Why Did Epstein's System Work? (The Science + Fact Checking)

Dive into the latest Epstein leaks with Malcolm and Simone Collins on Based Camp! We break down the bizarre “pizza” obsession among elites (spoiler: it’s not about food), analyze what’s real vs. conspiracy hype—like torture videos, baby-eating claims, and connections to figures like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Trump, and Prince Andrew. Plus, we explore the fascinating science behind why wealthy men prefer youthful traits (backed by our own research on breast preferences and evolutionary psychology). From elite predator networks to why conservatives are embracing fetishes at Mar-a-Lago, we separate fact from fiction without holding back. Is Pizzagate back? We discuss without getting banned.

If you enjoy unfiltered takes on culture, science, and scandals, subscribe for more episodes! Check out our books “The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality” and others at https://pragmatist.guide/

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. We are going crazy world with these Epstein leaks.

I swear rich people really love pizza.

Simone Collins: Such a

Malcolm Collins: big

Simone Collins: pizza problem.

Malcolm Collins: That is my big takeaway. I love it. Even after reading these, Simone, the credulous person, she is immediately is like, do I send so many emails about pizza? Yeah. So she goes to her inbox to see how many times she has mentioned pizza in, how, how many was it?

Simone Collins: So in 2025, it, it got a little messed up because we serve pizza at Octavia’s birthday. So not including those, we had 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 emails. No, sorry, eight. Eight. That’s a

Malcolm Collins: suspicious number

Simone Collins: of emails. Well, no,

one was from [00:01:00] Octavian school district, one was from a scientific research paper. One was from an outline from one of our episodes. But it’s like we, we never, we never personally,

Malcolm Collins: don’t have any personal emails.

Simone Collins: Basically in, in, no, in no email from last year did we at any point. Talk about pizza over email, aside from a, a children’s birthday party invite. And the rest of it was just like quoting other people or people sending us emails.

Malcolm Collins: And we have children and aren’t super rich, right? Like we know the demographic.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. No, no, no. Here’s how bad the, the pizza we served in Octavian birthday was cooked in our oven anyway. It wasn’t even like

cooked

Malcolm Collins: in our oven

Simone Collins: Quartered pizza.

Malcolm Collins: No. So the, my favorite thing about this particular Epstein League is it the one guy who like wasn’t on board with the naming system and so everyone is like, Hey, how about that pizza and grape juice we had last night?

And then there’s this one guy who’s like, [00:02:00] I really like the torture video she sent me. I imagine Epstein, it’s like whenever you’re doing something that’s like shady at work and you have to get everyone together and you’re like, okay, you understand we do not email each other about this. Right? And

Simone Collins: then

Malcolm Collins: I really like the fraud we’re doing.

Simone Collins: I love that. I love the part where we hunted people for sport that

Malcolm Collins: love this one, this, this, this one guy who is still somehow, blanked in the, in the emails.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But what we’re gonna go over in this episode are two core questions. The first, and I think more interesting question is the science behind all of this which is, we are, for people who don’t know this actually pretty esteemed researchers in the sex space, was Aila even saying that our research is some of the best out there?

So, because I, I find it really fascinating and one of the biggest findings that we broke [00:03:00] that other people have, have, have found correlary since our breaking it. Is that the wealthier a man gets, the smaller his breast preference. Which if you’re looking at a societally Okay. Way to say you like younger women or potentially even what’s the word, hemophilia, where they’re, you know, teenagers or whatever women.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is the core market that Epstein dealt with. The, we gotta ask why. Why is this a trend? Why does it happen and how do networks of. Predators because in the past everyone who said there are elite networks of sexual predators like PDA files everyone would’ve said, that’s crazy.

You know, you would do that. It’s the, the classic conspiracy theory. And now it’s just like definitionally true. And the government tried to cover it up for a really long time,

Simone Collins: so bad.

It’s so bad. [00:04:00] We’re so back. Pizzagate is so back. You people,

Malcolm Collins: you can’t say that that’s one of the most likely to get you banned things on YouTube.

Simone Collins: Okay. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: We can, we cannot talk about that. Oh, you don’t know guys. So some higher ups at YouTube really don’t want us talking about that exact word. But what we are going to, I wonder, I wonder why what we’re gonna do is the science of this, because I think it’s very interesting and I mean, for me, I just can’t imagine getting wrapped up in something like that.

I can imagine being into like weird stuff on my own right? But I can’t imagine wanting to do it with friends or entering like a big network of doers that then talk about it offline, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. So I wanna understand what’s going on there. And I say all this where Mar-a-Lago is literally having high profile furry parties.

Now, the rights just embracing [00:05:00] normal. Fricking fetishes these days. They’re like, you know what, furries we, we, we’ve made fun of them. Let’s have a furry party at the Mar-a-Lago. Right? Like all the conservative big ones. You threw these,

Simone Collins: we did it guys say the furries.

Malcolm Collins: Have you seen pictures of this, Simone?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I have. I have. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And then the other thing I wanna cover, because I’ve been genuinely disappointed by the top conservative influencer coverage of this Mm. Is what was real in this drop and what wasn’t real in this drop. Mm-hmm. And Nino and Asma Gold, who I really love, have just dropped the ball in terms of their credulousness in their coverage on this.

And so have a number of, I watch for just a quick summary. If you have heard stuff badged around and you’re not really sure. Oh, what’s likely this, what’s likely that? All of the stuff involving eating babies or torturing people or murdering people,

All of that, [00:06:00] all of that stuff.

Simone Collins: The aforementioned the torture video was great.

Email

Malcolm Collins: except for the torture video was great, but that was him. Oh, except

Simone Collins: for that one.

Malcolm Collins: That wasn’t him actively participating in torture. I’m talking about the all of this stuff that suggests that, not that he had like a collection of inappropriate videos which is, you know, if you’re talking about like depraved internet, Gunnar type individuals.

Even, even the recent leak was the, the conservative black stringer guy had stuff like that, right? I think,

Simone Collins: yeah, I mean, I guess the, the, the line between intense BDSM and beyond that is, is thin.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I wanted to, that there’s just no good evidence for any of that stuff. Even in the, the, the leaks, the one where they were like on a boat and eating babies.

Right.

Simone Collins: Oh, that, yeah. That

Malcolm Collins: one explicitly said it came from hypnosis. Recovered memories.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It

Malcolm Collins: sounds

Simone Collins: just like a schizo fever dream.

Malcolm Collins: If you have no experience [00:07:00] of if, if you have no experience with psychology and you’ve never taken any classes on, I’ll, I’ll just basically tell you what that means in psychology terms.

It means he made it up.

Simone Collins: Yeah. If, if you’ve been hypnotized and you remembered something,

Malcolm Collins: hypnotized, recovered memories are in, in my instance, there actually isn’t a single known instance of them. Recovering a conformably verifiable memory.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There isn’t a single known instance in all of human history of this working to recover real memories.

Sorry, I wanted to make sure of this, and there’s literally one potential exception in 1976 in the chia bus kidnapping tied to finding a license plate. Other than that, there is no instance ever in human history where this worked.

Malcolm Collins: it is a a mechanism for implant [00:08:00] memories. And these are exactly the type of schizo memories that somebody would’ve had implanted in them, especially if you look at the other things that he remembers about his life.

Like apparently everyone he knew growing up was griping him and stuff like that. It sounds like he just started to, one, everyone I know is griping me. And then two let’s also say that the famous people were doing it so I sound more important. Right. Secondly a lot of the other stuff like the ones with Gillian Maxwell, like tying somebody up and shocking them.

That one sounds like that could just be normal. PDSM re Yeah. And then two yeah,

Simone Collins: that’s just a good time people,

Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s from a random report from somebody that was unconfirmed, right? Yeah. It’s the same with the, the girl who was tortured as a s slave. Keep in mind that the person who wrote the book about Epstein, you know, the posthumous book, also described herself as an S slave, even though she very clearly was not what we would standardly consider an S slave.

And

Simone Collins: [00:09:00] there are actual, like many, many, many, many, many people who are in s slavery. So,

Malcolm Collins: so it, it is what I’m saying here is that I could see somebody else using the term incorrectly in, in, in this instance. And with the killing stuff, the fact that we have no body, no likely body, no like a a again, that just seems.

Un un plasible to me. The Elon connections are tentative from our, because people, you know, know now, we’ve had personal interactions with him. ‘cause the New York Times leaked it. He seemed to take personal pride in inve evading e Epstein and sort of sticking it to Epstein. And you can see how long he’s been trying to get the files released.

Simone Collins: Well, and I think it, it’s all, it also needs to be said, and this is really clear from mainstream journalistic reporting on how Epstein worked. The way he worked was to take anyone who was in a position of power and influence and put them into positions where he could blackmail them into doing what he wanted, which often involved extorting [00:10:00] money from them or making them do other things.

Either by, you know, saying they were gonna, he was gonna release really embarrassing things. So he would even, you know, he would try to even just through. Connection or, you know, I’m gonna send this person across your path in a way that’s gonna make you look bad. It’s kind of how Nick Fuentes used to photo bomb people, you know, to like, try to get them canceled back when that was possible to do.

Epstein did a much more sophisticated and much more dangerous version of that. Or maybe you’d hire him as an accountant and then, you know, he kind of said he was gonna handle some things and you kind of looked the other way. ‘cause you, it sounded really great and you didn’t wanna know. What he was doing because it, you know, you knew that it might be a little bit dubious and then suddenly you discover that he’s basically embezzling money from you, but you can’t not let him do it because what he did with your finances, with apparently, you know, with, with your tat oversight would put you in jail.

So that’s how he works. Yeah. That,

Malcolm Collins: that was his operation. So he

Simone Collins: intentionally

Malcolm Collins: would word emails in [00:11:00] ways that were meant to try to inc criminalize other people,

Simone Collins: incriminate. And well, and, and he would intentionally try to build connections with people and write about building connections with people to build this network.

Yeah. And so non consensually people got associated with him

Malcolm Collins: with the Elon emails. Like the biggest smoking gun you have is the one like, Hey, I, I’ll come to your island on whatever night the craziest party is. But it doesn’t appear that he went. And it’s important to note that when you’re talking about rich people like this, we have personally had.

Meetings confirmed with Elon that got blown off like two days beforehand or something like that. Like, th this is, when you’re talking about somebody of that level of wealth confirming something and then not showing up is an over 50% of the time type of thing. Especially if it’s something social like an island party or something like that.

It seems very likely Elon just blew him off. So I, I I see nothing there. There was nothing additional on Trump that was meaningful. More stuff on how much Epstein hated Trump and how much Trump hated Epstein. He really

Simone Collins: did. [00:12:00] Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There was unconfirmed allegations against Trump, but these allegations have been around the public for a long time.

And in terms of people our side wants to get like Zohan Mond, they’re like, he’s in the Epstein files. Not really. His mom was, he had a, had a screening for one of her movies and that was listed in the Epstein files. Like Epstein had it at one of his estates or something. And so she and him would’ve been at the same party, like, Ooh, spooky.

And I need you to keep in mind when you’re like, oh, people don’t just make stuff up to try to associate themselves with random, famous people who are sort of doing the rounds. We had a 20 minute crash out about how we are vampires who practice dark magic on the number one podcast in the world about us, on the Joe Rogan Podcast.

See our episode about that if you want, like when you are on the tongue of the public. People have crash outs about you. And and the cool thing about that one is it [00:13:00] pulled from a lot of real sources. I thought he did a good job researching it. I, I like that crash out, right? Like, that was like a, okay.

Yeah. Kurt

Simone Collins: Metzger gets your gold star of approval.

Malcolm Collins: Cold star. Yeah.

Simone Collins: No. What’s, what’s hilarious is I feel like Kurt Metzger’s take on us was, no, actually it’s not. I feel, I know for a fact that Kurt Metzger’s take on us on the Joe Rogan experience was more accurate than Matt Bernstein’s appear. Take on us like hour long, I think hour plus long take on us in.

The a bit fruity podcast, which is insane to me because presumably he did research. He did an entire podcast just about us. Kurt Metzger just mentioned us offhand after like two hours of conspiracy theorizing and he got more right

Malcolm Collins: stuff and it was all closer than normal. Progressive talking points about us.

Simone Collins: Isn’t that insane? What even why? But I feel like, yeah, we’re in the era where the conspiracy theories are more correct than the mainstream leftist. What I’m saying is

Malcolm Collins: conservatives expect more of their conspiracy theorists.

Simone Collins: We [00:14:00] do higher standard, higher standard.

Malcolm Collins: It was progressives. You just say the narrative and nobody thinks to question you and you won’t get in trouble if you’re wrong.

If the person’s a bad, naughty person,

Simone Collins: apparently.

Malcolm Collins: But I guess I went on too far of a tangent with what’s real and what’s not. Okay. So what is real in the latest drop? Like what’s actually,

Simone Collins: what is likely real? Again, this is all conjecture on our part. We’re not experts,

Malcolm Collins: we’re

Simone Collins: spiders.

Malcolm Collins: The big likely ones are more stuff on the print.

It appears that Prince was a bigger part of the operation than had previously been believed.

Simone Collins: Prince Andrew.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he really used the fact that Andrew was at a party to try to get other famous people to go and to legitimize the parties.

Simone Collins: That totally makes sense. Absolutely. 100%.

Malcolm Collins: That was his lure and authentication mechanism as much as the girls were.

Simone Collins: And then this is this, I know also provably, this is how elite society meetings go. When you invite elite people to an event, the top hook that, that is used, and this is across different networks, groups meetings, conferences, [00:15:00] is who else is going you know, will I be able to see this other person that I want to know?

And it doesn’t seem like there’s a cap to someone’s level of money or fame. And their excitement about meeting some other famous people like you don’t instantly get to just meet or DM anyone else who’s famous. If you yourself are famous, famous people still want access to other famous people. And so those who, who manipulate them and connect them with each other, which included Jeffrey Epstein use them as lures to catch more.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and, and it works really. I mean, especially that’s, this is one of the reasons why I, I was gonna say, I’ll go into why the PDA networks grow as soon as you’ve been implicated and something even edge case like that. Mm-hmm. Now all of a sudden you sort of need to go along with it and be really nice to the person.

And the way that Epstein did it, to explain to you why it’s so nefarious, ‘cause I pointed this out in previous videos, our society [00:16:00] has a very, very bad trait, which we should not do, which is conflating hemophilia with. PBA files. Okay. If you’re not familiar, hemophilia is like a 17-year-old, 16-year-old girl or something like that.

Mm-hmm. Now, Epstein can send to your room a 17 or 16-year-old girl without you knowing that this girl is 17 or 16 years old. She grew up in Russia. She lived a hard life. She may look a bit older. I mean, you’ve seen the pictures of Gen Z these

Simone Collins: days. Also a in terms of we, we, even if we’re talking about the legality or illegality of it depending on, and keep in mind, Epstein’s parties, events, the network, et cetera, highly international, these things are happening not always in the United States

.

I don’t know, Malcolm, if you could pull up an age of consent map, but when someone first showed one to me, I was kind of floored by how low the age of consent is in other countries.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it was really low. It’s like 14 or something in a lot of

Simone Collins: years. Yeah. So I mean, Epstein, you know, could have been hosting a party in, in some other country and [00:17:00] sending girls over and it was totally legal, like nothing bad happened, but, so while it’s creepy.

It’s not illegal in those instances

Malcolm Collins: either Then, then the way this works is he sends over somebody who you don’t have a clear way to know, and you don’t think that somebody’s sending an underage person to your room or something like that.

Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. Or also like you’re a dude, you’re drunk and you’re at a party.

Like there’s a point point coming on. People don’t say no. Yeah. It’s just, I think this is really well demonstrated by those various research studies, which probably wouldn’t pass an ethics pass, an ethics board now, where they had female researchers just walk up to random guys on a college campus and was like, Hey, you wanna go?

Like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah,

Simone Collins: would you like to have sex with me? And the boys would be, no, no questions asked. Just like, yes. I think even wealthy men are like other

Malcolm Collins: big, real one that is the most embarrassing, most horrible thing ever is the Bill Gates one.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh.

Malcolm Collins: Like, but for people who haven’t heard, I’ll be quick about it because it’s so embarrassing.

He asked how he could get antibiotics to [00:18:00] slip to his wife secretly after attracting a STD from a Russian hooker. And that is the most embarrassing leak I have ever. It actually made me feel bad for Bill Gates. And I know this is horrible ‘cause Bill Gates is being a sleaze ball in this entire situation.

But

Simone Collins: I was like, well also not being resourceful, I mean, like we have. They’re expired now, but we have entire boxes full of antibiotics that we picked up in Peru. ‘cause you can just buy them over the counter in most cases.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins: it’s also lot, he could just get it. He could just get the antibiotics he needed.

He didn’t need to ask you

Malcolm Collins: give me pills that I take every day without really questioning. Like, I’ve been like, what are these new ones? And you’re like, I don’t know. I freaking do, do. I’m

Simone Collins: like, take them.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, take the pills. And, and it’s the same as me and you. If I just came to you and was like, Hey, take these pills for a week.

And

Simone Collins: you’re like, you’re like, sure.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. And I’d be like, just take ‘em Simone. Like come on. What? Sure. But like that, that’s already a breakdown in communication right [00:19:00] there. Although maybe we are way too trusting of each other now that I think about it. That you’re just like, Malcolm New pills. I read some study.

You don’t, you don’t need to confirm. Your doctor said so you don’t

Simone Collins: forget Malcolm. I chose the bear. Maybe you really should be question

Malcolm Collins: anyway. Yeah. You chance the bear. Right? So, the Bill Gates thing. Super embarrassing.

Okay. I was wrong on this one. The Bill Gates smoking gun was an unsent email in Epstein’s. Angry Unsent email list, drafts list. So it’s not as strong of a smoking gun as I thought because Bill Gates didn’t send it. Bill Gates didn’t confirm it. He didn’t even receive it. Now, it would be very weird to write an unsent email like this if this was entirely fictional or wrong.

Uh, but Epstein specialized in trying to get other, like to create. The interpretation of dirt on other people, [00:20:00] so I’ll mark this as maybe less a hundred percent than I originally thought.

Malcolm Collins: Sorry, where was I going? But yes, the point being is he gets you the first time with somebody you don’t know is underage.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then it’s like, well, then you have to go again. And then this other time you’re at a party and oh no, somebody is, you know, something more egregious is happening and you saw it and you have to pretend you’re okay with it ‘cause you’re at the party on an island. And you don’t wanna pretend to be, you know, and a lot of these people grew up nerds and stuff like that, so they’re like, I guess I’m okay with this now.

Mm-hmm. So that, that’s how you get, you know, looped into this stuff in, in regards to the science of like wealthy men and why they are more likely to likely this stuff mm-hmm. Than non wealthy men.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll quickly go into this for our audience. ‘cause it, it is fascinating from an evolutionary perspective.

So

Simone Collins: I mean, and then again, these are our theories. As to why this would be the case.

Malcolm Collins: The data that we pulled on this was really striking when we pulled the data, so I’ll pull it up. You’re, you’re acting like it’s just a theory. Wealthy men prefer smaller breasts. This pattern is even more [00:21:00] striking than we anticipated in our data.

Not a single man in the wealthiest category of those taking our survey reported preferring a breast size above average with around half preferring small breasts. So around half of wealthy men preferred the smallest breast size selectable in a breast selection list. Our survey respondents who reported being in the second highest well category reported preferring breasts, small breasts, but at a rate of 17% and a robust 84% Preferred breasts of average are smaller.

So if you’re, if you’re wealthy, but not in the super category of wealth, still 84% are preferring smaller than average bass breasts. Contrast that was the lowest category of income. We are only. 5% of men said they preferred the smallest category of breasts. Now, keep in mind, what was it? Over 50% in the wallies category, 5% in the lowest category.

And so the question is, what’s what’s going on here? Right? Like, what’s what? Because you can’t, a wall breast kind of know to not say that they’re interested in morphologically youthful women, right? So they’re gonna have some [00:22:00] other way of saying that, and this was an easy way for us to track that.

So, what, what does that, why, why would you have this preference? If you are a male, you are in a very interesting position in terms of what arouses you, right? Which is to say, typically in a species what you are going to have aroused, you are traits that are morphologically unique to the opposite gender of your species.

And in humans, what are the traits that are morphologically unique to human females? It is breasts, it is hip to waist ratio. It is a slightly larger butt unless you are African, and then it’s a much larger butt because there’s a morphological difference there. And then in some unique groups like the cosign, you have other morphologically gender unique things, but generally a breast, breast and waist to hip ratio.

The problem with that is as a male, you are not only optimizing for a morphologically. Female partner, right? [00:23:00] Like the most female possible. You have a second thing that you’re optimizing for, which is a length of her fertility window, because that determines how many kids you can have. All right? Women with the highest length fertility window are going to be in the category.

You know, I, I would think like your, your best fertility years are what, like two years after puberty or something like that. So that’s gonna be like 16, 15. I think 16 is probably like the sweet spot, right? And then this explains why a lot of countries have like 14, it’s the younger age for consent

Now I need to clarify that the absolute peak for getting pregnant, like conceivably is early twenties. This is the peak for if you’re trying to maximize your fertility window.

Now.

I, I don’t think that’s good. I think that kids develop at a slower rate in modern society. And so while I think that you likely were not actually causing psychological trauma or damage when this was happening, you know, when 14-year-old, a [00:24:00] 15-year-old arranged marriages were happening in a medieval context, I think a kid in a modern context is certainly gonna have developmental issues tied to that because they’re going to be, well, I mean, they do technically develop faster these days because of the chemicals that they have.

I mean, girls go through puberty earlier, but I think mentally they develop a lot slower.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t actually know the reasoning behind the different ages, but I do know that in terms of health complications they, they are higher. When you are uniquely young.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. When you’re like very young, like right after puberty.

I did not say. Right. I mean like a few. But anyway, the point here being is that if you are unga, bunga, caveman, I don’t care about ethics. I wanna have as many babies as possible. Which is like what you genes are.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right.

Simone Collins: And if you know that you have resources sufficient to care for your.

Partners as well. So you don’t need to make sure that they have excess fat stores.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well, we will get to that in a second because you also see this important individuals, they prefer fatter, larger breasts. Again, you, you see this as well. Mm-hmm. So you, you as a male are [00:25:00] pulled between two things. One is being sure that they are a female, which is larger breasts and wider waist to hip ratio.

Mm-hmm. And two is being sure that they are younger, which is smaller breasts, smaller waist to hip ratio. So you’re, you’re dealing with. Two opposite patterns here, right? Mm-hmm. And what I hypothesize is that if you are extremely well resourced, you are better off optimizing for the secondary pattern, right?

Optimizing for the longer fertility window, because you was the, with the other guys, you’re basically like, okay, I want to ensure that she has fat stores, that she’s healthy, that we can make kids right now, and that those kids will be healthy if made right now. Mm-hmm. And we’ll get maybe four kids or something like that, right?

Mm-hmm. For wealthy guy, it’s, well, I wanna aim for like 20 kids, right? Yeah. Like, I wanna aim for like 17 kids, right? Like, yeah.

Simone Collins: [00:26:00] Long-term investments like the Yeah. They’re willing to

Malcolm Collins: I can afford those 17 kids, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I can afford those 20 kids. Right. So you, you would have a biological benefit from having this dimorphic preference in arousal patterns.

Mm-hmm. Which will explain why and you actually see this in other parts of the data which is to say that wealthier men, in terms of how they do mate displays and this was interesting for, for women being less wealthy, that we found in our data is that they prefer more stereotypically masculine men.

EG, the like wood chopper, lumberjack car mechanic type guy. Right. Like very, very buffin masculine.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Whereas wealthy women. Prefer, well, like metrosexual, vampire, like looking guy. Fair enough. You know,

Simone Collins: that’s, I didn’t know about that. That’s very interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and you also see this was males males prefer [00:27:00] more like if, if you look at like what are other like gender dimorphic displays that a woman could make, right?

Mm-hmm. Well, she could grow out her nails super long. Yeah. She could grow super long hair.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Think about the trashy low class women who like trashy low class men. Like they’ve got these super long nails, they’ve got these super large butt displays. They’ve got these really long hair.

Simone Collins: Yikes. Oh

Malcolm Collins: no.

And then consider the type of woman that say like, Elon goes after like a Grimes or something like that. You know, you’re looking at a smaller breast, shorter hair more of a sort of like. I, I, I guess I, I, I’d say the, the really, really classy look which can come off as a little boyish and has throughout recent history the, the very, very, like wealthy high-end woman typically comes off as a little puckish, I guess is the word I’d use.

You know, I’m, I’m thinking puck from the, you know, the, [00:28:00] the play, right? Like,

Simone Collins: oh yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And if you look at and

Simone Collins: the play amid Summer Night’s Dream

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Marry a woman who, or go after a woman who doesn’t look puckish it immediately. Other people call it out. They’re like, that is low class or weird looking, right?

Like when you see

Jeff Bezos, who’s his current partner, who looks like a street walking prostitute you immediately look at this and you’re like. Something is, something is off about that. But consider that Jeff Bezos is also breaking the other norm that we typically see with wealthy men, which is he is not going after the more ife, elite vampire look.

Either he’s going after the Buff Weightlifter look. If you look at another person who breaks this trend very famously as

Donald Trump, right? Like, he doesn’t break it as extremely as Jeff Bezos does, but a lot of people comment that Donald Trump. is a poor person’s idea of what a rich person wants to be like.

Right? Like, and [00:29:00] I think that he’s that way in everything from the way he architecturally does his house to the way that he does anything else. Right. But yeah. And this, this, I, I think, shows. An instinctual reaction of other people that, oh, they don’t really fit the pattern, but if you imagine like a, a Bruce Wayne Gala or something like that. Right. Yeah. And I’ve been to lots of like charity galas and stuff like that.

It is very common among upper class women to accentuate sort of short hair is very common among upper class hairstyles. In fact it wasn’t until we started appealing to a mainstream conservative audience that Simone Cut grew out her hair. Before that, because the core audience we were, everyone knows we, we did the circuit on like the secret societies and all of that.

It was fairly rare in those events for women to have longer hair. And so, you know, fitting in, that’s the crowd that we’re into. I, I personally find shorter hair more attractive on women. She kept her hair shorter. And then. When we [00:30:00] went to other of like, when we started appealing to you guys, who was it?

Brian Johnson was like, you should grow out your hair to appeal to it. More standard.

Simone Collins: No, Brian, Brian Kaplan.

Malcolm Collins: Brian Kaplan. Yeah. Brian Kaplan said,

Simone Collins: Brian Johnson don’t die. Brian Kaplan, selfish reasons to have more kids. Immigration is good. That kind

Malcolm Collins: of thing. Okay. Okay. So I’m pointing out that yes, our image is tailored for you guys.

I’m about to do a major image change, which I’m excited about as soon as the stuff gets in from messy to fit Simone’s more medieval style. I’ve learned, and this is really sad, I thought about doing an entire episode on it, is that my look right now, which is sort of the, I call it the Mr. Rogers look, which is just the, the nice normal guy look

Simone Collins: spitter.

Malcolm Collins: Unfortunately, it’s been co-opted by lesbians.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And I get too many comments,

Simone Collins: whatever. How dare they. They also took the leather jacket.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. So I also wear the leather jacket. It co-opted by lesbian.

Simone Collins: You can’t wear a leather jacket anymore.

You can’t wear a sweater anymore. Like what can you wear? Honestly,

Malcolm Collins: what I, I, I was trying to come off as [00:31:00] is is is just like the nice dad look. Right. Like the Mr. Rogers look. Right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: nope,

Simone Collins: without looking dumpy or s Sports Fanny.

Malcolm Collins: I think Ellen DeGeneres is the one who messed it all up. You know, crew cut sweater, you know.

Yeah, glasses. Everyone just immediately is like, oh, not Mr. Rogers. You’re Ellen DeGeneres.

Simone Collins: Oh, I, I was thinking more who’s the woman who is sure about Russiagate? Rachel Meadow.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s why I was thinking Rachel Maddow. Well, Ellen is Ellen DeGeneres another one who does that look

Simone Collins: kind of, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, I was thinking Rachel Maddow in my head when I said that.

Simone Collins: yeah. She and chunky glasses and short hair. Absolutely. Like. If I squint it, it looks a little, a little, little alchemy.

Malcolm Collins: But the point that I’m making here is that this exaggerated, like gender display is something that like societally we’ve known for a long time. Poor people prefer e exaggerated [00:32:00] gender dimorphic figures.

Mm-hmm. And wealthy people of boast, genders prefer more androgynous features.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And this could be an overlap, like women accidentally, ex ex displaying part of the male. Very interesting thing we did in our study on this is how much people of each gender get turned on imagining themselves as the opposite gender.

And wealthy women very frequently get turned on by imagining themselves.

Simone Collins: That’s true. That did show up in our survey data. That really surprised me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But interestingly. Poor males frequently get turned on by imagining themselves as females. So just fun data stuff here. I just love science. I love it.

I love the data. It’s fun. It’s fun to think about, like, why, why do you see this weird pattern? Why do you see this weird pattern? And as we’ve pointed out before, having one of these networks where like you are in the network and now all of a sudden you can’t tell anyone and you feel you have some sort of a connection with everyone else in this network, even if you were brought into it sort of [00:33:00] clandestinely.

Mm-hmm. Well, now of a sudden you have reasons to do, like if you meet someone in public, right? Somebody comes up for a job or an appointment or something and you’ve got one of two names, one of them, you know, from your parties, one of them you don’t know from your parties. You pick the name, you know, from your parties of, of course.

‘cause that’s safer, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Everyone prefers a known entity. Trust isn’t necessarily about liking, it’s about predicting. And the more exposure you have to someone, typically, the more you can predict them and therefore

Malcolm Collins: more you can trust. So now all of a sudden, everyone in this wider network moves up, moves up, moves up, moves up.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now let’s talk about the torture stuff, right? This, this is interesting as well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This was another thing that we found in terms of wealthy people. Wealthy high power men had more in terms of the aggression, dominance, pathway of arousal which makes sense. You know, you you’re more likely to be a raider, which is where that pathway is most relevant.

Absolutely. One, the things you need to remember about somebody, because the, I really like the torture videos that [00:34:00] freaked a lot of people out, right? Because they were like, why is this name black down stone? Should we be looking into this? And then people looked at who could it possibly be? Mm-hmm. There are three real candidates based on the time that the sender of that was in China.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Because the email didn’t include something about like, see you in China or It was great seeing

Malcolm Collins: you China. No, I’m in China now. I’m coming back to the US on these days. Okay. That the, the one of them was like a conservative, like Lindsey Graham or something, but he has no connection to Epstein, so unlikely.

Another one was some UK politician, the one who stepped down maybe,

Simone Collins: which one Who stepped down?

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I think the most likely one was Bill Gates.

Simone Collins: Well, and I recall there was some other email where they were like, was thinking about inviting, blanked out name to Epstein I Island, but basically like they lack the discretion or emotional intelligence or something that, which could be the same person who was like, Ooh, the torture.

I

Malcolm Collins: do torture.

Simone Collins: And like, I think maybe it, they, yeah, they had to kind of be careful about it.

Malcolm Collins: I can see, oh, that

Simone Collins: island where we do the, you know, [00:35:00] beep. Yeah. Hey mom,

Malcolm Collins: how long it, it immediately getting on air? Like going up like kid Rock did, after going to the Bohemian Grove, I remember, I’m always very buttoned about the Bohemian Grove.

He immediately does like this huge speech about the Bohemian Grove for like Vanity Fair or something like immediately. Oh, he went

Simone Collins: straight to the mainstream media about

Malcolm Collins: it? Yeah. He or might have been what, what is that? Rolling Stones. It might have been like a Rolling Stones. It’s like, did you not like get any of the memos about this

place?

I’m

Simone Collins: sure he was very enthused to never be invited back though. So he was,

Malcolm Collins: no, he got super, um. I can’t tell any of the stories about what happened to him there. Uh, No. He was not interested in not being invited back.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Uh, Drama. I, I, I’ll, I’ll point it this way. If you guys are like, the drama was not about anything sexual.

It is not about anything that you, the [00:36:00] general public would find scandalous. It is about

I wish I could say it because it’s so comedic to a mainstream conservative audience. You’d be like, wait, that’s what caused drama there.

Simone Collins: Damn, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I

Simone Collins: tease us.

Malcolm Collins: How do I I think. In high society when you’re used to hanging out with a lot of low society conservatives, you can forget how many there are.

And

Simone Collins: Oh

no,

Malcolm Collins: that can cause drama. I, I gotta cut that out. I can’t have that in there. That’s way too specific.

Simone Collins: Oh God. Oh, man.

That makes sense though.

Malcolm Collins: But the point being is, is at the grove itself, none of this stuff is happening. It’s, oh, and I even got up. If

Simone Collins: only

Malcolm Collins: I’ll describe like what does actually happen at The Grove. I got into with a number of people on like the top council of the Grove. Like we got together and we planned to [00:37:00] prank together.

So this is like me. Pranking was taught people at the Grove and we dressed up as deer and went through where there’s like security camera footage area

Simone Collins: oh, like, like hunting cams or animal cams?

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. It was like the, the cams for like people trying to sneak into the park or something, to like mess with like the guards or whatever.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: okay. This is, this is the type of, it’s the type of prank that somebody in a 1920s or thirties secret society on, like Harvard would’ve thought was hilarious.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s, or like boy Scouts, that’s, it’s like, it’s a little, it’s a little too adorable.

Malcolm Collins: It’s, yeah. It is, it is a, it is adorable old man pranks because that’s what it is.

It’s a place full of old men.

Simone Collins: Oh no. That’s too wholesome.

Malcolm Collins: It is, it is not. Whatever you’re imagining. It it, I mean obviously there’s a lot of gay stuff that goes on there that’s been reported since what, what president reported

Simone Collins: that Isn’t that Nixon,

Malcolm Collins: so I’m not leaking that. Yeah, Nixon. But like, that makes sense when you have a bunch of [00:38:00] like, wealthy conservatives meeting in, in secret that’s that’s

Simone Collins: without their wives.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, that is, that is the, as far as the salacious of environments like that go they are not these terrible, horrible things. And keep in mind on the Kid Rock stuff that I mentioned anything I heard there was just hearsay, I don’t know, idea of it directly. So, you know, don’t even say, oh, this definitely happened.

It’s

Simone Collins: allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,

Malcolm Collins: allegedly the rumors, nope. The, the, the, the point I am making is that you can build these networks that are like actually secret, like the Epstein Network actually doing bad things. And these can be used to skyrocket the career of everyone involved with these networks.

We used this to explain in an episode that we had to do for fans only because they had audio issues. In the second part, why the Trump administration is, has so many gay conservatives in it. There was a, a, a quote from like a conservative female influencer that was like, oh, I was really excited to hook my friends up with some new incoming members of the administration, you [00:39:00] know, now that well, they’re gay and they’re all gay.

And that, that’s happened because you can get sort of these networks where, well, we all know each other from the gay party and we have some degree of solidarity and, you know, you get invited to the party.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, I think a, a key distinguishing factor, I, I think between. Elite social networks that are innocuous or just coordinating and maybe a little bit insider trading, but not super evil demonic is.

How the influence is built. There’s sort of the carrot and the stick, and Epstein definitely built a stick based network built around blackmail or literally implicating people in things that were federal offenses. And we’ve seen the

Malcolm Collins: latest leak. Him threatening people with leaks.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That there, yeah, he’s, he’s threatening people with stuff that could get them in, like ruin their reputation.

Which, I mean, bill Gates spent what, billions of dollars on his public reputation. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Trying to look like a good boy.

Simone Collins: They’re

Malcolm Collins: his no work [00:40:00] was like, can you imagine how much money he spent, how much effort he spe