DangerMouth: The Innovation Station

A delicious appentiser not to be missed! This episode of Danger Mouth centres on a conversation with Olly Hawes, a portfolio artist, actor and writer whose work probes the limits of human connection and the points where society strains. It moves easily between the physical and the reflective, from Ollie’s account of being accidentally stabbed on stage during a production of Julius Caesar to a broader examination of craft, activism and the place of AI in artistic practice. At the core is a simple rule he lives by and teaches his children: look after yourself and look after other people. From that starting point the discussion opens out. Ollie describes the turning point that followed a near fatal incident in Edinburgh, an event that reshaped his life, led to marriage and fixed his commitment to storytelling. The group explores his instinct for working across opposites, arguing that tension rather than coherence often produces the most interesting art and the most effective solutions in business. They also examine the encroachment of AI into creative work. Ollie reflects on using a large language model to help secure Arts Council funding, while questioning what may be lost if technology begins to erode the presence and immediacy that give live performance its force. Running through it all is the practical reality of making a life in the arts. Money is uncertain, purpose is not. Ollie speaks plainly about the pressure to remain creatively alive, not just for himself but for the people who come after. It is a conversation that holds together injury and humour, principle and improvisation. At its centre is a working artist who has come close to the edge and decided to keep going, with intent.

This is an episode of the Danger Mouth podcast, hosted by Darrell Mann, Mike Conroy, and Shauna, featuring Swedish guest Per Lindstedt, co-author of The Value Model. The Value Model defines value as a ratio — satisfaction of customer needs divided by use of customer resources. Per breaks this into 6 strategic levers: three to increase satisfaction (solve an undiscovered problem, improve performance, enhance feelings/experience) and three to reduce resource consumption (time, money, effort). The iPhone is used throughout as the prime example of a product with a sky-high ratio — and the App Store as an accidental masterstroke that Jobs initially resisted. The conversation broadens into organisational innovation and S-curves: why companies near the peak of one S-curve become complacent, why very few (perhaps 10% in Europe) survive the jump to the next, and whether it's sometimes healthier to simply let companies die. Nokia's inability to abandon its Symbian OS is the cautionary tale; a Chinese manufacturer pivoting from bread-makers to LEDs in eight weeks is the counter-example. The final third focuses on Per's AI tool (built using Lovable), which takes messy requirement specifications and sorts them into five information domains — customers, needs, functions, solutions, and processes — flagging what's actually a customer need versus a disguised technical solution. This is positioned as a scalable version of the consultancy work Per spent decades doing manually.

This episode features Joe Pine (author of The Transformation Economy) in conversation with Darrell Mann, Mike Conroy, and Sharna Finnegan. The Transformation Economy Pine argues that economic value progresses through five stages, commodity, product, service, experience, and transformation, and that we're now at a tipping point where consumers want more than memorable experiences; they want meaningful and ultimately transformative ones. His new book, 25 years in the making, makes the case that this shift is now unmistakable. Key Concepts Guiding vs. delivering: You can't force transformation, you create the conditions for it. The economic function is to guide transformations, not manufacture them. The Hero's Journey: Pine uses this as a framework for transformation, replacing "ordeal" with crucible, a moment where change hangs in the balance. Encapsulation: Wrapping experiences with preparation, reflection, and integration. Pine considers this the single most accessible entry point for businesses, do this one thing and you'll automatically become more transformative. Human flourishing: The deeper purpose running through everything, health/wellbeing, wealth/prosperity, knowledge/wisdom, and purpose/meaning. Pine argues this, not profit, should be capitalism's raison d'être. Broader Themes "Customer experience" and "digital transformation" are bastardisations of deeper ideas, the former is really just good service; the latter often just means cutting headcount. Pine worries less about AI as Terminator and more about AI as Wall-E, eliminating struggle and therefore purpose. Meaning may be the defining consumer sensibility of the transformation economy, just as authenticity was for the experience economy. The conversation closes with strong alignment between Pine's framework and the themes in Darrell and Sharna's own book The 1%ers, particularly around human flourishing as a north star for doing new things.

In this episode, DangerMouth drifts closer to something interesting. The place where things almost fall apart but don't. Where a system holds itself right at the edge of tipping over, and that turns out to be exactly where it works best. There's a name for this. Self-organized criticality. It sounds technical but the idea is simple. Some systems don't need anyone to tune them. They tune themselves. They keep moving toward a point where they're just unstable enough to stay alive, just ordered enough not to collapse. Think of a sandpile. You keep adding grains, one at a time. Small slides happen. Occasionally a big one. Nobody decides when. The pile finds its own balance between holding together and letting go. That balance point sits at what people call the edge of chaos. Not chaos itself, but the narrow band right next to it. A place where order and disorder are in constant conversation. Where things are stable enough to have shape but loose enough to change. Ask yourself, if systems tune themselves toward this edge, what does that mean for the ones we think we're controlling? That feels like where DangerMouth is heading, at least for now. Type 2 fun when you look at it through the right lens. Not comfortable in the moment. Better in the telling.

In this episode of DangerMouth, hosts Darrell, Mike, and Sharna join author John Julius Reel to dissect the provocative strategies of Robert Greene’s 48 Laws of Power. The conversation traverses the thin line between tactical mastery and moral bankruptcy, comparing Greene’s "win-lose" Machiavellian world to the "win-win" principles of systematic innovation and Spiral Dynamics. Through raw personal anecdotes—ranging from high-stakes corporate turnarounds to heated outbursts in Spanish banks—the group explores whether these laws are a necessary toolkit for survival in "Orange" value systems or a "formula for unhappiness" that ignores the fundamental complexity of human nature.

In this episode we welcome special guest Daniel Friedman the President Active Inference Institute. Shana and Darrell smoothly switch up several intellectual gears as they engage with Daniel to explore the physics of transformation. Later on Mikey tries to illustrate the basics of the notoriously complex and nuanced FEP, using vague outlines while Daniels fills in the colours. Focused concentration is highly recommended. This conversation operates on multiple levels. https://www.activeinference.institute/ The Free Energy Principle Explained: Karl Friston’s Theory of How the Brain Works Daniel Friedman – Active Inference Institute | What is Active Inference?

In these turbulent times, humor may be the only glue strong enough to hold people together. It’s no joke. Mike and Darrell welcome Barbara Plester from the University of Auckland Business School, who has an eye for the unserious. Essential listening for trainee jesters.

Back in the heyday of British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, a very interesting experiment in management training took place. Darrell and I were among the guinea pigs. The lessons learned lasted a lifetime. A few years later, our guest today, Steve Thomas (http://www.grassroutes.co.uk/), a very wise, principled, and incredibly brave, visionary educator, resurrected this protocol and added the guardrails that were so gratuitously missing from the first instantiation. Three stories, complete with wisdom from Shana the Oracle.

Our guest is Anthony Lopez-Vito has kindly taken time out from running the Matrix to hang out with the gang! What Joy! You might find this fun as well: https://tinbin.com/

The team chat with Frank, its a classic. Frank Devine’s Cathedral Culture System turns leaders into architects of shared purpose—not bricklayers chasing quarterly targets. Discover how it operationalises Rapid Mass Engagement (RME) to create employee-owned high-performance cultures that fix themselves. We map its pillars—higher purpose, recognition, coaching, and feedback—against complexity principles like requisite variety and POSIWID. Does it deliver genuine autonomy, or just prettier top-down control? Perfect for leaders tired of engagement gimmicks THE BOOK THE WEBBY AUDIO SUMMARY

Darrell and Shana have written a book. Have a listen and see if it's your cup of tea. Mikey is playing Steve Barlett and interviewing the authours - Saints preserve us! Buy it On Amazon Find Out More

In this Danger Mouth episode, the team dissects "Meaning" via the ABCM model (Autonomy, Belonging, Competence, Meaning). Darrell defines meaning as the coherence between purpose, pattern, and participation. Personal drivers range from legacy and human connection to the joy of play. They analyze societal S-curves, arguing that crises require "Yellow" systemic thinkers to guide "Orange" executors. Ultimately, solving ethical contradictions and honoring human complexity are vital for navigating today’s global shifts.

Danger Mouth’s 2025 finale explores TRIZ systems thinking. Darrell breaks down the 6-element model (Engine, Tool, etc.) vital for functionality. The team discusses workplace complexity and using AI for perspective. Key insight: Success comes from solving contradictions and "Wow persistence."

Find the Gap! The DangerMouth team likes breaking things, (at least Mikey does). We love disruption. But boundaries and reality are a very good check on mindless vandalism. Our guest today Costas Papaikonomu, has many scars from trendy, bold, brazen and totally misguided disruption efforts and experienced the wretched consequences. He makes a compelling case for exploring the often over looked and incredibly fertile territory of the adjacent possible, and spells out the hard earned heuristics that enabled him to make many an omelette without breaking any eggs. He has even written a brilliant book about it The Disruption Fallacy

The team welcome back DangerMouth regular Jolly Contrarian Olly Buxton to ponder what goes wrong when the fuzzy trail of recent history is brutally cleaved with the sword of justice.

In this episode Darrell is squarely in his happy place as we welcome special guest, Conductor, Soprano and Academic Yajie Ye to discuss the conjunction of innovation and classical music and the skills needed to thrive and survive in time of rapid change. Find out more about Yajie Ye on her excellent website: https://www.yajieye.com/

In this episode we welcome special guest Rob Hygate, serial innovator and founder of eWATER a supplier of clean water systems in Africa. The conversation ranges from the genesis of his book "The Logical God: An AI Stewardship" the perennial difficulties of promoting good ideas that break with tradition and a great deal besides. References: eWATER The Logical God: An AI Stewardship Reid Hoffman on Block Chain

Its over 50 years since Robert Pirsig's book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAM) was published. ZAM is the story of Robert Pirsig's struggle with various paradoxes, a story with no tidy endings. In this era of omni-crisis the questions raised are more relevant than ever and hold clues for the innovator who wants to integrate Mythos and Logos and strive for Quality. This episode also references the sequel to ZAM, Lila a work just as profound, one well work seeking out by fans of ZAM. Following on from Darrell's Innovation Workshop based on Pirsig's work, in a second ZAM related episode, Darrell, Mikey and Shana bravely venture forth into the zone of abstract ideas.

In their forthcoming book "1%ers" Shana and Darrell argue that we humans need to restore the balance between science and the humanities to thrive in the age of AI. Step one in this process is to shake off the over reliance left brain reductionist thinking. This new mindset requires overcoming ingrained habits. This episode is a discussion about how to change your mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4s

This episode was triggered by the inciteful review/final chapter of the book Champion Thinking by Simon Mundie which appeared in the April Issue of the Systematic Innovation Ezine (issue 277). The theme of the book is that "success" in life, sport and innovation is held back by a series of common illusions/beliefs that need to be discarded. The Ezine is available here: https://si-shop.org.uk/free-downloads/

In this episode the team welcome special guest Andy Brunskill, who shares his insights of how Green World Innovation techniques can be effective in the Red World of continuous improvement. Find out more about Andy here: https://sapartners.com/team/bio-andy-brunskill/

Every minute organisations across the globe are becoming more tightly coupled. This exponentially increases the number of variables that might impact your plans, complexity balloons. instability in major nodes and the disruption of AI are tipping the world system into a chaotic state. Old heuristics that worked in high complexity contexts aren't suited to a chaotic environment. Leaders all over the world are painfully aware of the problem, but don't know who to turn to. Darrell's next book, FutureProof highlights a method of charting a way through the chaos, by providing direction of travel and advice on girding your team of immutable humans with the adaptability and resilience to survive the ordeal ahead.

In this episode we welcome special guest Hilarie Owen author of the Book "In Search of Leaders", published 25 years ago and still so startlingly relevant, that Darrell featured it as Book of the Month in his March E-Zine. There is a great deal of wisdom in this episode for those not addicted to the allure of simple answers to complex issues.

In 2020 by Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini published the book Humanocracy. Mike and Darrell discuss whether this is an important tool in the increasingly difficult task of aligning people engaged in a common endeavour.

In this episode Darrell, Shana and Mikey relate their experiences of being educated and consider ways in which the goals of the education system could be better aligned with ever changing requirements of todays society.

Misalignment between silos in an organisation is very common, very costly and a major reason why bold initiatives fail. In this episode Darrell, Shana and Mikey attempt to align themselves as they investigate whether the Theory of System Completeness will help them out.

A quote attributed to Mahatma Gandhi sums up the long road to Indian Independence in one sentence "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". If in order to win/innovate you have to endure years of being ostracised, mocked and attacked, its going to be a very tough time. In this episode the transatlantic trio examine the role of suffering in the innovation process, how it is important to have confidence that the goal is more than just a vanity project and that the timescale may be longer than you think.

Agatha Christie is quoted as saying: "I don't think necessity is the mother of invention. Invention, in my opinion, arises directly from idleness, possibly also from laziness — to save oneself trouble." In this episode Darrel, Mikey and Shana, chew over laziness in the context of innovation.

Jon Gower sometime author, presenter, raconteur, nature lover, journalist, historian, academic and professional Welshman joins us on this episode. Jons special talent is that he has never let his passions and curiosity be ring fenced and has the courage to follow paths that others would forsake. The Turning Tide: A Biography of the Irish Sea I Know an Island - RM Lockley Lundy, Fastnet, Irish Sea: Wales and its Coastal Waters

Harbinger of revolution or overblown hype AI, is casting a shadow of doubt over all projected futures and that's only the headliner. In this episode we discuss how to be swept along by the Coming Wave rather than obliterated by it. Its a time for bold moves, rejecting the allure of the safe and sensible and having the wisdom to take what today seems the crazy option, one that only makes sense with some very deep reflection or the blessing of hindsight. Darrell and Shana have helped others successfully take the leap of faith and have experienced first hand the sad fate of those who didn't, so who better to ask?

In this episode Darrell and Mikey are joined by Dr Avi and his AI Clone MobiAvi. Up for discussion are the loneliness of the long distance CEO, where best to leverage you efforts if you want to make the world a better place and the fascination experiences of a trailblazing experiment in sharing a digital version of yourself with the world. https://www.dravileadership.com/

This episode uses the physical and psychological challenges of solo long distance coastal adventuring as a framing device for examining innovation basics. Darrell steers, Shana sets the climate and as usual Mikey desperately treads water. https://www.mikeyhere.com/p/3-capital-kayak.html

Dangermouth strays into the danger zone and attempts to find a fresh take on deliberating the desireable outcome for the 2024 election. Darrell joins Shana on location in the USA for this episode. References The Third Way Podcast: Audrey Tand and Digital Citizen Assemblies A time of revolution Book: The Great Upheaval: America and the Birth of the Modern World, 1788–1800 Podcast: Yuval Levin on Burke, Paine, and the Great Debate

The rediscovery and painstaking restoration of Aristotle's Poetics revealed a lost method of literary theory, seeing literature as a progression of innovations. Wordmaster John Reel joins Darrell and Mikey to examine the "and" and "but" of the creative process. Wonderworks: Literary invention and the science of stories My Half Orange: A Story of Love and Language in Seville

Instinct is potentially a highly powerful creative tool, one that is largely shunned in western society as it is hard to define, tricky to measure and like AI no one really knows what is going on inside the box. Shana, Darrell and Mikey try to pin down the jello. Darrell thinks he has the answer, Mikey knows he has and Shana provides a grounding dose of reality. Links Instinct EZine The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World

Comedy is innovation in real time. Professor of Comedy Emma Holmes and Drama Queen Christine van Asselt give Darrell and Mikey lessons in laughter. It's a funny business! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hflp9tE0Iww https://www.linkedin.com/company/eeh-productions/about/

In this episode Darrell and Mikey are joined by special guest Steve Barbone, Professor of Philosophy at San Diego State University. Together we wrestle to get the right mix between romantic and classical, art and science, sense and nonsense as we tweak the carburettor of philosophy. Pure Quality. I wonder whether Robert Pirsig would have approved?

Paul Baxter approaches the world from his own unique perspective and has the showman's aptitude for storytelling. His homespun philosophy has produced startling innovations and enabled him to live life on his own terms. Mikey and Darrell relish the chance to converse with someone who Darrell refers to as a force of nature. ASK the BAXTER: How To Think Clearly and Answer Big Questions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugll6jrnOkA The Exponential Age: How Accelerating Technology Is Transforming Business, Politics and Society by Azeem Akbar

In 1997 the book ‘The Fourth Turning’ laid out a controversial theory that history is driven by a four phase generational cycle. This compelling theory has influenced a wide range of people from Al Gore to Steve Bannon. In this episode, our guest Janne Miettine, puts forward a strong case that cyclical hormone levels drive societal behaviour and are the mechanism behind the phase changes. Janne has the courage to go against the grain, and the determination and aptitude to sweat the details, the hallmarks of the pioneer that challenges the smug status quo. https://jannemiettinen.fi/FourthTurning/#htoc-1-3-cyclical-human-populations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory

Darrell and Mikey welcome John Gallacher, Director of Dementias Platform UK (DPUK), for a deeply satisfying conversation. John is driving a global movement to bring economies of scale to the acquisition and storage of quality data, and its distribution and use for public benefit. John embodies the foundational principles of a horizontal thinker; big picture long term thinking, spanning silos, wrestling with complex systems and leadership, to name but a few. More than that, he is an expert in the aesthetics of kayak design, so it's well worth a listen. Links: https://www.psych.ox.ac.uk/team/john-gallacher https://www.dementiasplatform.uk/

In a spookily prescient example, London Underground and a nesting plover conspire to derail this episode, but the show does go on. Darrell and an epically deranged Mikey are joined by Shana and Olly the Jolly to discuss how an understanding of complexity should alter the way you behave. I think we have unfinished business! Special thanks to Paul Wilkinson for knocking this verbal spaghetti into a wonderful Podcast.

Many people are so busy chasing their tails they can't see the way off the hamster wheel. That's where Electra comes in. Coming from the world of corporate law, where cross fertilization of ideas illuminates the way forward, Electra has the smarts and the people skills to make change happen. In this episode Electra shares her stories and Darrell finds many parallel with his heroes journey.

Mikey and Darrell welcome word wizard, educator and intellectual John Reel, the New Yorker in Seville. We discuss how it takes a hero to make a breakthrough journey and have the audacity to create a work of art when the mountain of history is fiercely guarded by the reputations of giants. And much, much more. My Half Orange: A Story of Love and Language in Seville https://amzn.eu/d/gWeTjFS https://johnjuliusreel.com/ Remembrance of Things Past: Volume 1 (PENGUIN CLASSICS) https://amzn.eu/d/3vWlwNd Ulysses (Wordsworth Classics) https://amzn.eu/d/0EeddBR The Prodigal Son, by George Balanchine, with Mijaíl Barýshnikov The performance is about 40 minutes long, but it’s broken up into four parts. Part 1: https://youtu.be/T-TUCK3scdc?si=W7yQJtBVDFB3Ccmi Part 2: https://youtu.be/RAzcsAIP8Hg?si=PMp_QlcVpKwGrpHB Part 3: https://youtu.be/Hn5xzJzVgos?si=nCmkOce4bTaXZylv Part 4: https://youtu.be/VkN4lNDlKG8?si=cmZbeijYqMhynu2J

Mikey tries to reveal the team's inner mindscape. Darrell relates it to innovation and Shana is in her happy place. Mikey reveals how he came to get stuck in a tree. Thinking Fast and Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow How to Know a Person https://youtu.be/YwENbKn3tqI?si=fEvNFKSGlVLFffxp

Special guest Olly Buxton (A.K.A. "The Jolly Contrarian") leads Mikey and Darrell through the ossified entrails of the Legal Establishment in our first outing into its echoing dusty halls. The Law is an edifice so vast, so powerful and so ancient that waves of changes bounce ineffectually off its granite walls. Even granite does not last forever. Rest assured that despite the dark tones of formality, we remain steadfastly jolly throughout. Olly is as well read as Darrell (i.e. off the scale) and is an excellent font of future enlightening tomes. Refs: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Seeing_Like_a_State James C Scott's Seeing Like a State https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Systemantics:_The_Systems_Bible John Gall’s Systemantics: the Systems Bible which is absolutely hilarious https://pluralistic.net/2023/02/09/ai-monkeys-paw/ Cory Doctorow on Generative AI and copyright https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities Jane Jacobs on modernism Rory Sutherland on Eurostar https://youtu.be/iueVZJVEmEs?t=373 Rory Sutherland's excellent book https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Alchemy:_The_Surprising_Power_of_Ideas_that_Don%E2%80%99t_Make_Sense

This is the first episode where we delve into Darrell's 6 Pillars of Innovation Wisdom, focusing on Complex Systems. We look at the 6 elements of a simple basic complete system before adding complexity into the mix. We discuss the importance of leaders understanding their organisation as a system and how there is always a delta between the official hierarchy where accountability lies and the shadow hierarchy where the power lies.

Entrophy, authenticity, diversity vs expediency, lettuce vs leader. In which Darrell tries to stop a closed system from becoming more random. How do you think that went? You be the judge? Dame Dash Kochland Lizz Vs Lecttuce

Back in 2023 I crash landed my kayak onto Great Blasket Island, perched out on the far-flung edge of Western Europe. Luckily for me I was swept up by Emily "The Caretaker". Darrell and I chat to Emily and Dan about what they learned and how they see the future. Daily Mail Daily Mirror TV Show Certified: Contradiction Free (He He)