Disorder

Diplomacy is a game, and geopolitics is a psychological sport. Though we may root for the ‘democratic good guys’, it is often the disordering ‘autocratic bad guys’ that achieve their aims through effective use of psychological tactics like bluffing and intimidation. In this episode, we meet Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair’s former Chief of Staff, who helped negotiate landmark treaties like the Good Friday Agreement. He tells us how our leaders could use various skills to get to mutually beneficial agreements. We’ll also meet Kenneth Dekleva, a former US diplomat and a Professor of Psychiatry, who will present certain ways we can psychologically outfox disorderers like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Jonathan Powell’s Majestic work on the Negotiations in Northern Ireland is here Get Kenneth Dekleva’s latest books. The Last Violinist here Read a recent article by Kenneth here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Alex Hall Hall talks to Tom Fletcher, the former British Ambassador to Lebanon. Tom and Alex discuss the Palestinian refugee and surrounding Arab states narratives as an entry point to examine whether there’s any risk of the war spreading. They delve deeper into: the rationale for humanitarian de-escalation, the interests and motives of players like Lebanon, Hezbollah and Iran, and what international actors like the UK, the US and the UN need to be doing to stabilize the situation, and how they can be working towards longer term solutions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Tom Fletcher’s writing around this issue at here You can listen to Jason’s take on the regional context on the PREVAIL podcast here You can read current Alex’s writing around this issue here Read, As dark as things seem, the war in Gaza could end up restarting the peace process here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As the Israeli-Hamas war enters a new phase, Alex and Jason discuss how hard it is to speak publicly and diplomatically about an issue that’s become so partisan and so emotive. Plus: the pair talk about Jason’s idea for interim post-war governance of Gaza involving a Qatari-Saudi-Egyptian-Emirati condominium which would need to be mediated by American and British diplomats. Although only a medium-term solution, Jason believes it could give key regional players a stake in forging peace in the region. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Jason’s Article, “Qatar is the key to peace in postwar Gaza” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Across the world, there are vast swathes of the planet (especially our oceans and atmosphere) that have been left without governance, and into that space have stepped terrorist groups, disordering non-state actors, drug cartels, and polluting and exploitative corporations. So how can global institutions help bring a semblance of order back to these places ? In this episode, Sam Quinones will help us look at how rogue actors have helped to perpetuate disorder across the world – for example, in Mexico where drug cartels turn the absence of governance into proift. Harold A. Trinkunas talks to us about how ungoverned spaces in Venezula and other failed States came to be and what their existence says about our era of disorder. In the conclusion, Alex and Jason ‘Order the Disorder’ propose how communities and interested institution can mitigate the disordering impact of spaces that are without global governance. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Get Harold’s co-authored book, Ungoverned Spaces: Alternatives to state authority in an era of softened sovereignty here For more on Sam Quinones, visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From London to Miami, illicit cash has been flowing through the West’s financial systems. Coordination failures have allowed disruptors like Russia to prop up a transnational kleptocracy – while groups like the UN, IMF and NATO are ill-equipped to deal with this problem, especially as key players in Britain and America, actively encourage the financial deregulation on which the kleptocrats thrive. In this episode we look at the origins of globalized finance and how illicit money flows cause global disorder by empowering thieves and increasing inequality, and what can be done to stop the spread of dirty cash. Peter Geoghegan explains how illicit money influences British politics. Tena Prelec examines the role of Eastern Europe and sketches how the answer out of our current mess is to advocate for radical transparency. In the Ordering the Disorder segment we showcase why we should focus on ordering our own house first rather than focusing on the sins of our systemic competitors. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more on Peter Geoghegan is here For more on Tena Prelec, visit here More on this kleptocracy and tax havens can be found here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On Saturday October the 7th the world awoke to the most horrific, chaotic, and game changing Arab-Israeli war in 50 years. But despite how tragic the news was, it wasn’t at all surprising. Internal divisions and partisan dysfunction inside previously functioning democracies (like Israel) have left previously secure and united societies, divided and open to their enemies. This has been an open invitation to those who wish to actively disorder global affairs. In this bonus episode, Jason Pack and David Patrikarakos discuss how, in our era of disorder, conflicts in one part of the world create immediate disordering reactions elsewhere. They’ll also talk about David’s time in Gaza, Jason’s conversations with anti-Semitic cab drivers in Lebanon and the West Bank, and how the internet radicalizes reporting on this conflict. Jason and David disagree agreeably about whether Hamas has already won this war. Finally, they’ll try to suggest ways out of this conflict, as they try to Order the Disorder. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here For depth on the historical context of the War: listen to Jason on Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lines here Brett Stevens NYT Op-ed on potential solutions here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems. In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more on Kori Schake, visit here For more on Jamie Shea, visit here Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands here For more on Charles Kupchan, visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Migration has become one of the most emotive political topics. Fears surrounding the topic are essential to the rise of Neo-Populism. All the while, migration is increasing; over the past decade over 50 million more people have been moving internationally than in previous decades. So how does migration work (or not work) in our era of global disorder? What problems does it solve and what problems does it create? Can disordered migration be curbed and the benefits of ‘orderly’ migration achieved in a more regulated manner? Or do we have a humanitarian imperative to preserve even disorderly migration? In this episode, Parag Khanna discusses how creating a transparent and fair global market for migrants could help optimize the economics behind migration. Lawrence Huang analyses how the current global management of migration operates and why the way Neo-Populists constant diatribes about ‘uncontrolled migration’ are harming any real attempts to order the space. In the ‘Ordering the Disorder’ segment, Alex and Jason debate what international coordination mechanisms are needed to deal with mass migration and whether coherent collective action could ever emerge to forge implementable solutions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/climate-change-geopolitics Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Link Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here Get Parag Khanna’s book “Move: Where People Are going For A better future” here For more on Lawrence Huang’s work visit here Read Alex's piece on migration for the Byline Times here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It has long been held that the primary disorderers on the global stage are China and Russia. Let’s not forget, though, that medium powers, such as Iran, are also able to majorly disorder geopolitics. Meanwhile, imploded post-conflict countries like Libya are capable of injecting serious financial and jihadi contagion into neighbouring states and fuelling the Global Enduring Disorder. In this episode, we discuss how the tooth and nail struggle for global leadership leads some states to play the role of disorderers. We also examine how failures to coordinate at the international level exacerbate problems on the ground. In specific, we break down how Iran promotes global disorder as a strategy to increase its influence (via an interview with Ali Ansari) and how Libya’s profound domestic disorder infects the global system (through talking to Stephanie Williams). Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/struggle-for-global-leadership Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here For more on Ali Ansari, visit here For more from Stephanie Williams, visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Although the birth of the internet was an interplay between American defense contractors and American tech firms, the US government actively chose to not regulate the commercial aspects of what it had birthed. From disinformation to cyber warfare, how can we better control the internet and stop it from reinforcing the Global Enduring Disorder? In this episode, former FBI Agent Asha Rangappa helps us understand what makes these new technologies so disruptive and how the West’s adversaries understand the politics of cyberspace. War Correspondent David Patrikarakos tells us about the physical impact of these new technologies on ongoing conflicts. Both conclude that our leaders have been naïve about the fact that for more than a decade we have been facing an existential multi-front cyber-war. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/unregulated-cyberspace Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Note Links For more from Asha Rangappa, subscribe to her email newsletter, The Freedom Academy here. She is also co-host of the podcast, It’s Complicated, with Renato Mariotti which you can find here. Get David Patrikarakos’ book, War in 140 Characters: How Social Media Is Reshaping Conflict in the Twenty-First Century here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the past few decades leaders like Trump, Orban, and Bolsonaro have ridden a wave of popular outrage to rise to power. But what came first: the Neo-Populists or the era of Global Enduring Disorder? In this episode we chart the rise of the Neo-Populists, their impact on global order, and what we can do to stop them. Sean Wilentz explains the difference between real populism (like Bernie Sanders) and ‘faux’ or neo-populists (like Trump), while Anne Applebaum takes us through the missed opportunities and co-ordination failures of the post-Cold War years. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/neo-populism Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Note Links For more from Anne Applebaum here For more on Sean Wilentz here For more on Jonathan Winer here For more on Jamie Shea here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We are living through an unprecedented era. International institutions like the UN are incapable of tackling global challenges, disordering powers like China and Russia are actively promoting chaos rather than order, and democratic countries are not effectively coordinating on transnational threats. The result? An era of Global Enduring Disorder has swept the world. We see it in the rise and fall of Trump, Bolsonaro, and Boris, inaction on climate change, and never-ending civil wars in Yemen, Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. In this episode, Jason Pack and Alexandra Hall Hall share their personal journeys and walk us through the fundamental features of our era of Disorder. We hear from esteemed historian Timothy Garton Ash, who will chart how the West has frayed, while author and podcaster Brian Klaas will tell us why democracies frequently pick the wrong leaders—especially in times of crisis. Disorder is produced by George McDonagh. Theme music is “These Spreadsheets Make Me Sick” by Glass Boy. Other music is provided by Glass Boy and Luca La Morgia. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Note Links Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here For more from Brian Klaas, subscribe to his substack here Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder. The Disorder podcast teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, NATO Foundation Senior Analyst, and Alexandra Hall Hall, a former British Ambassador, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues. At the conclusion of each episode, they will proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’. Website: disordershow.com https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices