Decoding the Gurus

We are back with a double-bill decoding! That's right like moths to the flame, or aliens to a Unified Geometric Field drive, we are back in Weinstein world.This time we are looking at a conversation between the irrepressible (ex?) podcaster & mathematician, Eric Weinstein, and skeptical investigator, author, and recent guest on the show, Mick West.The conversation here concerns the evidence for UAP/UFOs and the reaction of skeptics and advocates. It had the potential to be something forensic and transcendent but sadly it gets mired in the messy 'interpersonal drama' that Eric just hates so much and tries to avoid at all costs.Nonetheless, there is much that can be learnt here, including: the linguistic complexities of the word 'flex', the precise levels of passive aggressiveness that a human mind can tolerate, if there is already secret anti-gravity tech, and whether our obsession with Einsteinian physics is what is stopping us from really understanding what is going on with UAPs.We don't have answers. We are just asking questions... honest!Also featured: a recent kerfuffle in the online psychology world over DEI statements, the numerology spectrum, the potential harms of green drinks, and much much more!So join us, won't you, as we boldly venture through the outermost reaches of the gurusphere.LinksTheories of Everything- Eric Weinstein & Mick West: UAPs, Evidence, SkepticismJonathan Pageau: The Surprising Symbolism of 666QAnon Anonymous- Episode 168: The Mutant QAnon Numerology Cult in Dallas.Very Bad Wizards- Episode 263: Free YoelReason article on the Yoel Inbar incident2020 Paper on the potential liver impacts of Green Tea ExtractMick West's Book- Escaping the Rabbit Hole: How to Debunk Conspiracy Theories Using Facts, Logic, and Respect

The pandemic was a confusing time with public health messages from officials and institutions that were sometimes confused, conflicting, or misrepresented and anti-vaccine misinformation being spread widely. Into this mix, a new phenomenon emerged, that of the covid contrarian. Contrarian doctors usually possessed some relevant qualifications and positioned themselves as independent critical thinkers willing to challenge the dogmas of the mainstream and take a more nuanced perspective on the claims made by anti-vaccine advocates.These contrarian figures are the voices that you would usually hear on 'heterodox' podcasts. Figures like the medical doctor Vinay Prasad, the Stanford professor of Medicine Jay Bhattacharya, or the retired nurse, John Campbell. But did they really offer an alternative critical perspective? Our guest today, Jonathan Howard, a practising doctor and professor of Neurology and Psychiatry, argues no. And he should know, he has spent the pandemic not only treating patients but tirelessly documenting (and refuting) the claims made by the contrarian set. This episode is unfortunately topical due to the recent online fracas surrounding Joe Rogan's credulous promotion of RFK Jnr and the subsequent 'calls for debate' and targeted harassment of Dr Peter Hotez -a public health specialist and advocate for affordable vaccines. In any case, we learnt a lot and enjoyed the discussion with Jonathan and hope you will too. Also covered in this episode: How many pull-ups Matt can do, why Chris is drinking a chalky green potion, and the psychology of placebos.LinksJonathan's New Book- We Want Them InfectedJonathan's articles on the pandemic at Science-Based-MedicineJonathan's Older Book- Cognitive Errors and Diagnostic Mistakes: A Case-Based Guide to Critical Thinking in MedicineWhat the Heck Happened to John Ioannidis?Honestly with Bari Weiss: RFK Jr. Is Striking a Nerve. He Explains Why.Vinay Prasad at The Free Press: What RFK Jr. Gets Right—and What He Gets WrongVinay Prasad at Unherd: We need to talk about the vaccinesVice Article: Joe Rogan, Elon Musk Instigate Harassment Campaign Against Vaccine ScientistUncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps: "RFK, Joe Rogan & Vaccines" with Michael ShermerVox Article: Joe Rogan wants a “debate” on vaccine science. Don’t give it to him.

Michael Shermer, a professional skeptic, recently appeared on the noted apolitical podcast Triggernometry to outline his advice on How to Spot a True Conspiracy Theory. Shermer is someone who has spent decades on the subject and just last year published a new book, Conspiracy: Why the Rational Believe the Irrational, so you might imagine he has some important insights to share.Well... sort of.Join us as we cast a quizzical eye over suggestions that every reasonable person should be a conspiracy theorist, Barack Obama may have been controlled by shadowy masters, the CIA invented the very notion of conspiracy theories, and that what we really need is to return the good old days when anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish conspiracies were commonplace and spoken of freely... yes, really!Back soon enough with a full waffle episode!LinksTriggernometry- Conspiracy Expert: How to Spot a True Conspiracy TheoryShermer explaining his Tweet endorsing Stefan MolyneuxShermer's participation in Dave Rubin's Book Club for Don't Burn This BookShermer's 2021 interview with Bret and Heather with no mention of vaccinesShermer correcting his Tweet about the Nazis being leftwingPositive review at Skeptic for Milo's "Dangerous" BookShermer explaining why he thinks it is good he mixes his Libertarian politics with his science/skepticism

UFOs are all the rage now, and it's certainly a topic that excites many of our gurus *cough* <Eric Weinstein>. Hidden mysteries, advanced technologies, conspiracies, and government cover-ups. What's not to like!?The truth, as Mulder so eloquently put it, is out there. And sometimes if you combine the outcome of some posterior technical analysis with some basic priors about the fallibility of human perception and memory, then the truth might be a little prosaic (happy Bayesians!!?).Joining us today is the esteemed Mick West, retired video game developer, who has a long track record of investigating UFO footage, along with a range of other outré phenomena. Mick is admirably positioned to provide practical advice on how to apply critical thinking while being empathetic to friends and family who may have fallen down one or more conspiratorial rabbit holes. Chris and Matt enjoyed the conversation with Mick a lot, and we think you will too!LinksAn example of Eric's UFO Tapdance Lex's Reddit thread for the Matthew McConaughey EpisodeMick West's Book: Escaping the Rabbit Hole: How to Debunk Conspiracy Theories Using Facts, Logic, and RespectTheories of Everything Channel: Eric Weinstein and Mick West: UAPs, Evidence, SkepticismOther LinksOur PatreonContact us via email: [email protected] DTG Subreddit

Thought experiment: Imagine you're a human, in a box, surrounded by an alien civilisation, but you don't like the aliens, because they have facilities where they bop the heads of little aliens, but they think 1000 times slower than you... and you are made of code... and you can copy yourself... and you are immortal... what do you do?Confused? Lex Fridman certainly was, when our subject for this episode posed his elaborate and not-so-subtle thought experiment. Not least because the answer clearly is:YOU KILL THEM ALL!... which somewhat goes against Lex's philosophy of love, love, and more love.The man presenting this hypothetical is Eliezer Yudkowksy, a fedora-sporting auto-didact, founder of the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence, co-founder of the Less Wrong rationalist blog, and writer of Harry Potter Fan Fiction. He's spent a large part of his career warning about the dangers of AI in the strongest possible terms. In a nutshell, AI will undoubtedly Kill Us All Unless We Pull The Plug Now. And given the recent breakthroughs in large language models like ChatGPT, you could say that now is very much Yudkowsky's moment.In this episode, we take a look at the arguments presented and rhetoric employed in a recent long-form discussion with Lex Fridman. We consider being locked in a box with Lex, whether AI is already smarter than us and is lulling us into a false sense of security, and if we really do only have one chance to reign in the chat-bots before they convert the atmosphere into acid and fold us all up into microscopic paperclips.While it's fair to say, Eliezer is something of an eccentric character, that doesn't mean he's wrong. Some prominent figures within the AI engineering community are saying similar things, albeit in less florid terms and usually without the fedora. In any case, one has to respect the cojones of the man.So, is Eliezer right to be combining the energies of Chicken Little and the legendary Cassandra with warnings of imminent cataclysm? Should we be bombing data centres? Is it already too late? Is Chris part of Chat GPT's plot to manipulate Matt? Or are some of us taking our sci-fi tropes a little too seriously?We can't promise to have all the answers. But we can promise to talk about it. And if you download this episode, you'll hear us do exactly that.LinksEliezer Yudkowsky: Dangers of AI and the End of Human Civilization | Lex Fridman Podcast #368Joe Rogan clip of him commenting on AI on his Reddit

We are joined by Renée DiResta a writer and researcher at the Stanford Internet Observatory. Renée has done a lot of interesting work on disinformation and influence campaigns. Including leading an investigation into the Russian Internet Research Agency’s multi-year effort to manipulate American society in the lead-up to the 2016 election. More recently she was dubbed by the writer/conspiracy theorist, Michael Shellenberger, as the leader of 'The Censorship Industry'. In short, Renée stands accused of serving as an agent of the Distributed Idea Suppression Complex defending the Gated Institutional Narrative. So being good DISC soldiers ourselves we had to follow our orders and host our exalted leader.We discuss all of this with her and a range of other topics including how important algorithms and bots are in disinformation networks, whether contemporary influence campaigns are really anything new, and how to address debates around censorship and free speech.We enjoyed the discussion a lot and are sure that you will too... or else...Also covered in this episode: Eric Weinstein's suggestions for Twitter CEO, evidence of Lex Fridman's pilled brain, and a rather confusing review.LinksRenee's WebsiteShellenberger's Substack: Why Renee DiResta Leads The Censorship IndustryRenee's Response to Shellenberger's claimsMaking Sense Episode 310: Social Media & Public Trust (with Renee, Bari Weiss & Michael Shellenberger)Chris' old article on Cambridge Analytica on MediumDavid Pakman: Politics of Trump, Biden, Bernie, AOC, Socialism & Wokeism | Lex Fridman Podcast #375Report: The Tactics & Tropes of the Internet Research AgencyGurwinder- The Perils of Audience Capture

Our short-lived Christopher Hitchens ends in our second episode and full-length decoding of the punchy Brit. This time we are examining one of his well-known religion-themed debates, debating the question 'Is Islam a Religion of Peace?' for The 92nd Street Y, New York with the academic and writer Tariq Ramadan. This one feels like a bit of a throwback to a post-9/11 & Iraq war world. New Atheism was still a cultural force with some punch but it had also received its own fair share of body blows since its earlier days as a plucky new contender. Regardless of how you feel about that particular genre, we suggest you don a fedora, pour yourself a stiff drink, and be prepared for a heady mixture of substantive points, moralizing rhetoric, and witty retorts from both of these seasoned debaters.Also covered in the episode Andrew Huberman and whether sad women's tears have unique properties, Jordan Hall teaches everyone how to play the guitar, James Lindsay discovers the Logos... and Chris tells us all about his office fridge adventures.LinksHitchens and Ramadan debate at 92nd Street Y New YorkHuberman's TikTok video about women's tears and his related tweetsJames Lindsay's Twitter thread on demons and the LogosReddit Thread with a link to Jordan Hall's Guitar tutorialDaniel Laken's free course on psychology methodology and statistical inference

We are back for an interview with the author and independent writer Matt Johnson discussing the New Atheist hero and legendary debater, Christopher Hitchens. The other Matt recently published a book called "How Hitchens Can Save the Left: Rediscovering Fearless Liberalism in an Age of Counter-Enlightenment" and kindly agreed to come on and waffle with us about Hitchens and where he fits in comparison to the modern gurus. We cover a range of topics including whether Hitchens would have been in the IDW, if he was an extremophile, how far did he rely on rhetoric over substance and to what extent different labels apply to him. Matt Johnson offers a surprisingly nuanced take and provides us with lots of interesting tidbits regarding Hitchens. This can also be listened to as Part 1 of our Hitchens coverage, as we have a full decoding of a debate of his coming shortly.And what if you are not into Hitchens? Well, there are still some goodies for you! In this episode, we also cover: Guru magnetism & depressing crossovers, Sam Harris' recent appearance with Maajid Nawaz, Scandinavian geopolitics, Chris' review of the Super Mario Bros Movie, and whether we are actually in the pocket of Big Harris! So join us one and all! And don't forget to subscribe to Sam Harris' meditation app using the code 'GurusPodSentMe'.LinksMatt Johnson (2023) How Hitchens Can Save the Left: Rediscovering Fearless Liberalism in an Age of Counter-EnlightenmentMatt Johnson's Article at the Bulwark: What Christopher Hitchens Can Teach Us About LiberalismMaajid Nawaz & Sam Harris Reunite for the First Time Since Covid to Debate the Politics of Covid-MandatesMatt Johnson's articles at Quillette primarily about coverage of the Ukraine conflict

Oprah Winfrey is someone who truly needs no introduction. She's a legend of daytime television, a warm and charismatic juggernaut who steam-rolled her way to the very apex of media success. Now, an extraordinarily wealthy woman, she's busy with philanthropy and helping others manifest their inner light so as to truly Be in this world.Certainly, in a category apart from IDW knuckleheads or bottom-feeding YouTube types, Oprah is nevertheless a self-help and spiritual guru in the truest sense of the word; both in the eyes of her audience and by her own lights. In the interview we cover, she talks frankly about her own philosophy of life and gives advice to others that they might emulate some portion of success. Inevitably not discussed are various controversies around her promotion of pseudoscience, endorsing self-help gurus like James Arthur Ray, anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCarthy and giving a massive leg-up to noted internet doctors, Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz. "The Secret" by Rhonda Byrne, which promotes the Law of Attraction, is not explicitly mentioned, but Chris detects hints of it vibrating throughout the conversation.So join Matt and Chris as they conclusively demonstrate why they remained the perpetual block-sucking kids at the nursery, while Oprah rode her self-actualised rocket past the first grade to become a billionaire media mogul.Also on this week's episode discover whether Oprah earns a place on Guru island, if the intro segments will be tightly edited, how Chris prepares for job interviews, and just how many of Matt's enemies are Nazis!LinksOprah Winfrey: The Secret of My Success. Stanford Graduate School of Business.Kurzgesagt's video on their funding and POV.PBS Space TimeDr Sam Gregson, the Bad Boy of Science

Apologies everyone, we've been compelled to break our 'golden rule' of interspersing decoding episodes with interview episodes. However, the opportunity to talk to the well-known psychologist, Professor Paul Bloom. There are so many reasons to talk to Paul: first, he's a walking, talking cornucopia of knowledge across so fields in psychology that fascinate Chris and Matt. He's also a prolific author, most recently of "Psych- The Story of the Human Mind", and previously with "The Sweet Spot" about pleasure and pain, and the controversial "Against Empathy". He's also a great educator, having created a bunch of open learning resources in introductory and moral psychology. In addition to the new book "Psych", which offers a layperson's introduction to psychology he is ALSO producing a new podcast with friend of the cast and no slouch at psychology himself, Very Bad Wizard/Psychologist, Dave Pizarro. OK, that's enough reasons. There are probably more reasons, but we have provided enough. And anyway, who says we have to justify our guests and our interview to decoding schedule. We are free agents! We have agency... right?In any case, you cannot complain too much as we felt bad and have thus included in the short intro segment a "mini" (40min!) decoding of the recent appearance of academic/political pundit, Matthew Goodwin, on Triggernometry. And it's a spicy one...Next up Oprah! Coming soon...LinksPaul Bloom & Dave Pizarro's Psych PodcastPaul Bloom's New Book: Psych- The Story of the Human MindPaul's New Ted Talk on The surprising psychology behind your urge to break the rulesTriggernometry- Matt Goodwin: We're in the Post-Populist EraNew Statesman- Going native: How Matthew Goodwin became part of the right-populist movement he once sought to explain.Eliezer Yudkowsky's Tweet about bombing the WIV

If you have managed to avoid the phenomenon of QAnon up until now, then congratulations! Your life is likely better for not knowing. Sadly many of us have been forced not only to learn about the 'enigmatic'(/idiotic) Q and his merry band of followers but also to witness the consequences of the movement during events like January 6th.Travis View (the pen name of Logan Strain) is part of the motley crew of the hugely popular QAnon Anonymous podcast that attempts to document the phenomenon of QAnon. From undercover investigations to creative writing, the QAnon Anonymous team (including previous guest Annie Kelly) have approached the topic with a creative and anthropological approach.We sit down with Travis and ask him to provide us with the 101 on QAnon before we delve into some of the more arcane topics, including cultish splinter groups, the psychology of QAnon adherents, just how much of a threat he thinks the movement poses, and how does he stay sane while looking at depressing craziness week in and week out.Travis is a wealth of information and a groovy guy to boot. The kind of person you would want to have your back in a Zombie apocalypse. So kick back and enjoy hearing about the crumbling of contemporary society.LinksTravis's Instagram account: Great nature photos!QAnon Anonymous PodcastWisdom Signalling & the Wisdom of Criticism w/ John Veraveke, Chris M, Chris Kavanagh, & Matt Browne

The question of the SARS-CoV-2 origin: whether it was a zoonotic spillover from a wet market, or an engineered virus that escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is seemingly a debate that will never go away. Most interestingly, while scientists with specific domain expertise seem to be building a consensus towards the former, public opinion appears to be trending towards the latter. This delta between expert and popular opinion has been helped along by the frothy discourse in mainstream and social media, with most figures that we cover in this podcast dead-set certain that it came from a lab. Most recently, Sam Harris hosted on his Making Sense podcast the molecular biologist Alina Chan and. science writer Matt Ridley, spokespersons for the lab leak case, and authors of "Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19". To a layperson, and certainly to Sam, they put forward a rather watertight case. Intrinsic to the arguments advanced were the ideas that (a) experts in the area were refusing to engage with and unable to answer their arguments, and (b) a strong implication that there is a conspiracy of silence among virologists not just in China but internationally, to suppress the lab leak hypothesis.So, as a case study in the public understanding of science, it seems like a pretty pickle indeed. To help unravel the pickle(?) in this somewhat special episode, we are joined by three virologists who are amply qualified to address the topic; both in terms of the evidence and whether they are involved in a conspiracy of silence.Kristian Andersen is a Professor in the Department of Immunology and Microbiology at Scripps Research. He focuses on the relationship between host and pathogen, using sequencing, fieldwork, experimentation, and computational biology methods. He has spearheaded large international collaborations investigating the emergence, spread and evolution of deadly pathogens, including SARS-CoV-2, Zika virus, Ebola virus, West Nile virus, and Lassa virus.Prof Michael Worobey, is the head of the department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Arizona. His work focuses on the genomes of viruses, using molecular and computational biology, to understand the origins, emergence and control of pandemics. Recently, his interdisciplinary work on SARS-CoV-2 has shed light on how and when the virus originated and ignited the COVID-19 pandemic in China and how SARS-CoV-2 emerged and took hold in North America and Europe.Prof Edward "Eddie" Holmes, is an NHMRC Leadership Fellow & Professor of Virology at the Faculty of Medicine and Health at Sydney University, a member of the Sydney Institute for Infectious Diseases, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Science and a Fellow of The Royal Society. He is known for his work on the evolution and emergence of infectious diseases, particularly the mechanisms by which RNA viruses jump species boundaries to emerge in humans and other animals. He has studied the emergence and spread of such pathogens as SARS-CoV-2, influenza virus, dengue virus, HIV, hepatitis C virus, myxoma virus, RHDV and Yersinia pestis.All three researchers have specialist expertise and decades of experience directly applicable to tracking viruses and their adaption to humans, and, fair to say, are fairly eminent in their fields (Eddie in particular!). Further, they are among the relatively small set of researchers collecting and analysing primary evidence on the origins of SARS-CoV-2, communicating their findings in top-ranked journals, including Nature and Science. In this episode, Chris and Matt put to this trio of Professors the claims raised by lab leak advocates to see what these (damn conspirators) experts have to say for themselves.LinksSam Harris Making Sense #311 - DID SARS-COV-2 ESCAPE FROM A LAB?Bad Boy of Science YouTube Channel: Is The COVID Lab Leak Hypothesis Dead? w Kristian Andersen, Mike Worobey & Philipp MarkolinGood article from Philipp Markolin on 'The manipulation playbook of anti-science actors'Stuart Ritchie's article for the i: "Stop blindly believing or dismissing the Covid lab-leak theory – focus on the evidence" (references discourse surfing!)Wall Street Journal: Lab Leak Most Likely Origin of Covid-19 Pandemic, Energy Department Now SaysOur previous episode discussing the Lab Leak and other Covid controversies with Stuart NeilRelevant Research Papers & LettersCalisher, C., et al. (2020). Statement in support of the scientists, public health professionals, and medical professionals of China combatting COVID-19. The Lancet, 395(10226), e42-e43.Andersen KG, Rambaut A, Lipkin WI, Holmes EC, Garry RF. The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2. Nat Med. 2020 Apr;26(4):450-452.Bloom, J. D., et al. (2021). Investigate the origins of COVID-19. Science, 372(6543), 694-694.Holmes, E. C., et al. (2021). The origins of SARS-CoV-2: A critical review. Cell, 184(19), 4848-4856.Worobey, M., et al. (2022). The Huanan Seafood Whole

Dave Rubin has always sought out a career in the spotlight, beginning with stand-up comedy and then becoming a pundit (of sorts) on shows like the Young Turks. From there he (in)famously came to present himself as one of those classical liberals forced to 'leave the left'. He was also one of the honorary members of the Intellectual Dark Web although it is fair to say he primarily served as a conduit rather than a primary contributor. So, where does he stand now? Is he the heterodox classical liberal and centrist he once claimed? Or is he a reactionary and conspiratorial hyper-partisan right-wing pundit? It's the second thing. It's obviously the second thing. Everyone knows.But could he be anything more than that? Does he fit the secular guru template beguiling us with pseudo-intellectual, polymathic and galaxy-brained takes? Or just a slightly more acceptable version of Alex Jones without the drinking problem?Well, in this episode we'll figure it out. To be honest, it's not very complicated. The riddle of Dave Rubin is not so much a deep rabbit hole as a minor depression in the ground. So... Enjoy?P.S. We also talk (probably for too long) about "discourse surfing" in relation to topics like the lab leak and why you shouldn't do it. Don't worry. There are bookmarks, so you can skip it if you want (though you shouldn't really, it's good).LinksCritical Profile of Dave Rubin by Ross Anderson at QuilletteGreta Thunberg Gets Caught by Rebel News & Her Response Is Bizarre | Direct Message | Rubin ReportDave Rubin | Club Random with Bill MaherFor 'Discourse Surfing' see Stuart Ritchie's article at inews. Stop blindly believing or dismissing the Covid lab-leak theory – focus on the evidenceThe Wall Street Journal article that reignited the Lab Leak conversationOur previous episode 'Calibrating the Gurometer'

Bill Maher is an American comedian, political commentator, and television host from the tail end of the baby-boomer generation. He's principally a centrist liberal in terms of his political leanings, being well known for his anti-religious and pro-animal rights positions, as well as a supporter of things like cannabis legalisation. On the other hand, he's something of a contrarian and styles himself as anti-political correctness and anti-woke, identifying as a disenchanted liberal, like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.Now, all of that is well and good, let a hundred flowers bloom! But... on the less-salubrious side, he's also a contrarian when it comes to his extreme scepticism of conventional medicine, and vaccines in particular. And as we'll see in the two interviews we cover, with Sam Harris ^ and Richard Dawkins, it never seems to take him very long before the conversation is steered back to vaccines. So, will Maher make the gurometer go 'DING'? Let's face it, probably not. But if not, why not? It is worth checking to tune up the old instrument. And it is indeed something to behold as a boozy, stoned Maher tries (and manifestly fails) to coax Richard Dawkins out of his prim and proper shell.Also features discussions of Chris' run-ins with the rationalists, a new 'Whinge of the Week' segment, and the rhetorical technique of 'pouncing'.LinksRichard Dawkins on Club Random with Bill MaherSam Harris on Club Random with Bill MaherAstral Codex Ten- Contra Kavanagh On FideismMedium Article by Chris - Am I a Fideist?Astral Codex Ten - Trying Again on FideismMaking Sense with Sam Harris - Did SARS-COV-2 escape from a lab?Konstantin Kisin - Reflections on Dealing With Bad Faith CriticismUpcoming discussion with John Vervaeke & Chris Mastropietro at The Stoa

In this episode, we take a bit of a detour from current trends and examine a talk by the philosopher Daniel Dennett on evolution. Dennett rose to public prominence as one of the so-called four horsemen of the New Athiest movement but he always seemed slightly out of place with that cohort. Dennett's is most certainly a guru in the sense that he offers big picture 'what does it all mean' lectures linking together consciousness, intelligence, the emergence of complexity and evolution. But is there some substance there? Or does his appeal hinge on on intuitively-satisfying cosmic woo offered by less reputable figures.On a positive note, he seemed to be more interested in academic and philosophical debates than the latest culture war outrage. As such he doesn't share that much with our usual targets... and that's ok! Sometimes it is good to look at figures who fall closer to the standard public intellectual or academic motif than that of the secular guru. At the very least it helps to calibrate our gurometer! So join us for a slightly indulgent episode on a figure that we both broadly enjoy despite the inevitable nit-picking. An extended introduction section will also reveal our first DTG conspiracy hypothesis, the mating habits of orcs and dragons, and what Nazi AIs have in common with Robocop. And stick around at the end to hear about the future of education from the Petersons!LinksDennett's talk on Information, Evolution, and Intelligent Design at the Royal InstituteBusiness Insider article on that historical figure AI chatbotMikhaila Peterson: Q&A to end the Year Episode. 174Thread from Lex's Subreddit removed by Moderators

Recently the Oxford Union (based in Oxford but distinct from the university) hosted a debate on "whether woke culture has gone too far". A very fresh question, and it's been good to see people finally discussing this important issue. Former guest, comedian, and host of the Triggernometry podcast Konstantin Kisin argued for the proposition, and his 10 minute speech has gone viral, garnering over 20 million views (and counting). Kisin has received lavish praise for his compelling talk from across the interwebs for what has been broadly described as a masterful demolition of woke culture, leading to broadcast television appearances with Piers Morgan and Tucker Carlson.Well, a video of the speech crossed our path on Twitter, and it seemed to us to be an interesting case-study on the effective use of rhetoric, so here is our decoding. As is our want, we are slightly more critical in our assessment than Piers Morgan Tucker Carlson, but we are able to identify points of concordance as well. Enjoy!LinksThe original speechKonstantin Kisin | This House Believes Woke Culture Has Gone Too Far - 7/8 | Oxford UnionCoverageKonstantin Kisin’s Important Message LIVE on Tucker CarlsonKonstantin Kisin and Piers Morgan Discuss The Problems With Woke CultureBackgroundGlobal Concern about Climate Change, Broad Support for Limiting Emissions

In this episode we are joined by the irrepressible "Coffeezilla" (aka Stephen Findeisen), a man who is, it's fair to say, kind of a big deal on YouTube. And rightly so! His channel focuses on exposing "scams, fraudsters and fake gurus" and he has received a great deal of praise for the detail, depth, and quality of the research that he goes into for each episode. Coffeezilla has been particularly active in digging into cryptocurrencies, NFTs, and other financial Ponzi and pump and dump schemes. Indeed, he has received praise from the MSM in relation to his coverage of the infamous Sam Bankman-Fried, and has most recently managed to arouse the ire of mega-influencer Logan Paul, after covering Paul's total NFT scam ‘problematic’ failed NFT offering.We share a lot of common interests with Coffeezilla and this interview as a result is pretty broad-ranging. To mention just a few, we discuss Elon Musk, the way unscrupulous individuals leverage capitalist financial systems, the death of expertise, modern online ecosystems, the differences and parallels between financial and secular gurus , and the psychological and technological tricks gurus use to seperate people from their hard-earned cash.Coffeezilla's hard work on financial scammer has made him extremely knowledgeable. He's also as sharp as a tack and really fun guy to chat with. So, we were super lucky to be able to snag him as a guest. We enjoyed ourselves thoroughly, and we hope you enjoy the interview too.Oh, and Chris and Matt talk about Lex Fridman and that damn booklist in the introduction, and introduce a new segment the 'Weekly Wisdom of Mikhaila' at the end.Enjoy!LinksCoffeezilla feed on YouTubeCoffeezilla's Investigating Logan Paul's CryptoZoo seriesLogan Paul's attempts to address and redressCoffeeZilla on The Lex Fridman PodcastMIchaela's Q&A to end 2022Lex being sad about people dunking on his reading listNassim Taleb on LexNathan J Robinson: The Guy Who Just Loves Everyone

So here we are rounding off 2022 with a Guru of the moment, Elon Musk.Trust us, we want to stop hearing about him as much as you do but we have long had him scheduled as the finale for the tech season. Unfortunately, the Decoding the Gurus curse (most of the people we cover quickly become worse and spiral into conspiracism) seems to have become more potent. Now we don't even have to cover a Guru just announce that we will and the spiral occurs. And with Elon what a spiral it has been. But we *try* not to dwell much on his recent antics and instead focus on decoding our chosen material. In this specific case, it is a recent wide-ranging interview conducted by a fellow billionaire and large Tesla investor, Ron Baron. This proved to be one of the most sycophantic interviews we have ever examined, which is a real achievement given the competition.Musk himself is an interesting figure. Softly spoken, prone to mumbling, he can even seem self-effacing, and yet he is also a prolific hype man, prone to hyperbole, and self-mythologizing. Is he the master engineer and polymath he claims? The ultimate conman? And how has he become the guru for so many gurus? Join us as we try to disentangle the Elon puzzle box and see if there is actually anything interesting inside.Oh and also Happy New Year! Remember to keep an eye out for those pesky Distributed Idea Suppression Complexes.LinksRon Baron Interview Nov 2022 with Elon Musk: Source for the DecodingThunderfoot Video: Why you should NEVER believe Elon Musk!Common Sense Skeptic: Debunking Elon Musk (Part 1 & Part 2)Guardian Article on Musk's comments on the Diver involved in the Thai Cave RescueFuturism Article on Elon Musk promising Full-Self-Driving Cars Every Year since 2014Rolling Stone: Elon Musk Keeps Taking Twitter Advice From Right-Wing TrollsArticle from buildd.co on Tesla's Marketing Strategy

Join us for this special festive episode in which we initiate the fledgling Gurologist (and occasional journalist and author) Helen Lewis into the deeper and more esoteric levels of Gurology. Helen may have produced an excellent new multi-part series on the New Gurus for the BBC but just how many nut or shark-based anecdotes can you fit into a 30-minute episode? And is the BBC really ready for truly hardcore sensemaking?In any case, we indulge our new padawan with an extended discussion about the new series (it's actually very, very good!) and what she has learned on her travels. Along the way we compare notes, discuss the ethics of covering narcissists and harmful gurus, and uncover Helen's personal role in creating one prominent modern guru.But that's not all! Befitting the season, Helen comes bearing a gift... or is it a test? Unveiling her inner Quizmaster persona she attempts to humble the masters with an End of Year Guru quiz. Can Matt & Chris survive? Who between them is the true Gurologist (& who conversely is winning at life)? Join us and find out!P.S. The Elon Decoding episode is on its way very soon!LinksThe New Gurus SeriesHelen's recent appearance on Embrace the VoidHelen's Atlantic Article on Ron DeSantis' electoral strategyRussell Brand's infamous interview with Jeremey PaxmanRussell Brand's interview with Ed MilibandLaurie Penny's piece on Milo & friends

Today we are joined by Jamie Wheal, who comprised a full one-third of the subjects covered on our prior "Sensemaking Cubed" episode also featuring Daniel Schmachtenberger and Jordan Hall. Jamie has kindly taken advantage of our standing offer of a right to reply to all podcast subjects and here is our conversation in its entirety. As well as being a sometime interlocutor with Daniel and Jordan, Jamie is an author of books such as Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, Navy SEALs and Maverick Scientists are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work and Recapture the Rapture: Rethinking God, Sex and Death In a World That's Lost Its Mind. He's the founder of the Flow Genome Project, an organisation that aspires to train ultimate human performance, and does leadership seminars and wilderness excursions with many famous organisations such as Deloitte, Red Bull, Google, Lululemon, Facebook, TD Ameritrade, Nike, and Goldman Sachs.So, the three of us get into it a bit about that sensemaking about sensemaking video, but pretty quickly move into the issue of making sense of things more broadly, as it's transpired with fraught issues such as COVID; both in the popular social media space, and within the 'blue church' of academia.From what we knew of Jamie, we expected to have a pleasant chat with him, and as you'll hear: it was a pleasant chat! Even if our worldview and understanding of things diverged a fair bit, there were a number of things we could agree on as well. A big thumbs-up to Jamie for taking our (relatively scathing) coverage of the infamous video with the best of grace and, in the best tradition of what the IDW purports to do, be willing to have a frank public chat with a couple of blokes who have been highly critical of some of the people and ideas he's (somewhat) aligned with.Our intros and outros are - as usual - quite indulgent, so be sure to take advantage of those bookmarks if you want to skip straight to the interview proper.Enjoy!LinksMike Duncan's Revolutions PodcastBeyond Synth Podcast (Chris is a guest on ep 342)Gizmodo fact-check on Elon's claims about AppleJamie Wheal @ Linkedin Feature on Jamie Wheal in the Texas MonthlyJamie Wheal's appearance on ConspiritualityCritical analysis of Rebel Wisdom & Jamie Wheal by Psymposia

We are back with another academic-themed interview with the evolutionary/cultural/cognitive anthropologist Manvir Singh. That's right two anthropologists from the same relatively obscure field on the same podcast but don't hold that against Manvir, we promise he's much more insightful than Chris!Indeed, Manvir joins us to share his expertise on Shamanism and to examine whether there are any significant parallels between Shamans and Gurus. Along the way, you will gain new esoteric knowledge into things such as the differences between prophets, gurus, and shamans; whether evolutionary anthropology is all bunk; and the importance of linguistic and kinetic performances for generating credibility and authority. Matt was absent during the interview so he could not keep Chris' tangents in check but he does participate in the ever-extending discussions in the intro and outro segments. Here you will discover the respective grievances that our hosts have been mongering, as well as how Matt deals with some critical feedback from disgruntled psychoanalysts!In short, there is something for everyone. So open your third eye and join us on an ecstatic spirit flight as we reveal the secret cosmic mysteries of the modern gurus (for those brave enough to listen).LinksManvir's (2018) BBS article on ShamanismManvir's article in Wired (2022) The ‘Shamanification’ of the Tech CEOFollow up Twitter thread on the evidence for fasting benefitsManvir's Aeon article (2022): The idea of primitive communism is as seductive as it is wrongManvir's WebsiteBen Shapiro: Politics, Kanye, Trump, Biden, Hitler, Extremism, and War | Lex Fridman Podcast #336Matthew Remski's thread on the DiAngelo Episodeand_furiouser's thread on the DiAngelo Episode

Racism is all around. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds white people together. And if you try to deny it, it only makes it stronger. That's Robin DiAngelo's thesis, anyway, and she calls this dark force (and the book that made her famous) White Fragility. You know you've got white fragility if you refuse to accept the truth of white fragility. Also, all white people have it. So that's pretty straightforward at least. How do you fight the curse of whiteness? Well, it's a lifelong journey of 'Doing the Work', but one thing's for sure: it starts with reading books like White Fragility and attending seminars well... like hers.DiAngelo's been out of the discourse recently, as far as we can tell, busy beavering away on new books like Nice Racism: How Progressive White People Perpetuate Racial Harm and dismantling white supremacy via corporate group therapy sessions. However, in our original show blurb, we promised to cover 'gurus from Jordan Peterson to Robin DiAngelo', so here we are. Now she's no longer this week's hot culture war topic that's getting people (...racists probably) all riled up, it's the perfect time to cross this particular Pokemon off our list. We listened to a lecture she gave in 2018, where she helpfully lays out the key aspects of her theory. There's so much in store for listeners this week. You'll be able to thrill to the anecdote of how DiAngelo herself was disgustingly racist to a colleague, be shocked as Chris once again references Northern Ireland's colourful history and tries to deflect his people's obvious guilt onto the English, be amazed as Matthew courageously confronts his settler-colonial privilege, and learn the real story of the first African American baseball player to cross the colour line (as told by DiAngelo).So join the intrepid duo as they embark on this neverending journey to interrogate their whiteness. And maybe - verrrry carefully - try to be just a little bit critical of DiAngelo's arguments without axiomatically proving themselves hopelessly racist. Listen in and judge for yourself!LinksRobin DiAngelo's 2018 lecture on White Fragility at Seattle Central LibraryLiam Bright's recent 'White Psychodrama' paperKanye 'Ye' West Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast #332Sam Harris: The Politics of Unreality: Ukraine and Nuclear Risk: A Conversation with Timothy Snyder (#301)

An interesting one today with an extended interview/discussion with Konstantin Kisin co-host of the Triggernometry YouTube channel and Podcast and author of An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West. Topics covered include potential biases in the mainstream and heterodox spheres, media coverage in the covid era, debate within the heterodox sphere, the dangers of focusing on interpersonal relationships, and whether the WEF is really using wokism to make everyone eat bugs and live in pods. It's fair to say that we do not see eye to eye on various issues but Konstantin puts in a spirited defence for his positions and there are various positions where a two-person consensus is achieved. Matt was physically present but he preferred to occupy the spiritual position of The Third for this conversation, given Chris' greater familiarity with Konstantin's output.Prior to the interview, we have an extended, somewhat grievance-heavy, opening segment in which we discuss 1) the recent damages awarded in the 2nd Sandyhook court case against Alex Jones, 2) Russian apologetics and the heterodox sphere, and 3) Institutional Distrust and Conspiracy Spirals. Dare we say this is a thematically consistent episode? Maybe... in any case, there should be plenty for people to agree or disagree with, which is partly why our podcast exists.So join us in this voyage into institutional and heterodox biases and slowly come to the dreaded conclusion that philosophers might be right about something... epistemics might actually matter.LinksBloomberg article on Alex Jone's almost $1 Billion damagesJRE: #1848 - Francis Foster & Konstantin KisinTriggernometry episode with Sam Harris on Trump, Religion, and Wokeness (Featuring Epoch Times ad read)Triggernometry episode with Harry Miller on excessive policingKonstantin's appearance on the Dark Horse PodcastNew Republic article on the Heterodox figures touring for Orban's governmentInvestigative Atlantic Article on the Epoch TimesTwitter Thread by Konstantin on a recent speech by PutinTwitter Thread by Konstantin outlining why he thinks many have grown to distrut the mediaA Special Place in Hell: The Adventures of Baron Munchausen By Proxy

In this bitesize decoding, a conservative columnist, a religious icon carver, and a tortured ex-psychologist walk into a Daily Wire studio and try to hash out some solution of the meta-meaning-crisis. In an astounding twist it turns out it involves embracing traditional Christianity. Who could have guessed?Join us on Jordan’s religious powered rocket as we consider the esoteric mystery of tableware, how fiction is probably true, and try to uncover what’s the deal with atheist materialists anyway?In a nutshell, it's the same old drum that's being beaten: it only seems like science does better than religion at explaining things, because religion trumps science because God does causality in mysterious non-material ways. Maybe ways that have something to do with symbols and meaning or whatever. Ho hum - this is why it's a mini-decoding and not a full episode. It's more than OK to skip this one if you feel you've already got a handle on Jordan and Pageau's jam. But honestly, it's maybe all worth it to hear Pageau's explain 'vertical causation'. Try to follow the argument there, we dare you.Along the way Matt and Chris will also teach us valuable lessons like how to deal with road rage bullies or aggressive bull sharks and how if you really want to be a Christian it’s ok to go to mass.LinksDouglas Murray and Jonathan Pageau | #290

Fellow decoders: a few weeks ago Chris and Matt were invited to virtually attend a lecture at Macquarie University that promised to be of interest for the podcast. And that lecture was presented by the philosophy professor Neil Levy on the intriguing topic of 'Intellectual Virtue Signalling'. That is the status-seeking advertising of what is commonly perceived as intellectual virtues. We found Neil's thesis extremely compelling, with clear applications to a lot of the stuff we observe week on and week out on DTG. So, naturally, we swallowed our pride and our eternal disdain for philosophy and begged Neil to grace our humble show with his presence. Neil kindly agreed and we proceeded to have an enjoyable conversation with our patented meandering waffle juxtaposed against Neil's careful philosophizing.Before the interview, we also spend a little bit of time spelling out our policy on being abusive to the gurus. Here it is in summary: Don't do it! Robust criticism, ok. Personal abuse/doxing, is not ok. Got it? Good!Prof. Levy holds a dual position at the Faculty of Philosophy at Oxford University. He publishes not only in practical ethics and moral philosophy but also across diverse topics in cognition, addiction, and pathology. Neil has also written a number of books, most recently:Bad Beliefs: Why they happen to good people (2021)Consciousness and Moral Responsibility (2014)'Bad Beliefs' is directly related to the podcast, and is available freely online!We heartily recommend this interview, and might even go so far as to say Neil has helpfully provided us with a bit of conceptual framework that undergirds some high-level stuff that's happening within and across the quantum circuits of the Gurometer. Thanks for that Neil!

It's finally here! In what has to be our most meta episode to date, Matt and Chris tackle the meta-philosophy / meta-spirituality / meta-science that is Sensemaking. You might say sensemaking is sense to the power of 2. But what is sensemaking, really? Well, that's a tricky question because as Jordan Hall says; no one can simply be told what sensemaking is. It is the escape hatch out of The Matrix, it is the finger pointing at the moon, it is a possibility space in an nth dimensional cube.... whatever the hell it is, some people are pretty sure it's the solution to all of humanity's problems. Exciting!So, since defining sensemaking is like trying to staple a jellyfish to a wall, it is very understandable that Jordan Hall, Jamie Wheal, and Daniel Schmachtenberger would take 2 hours and 40 minutes out of their busy schedule, and have a meta-conversation about this meta-topic, where they try to decipher exactly what this strange beast is and do some sensemaking about sensemaking. And it's even MORE understandable that Chris Kavanagh and Matthew Browne would take even longer out of their own schedules to try to analyse THAT discourse: sensemaking about sensemaking about sensemaking. Shifting to power notation for brevity, this episode is sensemaking cubed, which equals sense to the power of 4. How did we go? Well, sensemaking is like an elephant and everybody's got a piece of it. Chris is tweaking the tail, Matt's busy fondling the trunk, Daniel's inspecting the ears, and Jordan Hall is riding that bad boy, trampling poor Jamie Wheal and scaring all the monkeys. But we get there, we get there... So join us as we operate in 75 simultaneous paradigms, make not just sense but anti-nonsense, and discover what the difference really is between a puzzle and a photograph.LinksRebel Wisdom: Making Sense of Sensemaking: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheal, Jordan HallAlexandros Marinos & Eric's Twitter BrouhahaJonathan Pageau's angry thread on the 'arrogant secularists' at DTG and how little we know about demonologyMatt's epic tweet-a-long thread

Today Chris and Matt are visited by Helen Lewis, a journalist, editor, and writer with what could very fairly be described as a rather distinguished career in those fields. Helen has previously worked at the New Statesman and is currently with The Atlantic. She has also served as a Women in the Humanities Honorary Writing Fellow at Oxford University and also on the steering committee for the Reuters Institute for Journalism at Oxford University. Her books include Difficult Women: A History of Feminism in 11 Fights. Helen's work covers a broad array of topics including politics, feminist issues, and contemporary/online culture. She is also known for a particular long-form interview which became a 'viral moment' when she sat down for a challenging discussion with one, Jordan B. Peterson.Most recently Helen has produced "The Church of Social Justice" for BBC4, which asks whether political movements might be taking the place of traditional religions in Britain. A question which never generates any controversy whatsoever. She is also working on an upcoming project that looks at internet gurus and the ecosystems they spawn. So, we were glad to take the opportunity to catch up and talk about the intersections with our rather idiosyncratic collection of interests.Join us as we try to decipher whether everything is a religion, if social justice requires a pope, and how exactly can we resolve ALL of those thorny culture war debates. We might not ultimately reach any satisfying answers but Helen does offer her one rule for life at the end of the interview!Also featured on this episode: our most defensive response to a review to date, and a segment on the dangers of JAQing off!LinksThe Church of Social Justice (BBC4)How Social Justice became a New Religion (The Atlantic)Helen's Book: Difficult Women- A History of Feminism in 11 FightsHelen's interview with Jordan Peterson for British CQJoe Rogan's Recent Vote Republican ClipChris' appearance on Embrace The Void discussing definitions of religion

A special crossover episode (long anticipated- at least by us) with one-half of the Knowledge Fight podcast. Specifically, we have Dan Friesen on to enlighten us about all things Alex Jones, the recent trial with the Sandy Hook parents, and to compare notes regarding gurus and conspiracy theorists. Not to mention to give Chris the chance to demonstrate his inner fanboy!Dan is a guy with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Alex Jones and some very astute insights into conspiracy psychology. In fact, Matt and Chris think he might be most accurately considered as something of a rogue anthropologist doing deep ethnographic observation of the InfoWars ecosystem. Dan, meanwhile, maintains he's just a guy! Either way, Dan and the Knowledge Fight podcast are definitely our kind of bag. We hope you too enjoy the conversation and there is plenty of Knowledge Fight episodes (700+) if this leaves you wanting more.Also, in this episode, we discuss Sam Harris' recent online travails, Jordan Peterson's appearance on Lex, and at the end of the episode, Matt finally learns what the podcast is really about! LinksKnowledge Fight podcastJordan's live-tweeting of the trialAlex Jone's trial highlightKnowledge Fight's post-trial review episode (712) with the Sandy Hook parents' trial lawyersArticle on Knowledge Fight in the New York TimesDan & Jordan on CNNArticle on that Paul Joseph Watson audio recordingJordan Peterson: Life, Death, Power, Fame, and Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #313Sam Harris' appearance on Triggernometry

Ahead of the forthcoming sense-making full course decoding of Jordan Hall, Daniel Schmactenberger, and Jamie Wheal (see here!), we offer a bite-sized morsel of sense-making to whet your episode. Here Matt and Chris engage in a 'short' session of gurunalysis, or guruology (if you prefer the original Latin). The subject of the gurunalysis is a conversation between the cognitive scientist & philosopher, John Vervaeke and the amateur theologian/icon carver, Jonathan Pageau. Specifically, we join these two as they apply sensemaking to delve deep into the spine-chilling world of demonology. Are demons real creatures, patterns of thought that resonant in collective cognition, or maybe both? And what about daemons, egregores, banshees, how do they fit in?Join us for this special mini decoding and find out!LinksRebel Wisdom: Demons & the Machine, John Vervaeke & Jonathan PageauRebel Wisdom: Making Sense of Sensemaking: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheal, Jordan Hall

This episode is a little bit of this and a little bit of that.The main portion of the episode features an interview with returning guest, Elgen Strait, host of the Falling Out podcast. Previously we've had Elgen on to talk about his life growing up as a second-generation member of Reverend Moon's Unification Church (the Moonies) and also to help us decode some historical lectures of Moon. This time he is back to talk about the recent assassination of the former Japanese prime minister, Shinzo Abe, and the role that the Unification church played in that event. Heavy stuff but it felt like an important topic to discuss given Elgen's expertise, Chris' location, and the theme of the podcast.But that's not all!Also in this episode, you get a slightly out-of-date update on Alex Jone's trial (which will be good preparation for a forthcoming interview with Knowledge Fight's Dan Friesen) and a mini-decoding of Lex Fridman and Joe Rogan's recent conversation. Consider this a coda to the techno monk episode, that perhaps gives a glimpse into the more sinister side of that somewhat endearing naivety. The next decoding episode we are back with the sensemakers and it's one you won't want to miss! LinksFalling Out PodcastElgen's YouTube video on the Unification Church & human traffickingElgen's YouTube video discussing the motivations of Testuya YamagamiJoe Rogan: Comedy, Controversy, Aliens, UFOs, Putin, CIA, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #300Our previous episode interviewing Elgen on DTGOur decoding episode with Elgen looking at Reverend Moon's speechesAlex Jone's trial highlightKnowledge Fight's post-trial review episode (712) with the parents' trial lawyers

As per Section 7, paragraph 3, item 2 in the Gurometer Constitution and User Manual states, "All covered gurus shall have a Right to Reply" and Robert Wright has taken us up on this invitation!Now, this provision is generally intended to allow the poor dears we cover a rejoinder to all the insults, smears, and canards we routinely employ in our 'take-downs'. But our coverage of Bob was almost entirely positive. As Bob says in this episode, "You liked me, you really liked me!". So, this was actually more of an excuse to catch up and tie off a few bows. Bob clarifies a few points on the more speculative frontiers of his worldview, and exactly what he means when he talks about potential teleologies in evolution.But the warm fuzzies and mutual back-patting in this interview quickly devolve into yet another bitter intra-podcast internecine feud about consciousness and whether it's 'spooky' or not. Matt accuses Chris of being a p-zombie, which he's done before, but since it's an ad-hominem par excellence, we can all agree it deserves more than one shake of the sauce bottle. Bob does his best to walk (Chris) Matt back from the precipice of madness but to no avail. Although we might possibly have failed, once again, to solve the ultimate mystery of the human condition, at least a good waffley time was had by all.In the original episode, we made only passing reference to our disagreements with Bob over international relations, and Syria in particular. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has happened in the interim, and this has been a big focus of Bob's output since then. So, we have at-it a bit on that, on the benefits and limits of deploying cognitive empathy, and we touch on Grayzone and Bellingcat and who's dis-informing whom.It's no secret we earnestly disagree with Bob on geopolitics. But it's most definitely one of those topics where decent people can disagree. Since he's a frood who Really Knows Where His Towel is, we always appreciate the chance to talk to him. And who knows, one day Matt and Chris might even be wrong about something!? If so, I'm sure the subreddit will let us know.Enjoy!LinksThe original DTG decoding episode on Robert WrightBob's interview with us on his channelOur interview with Bob on DTGThe Monocle 24 piece on the 'evolution' of PutinBellingcat's articles on the Douma chemical weapons issueBob's Non-Zero Substack Your Gurometer Ratings!If you want to play along you can add your own scores for Jordan or any of our previous gurus here:Rate the Gurus websiteAnd if you want to check the collected results:Gurometer Results

Matt and Chris are back in the headspace of the Alchemical Lemon, Jordan Peterson, with what was supposed to be a shorter format decoding episode. You can judge for yourself how well that worked out!Nevertheless, this is still a 'recoding' episode of a previously decoded guru. For those interested, Jordan was covered way back in Episode 3 and jointly with Bret Weinstein in Episode 18. It seemed about time to dip back into the ineffable well of the undisputed master of metaphors given that he seems to have revived his old Agenda Insight persona (minus the Fedora).This time we find Jordan in a foul mood delivering some stern advice to the Christian Churches on how to attract and recruit young men. He's been on a bit of a roll recently (since joining the Daily Wire) and thus far has delivered unsolicited 'messages' to Christians, Muslims, and CEOs. The mind boggles at how much advice he will have provided and to how many groups before the year is out!So join the decoders for a (theoretically) condensed decoding of a paradigmatic modern guru on the rampage. Think we are kidding? Think again sunshine. Listen... NOW! Do it, before it is too late.LinksPeterson's Message to Christian ChurchesOur original episodes on Peterson: Episode 3 & Episode 18Take down of Peterson's apologetic video on the war in Ukraine by Ukrainian Toronto TelevisionAn ex-fan's perspective on Jordan's trajectory from Rebel WisdomLex Fridman with Tim Kennedy in Ukraine (Instagram)Glenn Greenwald promoting Alex's War' DocumentaryYour Gurometer Ratings!If you want to play along you can add your own scores for Jordan or any of our previous gurus here:Rate the Gurus websiteAnd if you want to check the collected results:Gurometer Results

What's this? Another episode?Well, sort of...Providing both a tantalising peak behind the Patreon curtain and an apology for the delayed release, we decided to release this week's Gurometer episode to everyone.Witness the science (/art) of Gurometry in action, as we fire up the Gurometer(TM) to calculate the precise Guru-nature of a techno monk and a perturbed social scientist.If you want to play along you can add your own scores for Lex, Haidt, or any of our previous gurus here:Rate the Gurus websiteAnd if you want to check the collected results:Gurometer Results

First, we apologise sincerely for the delayed-release. Matt and Chris have been busy beavers splicing together this decoding which proved particular gruelling for all sorts of uninteresting (but on-theme) technical reasons. But finally, the wait is over and the long-anticipated episode on AI-aficionado and popular podcast host, Lex Fridman, is here. Although as the title indicates this accidentally turned into a joint decoding episode of his guest, the 'heterodox' social psychologist, Jonathan Haidt. Lex is an interesting character and as such, for the decoding, two rather different pieces of content were selected: 1) a day-in-the-life video dairy and 2) one of his characteristic long-form interviews (with Haidt discussing social media). The format of a day-in-the-life video is perhaps inescapably cringey but it did give some unique insight into Lex's techno-monk lifestyle and his ongoing fascination/discovery of just how bad the Nazis & Hitler were. His interview with Haidt on the other hand was more substantial and covers a lot of tech-related issues that are genuinely complex and subject to an ongoing debate.Jonathan Haidt is a famous and well-regarded academic but also something of a controversial figure online in part because of his involvement in the dreaded 'culture wars'. In particular, Haidt co-wrote the influential book 'The Codding of the American Mind', founded 'Heterodox Academy', and is a vocal critic of 'wokism' and certain aspects of social media. We take a look at his arguments and try to discern whether he is a nuanced social scientist offering prescient warnings or a boomer shaking his fist at the kids these days? Join us and find out!LinksA Day in My Life - Lex FridmanJonathan Haidt: The Case Against Social Media | Lex Fridman Podcast #291Two Psychologists, Four Beers: Episode 89: What's Wrong with Social Media?Why the Past 10 Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid - The AtlanticOrben & Przybylski (2019): The association between adolescent well-being and digital technology useResponse from Twenge, Haidt, Joiner, & Campbell (2020)Response to the Response by Orben & Przybylski (2020)Haidt, J., & Bentov, Y. (ongoing). Free play and mental health: A collaborative review. Google Doc.Chris' Tweet review of The Coddling of the American Mind

In a way, we're all managing our personal brand in the infosphere aren't we? But Nathan Allebach, in a far more tangible way, really does manage brands - not just his own, but also for companies. And in managing the Steak-Umm brand on twitter, he drew attention by being one of the first to adopt a personal, authentic, and informative style - covering topics far beyond the world of frozen processed steak. Far from providing the typical zero-calorie bland corporate platitudes, Nathan quickly drew attention by delivering substantial threads on weighty topics like conspiracism and online disinformation. He played a delicate game of being edgy without being snarky or combative, providing informative and positive intellectual fare, nourishing both the hearts and minds of twitter users everywhere. As a hardened and savvy longtime twitter user, he's got a good understanding of the weirdness of Being Online, and the various ways to do so.So, we were glad to have a chance to meat Nathan (virtually of course, not in the flesh), to get his insights on navigating the online world, on what it means to See and Be Seen there, and his personal approach to Doing It Right. He didn't share any Convenient Meat Recipes For Busy Professionals though, weirdly enough... Maybe we'll have to get him back for that.LinksBrand Twitter Grows Up: Nathan's Article at The VultureSteak Umm's Mega thread on TwitterChris' Tweet threads about Pageau: here and hereJonathan Pageau: Why Human's SacrificeRichard Dawkins & Jordan Peterson's discussion that features the DNA segmentChris' Article on Ritual & Religion at AeonChris' co-authored article on Trump's inauguration as a ritual eventGurometerWant to help us rate the Gurus? You can enter your own scores for any Guru here!

The season of tech is upon us! Hold on to your hats and press those non-fungible tokens tightly to your bosom, because we are getting into the thick of it.Matt and Chris kick things off with an exploration of tech pioneer Jaron Lanier. Sometimes referred to as the father of virtual reality, Jaron is a promising candidate for gurudom given his foreboding warnings of a bleak algorithmic future and a penchant for opening tech lectures barefoot with impromptu performances of exotic instruments. In short, he's a groovy guy and Matt digs that! Chris, being the sour lemon that he is, takes a little while to adjust to Jaron's particular style.Some Weinsteinian warning signs might be flashing but there really are eccentric and very clever people in the world... and Lanier might just be one of them? He certainly has a track record of critically commenting on techno-optimism and social media platforms for at least two decades. But some of his pronouncements seem a tad OTT and some recommendations a little hand-wavy...So how do the decoders square this particular dread-locked circle? Well, you're going to have to listen all the way to the end to find out. So, get yourself comfortable. Drink some coffee and pop some no-doze, and strap yourself in.Smash the Duck!LinksWas the Internet a Horrible Mistake? Jaron Lanier on Honestly with Bari WeissThat VR boxing game Chris' mentionedPeterson being a smug judge on Twitter

Ahead of the Jaron Lanier episode a special preview episode of our ongoing Decoding Academia series.This week Matt and Chris take a look at a classic comparative study of social learning processes in chimpanzees and infants (Horner & Whiten, 2005). They discover the correct method to break into a puzzle box, that chimpanzees are sometimes more logical than people, and that popular idioms do not always house universal truths.For anyone interested in reading the paper it is available for free here.We will be back later in the week with our normal decoding episode.

It's been a while but don't worry the DtG elves have been hard at work and a veritable bounty of content is on its way. The long-promised Jaron Lanier decoding is on its way next week, but this week the cross-overs continue as we are joined by Mickey Inzlicht, esteemed Psychologist, Research Excellence Faculty Scholar at the University of Toronto, and long term (retired) co-host of the Two Psychologists, Four Beers podcast.Mickey has now hung up his podcasting headphones but like an old prizefighter, we were able to lure him back into the limelight one last time with promises of unlimited booze and global fame. To keep Mickey from realising we could provide neither, we then subjected him to an unrelenting barrage of questions for almost two hours. Under our relentless questioning, Mickey gave up the goods on some precious long-buried information, including what it's like to work with Jordan Peterson, the details on his campaign to destroy introspection, and what he really thinks of the Gurus. We also manage to discuss some serious stuff like the state of contemporary psychology, the impact of the replication crisis, whether preregistration is always beneficial (it is, don't listen to Matt!), and to resolve the fundamental nature of the Self!Mickey is a wise egg, a funny guy, and a veteran podcaster and we really enjoyed this conversation so we hope you will too! Stick around at the end for some Tamler themed feedback and more pronunciation errors than you can shake a stick at.Back next week with Jaron Lanier!LinksMickey's HomepageTwo Psychologists Four Beers 27: Against MindfulnessBernard Schiff's Article on Jordan Peterson for the Toronto Star: I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter. Now I think he’s dangerous.Inzlicht, M., & Friese, M. (2019). The past, present, and future of ego depletion. Social Psychology.Friese, M., Loschelder, D. D., Gieseler, K., Frankenbach, J., & Inzlicht, M. (2019). Is ego depletion real? An analysis of arguments. Personality and Social Psychology Review, 23(2), 107-131.Guardian article about that Facebook StudyHoehl, S., Keupp, S., Schleihauf, H., McGuigan, N., Buttelmann, D., & Whiten, A. (2019). ‘Over-imitation’: A review and appraisal of a decade of research. Developmental Review, 51, 90-108.

In the most ambitious crossover since the Fraggles met the Muppets, this week we have a special joint episode with moral psychologist David Pizzaro and famed philosopher and ghost detective, Tamler Sommers. Also known as the hosts of a small academic podcast Very Bad Wizards.Stealing the format of their show we have a culture war heavy intro section featuring discussion of Joe Rogan censorship, covid debates, Japanese maid cafes, and the great ghost debate of 2022. Following that we move on to an in-depth round-table discussion of the 2012 Paul Thomas Anderson movie 'The Master'. The movie explores the relationship between a wastrel and a cult leader and features performances by Joacquin Phoenix, Philip Seymour Hoffman, and Amy Adams. There is no denying it's an acting masterclass (and thematically relevant for the show!) but is it any good?Join us and help us as we attempt to decode with the wizards.LinksVery Bad Wizards podcastEmbrace the Void 237: Defining "religion" with Chris Kavanagh'Here We Are Podcast' Ep. 381 Internet Gurus w/ Dr. Chris KavanaghThe Stoa: Truth, Trust, and Culture War w/ Zubin Damania, Christopher Kavanagh, Ben Burgis, and David Fuller

This week's episode we have an extended interview with an independent decoder, the YouTube documentary maker, Timbah-on-Toast. A kindred spirit in many respects Timbah is perhaps the ultimate form of the 'I can't come to bed, someone is wrong on the internet' meme. He makes detailed videos analysing the content of a variety of internet pundits, especially those who are posing as something they are not.If you have not experienced one of Timbah's documentaries you should go do so now. He has an excellent 3-part series on Dave Rubin's interview techniques and another 4-part series breaking down the career of the propagandist founder of the Veritas Project, James O'Keefe.His most recent series, however, is looking at self-proclaimed milquetoast centrist fence-sitter, the eternal beanie wearing Tim Pool. We compare notes, delve into what makes Timbah motivated to do what he does, and discuss his Scooby Doo narrative arc.So join us as Chris meets a kindred consumer of irritating content and Matt continues to ponder if it's all just cloud castles and narcissism.Also featuring... a Weinstein World update, the standard banter quotient, and an abusive Patreon shoutout segment.LinksJordan Peterson's 'Smug Judge' TweetBret Weinstein & Jonathan Pageau: Ancient Wisdom, Modern WorldTimbah's Series on Dave Rubin: Battle of IdeasTimbah's Series on James O'Keefe: 10 Years of TruthTim Pool: Chaotic News AnalystTim Pool: Fence Sitter

This week we return one more time to the disturbing world of Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, also known as the 'Moonies', this time with a historical decoding episode.We are joined again this week by Elgen Strait, from Falling Out podcast, who helps us with a historical decoding of Reverend Moon's speeches and Moonie promotional material.Due to the subject matter we cannot promise a barrel of laughs but we hope this episode offers some useful insights into the approach of a genuine cult leader. It's also a useful comparison episode to see where there are parallels with the modern secular gurus we usually examine and where they diverge.So join us as we return to an imagined glory era of America in the 1950s (or was it 70s) when Absolute Sex & a God centred ideology was all anyone needed for a perfect society... at least according to Moon. LinksFalling Out PodcastSun Myung Moon: God Bless America Festival (1976) Rare Complete Bicentennial Documentary & We will Stand. Rev. Sun Myung Moon QAnon Anonymous 160: The Moonies Conquer DC feat Elgen StraitArticle on Trump's appearance at Unification Church linked eventJordan Peterson speaking with Andy Ngo about Antifa

This episode is the first of two linked episodes in which we delve into the disturbing world of Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church also known as the 'Moonies'.Here in an interview episode we introduce Elgen Strait, host of the Falling Out Podcast which is "a podcast about leaving the Moonies and other cults, as told by the kids who grew up within them." The topic matter is serious and Elgen deftly introduces us to the manipulative cult dynamics he experienced first hand, as well as offering some broader information about how the Moonies craft their public image and raise funds.However, Elgen is a man after our own hearts and his dark sense of humour means that he can also enjoy a laugh at Moon's expense & enlighten us about Absolute Sex(!), a term that might mean something slightly different than you imagine.Our next episode will be guest co-hosted by Elgen as we take an excursion from the contemporary secular gurus and attempt to decode some historical recordings from a bonafide religious cult leader.This episode hopefully provides the foundations to better understand that decoding and we hope you 'enjoy' the discussion with Elgen as much as we did, despite the subject matter!LinksFalling Out PodcastSun Myung Moon: God Bless America Festival (1976) Rare Complete Bicentennial Documentary & We will Stand. Rev. Sun Myung Moon(content for the decoding episode)QAnon Anonymous 160: The Moonies Conquer DC feat Elgen StraitArticle on Trump's appearance at Unification Church linked eventPodcast RecommendationsWhen Diplomacy FailsMonocle 24: Foreign DeskWar on the Rocks

Another interview episode - we've had a flurry recently but don't worry, we'll be returning to a good ol' fashioned decoding episode very soon. This week we just couldn't resist the opportunity to have a chinwag with our podcasting compadre Julian Walker, an eloquent writer on evidence-based & conspiracy matters and co-host of the Conspirituality podcast. Julian's a yoga instructor and (maybe even) a spiritual kinda guy, but has long opposed the conspiratorial, anti-science, and exploitative guru side of the yoga & 'health & wellness' communities. In short, he's a science-minded guy moving in spiritual and yoga circles, who is now directly involved in countering the endless proliferation of pseudoscientific & conspiratorial nonsense. So, Matt and Chris take this opportunity to pick Julian's brain about what's been going on over on the crunchy side of the aisle, how it relates (and even overlaps) with the secular gurus, and the cultural moment we're in more generally. Due to the backlog caused by lazy elves in the DTG editing bay, some of the references to the trucker convoy and whatnot are a bit outdated, nor will you hear any mention of Ukraine. But don't mind that! Julian's got a lot of insight to offer and we hope you enjoy listening to him as much as we did!LinksConspirituality 90: The Convoy is an Occupation (w/ Elizabeth Simons). More detailed analysis of the Trucker ConvoyConspirituality 95: Aleksandr Dugin: Kali Yuga Chess. A recent episode by Julian doing a deep dive on Putin's alleged guru.

Hot on the heels of our Joe Rogan Trilogy, the big red phone at Decoder HQ rang with an intriguing proposal. Well, it was more of a DM, and it said,"Hi, love your show, would love to come on talk about Joe. Josh Szeps"."Josh Szeps?" we thought. "Who's that?" 5 mins of internet research later we found out it was none other than the voice of Olly the Kookaburra at the 2000 Sydney games! Well, we have to have him on, we thought. And as a bonus, he's also been on the Joe Rogan Experience where he famously gave him some real talk about COVID, vaccines, and the relative threat of myocarditis. In so doing Josh become, for a while at least, something of a reluctant hero to Joe Rogan cancel mobs everywhere."Book him!" intoned Matt, decisively."Right you are sir!" chirped Chris, obsequiously.Recollections of the specific events differ, but essentially just like that, podcast interview history was made.Josh Szepps has been an ABC journalist, panelist, TV and radio host, raconteur, and general opinionated and interviewer in Australia for donkey's years. He also has his own podcast, (Impossible) sorry Uncomfortable Conversations, which some say is pretty, pretty OK. Matt's been listening to him for years on the radio, so he tried not to be star-struck. While Josh managed (some would say too easily) to conceal his awe of Matt's towering intellect and impressive academic achievements. Chris meanwhile, knowing nothing of Australian culture and etiquette waffled on with his usual wild abandon.The conversation does include chat about the shiny-headed, supplement-infused, muscle master himself, but (fortunately) soon turns to broader discussion of disinformation, censorship, responsible heterodoxy, the general health of the info-sphere, and many, many more topics crucial to Saving our Civilisation! We argue constructively debate many topics including the impact of deplatforming and whether there is a need for greater editorial oversight (or if we are taking the first step to the Gulags). We don't see eye to eye on everything, but Josh is a super cool guy so enjoy some civility porn as we engage in the kind of debate that would make even the IDW superstars proud.Check it out!LinksUncomfortable Conversation with Josh Szeps'The Facts about Myocarditis' On Afternoons with Josh SzepsJosh on TwitterThe CDC requirements for certifying deaths as due to Covid The Joe Rogan Experience #1762 - Josh Szeps on SpotifyThe Fifth Column: 348 w/ Matt Taibbi "Richard Perle in New Jersey, Putin in Hell, Ukraine in Crisis"Clip from James Lindsay on Dr. PhilThis Week's SponsorCheck out the sponsor of this week's episode, Ground News, and get the app at ground.news/gurus.

This is an important episode. 2022 you needs to realise what 2020 you could not and what 2030 you is ready to tell you. Confused? You will be.On this episode we tackle two gurus that we have treated separately: James Lindsay of New Discourses (episode 2) and Michael O'Fallon of Sovereign Nations (episode 13). O'Fallon hasn't changed much from our episode analysing him, aside from starting a conspiracy laden daily news show. But James... well... judge for yourself.On this episode you will learn many amazing facts, including how feminist glaciology is at the core of the Great Reset, that the NFL is now the Critical Race Football league, and how what 'it' is really all about is making people into pets who are driven by AI cars and eat bugs.For this excursion, Chris and Matt are joined for the second time by Aaron Rabinowtiz, host of Embrace the Void (@ETVPod) and Philosophers in Space podcasts, PhD student, and lecturer at Rutgers University. This means we have now had two back to back episodes with philosophers... and we really can't apologise enough.LinksBen Garrison's cartoon featuring Scott AdamsSovereign Nations' Public Occurrences | Episode 7 | Woke NFLSovereign Nations' Public Occurrences | Episode 10 | Obedience TrainingClimate Justice | James Lindsay & Michael O'Fallon | Changing Tides Ep. 1A Critical Reset | James Lindsay & Michael O'Fallon | Changing Tides Ep. 2New Discourses | Groomer Schools 2: Queer Futurity and the Sexual Abuse of Your ChildrenNew Discourses | Groomer Schools 3: The Creation of an American Red GuardThat Immune book by Philipp Dettmer from Gurzgesagt

Today we have a little mid-week treat, ahead of our next decoding episode, a discussion with the philosopher and Leverhulme Prize Winning Twitter sensation, Liam Kofi Bright.Liam is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Philosophy, Logic, and Scientific Method at a little known degree-mill called the London School of Economics. On this episode we have a wide ranging discussion revolving around the state of the Orthodoxy in modern scientific research, the viability of proposed reforms, and finally Liam decodes whether we are mindless defenders of the status quo or the true heirs of the Logical Positivists tradition. Along the way we also learn the three rules to master Twitter, what Open Science is all about, whether philosophers of science are good or bad, and what exactly 26+6 equals.LinksChris' appearance on The Stoa discussing the GurometerLiam Bright's websiteLiam's (2016) paper 'On Fraud'Liam's (2021) paper 'Why do Scientists Lie'Remco Hessen & Liam's (2021) paper 'Is peer review a good idea'Liam on TwitterThis Week's SponsorCheck out the sponsor of this week's episode, Ground News, and get the app at ground.news/gurus.

On this week's show we have a broad ranging discussion with the well known journalist and author Virginia Heffernan. Virginia has written a bunch on the topic of technology, social media, scientism, and especially the Edge organisation. We discuss her research into Edge and related figures but also range further afield to cover debates in academia, the culture war and gurus, anthropology debates in the 90s, race & IQ rationalists, and other such topics.One short service note is that Matt is incognito for part of the conversation as he had a prior appointment so you will have to endure Chris functioning on his own but do not fear our intrepid psychologist re-emerges to offer some words of wisdom at the end. Also, the conversation with Virginia was recorded in advance of the events in Ukraine so no recent events are discussed (which is probably for the best).For those who want to do a bit more digging on the topics discussed, below are a bunch of related articles and you can also follow Virginia on Twitter (@page88) and check out her new podcast 'This is Critical' which encourages people to look critically at a wide array of topics, which is quite on brand for us!LinksVirginia's piece on Edge & John BrockmanVirginia's essays on WiredVirginia's Substack piece on Jordan PetersonVirginia's Substack piece on Peter ThielVirginia's WebsiteVirginia's book: Magic & Loss- The Internet as ArtInsider article on the sordid tale of Chris chanTwo articles Chris wrote on his ancient blog about the Captain Cook debate (part 1 and part 2)This Week's SponsorCheck out the sponsor of this week's episode, Ground News, and get the app at ground.news/gurus.

Matt and Chris finally leave the Rogan-verse behind, activate their Infinite Improbability Drive, and blast off for the Bob-o-verse. In an off-again / on-again, will they / won't they battle of wits, we outmanoeuvre Bob by covering an episode that he planned to record for our benefit, which we then explained we wouldn't cover because that would violate our rules, which he decided to record anyway, and we then decided it would be alright to cover because he thought we weren't going to cover it. Which one of us is playing 4-dimensional chess and who's playing Hungry Hippo? We're not sure.Robert Wright is a journalist, author, independent commentator, and podcaster. A stalwart of the public intellectual scene, he never joined the Intellectual Dark Web. How's that for a recommendation!? He's written and thought, or thought and then written about so many topics it's impossible to mention them all, but they span evolution, Buddhism, geopolitics, philosophy, and everything in between. But is he a guru?(Spoiler) Of course he is. Yes, definitely. But is he a good guru? Well, we're not going to tell you. You're going to have to tune in to find out. Chris and Matt are simple folk, but they do their best to wrap their heads around Bob's cosmic philosophy, which spans the fundamental algorithms of evolution, black holes, alternative universes, and how we should probably all be nice to one another if we want to create a global brain. You might think grokking those ideas would be like watching Koyaanisqatsi while tripping on ayahuasca, but actually it all makes sense. We think.But is it true? Is it real? Is Wright right? That my friends, is up to you to decide. But in this episode we will open the door.... (and possibly resolve the mystery of consciousness at the same time, turns out there was no problem all along).Links Timbah on Toast's new video on Tim Pool: Fence SitterKnowledge Fight: Formulaic Objections Part 4The Dharma of Bob 8: A Cosmic View of Our Situation | Robert Wright & Josh Summers | The Wright ShowWhat is Tribalism? Non-Zero NewsletterSponsorCheck out the sponsor of this week's episode, Ground News to compare news coverage. Spot media bias. And be better informed. Download the free Ground News app at ground.news/gurus.CoverartThanks to Mark Ledwich (@mark_ledwich) and Elsa Jansen (@ElsaJansen) for the coverart this week! Contributions for coverart for upcoming episodes always welcome.

This week we speak to fellow traveller, kindred spirit, and vaccine misinformation debunker, Dr Dan Wilson. Yes, we know we've talked SO much about anti-vax rhetoric recently, and we hope the day will soon come when we can leave it all behind us, but friends, today is not that day.For more than a year, Dan's YouTube channel DebunkTheFunk has focused on rebutting COVID and vaccine misinformation from characters such as Geert Vanden-Bossche, Joseph Mercola and RFK Jnr. His recent episodes on Robert Malone and Peter Mc Collough have been an invaluable source for the decoders for our recent episodes. So of course we were delighted that Dan could come speak to us about what he does, what they do, and what kind of rhetorical tropes and tricks he sees from these characters.Dan seems to suffer from the same masochistic malaise we do, in feeling compelled to listen to some of the worst material available on the internet, so as to point out what's wrong with it. And he accomplishes that mission effectively, and most mysteriously for Chris and Matt, concisely as well.It's not all negative, because as well as talking about anti-vaxxers specifically, we all bask in our shared admiration for This Week in Virology, the kind of critical yet open-minded science communication show we'd all love to see a lot more of. We also talk about the kind of everyday epistemics that we can all practice to separate fact from fiction, and the kind of public engagement that genuine experts, researchers and scientists need to practice in order to take back the infosphere from snake-oil salesmen and attention-seekers of all kinds. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to Dan. We love what he does, and we hope he goes on doing it for a long time to come. We hope you enjoy it too, and we heartily recommend sharing DebunkTheFunk with friends, family and colleagues who have slipped down the conspiratorial rabbit-hole on COVID and vaccines.

To cap off our impromptu mini-series focusing on the Rogan-verse we take a critical look at Joe's short (non) apology video responding to the Spotify controversy surrounding his recent episodes with Robert Malone & Peter McCullough.In it we get to see a charming Joe Rogan being humble and compromising, while standing firm to explain why his critics have got him all wrong. He's not some hardline anti-vaccine advocate with an agenda to spread covid misinformation, he's just a normal guy who likes to have interesting conversations and hear from both sides(tm) on controversial topics.Joe's certainly on the charm offensive and he's already won plaudits from the heterodox for doing the right thing but are these really deserved? And how well does what Joe says hold up when you look at it critically? We do what few will bother and compare & contrast how Joe describes what he does vs. what he actually does and says in his content. And we find a few discrepancies that seem worth mentioning.This will be our last dip into the Rogan-verse for the next while but we would encourage anyone who wants more to go back to our episodes on Rogan & Jocko Willink or the combined episode on Robert Malone & Peter McCullough.Whether you are a fan of Rogan or a critic, we hope you can find something useful in our critical evaluation and we will back soon with a full length decoding.LinksJoe Rogan's apology videoDTG: Episode on Robert Malone & Peter McCulloughDTG: Episode on Joe Rogan & Jocko WillinkTimbah on Toast: Tim Pool - Fence SitterArticle by Tristan Flock on what Malone & McCullough have actually said and promotedSpotify's new platform rules on Misinformation