Chatter

A sunken Soviet submarine. A secret CIA plan to lift it from the bottom of the ocean with a giant claw. And reclusive billionaire Howard Hughes. It sounds like the makings of a Netflix series--and it should be. But the story of the Glomar Explorer is the stuff of fact, even if it has long been shrouded in secrecy.  In his new book, intelligence historian M. Todd Bennett pierces the veil surrounding this most improbable of intelligence operations and surfaces a riveting tale of underwater espionage and high-stakes foreign policy. The sub-salvage mission, which the CIA codenamed AZORIAN, was greenlit at a time of remarkable daring and ingenuity by the spy agency, which enjoyed only minimal oversight from Congress. But journalists brought the Glomar operation to light in another era, when scandals and excesses led lawmakers to reign in the intelligence community.  Shane Harris talks with Bennett about his book, Neither Confirm nor Deny: How the Glomar Mission Shielded the CIA from Transparency, which shows how the exposure of the secret program led to a public backlash against disclosures of classified information and helped reenforce the culture of secrecy that envelops the CIA’s work. The phrase “neither confirm nor deny,” which Bennett tells Harris has become a kind of coy cliche, originates from attempts to uncover the facts of the Glomar mission. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works mentioned during this episode:Bennett’s book, Neither Confirm nor Deny: http://cup.columbia.edu/book/neither-confirm-nor-deny/9780231193474 The Foreign Relations of the United States Series. A volume that Bennett edited includes declassified records documenting the Glomar incident. https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/about-frus Bennett’s bio and other writing: https://history.ecu.edu/m-todd-bennett/ Bennett on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mtoddbennett?lang=en Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Yaya Fanusie has explored his analytic side and his creative side throughout his life and multifaceted career. Comic book writer and illustrator in junior high. International economics in graduate school. Author of nonfiction and fiction. Work at the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Counterrorism Center fighting corruption and terrorism. Sound designer. Nonprofit expert on financial intelligence and cryptocurrencies. And now producer, writer, and voice talent of the audio spy thriller called The Jabbari Lincoln Files.David Priess spoke with Fanusie about his path to the CIA and NCTC, what analytic work on international economics and financial intelligence is like, the unique environment at NCTC, his departure from the intelligence community, the fundamentals of cryptocurrency and bitcoin, the national security risks around cryptocurrencies, the U.S. government's coverage of those risks, the experience of fictionalizing financial intelligence, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works mentioned during this episode:The movie PhiladelphiaThe podcast spy thriller The Jabbari Lincoln FilesThe book The Bone Collector by Jeffery Deaver Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For almost 25 years, until his death in November 2018, former president George H. W. Bush's chief of staff was Jean Becker. For event after event through both the best of those times and the worst--from dozens of affirming trips overseas to several parachute jumps in his latter years to many funerals--Becker was there to schedule it, plan it, manage it, and often attend it. All of this has given her a uniquely wide and deep understanding of the challenges and rewards of a long post-presidency.For the 30th anniversary of Bush 41's departure from the White House, David Priess chatted with Becker about how she first came to work with First Lady Barbara Bush, how that led to her work as chief of staff for Bush after he'd left office, the diverse activities of a lengthy post-presidency, former presidents' interactions with intelligence and classified material, Bush 41's choice to refrain from frequent political statements, his relationships with other presidents ranging from his son to Bill Clinton to Barack Obama to Joe Biden, and what a chief of staff for a former president actually does.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works mentioned during this episode:The book The Man I Knew: The Amazing Story of George H. W. Bush's Post-Presidency by Jean BeckerThe book The President's Club by Nancy Gibbs and Michael DuffyThe book 41 by George W. BushThe book Pearls of Wisdom by Barbara BushThe book The Nazi Conspiracy by Brad Meltzer and Josh MenschThe TV series Ted Lasso Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In 2001, the FBI arrested a top U.S. intelligence officer who had spied for Cuba for nearly two decades. The story of Ana Montes, whose colleagues called her “The Queen of Cuba,” has all the hallmarks of an espionage thriller. She was among the most damaging spies of her generation, and yet her story remains lesser known than more notorious Cold War-era turncoats. In his new book, journalist Jim Popkin tells the story of Montes’ radicalization, her recruitment by Cuban intelligence, and how she managed to spy so long undetected. Montes was released from prison earlier this month, after serving a lengthy prison sentence. New details of her story have come to light in Poplin’s book, Code Name Blue Wren: The True Story of America's Most Dangerous Female Spy—and the Sister She Betrayed. Popkin sat down with Shane Harris to talk about Montes’ story, what drove her to become a spy, and the investigation that brought her to justice.  Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was engineered by Ian Enright and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works cited in this episode are:Popkin’s book: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/code-name-blue-wren-jim-popkin?variant=40333137838114 Popkin’s feature on Montes in The Washington Post magazine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp/2013/04/18/ana-montes-did-much-harm-spying-for-cuba-chances-are-you-havent-heard-of-her/ Popkin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JimPopkin?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Abigail Spanberger, who represents Virginia's 7th congressional district in the House of Representatives, is one of the few members of Congress to have served as an operations officer at the Central Intelligence Agency. She also worked in law enforcement as an officer of the U.S. Postal Inspection Service. Not typical experiences for a thrice-elected politician--but useful for the role she finds herself in now.David Priess chatted with Rep. Spanberger about her recent re-election to the House, the nature of "swing districts," working across the aisle, her road to working at CIA, her experiences as a postal inspector and intelligence operations officer, what she sees as important national security issues right now, her advice for former colleagues considering a run for elective office, and how listening skills she learned at CIA have helped her as a representative.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, we're taking time off for the holidays - so we reached into the Chatter archives for one of our favorite shows from the last year. In this episode, Shane Harris sits down with veteran journalist Leslie Kean, who has done groundbreaking and widely admired reporting on unidentified flying objects. And, no, that does not mean aliens. Kean's bestselling 2010 book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record, was a sober account of credible, first-hand witnesses to unexplained aerial phenomena. In 2017, Kean co-authored a major New York Times article that revealed a secret Pentagon effort devoted to the study of UFOs. More recently, the U.S. government has begun to standardize UFO reporting by military personnel and has declassified more information about what it knows about strange objects in the sky. Kean's reporting played a significant role in those disclosures. Kean discusses her early career as a journalist, her travels in Burma, and her interest in Buddhism. She talks about the important questions that remain about UFOs, and what the U.S. government may be on the cusp of answering.  Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works cited in this episode are:Leslie Kean's website: https://www.lesliekean.com/ UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/114166/leslie-kean/ "Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious U.F.O. Program:" https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html "Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena" (Office of the Director of National Intelligence): https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Prelimary-Assessment-UAP-20210625.pdf  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Donald Trump is trying to do something rare--very rare--in American history: lose a presidential election, run again, and get elected to a second term. Only one president, the underappreciated Grover Cleveland, has ever accomplished that feat. Yet his story remains largely unknown.David Priess invited Troy Senik, author of a new biography of Grover Cleveland called A Man of Iron: The Turbulent Life and Improbable Presidency of Grover Cleveland, to Chatter to explore how the stories of rejected presidents in the past shed light on Trump's effort to retake the Oval Office now--with a whole lotta Grover in the conversation.They discussed how we rate U.S. leaders, the cases of presidents who lost their reelection bids and then tried again, what drove those men to do so, Grover Cleveland's formative experiences, his political offices in New York, how he became president, his predilection for vetoes, his loss in 1888, his comeback in 1892, why Cleveland is largely forgotten, how our views of presidents change over time, how Cleveland's effort in 1892 to regain the presidency compares to Trump's attempt now, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book Grover Cleveland, Again! by Ken BurnsThe book A Man of Iron: The Turbulent Life and Improbable Presidency of Grover Cleveland by Troy SenikThe book Grover Cleveland: A Study in Courage by Allen NevinsThe book James Monroe by Tim McGrathThe book The Number Ones by Tom Briehan Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ronald Reagan stands among the most consequential national security presidents in United States history, not least of which because his policies helped to end the Cold War without a direct war between the superpowers. Reagan's vision for ending the Cold War evolved during his presidency, but followed clear principles he brought with him to the office.Will Inboden, a historian and former policymaker who leads the Clements Center for National Security at the University of Texas at Austin, has written a new survey of the 40th president's national security policies, The Peacemaker: Ronald Reagan, the Cold War, and the World on the Brink. In it, he uses newly declassified documents and policymaker interviews to give an informative and insightful reassessment of the formation, development, execution, and impact of Reagan's foreign policy.In this discussion, David Priess and Inboden touch on the challenges of conducting research on decades-old administrations, the National Security Council process under different presidents, Reagan's influence on an entire generation, the origins of Reagan's national security views, the impact of the 1981 assassination attempt, the nature and influence of Reagan's faith, his evolving relationship with Soviet leaders, the Reykjavik summit, how close the US and USSR came to agreeing to eliminate nuclear weapons, Reagan's legacy beyond the Cold War, what Will would ask Reagan if he had the chance to do so, how Reagan might view the United States today, why Reagan is hard to capture onscreen, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book The Peacemaker: Ronald Reagan, the Cold War, and the World on the Brink by William InbodenThe book Reagan's War Stories by Benjamin GriffinThe book Rawhide Down by Del Quentin WilberThe book Reagan at Reykjavik by Kenneth Adelman"Democracy's Next Battle," Ronald Reagan's address to the Oxford Union Society (December 4, 1992)The film Lincoln Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Longtime Russia watcher Andrew Weiss took an unconventional approach to his new biography, Accidental Czar: The Life and Lies of Vladimir Putin. Teaming up with illustrator Box Brown, Weiss wrote a graphic novel that tells the story of Putin’s rise from an impoverished childhood in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) to the undisputed authoritarian ruler of Russia. A big theme of the book is how Putin imagined an idea of himself as a strongman through spy movies and pulp novels that he devoured as a young person. The graphic novel seems a particularly fitting format for exploring Putin, who has successfully cultivated a caricature of himself in the West as a cunning, sophisticated, hyper-masculine leader. But, as Weiss writes, “seeing Putin as he wants us to see him, rather than as he is,” makes it harder to confront the challenge Russia poses to Western interests and security in Europe. Shane Harris talked to Weiss about his own childhood in California and why he was drawn at an early age to studying Russia. Weiss previously served as director for Russian, Ukrainian, and Eurasian Affairs on the National Security Council staff, as a member of the State Department’s Policy Planning Staff, and as a policy assistant in the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy during the administrations of Presidents Bill Clinton and George H. W. Bush. He’s now the James Family Chair and vice president for studies at the Carnegie Endowment, where he oversees research on Russia and Eurasia. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:Andrew Weiss’ graphic novel on Putin: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250760753/accidentalczar Weiss’ bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/experts/824 Weiss on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrewsweiss?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor Illustrator Brian “Box” Brown: https://www.boxbrown.com/ Other graphic novels that inspired Weiss:Maus by Art Spiegelman: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/171065/the-complete-maus-by-art-spiegelman/  On Tyranny Graphic Edition by Timothy Snyder, Illustrated by Nora Krug https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/653012/on-tyranny-graphic-edition-by-timothy-snyder-illustrated-by-nora-krug/Movies and TV shows discussed in this episode: The Shield and the Sword: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0166790/ Seventeen Moments of Spring: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069628/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Plagues periodically exact a heavy toll on human life--and much more. They devastate economies, exacerbate social disorder, shock governance systems, provide fodder for political violence, and interact in surprising ways with terrorism.In this conversation, David Priess and longtime RAND Corporation terrorism expert Brian Michael Jenkins talk about the long nature of pandemics, the history of public resistance to efforts to protect public health, links between plagues and social unrest, how the concept of comorbidity applies to the effects of pandemics, the relationship between plagues and political violence, the challenges of rumors and rapid communication, the threat of biological terrorism, and pragmatic ways to counter domestic political violence.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book Plagues and Their Aftermath by Brian Michael JenkinsThe short story "The Stolen Bacillus" by H.G. WellsBrian Michael Jenkins's article, "Elements of a Pragmatic Strategy to Counter Domestic Political Violence," in the CTC Sentinel (October 2022)The book The True Believer by Eric HofferThe book The Man Who Was Thursday by G.K. Chesterton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's been just longer than one year since Shane Harris and David Priess embarked on a voyage of new adventures aboard the S.S. Chatter, seeking out creative conversations on the distant shores of the national security ocean.And what a journey it's been.To date, they've hosted more than 50 long-form conversations on topics from spy novels to Olympic security, from surveillance-related art to assassins' poisons, from 9/11 memorialization to ethical space exploration. The only thing more intriguing to Shane and David than the sheer diversity of topics so far has been the experience of digging deep with such a variety of amazing, creative people.They are, to put it simply, thankful for the opportunity to have hosted such rich exchanges and to share them with so many listeners.In this episode, Shane and David review the origin story of the podcast, reflect on some of the conversations on Chatter that stand out to them most many months later, give specific shout outs to several of each other's hosted episodes, subject each other to the random curiosity of the "Chatter Box," and preview a few forthcoming discussions to be featured in episodes yet unreleased. The unifying purpose behind it all? To give thanks to everyone involved in this experiment, from the intrepid Cara Shillenn and her wonderful colleagues at Goat Rodeo, to the team at Lawfare, the podcast's fascinating guests and its faithful listeners.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode: A healthy subset of the past year's conversations on Chatter Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Satellites have held a special place in military planning and in spy fiction alike for more than half a century. Both domains ended up devoting much attention to satellite-based weapons and anti-satellite weaponry; both have also dealt with the problem of space debris related to the latter. In this chat, David Priess and George Washington University historian Aaron Bateman talk about Bateman's early interest in satellites, early satellite technology and attempts at anti-satellite activity, the Outer Space Treaty and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, actions by presidents from Eisenhower through Biden related to the testing of satellite and/or anti-satellite weapons, the Strategic Defense Initiative (commonly called the "Star Wars program"), the problem of space debris, the Kessler Syndrome, other countries' satellite and anti-satellite activities, the Space Force, and on-screen portrayals of satellite warfare and space debris from the James Bond movies to Gravity.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book The Hunt for Red October by Tom ClancyAaron Bateman's article, "Anti-Satellite Weapons Are Creating Space Hazards. Here's a Way To Limit the Damage," in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists (January 21, 2022)The film You Only Live TwiceThe film MoonrakerThe film GoldenEyeThe film GravityThe Star Wars franchise Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Modern presidents both influence and are influenced by books, movies, and television; with no commander in chief is that more clear than with Ronald Reagan. Dr. Benjamin Griffin, chief of the Military History Division at the United States Military Academy, has researched and written the definitive book about the 40th president's interactions with Tom Clancy and other authors, Hollywood films, and other pop culture: Reagan's War Stories: A Cold War Presidency.In this chat, David Priess and Griffin discuss Tom Clancy's influence on an entire generation, how books with clear moral narratives informed Reagan's childhood, the influence of Whittaker Chambers on Reagan's iconic "A Time for Choosing" speech in 1964, the rich relationship between Reagan and Clancy, the outsized impact of Clancy's first two books, and the complicated notion of presidential "vision."Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book The Hunt for Red October by Tom ClancyThe book The Third Word War by Sir John HackettThe book Red Storm Rising by Tom ClancyThe book Subregional Security Cooperation in the Third World by William TowThe book That Printer of Udell's by Harold Bell WrightThe film High NoonThe John Carter of Mars books by Edgar Rice BurroughsThe book Witness by Whittaker ChambersThe book Darkness at Noon by Arthur KoestlerThe book The Bourne Identity by Robert LudlumThe film All the President's MenThe film Apocalypse NowThe film The Deer HunterThe film PattonThe film Back to the FutureThe TV movie The Day AfterThe movie The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951)The book Euromissiles by Susan ColbournThe book The City We Became by N. K. Jemisin Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Although codemaking and codebreaking often receive less attention in the public imagination than swashbuckling HUMINT operations and ingenious spy gadgets, they have changed history. The under-appreciation of cryptography might stem from a combination of the complexity of encryption, the classified nature of much of its technology, and the difficulty of conveying codebreaking effectively in pop culture. David Priess spoke with Vince Houghton about the realities and fictional representations of cryptography, as well as the challenges and rewards of making a compelling museum experience out of U.S. codemaking and codebreaking efforts. Houghton is director of the National Cryptologic Museum, the open-to-the-public museum of the National Security Agency. They talked while walking through the newly redesigned museum in Annapolis Junction, Maryland, highlighting various artifacts including early American codebreaking computers, German Enigma machines, the oldest known book of cryptography (from the 16th century), and code generators for U.S. nuclear weapons. They discussed the provenance of highly unusual items and the value of having so many of them on display. And they traded views on movies incorporating ciphers or codes, from The Da Vinci Code to Sneakers to The Empire Strikes Back to The Imitation Game.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The film The Imitation GameThe film The Da Vinci CodeThe TV show AndorThe film Rogue OneThe film The Empire Strikes BackThe film Sneakers Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Andrew Kirsch didn’t grow up watching James Bond movies and dreaming of becoming a spy. Like many Canadians, he was barely aware his country had an intelligence service. But when terrorists attacked not far from his office in London, where he was working in the financial services industry, Kirsch decided to apply for a job with CSIS--not the think tank, but the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.Kirsch chronicles his decade as a spy for Canada in his memoir, I Was Never Here: My True Canadian Spy Story of Coffees, Code Names, and Covert Operations in the Age of Terrorism. It’s a light-hearted but often suspenseful account of his work in offices as well as in the field.Kirsch and Shane Harris discussed what CSIS is and what it does--it’s not quite the Canadian version of the CIA--how he made it through recruitment and training, and the work he ultimately did breaking into cars and mapping out terrorist networks.Kirsch’s memoir appears to be the first by a former CSIS officer, which presented a novel dilemma when he wanted to get his manuscript cleared: There was no one to say yes or no. Kirsch says he joked that his second book might be written from prison - but so far, Canadian authorities haven’t come looking for him.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Ian Enright. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:Andrew Kirsch’s book: https://pagetwo.com/book/i-was-never-here/Kirsch on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/as_kirschMore on CSIS: https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service.html Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Olivia Troye has worked in the Republican National Committee, the Pentagon, the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad, the National Counterterrorism Center, and the Department of Homeland Security. But it was her role on the small team directly supporting Vice President Mike Pence that brought her the most challenging experiences of her career while making her all too aware of the surprisingly thin staffing for the next in line to the presidency.David Priess spoke to Troye about her path from El Paso to Philadelphia to Washington, her experience on Capitol Hill on 9/11, serving in Baghdad after the U.S. invasion, working at the National Counterterrorism Center and the Department of Homeland Security, differences between core National Security Council staff and the support staff for the vice president, the many different tasks that support to a vice president entails, Mike Pence as a customer of the President's Daily Brief, the value of civil service professionals, the ups and downs of working with Pence during the COVID-19 pandemic, the inappropriate handling of classified material she saw during her final years on the job, the ethical reasons spurring her to leave government service, the importance of reasonable gun control, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The TV show HomelandThe TV show Veep Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The American Revolution was fought not only over taxation and representation, but also information. Foreign news, received inconsistently and reprinted according to newspaper editors' biases and misperceptions, helped define the boundaries of early American politics and ultimately spurred colonists to rise up against the British authorities. Digging deep into the horribly flawed media environment from the mid 1700s to the birth of the nation, and then through the first post-revolutionary generation, reveals much about why events played out as they did.To explore these dynamics, David Priess hosted historian Jordan Taylor--author of the new book Misinformation Nation: Foreign News and the Politics of Truth in Revolutionary America. They covered the persistence of misinformation and claims of "fake news," the origins and severe limits of newspapers in colonial America, the trans-Atlantic communication system, the importance of information and its pathologies during the revolution, Patriots' misperceptions of British politics and society, the French Revolution's portrayal in various American media, information mediation as an elite phenomenon, the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Illuminati scare of 1798-99, lessons of the early American experience for today, how to avoid pessimism in an era of misinformation, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book Misinformation Nation: Foreign News and the Politics of Truth in Revolutionary America by Jordan TaylorThe play HamiltonThe published works of Mike Caulfield Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Darrell Blocker retired from the Central Intelligence Agency in 2018 after serving as an operations officer and manager in many countries, especially within Africa. His self-described lack of success recruiting assets during early assignments nevertheless taught him important lessons about the intelligence business, about how people work, and about himself; later tours of duty gave him the chance to make up for lost time by excelling at the job while also getting shot at and even gaining minor fame as the lead singer in an African jazz band. Blocker left CIA service as one of the most senior black officers in the Agency's history--and he was reportedly on President Biden's shortlist to become the Director of the CIA. Now, he's involved in several creative projects in Hollywood.David Priess chatted with Blocker about his career and his activities since retirement. They discussed getting spy stories told on film, growing up as an Air Force brat, understanding the pledge of allegiance, stumbling early in an intelligence career, appreciating the operational environment in Africa, growing from mistakes, accepting lessons from 360-degree feedback, performing on stage in a jazz band, singing the national anthem, being considered as a CIA director, enhancing the CIA's interactions with the media, learning about the benefits of fictional representations of Hollywood's take on intelligence, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The TV series CondorThe TV series HomelandThe Pledge of AllegianceThe Star-Spangled Banner Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every year, the eastern United States faces the prospect--and, too often, the reality--of major hurricanes that cause extensive physical and financial damage. This year is no exception; even as Hurricane Ian approaches the Gulf Coast, more storms are likely in the coming weeks.David Priess chatted with author Eric Jay Dolin about the history of Atlantic hurricanes, with a special focus on such storms' influence on U.S. national security. They spoke about the devastating 2017 hurricane season, how tropical systems are covered in the media, Ben Franklin's role in hurricane science, the role of Caribbean hurricanes in the American Revolution and the Spanish-American War, the evolution of the federal government's storm forecasting and crisis response efforts, hurricane hunter flights, attempts to use technology to disrupt massive storms, Hurricane Andrew (1992), the effects of climate change on tropical systems and their impact, viewing hurricanes as national security threats, how humans assess risk, and films about hurricanes.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book A Furious Sky by Eric Jay DolinOther books by Eric Jay DolinThe film The Day After TomorrowThe film The Perfect StormThe film Violent Earth: New England's Killer Hurricane of 1938The film Titanic Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In her day, Josephine Baker was one of the most famous women in the world. Fans recognized the superstar singer, actress, and dancer everywhere she went, particularly on the streets of Paris, where she often walked a pet cheetah on a diamond leash. Why would anyone think such a conspicuous person might make the perfect spy? Author Damien Lewis set out to answer that question in his latest book, “Agent Josephine: American Beauty, French Hero, British Spy.” It chronicles Baker’s remarkable career as an agent for French counterintelligence during WWII. Baker participated in numerous clandestine missions, and her work informed British and U.S. intelligence as well. Baker left the United States in the Jim Crow era and was embraced by French audiences. But she became a target of Nazi propagandists. When Germany invaded France, Baker devoted herself to the Resistance and the Allies’ cause. It turned out that her performing talents were well suited to work as an intelligence agent. Baker used her connections to get close to Axis VIPs, including in the Italian government, who didn’t know she was passing valuable details from their conversations back to her French compatriots. She used her extraordinary fame as a cover, at times hiding secret documents practically in plain sight while on tour. Lewis and Shane Harris discussed Baker’s remarkable and little known espionage career, which reveals much about the inner life of one of the 20th Century’s biggest stars. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works mentioned in this episode:Damien Lewis’ book, “Agent Josephine:” https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/damien-lewis/agent-josephine/9781541700666/ Lewis’ other books” https://damienlewis.com/books/ Lewis on Twitter: https://twitter.com/authordlewis Baker and Lewis in The New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/15/josephine-baker-was-the-star-france-wanted-and-the-spy-it-needed-damien-lewis-agent-josephine Baker inducted into the Pantheon: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/30/1059776777/josephine-baker-france-pantheon  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Of all of the Central Intelligence Agency's activities, paramilitary operations might remain the least understood. This, in part, is both a cause and a consequence of inaccurate portrayals of such work in prominent movies; it's also because fewer memoirs come from the CIA's Special Activities Division than from traditional human intelligence collectors and from analysts. David Priess chatted with former CIA officer Ric Prado about the fiction and the reality of CIA paramilitary operations, including stories Ric tells in his book Black Ops: The Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior. They spoke about what Hollywood gets wrong about intelligence work, Ric's escape as a child from Castro's Cuba, his path to a CIA career, differences between paramilitary operations and intelligence collection, his years of work with the Contras in Central America, the Counterterrorist Center (CTC) at CIA before and on 9/11, the work ethic in CTC after 9/11, why his book has substantial chunks of redacted text, and who he thinks played the best James Bond.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by David Priess with Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with additional editing by Cara Shillenn. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book Black Ops: The Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior by Ric PradoThe film ArgoThe film Three Days of the CondorThe Jason Bourne filmsThe film True LiesThe Mission Impossible filmsThe James Bond films Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You don't have to look very far under the surface of the average game in the National Football League to find cloak-and-dagger machinations worthy of governmental intelligence agencies. During the past several decades, teams have used both myriad spying tactics to gain extra advantages and extensive counterintelligence techniques to thwart them. The line between traditional espionage and NFL methods is surprisingly thin.David Priess chatted with author Kevin Bryant about historical and present-day examples of it all, building on Kevin's new book Spies on the Sidelines: The High-Stakes World of NFL Espionage. They discussed known cases of spying before and during the draft, extraordinary means of collecting information about opposing teams' practices and playbooks, common countermeasures of security officers employed by various teams, attempts to intercept signals and play calls, electronic interference with headset communications, locker room spies, evolving league rules about dirty tricks, and the ethics of it all. And, of course, a conversation about covert action in the NFL wouldn't be complete without attention to the recent twin scandals involving the New England Patriots, Spygate and Deflategate.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by David Priess, with editing by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, we take our listeners back to November 18, 2021, when we were just starting Chatter, to bring back one of our very special episodes.David Priess's guest that day was former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence (PDDNI) and longtime intelligence officer Sue Gordon, who shared stories about her experiences in team sports, lessons on leadership, her role in creating the CIA’s non-profit venture capital firm (In-Q-Tel), what it was like interviewing with Donald Trump for the PDDNI job, and more.Enjoy this archive episode, and we will return next week with an all new conversation.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

NASA next week plans to launch the first of several Artemis missions, which collectively aim to land astronauts on the Moon again for the first time in more than half a century, explore the lunar surface more extensively, and establish a long-term presence on the Moon. Controversy lingers over both the launch system selected for these missions and the next step of human spaceflight to Mars.David Priess spoke with science journalist Fraser Cain, publisher of Universe Today and co-host of Astronomy Cast, about why exploring the Moon matters, what to expect from the launch and voyage of Artemis-I, and the challenges of missions to Mars. They also chatted about international space competition vs. cooperation during the Cold War and now, NASA's rollout of initial images from the James Webb Space Telescope, space-based threats ranging from gamma ray bursts and rogue black holes to near-Earth objects and coronal mass ejections, Cain's evolution in communicating science both online and through podcasts, the downward spiral of engaging conspiracy theorists, frustrations with popular culture's association of unidentified aerial phenomena with "aliens," and the interaction of science fiction and real-world space exploration.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The book The Martian by Andy WeirThe movie The MartianThe movie Don't Look UpThe Alien film franchiseThe movie AvatarThe book Death by Black Hole by Neil deGrasse TysonThe book Death from the Skies by Phil PlaitThe podcast The Skeptics Guide to the UniverseThe TV show For All MankindThe Foundation book series by Issac Asimov Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Gone with the Wind--the top-grossing movie of all time, adjusted for inflation--remains an iconic influence in American culture, despite its deeply troubling portrayal of social and political dynamics in the South during and after the Civil War. The continued popularity of the film points to a need to examine its influence on nearly a century's worth of American race relations, fascistic movements, and denialism in the United States. And why did Adolf Hitler reportedly love it so much?David Priess spoke with cultural and literary historian Sarah Churchwell of the University of London, author of The Wrath To Come, a book that dives deeply into the film, how it reflects a mythologized "Lost Cause" version of the Old South, and its connection with today's increasing political violence. They discuss the popularity of the movie, its differences from the book it was based on, some of the challenges for filmmaker David O. Selznick and for the film's actors, the "Lost Cause" theme that the movie conveys, its intersection with fascist thinking in America and with modern racism, why it attracted Adolf Hitler and other Nazi leaders, its links to various iterations of the Klan and "America First" campaigns, and how even disturbing movies like this can spur social progress.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The movie Gone with the WindThe book Gone with the Wind by Margaret MitchellThe book The Wrath To Come: Gone with the Wind and the Lies America Tells by Sarah ChurchwellThe article "Agglutination Test for Americanos" by Leslie L. Jones, The Smart Set magazine, May-Aug 1922.The book Behold, America: The Entangled History of "America First" and "the American Dream" by Sarah Churchwell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mary Louise Kelly is one of the most recognizable voices in American journalism. A co-host of NPR’s flagship program “All Things Considered,” she has spent years interviewing top newsmakers and traveling the world to chronicle stories about national security and foreign policy. And on top of all that, she’s a novelist. Kelly has written two books that incorporate many of her own experiences covering corridors of intelligence and international intrigue. This week, Kelly talked to Shane Harris about how she got her start, where her travels have taken her, and how journalism has proven to be a rich source of material for her fiction. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works discussed in this episode:Mary Louise Kelly’s bio: https://www.npr.org/people/2780701/mary-louise-kelly Kelly’s books, Anonymous Sources and The Bullet: https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Mary-Louise-Kelly/408483298 Kelly’s website: https://marylouisekellybooks.com/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Climate change and its effects are increasingly recognized as important subjects of national security research and analysis. Few issues of international political economy or international security avoid some intersection with warming global temperatures, evolving environments for human habitation, and/or changing geography.Erin Sikorsky has been studying these and related issues for decades, first within the US Intelligence Community and now at the Center for Climate and Security. David Priess had a wide ranging conversation with Erin about her career in government and beyond, how intelligence officers look at climate, a method of categorizing climate risk, how NATO is tackling climate-related issues, the missed opportunity to emphasize renewables over fossil fuels after Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine, the Climate Security Advisory Group, increasingly bipartisan support for climate security action, the roles of the public and Hollywood in addressing climate change, how various movies and books have examined these issues, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works discussed in this episode:Erin Sikorsky's page at the Center for Climate and Security The Chatter podcast episode Arctic Security and Cooperation with Marisol Maddox"Summer Heatwave Underscores Importance of NATO's Climate Security Focus," Center for Climate and Security website, July 21, 2022, by Erin Sikorsky"Climate Security Next Steps for the U.S. Government," Lawfare, May 6, 2022, by John Conger and Erin SikorskyThe movie AvatarThe movie InterstellarThe movie The Day After TomorrowThe movie Don't Look UpThe book The Ministry of the Future by Kim Stanley RobinsonThe book trilogy The Broken Earth by N. K. JemisinThe book Under a White Sky: The Nature of the Future by Elizabeth KolbertThe report Groundswell, Part 2: Acting on Internal Climate Migration, by the World BankJohn Conger's page at the Center for Climate and Security Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Fake news has been around for thousands of years in different forms that have changed with media technology, and there's little doubt that it's here to stay. For reasons ranging from human biases to financial incentives to the need for speed, it remains a hard problem. Cindy Otis, who worked for about 10 years at the Central Intelligence Agency as an analyst and a manager, now writes about fake news and related matters in articles and books--including True or False: A CIA Analyst's Guide to Spotting Fake News, which she targeted at a Young Adult audience. She balances a deep understanding of the challenges of fake news with a deep commitment to providing practical guidance for dealing with it.David Priess spoke with Cindy about writing about fake news and other national security issues for the Young Adult audience, the history of fake news, the challenges of writing about the Holocaust, the changing terminology for disabled persons, the continuing challenges of wheelchair use in travel and in government buildings, her experiences at the CIA, why she writes for outlets ranging from Teen Vogue to USA Today, how to avoid falling prey to fake news, and why the exposure of Russian fake news about Ukraine gives her optimism about our collective ability to counter disinformation. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The book True or False: A CIA Analyst's Guide to Spotting Fake News by Cindy OtisThe book Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone by J. K. RowlingCindy Otis's writing for Teen VoguePreview of the forthcoming book At the Speed of Lies by Cindy Otis Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris talks with international best-selling novelist Daniel Silva, the creator of the long-running Gabriel Allon series. His latest installment in the adventures of the spy/art restorer is out now. Before he became a full-time fiction writer, Silva was a journalist. He produced successful shows at CNN and was a reporter overseas. Those early experiences informed his current career. Silva is known for crafting stories with a meticulous eye to factual detail. In this wide-ranging discussion, Silva talks about his decision to leave journalism and make writing novels his full-time job; his writing process; how he created the beloved spy Allon; and why Silva has decided to make Washington, DC, his home. He also gives us a preview of his latest book and explains how a long-running fascination with art forgery sent his hero on one of his most challenging missions yet. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Works mentioned in this episode include: Daniel Silva’s latest novel, Portrait of an Unknown Woman https://danielsilvabooks.com/books/portrait-of-an-unknown-woman/ The complete list of Silva’s books https://danielsilvabooks.com/the-books/a-complete-listing/ Silva on Twitter https://twitter.com/danielsilvabook?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mass shootings are now such a frequent occurrence in the United States that reporters like CNN's Josh Campbell sometimes have to travel from one tragic location directly to a second one as news of another event breaks. Josh's experience as an FBI special agent helps to give him a rich perspective on the practical and ethical challenges involved in this line of work.Josh Campbell spoke with David Priess about relations between the FBI and police departments, J. Edgar Hoover's influence on Hollywood's portrayal of the Bureau, CIA-FBI frictions, comparisons between special agent work and journalism, his experiences getting to and making his way around the scenes of mass shootings, the cost-benefit calculus of naming suspects in such incidents, the personal challenges of covering mass shootings, and more. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The movie Die HardThe book Crossfire Hurricane: Inside Donald Trump's War on Justice and the FBI by Josh CampbellJosh Campbell's CNN reportingTexas Tribune coverage of the Uvalde school shootingDaniel Silva's books Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Brad Thor is a #1 New York Times bestselling author who has more than twenty thrillers behind him and shows no signs of slowing down. Rising Tiger, just published on July 5, 2022, yet again places his franchise hero - former world-class skier, Navy SEAL, Secret Service agent, and private intelligence operative Scot Harvath - into deadly situations backlit by realistic geopolitical developments. How does Thor come up with his plots full of international intrigue and his detailed settings for Harvath's globetrotting adventures?Some of it comes from his parents, a US Marine and a flight attendant. Some of it comes from his personal experience before becoming a full-time novelist. Thor started out as an award-winning creator, producer, writer, and host of the critically acclaimed national public television series, Traveling Lite; since then, he has served as a member of the Department of Homeland Security’s Analytic Red Cell Unit and shadowed a Black Ops team in Afghanistan.Thor joined David Priess to discuss these questions and much more. They talked about how Thor's writing career started, the work of Secret Service agents, rebuilding trust in American institutions, US-Indian relations, the perils of rising partisan extremism in what Thor calls the "political-entertainment complex," how to write realistic descriptions of widely varied international locations, the value of bad-ass women characters, how he keeps current on geopolitical developments, how and why he places easter eggs in his novels, his encounters with celebrities from George Clinton to Michael Hayden to Mandy Patinkin, and the value of writing fiction by the seat of your pants.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works discussed in this episode:The TV series Rick Steves EuropeThe TV series Traveling LiteThe book Lions of Lucerne by Brad ThorThe movie Iron Man 2The podcast episode Secret Service Dilemmas and Training with Jon Wackrow on ChatterThe book Suicide of the West by Jonah GoldbergBrad Thor's other novelsThe book The Da Vinci Code by Dan BrownThe TV series The Old Man Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Working for the Secret Service comes with inherent dilemmas. One of them can arise if agents become partisan actors or allow themselves to even be perceived as such. We heard another one described in shocking terms during this week's testimony before the Jan. 6 committee: A protectee and the agents protecting him or her can disagree with the protectee about the latter's presence in a threatening situation or movement toward it.It turns out a whole lot of training prepares agents for these contingencies--as well as more predictable ones like how to respond instantaneously to myriad threats. Many lessons emerge from the study of past service failures, up to and including presidential assassinations and attempts. And some others can shed light elsewhere, such as on personal security and safety of institutions from schools to churches.Jonathan Wackrow knows about it all better than most. Before becoming COO and Global Head of Security for Teneo Risk and a law enforcement analyst for CNN, he worked for decades as a US Secret Service special agent. His work gave him experience in both sides of the organization's mission: investigations and protection, the latter including time on the details for the president and first lady.Wackrow joined David Priess for a deep and wide discussion about how cable news networks cover tragedy, the challenges of providing insight on security incidents in real time, his path into the Secret Service, how agents are trained, the lessons learned from historical failures of presidential protection, his own experiences with security breaches during the Obama administration, the dangers of perceived or actual politicization in the service, the balance between protecting a president and allowing a president's desired movements, agents' duty to testify in criminal investigations involving their protectees, how Secret Service experiences can help other institutions during an era of rising political violence, the benefits and drawbacks of school active shooter drills, and more. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The movie The BodyguardThe movie In the LIne of FireThe book Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service by Carol LeonnigThe book The Devil Never Sleeps: Learning to Live in an Age of Disasters by Juliette Kayyem Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris talked with historian Tim Naftali about the legacy of Watergate and how we tell stories, fifty years later, about America’s most notorious presidential scandal. What is it about Watergate that still captures our attention? What do historians, journalists, and citizens misremember about the events? And how does the scandal shape our understanding of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol? Naftali was the first federal director of the Richard Nixon library and earned accolades from historians--and criticism from Nixon loyalists--for his efforts to truthfully tell the story of Watergate in the Nixon museum. Naftali has written about intelligence, counterterrorism, national security and the American presidency in the modern era. He is currently a professor at New York University. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works discussed in this episode:Naftali’s recent article in The Atlantic about a controversial proposal from the National Archives on presidential libraries: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/national-archives-george-bush-privatize-history/639429/ Naftali on Twitter:  https://twitter.com/TimNaftali?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EauthorNaftali’s book on the secret history of U.S. counterterrorism, Blind Spot: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XBZ2QZ7/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Freemasonry for centuries has been more influential than any other known secret society. Among its prominent members have been five kings of England, fourteen US presidents (including George Washington), and a veritable Who's Who of writers, artists, and politicians. Masons helped with everything from founding the United States to starting the Sicilian mafia, from connecting distant parts of the British Empire to coordinating revolutions, from being the bogeymen for the Catholic Church and fascist dictators alike to performing great works of charity. NASA's Buzz Aldrin even founded a Masonic lodge on the Moon.Through it all, Freemasonry has featured in conspiracy theories about subversion, perversion, and world domination. Some of these claims, such as those positing Masonic plots to kill John Kennedy and to start the Russia-Ukraine war, are laughable. Other associations between Freemasons and nefarious deeds are more plausible; there was, for example, significant Freemason involvement in modern Italy's most explosive political scandal.Historian John Dickie, author of the deeply researched history of Freemasonry called The Craft: How Freemasons Made the Modern World, recently joined David Priess to discuss it all. They talked about the secret rituals of Freemasonry; its origins and development in Europe and America; the importance of George Washington and other early American Masons; Masons, the French Revolution, and the Illuminati; the complicated relationship of Freemasonry and race relations in the United State; Dan Brown's bestselling novel The Last Symbol; the rise and fall of Masonic influence in 20th century America; what Freemasonry is such an easy target for conspiracy theorists; and the links among Italian Freemasons, organized crime, and political elites. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works discussed in this episode:The book Blood Brotherhoods: A History of Italy's Three Mafias, by John DickieThe book The Craft: How Freemasons Made the Modern World, by John DickieThe movie The Godfather Part IIThe book The Lost Symbol, by Dan BrownThe TV show The FlintstonesThe book American Freemasons: Three Centuries of Building Communities, by Mark TabbertThe book A Deserving Brother: George Washington and Freemasonry, by Mark Tabbert Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When the term "intelligence" comes up regarding an organization, most of us immediately think of government institutions. And there's a good reason for that; nation-states have become the centers of the most prominent intelligence collection, analysis, and direct action. But that's far from the whole story. Increasingly, corporations are developing intelligence units of their own to uncover and assess threats to their personnel and facilities, analyze geopolitical and environmental risks that might affect their business prospects, and even take actions traditionally associated with governments.In this episode of Chatter, David Priess chats about all of this and more with Lewis Sage-Passant--who has built on his experiences in British military intelligence, private sector intelligence, crisis management, and related PhD research to explore the history, evolution, and ethics of this intriguing and challenging domain. They discuss the long history of private sector intelligence efforts, the difficulty disentangling early commercial efforts from government purposes, the fabled Pinkertons in the United States, the development of intelligence around modern corporations, the ethical issues that arise in this realm--and James Bond.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Among the works discussed in this episode:The book Venice's Secret Service: Organizing Intelligence in the Renaissance, by Ionna IordanouThe book The Richest Man Who Ever Lived: The Life and Times of Jacob Fugger, by Greg SteinmetzLewis Sage-Passant''s writing at Encylopedia Geopolitica Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris talks with journalist Jamie Kirchick about his new book Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington. Kirchick’s story unfolds over several decades and reveals the secret history of gays and lesbians in the capital, as well as the history of secrecy in which they played pivotal roles. The book is a set of personal stories as well as an exploration of the national security bureaucracy at the heart of power and influence in Washington. And Kirchick explores a provocative idea: Were gays and lesbians, already accustomed to living secret lives, well-suited to work as intelligence officers? Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works discussed in this episode:Jamie’s book: Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington https://www.amazon.com/dp/1627792325/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_YF2CX5FTCSS1BTCXSATMHis website: https://jameskirchick.com/Follow Jamie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jkirchick?s=21&t=E5hDivNZ2g89sHSeSB6DCA Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week marks the 80th anniversary of the start of principal photography on Casablanca, the 1942 film that would win Academy Awards for Best Picture, Best Director (Michael Curtiz), and Best Adapted Screenplay (Philip Epstein, Julius Epstein, and Howard Koch). Often ranked by critics and the general public in the top five films of all time, Casablanca was first screened just as the city in French Morocco was hitting headlines because of the Allies' Operation TORCH invasion of North Africa during World War II.To talk about the movie, the city's wartime history, and the veracity of Casablanca's representations about Casablanca, David Priess chatted with Meredith Hindley--who back in 2017, wrote the richly entertaining book Destination Casablanca: Exile, Espionage, and the Battle for North Africa in World War II. Their conversation covers her advocacy for the humanities and history, unexpected discoveries in archival research, an appreciation of the film, American and French resistance intelligence operations in French Morocco, intersections between wartime Casablanca and personalities from Franklin Roosevelt to Josephine Baker, and what the film got right and wrong about the experiences of refugees and many others in this vibrant city.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Works discussed in this episode:The book Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace, by Christopher BlattmanThe movie CasablancaMeredith Hindley's book Destination Casablanca: Exile, Espionage, and the Battle for North Africa in World War IIMeredith's other writingsMegan Kate Nelson, Saving Yellowstone: Exploration and Preservation in Reconstruction AmericaWoody Holton, LIberty is Sweet: The Hidden History of the American RevolutionRush, "Freewill" Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris speaks to Jenny Lumet and Alex Kurtzman, who co-created the new Showtime series “The Man Who Fell to Earth.” It’s about an alien, played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, who comes to Earth in search of technology to help save his home planet, which has been ravaged by a changing climate. He seeks out a brilliant scientist, played by Naomie Harris, who has the knowledge to help build the planet-saving device. But she is struggling to care for a young daughter and an ill father on her own and can barely make ends meet.  The show is based on the cult-classic film of the same name, which starred David Bowie, as well as a novel by Walter Tevis. The new telling is an allegory about climate change, and how humans have the potential to destroy worlds and to save them. It’s also an exploration of the lives of refugees and immigrants. The alien is trying to assimilate and survive in a new world whose traditions he doesn’t understand but whose fate is tied up with his own. And the scientist has been forced by circumstance to leave her old life behind and is struggling to understand where she fits in a different and hostile world. Jenny Lumet and Alex Kurtzman have been working together for years and have had long and distinguished careers of their own. Jenny wrote the screenplay for “Rachel Getting Married” and has executive produced several TV series. Alex has executive produced numerous science-fiction shows, including the Star Trek series “Discovery” and “Picard.” Shane talked to the filmmakers about their careers, the stories they are moved to tell, and their creative influences. Jenny also shared some great stories from her unusual childhood. She’s the daughter of Sidney Lumet, one of the 20th century’s most celebrated directors, and grew up in a house surrounded by talented and eccentric artists.  Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Isabelle Kerby-McGowan. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works discussed in this episode:“The Man Who Fell to Earth” on Showtime: https://www.sho.com/the-man-who-fell-to-earth The official trailer for the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqM5UeQVRvI A New York Times interview with Ejiofor about how he developed his character’s unusual physical movements: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/21/arts/television/chiwetel-ejiofor-the-man-who-fell-to-earth.html Jenny Lumet’s filmography: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0525886/ Alex Kurtzman’s filmography: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0476064/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris speaks to artist Trevor Paglen, who explores themes of surveillance, security, and secrecy. Shane first got to know Trevor’s work through his delightful and spooky book I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to Be Destroyed By Me: Emblems from the Pentagon’s Black World. It’s a collection of patches and insignia used by secretive military units and classified programs. They’re interesting works of art in their own right. But they also use images and numbers to communicate a hidden meaning. Trevor has spent much of his time decoding those messages and turning them into visual art. Trevor has turned secret code names into visual installations, tracked and photographed spy satellites as they crossed the night sky, and taken rare photographs of intelligence agency complexes and military installations. He told Shane about his career, as well as his days as a punk musician and his work in journalism. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo with engineering assistance from Ian Enright.Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Trevor Paglen’s website: https://paglen.studio/ I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to Be Destroyed By Me: https://www.amazon.com/Could-Tell-Then-Would-Destroyed/dp/193555414X From the Archives of Peter Merlin, Aviation Archaeologist https://www.amazon.com/Trevor-Paglen-Archives-Aviation-Archaelogist/dp/173209862X ImageNet Roulette: https://excavating.ai/ Trevor’s photos of intelligence agencies https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/new-photos-of-nsa-and-others/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Millions of hostile rivalries exist between groups worldwide, but their conflicts rarely escalate to protracted violence. Because would-be combatants know that all-out conflict usually proves immensely costly to all sides, they regularly find ways to avoid open warfare. And when it comes to international affairs in particular, we tend to focus on the wars that do occur at the expense of internalizing the core truth that, most of the time, they simply don't happen.Political scientist and economist Christopher Blattman has a fresh take on these big issues of war and peace. He argues for sustained attention not only to the mechanisms by which conflict wins out over compromise but also to the remedies that routinely shift incentives away from protracted violence and get rivals back to deal-making. His research has put him in the room with street gang leaders and African dictators, British football hooligans and drug kingpins--experiences that combine with his insights from political science, economics, and psychology in his new book, Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace.David Priess hosts this long and fascinating conversation with Blattman about his hands-on field work, his framework for understanding why groups do and do not choose violence, and what it all means for practical efforts at conflict avoidance and resolution. Along the way, they find their way from the Godfather films to game theory to the U.S. wars with Iraq--and, most of all, they relate much of it to the current war between Russia and Ukraine.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Works discussed in this episode:The book Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace, by Christopher BlattmanThe Godfather movieThe Godfather II movieThe book The Insane Chicago Way: The Daring Plan by Chicago Gangs to Create a Spanish Mafia, by John HagedornBreaking Bad TV seriesThe book Beyond Plunder: Toward Democratic Governance in Liberia, by Amos Sawyer Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris speaks to filmmaker Nicholas Meyer about the renewed threat of nuclear war amid the conflict in Ukraine. Meyer directed the 1983 film “The Day After,” which remains the most-watched film in television history. The story follows a group of Kansans before, during, and after a full-scale nuclear war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. It shocked hundreds of millions of viewers--including President Ronald Reagan--with its graphic depiction of the ferocious power of nuclear weapons and the poisonous, lingering fallout that made the world effectively uninhabitable. Meyer has had a remarkable career as a storyteller. He directed Hollywood blockbusters including Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Time After Time. He is an Academy Award nominated screenwriter and an accomplished novelist. He and Shane talked about making The Day After, a film Meyer thought might never make it to air. He felt he had a duty to tell the story as a warning to the world, and hoped it would prevent Reagan from winning reelection. That didn’t happen, but, as Shane and Nick discuss, The Day After did change Reagan’s thinking about the nature of nuclear war, and thus helped alter the course of history. The lessons of Meyer’s film resonate loudly again today, as Russian President Vladimir Putin has raised the possibility of using nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works discussed in this episode include:Nicholas Meyer’s website: https://www.nicholas-meyer.com/ Read about The Day After: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_After Learn more about Television Event, a documentary about the 1983 film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_Event Watch the 1983 ABC News town hall that followed the movie’s premiere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3CLeA2bOKU Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

No one understands the surreal aspects of a large, long-established bureaucracy like someone who has worked in it. And few have written satire about the particular bureaucracy known as the Central Intelligence Agency like former intelligence officer, prominent yacht-watcher, and book author Alex Finley.For this episode, Shane Harris and David Priess speak jointly with Finley about her career in the CIA's Directorate of Operations (which became the National Clandestine Service during her tenure there), her keen observation and analysis of Russian oligarchs' mega-yachts (which brought her onto cable news networks this spring after several countries started to seize the ships in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine), and her experience writing a series of spy satire novels (which take espionage absurdity to a new level). The three of them also kicked around views on a range of spy satire films, from 1985's Spies Like Us to the puppet-centric Team America to Spy with Melissa McCarthy.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works discussed in this episode:Victor in the Rubble by Alex FinleyVictor in the Jungle by Alex FinleyVictor in Trouble by Alex FinleyThe Miernik Dossier by Charles McCarryThe Thunderbirds (TV show)Movies mentioned include Office Space, The Interview, Team America, Spies Like Us, the James Bond series, Central Intelligence, Spy, Burn After Reading, and the Austin Powers series. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Artificial Intelligence algorithms are increasingly being used to make decisions for us. But, as NBC technology correspondent Jacob Ward argues, these are not necessarily the ones we want to perpetuate. Preying upon our brains' evolved shortcuts, biases, and hidden processes, they are becoming ever harder to escape.For this episode, David Priess spoke with Ward--author of the new book The Loop: How Technology is Creating a World Without Choices and How To Fight Back--about artificial intelligence and much more. They discussed Ward's previous roles as editor in chief of Popular Science magazine and as host of the PBS mini-series Hacking Your Mind, the importance of social psychology to many fields of study, the development of automated pattern-recognition systems that ultimately reduce human agency and choice, the ethics of working on algorithms without knowing their end uses, the challenges for reporters working on AI and related technologies, and how movies from Minority Report to Star Wars to WALL-E capture elements of AI.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Works discussed in this episode:Popular Science magazine’s announcement of its comments policy change (2013)Hacking Your Mind PBS miniseries (2020)The Loop by Jacob WardMovies mentioned include Minority Report, the Star Wars franchise, and WALL-E. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For decades, humanity has failed to address climate change and prepare for its devastating impact. Without significant changes to our consumption of fossil fuels, the coming reckoning will be severe. But there is hope; the same forces that have confused the public's mind and slowed the policy response are poised to pivot with astonishing speed. And the insurance industry is likely to lead the way.To understand how we got to the cliff's edge--and how to avoid going over it--David Priess speaks with Eugene Linden, a longtime writer on issues at the intersections of science, culture, and business. They discussed Linden's previous books on animal intelligence and how civilizational rises and falls are linked to climate change. They talked about a new way of looking at the climate story, as four clocks that move at different speeds: the reality of climate change itself; the scientific consensus about it, which always lags reality; public opinion and political will, which lag further still; and, perhaps most important, business and finance. And they spoke about the changes in these clocks decade by decade, from 1979 forward, with a focus on the insurance industry as one loud canary in the coal mine.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Works mentioned in this episode:Fire and Flood: A People's History of Climate Change, from 1979 to the PresentEugene's previous writings can be found here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris speaks to Lucianne Walkowicz, an astronomer and astrobiologist at the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. Walkowicz is the co-founder of the JustSpace Alliance and studies the ethics of space exploration. This was a wide-ranging conversation about the moral and ethical dimensions of humanity’s search for life in the universe and exploration of other planets. We often think about what cities on the moon or Mars might look like, but how should humans live on those worlds and interact with their new environments? For instance, what if human visitors find microbes living in Martian water, but also need that water as a source of nourishment? Do we kill the organisms living in it, which might also be the first evidence of life on other planets? They also talked about the risks and rewards of sending out signals of human life on Earth in the hope that distant species might discover it. Should we try to make contact in order to find more intelligent life forms we can learn from, or do we risk opening ourselves to conquest by alerting potentially hostile species to our existence?  Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the resources cited in this episode:Lucianne Walkowicz’s web site. https://notnotrocketscience.com/ The JustSpace Alliance https://justspacealliance.org/ The SETI Institute https://www.seti.org/ Some movies we discussed: Contact (1997) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118884/ Arrival (2016) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2543164/  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris talks with journalist Catherine Belton about the rise of Vladimir Putin from KGB officer to president of Russia. Belton’s book, Putin’s People: How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took On the West, traces how Soviet-era spies siphoned billions out of the state economy, creating vast networks for laundering money and hiding assets. After Putin came to power, he pushed out the tycoons of the post-Soviet era and set up his own cadre of loyal oligarchs. Today, as the West levies massive sanctions against Putin and his supporters, Belton’s work reveals much about how he managed to amass such vast wealth and control of the Russian state. Putin now finds himself increasingly isolated, surrounded by a small circle of loyal advisers. Will Western sanctions help pressure the oligarchs to take back control? What is Putin’s endgame in Ukraine? Shane and Catherine’s discussion is a timely exploration of what made Putin and what could bring him down. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works cited in this episode:Putin's People: How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took On the West https://www.amazon.com/Putins-People-Took-Back-Russia/dp/0374238715/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1647978957&sr=8-1 Catherine Belton on Twitter https://twitter.com/CatherineBelton?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Russia's most recent invasion of Ukraine is reverberating around the globe--including in the Arctic. An area that had seen increasingly productive cooperation, due in large part to multilateral institutions like the Arctic Council, is now facing even greater uncertainty.To dig deep into all things Arctic as the war in Ukraine continues, David Priess spoke with Marisol Maddox, senior Arctic analyst at the Polar Institute of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars and non-resident research fellow at the Center for Climate & Security. Her research and communication sits at the intersection of Arctic politics, climate change, and security.We spoke about her unusual education combining ecology and international security, how climate change is driving heightened geopolitical interest in the Arctic, the regional importance of the Law of the Sea, the unique legal status of the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard, the Arctic Council and other international institutions focusing on the region, the damage that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has done to Arctic cooperation, China's increasing interest in the Far North, and more.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week's episode goes back a decade and a half to the 2007 cyberattacks on Estonia--and brings the conversation to today, both with lessons we can learn from the country's digitalization and information security awareness and with discussion of how Russia's earlier aggression previewed its recent invasion of Ukraine.Toomas Hendrik Ilves served as Estonia's Ambassador to the United States, Canada, and Mexico and then its Foreign Minister (twice) before becoming the country's president in 2006. During the first of his two five-year terms in that office, Estonia suffered a wave of Russian or Russian-backed cyberattacks that shut down much of the highly online country. But Estonia recovered quickly, using the crisis as an opportunity to speed up its already advanced digitization and to expand its cyber education efforts.David Priess spoke with Ilves about his parents' experience fleeing wartime Estonia as Russians started mass deportations to Siberia, his education and early exposure to coding in 1971, the cyberattacks of 2007, how the government and society responded, how others in Europe reacted to this and other Russian provocations, Estonian education and E-government initiatives, and why the new Russian invasion of Ukraine has (so far) lacked a major cyber warfare element. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, Shane Harris talks with professor and author Elizabeth Samet about Hollywood’s portrayal of World War II and how that influences what Americans think about “the good war.” Samet’s book Looking for the Good War: American Amnesia and the Violent Pursuit of Happiness explores how generations of filmmakers have depicted the conflict. Many of their stories, she argues, have inspired a nostalgia for a war that seemed clearer cut and more virtuous than subsequent American conflicts. Contemporary movies in particular have emphasized the righteousness of the war and the United States’ role in it. Saving Private Ryan, for instance, reintroduced a new generation of Americans to “the greatest generation,” and portrayed the war as seemingly less complicated and fraught than the Vietnam War. But Samet writes that many of these Hollywood renderings are misleading and don't accurately capture how those fighting the war, and those on the homefront, truly felt about it. She also shows how veterans of the war have not always been flatteringly portrayed. Samet is a professor of English at West Point. Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.Among the works cited in this episode:Looking for the Good War: American Amnesia and the Violent Pursuit of Happiness https://www.amazon.com/Looking-Good-War-American-Happiness/dp/0374219923/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1646252298&sr=1-1 New York Times review https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/29/books/review-looking-for-good-war-elizabeth-samet.html About Elizabeth Samet and her other books https://us.macmillan.com/author/elizabethdsamet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week's episode takes a walk on the dark side, with a molecular look at a prominent international poisonings.Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov died in 1978 after a ricin pellet was shot into his leg, from an air gun disguised as an umbrella. Twenty-eight years later, former KGB/FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko suffered horribly and died after the poison polonium-210 was slipped into his tea. And former GRU officer Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia nearly died in 2018 from the effects of a nerve agent attack.To understand how the molecules used in these assaults do their worst to the human body, David Priess speaks with Dr. Neil Bradbury, Professor of Physiology and Biophysics at the Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science--where he teaches and conducts research on genetic diseases, especially cystic fibrosis. He is the author of A Taste for Poison: Eleven Deadly Molecules and the Killers Who Used Them, which combines elements of popular science, medical history, and true crime to show how the precise systems of the body can be impaired to lethal effect through the use of poison. We spoke about the four routes through which poison can be delivered to a victim, the physiology and biochemistry behind a few poisons, the prominent assassinations of Markov and Litvinenko, the attempted assassination of Skripal, and the difficulty of getting away with murder using even rare poisons once their effects are known. The information in this episode is purely for educational and entertainment purposes and is not intended to give the advantages and disadvantages of the use of any particular poison in the commission of any crime.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.Among the works cited in this episode:A Taste for Poison: Eleven Deadly Molecules and the Killers Who Used Them, by Neil BradburyDr. Bradbury's research on cystic fibrosis"Murder by Numbers," The Police (the PoliceWiki)"A is for Arsenic: The Poisons of Agatha Christie" (agathachristie.com) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.