Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, we’re going to try and figure out "digital god." I figured we’ve been doing Decoder long enough, let’s just get after it. Can we build an artificial intelligence so powerful it changes the world and answers all our questions? The AI industry has decided the answer is yes. In September, OpenAI’s Sam Altman published a blog post claiming we’ll have superintelligent AI in “a few thousand days.” And earlier this month, Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic published a 14,000-word post laying out what he thinks such a system will be capable of when it does arrive, which he says could be as soon as 2026. Verge senior AI reporter Kylie Robison joins me on the show to break it all down. Links: Machines of Loving Grace | Dario Amodei The Intelligence Age | Sam Altman Anthropic’s CEO thinks AI will lead to a utopia | The Verge AI manifestos flood the tech zone | Axios OpenAI just raised $6.6 billion to build ever-larger AI models | The Verge OpenAI was a research lab — now it’s just another tech company | The Verge California governor vetoes major AI safety bill | The Verge Inside the white-hot center of AI doomerism | NYT Microsoft and OpenAI’s close partnership shows signs of fraying | NYT The $14 Billion question dividing OpenAI and Microsoft | WSJ Anthropic has floated $40 Billion valuation in funding talks | The Information Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s episode, well — it’s a ride. I’m talking to Intuit CEO Sasan Goodarzi, who’s built Intuit into a juggernaut business software company in part through a series of major acquisitions: TurboTax, MailChimp, CreditKarma, and loads more. There’s a lot of good Decoder material there, and we get into it. But it’s TurboTax, and the company’s tax lobbying efforts to protect it, that really drives a major narrative about Intuit, for better and worse. So you can bet I asked Sasan about all this, and it got a bit contentious. In fact, the company's chief communications officer even demanded we delete a portion of this interview over an exchange with Sasan on TurboTax. Don’t worry — we don’t do that here at The Verge. So expect to hear that section right up top, with the rest of the interview following after. Links: Inside TurboTax’s 20-year fight to stop Americans from filing taxes for free| ProPublica TurboTax deliberately hid free file page from Google Search | ProPublica TurboTax maker Intuit spent millions in record lobbying blitz | OpenSecrets FTC: Intuit’s “free” TurboTax ads misled consumers | The Verge TurboTax isn’t allowed to say it’s ‘free’ anymore | The Verge Intuit owes you money if it made you pay for TurboTax “free” | The Verge IRS extends its Free File tax program for five more years | The Verge IRS Direct File set to expand availability in a dozen new states | IRS Mint is shutting down, and it’s pushing users toward Credit Karma | The Verge Intuit Mailchimp CEO Rania Succar on Decoder | Decoder Ethics Statement | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24037861 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s episode is a little different: Digitas CEO Amy Lanzi and I recorded this conversation live on stage during advertising week in New York City at an event graciously hosted by Adweek. I've actually been dying to talk to Amy. Digitas is one of the most important agencies in the entire advertising business with huge clients and massive influence over big platforms like Instagram and YouTube. After all, they're the ones buying the ads that keep all of those companies afloat. As you'd expect, she has a lot of thoughts about influencers, creators, AI, and everything that is going to change the advertising industry in the months and years to come. Links: Publicis Groupe acquires influencer-marketing giant Influential | Marketing Dive Epsilon has first Digital CDP to provide native omni-channel activation | Epsilon Stagwell is on the hunt for adtech as the ad company continues its acquisition spree | BI Emma Chamberlain Is the People’s Influencer | Allure Inside the World of Sephora Squad | Marketing Scoop Fanatics Launches Fanatics Live, a Next-Gen Live Commerce Platform | Fanatics There’s no AI without the cloud, says AWS CEO Adam Selipsky | The Verge A Google breakup is on the table, say DOJ lawyers | The Verge For Gen Z, TikTok Is the New Search Engine | The New York Times Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Luis von Ahn is the co-founder and CEO of Duolingo. There are lots of opportunities to enhance a product like Duolingo with AI, and we talk about all that — but I also wanted to talk to Luis about learning, generally. Duolingo is a global product, and there are a lot of tech tensions there, dealing with different user needs worldwide. We talk about it all in a pretty direct way... including all those unhinged things the owl does on social media. Links: Duolingo Introduces AI-Powered Innovations at Duocon 2024 (Duolingo) Video Call with Lily (Duolingo / YouTube) AI Boosts Duolingo As Company Posts First Profit (Nasdaq) Foreign Language Training (US State Department) Exploring My Villain Origin Story (Duolingo / TikTok) Duolingo cuts workers as it relies more on AI (The Washington Post) Why Silicon Valley Is Talking About Founder Mode (The New York Times) Duolingo's Math and Music lessons finally hit Android a year after iOS (Android Police) Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky on taking it back to basics (Decoder / The Verge) How Duolingo is using its 'unhinged content' with Duo the Owl (Digiday) How we turned Duo's butt into a viral Super Bowl commercial (Duolingo) A Duolingo employee has apologised for joking about Amber Heard (The Tab) Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24031882 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I’m talking with my good friend David Pierce, Vergecast co-host and The Verge’s editor-at-large, about something he spends an ungodly amount of time thinking and writing about: software. Scores of new workplace apps are cropping with clever metaphors to try to make us work differently. Sometimes that works… and sometimes it really, really doesn’t. And it feels like the addition of AI to the mix will accelerate the pace of experimentation here in pretty radical ways. Links: Why software is eating the world | Wall Street Journal (2011) Mailchimp CEO Rania Succar on why email makes sense for Intuit | The Verge Why would anyone make a website in 2023? | The Verge Wix CEO Avishai Abrahami isn’t worried AI will kill the web | The Verge Figma CEO Dylan Field is optimistic about AI | The Verge We don’t sell saddles here | Stewart Butterfield (2014) The CEO of Zoom wants AI clones in meetings | The Verge Dropbox CEO Drew Houston wants you to embrace AI | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rabbit’s adorable R1 gadget launched with a lot of hype, but early reviews of the device were universally bad. Now, a core feature, its long-promised LAM Playground has arrived. I had a lot of big questions for CEO Jesse Lyu about how it all works — not just technologically, but if his plans are sustainable from a business and legal perspective. Links: Rabbit R1 review: an unfinished, unhelpful AI gadget | The Verge Loopholes aren’t a technology | Buzzfeed News (2012) I tested Rabbit R1's next generation LAM — and it tried to gaslight me | Tom’s Hardware I tried Rabbit's LAM Playground, and I'm still disappointed | Android Authority Rabbit's AI bot will try to help you do anything (keyword is 'try') | Fast Company Rabbit’s web-based ‘large action model’ agent arrives on R1 October 1 | TechCrunch Rabbit R1 founder defends “unfinished” AI gadget | City AM AI hardware is in its flip-phone phase | Fast Company The iPhone 16 will ship as a work in progress | The Verge Humane AI Pin review: Not even close | The Verge Marques Brownlee says ‘I hear you’ after fans criticize his new wallpaper app | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24024222 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking to Jason Schreier, a Bloomberg journalist and author of the new book Play Nice: The Rise, Fall, and Future of Blizzard Entertainment. If you don’t know Blizzard, you do know its games — the studio behind Warcraft, Diablo, and Overwatch has achieved legendary status over three decades. At the same time, the company has become emblematic of many of gaming’s biggest failings. Jason’s book is out on October 8th, and it’s an incredible, detailed accounting of how Blizzard started, grew into a hitmaker and, eventually, became a victim of its own mismanagement. Oh, and there are a series of chaotic acquisitions along the way, culminating in Microsoft’s purchase of Activision Blizzard last year. In this episode, Jason and I get into all of this and more. Links: Play Nice: The Rise, Fall and Future of Blizzard Entertainment | Hachette How Blizzard’s canceled MMO Titan fell apart | Polygon Blizzard was built on crunch, co-founder says, but it’s ‘not sustainable’ | Polygon Inside Activision and Blizzard’s corporate warcraft | Bloomberg Blizzard cofounder’s new company Dreamhaven aims to recreate old magic | Bloomberg Activision Blizzard’s rot goes all the way to the CEO, alleges report | The Verge Activision Blizzard’s workplace problems spurred $75 billion microsoft Deal | WSJ California settles Activision Blizzard gender discrimination lawsuit | The Verge Microsoft completes Activision Blizzard acquisition | The Verge Microsoft lays off 1,900 Activision Blizzard and Xbox employees | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Matt Strauss is the Chairman of Direct-to-Consumer at NBC Universal. That’s a big fancy title that means he’s not only in charge of Peacock but also every other streaming video offering the company has worldwide. So you can bet Matt and I got into what that structure even looks like, and how it all operates under the overall ownership of Comcast, which is in the middle of its own massive transition as its traditional cable TV business continues to fade. There’s a lot in this one – tech, media, sports, and culture, all at once. It’s quite a ride. Links: Comcast's new DVR ditches the hard drive, stores your recordings in the cloud (The Verge, 2013) Comcast and Charter Lost Another 269,000 Broadband Customers Last Quarter (The Motley Fool) It's official, people aren't watching TV as much as they used to (The Verge) The future of TV is up in the air (The Verge) Peacock Quarterly Loss Narrows to $348M as Subscribers Drop to 33M (THR) OTA and free online video drives higher US TV-video viewing hours (S&P Global) Streaming was part of the future — now it’s the only future (The Verge) US pay-TV losses reach a nadir (Light Reading) The 2024 Olympics were a big win for TV of all kinds (The Verge) Court blocks Disney-Fox-WBD sports streaming bundle (The Verge) An AI version of Al Michaels will deliver Olympic recaps on Peacock (The Verge) Transcript: Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have a very special episode of Decoder today. It’s become a tradition every fall to have Verge deputy editor Alex Heath interview Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg on the show at Meta Connect. This year, before his interview with Mark, Alex got to try a new pair of experimental AR glasses the company is calling Orion. Alex talked to Mark about a whole lot more, including why the company is investing so heavily in AR, why he's shifted away from politics, Mark's thoughts on the link between teen mental health and social media, and why the Meta chief executive is done apologizing for corporate scandals like Cambridge Analytica that he feels were overblown and misrepresented. Links: Hands-on with Orion, Meta’s first pair of AR glasses | The Verge The biggest news from Meta Connect 2024 | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg: publishers ‘overestimate the value’ of their work for training AI | The Verge Meta extends its Ray-Ban smart glasses deal beyond 2030 | The Verge The Ray-Ban Meta smart glasses actually make the future look cool | The Verge Meta has a major opportunity to win the AI hardware race | The Verge Instagram is putting every teen into more private and restrictive new account | The Verge Threads isn’t for news and politics, says Instagram’s boss | The Verge Facebook puts news on the back burner | The Verge Meta is losing a billion dollars on VR and AR every single month | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24017522 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; our editor is Callie Wright. This episode was additionally produced by Brett Putman and Vjeran Pavic. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Josh Miller, co-founder and CEO of The Browser Company, a relatively new software maker that develops the Arc browser. The company also has a mobile app called Arc Search that does AI summaries of webpages, which puts it right in the middle of a contentious debate in the tech industry around paying web creators for their work. We’ve been talking about these topics pretty much nonstop for last year here on Decoder. So I was really excited to have Josh on the show to explore why he built Arc, what he hopes it will accomplish, and what might happen to browsers, search engines, and the web itself as these trends evolve. Links: Researcher reveals ‘catastrophic’ security flaw in the Arc browser | The Verge The Arc browser is the Chrome replacement I’ve been waiting for | The Verge Arc’s mobile browser is here — and it’s not really a web browser at all | The Verge Arc is getting better bookmarks and search results, all thanks to AI | The Verge Arc Search combines browser, search engine, and AI into something new | The Verge Judge rules that Google ‘is a monopolist’ in US antitrust case | The Verge Google paid Apple $20 billion in 2022 to be Safari’s default search engine | The Verge One startup's quest to take on Chrome and reinvent the web browser | Protocol Scenes from a dying web | Platformer Perplexity’s grand theft AI | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24011410 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Google’s in the middle of its antitrust case in just as many months, after it lost a landmark trial in August over anticompetitive search practices. This time around, the DOJ is claiming Google has another illegal monopoly in the online advertising market. Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner has been on the ground at the courthouse to hear testimony from news publishers, advertising experts, and Google executives to make sense of it — and, ultimately, to see whether a federal judge hands the company another antitrust defeat. Links: Google and DOJ return for round two of their antitrust fight | The Verge Judge rules that Google ‘is a monopolist’ in US antitrust case | The Verge In US v. Google, YouTube’s CEO defends the Google way The Verge Google and the DOJ’s ad tech fight is all about control | The Verge How Google altered a deal with publishers who couldn’t say no | The Verge Google dominates online ads, says antitrust trial witness, but publishers are feeling ‘stuck’ | The Verge US considers a rare antitrust move: breaking up Google | Bloomberg This deal helped turn Google into an ad powerhouse. Is that a problem? | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Roy Jakobs. He’s the CEO of Royal Philips, which makes medical devices ranging from MRI machines to ventilators. Philips has a long history —- the company began in the late 19th century as a lightbulb manufacturer, and over the past century it’s grown and shrunk in various ways. Basically, while every other company has been trying to get bigger, Philips has been paring itself down to a tight focus on healthcare, and Roy and I talked about why that market is worth the focus. Roy and I also talked about an ongoing controversy at Philips that he had a part in: In 2021, after years of consumer complaints, Philips was made to recall millions of its breathing machines. Those devices were eventually tied to more than 500 deaths. That’s a pretty big decision, with massive life-or-death consequences, and you’ll hear us talk about it in detail. Links: Problems reported with recalled Philips ventilators, BiPAP & CPAP machines | FDA FDA says 561 deaths tied to recalled Philips sleep apnea machines | CBS News Philips kept complaints about dangerous breathing machines secret | ProPublica Top Philips executive approved sale of defective breathing machines | ProPublica Philips reaches final pact with DOJ, FDA on ventilator recall | WSJ Philips suspends U.S. sales of breathing machines after recall | NYT CPAP maker reaches $479 million settlement on breathing device defects | NYT Philips exits shrinking home entertainment business | Reuters Original TSMC investor Philips sells off final shares | PC World Philips unveils new AI-powered cardiovascular ultrasound | Mass Device Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24006874 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve been covering the rise of AI image editing very closely here on Decoder and at The Verge for several years now — the ability to create photorealistic images with nothing more than a chatbot prompt could completely reset our cultural relationship to photography. But one argument keeps cropping up in response. You’ve heard it a million times, and it’s when people say “it’s just like Photoshop,” with “Photoshop” standing in for the concept of image editing generally. So today, we’re trying to understand exactly what it means, and why our new world of AI image tools is different — and yes, in some cases the same. Verge reporter Jess Weatherbed recently dove into this for us, and I asked her to join me in going through the debate and the arguments one by one to help figure it out. Links: You’re here because you said AI image editing was just like Photoshop | The Verge No one’s ready for this | The Verge The AI photo editing era is here, and it’s every person for themselves | The Verge Google’s AI ‘Reimagine’ tool helped us add disasters and corpses to photos | The Verge X’s new AI image generator will make Taylor Swift in lingerie and Kamala Harris with a gun | The Verge Grok will make gory images — just tell it you're a cop. | The Verge Leica launches first camera with Content Credentials | Content Authenticity Initiative You can use AI to get rid of Samsung’s AI watermark | The Verge Spurred by teen girls, states move to nan deepfake nudes | NYT Florida teens arrested for creating ‘deepfake’ AI nude images of classmates | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mike Krieger, the new chief product officer at Anthropic, one of the hottest AI companies in the industry. Anthropic’s main product right now is Claude, the name of both its industry-leading AI model and a chatbot that competes with ChatGPT. Mike has a fascinating resume: he was the cofounder of Instagram, and then started AI-powered newsreader Artifact. I was a fan of Artifact, so I wanted to know more about the decision to shut it down as well as the decision to sell it to Yahoo. And then I wanted to know why Mike decided to join Anthropic and work in AI — an industry with a lot of investment, but very few consumer products to justify it. What’s this all for? Links: Instagram co-founder Mike Krieger is Anthropic’s new chief product officer | The Verge Instagram’s co-founders are shutting down their Artifact news app | The Verge Yahoo resurrects Artifact inside a new AI-powered News app | The Verge Authors sue Anthropic for training AI using pirated books | The Verge The text file that runs the internet | The Verge Anthropic’s crawler is ignoring websites’ anti-AI scraping policies | The Verge Golden Gate Claude | Anthropic Inside the white-hot center of AI doomerism | New York Times Dario Amodei, CEO of Anthropic, on the paradoxes of AI safety | Hard Fork No one’s ready for this | The Verge OpenAI announces SearchGPT, its AI-powered search engine | The Verge Amazon-backed Anthropic rolls out Claude AI for big business | CNBC Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24001603 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The web has a problem: huge chunks of it keep going offline. The web isn’t static, parts of it sometimes just… vanish. But it’s not all grim. The Internet Archive has a massive mission to identify and back up our online world into a vast digital library. In 2001, it launched the Wayback Machine, an interface that lets anyone call up snapshots of sites and look at how they used to be and what they used to say at a given moment in time. Mark Graham, director of the Wayback Machine, joins Decoder this week to explain both why and how the organization tries to keep the web from disappearing. Links: When Online Content Disappears | Pew Research Game Informer is shutting down | The Verge When Media Outlets Shutter, Why Are the Websites Wiped, Too? Slate MTV News lives on in the Internet Archive | The Verge The video game industry is mourning the loss of Game Informer | The Verge Guest host Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder How The Onion is saving itself from the digital media death spiral | Decoder The Internet Archive is defending its digital library in court today | The Verge The Internet Archive has lost its first fight to scan and lend ebooks | The Verge The Internet Archive just lost its appeal over ebook lending | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Decoder is off this week for a short end-of-summer break. We’ll be back with both our interview and explainer episodes after the Labor Day holiday. In the meantime we thought we’d re-share an explainer that’s taken on a whole new relevance in the last couple weeks, about deepfakes and misinformation. In February, I talked with Verge policy editor Adi Robertson how the generative AI boom might start fueling a wave of election-related misinformation, especially deepfakes and manipulated media. It’s not been quite an apocalyptic AI free-for-all out there. But the election itself took some really unexpected turns in these last couple of months. Now we’re heading into the big, noisy home stretch, and use of AI is starting to get really weird — and much more troublesome. Links: The AI-generated hell of the 2024 election | The Verge AI deepfakes are cheap, easy, and coming for the 2024 election | Decoder Elon Musk posts deepfake of Kamala Harris that violates X policy | The Verge Donald Trump posts a fake AI-generated Taylor Swift endorsement | The Verge X’s Grok now points to government site after misinformation warnings | The Verge Political ads could require AI-generated content disclosures soon | The Verge The Copyright Office calls for a new federal law regulating deepfakes | The Verge How AI companies are reckoning with elections | The Verge The lame AI meme election | Axios Deepfakes' parody loophole | Axios Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Decoder is off this week for a short end-of-summer break. We’ll be back with both our interview and explainer episodes after the Labor Day holiday, and I’m very excited for what we have coming up on the schedule. But while we’re out, we’d like to highlight a great episode from the Land of the Giants podcast, which is over at Vulture this season, for a deep dive into Disney. Can it be a tech company? It’s the question that defines the struggles of its streaming service Disney Plus — and it also tells us where it needs to go in the future to compete with Amazon, Apple, and Netflix. Links: Disney Is a Tech Company? | Vulture Why Disney plussed itself | Vulture Disney’s CEO drama explained, with Julia Alexander | Decoder The clock is ticking on Disney’s streaming strategy | Decoder The Disney Plus, Hulu, and Max streaming bundle is now available | The Verge Disney reportedly wants to bring always-on channels to Disney Plus | The Verge How baseball's tech team built the future of television | The Verge The year Netflix ended the streaming wars | The Ringer Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Onion is a comedy institution — and like everything else in media, it went on a pure nightmare hell ride in the 2010s. We could do an entire episode on the G/O Media calamity, but the short version is: A bunch of friends just managed to buy The Onion, and they're busy relaunching the website, going back to print, and, clearly, having a blast doing it. CEO Ben Collins and chief product officer Danielle Strle joined me to explain how that even works in 2024. Links: The Onion sold by G/O Media | The New York Times Sam Reich on revamping the game show - and Dropout’s success | NPR Platformer’s Casey Newton on surviving the great media collapse | Decoder Craig Silverman: Digital advertising’s structure has been weaponized | Digiday US Warns a Gaza Ceasefire Would Only Benefit Humanity | The Onion The Truth is Paywalled but the Lies are Free | Current Affairs A newsroom expands and The Onion is out again on paper | Washington Post Report: Nuclear War Sounds Fucking Amazing Right Now | The Onion Google defends AI search results after they told us to put glue on pizza | The Verge Jury awards nearly $1B to Sandy Hook families in Alex Jones defamation case | CNN ‘No Way to Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens | The Onion Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23989633 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking with Thomas Dohmke, the CEO of GitHub. GitHub is the platform for managing code – but since 2018, it’s also been owned by Microsoft. We talk a lot about how independent GitHub really is inside of Microsoft — especially now that Microsoft is all-in on AI, and Gitbhub Copilot is one of the biggest AI product success stories that exists right now. But his perspective on AI is pretty refreshing: It’s clear there’s still a long way to go. Links: Original GitHub landing page | Wayback Machine Introducing Entitlements | GitHub Blog ashtom (Thomas Dohmke) | GitHub The developers suing over GitHub Copilot got dealt a major blow in court | The Verge GitHub Copilot can now help start a project with AI | The Verge GitHub users can mess around with different AI models | The Verge GitHub’s AI-powered Copilot will help you write code for $10 a month | The Verge Google DeepMind co-founder joins Microsoft as CEO of its new AI division | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23986019 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s a major internet speech regulation currently making its way through Congress, and it has a really good chance of becoming law. It’s called KOSPA: the Kids Online Safety and Privacy Act, which passed in the Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support late last month. At a high level, KOSPA could radically change how tech platforms handle speech in an effort to try and make the internet safer for minors. It’s a controversial bill, with a lot going on. To break it all down, I invited on Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner, who’s been covering these bills for months now, to explain what’s happening, what these bills actually do, and what the path forward for this legislation looks like. Links: Senate passes the Kids Online Safety Act | The Verge The teens lobbying against the Kids Online Safety Act | The Verge How the Kids Online Safety Act was dragged into a political war | NYT House Republicans won’t bring up KOSA in its current form | Punchbowl News Why a landmark kids online safety bill is still deeply divisive | NBC News Why Sen. Schatz thinks child safety bills can trump the First Amendment | Decoder Child safety bills are reshaping the internet for everyone | The Verge Online age verification is coming, and privacy is on the chopping block | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Replika founder and CEO Eugenia Kuyda, and I will just tell you right away, we get all the way to people marrying their AI companions, so get ready. It’s a ride. Replika’s basic pitch is pretty simple: what if you had an AI friend? The company offers avatars you can curate to your liking that pretend to be human, so they can be your friend, your therapist, or even your date. That’s a lot for a private company running an iPhone app, and Eugenia and I talked a lot about the consequences of this idea and what it means for the future of human relationships. Links: The AI boyfriend business is booming | Axios Speak, Memory | The Verge Your new AI Friend is almost ready to meet you | Verge What happens when sexting chatbots dump their human lovers | Bloomberg AI chatbot company Replika restores erotic roleplay for some users — Reuters Replika’s New AI App Is Like Tinder but With Sexy Chatbots — Gizmodo Replika’s new AI therapy app tries to bring you to a zen island — The Verge Replika CEO: AI chatbots aren’t just for lonely men | Fortune Gaze Into the Dystopian Hell of Bots Dating Bots | Slate Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23980789 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking to Jonathan Kanter, the assistant attorney general for antitrust at the United States Department of Justice. This is Jonathan’s second time on the show, and it’s a bit of an emergency podcast situation. On Monday, a federal court issued a monumental decision in the DOJ’s case against Google, holding that Google Search and the text ads in search are monopolies. The court hasn’t decided on the penalties for all this yet — that process is scheduled to start next month. But it’s the biggest antitrust win against a tech company since the Microsoft case from two decades ago. I wanted to know what Jonathan thought of the ruling, what it means for the law, and most importantly, what remedies he’s going to seek to try and restore competition in search. Links: Judge rules that Google ‘is a monopolist’ in US antitrust case | The Verge All the spiciest parts of the Google antitrust ruling | The Verge Now that Google is a monopolist, what’s next? | The Verge DOJ’s Kanter says the antitrust fight against Big Tech is just beginning | Decoder The DOJ Antitrust Division isn’t afraid to go to court | The Verge The US government is gearing up for an AI antitrust fight | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23979725 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Glenn Fogel, the CEO of Booking Holdings, which owns a large portfolio of familiar travel brands: OpenTable, Kayak, and Priceline, as well as its largest subsidiary, Booking.com. This episode is pure Decoder bait all the way through — from Booking’s structure, to competition with hotels and airlines increasingly going direct to consumer, even to how European regulation affects competition with Google. Oh, and of course, how Booking is incorporating AI; Glenn has some fascinating thoughts there. Glenn really got into it with me — there’s a lot going on in this space, and it’s interesting because there are so many players and so much competition across so many of the layers, even among Booking’s own subsidiaries. I think we probably could have gone twice as long. Links: The oral history of travel’s greatest acquisition | Skift Long-term travel looks like a strong growth industry, says Booking’s Glenn Fogel | CNBC Ryanair wins screen-scraping case against Booking.com | Airways Aggregation Theory | Stratechery A Call for Embracing AI—But With a ‘Human Touch’ | Time Booking.com launches new AI Trip Planner | Booking Priceline releases new AI platform and ‘Penny’ chatbot | Skift Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23976178 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Amanda Rose Smith. Our supervising producer is Liam James. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every time we talk about AI, we get one big piece of feedback that I really want to dive into: how the lightning-fast explosion of AI tools affects the climate. AI takes a lot of energy, and there’s a huge unanswered question as to whether using all that juice for AI is actually worth it, both practically and morally. It’s messy and complicated and there are a bunch of apparent contradictions along the way — so it’s perfect for Decoder. Verge senior science reporter Justine Calma joins me to see if we can untangle this knot. Links: This startup wants to capture carbon and help data centers cool down | The Verge Google’s carbon footprint balloons in its Gemini AI era | The Verge Taking a closer look at AI’s supposed energy apocalypse | Ars Technica AI is exhausting the power grid. Tech firms are seeking a miracle | WaPo AI Is already wreaking havoc on global power systems | Bloomberg What do Google’s AI answers cost the environment? | Scientific American AI is an energy hog | MIT Tech Review Microsoft’s AI obsession is jeopardizing its climate ambitions | The Verge The answer to AI’s energy needs could be blowing in the wind | The Verge AI already uses as much energy as a small country | Vox Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Callie Wright and Amanda Rose Smith. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hanneke Faber, the CEO of Logitech. Hanneke’s still pretty fresh to the role: She joined the company last October, after former CEO Bracken Darrell left following the pandemic boom and subsequent economic slowdown that halted Logitech’s growth. Hanneke, who comes from Unilever and Procter & Gamble, is new to the world of consumer electronics. So we talked about the structural changes she’s already making at Logitech, and the changes she intends to make in the future. It sounds like some Logitech products, like its smart home doorbells and cameras, are not long for this world. You’ll also hear Hanneke talk about a concept called the “forever mouse” — a mouse you buy once and upgrade over time with new software features — features that of course might carry a subscription fee. Subscription mice! It’s a lot. Links: How Logitech bet big on work from home | Decoder Logitech CEO Bracken Darrell is leaving for another job | The Verge Webcams have become impossible to find, and prices are skyrocketing | The Verge Logitech appoints Hanneke Faber as new CEO | Reuters Logitech’s new low-profile keyboard fits Cherry MX keycaps | The Verge Logitech’s Meta Quest stylus helps artists work in 3D | The Verge Logitech targets faster growth via education, health and AI | Reuters Logitech wants you to press its new AI button | The Verge Logitech’s best gaming mouse just got better | The Verge Logitech’s articulating arm webcam launches on Indiegogo | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23970888 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Supreme Court has just taken on the entire idea of the US administrative state — and the Court is winning. Earlier this month, a conservative majority overturned a longstanding legal principle called Chevron deference. The implications are enormous for every possible kind of regulation — and net neutrality looks poised to be the first victim. Verge editor Sarah Jeong joins me to explain why. Links: Supreme Court overrules Chevron, kneecapping federal regulators | The Verge What SCOTUS just did to broadband, the right to repair, the environment, and more | The Verge FCC votes to restore net neutrality | The Verge Reinstatement of net neutrality rules temporarily halted by appeals court | The Verge Clarence Thomas' 38 Vacations: The Other Billionaires Who Have Treated the Supreme Court Justice to Luxury Travel | ProPublica The Supreme Court's coming war with Joe Biden | Vox Transcript: Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaringe. RJ was on the show last September when we chatted at the Code Conference, but the past 10 months have seen a whirlwind of change throughout the car industry and at Rivian in particular. This year alone, the company unveiled five new models in its lineup and also just announced a $5 billion joint venture with Volkswagen. We got into all that and more. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ve heard me talk to a lot of car CEOs on the show, but it’s rare to talk to a car company founder, and RJ was game to talk about basically anything — even extremely minor feature requests I pulled from the forums. It’s a fun one. Links: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder VW will invest up to $5 billion in Rivian as part of new EV joint venture | The Verge Rivian blazed a trail with its adventure EVs — can it stay on top? | The Verge Rivian R2 revealed: a $45,000 electric off-roader for the masses | The Verge Rivian surprises with R3 and R3X electric SUVs | The Verge Rivian puts its Georgia factory plans on pause | The Verge Rivian’s R1 vehicles are getting a gut overhaul | The Verge Rivian R1S review: king of the mountain | The Verge Rivian’s long, narrow road to profit | WSJ Tesla’s Share of U.S. Electric Car Market Falls Below 50% | NYT Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23965790 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week I’m talking to Matthew Ball, who was last on the show in 2022 to talk about his book “The Metaverse: How it Will Revolutionize Everything.” It’s 2024 and it’s safe to say that has not happened yet. But Matt’s still on the case — in fact he just released an almost complete update of the book, now with the much more sober title, “Building the Spatial Internet.” Matt and I talked a lot about where the previous metaverse hype cycle landed us, and what there is to learn from these boom and bust waves. We talked about the Apple Vision Pro quite a bit; if you read or watched my review when it came out, you’ll know I think the Vision Pro is almost an end point for one set of technologies. I wanted to know if Matt felt the same and what needs to happen to make all of this more mainstream and accessible. Links: Fully revised and updated edition to the “The Metaverse” | W.W. Norton Apple Vision Pro review: magic, until it’s not | The Verge Apple’s Vision Pro: five months later | Vergecast Is the metaverse going to suck? A conversation with Matthew Ball | Decoder Interviewing Meta CTO Andrew Bosworth on the Metaverse, VR/AR, AI | Matthew Ball Interviewing Epic CEO Tim Sweeney and author Neal Stephenson | Matthew Ball An Interview with Matthew Ball about Vision Pro and the state of gaming | Stratechery Tim Sweeney explains how the metaverse might actually work | The Verge Fortnite is winning the metaverse | The Verge Is the Metaverse Just Marketing? | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Arati Prabhakar, the director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. That’s a cabinet-level position, where she works as the chief science and tech advisor to President Biden. Arati and her team of about 140 people at the OSTP are responsible for advising the president on not only big developments in science but also about major innovations in tech, much of which come from the private sector. Her job involves guiding regulatory efforts, government investment, and setting priorities around big-picture projects like Biden’s cancer moonshot and combating climate change. More recently, Arati has been spending a lot of time talking about the future of AI and semiconductors, so I had the opportunity to dig into both of those topics with her as the generative AI boom continues and the results of the CHIPS Act become more visible. One note before we start: I sat down with Arati last month, just a couple of days before the first presidential debate and its aftermath, which swallowed the entire news cycle. So you’re going to hear us talk a lot about President Biden’s agenda and the White House’s policy record on AI, among other topics. But you’re not going to hear anything about the president, his age, or the presidential campaign. Links: Biden’s top science adviser resigns after acknowledging demeaning behavior | NYT Teen girls confront an epidemic of deepfake nudes in schools | NYT Senate committee passes three bills to safeguard elections from AI | The Verge The RIAA versus AI, explained | The Verge Lawyers say OpenAI could be in real trouble with Scarlett Johansson | The Verge Barack Obama on AI, free speech, and the future of the internet | Decoder Meet the Woman Who Showed President Biden ChatGPT | WIRED Biden releases AI executive order | The Verge Biden’s science adviser explains the new hard line on China | WashPo Where the CHIPS Act money has gone | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23961278 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking to Nicholas Thompson, the CEO of The Atlantic. I was really excited to talk to Nick. Like so many media CEOs, including Vox Media’s, he just signed a deal allowing OpenAI to use The Atlantic’s vast archives as training data, but he also has a rich background in tech. Before he was the CEO of The Atlantic, Nick was the editor-in-chief of Wired, where he set his sights on AI reporting well before anyone else. I was also really interested in asking Nick about the general sense that the AI companies are getting vastly more than they’re giving with these sorts of deals — yes, they’re paying some money, but I’ve heard from so many of you that the money might now be the point — that there’s something else going on here – that maybe allowing creativity to get commodified this way will come with a price tag so big money can never pay it back. If there is anyone who could get into it with me on that question, it’s Nick. Links: Vox Media and The Atlantic sign content deals with OpenAI | The Verge Journalists “deeply troubled” by OpenAI’s content deals with Vox, The Atlantic | Ars Technica What the RIAA lawsuits mean for AI and copyright | The Verge Perplexity plagiarized our story about how Perplexity Is a bullshit machine | Wired How to stop Perplexity and save the web from bad AI | Platformer The text file that runs the internet | The Verge OpenAI, WSJ owner News Corp strike content deal valued at over $250 Million | WSJ The media bosses fighting back against AI — and the ones cutting deals — WashPo The New York Times spent $1 million so far in its OpenAI lawsuit | The Verge AI companies have all kinds of arguments against paying for copyrighted content | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Canva got its start more than a decade ago as a different form of disruptive tech for creatives. It’s a web-based platform that makes design tools cheaper and accessible for individuals, schools, and businesses from tiny to enterprise. Melanie has big goals to grow the company — and try to do good in the process. Links: Canva tackled digital design — and now the office suite is next | The Verge Canva Inks Deals With Warner Music Group, Merlin | Variety Canva founders join Bill Gates’ Giving Pledge to give away most of their fortune | Sydney Morning Herald Canva partnership tackling extreme poverty in Malawi one year on | GiveDirectly Canva’s Two-Step Plan: Celebrating 10 years of impact | Canva Adobe’s new terms of service aren’t the problem — it’s the trust | The Verge ‘The general perception is: Adobe is an evil company that will do whatever it takes to F its users.’ | The Verge Why Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen thinks AI is the future | The Verge Canva corporate 'Hamilton' cringe rap presentation goes viral | YouTube Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23955121 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s almost the Fourth of July, and that means it’s time for our annual grilling episode. This year, I’m talking with Big Green Egg CEO Dan Gertsacov, who has big plans for using very modern fan-based marketing techniques to expand the market for the company’s old-fashioned, fire-burning, aspirational product. Links: Big Green Egg Appoints a New CEO | CookOut News Big Green Egg 50th Anniversary 1974-2024 | Big Green Egg Yep, Big Green Egg Just Made a Beer Keg | Gear Patrol AI could kill creative jobs that ‘shouldn’t have been there in the first place,’ OpenAI CTO says | Fortune Campfires, explained | Vox An ‘Epidemic’ of Loneliness Threatens Health of Americans | Scientific American RIP: Here are 70 things millennials have killed | Mashable “Genius of the AND” | Jim Collins Keurig's attempt to 'DRM' its coffee cups totally backfired | The Verge A Look at the Danny Meyer Documentary The Restaurateur | Eater Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23952121 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about politics and lobbying in America. It’s hard to imagine a time when the influence of big corporations and billionaires didn’t touch every part of American politics, but the kind of lobbying we have now didn’t really exist before the 1970s. Now, our political debates about everything from energy, finance, and healthcare are deeply intertwined with corporations and their money — and new big players in tech now spend tons of political money of their own. To understand the structure of today’s political lobbying and how we go here, I brought Pulitzer Prize winner Brody Mullins on the show. Brody has a new book he co-wrote with his brother Luke Mullins called The Wolves of K Street: The Secret History of How Big Money Took Over Big Government, which came out last month. It’s a definitive history of modern lobbying in America, told through the lens of some of the industry’s most unsavory characters and the influence they’ve exerted on DC politics across decades. Links: If Donald Trump Wins, Paul Manafort Will Be Waiting in the Wings | NYT Meta had its biggest lobbying quarter ever | The Verge Apple quietly bankrolled a lobbying group for app developers | The Verge The Many Reinventions of a Legendary Washington Influence Peddler | Politico The Wolves of K Street review: how lobbying swallowed Washington | The Guardian Big Tech Has a New Favorite Lobbyist: You | WSJ SOPA bill shelved after global protests from Google, Wikipedia and others | WashPo The Russia Inquiry Ended a Democratic Lobbyist’s Career. He Wants It Back. | NYT The Swamp Builders | WashPo The Rise and Fall of a K Street Renegade | WSJ Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Greg Peters, the co-CEO of Netflix. I caught up with Greg while he was at the Cannes Lions festival in France, which is basically the world’s biggest gathering of advertisers and marketers. It’s an increasingly important place for Greg to be, as Netflix’s new ad tier has nearly doubled in six months to more than 40 million subscribers and feels increasingly pivotal to the future of the company. On top of that, Netflix is updating its famous culture memo, and I wanted to chat with Greg about the changes he’s making to that document, and how he’s thinking about maintaining that culture as Netflix grows into things like advertising and gaming. Links: Netflix Culture Memo | Netflix Netflix Culture Memo (2009) | Netflix Streaming is cable now | The Verge Netflix’s ad tier hits 40 million users | The Verge Netflix is different now — and there’s no going back | The Verge Netflix just fired the organizer of the trans employee walkout | The Verge Netflix doesn’t want to hear it anymore | The Verge It’s hard to believe Samsung’s new, matte The Frame is actually a TV | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23946561 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got a special episode of the show today – I was traveling last week, so Verge deputy editor Alex Heath and our new senior AI reporter Kylie Robison are filling in for me, with a very different kind of episode about AI. We talk a lot about AI in a broad sense on Decoder — it comes up in basically every single interview I do these days. But we don’t spend a ton of time on the day-to-day happenings of the AI industry itself. So we thought it would be a good idea to take a beat and have Alex and Kylie actually break down the modern AI boom as it exists today: The companies you need to know, the most important news of the last few months, and what it’s actually like to be fully immersed in this industry every single day. Links: Google defends AI search results after they told us to put glue on pizza | The Verge Apple is putting ChatGPT in Siri for free later this year | The Verge AI will make money sooner than you’d think, says Cohere CEO Aidan Gomez | Decoder Humane is looking for a buyer after the AI Pin’s underwhelming debut | The Verge 2024 is a year of reckoning for AI | The Verge OpenAI researcher who resigned over safety concerns joins Anthropic | The Verge Hugging Face is sharing $10M worth of compute to beat big AI companies | The Verge The AI drama is heating up | Command Line Google and OpenAI are racing to rewire the internet | Command Line Elon Musk’s xAI raises $6 billion to fund its race against ChatGPT | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tubi is a free and very rapidly growing streaming TV platform — according to Nielsen, it had an average of a million viewers watching every minute in May 2024, beating out Disney Plus, Max, Peacock, and basically everything else, save Netflix and YouTube. All those streaming service price hikes are driving people to free options, and Tubi is right there to catch them. CEO Anjali Sud joins Decoder to explain why she thinks Tubi's model "could be" profitable, and how Tubi competes not only against the premium streamers, but also against the big competitors for viewers' time: TikTok and Youtube. Links: As streaming becomes more expensive, Tubi cashes in on the value of free | Los Angeles Times Tubi’s new redesign wants to push you down the rabbit hole | The Verge Tubi Rabbit AI: ChatGPT can give you better movie recommendations | The Verge The future of streaming is free ad-supported TV and movies | The Verge It’s true: people like leaving their TVs on in the background | The Verge Stubios is the new name of Tubi’s fan-fueled studio program | The Verge Comcast has a Netflix, Peacock, and Apple TV Plus bundle coming | The Verge A Disney, Hulu, and Max streaming bundle is on the way | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23942621 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Private equity is a simple concept — a PE firm uses some combination of money and debt to buy a company, then makes a profit — but the reality of what happens to the companies that get acquired is anything but. It's everywhere, and it's not going away. In this summer remix, we're talking with Brendan Ballou, author of Plunder: Private Equity’s Plan to Pillage America, about how we got here and what happens next. Links: Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys“R”Us — here’s why that matters | The Verge Private equity and mismanagement: Here's what really killed Red Lobster | Fast Company Sony and Apollo send letter expressing interest in $26 billion Paramount buyout | NBC News Plunder: Private Equity’s Plan to Pillage America | Brendan Ballou Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco | Bryan Borrough & John Helyar Barnes & Noble is going back to its indie roots to compete with Amazon | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cohere is one of the buzziest AI startups around right now. It's not making consumer products; it's focused on the enterprise market and making AI products for big companies. And there's a huge tension there: up until recently, computers have been deterministic. If you give computers a certain input, you usually know exactly what output you’re going to get. There’s a logic to it. But if we all start talking to computers with human language and getting human language back, well, human language is messy. And that makes the entire process of knowing what to put in and what exactly we’re going to get out of our computers different than it ever has been before. Links: Attention is all you need On the Dangers of Stochastic Parrots Introducing the AI Mirror Test, which very smart people keep failing | The Verge AI isn’t close to becoming sentient | The Conversation These are Microsoft’s Bing AI secret rules and why it says it’s named Sydney | The Verge ‘Godfather of AI’ quits Google with regrets and fears about his life’s work | The Verge Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott on Bing’s quest to beat Google | The Verge Top AI researchers and CEOs warn against ‘risk of extinction’ | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge Cara grew from 40k to 650k in a week because artists are fed up with Meta’s AI policies | TechCrunch How AI copyright lawsuits could make the whole industry go extinct | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23937899 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The art of video game design is flourishing, but it feels like a really grim time to be in the business of making and distributing games. Huge global publishers and tiny indie studios alike are facing huge financial pressures, and it doesn’t seem to be letting up anytime soon. So where did this enormous pressure come from, if consumer interest is high and sales are great? Verge video game reporter Ash Parrish joins Decoder to explain. Links: Global games market expected to grow to $189bn in 2024 | GamesIndustry.biz Why the video game industry is seeing so many layoffs | Polygon The tech industry’s layoffs and hiring freezes: all of the news | The Verge Fortnite made more than $9 billion in revenue in its first two years | The Verge Insomniac’s Spider-Man 2 Swings Past 10 Million Sold | IGN The future of Netflix games could look like reality TV | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Zoom CEO Eric Yuan — and let me tell you, this conversation is nothing like what I expected. It turns out Eric wants Zoom to be much, much more than just a videoconferencing platform. Zoom wants to take on Microsoft and Google and now has a big investment in AI – and Eric’s visions for what that AI will do are pretty wild. See, Eric really wants you to stop having to attend Zoom meetings yourself. You’ll hear him describe how he thinks one of the big benefits of AI at work will be letting us all create something he calls a “digital twin," essentially a deepfake of yourself that can go attend meetings on your behalf and even make decisions for you. I’ll just warn you: I tried to ask a bunch of the usual Decoder questions during this conversation, but once we got to digital twins going to Zoom meetings for people, well, I had a lot of followup questions. Links: Zoom gets its first major overhaul in 10 years, powered by generative AI | ZDNet An interview with Zoom CEO Eric Yuan | Stratechery / Ben Thompson Zoom is cutting about 150 jobs, or close to 2% of its workforce | CNBC Zoom meetings are about to get weirder thanks to the Vision Pro | The Verge Zoom Docs launches in 2024 with built-in AI collaboration features | The Verge Zoom rewrites its policies to make clear that your videos aren’t used to train AI tools | The Verge Zoom says its new AI tools aren’t stealing ownership of your content | The Verge Zoom adds “post-quantum” end-to-end encryption | Zoom Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23932774 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For nearly 20 years now, the web has been Google’s platform; we’ve all just lived on it. I think of Decoder as a show for people trying to build things, and a lot of people have built their things on that platform. For a lot of small businesses and content creators, that’s suddenly not stable anymore. The number one question I have for anyone building things on someone else’s platform is: What are you going to do when that platform changes the rules? Links: How Google is killing independent sites like ours | HouseFresh HouseFresh has virtually disappeared from Google Search results. Now what? | HouseFresh Google Is Killing Retro Dodo & Other Independent Sites | Retro Dodo Google CEO Sundar Pichai on AI-powered search and the future of the web | The Verge Will A.I. Break the Internet? Or Save It? | The New York Times Google confirms the leaked Search documents are real |The Verge An Anonymous Source Shared Thousands of Leaked Google Search API Documents with Me; Everyone in SEO Should See Them | SparkToro Mountain Weekly News Telly Visions E-ride Hero That Fit Friend Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Joseph Cox, one of the best cybersecurity reporters around and a co-founder of the new media site 404 Media. Joseph has a new book coming out in June called Dark Wire: The Incredible True Story of the Largest Sting Operation Ever, and I can’t recommend it enough. It’s basically a caper, but with the FBI running a phone network. For real. Joseph walks us through the fascinating world of underground criminal phone networks, and how secure messaging, a tech product beloved by drug traffickers, evolved from the days of BlackBerry Messenger to Signal. Along the way, the FBI got involved with its very own startup, ANOM, as part of one of the most effective trojan horse operations in the history of cybersecurity. Joseph’s book is a great read, but it also touches on a lot of things we talk about a lot here on Decoder. So this conversation was a fun one. Links: Dark Wire by Joseph Cox | Hachette Book Group How Vice became ‘a fucking clown show’ | The Verge Cyber Official Speaks Out, Reveals Mobile Network Attacks in US | 404 Media Revealed: The Country that Secretly Wiretapped the World for the FBI | 404 Media How Secure Phones for Criminals Are Sold on Instagram | Motherboard A Peek Inside the Phone Company Secretly Used in an FBI Honeypot | Motherboard The FBI secretly launched an encrypted messaging system for criminals | The Verge Canadian police have had master key to BlackBerry's encryption since 2010 | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who joined the show the day after the big Google I/O developer conference. Google’s focus during the conference was on how it’s building AI into virtually all of its products. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ve heard me talk about this idea a lot over the past year: I call it “Google Zero,” and I’ve been asking a lot of web and media CEOs what would happen to their businesses if their Google traffic were to go to zero. In a world where AI powers search with overviews and summaries, that’s a real possibility. What then happens to the web? I’ve talked to Sundar quite a bit over the past few years, and this was the most fired up I’ve ever seen him. I think you can really tell that there is a deep tension between the vision Google has for the future — where AI magically makes us smarter, more productive, more artistic — and the very real fears and anxieties creators and website owners are feeling right now about how search has changed and how AI might swallow the internet forever, and that he’s wrestling with that tension. Links: Google and OpenAI are racing to rewire the internet — Command Line Google I/O 2024: everything announced — The Verge Google is redesigning its search engine, and it’s AI all the way down — The Verge Project Astra is the future of AI at Google — The Verge Did SEO experts ruin the internet or did Google? — The Verge YouTube is going to start cracking down on AI clones of musicians — The Verge AI is killing the old web, and the new web struggles to be born — The Verge How Google is killing independent sites like ours — HouseFresh Inside the First 'SEO Heist' of the AI Era — Business Insider Google’s Sundar Pichai talks Search, AI, and dancing with Microsoft — Decoder Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23922415 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Last week, TikTok filed a lawsuit against the US government claiming the divest-or-ban law is unconstitutional — a case it needs to win in order to keep operating under Bytedance’s ownership. There’s a lot of back and forth between the facts and the law here: Some of the legal claims are complex and sit in tension with a long history of prior attempts to regulate speech and the internet, while the simple facts of what TikTok has already promised to do around the world contradict some its arguments. Verge editors Sarah Jeong and Alex Heath join me to explain what it all means. Links: TikTok and Bytedance v Merrick Garland (PDF) TikTok sues the US government over ban | The Verge Senate passes TikTok ban bill, sending it to President Biden’s desk | The Verge The legal challenges that lie ahead for TikTok — in both the US and China | The Verge Why the TikTok ban won’t solve the US’s online privacy problems. | Decoder Biden signs TikTok ‘ban’ bill into law, starting the clock for ByteDance to divest it | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen has been at the top of my list of people I’ve wanted to talk to for the show since we first launched — he’s led Adobe for nearly 17 years now, but he doesn’t do too many wide-ranging interviews. I’ve always thought Adobe was an underappreciated company — its tools sit at the center of nearly every major creative workflow you can think of — and with generative AI poised to change the very nature of creative software, it seemed particularly important to talk with Shantanu now. Adobe sits right at the center of the whole web of tensions, especially as the company has evolved its business and business model over time. And now, AI really changes what it means to make and distribute creative work. Not many people are seeing revenue returns on it just yet and there are the fundamental philosophical challenges of adding AI to photo and video tools. What does it mean when a company like Adobe, which makes the tools so many people use to make their art, sees the creative process as a step in a marketing chain, instead of a goal in and of itself? Links: How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao Adobe Launches Creative Cloud (2012) What was Photoshop like in 1994? Photoshop’s Generative Fill tool turns vacation photos into nightmares - The Verge New York Daily News, Chicago Tribune, and others sue OpenAI and Microsoft - The Verge The FAIR Act: A New Right to Protect Artists in the Age of AI | Adobe Blog Adobe’s Firefly generative AI tools are now generally available - The Verge This Wacom AI debacle has certainly taken a turn. - The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23917997 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re going to talk about the smart home — one of the oldest, most important, and most challenging dreams in the history of the tech industry. The idea of your house responding to you and your family, and generally being as automated and as smart as your phone or your laptop, has inspired generations of technologists. But after decades of promises, it’s all still pretty messy. Because the big problem with the smart home has been blindingly obvious for a very long time: interoperability. Yet there are some promising developments out there that might make it a little better. To help sort it all out, I invited Verge smart home reviewer Jen Tuohy, who is one of the most influential reporters on the smart home beat today. Jen and I break down how Matter, the open source standard, is trying to fix these issues, but there is still a lot of work to do. Links: Matter is now racing ahead, but the platforms are holding it back — The Verge 2023 in the smart home: Matter’s broken promises — The Verge Smart home hubs: what they are and why you need one — The Verge My smart kitchen: the good, the bad, and the future — The Verge How bad business broke the smart home — The Verge The smart home is finally getting out of your phone and into your home — The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Polestar CEO Thomas Ingenlath, whom I first interviewed on the show back in 2021. Those were heady days — especially for upstart EV companies like Polestar, which all seemed poised to capture what felt like infinite demand for electric cars. Now, in 2024, the market looks a lot different, and so does Polestar, which is no longer majority-owned by Volvo. Instead, Volvo is now a more independent sister company, and both Volvo and Polestar fall under Chinese parent company Geely. You know I love a structure shuffle, so Thomas and I really got into it: what does it mean for Volvo to have stepped back, and how much can Polestar take from Geely’s various platforms while still remaining distinct from the other brands in the portfolio? We also talked about the upcoming Polestar 3 SUV and Polestar 4 crossover, and I asked Thomas what he thinks of the Cybertruck. Links: Can Polestar design a new kind of car company? — Decoder The Polestar 3 isn’t out yet, and it’s already getting a big price cut — The Verge The Polestar 4 gets an official price ahead of its debut — The Verge Polestar makes the rear window obsolete with its new crossover coupe — The Verge Volvo and Polestar drift a little farther apart — The Verge Polestar gets a nearly $1 billion lifeline — The Verge Car-tech breakup fever is heating up — The Verge Polestar is working on its own smartphone to sync with its EVs — The Verge Polestar’s electric future looks high-performing, and promising — The Verge Electric car maker Polestar to cut around 450 jobs globally — Reuters Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23912151 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, Verge transportation editor Andy Hawkins and I are going to try and figure out Tesla. I said try — I did not say succeed. But we’re going to try. That’s because Tesla has been on a real rollercoaster these past two weeks, in terms of its stock price, its basic financials, and well, its vibes. If you’ve been following the company, you know that that gap between what the business is and how its valued has been getting bigger and bigger for years now – and lately, with Elon Musk saying he’s going all-in on autonomy and announcing a robotaxi event in August, it seems like we’re getting closer to a make or break moment, especially as competition in the broader EV market heats up. Links: Tesla reaches deals in China on self-driving cars — NYT Elon Musk goes ‘absolutely hard core’ in another round of Tesla layoffs — The Verge Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to dozens of deaths — The Verge Elon Musk says Tesla will reveal its robotaxi on August 8th — The Verge A cheaper Tesla is back on the menu — The Verge Tesla’s profits sink as the company struggles with cooling demand — The Verge Tesla lays off ‘more than 10 percent’ of its workforce, loses top executives — The Verge Tesla recalls all 3,878 Cybertrucks over faulty accelerator pedal — The Verge Elon Musk says it’s “time to reorganize” Tesla — The Verge Elon Musk lost Democrats on Tesla when he needed them most — WSJ Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A lot has changed since the last time Ola was on Decoder. Back then, he said Mercedes would have an all-EV lineup by 2030 — a promise a whole lot of car companies, including Mercedes, have now had to soften or walk back. But he doesn't see that as a setback at all, and he and Mercedes are both still committed to phasing out gas in the long run. We also spent some time talking about what's happening both on the outside of cars — Mercedes' classic look and its EV look aren't necessarily quite in the same place — and on the inside of them, as infotainment becomes a huge point of competition and design. Links: How Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Källenius is refocusing for an electric future - The Verge Mercedes-Benz opens its first 400kW EV charging station in the US - The Verge Mercedes-Benz is the first German automaker to adopt Tesla’s EV charging connector - The Verge Is the metaverse going to suck? A conversation with Matthew Ball - The Verge The Mercedes G-Wagen, the ultimate off-road status symbol, goes electric - The Verge Mercedes workers file federal charges with NLRB to stop union busting - The Alabama Political Reporter The MBUX Hyperscreen - Mercedes-Benz USA Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23904592 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about the brand-new TikTok ban — and how years of Congressional inaction on a federal privacy law helped lead us to this moment of apparent national panic about algorithmic social media. This is a thorny discussion, and to help break it all down, I invited Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner on the show. Lauren has been closely covering efforts to ban TikTok for years now, and she’s also watched Congress fail to pass meaningful privacy regulation for even longer. We’ll go over how we got here, what this means for both TikTok and efforts to pass new privacy legislation, and what might happen next. Links: Biden signs TikTok ‘ban’ bill into law — The Verge TikTok ban: all the news on attempts to ban the video platform — The Verge Anyone want to buy TikTok? — Vergecast Congress takes on TikTok, privacy, and AI — Vergecast Tiktok vows to fight 'unconstitutional' US ban — BBC ‘Thunder Run’: Behind lawmakers’ secretive push to pass the TikTok bill — NYT On TikTok, resignation and frustration after potential ban of app — NYT Lawmakers unveil new bipartisan digital privacy bill after years of impasse — The Verge A real privacy law? House lawmakers are optimistic this time — The Verge Congress is trying to stop discriminatory algorithms again — The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices