to advocate for before but then you changed your mind? Eduardo asks: How do you treat hypochondriasis. Almost all articles and advices I've read for hypochondriasis try to cover the writer's back by first and foremost telling you that you should get yourself checked for real causes for your concern. Eduardo also asks: I've been struggling with anxiety, and after reading When Panic Attacks, I got very interested in giving The Hidden Emotion model a try, but it seems to be structure-less. It seems to require a lot of detective work with no clear sheet or procedure. It's just Detective Work, and then do something about it. Is there some newer technique to dig into what's eating you?

In today's podcast, Rhonda and I interview the incredibly brilliant, funny, and creative Amy Spector. Amy is a licensed marriage and family therapist and credentialed school counselor with over a decade of experience working with adolescents and their families. She is passionate about providing school-based mental health services and advocates for legislation to mandate universal mental health care for youth. Amy works with "at risk" teenagers at Vicente High School in Martinez, California. This is a continuation high school, as well as teens at Briones School, an independent study school. Her students are credit deficient and at risk of not graduating from high school. Nearly all have experienced significant trauma and most are severely depressed, anxious and angry when first referred to Amy, and some have suicidal thoughts or urges as well. Although you might think that this would be an exceptionally challenging, oppositional, and frustrating group to work with, Amy has had tremendous success treating these teenagers with TEAM-CBT. She measures symptom severity at the start and end of every session, just as we do with adults, and often reports a phenomenal reduction of 60% in depression and anxiety in a single, 30-minute therapy session. Although this may be hard, or even impossible, to believe, it is real, and you'll see why when you listen to this amazing interview. Amy's secret involves a combination of superb E = Empathy skills to form a meaningful relationship, along with A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting to reduce resistance, followed by truly creative applications of M = Methods. And, of course, she does T = Testing with every student at every session, and plots her effectiveness over time. Amy describes her work with a severely anxious young man with artistic skills, who drew an "Anxiety Hero" figure who saves the world by worrying constantly about every little thing, plus a "Chilled Out" figure who never worries and ends up getting hit by a bus. In other words, Amy skillfully emphasized the many BENEFITS of the young's man's constant anxiety, as well as the downside of getting cured. This paradoxically boosted his motivation, and he improved rapidly. This is prototypical TEAM, which is difficult for many therapists to learn, because therapists are so used to, and addicted to, "helping." Amy has developed expertise in aligning with the resistance of her students. paradoxically, she ends up on the same page, and this allows some awesome TEAMwork to emerge. Amy, Rhonda and David talk about the idea of teaching TEAM through creative innovations, with many examples of games Amy has created. For example, she created a game with another one of our fabulous TEAM-CBT therapists, Brandon Vance, MD, which can be played with teens and adults, called "Tune In / Tune Up." This game provides a really fun way to learn the 5-Secrets of Effective Communication. If you're interested, you can check it out at www.gamefulmind.com. Amy and her students have also created a podcast that you might want check out. Although I (David) have been primarily an adult shrink, I have really enjoyed working with teenagers as well. A few years back, I tested hundreds of juveniles who had been arrested in California, many for violent crimes, including murder, at the request of the probation department, using my Brief Mood Survey to find out how depressed, anxious, suicidal, and angry the kids were. Toward the end of the podcast, I describe what happened when I was invited to visit two groups of incarcerated gang members at the Juvenile Hall in San Mateo, California to find out how they felt about the tests I administered, and to get their take on the causes of so much teen violence. I think you'll find this episode to be fun, funny, and inspiring! Amy is a strong advocate for including mental health training in high schools, and her experience illustrates the enormous potential for rapid and profound mental health growth and learning in teens. If you would like to contact Amy, she can be reached at [email protected].

Are there some special techniques therapists need to use when working with LGBTQ patients? Does the therapeutic approach have to be different? In today's podcast, Rhonda and David interview Kyle Jones, a brilliant 5th year PhD student at Palo Alto University. Kyle has been a member of David's training group at Stanford for the past four years, and now sees patients at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. Today's program is based on Kyle's doctoral research on the treatment of LGBTQ patients. To get the interview started, Kyle defines LGBTQ: L = lesbian G = gay B = bisexual T = transsexual Q = questioning, or queer. Then Rhonda asks the obvious question: How does the treatment of LGBTQ individuals differ from the treatment of individuals who are heterosexual? What are the key differences? What special techniques or procedures should therapists use? And what does Kyle's research reveal about the important factors in the treatment of gay individuals? Kyle emphasizes that most important factor is the therapist's attitude toward the patient, as opposed to any special techniques or procedures that are unique to the treatment of the gay population. Sensitivity to and awareness of the unique challenges this population faces in terms of hatred and prejudice are tremendously important. Kyle points out that some therapists place an excessive focus on the patient's gayness, while some tend to sweep this "uncomfortable" issue under the rug. Kyle emphasizes that the therapeutic approach is largely the same for gay and straight patients. In TEAM, we first provide strong empathy, so the patient feels understood and accepted. This, of course, is crucial for all patients. Then we set the agenda, asking the patient if she or he wants help, and if so, what is the problem that he or she wants help with? In other words, there is no special "agenda" that the therapist should impose on the treatment simply because the patient is gay. Kyle mentions that this is not a trivial point, because many therapists will try to set the agenda for the patient, thinking there is some "correct" way one should treat gay people, or some "correct" set of issues that must be addressed. David points out that thinking there is a special approach to gay patients could actually be viewed as a type of bias, thinking that the treatment of members of the LGBTQ community must be somehow "different" or special. In TEAM, we do NOT treat disorders, diagnoses, or "types" of patients. We treat humans in a highly individualize way, using the fractal approach described in a previous podcast. In other words, we ask the client to describe one specific moment when he or she was upset and wants help. Then the treatment flows from the exploration of that specific moment, because all the patient's problems will be encapsulated in how she or he was thinking, feeling, and behaving at that moment. The treatment might then focus on depression, anxiety, a relationship problem, or a habit or addiction. Rhonda, Kyle and David discuss the problem of therapists who have a strong anti-gay bias. David talks about his father's work, trying to convert gay students at the University of Arizona after he retired from his work as a Lutheran Minister in Phoenix, and how much shame and anger David felt about this. David described his positive bias toward LGBTQ individuals, because of the suffering most have had to endure due to hatred and prejudice. David asks whether gays therapists are obligated to announce their sexual orientation to their patients, and Rhonda and Kyle come up with some pretty cool answers! Rhonda points out that when and how to do self-disclosure is a question all therapists face, and that the goal of self-disclosure in therapy should be on how best to help the patient, not the therapist. Again, this question of the hows, whens and ifs of self-disclosure is a general therapy issue, and not something specific to gay therapists. Kyle and David reflect on some of the personal work Kyle did during his training program, and how important that work has been to Kyle as he has evolved into a dynamic, compassionate therapist and teacher. They reminisce about the first personal work Kyle did with David on one of the Sunday hikes. Kyle was feeling depressed because he'd just been rejected, unexpectedly, by his boyfriend, and was able to turn the situation around dramatically and quickly using TEAM-CBT. Kyle also describes his own discovery during college that he was gay, and what happened when he shared his sexual orientation with his parents and brother. The message of this podcast turned out to be pretty simple and basic. The key to the effective treatment of all of our patients is acceptance. The therapist needs to accept the patient, and the patient needs to learn to accept himself or herself. In fact, acceptance seems to be the path to recovery and enlightenment for all of us, whether gay or straight! David D. Burns, MD, Rhonda Barovsky, PsyD and Kyle Jones (

What can you do when you can't identify your negative thoughts? Is it really true that our feelings always result from negative thoughts? How can I get over my public speaking anxiety? Rubens, a faithful and enthusiastic Feeling Good Podcast fan, sent me an email with a terrific question that has both practical and theoretical implications. He wrote: Dear Mr. David, I've read "Feeling Good" and I'm reading "When Panic Attacks" now. Both have and are helping me immensely. However, the one thing I have never understood is that my anxieties and worries often don't come as a thought. For instance, I have an academic presentation tomorrow, and I'm suffering from much anxiety because of that. But the symptoms did not appear because I thought in my mind the sentence "you are going to fail!". In my case, it is usually silent. I just remember that I have a presentation tomorrow, then I immediately feel worried. My chest hurts before any thought. How do I counter-argument my thoughts, if I have none? Thank you for replying, Mr. David! In today's podcast, Rhonda and I address this question and explain what to do when you can't pinpoint your negative thoughts. There are two really good methods. We will also demonstrate how to deal with some of the negative thoughts that typically trigger public speaking anxiety. The cure involves changing the way you think, and changing the way you communicate with the people in your audience. If you've ever struggled with public speaking anxiety, this podcast may be helpful for you! Thank you again, Rubens, for your excellent question! David D. Burns, MD / Rhonda Barovsky, PsyD

I recently published the results of a survey of Feeling Good Podcast fans like yourself. The findings were overwhelmingly positive and illuminating. However, there were a few criticisms as well, like the excellent and thoughtful comments Rhonda and I will address in this podcast. I appreciate negative feedback, as this provides the greatest opportunities for growth and learning. However, like most people, I sometimes find criticisms emotionally challenging and want to lash out, defending myself! Do you sometimes feel that way, too? When I feel defensive, its because I think I have a "self" or some cherished "territory" that's under attack. When I let go of this "self," it can be incredibly liberating to find truth in a criticism and discover that the feedback is really coming from a trusted colleague or friend, rather than some enemy who is trying to destroy or defeat you! Here's what s/he wrote: Dr. Burns, you seem to disregard healing modalities outside of CBT. CBT is wonderful and nobody teachers it better than Dr Burns—I believe that it is a foundational practice to well-being. However, working with difficult emotions is very important and not always well addressed through CBT alone. Thinking CBT is the answer for most issues is loaded with cognitive distortions. Example--Discounting the Positive in other practices, All or Nothing Thinking, Magical Thinking, and seeing CBT as a "cure all." In my personal healing journey CBT has been absolutely essential--as has self compassion, learning to let things go, inner child work, mindfulness, somatic awareness and more. I have noticed there has repeatedly been a dismissive tone for other valuable practices. Obviously. the Feeling Good Podcast is about CBT and sticking to your expertise is essential. However, I would be careful not to disregard other healing practices that could potentially help someone out. I have such respect for Dr Burns and his team-but your words carry weight- please be thoughtful about discounting other methods that could be helping someone. Thank you, whoever you are, for this thought-provoking feedback. And you are SO RIGHT. Cognitive Therapy has value for some problems, but it is definitely NOT a panacea. In fact, no treatment is! The belief that you have THE ANSWER for everything is incredibly misguided but unfortunately, way too common in our field. I have no doubt that many people have shared your concerns. Let us know what you think after you hear today's podcast! David and Rhonda

How would you overcome the fear of aging? Can you use TEAM for sports psychology? Describe your typical day, David-- do you ever get down or anxious? Hi Listeners: Thanks for your many and awesome questions. I love to answer them! And there will be more to come in future podcasts. Your questions are GREAT! Vipul: Tell us about your new book, Feeling Great. How will it be different from Feeling Good? And can people with schizoaffective disorder be helped? (story with Stirling Moorey) Guy: What's a nervous breakdown? Rob: How would you treat a field goal kicker who's afraid of missing the winning field goal? Would you use positive visualizations? Michael: How would you treat someone with the fear of aging? I turn 60 in a few months, and have been experiencing anxiety around not be able to do some of the things I love as I age. Hidem: How fast is fast? I notice your frequent use of the term "High Speed Recovery" (and even Warp Speed) when describing the benefits of TEAM CBT. How rapidly does the average patient recover? Brittany: I had an idea that I think would benefit a lot of us. I'd like you to do a podcast on a week or a day in your life. The ups & downs of your moods, triggers, etc., & most importantly how you deal with them. Do you write out your own Negative Thoughts a Daily Mood Log? Thank you for all of your great questions, comments, and testimonials! Rhonda and I really appreciate that! David and Rhonda PS Here's a great question we did not get to today. We'll do it in a future Ask David, as it's really important. Rubens: What can you do when you can't identify your negative thoughts? I get anxious, but don't seem to have any negative thoughts. Is it really true that our feelings always result from negative thoughts?

Is it REALLY Possible? And Can the Effects Last? Rhonda and David interview Garry, a veteran who David treated for PTSD several years ago at a trauma workshop in Michigan. Garry describes how a repressed horrific memory from his childhood suddenly and forcefully re-emerged when he smelled some Queen Anne's Lace that were in blossom. He suddenly remembered how a school bus he was riding home on hit a horse with a boy, Tommy, who was riding bareback, when the horse suddenly lurched in front of the bus. Tommy was Gary's classmate. The bus driver said, "Don't look!" But Garry watched as his friend, who was trapped under the dead horse, "bled out" and died. Once this totally forgotten memory re-emerged decades later, roughly 18 months prior to Garry's session with David, it constantly intruded into Garry's every interaction for the next year and a half. Garry says, "I was seeing Tommy all the time, and having symptoms of anxiety, intrusive memory and dissociation experiences. I would often see the image of Tommy lying on the pavement superimposed over conversations I was happened with people in an intimate way. It was quite disturbing and anxiety provoking." Garry tearfully describes what he experienced during his TEAM-CBT session with David, including his dissociation at one point during the session, and the profound changes he experienced by the end of the session. Can severe PTSD be treated in a single therapy session? Did Garry really improve? Were the changes real? Did they last? And how did the therapy work? You'll find out when you listen to this amazing and inspiring interview! We are incredibly indebted to Garry for his courage and openness to share this experience with all of you!

Hi Listeners: Most people do not do a very good at helping loved ones, colleagues, or friends who are upset and complaining. Have you ever noticed that when you try to help or give advice they just keep complaining? This can be very frustrating--fortunately there's a fabulous solution to this universal problem. This special podcast features our guest, Dr. Jill Levitt, the Director of Clinical Training at the Feeling Good Institute. Jill is also one of the teachers at David's Tuesday evening psychotherapy training group at Stanford, as is our esteemed podcast host, Dr. Rhonda. Jill describes the "helping" errors she made when her son became despondent after some painful foot surgery. Following the surgery, he was in a cast for weeks, and when the cast was removed, he discovered that he could not move or feel his toes. This is common, and results from muscle atrophy when you are in a cast, and is not dangerous. However, Jill's son was very discouraged and frustrated, and told his mom that he didn't feel like going to school and thought he wasn't ever going to get better. Jill felt exhausted from all the demands on her that day, trying to get him off to school, and trying to get to work on time, and so forth, and gave in to the urge to say things like, "You're going to be fine," which were totally ineffective. Jill describes a similar error that she made when her mother also complained about foot problems and the need for surgery. Her mother loves to hike and was upset that she'd be unable to hike for some time. Jill, perhaps feeling a little impatient with her mom, suggested other forms of exercise, like swimming, and this simply increased her mother's complaints. I'll bet you've experienced this same thing when you tried to "help" someone who was complaining. Even therapists make this type of error all the time. Rhonda, Jill, and I discussed the most common errors we all make when we lose patience with someone who's complaining, and illustrated the techniques that are effective. As usual, they involve the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially Disarming, Stroking, and Feeling Empathy, along with some compassionate I Feel Statements. We also discussed the phenomenon of drifting in and out of Enlightenment, a concept first described by the Buddha. It is easy to drift out of enlightenment when we are rushing around, trying to get breakfast on the table, lunches made, kids to school, and ourselves off to work. It's so easy to feel overwhelmed and frustrated at those moments. Part of the process may include forgiving ourselves when we make mistakes, and using the 5-Secrets to repair relationships with our loved ones when we do. In fact, this can even lead to deeper and more loving relationships. We also discussed a closely related and possibly controversial theme--is it okay to use the Five Secrets just to get someone to stop complaining, especially if you're angry with that person and they tend to complain most or all of the time? Do you always have to use the Five Secrets in a totally sincere manner? I want to thank Dr. Levitt for joining us in this inspiring and illuminating podcast. Whenever Jill teaches, the heavens open up, and this podcast is no exception. Jill is simply a fabulous therapist, teacher, and human being! Click here if you are interested in some online training with Jill! David and Rhonda

Hi Listeners: Many of our podcasts are inspired by listeners like you who send us really cool emails with show ideas. Sometimes the emails are from people wanting self-help with emotional or relationship conflicts. And sometimes, they are from therapists wanting more training and information about TEAM. Rhonda and I love your emails! Yesterday, I got the following email from Dipti Joshi, one of our listeners and TEAM-CBT therapists from India. Dipti flew all the way from India to Canada with her lovely daughter last summer for my Intensive in Whistler, Canada. I am hopeful that Dipti will one day create the first TEAM Treatment and Training Center in India. How cool would that be! Here's the email that Dipti sent me: Dear David, I am really enjoying all the educational materials available on your website. Thank you! I will soon be taking my Level 3 TEAM certification exam, and am seeking your kind blessings for the same! Also, I have a special request for you. Is it possible to have a workshop or podcast on "paradoxical techniques?" I feel this is a very challenging area, and that a lot of skill is needed. Perhaps you can also talk about why paradoxical techniques can be so effective. Meanwhile can you suggest me something to read or listen to for this? Regards, Dipti Thanks, Dipit! Today's podcast will be an introduction to the use of paradox in TEAM therapy, a kind of overview. When my new book, Feeling Great, comes out, I am hoping to do a series of workshops on a variety of powerful paradoxical techniques. And of course, the new book will have a great deal of instruction on paradoxical techniques as well. These are the four key components of TEAM: T = Testing E = Empathy A = (Paradoxical) Agenda Setting M = Methods In today's podcast, Dr. Rhonda and I will explain why each of these components is inherently paradoxical. For example, when you do the T = Testing, you assess changes in the patient's symptoms from the start to the end of the session, and the patient rates you on the Empathy and Helpfulness scales as well, When you look at the ratings, you will probably discover that you aren't helping your patient much, if at all. You may also discover that your perxceptions of how the patient feels, and how the patients feels about you, are off-base, and sometimes alarmingly so. This can be very disturbing, especially if you're not use to this kind of information. However, in TEAM, we are actually hoping for failure, and welcome that kind of "disturbing" information. Why is this? Isn't therapy all about recovery and making positive changes? Why in the world would the therapist want to know that he or she is not helping? It's because many of the most important breakthroughs in therapy come from the therapist's discovery that he or she is failing. We WANT to fail! Why? David illustrates this paradox by describing his discovery that he was not actually helping a patient he thought he'd helped enormously. David explains how and why this shocking information led to a tremendous breakthrough. When you review how your patient rated you at the end of the session, you may discover that your patient gives you failing grades on the E = Empathy scale. The patient's ratings may indicate that he or she didn't experience you as sufficiently warm and caring, or completely trustworthy, and that you didn't really "get" how she or he was feeling inside. Once again, as TEAM therapists we welcome failing grades on the Empathy Scale. Why? It's because your worst therapeutic failure will nearly always be your greatest success in disguise. How can this be? It seems absurd, or impossible. Karl Rogers told us that empathy is the necessary and sufficient condition for personality change. So why would a TEAM therapist hope to discover that he or she is failing in this category? You'll discover the explanation for this paradox on today's podcast. When the patient asks for help during the A = Agenda Setting phase of the session, the TEAM therapist doesn't jump in and offer to help, using this or that therapy method. In fact, the TEAM therapist will often assume the role of the patient subconscious resistance and argue for the status quo, sincerely encouraging the patient to cling to the feelings of depression, anxiety, shame, worthlessness, hopelessness, and anger. The therapist will bring out all the reasons why the patient should RESIST change. Why in the world would a therapist want to do that? It sounds crazy! You'll find out on this podcast. And finally, during the M = Methods phase of the session, the TEAM therapist will be working with the patient on his or her negative thoughts, like, "I'm worthless," or "I'm not as good as I should be," or "I'm hopelessly damaged because of the abuse I experienced as a child." And the TEAM therapist's goal is not success, but rather failing as fast as you can, trying technique after technique that DOESN'T work and the patient's belief in the Negative Thought is still 100%. Why would a therapist

My wife claims that I never listen! How can I possibly agree with her? My wife left me! How can I correct the distortions in her criticisms? How can you deal with people who constantly wallow in self-pity? And more! Hi podcast fans, Today we've got some terrific Five Secrets questions that you have submitted. Mike #1: I love your Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Why does secret #4, "I Feel" Statements, not include Thought Empathy? Mike #2: I have seen communication models that include expressing and listening for needs. Aren't needs and wants important and important to express? Al: How can I help my wife recognize her many cognitive distortions, like All-or-Nothing Thinking? It seems hopeless! Guy: If a loved one says, "You never listen," how could I possibly find the truth in this statement? How could you genuinely agree with an All-or-Nothing statement such as, "You never …."? Both Sonja and Eileen asked: How can you deal with someone who constantly wallows in self-pity and plays the role of victim. It's exhausting! Thanks for tuning in, and keep the great questions coming! David and Rhonda

Session with Rhonda, Part 2 Last week we published the first half of the session with Rhonda, who was struggling with severe performance anxiety about her work as the new host of the Feeling Good Podcast host. We did the initial T = Testing, which indicated many intense negative feelings, as well as E = Empathy phase of TEAM therapy session. This week, we include the conclusion of the session, with A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting and M = Methods, plus final T = Testing to see how effective, or ineffective the session was. As a reminder of the first podcast, plus the work done on this podcast, you can review Rhonda's Daily Mood Log here. When you listen, you will see that the changes Rhonda experienced were amazing,. But were these changes real? It almost seem too easy, and too fast, especially for a problem that started in childhood and persisted right up to the present moment. Was the session just a publicity stunt, perhaps, or some kind of superficial quick fix? David asks Rhonda about this, as well as this question: 'If the changes were real, what caused the changes? David and Rhonda used many TEAM-CBT techniques they during the session, including these: David Empathized with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication at the start of the session during the E = Empathy phase. Of course, good empathy is necessary throughout a therapy session. David melted away Rhonda's resistance during the A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting. These techniques included: Straightforward Invitation Miracle Cure Question Magic Button Positive Reframing Pivot Question Magic Dial The M = Methods that were helpful in this session included included: The Individual Downward Arrow to identify the Self-Defeating Beliefs that triggered Rhonda's feelings of inadequacy.Rhonda enjoyed this exercise and felt it was on target. We identified many beliefs, including: Perfectionism Perceived Perfectionism Achievement Addiction Approval Addiction Love Addiction Fear of Rejection Submissiveness Inadequacy schema Spotlight Fantasy Brushfire Fallacy Superwoman The Interpersonal Downward Arrow to illuminate how Rhonda saw her relationship with her father, with David, and with some other people, including the podcast listeners. This is kind of like Psychoanalysis at warp speed. Rhonda said this felt uncomfortable, perhaps because it cast David somewhat as a dangerous ogre! David and Rhonda smashed several of Rhonda's Self-Defeating Beliefs with the Feared Fantasy Technique Identify the Distortions Paradoxical Double Standard Technique Externalization of Voices Acceptance Paradox / Self-Defense Paradigm Self-Disclosure / Exposure The Experimental Technique Thinking in Shades of Gray Finally, if the changes were real, will they last? Or will Rhonda just slip back into more performance anxiety and self-doubt? You can click on this link if you'd like to review the evolution of Rhonda's Daily Mood Log during the session, and see her ratings on the Brief Mood Survey before and after the session at this link. You can also review her ratings of David on the Empathy and Helpfulness scales at the end of the session. You can also review her interesting comments on what she liked the least, and what she liked the most about her session with David. I want to thank Rhonda, my esteemed colleague, friend, and wonderful podcast host, for giving all of this incredible gift of her humanness. And I, Rhonda, want to thank the most marvelous, compassionate and incredible David Burns, for the gift of healing and facilitating me experiencing enlightenment and peace from these difficult feelings and negative thoughts that were devastating me. I feel so much gratitude, for all of our work together, for you trusting me enough to invite me to be the host of these podcasts, and for the gift of your friendship. Words can't express the full depth of my love for you and for everything you have given me both personally and professionally! Did you like the personal work we did? Was it helpful for you personally? Rhonda took a chance and was courageous to share intensely personal experience with you. Let us know if you liked this! If you are a therapist, or an interested patient, let us know if this was it a good learning experience. Would you like to hear more podcasts with live personal work? We are here to serve you, so share your thoughts and feelings with us, as well as your wish list for future podcasts! David and Rhonda

"I sound stupid! . . . Ouch!" Have you every struggled with performance anxiety, thinking you might fail or not be good enough? I think it is fair to say that every therapist in my Tuesday training group at Stanford has struggled with fairly intense feelings of anxiety and self-doubt, and perhaps you have, too, thinking you should be smarter or better than you are, and fearing that others would judge you if they saw your "true self." In fact, I would suspect that most of our podcast fans have struggled with these feelings at some time during your life, and maybe even recently or now. Well, today, we've got a wonderful program in store for you. Our own Dr. Rhonda Barovsky asked me for personal help with her own anxieties about being the new podcast host. I asked if she wanted to do it live, on a podcast, and she generously agreed! In this heart-warming and very human session, Rhonda shares the negative thoughts and feelings she had when she listened to herself on several podcasts and begin noticing this or that error she made. She felt intensely down, anxious, ashamed, inadequate, rejected, embarrassed, discouraged, frustrated, and angry, to name just a few of her negative feelings, and her mind was flooded with negative thoughts like these: I sound stupid and inarticulate, and some of my comments were inaccurate, like when I said psychiatric diagnoses are meaningless labels. I've had feelings of insecurity ever since I was a child, and should be over this by now! David is going to regret having me as the podcast host! Everyone will know I'm a fraud, and no one will like or respect me. People will judge and reject me, and I'll end up ostracized and alone. She believed these thoughts at 100%. You might recall that the Necessary and Sufficient Conditions for emotional distress are: You have one or more negative thoughts. You believe the negative thoughts. In today's podcast, you will hear the first half of the session, which included T = Testing as well as E = Empathy. During the Empathy phase, David also included two Uncovering Techniques, the individual Downward Arrow Technique and the Interpersonal Downward Arrow Technique, so that he and Rhonda could identify the Self-Defeating Beliefs under the surface, like Perfectionism, Perceived Perfectionism, the Approval Addiction, Superwoman, and more. This is because there are two goals in TEAM-CBT. The first goal is to crush the negative thoughts in the here and now, so that you'll feel relief. The second goal is to modify the Self-Defeating Beliefs so you'll be less prone to similar thoughts and feelings in the future. In next week's podcast, you will hear the second half of the session, which included A = (Paradoxical) Agenda Setting and M = Methods. You'll also hear the final T = Testing to find out how effective the session was, and how Rhonda rated David on Empathy and Helpfulness. I think you'll find that both sessions are incredibly inspiring and wonderful sources of learning as well. I want to give a shout out to Rhonda for being so courageous and vulnerable and real, and for making this live therapy session possible! After you've heard Part 2 next week, let us know what you think! You've all responded very positively to the live therapy we've done on the Feeling Good Podcasts, and you've asked for more. Rhonda and I are committed to making that happen for you, and we are both so grateful for your support, which means a lot to both of us. Thank you! David and Rhonda

Are the rapid changes real? And do they last? In the Spring of 2017, we published our first live TEAM therapy session so our listeners could peak behind closed doors to see an actual TEAM therapy session. Although the session lasted about two hours, we broke it up into seven consecutive podcasts including expert commentary on each segment of the session. If you have not yet heard them, they were Feeling Good Podcast #29, published on April 10, 2017 through Podcast #35, on May 1, 2017 which was exactly two years from the time today's podcast was recorded. My co-therapist for this session was Dr. Jill Levitt, the Director of Clinical Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California. Our patient was a physician named Mark who'd had two goals for his life when he was growing up. The first goal was to become an outstanding doctor. The second goal was to have a large and loving family. At the start of the session, Mark confessed that although he'd achieved his first goal, he'd failed to achieve his second goal because he wasn't able to get close to his sons, especially his oldest son. At the start of the session he rated his relationship with his son on the Relationship Satisfaction Scale as only 2 out of 30, an extraordinarily low score. In addition, his scores on the Daily Mood Log indicated he felt very sad, unhappy, guilty, and ashamed. He also felt very inadequate, lonely, self-conscious, discouraged and defeated, frustrated, and somewhat resentful and upset, too. He confessed that he'd felt this way for years. By the end of the session, these feelings had largely disappeared, and Mark was in a state of joy. In fact, we all felt elated—but will it last? Many people complain that the rapid and dramatic change I experienced when I do TEAM therapy cannot be real, and cannot last, and that it has to be superficial or fake. They insist that real change can only unfold slowly, over years, or even after a decade or more of talk therapy. I respect critical thinking, and if you'd told me that such rapid and dramatic changes were possible ten years ago, before TEAM had emerged with all the new technology, I would have thought you were a con artist too! Of course, others have argued the other side of the coin, pointing out that TEAM is research-based and genuinely appears to represent a significant, or even amazing breakthrough in psychotherapy for depression and anxiety, and that the changes ARE real. They have also argued that rapid change should be the goal of treatment, rather than just nursing people along for prolonged periods of time without tangible and measurable changes. Rhonda and I had the wonderful opportunity of sitting down to interview Mark this last Sunday, following one of my Sunday hikes, so we could try to get some answers to these questions. We asked Mark whether he now felt that the changes were real, and how he'd been doing in the two years since the session. Did the changes last? The interview with Mark was pretty mind-blowing. He confessed that at the start of the session he, too, was very skeptical that years and years of negative feelings could be reversed in a single therapy session. Then he summarized the session he'd had with Dr. Levitt and me in May of 2017, and his tears flowed once again, as he recalled his feelings of failure at being unable to connect with his sons. Rhonda asked Mark what happened after the session. Did he just relapse back into the same way he'd been feeling? Mark said that right after his session, there was an amazing and almost instantaneous transformation of his relationships with all of his sons. He used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication for the first time in his interactions with his sons, and they opened up immediately. He has felt extremely happy, over joyed, really, and reported that: The changes were VERY real! The changes DID last. His relationships with his children and grandchildren are now fantastic. Rhonda and I are incredibly indebted to Mark for giving us such a transformative and inspiring interview! It probably won't quiet all of the critics, but this information may be illuminating and inspiring for those who are intrigued by the many new developments in TEAM-CBT. And my message to those who are still critical of TEAM, or critical of me—please continue to use your critical thinking and skepticism when you evaluate TEAM or any other approach. It was my own skepticism about the things I learned during my residency training and clinical work that actually led to the emergence of TEAM therapy. I don't want to quiet my critics, I want to praise all of you! David and Rhonda Coming Up Soon Follow-Up with Gary: Rhonda and David interview Gary, a veteran who David treated for PTSD several years ago at a trauma workshop. Gary describes how a repressed horrific memory from his childhood suddenly and forcefully re-emerged when he smelled some Queen Anne's Lace that were in blossom, and what he experienced during his TEAM-CBT session wit

Do I have ADHD? Is it a real disorder? Hi podcast fans, Today we've got some terrific questions that you have submitted. General Questions Jose and Bri both asked: How would you treat hypochondria? Christian: How would you treat an abuse survivor? I've heard that talk therapy is inadequate for healing trauma! Ted: Is there such a thing as healthy euphoria? Hillary: Would you do a podcast covering the treatment of mania? Jim: I think I have ADHD, but some doctors claim it's not a true diagnosis. What do you think? Dan: What your thoughts are on LSD in the treatment of depression and anxiety? I could not get to all of your excellent questions in the time provided. The next time we do Ask David with general questions, we will include these: Guy: What's a nervous breakdown? Rob: How would you treat a field goal kicker who's afraid of missing the winning field goal? Would you use positive visualizations? Michael: How would you treat someone with the fear of aging? I turn 60 in a few months! Hidem: How fast is fast? You seem to get super-fast recoveries from your patients most of the time. How about other therapists? How rapidly does the average patient recover> Rubens: What you can do when you're upset but can't identify any negtaive thoughts? Next week, our Ask David will focus on questions about relationship conflicts and problems. Rhonda and I have lots of other cool programs planned in upcoming weeks. Thanks for tuning in today, and over the past months. We will hit one million downloads in a week or two (this is April, 2019). Rhonda, Fabrice, and I deeply appreciate your support! David and Rhonda

What's Bibliotherapy? Hi podcast fans,David and Rhonda discuss and old controversy: Can a self-help book can really help? Or will you need psychotherapy and / or an antidepressant if you are seriously depressed? [gallery ids="60,357,58,54,51,50,42" type="rectangular"] I (DB) wrote up the following overview of bibliotherapy research prior to today's recording with Rhonda. I hope you find it interesting! I have to admit that I've never had much respect for self-help books. Many of them seem to be written by narcissistic individuals with pretty superficial ideas who mainly want to promote themselves, and this has been my strong bias as well. When I pick one up in a bookstore, I nearly always get immediately turned off. And I get a flood of them in the mail as well, from authors asking for an endorsement. I have a policy of not doing book or product endorsements—it's the easiest way to say no. And I never thought of my book, Feeling Good: The new Mood Therapy, as a self-help book. My idea was that people receiving cognitive therapy could read it between sessions as a way of speeding up their recovery, so that the therapist could do the individual work and not have to do so much teaching about the basic concepts, like my list of ten cognitive distortions. But at the same time, shortly after the book was released, I began getting letters, and later on emails, from individuals who said they book had actually caused them to recover from pretty severe depression. In fact, over the years, I would guess I've received more than ten thousand letters or emails like that, and probably way more than that, maybe even fifty thousand. Still, it had not occurred to me that it might actually be a self-help book, in spite of the fact that lots of the people who wrote me said the book had helped them much more than the treatments they'd received over the years. One day a colleague asked if I'd seen the article about my book in the New York Times. Apparently, Dr. Forrest Scogin, a research psychologist from the University of Alabama Medical Center, had studied the effects of reading a self-help book on patients seeking treatment for moderate to severe depression. In a nutshell, their studies indicated that simply reading Feeling Good may help some patients overcome depression and may help to prevent future relapses as well. This finding was a shock, but was not entirely unexpected due to all the testimonials I'd been received from people who'd read the book. In their first study, Dr. Forest Scogin and his colleagues told patients seeking treatment for depression that they'd be placed on a four-week waiting list before beginning treatment. Half of the patients were given a copy of either my Feeling Good or a self-help book on depression by Dr. Peter Lewinsohn called Up from Depression. The researchers suggested that the patients could read their book while they were waiting for their first appointment with the psychiatrist. The other half of the patients who were placed on the four-week waiting list did not receive a copy a self-help book. Both groups of patients were contacted each week by a research assistant who administered a test to assess the severity of depression. The goal of course was to find out if there were any changes in depression in any of the patients. The results of the study were interesting. Approximately two-thirds of the patients who received one of the self-help books improved or recovered from depression during the four weeks, even though they received no other treatment with drugs or psychotherapy. In fact, they improved to such an extent that most of them did not even need any further treatment. In contrast, the patients who did not receive one of the books failed to improve during the four-week waiting period. As far as I know, this was the first time that the anti-depressant effects of a self-help book had ever been documented in carefully controlled research study published in a scientific journal. Then the researchers did a number of additional experiments. First, they gave a copy of one of the two self-help books to the patients in the second group who had not improved. They asked them to wait four more weeks before beginning treatment, but suggested they read the book during their wait. Two-thirds of them also improved and did not need further treatment. This study was published in the medical journal, Gerontologist. Some critics challenged the study, arguing that the improvement in the patients who received the self-help book might have simply been a placebo effect. In other words, maybe it was just the reading, and the expectation of recovery, that helped, as opposed to the ideas and techniques described in the books. To test this, the investigators studied a new group of patients who were asked to read a "placebo" book while waiting for treatment. The researchers chose a classic book by Victor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning. If these patients also improved, it would confirm that the effect